| Wednesday, March 26th, 2014, 00:49 UTC | ||
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| [01:45:32] | jmusits: | stuartm: I heard you might be the person to talk to about getting my bearings regarding adding some new functionality to MythNetvision...is what I hear true? |
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| [08:44:38] | stuarta: | morning all |
| [08:52:25] | stuartm: | jmusits: 'fraid not, I've only touched it to fix bugs spotted by static analysis |
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| [09:12:09] | stuarta: | stuartm: sorry that was me suggesting that |
| [09:13:01] | stuarta: | jmusits: i think nobody specific owns it at this time, the original developer has left the project, so i think any contributions would be welcome |
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| [10:16:18] | gary_buhrmaster: | jmusits: Last I knew, Amazon Instant Video (like NetFlix) used silverlight DRM, or, as an alternative, Adobe Flash DRM. However, the HAL needed for the Adobe Flash DRM is deprecated/removed (depending on distro), and (in general) Adobe Flash is on its way out. There are (documented in the usual places) way to bypass/workaround the various DRM restrictions, but, just as NetFlix says to Linux users, Amazon is basically saying to Linux users (t |
| [10:17:11] | gary_buhrmaster: | jmusits: I would love to hear Amazon has "seen the light" and removed the various DRM restrictions on their content. But, alas, I suspect it has not happened. |
| [10:23:59] | stuartm: | it uses Silverlight and therefore cannot be used on linux |
| [10:25:19] | stuartm: | they don't even support Android devices (just the Kindle Fire) |
| [10:26:34] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: Well, a sideload of the apk can fix that for some devices...... (I am just sayin....) |
| [10:27:35] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: But, yes, Amazon has been using the instant video hook to push their Kindle android devices. |
| [10:28:07] | stuartm: | gary_buhrmaster: interesting, didn't know about that – only just cancelled the streaming portion of my LoveFilm account because they'd finally split it out from the dvd rental subscription |
| [10:28:32] | stuartm: | resented paying for something I couldn't use :) |
| [10:29:54] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: Do not blame you (since I get Amazon Instant Video for "free" (I am a Prime member; the two day (one day for a lot of stuff now that they have a warehouse so near) shipping is too great to pass up) I do not mind "paying" for it). |
| [10:30:59] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: The sideload of the apk only (easily) worked on a few devices. I saw documentation on one site that showed how to make other changes to expand the usefulness. |
| [10:32:33] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: Of course, most of the fixes required root (although, since I only purchased google dev phones, that is a given). |
| [10:34:37] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: After I never actually used the amazon video app on my first phone, I never bothered to try to install it on the later one. |
| [10:45:32] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: I have to admit that while I dislike DRM restricting my freedom to access my (rented) content wherever I want (including Linux), I have decided that life is too short to constantly fight that battle (I support others like the EFF that does), and since I choose not to intentionally use methods to bypass IP licenses/restrictions, when I watch NetFlix/Amazon Instant Video, I just use my Smart TV (or power on the Windows box that exists in |
| [10:59:02] | stuarta: | i beleive we can sum that up with "sigh" |
| [11:11:24] | stuartm: | yeah, I've decided that I'm not anti-drm, just against drm that prevents me using/viewing the stuff I've legal purchased or subscribed to on the devices that I wish to use |
| [11:14:09] | stuartm: | i.e. I don't side with those who pirate games because the developer chose to use DRM ... that sort of argument makes no sense at all to me, and just seems to be a lousy excuse for doing something that people know to be wrong |
| [11:17:15] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: I believe that often I need to move on to "sigh"-assist (sorry, a very bad IBM mainframe joke). |
| [11:21:21] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: I am not sure that people "know it to be wrong". The "sharing society", where everything, including how long you were in the bathroom and if it was a #1 or a #2, is now shared, means some really do seem to believe that everything is free, and open, and we are all better off for it. |
| [11:21:21] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/1 ** | |
