| Wednesday, February 8th, 2012, 00:01 UTC | ||
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| [01:53:49] | taylorr: | davide: I've still got some code I need to commit and little more code to write to get the recorder to track the duration |
| [01:55:15] | taylorr: | hopefully you can help out with it since I don't have any broadcasts (ATSC) with the issues |
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| [15:19:52] | stuartm: | github is down |
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| [15:22:31] | stuarta: | :( |
| [15:22:56] | MythBuild: | build #606 of master-vista-mingw-32bit is complete: Failure [failed git] Build details are at http://code.mythtv.org/buildbot/builders/mast . . . t/builds/606 blamelist: Stuart Morgan <smorgan@mythtv.org > |
| [15:25:28] | stuartm: | nuh-uh! |
| [15:27:28] | stuartm: | https://status.github.com/ << They think it's back up ... it's not |
| [15:33:46] | stuartm: | now it's back |
| [15:40:40] | jams: | github seems to have more then it's fair share of problems |
| [15:49:13] | stuartm: | heh, yeah, certainly couldn't sell stability as one of the benefits of hosting there |
| [16:02:41] | davide_: | taylorr: just let me know when and what you want me to test. |
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| [16:11:51] | Seeker`: | anyone that understands the scheduler able to comment on the feasibility of comparing the inetref of a rule with videometadata to avoid recording stuff already in videos |
| [16:12:53] | MythBuild: | build #607 of master-vista-mingw-32bit is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://code.mythtv.org/buildbot/builders/mast . . . t/builds/607 |
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| [16:40:11] | skd5aner: | Seeker`: might want to try gigem/davide for sheduler stuff |
| [16:51:37] | davide_: | Seeker`: I'm the scheduling guy, but I know nothing about the inetref stuff except that it's for metadata and is iamlindoro's baby. |
| [16:53:09] | wagnerrp: | since you cant expect season/episode for guide data, you would have to do inetref/subtitle for the match |
| [16:53:39] | wagnerrp: | but then youre looking at throwing another subquery into the mix in the scheduler |
| [16:54:02] | davide_: | Does anyone object to changing toString(RecStatusType recstatus, uint cardid) in programtypes.cpp to using inputid instead of cardid? We've put more emphasis on inputs overy the years including the recent input ordering changes. It seems to make sense to displaying inputid in ViewScheduled. |
| [16:54:05] | wagnerrp: | i cant imagine it would be good for performance |
| [16:54:12] | Seeker`: | davide_: tye inetref is set by a user for a recording rule, so it should be safe to assume that if it matches something in the videometadata table it is the same series |
| [16:55:10] | Seeker`: | wagnerrp: could set it as an optional matcher, so users have to enable it, along with a performance warning |
| [16:57:24] | davide_: | I'll have to give it a lot more thought, but my gut reaction is that anything in videos should have an oldrecorded entry if you want that behavior. Sphery's future recordedfile schema changes might make it easier too. |
| [17:00:15] | Seeker`: | davide_: 'oldrecorded entry'? |
| [17:00:30] | wagnerrp: | Seeker`: something in the oldrecorded table |
| [17:00:52] | stuartm: | davide_: I don't like card id because it's an internal ID that isn't immediately obvious to the end user (which is card #15 and which is #43?), input id is even more obscure – each card creates multiple virtual inputs and there's no way to relate those ids back to the physical card without reference to the database – the IDs mean something to the developers and are useful for debugging but nothing else IMHO |
| [17:00:53] | wagnerrp: | oldrecorded is what mythtv uses for duplicate matching |
| [17:01:32] | stuartm: | I'd rather go with what was started for video sources, user-friendly display names but applied to cards |
| [17:03:10] | Seeker`: | wagnerrp: would that not add quite a lot of complexity to deleting recordings / videos? |
| [17:03:31] | wagnerrp: | the complexity is already there for deleting recordings |
| [17:03:32] | stuartm: | and then for each card we could in theory display "Satellite Card 1 – Input 3" or "Comcast STB" |
| [17:03:53] | wagnerrp: | and it would just mean one more table to be managed for videos, i think theres already like seven |
