Tuesday, November 5th, 2013, 00:15 UTC | ||
[00:15:48] | skd5aner: | stichnot: fyi, I think you were complaining about the blue light in the ID-41 – I read that it can be turned off in BIOS |
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[04:18:41] | stichnot: | skd5aner: yeah, I found that no-bling BIOS setting pretty quickly |
[04:18:57] | stichnot: | also, I was able to adjust the fan settings to nearly inaudible |
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[14:10:00] | stuartm: | it's a shame tvdb doesn't make it easy to use additional information such as number of series and number of episodes in each series to narrow down the best match when two different series have the same name |
[14:11:06] | stuartm: | if we could utilise that information it would reduce false positives significantly |
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[14:49:29] | Seeker`: | Has anyone ever looked in to using RST in DVB to make better educated guesses about when programs start? |
[14:51:10] | stuartm: | several times |
[14:51:47] | stuartm: | Janne even had a working implementation at one point I believe, but it never made it into the code base for one reason or another |
[14:53:44] | stuartm: | part of the problem for start times is that if you want to use it so that you don't miss an early start, you've got to start monitoring the channel several minutes in advance – so there's really no difference to just starting every recording early |
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[14:54:16] | stuartm: | it's more useful for ensuring you don't miss the end of the recording |
[14:54:21] | stuartm: | s/recording/programme/ |
[14:54:47] | stuartm: | could also be useful to auto-set cutpoints at the beginning/end of the recording |
[14:57:18] | stuarta: | i also vaguely recall that they send the triggers as the program starts, and our recording infrastructure take a while to spin up, so you actually end up missing stuff |
[14:57:39] | dekarl-work: | stuartm, how can the number of seasons narrow down the false matches? Do we have reference data somewhere? And what about brands that are still running? Hmm, can't reference their API documentation as cloudflare says the main server is down... |
[14:59:02] | dekarl-work: | It may be easier to help the metabroadcast people to update their xmltv feed and add tvdb series ids directly into the guide data :) |
[15:00:17] | stuartm: | dekarl-work: for those guide sources providing season/episode/totalepisode info we can for example say that if Season = 3 and only two seasons were made/exist for Show A then that's not a correct match |
[15:00:48] | Seeker`: | stuarta: stuartm: I was thinking that you could start the pre-record a few minutes early, then if you encounter a RST which says "starting in a few seconds" you discard the recording up to that point |
[15:01:27] | Seeker`: | that way if you get an RST you have the recording trimmed on each end, if you don't then you've got the overrun anyway |
[15:01:33] | stuartm: | similarly if total episodes for Show A Season 1 = 10, but we have a total episodes of 22, it's not the same series |
[15:02:15] | dekarl-work: | Seeker`: is the RST spot on or does the quality depend on the station? e.g. RST/EIT running on schedule while the programming runs freely |
[15:02:58] | Seeker`: | dekarl-work: my understanding is that RST should be issued at an appropriate time if it is issued at all (RST is optional) |
[15:02:58] | dekarl-work: | stuartm, hmm, thats not going to be easy with all the arguments about when the season switch was etc pp, see Hirakicore fanclub post ;) |
[15:04:27] | Seeker`: | "Running status sections are used to rapidly update the running status of one or more events. Running |
[15:04:30] | Seeker`: | status sections are sent out only once, at the time the status of an event changes" |
[15:04:36] | dekarl-work: | Seeker`: we could start with fixing the on-air-guide based on TDT/TOT. Some stations don't adjust their UTC offset when DST kicks in/out but fiddle with the raw UTC timestamps instead... So if "their UTC" is an hour off from "our UTC" we could move the guide around |
[15:05:07] | stuartm: | dekarl-work: that's the sort of argument that has meant despite having season, episode data from guide sources meant we weren't storing it – yes, there may be some fringe cases were it wouldn't work but it would still be a lot better than the status quo |
[15:05:44] | stuartm: | fact is that title alone isn't sufficiently unique to correctly identify shows, and that's only going to get worse as more and more titles are re-used |
[15:06:11] | dekarl-work: | http://forums.thetvdb.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6590 |
[15:06:51] | dekarl-work: | what title do you use over in UK for e.g. BSG 2013? http://thetvdb.com/?string=galactica&sear . . . ction=Search |
