| Tuesday, February 11th, 2014, 00:37 UTC | ||
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| [01:32:06] | wagnerrp: | stuarta: i recant my previous statements |
| [01:32:18] | wagnerrp: | apparently bhyve only supports Intel hardware at the moment |
| [01:32:58] | wagnerrp: | i may try qemu |
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| [09:28:47] | stuarta: | hah. somebody got referred to the forums via their backend!. clearly somebody uses mythbrowser! |
| [09:40:51] | stuartm: | heh |
| [09:41:22] | stuartm: | that reminds me, the one rss feed that mythnews doesn't carry is the news on mythtv.org ... |
| [09:42:00] | stuartm: | we should also be able to offer rss feeds for the different forums |
| [09:42:52] | stuartm: | e.g. https://forum.mythtv.org/feed.php?f=2 |
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| [09:44:48] | stuartm: | hmm, wonder if mythnews supports atom |
| [09:45:13] | stuarta: | have we just created a feature request for ourselves? |
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| [09:47:24] | stuartm: | :) |
| [09:49:05] | stuarta: | so next on my hit list is to get code.mythtv.org to work behind nginx |
| [09:50:25] | stuartm: | does someone else want to break the news of the forum on the -users mailing list since I apparently did such a bad job? |
| [09:50:58] | stuarta: | i'm not subscribed to -users to i can't |
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| [09:56:03] | ** stuarta waves to jya ** | |
| [09:56:14] | jya: | I'm here |
| [09:56:33] | stuarta: | that's why i waved :-) |
| [09:57:13] | jya: | ah, thought you wanted my attention :) |
| [09:57:27] | stuarta: | nope. just being friendly |
| [09:59:07] | ** jya waves back ** | |
| [10:02:23] | stuartm: | jya: you're hitting a lot of bugs lately :/ |
| [10:04:37] | jya: | tell me about it... and killer bug too |
| [10:05:05] | stuarta: | :( |
| [10:05:54] | jya: | got a drama last night with the olympic recording... wife thought it wasn't recorded so pressed RECORD in live TV; there it just stated: "recording cancelled" .. Impossible to restart the recording from that point |
| [10:06:08] | jya: | haven't seen my wife so angry about mythtv in a while |
| [10:06:38] | jya: | i guess she's had enough about it.. With live TV freezing consistently every few minutes in the past few weeks |
| [10:06:47] | jya: | i'm totally at lost about that one. |
| [10:08:49] | jya: | if anyone wants to spare some thoughts on it... |
| [10:09:00] | jya: | i've isolated the area where this is failing... |
| [10:09:44] | jya: | so the backend write via TFW (threaded file writer) which writes on disk in 64kB block minimum. 8MB max at a time |
| [10:09:53] | jya: | that's in thread #1 |
| [10:09:53] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/1 ** | |
| [10:10:47] | jya: | the frontend reads from the backend; which uses fileringbuffer to read from the disk using another thread #2 in a read-ahead process |
| [10:10:47] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/2 ** | |
| [10:11:15] | jya: | every once in a while; the read-ahead process sees its read blocking in excess of 25s |
| [10:11:39] | jya: | yet, I see the TFW writer writing happily on the disk, the file size is progressing as it should etc.. |
| [10:12:07] | jya: | I don't understand why reading on the same host as the writer, when the writer doesn't block would suddenly take such a long time. |
| [10:12:11] | stuarta: | local disk, or is there NFS in the mix? |
| [10:12:45] | jya: | even if the data isn't yet flushed on disk; the data should then be in the kernel cache, so there's no reason for wait |
| [10:12:54] | jya: | now the read/write is all on NFS |
| [10:13:20] | jya: | but it's only like that because it was occurring with my local disks (mdadm RAID5 + LVM + JFS) |
| [10:13:38] | stuarta: | tbh nfs is more likely to trigger it not less |
| [10:13:57] | jya: | as i kept having lockup, I migrated the actual data to a over specs file server |
| [10:14:13] | jya: | since I've totally replaced all the hardware components. |
| [10:14:20] | jya: | issue is still happening |
| [10:14:47] | stuarta: | 99% likely it's in mythtv |
| [10:14:56] | jya: | between the backend and the NFS server, it's a dedicated gigabit link with jumbo frame enabled |
| [10:15:09] | jya: | the NFS server is dedicated to mythbackend. |
| [10:15:35] | jya: | it's a monster machine: xeon, 32GB RAM, server grade board, 6x4TB disks |
| [10:16:23] | jya: | this issue also revealed another; when the read ahead thread times out, the backend just drops the connection by the frontend |
| [10:16:39] | jya: | the frontend usually doesn't survive being dropped like that during live TV |
| [10:16:44] | jya: | and I must kill the frontend process |
| [10:17:14] | jya: | i also don't think the backend is able to recover once it starts to get delay between reads. |