| [17:04:43] | davide_: | stuartm: I have no problem with it if a theme has room and wants to use input name. As far as I'm concerned, that's a separate issue. |
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| [17:19:49] | stuartm: | danielk22: night mode doesn't seem to work as intended here, enabling makes the picture almost impossible to see, it's actually making day time scenes look like the middle of a dark night – which is a little ironic |
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| [17:27:25] | stuartm: | hmm, seems like it's just the picture controls are screwy for this hardware, a 10% drop in brightness is huge, 20% and it's pitch black |
| [17:28:59] | stuartm: | fwiw this is an nvidia card, using vdpau and both brightness and contrast are at the defaults of 50% |
| [17:35:23] | sphery: | Seeker`: Anything like that should definitely start as a custom/power recording rule, and once you get it working, we could add it as a custom example clause. I think it could have some severe performance implications for some users, especially (as users typically have < a couple thousand current recordings, but may have significantly more in mythvideo, so an "unoptimized" duplicate match--not a simple programid comparison--for all those could ... |
| [17:35:29] | sphery: | ... be expensive). |
| [17:50:14] | Seeker`: | sorry, mobile phone connection keeps dying |
| [17:52:00] | Seeker`: | are there really users with more than a couple of thousand videos? |
| [17:52:25] | Seeker`: | i mean significantly more than |
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| [18:01:17] | wagnerrp: | between a large DVD collection, archiving a good chunk of what i record over to mythvideo, plus assorted trailers and other junk internet videos ive collected, ive got a couple thousand videos in there |
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| [18:07:47] | wagnerrp: | Seeker`: storing such information in oldrecorded would make the query a lot simpler, since all the information it would need to pull would be in the same place |
| [18:08:11] | wagnerrp: | shifting the work over to the data manipulation methods of the metadata libraries to populate the necessary tables |
| [18:08:44] | wagnerrp: | but i dont know if there is any actual performance difference between joining all that data from one table, or joining in the same amount of data from two tables |
| [18:25:18] | Seeker`: | wagnerrp: fair enough. ill do some diggng |
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| [19:14:08] | danielk22: | stuartm: Deleted recordings aren't disappearing from my watch recordings list until I leave & re-enter the list. I think it may have something to do with the fix for ADD/UPDATE events.. |
| [19:14:38] | danielk22: | (this is regression over how it worked a few weeks ago). |
| [19:17:29] | danielk22: | I'm using nvidia video cards, it probably has more to do with the brightness of the screen.. I'm open to making it 7,8,9% if that works better. Obviously this does need to be tested at night after your eyes have adjusted to darkness.. |
| [19:19:55] | stuartm: | danielk22: odd, I can't remember changing anything that would have impacted DELETE events |
| [19:20:09] | stuartm: | danielk22: these are recordings deleted on another frontend? |
| [19:21:18] | danielk22: | Same frontend. I haven't looked at the code but thought maybe that those events use a different time format. |
| [19:22:27] | stuartm: | danielk22: even stranger, I can't reproduce here and recordings deleted directly are removed from the list immediately, we don't wait for a DELETE event to arrive first |
| [19:22:43] | stuartm: | or we didn't, I guess that could have changed since I first wrote it |
| [19:24:58] | stuartm: | danielk22: as you say, it could be that the screen's brightness is the issue here, maybe you can confirm that from these screenshots – http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/day.jpeg http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/night.jpeg |
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| [19:26:33] | stuartm: | for me the only actors visible after enabling night mode are the police offer at the right and the two standing in the foreground to the left, everyone else disappears into darkness |
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| [19:31:32] | danielk22: | stuartm: it does look a bit too dark... it looks like when I had it at -15% |
| [19:33:33] | stuartm: | the screen's brightness is set at 68 and contrast at 70, the defaults for this monitor (LG IPS) are 75 and 70 |
