| Sunday, September 7th, 2014, 00:04 UTC | ||
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| [02:12:42] | rkulagow_: | dekarl: did you have a question regarding the JSON structure? |
| [02:13:00] | rkulagow_: | ah, crap. brb |
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| [15:02:47] | jafa2: | hi guys, we are testing a new HDHomeRun unit in Germany... not seeing virtual channel numbers on DVB-T or DVB-C... |
| [15:03:19] | jafa2: | does Germany use virtual channel numbers? |
| [15:31:01] | stuartm: | you mean 2.1 etc? Then no, DVB doesn't share that concept with ATSC |
| [15:31:41] | stuartm: | but I suspect that's not what you meant, since this isn't the first DVB HDHomeRun |
| [15:33:07] | stuartm: | oh, Wikipedia tells me you mean the Logical Channel Number (LCN) as it's known in the DVB world |
| [15:33:23] | stuartm: | dekarl: can you answer the man's question? |
| [15:38:11] | jafa2: | other DVB countries I see virtual channel numbers in the NIT |
| [15:39:46] | jafa2: | using a logical channel descriptor |
| [15:40:04] | jafa2: | not seeing any logical channel descriptors in Germany |
| [15:40:41] | stuartm: | yes, that's what I would expect, I've not heard anyone say that they aren't present in Germany but dekarl lives there and can give a definitive answer |
| [15:56:44] | stuartm: | jafa2: descriptor ID 0x83? |
| [15:58:36] | stuartm: | seems Nordig also have some numbering info in 0x87 |
| [16:00:15] | stuartm: | what they are calling logical_channel_descriptor (Version 2), will have to dig into that one for MythTV (NorDig is Scandinavia, not Germany) |
| [16:03:00] | jafa2: | ok, checking... |
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| [16:09:12] | jafa2: | we normally check for 0x83 |
| [16:09:38] | jafa2: | NIT only contains tags 0x41 0x5a 0x62 and 0x6d |
| [16:18:53] | stuartm: | all standard stuff :/ |
| [16:38:33] | jafa2: | yep |
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| [16:40:51] | stuartm: | they may still carry the information in a private descriptor in the SDT for example |
| [16:42:35] | stuartm: | but there's no code in MythTV to parse a channel number out of one, which I'd expect there to be if it existed, we've had a couple of active German devs working on the DVB side of things, it would be odd for them to overlook anything like that |
| [16:44:13] | jafa2: | only tag in sdt is 0x48 like normal |
| [16:44:37] | jafa2: | wondering how TVs match channel numbers in Germany |
| [16:45:49] | stuartm: | jafa2: I know some networks handle it in firmware, since the firmware updates are OTA they can do that |
| [16:46:38] | stuartm: | although those are all STBs, there are too many models of TV for it to be practical |
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| [18:14:56] | stuartm: | dblain: I'm thinking about the issue of marking stuff as deprecated in the API through the WSDL, as you've noted before there appears to be no official mechanism, so how about just sticking that info into a wsdl:document tag? It won't be automatically parsed and understood by existing WSDL parsers, but it should be seen by developers looking at the wsdl |
| [18:15:59] | stuartm: | that also leads me to another question I had about using wsdl:document to include documentation for each service and method, as it's designed for |
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| [19:29:00] | stuarta: | jafa2: can you pastebin the output from a dvbsnoop for NIT (assuming you can get that) |
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| [19:36:53] | dblain: | stuartm: using wsdl::document tag is fine, but how would the code that generates it know a method is deprecated? Where would it pull the descriptions from? I really wish MOC offered some sort of extensibility. (I've always fallen back to using Q_CLASSINFO, but it's not the best from a design perspective.) |
| [19:38:34] | stuartm: | dblain: I hadn't worked that bit out yet, but I figure there has to be a way to do it (optimistic) |
| [19:39:38] | dblain: | stuartm: I've been trying to avoid creating our own preprocessor, or modifying MOC. There's so much we could do if we did! |
| [19:39:49] | stuartm: | failing that we just keep the wiki updated and developers will have to regularly check there for updates, not ideal but ... |
