| Wednesday, January 21st, 2015, 00:36 UTC | ||
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| [01:54:52] | jheizer: | nice stuartm |
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| [05:51:12] | jpabq_: | gigem: if you want something very short & simple: Feed |
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| [08:50:34] | stuarta: | morning all |
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| [13:38:08] | stuarta: | ahah, somebody in the forums has pointed out that someone's already started working on SAT>IP server software which exposes existing cards via SAT>IP. Exactly what I was thinking of doing. |
| [13:38:22] | stuarta: | https://forum.mythtv.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&am . . . amp;start=15 https://github.com/catalinii/minisatip |
| [13:40:31] | stuarta: | that software certainly warrants investigation |
| [14:04:31] | stuartm: | any particular advantage to doing that instead of using a slave backend? |
| [14:05:33] | stuarta: | it will allow us to write support for sat>ip tuners |
| [14:05:50] | stuarta: | rather than spending £150 on a device |
| [14:06:01] | stuartm: | true |
| [14:06:23] | stuarta: | it's actually quite a nice way of accessing them. |
| [14:07:13] | stuartm: | just sounded a bit odd – writing a SAT>IP server in order to be able to write a SAT>IP client |
| [14:07:20] | stuarta: | hah |
| [14:07:40] | stuartm: | you face the same difficulties in writing a server without a client as you do writing a client without a server |
| [14:07:48] | stuarta: | well the other side of that is, in theory you could turn mythtv into a sat>ip server |
| [14:08:03] | stuarta: | well no, you can already get clients for android |
| [14:08:27] | stuarta: | tivizen does one, i already have it |
| [14:08:39] | stuarta: | just no server on the network |
| [14:09:04] | stuartm: | oh, didn't know that ... interesting |
| [14:09:09] | stuarta: | yeah |
| [14:11:04] | stuartm: | websocket stuff is coming along nicely, but I'm having similar difficulties – can't test all the features because browsers (the only available clients) don't expose them |
| [14:11:32] | stuarta: | you almost have to be the first to implement them, give somebody else a reference |
| [14:13:22] | stuartm: | sure someone has an implementation, but without DOM support, you simply can't presently send pings from a browser – seems to be by design, but I think that's a shame |
| [14:14:34] | stuartm: | instead the server has to send to initiate a ping, but that means I can't test how we handle receiving them, it's a minor detail overall but I like to be thorough |
| [14:20:24] | stuarta: | sometimes i wonder if some of the stuff like anjular.js would be of any use to us |
| [14:21:37] | stuartm: | kormoc talked about using it for templating the WebFrontend |
| [14:23:03] | stuartm: | personally, while I wouldn't prevent anyone doing it, the further you get from raw javascript the worse it gets – we use some jQuery but I'm of the opinion that instead of making javascript simpler it makes it much more complicated |
| [14:23:37] | stuarta: | you would know more than me about it |
| [14:24:02] | stuartm: | I'm not a JS fan to start with, and the whole idea of building pages etc in javascript on the client side sends shivers down my spine |
| [14:25:41] | stuarta: | apparently it's efficient. dunno if i believe them |
| [14:26:02] | stuartm: | it's quite possible that angular.js is cleaner/better than the mess which is jQuery, but I've not spent much time looking at it, switching out what we've got now with something else might be a worth long term goal but short-term I just want to get the WebFrontend working |
| [14:26:55] | stuarta: | i bought i book on jQuery once. it now lives in my bookcase with the other random computer books i've bought |
| [14:28:21] | stuartm: | stuarta: well this is the thing, 'efficient' as far as javascript goes is not quite the same as 'efficient' in C++ terms – I'm not sure I trust that doing the work on the client side in a scripting language, especially with very low power thin or mobile clients is more better than doing it on a reasonably powered backend in native code instead |
| [14:28:49] | stuartm: | the only advantage to doing it on the client is that updates use slightly less bandwidth |
| [14:29:14] | stuartm: | 'more better' |
| [14:29:33] | stuarta: | it's always a compromise, do you leverage server cpu or client cpu |