| [10:18:13] | jya: | once it starts showing message like WaitForAvail took 2s, 4s, 6s... it will not recover here.. I've never seen it coming out of it, even if the reads properly resume... there's a racing condition occurring there in the algorithm |
| [10:18:25] | stuarta: | sounds like it |
| [10:18:40] | jya: | anyway: point to that is: it's *very* fragile; and it now hits me 95% of the time I start live TV |
| [10:19:22] | jya: | the most unbelievable thing. I go into live TV. Press record. Go into the recording screen. Start watching. Fast forward so it's identical to doing live TV |
| [10:19:34] | jya: | I've *never* seen the frontend hanging doing that |
| [10:19:48] | jya: | don't see what difference there is between live TV and that |
| [10:20:02] | ** jya breath in .... ** | |
| [10:20:22] | stuartm: | error handling/recovery has long been broken in livetv, people were more interested in fixing the issues which lead to the errors than addressing the breakage in its ability to gracefully recover (or not) |
| [10:22:10] | stuartm: | I can't really help with the livetv issues, I simply don't know anything that may be useful, but I could produce a fix for that 'Record' cancels scheduled recording bug |
| [10:22:44] | stuartm: | that should never, ever happen |
| [10:22:56] | jya: | it doesn't always happen, i can't always reproduce it.. |
| [10:23:09] | jya: | seems to happen when you're in live TV when the recording has started. |
| [10:23:41] | jya: | basically you have a recording going, go into live TV. Press record. that press record will actually cancel the current recording |
| [10:24:10] | stuarta: | my pvr in this instance pops up a box "this is already recording, to you want to "continue recording" "cancel recording" with continue being the default |
| [10:24:24] | jya: | there's also the issue that if the recording starts while you're in live TV (automatic recording from a schedule). if you're watching the same channel, that recording is marked as live TV and it doesn't show in the list until you change the group |
| [10:24:41] | jya: | that's another issue, but very much related... |
| [10:24:45] | stuartm: | in fact 'Record' should probably not cancel any recording without confirmation, and we should also have some indication on-screen (either permanently, or in the OSD) that we've toggled record for a program in LiveTV |
| [10:24:57] | jya: | that too has hit me and gave me the wife's *i hate your TV stuff* look |
| [10:25:07] | jya: | cause she thought myth had lost a recording |
| [10:26:07] | stuartm: | jya: I suspect the two issues are directly connected and you're not the first to report something like that, I thought it had already been fixed |
| [10:26:31] | jya: | the bug is still open, they were both opened by me several months ago |
| [10:26:35] | stuartm: | I'm more curious right now to know when it was broken, not often that work gets done in that area |
| [10:27:34] | jya: | I'd love to do some GUI work; but instead i'm banging my head on a behaviour I don't understand and the code isn't talking back to me :( it's very depressing |
| [10:30:33] | stuarta: | jya: that's why i do work on infrastructure and backend internals |
| [10:31:12] | jya: | stuarta: if you want to take ownership of those ones, be my guest :) |
| [10:31:35] | jya: | I can easily max out the gigabit link between the backend and the NFS server |
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| [10:31:58] | jya: | i tried changing to NFSv4; bump up write/read cache.. no change |
| [10:32:43] | jya: | I thought that maybe if I forced a call to fsync in the TFW; maybe that would help... but seeing both the reader and the writer are on the same host. It shouldn't matter. its either on disk or in the kernel cache |
| [10:32:50] | jya: | which both have access to |
| [10:34:01] | stuarta: | forcing fsync when it's needed may not actually help, and could possibly hurt |
| [10:49:03] | jya: | only time it would help is you have something like backend -> NFS Server <- Frontend |
| [10:49:19] | jya: | that ensure the frontend sees all the data from the backend at the time it's written |
| [10:55:46] | stuarta: | yep |
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| [10:59:29] | jya: | well, that's the theory of things.... And I certainly can't explain why it is the reader can't see the data from the writer for such duration... here over 26s sometimes for safe_read to return |
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| [11:06:07] | stuarta: | i wonder if there is some way to unit test it |
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| [11:23:26] | sphery: | jya: for "bump up write/read cache" I'm assuming you mean rsize/wsize (and that should help vs specifying a small size), but if so, you'll likely get best performance without specifying them and letting client ans server negotiate the largest size both support, but just in case, you should either use noac or actimeo=1 (as not doing so may mean the file size and similar attributes are cached for 3sec min up to 60sec max (which could account for ... |