| [19:40:45] | stuartm: | dblain: it would be a lot of work, and right now we should probably focus on other goals |
| [19:41:16] | dblain: | BTW: I'm already populating the wsdl::document element with a description of the class (taken from a Q_CLASSINFO entry) |
| [19:41:19] | stuartm: | maybe once 0.28 is out it's the sort of thing we might think about |
| [19:41:48] | dblain: | completely agree, plus I wanted this to work with plain QT |
| [19:42:27] | dblain: | I walked the source of MOC hoping to find a way to add metadata to individual methods, but ultimately couldn't find any. |
| [19:46:10] | stuartm: | dblain: what about overriding the REVISION arg of Q_PROPERTY, can we access that when building the wsdl? |
| [19:47:39] | stuartm: | i.e. a value of -1 indicates a DEPRECATED arg |
| [19:47:46] | stuartm: | err, method |
| [19:48:41] | dblain: | I'm looking at it now... it may allow for a deprecated property of a data class, but Q_PROPERTY isn't used at the method level. |
| [19:49:05] | stuartm: | right of course (long day) |
| [19:50:03] | stuartm: | and it won't help with deprecated method arguments, which is what started me looking at this again – I'm converting several endpoints to support use of 'recordedid' in place of 'chanid' and 'starttime' |
| [19:50:21] | stuartm: | with the idea that eventually we'd remove the chanid/starttime args entirely |
| [19:50:26] | dblain: | QMetaProperty doesn't list a means to retrieve the REVISON... I'd have to research how to get access to it. |
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| [19:52:19] | stuartm: | dblain: maybe we'll leave it alone then, since it would only cover some stuff (members vars/properties) and not methods, or args it's of limited use |
| [19:52:34] | dblain: | stuartm: it would be nice to have a long term approach to handling things like this in the future, but, with the changes I need to make for enums and all the recordedid changes, it might be easiest to break compatibility and have a clean start? (I hate to do it, and if we did, I think we would need to have a complete, clean API design that would remain stable long term... can't keep breaking |
| [19:52:34] | dblain: | the API) |
| [19:52:49] | stuartm: | plain old hand written documentation might have to suffice |
| [19:54:57] | dblain: | We can add it using the Q_CLASSINFO macro, like I do for put/get , but it's not intuitive. i.e. Q_CLASSINFO( "GetRecording_method", "GET;DEPRECATED" ) // or we can add more elaborate information about specific arguments) |
| [19:57:46] | stuartm: | for now something based on Q_CLASSINFO seems the easiest solution, and if we do find that there are things that could be done better we can design API 2.0 at a later date to run alongside v 1.0 for a time |
| [19:59:04] | stuarta: | for some reason i read that as Q_CLASSIFIED.... |
| [20:00:20] | dblain: | :) |
| [20:14:12] | stuartm: | does anyone know what purpose the GetFileList Delete/Get/RenameFile methods in the Content service serve? |
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| [20:36:56] | stuartm: | they are far too broad in scope and I'm not sure what purpose they serve, e.g. deleting a recording, video, music etc via them will leave the database in an inconsistent state |
| [20:38:25] | stuartm: | and if the user creates a storage group pointing at directory containing files unrelated to mythtv, and runs without a firewall, then a malicious individual could download or delete those |
| [20:39:39] | ** stuarta declares that user stupid ** | |
| [20:41:31] | stuartm: | true, but when it all goes pear shaped we'll be the ones who get the blame, and not without good reason, with those methods we're basically inviting people to abuse it |
| [20:42:58] | stuartm: | I've already talked myself into removing them, there are safe equivalents for Recordings, Video and Music, and we can create new safe methods for any other stuff that people want to be able to download/delete in a storage group |
| [20:44:43] | stuartm: | methods which simply take a 'storagegroup' and 'filename' are dumb |
| [20:50:56] | stuartm: | may fault they exist in the first place it seems, they were part of the infamous Image Gallery patch from Robert Siebert that I committed. |
| [20:53:52] | stuartm: | my |