| [14:29:40] | ** stuartm needs to do more better at proofreading ** | |
| [14:30:46] | stuartm: | for the WebFrontend which isn't handling hundreds or thousands of clients at once, the backend usually has cycles to spare |
| [14:31:06] | stuarta: | agreed |
| [14:31:33] | stuarta: | it's not like we are scaling to 1000's of users |
| [14:31:48] | stuarta: | a few cycles here or there ain't gunna matter |
| [14:32:34] | stuartm: | anyway, one of the advantages of implementing websocket support is that I can 'push' changes to the client easily, so we already do some stuff on the client side – new recordings starting won't trigger a page reload, it will just insert the entry in the appropriate place on the page |
| [14:33:45] | stuarta: | i like the sound of what you've been doing. looking fwd to seeing it |
| [15:38:13] | stuartm: | bizarre that they'd set a maximum payload size for a single frame to something over 16 Petabytes |
| [15:38:31] | stuarta: | who what where? |
| [15:39:31] | stuartm: | websocket, header allows 64bits (unsigned) to express the size of the payload |
| [15:40:08] | stuarta: | that's *huge* and quite possibly ridiculous |
| [15:40:09] | stuartm: | that's a number of bytes so large that my brain hurts just thinking about it, and it makes no sense |
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| [15:41:43] | stuartm: | and that's per-frame, you can split a payload over multiple frames |
| [15:42:23] | stuarta: | that's even sillier, although i'm sure there is a use case for it |
| [15:44:16] | warpme: | stuarta: just my 0.02$ regarding satip clients: from various system scenarios best will be to have satip client exposing DVB adapter to client app. For sure it is more complicated than IP interface but such solution is only solution allowing to access encrypted content in countries when You can do this legally. |
| [15:44:58] | stuartm: | I think I'll place a 32KB limit on incoming payloads per frame, and maybe 256KB total payload size, seems most browsers split at 32KB and I can't imagine a scenario where we'd be expecting to receive large quantities of data from the client |
| [15:45:00] | stuarta: | not sure i grasp what you mean exactly? |
| [15:45:04] | stuarta: | warpme: ^^^ |
| [15:46:47] | stuarta: | warpme: are you talking about hardware based sat>ip devices with integrated CAM, and mythtv is a client for that? |
| [15:47:43] | warpme: | If I get it correctly satip server (small dedicated HW with phy tuners) can provide data stream to satip client via network. Possible scenario is mythtv will be satip client. In such case mythtv will receive IP stream from satip server (very similiary like HLS recorder). This is OK. |
| [15:48:03] | stuarta: | yes, that's one use case i'm considering |
| [15:48:12] | stuarta: | ie. another type of recorded |
| [15:48:16] | stuarta: | *recorder |
| [15:49:26] | warpme: | Alternative approach is that we will have following path: satip_srv->ip_network->satip_client->/dev/dvb->sat_app |
| [15:49:37] | stuarta: | no, that's horrible |
| [15:50:14] | warpme: | it is more complictated but has 2 benefits: 1\no any mods in sat_app; 2\support for encrypted TV |
| [15:50:31] | warpme: | 2\ ofcourse when it is legal |
| [15:50:57] | stuarta: | warpme: which one has those 2 benefits? direct client, or horrible client? |
| [15:52:51] | stuarta: | warpme: this -> https://code.google.com/p/satip/ looks like it already implements horrible client, by presenting sat>ip devices via vtuners |
| [15:53:01] | warpme: | horrible client :-). But if You look for max usablility from given programming effort – 'horrible' client is best |
| [15:54:00] | warpme: | as it allows to use satip for ANY DVB app without any mods... |
| [15:54:09] | stuarta: | i actually think the inverse is cleaner, run a daemon on the server with the cards that presents some or all of them via sat>ip |
| [15:54:41] | warpme: | sure. both approaches are OK. They differ only in universality.... |
| [15:54:53] | stuartm: | gigem: yes, it's true, he was moderated and there was a degree of irony to it |
| [15:54:59] | stuarta: | i can see sat>ip becoming more prevalent |
| [15:57:40] | warpme: | stuarta: I see. I was wrongly deducing that Your work will somehow related to myth ;-p |
| [15:59:09] | stuarta: | it would be. mythbackend could use sat>ip tuners like it can currently with things like hdhomerun |