| [11:23:32] | sphery: | ... Live TV hangs if the file size doesn't change from what we've already read for a minute) |
| [11:24:05] | sphery: | (that is, just in case you were talking about the file attribute cache) |
| [11:24:30] | jya: | stuarta: actually, you give me a good idea in trying to isolate the issue... maybe I could write some small code trying to simulate that |
| [11:24:31] | jya: | need to find out the rate at which liveTV cause read/write |
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| [11:38:44] | stuarta: | jya: yeah, it may be the only way to isolate it |
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| [12:26:40] | wagnerrp: | the problem with the forum, you have to answer all the same questions all over again... |
| [12:27:04] | wagnerrp: | of course on the mailing list, no one ever checks the archives, so you have to answer them once a month anyway |
| [12:31:25] | stuarta: | haha |
| [12:31:36] | stuarta: | maybe the integrated search will help them |
| [12:31:44] | ** stuarta heads out for lunch ** | |
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| [13:07:41] | stuartm: | we can at least pin hot topics/F.A.Q.s at the top of the forum to stop them disappearing and hopefully keep repeat questions to a minimum |
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| [13:45:48] | wagnerrp_: | people really have no comprehension of the relative performance of ARM and x86 |
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| [13:54:25] | jya: | sphery: actimeo=1 or noac ? |
| [13:54:29] | DouglasK: | wagnerrp, that'd be true .. I suspect it's largely because people think in cycles, or in operations per second, not realizing that on some CPUs, more operations are needed to do the same thing. |
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| [13:55:10] | DouglasK: | What would make more sense for communicating processor speed is how many times / second it can do a standard benchmark. |
| [13:55:31] | jya: | boac seems to be equivalent to actimeo=0 |
| [13:55:37] | sphery: | jya: noac says to always query attributes from the remote system and actimeo=1 says to cache attributes for a second... either should work (and could really probably make it work with actimeo=3 or so), but for testing it may be best to start with noac |
| [13:55:38] | jya: | will try with actimeo=1 first |
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| [13:58:38] | jya: | sphery: but I still have my doubts that it will make a difference when both the reader and writer are on the same host... It shouldn't query the nfs server at this point. it should all still be in the kernel cache |
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| [14:00:06] | sphery: | jya: that could be... I thought it was a remote frontend or something since you said nfs. |
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| [14:00:23] | jya: | sphery: only the backend is using NFS. |
| [14:00:33] | jya: | frontend goes via storage group (myth:// url) |
| [14:00:47] | jya: | so it goes like this: FE -> BE -> NFS Server |
| [14:01:00] | jya: | could always go the iSCSI way... |
| [14:01:30] | jya: | would just screw up my daily snapshots |
| [14:01:53] | sphery: | yeah, still should probably use actimeo=3 or less for a mythtv box's nfs access, even if it's not related to this issue |
| [14:02:46] | jya: | 3s would be sufficient you think? |
| [14:03:04] | sphery: | yeah, should be fine for most everything |
| [14:03:05] | jya: | I'm not too worried about BW utilisation here. |
| [14:03:27] | jya: | the BE and NFS server are hooked via dedicated gigabit. They are really only a few cm from one another |
| [14:03:58] | jya: | will see how it goes tomorrow... if may write some unit tests using the TFW and RingBuffer class |
| [14:04:19] | jya: | off to bed now... a new House of Lies to watch ... cool |
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| [14:04:31] | jheizer: | Good switch between FE and BE? |
| [14:04:52] | jheizer: | last time I had live studdering issues was with a no name switch that couldn't seem to keep up. |
| [14:05:19] | jheizer: | but this was many many years ago |
| [14:05:44] | jya: | jheizer: there's no switch between the two. they are back to back via cat6 cable (50cm cable); and the LAN controller are Intel server grade |
| [14:05:58] | jya: | on both boards |
| [14:06:21] | jya: | super micro X10SL7-F board for the NFS server, and an ASRock Server E3C224 |
| [14:06:25] | jya: | for the backend |
| [14:07:27] | jheizer: | Meant FE<->BE connection |
| [14:07:40] | jheizer: | Just a shot in the dark. |
| [14:09:06] | jya: | i get that on all my FE unfortunately... |
| [14:09:14] | jheizer: | I bought some no name gbit switch like 7 years ago and while file copies were perfectly fine, myth would studder like a mofo. |