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| [21:05:25] | dekarl: | hmm, to late...jafa2, actually a good question, on DVB-T all I ever saw was the service_id used as channel number. |
| [21:06:32] | dekarl: | but we don't do virtual channel numbers, that's a US thing where other things like the call signs of the transmission channel are more prominent. |
| [21:09:12] | stuarta: | dekarl: out of interest, do the service id's match what is considered the normal channel number for that channel? |
| [21:13:34] | dekarl: | stuarta: no, its more or less all across the 16bit space |
| [21:14:40] | dekarl: | makes debugging interesting... when you have service_id + video source number * 1000 as default channel id... |
| [21:15:24] | dekarl: | and both the service_ids go >999 and video sources are 5 and 7 ;) |
| [21:17:21] | stuarta: | wonder how they do it then? UK has it's own descriptor just for this |
| [21:18:04] | dekarl: | the cable providers have their closed platforms with private data, but I wonder how its ment to work on DVB-T |
| [21:19:40] | dekarl: | maybe that explains why everyone has a different channel list. |
| [21:19:55] | stuarta: | sounds like it |
| [21:20:30] | stuartm: | stuarta: not exactly our own, same descriptor has been adopted all over Europe, just not in Germany apparently |
| [21:20:47] | dekarl: | I never cared much for pre-Myth-TV and now I don't care as I don't LiveTV :D |
| [21:21:46] | stuartm: | I've got Nordig documentation which shows they used the same descriptor, but also broadcast another one for the same purpose at 0x87, intend to read up on that one to see if it's something we want to implement support for |
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| [21:24:42] | dekarl: | stuartm, just looking at it... 0x83 is for DVB-T and 0x87 for DVB-C/S/T. looks like that's the difference |
| [21:26:08] | dekarl: | the 0x87 should be used, but I don't find any difference in the Rules of Operation 1.0 |
| [21:26:10] | stuartm: | well they label it as Logical channel descriptor (Version 2), the one at 0x83 is (Version 1), so I'm wondering whether there's an implementation difference, or additional info included |
| [21:26:49] | stuartm: | dekarl: cool, well I'll look at it myself in the morning as I'm busy with other things currently |
| [21:27:43] | dekarl: | linkage_type EPG service sounds interesting, reminds me of https://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/11809 |
| [21:30:23] | stuartm: | while glancing at the docs I was reminded that I wanted to do something with the parental rating descriptor, I'd thought about implementing a system that prevents certain frontends (think kids rooms) from watching anything flagged by EIT or xmltv as inappropriate for children |
| [21:32:30] | dekarl: | hmm, like assign the rating to our 4 categories? |
| [21:32:45] | dekarl: | a default mapping would be nice |
| [21:35:25] | stuarta: | stuartm: the whole (parental) security model needs work iirc |
| [21:37:51] | stuartm: | well the parental level descriptor specifies ages from 4 through 18, so it could be very specific which would be neat, or we just map it to a narrower set of pre-defined levels along with whatever xmltv uses and typical 'film' rating levels |
| [21:38:28] | stuartm: | stuarta: well it doesn't exist at all for recordings, and for videos it's not very user friendly IMHO, too primitive |
| [21:39:18] | stuartm: | a unified model which can be applied to videos, recordings, music and images would be great |
| [21:39:55] | dekarl: | xmltv uses "whatever the datasource can provide" ;) |
| [21:40:18] | dekarl: | may be FSK style age suggestions, may be MPAA style letter combinations |
| [21:43:40] | stuartm: | dekarl: ahh yeah, now I remember |
| [21:44:06] | stuartm: | that's why we don't do anything with it, you can't know every possible system it might use |
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| [21:52:43] | dekarl: | stuartm, germany has age limit, austria (cinema) has age limits, france has age limits, UK has age lmits, italy has age limits, japan, too |
| [21:54:02] | dekarl: | ^- going through https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altersfreigabe looks like almost all ratings have age limits in years with some exceptions |