| [19:34:22] | stuartm: | 75 is way too bright to my eyes and as it happens every reviewer of this panel |
| [19:37:18] | stuartm: | danielk22: if it's just down to my setup then that's ok, I don't plan on using the feature but the results were so drastic that I felt it was worth mentioning |
| [19:48:44] | davide_: | sphery, danielk22: Do either of you have any opinion regarding inputid vs. cardid on the ViewScheduled screen? |
| [19:57:30] | Seeker`: | the thing is, a calibrated screen doesn't take in to account the surroundings light levels. What you want is |
| [19:57:36] | Seeker`: | a light to turn on behind the TV |
| [19:57:48] | Seeker`: | obviously, thats a bit hard to do in software :P |
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| [20:15:38] | stuartm: | Seeker`: even if I turn out the lights, draw the blackout curtains (it's dark outside anyway) and sit in total darkness for 10 minutes, I still can't make out any more of the picture with nightmode enabled than I can in daylight conditions |
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| [20:20:46] | skd5aner: | yea – that's extremely dark |
| [20:27:33] | Seeker`: | I've not tried nightmode yet (waiting for stuff to stop recording before I upgrade to last nights build). But you're still probably better off spending £5 on a lamp to put behind the TV (if possible) |
| [20:27:39] | Seeker`: | or, even better, an ambilight system |
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| [20:51:08] | skd5aner: | stuartm, danielk22: probably worthwhile to get at least a bit more datapoints on the nightmode setting... and, I hate to suggest it, but could this possibly be one of those times where it might actually make sense for it to be a user-configurable setting? |
| [20:52:50] | skd5aner: | different cards, different outputs (dvi, hdmi, vga, svideo, component, etc.), different driver versions, different OS settings, different xorg settings, different nvidia-settings settings, different panels, different environments, different eye/eyesight, etc... |
| [20:52:51] | Seeker`: | I think it will depend on the TV calibration |
| [20:53:04] | Seeker`: | (mainly, anyway) |
| [20:53:28] | skd5aner: | well, that's what I'm saying Seeker`, no TV is giong to be calibrated the same, and even still, that is only 1 small piece of the overall puzzle – lots of variables here |
| [20:54:21] | skd5aner: | all of those things I mentioned above could impact the brightness or even the percieved brightness |
| [20:54:36] | skd5aner: | 10% worked great for daniel, but looks terrible for stuartm |
| [20:56:14] | skd5aner: | I'm on the side of minimizing settings, but this seems like a case were 10% might be a reasonable default, but I could see this being something people could debate till the cows come home – and no one would be right or wrong, since it's a perception thing |
| [20:56:22] | skd5aner: | s/were/where |
| [20:57:31] | skd5aner: | I did play around a little with my samsung LED tv last night just to see how the auto-sensor was set up – there's a setting where I can tell it the maximum ammount of dimness I'd like it to go... that way there's a basement |
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| [21:22:44] | Seeker`: | As a data point, the default values for night mode don't seem too bad (only had a brief look) |
| [21:29:01] | xavierh: | I don't think having setting is that much of an issue, as long as it is as much as possible transparent for the user. In night mode, adjusting the brightness, should automatically be save for the night mode only, or something similar |
| [21:29:33] | xavierh: | stuartm: did you had the chance to look at #10092 ? |
| [21:31:06] | stuartm: | I've looked at the patch, I've not tested it yet but I promise to do so by the end of tomorrow |
| [21:32:29] | stuartm: | xavierh: I really want more eyes on it though, e.g. danielk22, sphery, Captain_Murdoch and others because it's important that most people are happy with the end result (the settings UI being something that will effect every user and dev) |
| [21:33:19] | Seeker`: | maybe take some screenshots and post it to the -users list? |
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| [21:37:43] | stuartm: | Seeker`: asking on the -users list has always proved to be a complete waste of time in the past, you'll get some users giving genuine feedback but most will act out the role of armchair developers giving us a hundred variations on how they would do it (if only they knew how to program) |