| [14:09:19] | jya: | and I did change the switch already just in case |
| [14:09:24] | jheizer: | put the nice 10/100 back in and all was fine again. |
| [14:09:28] | jheizer: | ah ok |
| [14:10:00] | jya: | Right now it's a DLink Layer-3 managed switch... not the greatest, but it's not bad gear despite being dlink |
| [14:10:17] | jheizer: | Only other back word I have is virtualization of the BE |
| [14:10:32] | jya: | I had a dell layer3 managed switch.. Which I was happy to change because it was just too loud (1U, with 3 fans) |
| [14:10:54] | jheizer: | I actually have all dlink switches now. They have all been great for me. |
| [14:11:43] | jheizer: | A friend fought with esxi and myth for weeks before moving to real linux/KVM for the other OSs. |
| [14:12:17] | jya: | that's with iperf: 942Mbit/s |
| [14:12:24] | jya: | thought it could be more |
| [14:13:00] | wagnerrp_: | would you believe we have people at work and customers wondering why we can't run a real time OS on a virtual machine? |
| [14:13:26] | ** stuarta facepalms ** | |
| [14:13:31] | jheizer: | lmao |
| [14:13:36] | jya: | give them the opposite; that will be a good compromise |
| [14:14:15] | stuarta: | wagnerrp_: out of curiousity, we did get an RT kernel to boot in a VM. diabolical that was |
| [14:14:51] | wagnerrp_: | i'm not saying it won't run. run QNX under virtual box when i don't have a spare PC handy |
| [14:15:03] | wagnerrp_: | but expecting your programming to actually function properly.... |
| [14:15:19] | ** stuarta offers wagnerrp_ a cluebat ** | |
| [14:15:44] | wagnerrp_: | when you're trying to poll an input at 1ms under a VM, reliably, it just ain't gonna work |
| [14:18:12] | jheizer: | haha |
| [14:18:47] | jheizer: | VMs sure have their benefits, but some people just don't understand them. |
| [14:19:24] | stuarta: | indeed they do. |
| [14:19:39] | stuarta: | i use vm's for reproducers all the time |
| [14:20:33] | jheizer: | Yeah as devs they are amazing. I think we are at 14 guests now on our 2 hosts. |
| [14:20:52] | stuarta: | i run 5 buildslaves on 1 host |
| [14:21:00] | jya: | weird... linux -> freebsd: 942Mbit/s / jumbo frame: 992Mbit/s |
| [14:21:13] | jya: | sorry, that's freebsd -> linux |
| [14:21:17] | stuarta: | jya: you testing with something like iperf ? |
| [14:21:27] | jya: | but linux -> freebsd: I get 450Mbit/s max now |
| [14:21:32] | jya: | yeah.. using iperf |
| [14:21:53] | stuarta: | i proved that i needed to get rid of powerline networking in my house using that |
| [14:21:55] | jya: | i notice the TCP window size is 85.3kB on linux and 35kB on bsd... |
| [14:22:11] | jya: | wonder if that makes a difference |
| [14:22:15] | jheizer: | I just ran it between my Slave/FE and MBE and get 1/2 the speed one direction as the other as well. |
| [14:23:05] | jya: | jheizer: then you must replace your FE, your BE, your switch , you power supplies and the ethernet cable |
| [14:23:20] | stuarta: | either that or the wet string between them is drying out |
| [14:24:02] | jheizer: | hmm, and me tcp window size on the MBE is 1/4 that of the FE |
| [14:24:07] | jheizer: | See what you started! |
| [14:28:00] | jya: | weird... mac -> freebsd I too get 942Mbit/s |
| [14:28:09] | jya: | only linux -> freebsd is crap.. |
| [14:29:22] | jya: | mac -> linux good, linux -> mac: good. mac -> bad: good; bsd -> mac good. |
| [14:30:54] | jya: | ah linux -> mac is crap now too... |
| [14:31:02] | jya: | wtf |
| [14:33:44] | stuarta: | fecking firewalld |
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| [15:06:14] | wagnerrp_: | no ability to post in-line images, another potential benefit of mailing lists... :) |
| [15:08:20] | jheizer: | lol |
| [15:08:34] | jheizer: | I wanted to jab/fuel him. |
| [15:09:37] | jheizer: | I've been waiting for a 10 paragraph rawr from one of the two of them. |
| [15:12:41] | jya_: | ok... upgraded intel igb drive from 4.0 to 5.0.6 (latest) and now it's all super fast in both ways |
| [15:16:15] | jya_: | oh, I spoke too fast, and I'm too tired... was testing freebsd -> linux |
| [15:16:18] | jya_: | still just as crap |
| [15:32:45] | jya_: | sphery: oh well, just got the issue again.. using actimeo=1 |
| [15:32:58] | jya_: | giving up for tonight |
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| [15:56:06] | dekarl-work: | re repeating over and over. can we have on search function that finds forum topics, mailing list threads, trac tickets, and most importantly guides in wiki articles? I like answering questiongs with links to the wiki. |
| [15:56:13] | dekarl-work: | s/on/one/ |
| [16:01:22] | stuarta: | dekarl-work: i thought that was called sphery ?? ;-) |
| [16:02:18] | dekarl-work: | :) |
| [16:02:38] | dekarl-work: | sphery !url tuners |
| [16:02:42] | dekarl-work: | !url tuners |
| [16:02:42] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword tuners |
| [16:03:38] | dekarl-work: | wagnerrp_: Do we strip HTML/images from the mails on the lists? |