| [16:01:23] | stuartm: | gigem: fwiw, I don't mind people having strong opinions, but at the time he was being disruptive to the list (IMHO) and unnecessarily aggressive in conveying that opinion – http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/563635 |
| [16:01:40] | warpme: | stuarta: can't dissagre. But writing satip->vtuner bridge will be much more universal.... |
| [16:02:10] | stuarta: | see that link, it appears to already be written |
| [16:02:41] | warpme: | something like this https://code.google.com/p/vtuner/wiki/BigPicture |
| [16:02:45] | stuarta: | however you still need hardware sat>ip devices for that, but i have none |
| [16:02:56] | stuarta: | https://code.google.com/p/satip/ |
| [16:03:54] | stuarta: | warpme: is that picture what you are thinking about? |
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| [16:07:22] | warpme: | stuarta: basically scenario where user has many SAT tuners near dish connected via SINGLE cable (eth) to remote backend. Physically it is exact analogy to benefits of unicable. |
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| [16:08:00] | stuarta: | sure |
| [16:08:40] | warpme: | key aspect is to access those tuners by dvb app WITHOUT any modifications in dvb app |
| [16:09:15] | warpme: | I must run now. See You later! |
| [16:09:34] | stuarta: | the pieces are there already by the looks of it |
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| [16:20:42] | gigem: | stuarta: Thanks. On this particular topic, for someone with absolutely no stake in writing nor maintaining the code, he does seem overly strong in his conviction. |
| [16:21:00] | stuarta: | stuartm: did you have any success with upnp inspector and master? |
| [16:21:10] | gigem: | stuartm: ^^^ |
| [16:22:29] | stuartm: | stuarta: upnp-inspector works fine with master here, although I had to patch some broken python libs first (known issue, fixed upstream) |
| [16:22:50] | stuarta: | hmm, okay, it's not finding anything here. must be local issue |
| [16:23:20] | stuartm: | stuarta: might be the issue I ran into, I should have the patch handy so you could check |
| [16:25:03] | stuartm: | gigem: he approaches a lot of issues the same way, and quite often with "I'm right, you're all wrong" attitude that does nothing to help his arguments |
| [16:25:11] | stuarta: | heh, the coherence trac has got bugs which are ancient just like us |
| [16:25:17] | stuarta: | 5yrs old |
| [16:28:56] | stuartm: | the irony I referred to before was that I moderated him after he accused developers of 'arrogance' (an irony in itself), but specifically because he was arguing that the ability to moderate a forum more easily than a mailing list was a bad thing |
| [16:29:38] | stuartm: | if he'd been posting on the forum I'd have just locked the topic, but because it was a mailing list the only option available was to moderate all his posts ... |
| [16:33:07] | stuartm: | he made some great arguments in that thread, such as the one about MythTV being a community and freedom of opinion was important to that community, unless you expressed that you wanted a another forum in which to express that opinion |
| [16:34:04] | stuartm: | anyway, long in the past |
| [16:43:09] | gigem: | :) |
| [16:44:49] | dekarl: | stuarta, a potential SAT>IP recorder will be of use only for free-to-air transmissions. for everyone else its Franken-Tuner-with-CAM/CI-USB-Thingy |
| [16:45:02] | dekarl: | I think thats what warpme was trying to point out |
| [16:45:47] | stuarta: | what? nobody is making a sat>ip server that takes a CAM/smartcard? |
| [16:48:18] | dekarl: | the consumer crypto must be done in the client |
| [16:49:28] | dekarl: | basically SAT>IP just replaces the coax cable with an IP cable. You stick the CAM Module (if one is available at all) into your TV and insert your smart card. Do the pairing dance and maybe you can watch the stuff you pay for ;) |
| [16:49:30] | stuarta: | right, yes that makes sense for apartment complexes |
| [16:49:52] | stuarta: | now i understand what he was talking about |
| [16:50:05] | gary_buhrmaster: | dekarl: Does that mean the that client is expected to implement a "protected path" (i.e. WMC)? |
| [16:50:35] | dekarl: | gary_buhrmaster: for CI+ of course, for Plain-old-CI no |
| [16:51:47] | dekarl: | gary_buhrmaster: in theory one could build a box like the Prime, but I haven't heard of one yet |
| [16:54:09] | stuarta: | dekarl: so the other option i was thinking about, is having the backend present as a sat>ip server. that way, if you have a free tuner, you can watch tv via the backend |