[15:07:06] | stuartm: | TVDB compound the issue by inserting production year into titles for repeated names e.g. Foo (2013), that causes us to reject that show as a potential match because we're looking for Foo |
[15:07:36] | dekarl-work: | hmm, exactly (but it was BSG 2003) |
[15:07:38] | stuartm: | Battlestar Galactica |
[15:07:58] | Seeker`: | dekarl-work: I'd be willing to try and implement an RST thing to get a better feel for how the code works, and I think I can work out where to put the extra table in, just no idea how to interface that with the recorder functionality |
[15:08:32] | stuartm: | dekarl-work: not that it was broadcast FTA over here, so I caught it on DVD |
[15:08:38] | dekarl-work: | ok, same as over here. But the 1978 series was translated to "Kampfstern Galactica", so we didn't have a name clash in german |
[15:09:46] | stuartm: | our code currently assumes the closest title match is the correct one, so "Battlestar Galactica" would be preferred over "Battlestar Galactica (2003)" |
[15:10:51] | Seeker`: | you could just strip out numbers in brackets from the tvdb title unless there is one in the local title |
[15:11:44] | stuartm: | Seeker`: we could, although that still means users having to go in and manually select the correct one |
[15:12:06] | dekarl-work: | but only once, when initially setting up the recording rule |
[15:12:14] | stuartm: | an improvement over selecting the incorrect one, but still not a perfect solution |
[15:12:59] | dekarl-work: | we could also prefer newer series |
[15:13:25] | Seeker`: | stuartm: it would stop newer versions of shows being autorejected as a potential match though |
[15:13:25] | dekarl-work: | or, if present, use the episode title to reduce the candidate set |
[15:13:34] | stuartm: | still think there's potential in using the data we have to help identify the correct match automatically – I personally don't want to be doing it manually for every rule, it's inconvenient |
[15:14:20] | dekarl-work: | obviously there is no api to search for episode title, so you have to download all episodes of all series and match it on your own |
[15:15:03] | stuartm: | dekarl-work: right, episode title is another way of narrowing down potential matches (although in the case of something like BSG, I'd not be surprised if they re-used the odd title as a nod to the original) |
[15:15:40] | stuartm: | and for a lot of series, the first episode is 'Pilot' :) |
[15:15:43] | Seeker`: | EPG can contain cast information too |
[15:15:49] | dekarl-work: | stuartm: or you live in a locale where the same episode has different titles depending on licensee/transmitting station.. |
[15:16:06] | Seeker`: | especially for more modern titles |
[15:16:12] | stuartm: | dekarl-work: that tends not to be a problem here at least |
[15:16:52] | dekarl-work: | Seeker`: the director / year is a nice hint for movies. Only that stations tend to use "year of production" and all movie databases use "year of first public showing" which can be a decade off :( |
[15:17:30] | Seeker`: | dekarl-work: Some TV series in my EPG have actual cast members listed as well |
[15:18:44] | dekarl-work: | Seeker`: not many networks transmit that on EIT and for the ones that do we don't parse it, as its a plain-old-key-value-human-readable-string-set. But I have that on my list. For the xmltv feeds, its way cooler to manually match to the correct series upstream and e.g. supply a list "series name","station","tvdb id" with the grabber |
[15:20:26] | dekarl-work: | stuartm, for UK EIT, can we not simply stick a map of CRID/seriesid to thetvdb-series-id on services? |
[15:20:58] | stuartm: | dekarl-work: that would be good |
[15:21:30] | stuartm: | obviously it would need people contributing to it |
[15:21:44] | dekarl-work: | of maybe donate the list to the Atlas people, as they should have the crid already and are thinking about pulling fanart via thetvdbid, too |
[15:21:52] | dekarl-work: | s/of/or/ |
[15:22:01] | stuartm: | dekarl-work: did you work out access to the services repo? |
[15:22:45] | dekarl-work: | nope, its not publically available, so I have to do git-over-ssh or something, but I don't have (or needed til now) login access |
[15:22:59] | stuartm: | you'd think they've have access to the crid, but if they do, they aren't currently including it in the xmltv feed |
[15:24:58] | stuartm: | would be nice if they did, it would allow use of EIT and xmltv side by side (different channels) |
[15:25:15] | Seeker`: | stuartm: any idea where the RST code that was previously implemented might be living? |
[15:25:58] | stuartm: | Seeker`: it was never committed, and it was before git, so there's no branch – you could ask Janne but I doubt he still has it |
[15:35:35] | Seeker`: | stuartm: ah, fair enough. I may have a poke around. |
[15:37:43] | dekarl-work: | stuartm: The current xmltv feed was inherited and is on life support. |