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| [17:08:20] | stuartm: | dekarl1: no, since it doesn't always work well |
| [17:08:48] | stuartm: | when I enabled it we got some blank emails through |
| [17:09:11] | stuartm: | well blank/malformed |
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| [17:12:31] | jheizer: | I'm surprised I have not a mean reply to my joke yet. Though I just now noticed that was not -users. |
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| [17:37:50] | dekarl1 is now known as dekarl | |
| [17:42:51] | stuartm: | wagnerrp_: in-line images can actually be useful – the useless stuff, images in signatures is disabled, as is the ability to upload animated gifs |
| [17:43:56] | dekarl: | wagnerrp_, any opinion about adding http://sourceforge.net/projects/mythtvwindows/ to http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Packages ? |
| [17:44:26] | stuartm: | a lot of what we're hearing in that thread is based on generalisations about forums in general (badly run forums) or ignorance on what forums can and cannot do |
| [17:46:47] | stuartm: | and when there is that amount of FUD it's not worth anyone's time to address the issues raised, as I've said, there are pros and cons to each and mailing lists do have their place, the detractors are just unwilling to acknowledge that forums also have a place (like them new fangled motor cars) |
| [17:46:58] | knightr: | stuartm, thank you, I saw you added me as mod for both Canada and France... I was not set as moderator of the translation forum but since this is apparently a development forum and it looks like I am not (or no longer) a developer (I am set as translator on the forum) I guess that`s why... |
| [17:48:04] | stuartm: | knightr: you're in both groups, developer and translator – I can bump it so that developer > translator if you want |
| [17:48:26] | stuartm: | you're group leader for the translator group btw |
| [17:49:48] | stuartm: | and I hadn't started assigning moderators for forums other than the 'country' ones yet, it's not that I've deliberately not assigned you to it, I've not assigned anyone to those forums |
| [17:51:49] | knightr: | stuartm, I thought of that but I am, supposedly and according to my profile, part of "Forum moderators", "Translator" and two user related groups (I see them in French currently so I am not fully sure what they are called in English... |
| [17:52:08] | knightr: | (that's why I said that, I did think of it...) weird... |
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| [17:52:23] | knightr: | I guess phpbb handles this in a very weird way... |
| [17:52:24] | stuartm: | ah, oops, refresh |
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| [17:53:12] | knightr: | ah, thank you! you might want to check for kenn i as well, I think he is in the same situation... |
| [17:53:46] | stuartm: | thought I had added you, but ... you'll have to forgive me, keeping track of assigning all these groups/permissions is hard :) |
| [17:54:13] | stuartm: | I only have to forget to click 'confirm' once ... |
| [17:55:03] | knightr: | nici o problema... it just made me wonder if there was a memo I had not received... ;-) |
| [17:55:15] | knightr: | (that's no problem...) |
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| [17:56:11] | stuartm: | may have tried to add you to the group as 'knightr' made that mistake when adding you as a mod on the forums but caught my mistake that time |
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| [17:56:56] | knightr: | yep, that makes sense... I usually prefer knight to knightr but could not here as it is already taken... |
| [17:57:19] | stuartm: | if there are any other devs or translators who haven't been added to the appropriate user groups on the forum then let me know, I've tried to keep an eye on the member list for new registrations but the longer it gets the harder that becomes |
| [17:58:58] | knightr: | no problem, I will keep an eye on it... thank you! |
| [17:59:28] | stuartm: | I wonder how many times it has to be said in that thread that the mailing lists aren't going away (especially not the dev list) |
| [18:00:31] | dekarl: | The thread on forums is just bikeshedding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law_of_triviality |
| [18:01:01] | dekarl: | lets derail the discussion into building an atomic reactor to power the forum server :D |
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| [18:08:27] | wagnerrp_: | dekarl: i actually thought that was on the Packages page. i know we do have some windows packages page listed there |
| [18:08:41] | wagnerrp_: | although it would be worth noting that they only offer 0.26 |
| [18:13:58] | dekarl: | http://sourceforge.net/projects/mythtvwindows/files/ has v0.27-41-g1224f05 |
| [18:20:57] | stuartm: | we should like to those from a sticky in the windows forum and http://www.mythtv.org/download |