| [11:21:21] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/2 ** | |
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| [11:28:19] | ** stuarta attaches gary_buhrmaster to a zSeries and drops him off the nearest bridge ** | |
| [11:28:25] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: Content (yours, mine, Sting's) is just something else to share freely and widely with no expectations of compensation or return. If everyone contributes, everyone wins. Why should one not share the latest copy of "TitanFall" (is that not the latest game? I am not a gamer). |
| [11:29:46] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: Ah, you knew the reference. That dates you. |
| [11:30:02] | stuarta: | not completely |
| [11:30:19] | stuarta: | i just run into zSeries every now and again |
| [11:34:45] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: "Ouch". (Depending on model, they are big, and heavy, and do not move when you run into them...) |
| [11:35:17] | stuartm: | if only it was possible to live on content alone that might be a workable model :) |
| [11:35:48] | stuarta: | gary_buhrmaster: even the small ones are big |
| [11:36:07] | stuarta: | and dammit, people are still buying them |
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| [11:38:46] | stuartm: | not much of a gamer myself, and dumb "shoot everything in sight repeatedly" console games like Titan Fall (saw a review on the BBC news) don't interest me at all, but if you ever read the comments after reviews of games or even news items about games, they'll be full of people saying something like "DRM sucks! Don't want it on my system, guess I'll just get the game off bittorrent instead" |
| [11:39:14] | stuartm: | and sadly, they are usually saying it without a trace of irony |
| [11:40:18] | stuartm: | fact is that DRM for games rarely prevents you using the game on your own systems, even on linux (native or via wine), it's not a form of DRM that gets in the way of using the product like say drm on video or music |
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| [11:53:12] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: Re: living on content: I believe some would say "If only your faith was strong enough...". Of course, many of those that are saying that have something to sell you. And for only $19.95, plus shipping and handling, we can ship you your guide to better living..... |
| [11:53:52] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: So you do not forget, order before midnight tonight. |
| [11:54:46] | stuarta: | payment preferred in unmarked bills, in a brown envelope ;-p |
| [11:55:01] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: Re: z series. Even the largest ones are tiny compared to the "legacy" mainframes. |
| [11:55:28] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: Non-consecutively numbered bills? |
| [11:55:28] | stuarta: | i'm glad i've never had to deal with them |
| [11:55:46] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: Or a voucher for bitcoins with Mt. Gox? |
| [11:56:47] | stuarta: | i see your worthless payment, and whack you with a cluebat |
| [12:02:01] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: re: zSeries. They (well, their predecessors) could be fun. My "stress testing" of an early version of a HPPI mainframe to mainframe connection (impressive for its time) managed to essentially end an entire departments existence, since I could build test cases to break it faster than they could fix it. |
| [12:02:46] | stuarta: | hehe |
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| [12:02:51] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: I never got the hardware specs, but I figured out that if I was building it, I would might do <x>, and then decided to see if they handed that case well. |
| [12:03:02] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: They did not. |
| [12:03:35] | stuarta: | typical simple programming. it will do this, and it kinda does, any deviation from "this" ENOTHANDLED |
| [12:04:06] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: Same for the software side. Eventually IBM took some of my test cases and just ran them as part of their hardware and software regression testing. Better to handle it internally than let me open APARS. |
| [12:04:26] | stuarta: | yep |
| [12:05:07] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: Of course, for the software, I sent them the fixes too. It was easier for us all. |
| [12:06:45] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: What was (sort of) sad was that I knew some of their HW engineers, and if they had let them write test cases, they would have found the same things too (EE types are evil. because Murhpy was an optimist). But since it was software, only the software guys were developing the software tests. |