| [21:38:50] | skd5aner: | stuartm: given what I was saying above, would you still be against a setting? |
| [21:39:02] | skd5aner: | (go easy on me for suggesting such a thing) |
| [21:39:16] | stuartm: | skd5aner: I was never against a setting for this (that I recall) :) |
| [21:39:23] | xavierh: | Seeker`: my current theme is not that great |
| [21:39:37] | skd5aner: | heh – I just meant, since I was suggesting any setting at all... 1 step forward 1 step back ;) |
| [21:40:19] | skd5aner: | stuartm: I just think several things could have a reasonable default, but this might be too subjective for that |
| [21:40:58] | xavierh: | skd5aner: but there is soooooo many settings, believe me, I almost converted all of the to MythUI now, and I can say they are all over the place, and not necessarily in a logical order |
| [21:41:06] | skd5aner: | I guarentee that even if I used the exact same frontend, that 10% would look different on all three of my TVs... maybe not much different, but potentially – and I already see a huge different if I use HDMI vs VGA vs Component |
| [21:41:15] | skd5aner: | (via the same video card/frontend) |
| [21:42:03] | stuartm: | Seeker`: user feedback pretty much into the following template – "yeah, that {looks ok/sucks}, but I'd have done {insert insanely complex solution/radical but impractical solution}, only {I have no time/I don't know how to program/expect you guys to do all the work}" |
| [21:42:16] | skd5aner: | xavierh: yea, I know... hence why I'm trying to throw the suggestion out there gently... but just because there's a bunch of bad ones doesn't mean there aren't cases where new ones shouldn't be considered – they should just go through extra scrutiny, that's all |
| [21:42:37] | skd5aner: | stuartm: lol... spot on! |
| [21:42:56] | ** skd5aner hides because he's sure you could find at least a few cases from way back then where he followed that script ** | |
| [21:43:04] | jams: | skd5aner- i think people were ok with a setting if it went in the OSD, just like the v4l ctrl once were. |
| [21:43:18] | xavierh: | skd5aner: I'm not saying there are bad, it's just that much of them, I'm not too sure what there are for |
| [21:43:28] | stuartm: | xavierh: there is very little logic to the order/grouping of settings, it's one thing that desperately needs improving and one of the arguments for ingesting major plugins into the frontend (overlap of settings) |
| [21:43:41] | Seeker`: | stuartm: yeah, just ignore anything other than the first {/} |
| [21:44:06] | skd5aner: | jams: yea, I don't really care where I guess... ultimately, a toggle would work best |
| [21:44:24] | skd5aner: | jams: but if you could at least say what % that toggle goes to, that's what's important I guess |
| [21:44:29] | xavierh: | stuartm: and mix Global/Local one the same screen ... |
| [21:44:38] | stuartm: | xavierh: aye, that too |
| [21:44:38] | jams: | skd5aner- if they are in the osd then you can see real time the change. |
| [21:44:52] | skd5aner: | yea – that would be ideal |
| [21:44:52] | Seeker`: | xavierh: which theme do you use? |
| [21:44:56] | stuartm: | xavierh: placing backend settings in the frontend is another problem |
| [21:45:37] | skd5aner: | I'd have done exactly that jams, only I have not time, I don't know how to program, and I expect stuartm and danielk to do all the work |
| [21:45:44] | ** skd5aner ducks ** | |
| [21:45:48] | xavierh: | stuartm: I don't think it is a problem but it should be obvious there are for the backend and grouped all together |
| [21:46:34] | jams: | hehe |
| [21:47:06] | stuartm: | jams / skd5aner: actually there's an idea there, a better purpose built popup for picture controls (instead of overloading the status/progress dialog) would put all controls up on screen at once, it could then have a button saying "Save as Night Mode" |
| [21:47:42] | stuartm: | xavierh: backend settings shouldn't be in the frontend IMHO, they should be in mythtv-setup |
| [21:47:45] | xavierh: | Seeker': For development, I am using Terra as it is the default, and I have create the xml file only for the default (not terra) |
| [21:48:58] | xavierh: | stuartm: it is nice to be able to change the settings from the frontend thought, and I can not wait to be able all the scanning, source ... from the frontend too |
| [21:49:26] | xavierh: | s/able all/able to change all |
| [21:49:30] | jams: | stuartm- yes that sounds like an excellent idea |