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| [18:31:54] | wagnerrp_: | dekarl: ah, i just saw their main download link listed 0.26.1, and didn't search further |
| [18:34:00] | jheizer: | dekarl: lmao! Why you asked if it got stripped before sending. Nice. And +1 for the "hidden" link. :) |
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| [18:36:39] | dekarl: | jheizer: I had to shrink it to pass moderation, so it really was some effort to compose this piece of art :) Sadly I lost my changed topic of "Re: [mythtv] MythTV Forums powered by an atomic reactor!" in the rewrite. |
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| [18:50:47] | jheizer: | LOL nice |
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| [18:54:28] | stuartm: | we don't host builds for legal reasons |
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| [19:05:13] | dekarl: | So we only help some user to setup the build and host the binaries then later link to them from our official ressources? |
| [19:06:03] | dekarl: | If that works we should help the users some more, so the binaries are up to date ;) |
| [19:06:17] | stuartm: | yes, we let some poor sap take the blame when the lawyers come knocking |
| [19:08:14] | stuartm: | we may want to review that position, after first taking advice from a lawyer at the EFF or SFLC, but historically that's why we don't do it ourselves |
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| [19:09:36] | stuartm: | I believe under US law it only counts as patent infringement if you are shipping a finished product, the designs (or source code) don't count as a finished product |
| [19:10:31] | stuartm: | or US law as of the point in time the 'no binaries' decision was first made, but IANAL |
| [19:13:01] | dekarl: | hmm, so we have to kill TTIP and let some european user provide the binaries... |
| [19:15:48] | jheizer: | I always assumed it was providing the non-free ffmpeg codecs compiled in as much as any DVR/Time skipping function. |
| [19:16:21] | stuartm: | there is no MythTV without those codecs, it wouldn't be able to do anything – play video or music |
| [19:16:56] | jheizer: | Yeah. Totally. |
| [19:17:21] | stuartm: | all broadcast TV uses patent-encumbered codecs, mp3/aac/ac3 – all covered by patents |
| [19:17:49] | jheizer: | I guess I was more bringing up is it ok to distribute those from the EU even? |
| [19:18:20] | stuartm: | no idea, as I said, we'd have to consult a lawyer (solictor) or two |
| [19:18:31] | stuartm: | solicitor |
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| [19:20:05] | dekarl: | hmm, SFLC represents the XBMC foundation which provides similar binaries. |
| [19:20:21] | stuartm: | we've enough to do at the moment, there are some more material changes we can make such as improvements to the content of the website |
| [19:20:42] | stuartm: | and let's not forget all the features we can finish implementing, bugs that need fixing etc |
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| [19:22:00] | stuartm: | dekarl: we don't know if they took advice before providing those or not, we're also represented by the SFLC but we've never asked that question of them |
| [19:23:19] | dekarl: | stuartm: I just looked into it because users over in #mythtv-de talked about the hidden location of the windows binaries for the stable release. |
| [19:23:23] | stuartm: | we even have a part-time contributor and former EFF lawyer in this channel atm, but I wouldn't want to abuse that connection to ask her advice |
| [19:24:14] | stuartm: | dekarl: no reason for it to be hidden, I'd like to see a better download page on the site with clear links |
| [19:24:49] | stuartm: | any dev should be able to edit that page (although only some can actually publish the changes) since it's in a git repo |
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| [19:28:30] | DevWork_: | so can I take a stream from a cable card tuner on a server, like a ceton infinitv, and pipe that over the network to an xbmc box to display? |
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| [19:39:01] | dekarl: | DevWork_: you likely want to search for OCUR (Open Cable Unidirectional Receiver) and OCAP (OpenCable Application Platform) over at #xbmc or https://www.google.de/search?q=site:forum.xbmc.org+ocur |
| [19:39:27] | DevWork_: | yes im chilling over there. |
| [19:40:13] | DevWork_: | And I've read all this. |
| [19:40:59] | DevWork_: | And its all conflicting. Some people say you can do it. Some people say you can do it, and not with ceton. Some say works with ceton. |
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| [19:45:48] | DevWork_: | What device in the chain reads the CCI and refuses to output it, is that the cablecard's doing? or is that done by the PCI device itself? |
| [19:46:08] | DevWork_: | I don't even think it matters in my case. My provider uses copy freely on almost everything. Just curious at this point. |