| [16:54:31] | dekarl: | stuarta, having both would be risky |
| [16:55:11] | stuarta: | not really, i have no problem supporting sat>ip hardware like it's a hdhomerun |
| [16:55:29] | stuarta: | so those with free broadcasts can use it as another tuner |
| [16:55:43] | dekarl: | you could insert MythTV between SAT>IP server and client to virtualize the physical tuners, leading to lots of new users who need support for a, for us, foreign use case |
| [16:56:20] | stuarta: | hmm, it could lead to that, which is ugly |
| [16:58:57] | stuarta: | dekarl: you have some free channels on satellites |
| [16:59:03] | stuarta: | covering germany? |
| [16:59:41] | MythBuild: | build #1 of 027candidates-f21-qt5–64bit is complete: Success [3build successful] Build details are at http://code.mythtv.org/buildbot/builders/027c . . . bit/builds/1 |
| [17:02:48] | dekarl: | stuarta, germany is the land of the freetv, paytv is very slowly getting a grip on some markets (via triple and more play providers) and via the HD fee of the satelite themselves |
| [17:03:29] | dekarl: | broadcasting companies themselves ruined the paytv market, but its being fixed |
| [17:06:17] | ** stuarta re-reads the original forum request ** | |
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| [17:08:22] | stuarta: | so it's literally, do we support http://www.inverto.tv/products/product.php?se . . . 4&cat=99 |
| [17:11:04] | dekarl: | I understood it more as a "are you prepared for the attractive price per tuner leading to lead to lots of interest in SAT>IP soon" |
| [17:11:50] | dekarl: | the product was just one with a very nice price |
| [17:13:10] | dekarl: | also the satelite dish/lnb having an GigE interface, cutting out all the icky analogue stuff, is attractive, too |
| [17:13:41] | stuarta: | yeah, i think adding client support to the backend to treat it like a network tuner would be the best |
| [17:13:59] | stuarta: | and those who need frakentuners can go the vtuner route |
| [17:15:03] | stuarta: | which brings me back to where i was before, having to write a server, in order to test the client |
| [17:16:42] | dekarl: | EUR 330 for 8 tuners in an LNB... so about EUR 40 per tuner and thats it, no DiSEqC switches, no DVB cards, no LNB. And only one cable for everything instead of four to the switch and one per tuner to the consumers. |
| [17:17:13] | stuarta: | yeah, it's attractive for multi consumer installs, like apartment blocks |
| [17:17:24] | dekarl: | http://www.inverto.tv/products/product.php?id=264&typ=2 |
| [17:17:34] | stuarta: | yep |
| [17:20:13] | stuartm: | well two cables, unless it's POE |
| [17:20:19] | dekarl: | fwiw, we already support them with the MPEG2TS over HTTP patch. Just create one playlist per tuner, setup one IPTV recorder per tuner with that playlist. Just need to use XMLTV for your guide as I've not yet finished the EIT over IPTV hack |
| [17:21:35] | dekarl: | stuartm, its PoE and you can always plug the power cable into an outlet close to the dish, instead of running a dedicated wire to the basement. "Power-over-Ethernet Type I, less than 10W for 8-channel operation" (from the last link) |
| [17:21:53] | stuartm: | I quite like the concept, but getting power to the device would be the tricky part |
| [17:23:44] | dekarl: | I still don't understand how the "IPTV multicast headend" mode works, where you have some tuners broadcasting multicasts and some others being used for the one-off channels. That sounds quite cool |
| [17:25:21] | stuarta: | stuartm: PoE is standard for this sort of thing |
| [17:25:44] | stuarta: | dekarl: i think it's an either or thing, either unicast or multicast |
| [17:26:27] | stuarta: | dekarl: and for the EIT, i'm thinking we should in theory just be able to subscribe to the EIT pids |
| [17:28:09] | ** stuarta heads off for a while ** | |
| [17:28:11] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: Ah, but PoE is so much fun. At least this device specifies the IEEE standard. There are a lot of non-standard PoE "standards". |
| [17:28:19] | stuarta: | heh |
| [17:29:09] | MythBuild: | build #32 of 027candidates-ubuntu-12_04-lts-64bit is complete: Failure [4failed git_1] Build details are at http://code.mythtv.org/buildbot/builders/027c . . . it/builds/32 blamelist: Stuart Auchterlonie <stuarta@squashedfrog.net > |
| [17:34:52] | dekarl: | oh my, looking at the SAT>IP vendor's sites was a crap idea.. now I know that Unicable II is coming ;) |