[15:41:27] | skd5aner: | stuartm: in the US, SD provides a unique show ID, which is also a field that TheTVDB uses... why not just use that as a way to avoid conflicts? |
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[15:41:58] | skd5aner: | thetvdb also uses things like IMDB ID and TV.com IDs as well, assuming people enter them |
[15:42:12] | stuartm: | I'm not in the US |
[15:42:19] | skd5aner: | well, there's your problem! |
[15:42:20] | skd5aner: | ;-) |
[15:43:00] | skd5aner: | Obviously, I know you're not in the US, but at least it'd be something that would help a large percentage of the user base and resolve the issue at hand |
[15:43:09] | skd5aner: | for non-SD members, however... |
[15:43:12] | skd5aner: | same problem |
[15:46:25] | skd5aner: | I brought this up about 4 years ago when the metadata stuff was just added, but at the time Robert was against it because he was of the opinion that TheTVDB shouldnt' be storing SD's ID because "the ID is proprietary and TheTVDB is not paying to use it" :P |
[15:46:33] | dekarl-work: | crazy, idea. sd could add thetvdb ids to their feed once they run the servers themselves. initial filling done with thetvdb data, then collect it via some webinterface from the user base :) |
[15:46:37] | skd5aner: | that doesn't mean it's not there, and MythTV users would obviously be paying for it |
[15:48:29] | skd5aner: | dekarl-work: that's an interesting proposal, but woudl require manual moderation unless something was created that could crowdsource user-validated IDs and know which was which... I can tell you, manually moderating the 100k+ icons for the US was a mind numbing experience |
[15:48:35] | skd5aner: | I gave up after about a year |
[15:48:52] | skd5aner: | and that was with a quasi-automated service |
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[15:49:36] | dekarl-work: | skd5aner: ... tvbrainz ... they support adcanved relationships and already have a good moderation system |
[15:49:43] | skd5aner: | dekarl-work: but, if TheTVDB already collects the SD-ID, and all users get that with their listing anyway – why do it the other way? |
[15:50:30] | skd5aner: | dekarl-work: yes, the nirvana-state of tvbrainz is truly amazing! It does everything that you and I would ever expect it to! With Ice Cream on top! |
[15:50:43] | dekarl-work: | skd5aner: the main benefit is to not depend on thetvdb if you get your guide from atlas, including the nice pictures from fanart.tv degrading thetvdb to a common reference id provider |
[15:51:11] | dekarl-work: | so you use their data, but not their servers |
[15:51:29] | skd5aner: | dekarl-work: have you looked at what metabrainz tries to accomplish? |
[15:51:56] | skd5aner: | wonder if that's somethign that could be leveraged easily |
[15:51:58] | dekarl-work: | https://github.com/SchedulesDirect/JSON-Service |
[15:52:33] | skd5aner: | ooops, looked at clock and got to run to a dr appointment... running a bit late, later!! |
[15:52:35] | skd5aner: | :) |
[15:53:11] | dekarl-work: | skd5aner: later... I'm not sure I understand the question, quoting from their website "The MetaBrainz Foundation has been set up to build community maintained databases and make them available in the public domain or under Creative Commons licenses." |
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[16:18:47] | dekarl-work: | skd5aner: does this say that SD already pushes thetvdb ids down the pipe to mythtv? http://forums.schedulesdirect.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1584 |
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[16:41:08] | stuartm: | skd5aner: well obviously we should be using the SD ids for SD users. the tricky part is that the xmltv parser has been faking SD style ideas for years and there is a potential for collision :/ |
[16:41:25] | stuartm: | ideas ... IDs |
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[20:59:16] | skd5aner: | dekarl: wow, good find... perhaps SD does, interesting! |
[21:00:36] | skd5aner: | stuartm: sorry, I'm not as famliar with how xmltv does it's thing... does the "fake SD style IDs" you mentioned that xmltv leverages start with "SH"? |
[21:01:03] | skd5aner: | I believe that's the prefix that all series use for Schedules Direct |
[21:03:09] | stuartm: | it's not an xmltv thing, but some behaviour that was hacked into our xmltv parser, it 'creates' program ids starting with SH/MV/EP/SP to match those from TMS |
[21:04:52] | stuartm: | it uses an ELF Hash of the titles plus season/episode numbers to create a numerical string that is supposed to uniquely identify the showing, but it's pretty flawed and would be unable to spot the difference between two series of the same name |
[21:07:41] | stuartm: | crucially it means if we tried to start matching series on TVDB using the stored programid we might fetch the wrong metadata because the ones stored for (some) xmltv users aren't true TMS ids |
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