| [19:55:54] | stuartm: | warpme: any problems with the forum today? We've implemented some more anti-spam measures which also use blocklists |
| [19:57:56] | warpme: | stuartm: no any problems with forum. Later evening I'll check rest of links... |
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| [20:07:21] | wagnerrp_: | DevWork_: the cablecard tuner is licensed and keyed by Cable Labs, or else the cablecard would refuse to pair with it |
| [20:07:41] | wagnerrp_: | as part of that licensing, the cablecard tuner agrees to only communicate downstream with similarly keyed applications and products |
| [20:08:00] | wagnerrp_: | which as far as i know, is limited to Windows Media Center |
| [20:08:26] | wagnerrp_: | any unlicensed client can access content flagged for no copy protection, but only WMC can access copy protected content |
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| [20:08:58] | DevWork_: | So the PCI card, not the cable card, would see that the copy once flag is set, and then refuse to send it to the software. |
| [20:09:11] | wagnerrp_: | technically, it's not a PCI device. it's a networked, embedded computer, existing on a PCI bridge |
| [20:09:15] | DevWork_: | yea |
| [20:09:16] | wagnerrp_: | but yes, it is the tuner card's doing |
| [20:09:29] | DevWork_: | Alright. I gotcha. |
| [20:09:42] | wagnerrp_: | but either way, it makes no difference |
| [20:09:56] | wagnerrp_: | the reality is the same, copy unprotected content only |
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| [23:00:55] | stuartm: | so if you feed it the right playlist file, html 5 video via HLS works well in Opera/Browser and Firefox on Android |
| [23:01:03] | stuartm: | wish the same could be said of desktop browsers |
| [23:01:48] | stuartm: | hmm, strike Firefox from that list ... still two out of three ain't bad |
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| [23:05:44] | stuartm: | of course on the desktop, linux in particular, HTML5 Video + HLS is going to be non-starter because HLS is tied to H.264 :/ |
| [23:06:51] | jheizer: | I never realized how Apple centric HLS really was till I made that spreadsheet (assuming you are referencing it from -users) |
| [23:07:11] | stuartm: | jheizer: spreadsheet? |
| [23:07:26] | jheizer: | err, the forum |
| [23:07:27] | jheizer: | oh |
| [23:07:28] | jheizer: | nm |
| [23:07:34] | stuartm: | been looking at this lately – http://www.jwplayer.com/html5/hls/ |
| [23:08:25] | stuartm: | but other than that, just trying to figure out how to make playback in the WebFrontend work] |
| [23:08:49] | jheizer: | Ah, thought you were referencing this thread https://forum.mythtv.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=18 |
| [23:09:04] | jheizer: | has a spreadsheet I made up for players and their HLS support |
| [23:09:26] | jheizer: | on windows I ended up using the jwplayer that is already distributed with myth now |
| [23:10:09] | jheizer: | the current free jwplayer does not include hls support |
| [23:10:19] | stuartm: | yeah, still seems like jwplayer is the only option |
| [23:10:24] | jheizer: | http://www.jwplayer.com/pricing/ |
| [23:10:41] | stuartm: | it might be nice to see what the new version offers but that requires someone with the flash sdk building a new version |
| [23:11:14] | stuartm: | jheizer: the open source one is free, but you've got to build it yourself and licensing is CC-Non Commercial |
| [23:11:49] | stuartm: | my understanding is that's exactly what we did for the bundled copy |
| [23:11:57] | jheizer: | Oh, I did not realize that. |
| [23:12:24] | stuartm: | they try to bury that and information is sparse |
| [23:12:25] | jheizer: | From what I gathered the current add on for HLS was a special exception to be bundled with Myth. |
| [23:12:39] | jheizer: | Don't remember where I read that. |
| [23:13:08] | jheizer: | But to the point where I coded to call the Myth downloads to get jwplayer and use that from the BE instead of just bundling the version myth uses directly. |
| [23:13:19] | stuartm: | iirc we asked them whether it was OK to supply it in binary form for use only with MythTV |
| [23:13:49] | jheizer: | So that was I was not distributing it, just consuming the existing version with GetFile calls. |
| [23:13:58] | stuartm: | the license wouldn't seem to have precluded that, we just asked to be on the safe side |
| [23:14:53] | stuartm: | but don't rely on my understanding, I wasn't directly involved – Captain_Murdoch may (should?) know more |
| [23:14:59] | stuartm: | or xris |
| [23:15:09] | jheizer: | Ahh, found the trac |
| [23:15:14] | stuartm: | I can't rightly remember who was involved in that proof of concept |
| [23:15:23] | jheizer: | Niice. That would have saved me a few evenings work. |
| [23:15:35] | stuartm: | jheizer: do you have flex? |
| [23:15:46] | jheizer: | I do not. |