| [12:07:16] | stuarta: | internal politics |
| [12:12:46] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: Yeah. And bad politics. I have a (sort of?) bad attitude that says if you can not build it (at least in theory), you can not really understand it. |
| [12:13:32] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: (they theory part is that I do not have access to a $8 billion dollar fab to create a 14nm chip, but I do understand the processes). |
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| [12:22:24] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: I also do not like "magic" solutions (well, if we add in this no-op here, the code works....), but I admit to having woken up in the middle of the night at saying to myself that I can fix the random memory fetch issue by replacing "that" trace with a wire that is just a little bit longer (can you say timing glitch?). |
| [12:48:09] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuarta: To be fair, I have not regularly "done" hardware in quite some time, but one never forgets one's roots (or one's first root prompt via a constructed buffer overflow?) |
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| [13:13:54] | jmusits: | gary_buhrmaster: stuartm: regarding Amazon Instant Video & DRM I'v definitely streamed content to my *nix box without issues (via a web browser)...no Silverlight there |
| [13:14:57] | jmusits: | possibly something is different if you are running outside a browser? anyways I think I should have some time to do some initial research on the feasibility in the next couple of weeks |
| [13:25:08] | gary_buhrmaster: | jmusuts: As I said, Adobe Flash DRM also work(ed) in some browsers, but the HAL it requires is being (has been?) removed from all distros, and Adobe Flash for Linux is (near) EOS/EOL (Chrome Flash has been supported a bit longer). |
| [13:26:08] | gary_buhrmaster: | jmusits: But there may be various legitimate workarounds. And there is certainly interest. Please keep people informed. |
| [13:27:50] | jmusits: | gary_buhrmaster: my apologies, I didn't read things close enough, still on my first cup of coffee ;) |
| [13:28:40] | jmusits: | gary_buhrmaster: will do, thanks for the info |
| [13:35:58] | caelor: | jmusits – if its silverlight based, then looking into the use of "pipelight" for the mythbrowser might be the best approach. AFAICT, its a wine wrapper around the Silverlight browser plugin, providing a plugin that can be used in linux based browsers. |
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| [13:45:52] | stuarta: | ew |
| [13:48:45] | caelor: | ew at pipelight? yes, its a contortion to make it work, but the hurdle is set by the DRM requirements. I looked into it at one point, but it would appear to allow the DRM to be honoured. |
| [13:50:40] | caelor: | and surely an "ugly legal" solution trumps a clean solution that circumvents licensing? |
| [13:51:57] | caelor: | of course, the use of pipelight might circumvent the ToS of AmazonInstantVideo – I haven't checked, and if it does, then it's equally not an option. |
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| [16:07:24] | stuartm: | jmusits: maybe different in the US? It's definitely using silverlight in the UK |
| [16:11:18] | jmusits: | stuartm: it DOES use Silverlight, but will fallback to Flash |
| [16:11:56] | jmusits: | that said devices like Tivo, Roku, etc must be doing something different |
| [16:12:27] | jmusits: | I'm thinking about reaching out to Amazon and seeing if they would be open to having MythTV be an officially supported "device" |
| [16:12:45] | jmusits: | it may also open up some better API access as well |
| [16:13:35] | jmusits: | I wnat to make sure that if I invest my time in developing the integration I'm not going down a dead end |
| [16:14:46] | stuartm: | ah, no flash fallback here |
| [16:15:18] | jmusits: | so it does not work on a browser on *nix? |
| [16:15:22] | stuartm: | apparently rights holders insisted that flash DRM wasn't secure enough |
| [16:15:24] | stuartm: | jmusits: correct |
| [16:15:37] | stuartm: | strange that it would be different in the US |
| [16:15:53] | jmusits: | interesting...under setting I am able to select silverlight (preferred method) or flash |
| [16:16:44] | jmusits: | regardless, tivo, roku and other *nix devices are certainly not using silverlight |
| [16:20:04] | stuartm: | http://mythtv.co.uk/imagebin/amazon_instant_video.png |
| [16:22:17] | jmusits: | https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/ontv/settings |
| [16:22:28] | jmusits: | you don't have a Web Player Preferences section on that page? |
| [16:22:29] | jheizer_: | Weird, I can agree that flash works for me in US. Sliverlight was giving me grief the other day and I uninstalled it and flash worked. Prompts for silverlight to install but you can decline and use flash. |