| [17:35:57] | dekarl: | stuarta, I understood it as either/or per tuner. having a setup with multiple SAT>IP servers makes the signalling "interesting" |
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| [17:45:50] | MythBuild: | build #32 of 027candidates-debian-wheezy-64bit is complete: Failure [4failed git] Build details are at http://code.mythtv.org/buildbot/builders/027c . . . it/builds/32 blamelist: Stuart Auchterlonie <stuarta@squashedfrog.net > |
| [17:52:31] | MythBuild: | build #33 of 027candidates-ubuntu-12_04-lts-64bit is complete: Success [3build successful] Build details are at http://code.mythtv.org/buildbot/builders/027c . . . it/builds/33 |
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| [18:10:56] | MythBuild: | build #33 of 027candidates-debian-wheezy-64bit is complete: Success [3build successful] Build details are at http://code.mythtv.org/buildbot/builders/027c . . . it/builds/33 |
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| [18:44:24] | jheizer: | I just hit a rather peculiar bug with MythFrontend. In live tv I went to switch from an HDHR device to an HDPVR and I ended up on the main menu with a distorted live tv playing in the background. |
| [18:44:57] | jheizer: | Nothing I haven't done a hundred times before on remote frontends, but almost never on my master backend. |
| [18:51:03] | stuartm: | ffs, spent far too much time debugging why a simple byte array to integer conversion was failing, just spotted that I'd accidentally converted the bytes to a hex string representation a few lines earlier, a change which was supposed to have been applied only where it was displayed in the logs |
| [18:53:13] | stuartm: | just couldn't understand how I was getting nonsensical values out |
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| [19:31:04] | dekarl: | stuarta, already playes around with that http://paste.ubuntu.com/9809006/ |
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| [19:54:16] | dekarl: | stuarta, if you like a good puzzle. we could get the EIT from the DVB part of the OTT channels, but the actual streams from the HTTP part of the channels |
| [20:07:18] | stuarta: | dekarl: yes something like that is what i had in mind |
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| [21:17:31] | stuarta: | i'm clearly not cut out to be a web developer, i've tried reading the angular.js tutorial, and it just makes my head hurt |
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| [22:01:00] | dekarl: | stuarta, nice the latest spec (2015-01–08) decuments DVB-C signalling http://www.satip.info/sites/satip/files/resou . . . on_1_2_2.pdf |
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| [22:10:17] | stuarta: | ooo |
| [22:12:25] | dekarl: | stuarta, lookting at appendix A reminds me that we already support manually configured SAT>IP servers when their playlist consists of rtsp links, with one patch we also support the http links |
| [22:14:58] | dekarl: | We already support these playlists... https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/ef4da . . . bcd0c8580f41 a |
| [22:15:02] | dekarl: | and https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/a5fa3 . . . 0362abc0dc5a |
| [22:15:21] | stuarta: | that's an update, i already had v1.2, now v1.2.2 |
| [22:15:51] | dekarl: | aye, that's why I pointed it out after seeing that its less then two weeks old |
| [22:16:00] | stuarta: | thanks |
| [22:16:38] | dekarl: | http://www.satip.info/sites/satip/files/resou . . . on_1_2_2.txt <- mentions the DVB-C and playlist location signalling additions |
| [22:16:50] | stuarta: | since we already support the bulk of it, adding the device discovery to setup shouldn't be *that* hard |
| [22:17:40] | dekarl: | well, we can commit the http transport patch and some kind of "iptv recorder for SAT>IP auto configurator" special channel scanner |
| [22:18:21] | dekarl: | but there's lots of other nice stuff, like swtiching to the next server in the stack, doing the channel scan ourselves instead of just loading the playlist |
| [22:18:36] | stuarta: | yeah, that should be very do-able |
| [22:19:16] | dekarl: | and IPTV with dynamic PMT / multirec (follow up requests with addpids/rempids) |
| [22:19:33] | stuarta: | exactly |
| [22:19:55] | dekarl: | just getting the playlist working in an easy to setup way (no channel scan!) would be a nice start |
| [22:20:59] | stuarta: | indeed, first step on the way |
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