| [23:15:50] | Captain_Murdoch: | JW Player? we received special permission to re-package their package into a .zip file and redistribute off our server. I showed them a copy of the mythbackend web page that would be used to initiate the one-click install and they approved. |
| [23:16:41] | stuartm: | Captain_Murdoch: were we using the open source copy, or one of their pre-built versions? |
| [23:16:51] | Captain_Murdoch: | it is still their watermarked version that is freely available for download. I checked with them mainly due to the repackaging and the fact that we were bypasing their download server. |
| [23:17:19] | jheizer: | And their free download of that version did not include the HLS component did it? |
| [23:17:25] | stuartm: | Captain_Murdoch: oh, OK, I thought we were using one built from the CC licensed source |
| [23:17:30] | Captain_Murdoch: | the one you get off their site if you submit the form with your email address. not sure if that's open source version or not. at the time I set it up, they were working on a major release I think, so their download system may not be the same as now. |
| [23:18:06] | Captain_Murdoch: | jheizer, right, that was also another reason to package it up ourself so we coudl include the also-freely-available HLS plugin |
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| [23:18:38] | jheizer: | Captain_Murdoch says I remember having this conversation about a year ago... haha. |
| [23:18:44] | Captain_Murdoch: | they were working on a new version with HLS integrated but I haven't kept up with it to know if that was ever released. |
| [23:18:52] | Captain_Murdoch: | :) probably not |
| [23:18:57] | jheizer: | I did not realize the HLS plugin was also freely available. |
| [23:18:57] | stuartm: | their latest release looks prettier and possibly offers some functionality we may leverage such as the ability to select whether you using a low/high quality (bitrate) from within the player itself |
| [23:19:23] | Captain_Murdoch: | jheizer, yeah, it was at the time, it was released in their forums. not sure if they still have it free or not in the newer version. |
| [23:19:40] | jheizer: | As of march of 2013 JW was the only real option I could find FWIW. |
| [23:19:41] | stuartm: | Captain_Murdoch: their website indicates that the current version supports HLS |
| [23:19:45] | stuartm: | http://www.jwplayer.com/features/ |
| [23:19:59] | stuartm: | down at the bottom |
| [23:20:48] | stuartm: | ah, seems the HLS supporting version is the 'Pro' at $300/year |
| [23:20:53] | Captain_Murdoch: | player works well IMHO. I also played around once with a MythWeb patch that embedded JW Player and had some hard-coded start/stop buttons for the stream. it was a hack so never released/committed. |
| [23:21:52] | jheizer: | stuartm, yeah why I used the existing one. |
| [23:22:03] | stuartm: | Android and probably iOS work natively with the <video> tag + our HLS playlist |
| [23:23:30] | stuartm: | well not the playlist we intially supply, which just contains two further playlists – they choke on that, feed them the av playlist though and they work great |
| [23:24:15] | Captain_Murdoch: | according to the license.txt file in our .zip, the version I packaged has the CC license. |
| [23:25:54] | jheizer: | I can try to update my spreadsheet tonight with android 4.2.2 and 4.3.1 test results |
| [23:26:16] | jheizer: | Such a pain to just play a video on any device. |
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| [23:28:29] | stuartm: | need to play with jwplayer to see what happens if flash is disabled, it's supposed to fallback to HTML 5 but IDK if that's ever been tested |
| [23:30:46] | Captain_Murdoch: | I searched their support forums and found links to the adaptiveplugin.swf file in the public repo don't work anymore, maybe they decided to take it non-public at some point. |
| [23:31:47] | Captain_Murdoch: | stuartm, I think that depends a lot on how it is setup in the html as well as your server of course. I was planning on supporting both, the AVFormatWriter supports more than just the codec and container needed for HLS. |
| [23:34:46] | stuartm: | aye, but it also means adding support for an alternate method of adaptive streaming such as Media Source, but only Chrome supports that atm |
| [23:35:10] | stuartm: | so HLS + JW remains the only real option for the desktop |
| [23:37:52] | stuartm: | we could offer native html5 playback otherwise, but that means the file has to be transcoded in full before you can start playback, and I don't know how many people would really use that option, it requires knowing well in advance what you'll want to watch (or transcoding everything thus wasting space and processing power) |
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| [23:53:01] | dekarl: | according to http://www.webmproject.org/tools/ there is also WebM live streaming |
| [23:53:34] | dekarl: | hmm, not sure if its adaptive tough |
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