| [16:22:59] | jmusits: | gotta love DRM and the entertainment industry |
| [16:23:09] | stuartm: | no option under settings to change preference – Amazon's instant video service in the UK was acquired by buying an instant company, LoveFilm, they dropped Flash support a couple of years ago – http://www.zdnet.com/lovefilm-drops-flash-kil . . . -4010024928/ |
| [16:23:24] | jmusits: | well, that explains it then |
| [16:23:25] | stuartm: | s/couple/three/ |
| [16:23:39] | jheizer_: | I don't see a preferences to change it for me in US. |
| [16:25:31] | ** stuarta hates flash ** | |
| [16:25:56] | ** jmusits hates silverlight too ** | |
| [16:26:11] | ** stuarta hates flash and silverlight ** | |
| [16:26:21] | stuartm: | I only have access to the instant video stuff because I had DVD (netflix style) rental subscription with LoveFilm (now Amazon) which included streaming whether you wanted it or not |
| [16:26:38] | ** stuartm hates proprietary crap ** | |
| [16:26:40] | jmusits: | s/flash/adobe/ & s/silverlight/microsoft |
| [16:27:49] | stuartm: | technically since they dropped the LoveFilm branding I've been able to cancel the streaming part of the subscription (unlimited dvd rental for £4 a month – woohoo) |
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| [17:16:20] | gary_buhrmaster: | stuartm: stuarta: jmusits: Not to worry, w3c has an alternative to Flash and Silverlight DRM. HTML5 encrypted media extension will make everything "better" (and is the target for NetFlix and Amazon Instant Video, and Hulu, and ...). Except, of course, no Linux support for most (any?) of the CDMs. |
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| [18:49:04] | clever: | gary_buhrmaster: how do they plan to implement the crypo? |
| [18:49:32] | ** clever reads https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/ti . . . d-media.html ** | |
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| [18:54:33] | clever: | looks like the browser must handle the keys and crypto, so each browser needs its own keys which the content provider must allow |
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| [19:31:16] | wagnerrp_: | stuarta: i've bought games and then simply had no choice but to turn to bittorrent for a functioning copy |
| [19:32:15] | sphery: | clever: The "content decryption modules" are basically like current browser plugins--just not using the plugin framework. They'll almost cerntainly be binary only (and can't be F/LOSS). So, they'll be available on approved OS's/browsers, if your content provider (or its encryption vendor) deems your OS/browser choice is worth their supporting. So for us, nothing changes--except now the companies can claim they're using a "standardized" solution. |
| [19:33:18] | clever: | sphery: ah, so its basicaly a plugin to let you use crypto in <video>, rather then going full flash/silverlight |
| [19:34:11] | clever: | so netflix only has to deal with crypto modules, and not full hardware accelerated video decode fun |
| [19:34:32] | clever: | let the browser implement the rest of <video> and decoding |
| [19:34:54] | wagnerrp_: | but netflix is still only going to write a crypto module for browsers it can verify continue to protect the content from the user across the full decode/presentation stage |
| [19:35:16] | clever: | yeah, so things like firefox are likely out |
| [19:35:29] | wagnerrp_: | which means, no source based browsers |
| [19:35:36] | wagnerrp_: | and likely no open source browsers at all |
| [19:35:52] | wagnerrp_: | so chromium is right out, and chrome may be as well |
| [19:35:55] | clever: | they would have to sign every build of firefox that they approve of, and maybe provides their own builds |
| [19:36:31] | clever: | if the entire binary is hashed and comes from known good source, they can probly do it in a secure manner |
| [19:37:32] | clever: | but thats likely too much work for netflix for relatively little gain, 'just use chrome/ie' |
| [19:45:56] | ** jmusits *sigh* ** | |
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| [20:53:10] | stuartm: | gigem: so I'm not working from an incorrect assumption, is it the channel number or the callsign (or both) that must be equal for the scheduler to consider channels as identical? |
| [20:55:12] | stuartm: | there's very little consistency between the guide, programinfo and therefore a lot of confusion even among devs on the subject – I'd like to try and bring everywhere into line |
| [20:56:24] | stuartm: | e.g. the guide only considers channels as identical if both callsign and channel number match, but from experience I don't believe that's true for scheduling |
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