| [21:55:19] | dekarl: | looks like "free for all", "free for pre-school", "something around 12", "something around 16" and "18+" are common ages across europe |
| [21:55:45] | stuartm: | dekarl: right, but what I meant was that since xmltv doesn't suggest something to standardise on and the grabbers just return whatever happens to be used locally, MythTV would have to maintain a huge list of rating systems and mappings to our own internal system, which just isn't practical |
| [21:56:34] | dekarl: | stuartm, hmm extending the schema to system+rating+rating_in_years could be done |
| [21:56:45] | stuartm: | it would have been better if XMLTV defined their own format, perhaps based on minimum ages (since that's fairly easy to do) |
| [21:57:37] | dekarl: | yes, but "don't let the kids watch it alone" (in variant for all ages) appears to be common, too. |
| [21:57:47] | stuartm: | something like PG (parental guidance) is trickier to judge in age terms |
| [21:58:18] | dekarl: | oh my, why did I do that work, its all nicely graphed on the english page :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_picture_ . . . m#Comparison |
| [21:59:13] | dekarl: | another factor is "is it legally binding or just a strong suggestion" for cinemas, not sure if its a big thing for tv |
| [22:00:13] | dekarl: | oh my "Children over 6 can watch "FSK 12" rated movies under parental surveillance." |
| [22:00:40] | stuartm: | dekarl: we've a similar 12A rating |
| [22:00:42] | dekarl: | I knew there would be a reason why we don't have a standard to express the ratings... no one cared enough :) |
| [22:01:11] | poptix- (poptix-!poptix@poptix.net) has joined #mythtv | |
| [22:01:54] | stuartm: | whatever we implement doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough, with 'advised' ratings parent's can override to let kids watch stuff (which they almost certainly shouldn't be watching) |
| [22:02:37] | dekarl: | good point, when parents are their they can just enable the higher age limit. |
| [22:02:44] | stuartm: | parents who enable the parental controls will probably be the ones who care most about not letting kids see this stuff, and they'd rather stuff was blocked by default |
| [22:02:45] | dekarl: | s/their/there/ |
| [22:03:31] | dekarl: | I'm thinking about implementing it, too. But more as a filter so the girls don't have to scroll 2000 random movies to find their series |
| [22:04:04] | dekarl: | might just to the barcodes on boxes user interface instead :D |
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| [22:36:46] | stuartm: | that's one reason I group but category |
| [22:36:48] | stuartm: | by |
| [22:38:33] | stuartm: | tbh, having organised recordings differently in upnp I've considered re-factoring pbb entirely, doing away with the current two-list approach and using a tree, with 'By Title', 'By Genre' etc root nodes |
| [22:39:45] | stuartm: | but that's a huge change, best left for the next release and only once I've upgraded my flame proof suit |
| [22:41:35] | stuartm: | particularly with season and episode information now in the database (for some regions), having a tree with Series > Season > Episode makes sense |
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| [23:33:06] | dblain: | Why does it seem like every licensing company wants a minimum of $10,000 for specs (Was looking into DTCP-IP for encrypted streams from the HDHomeRun Prime) |
| [23:34:47] | dblain: | Then you need an approved encryption for storage and playback ... guess encrypted support for us would be +$50,000 once all the pieces were in place... assuming we could get over the whole "open source" issue :( |
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| [23:53:41] | stuartm: | cartel pricing, keeps the number of new entrants to a particular market to a minimum |
| [23:54:13] | stuartm: | not that $10,000 is a more than loose change for most companies, even startups |
| [23:56:19] | dblain: | Frustrating since the choices to view the channels I pay for has decreased to Microsoft Media Center (expecting this to be discontinues soon), ps3 (no dvr), and a cable box. |
| [23:58:48] | dblain: | guess more work needs to be done with the windows build. tried to watch live tv and it's throwing an exception in mpegstreamdata.cpp (vector index out of bounds) |
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