| [21:49:45] | skd5aner: | xavierh: you won't do those tings from the frontend – most likely, from the web based interface which is currently in development as a replacement for mythtv-setup |
| [21:50:43] | xavierh: | skd5aner: the api will potentially allow to do it from the frontend too |
| [21:51:34] | Seeker`: | xavierh: able to post a screenshot of the settings so I can see (not in a position to be able to apply the patch atm) |
| [21:51:55] | skd5aner: | xavierh: and someone is planning on building an interface within the frontend to utilize those APIs? |
| [21:52:37] | xavierh: | xavierh: why not me? don't know, but why not . |
| [21:54:01] | xavierh: | Seeker`: I am rebuilding atm, and my laptop is not very quick so ... later |
| [21:54:13] | Seeker`: | xavierh: ok, I can wait :) |
| [22:00:28] | xris: | resyncing alcor's /opt dir. might as well try to do something productive while unemployed and get the server moved. |
| [22:03:41] | sphery: | stuartm: don't forget, |
| [22:03:56] | sphery: | "Save as Tuesday mode" or "Save as Blue Moon mode" or ... |
| [22:04:22] | sphery: | (just saying that I'm sure we'll get suggestions to allow infinite modes before long :) |
| [22:04:22] | stuartm: | sphery: I read that as "Save as Blue Movie mode" |
| [22:06:15] | sphery: | skd5aner: fwiw, no one (not even me), is against a setting /iff/ it makes sense to have one. The only requirement is that it not be buried in the settings UI (so it's a "live setting" meaning you see the effect as you change it), and, ideally, it wouldn't even introduce any new concepts--i.e. if you adjust brightness and contrast, it's saved, but it's saved into the current mode's settings (meaning if you're in night mode and you change the ... |
| [22:06:21] | sphery: | ... picture settings, they're saved for night mode) |
| [22:06:52] | sphery: | but at this point we're actually in the "determine if it makes sense" stage--not trying to decide whether to allow a setting for it |
| [22:07:12] | skd5aner: | yea – I only stepped lightly because the conversation the other day was aimed at finding a respectable default and hoping to avoid a setting at all |
| [22:08:37] | sphery: | yes, which should always be the aim... only when it's proven that we don't/can't figure out what to do should we be interrupting a user--who just wants to watch TV--to force them to make a decision for us |
| [22:10:00] | sphery: | this is why so many fail when trying to use mythtv--they figure, "I'll just set it up and see if I like it," but then they find out there are a couple hours of setup involved plus a lot of learning about TV tech/MythTV terminology/jargon/design/... |
| [22:10:48] | sphery: | so the more we can "just do the right thing," the better for everyone |
| [22:16:14] | xavierh: | Seeker`: frontend setting http://imagebin.org/197976 http://imagebin.org/197977 http://imagebin.org/197978 http://imagebin.org/197979 http://imagebin.org/197980 http://imagebin.org/197981 |
| [22:16:38] | xavierh: | Seeker`: not very pretty but functionnal |
| [22:18:55] | Seeker`: | xavierh: *drool* |
| [22:19:46] | jams: | xavierh- pretty decent looking |
| [22:19:49] | xavierh: | Seeker`; thank you, now I have too look for a dictionary :) |
| [22:20:10] | Seeker`: | xavierh: why? |
| [22:20:22] | skd5aner: | xavierh: I like what you've done thus far, do you mind if I offer some constructive criticism? |
| [22:21:16] | xavierh: | Seeker`: English is not my native language |
| [22:21:25] | Seeker`: | xavierh: what is? |
| [22:21:26] | xavierh: | skd5aner: go ahead |
| [22:21:27] | skd5aner: | The layout seems a little "flat" – almost like I'm looking at a list, or rows on a spreadsheet. I'm not quite sure of the association of settings and the relation that one row might have with the one beneath it.... |
| [22:21:57] | Seeker`: | skd5aner: I assume that is down to theming rather than the patch? |
| [22:21:58] | skd5aner: | It's clean, but at the same time from a UX perspective, there's nothing that really groups related items together... |
| [22:22:53] | skd5aner: | Seeker`: could be... yea, and I don't mean to say it as a knock on your work thus far xavierh... just that it might need some polishing and perhaps you haven't gotten that far yet... so, take what I say with a grain of salt :) |
| [22:22:54] | xavierh: | skd5aner: the goal is to avoid themer too much work, none of the theme are complete AFAIK |
| [22:23:55] | Seeker`: | xavierh: Is there an option to group together the settings? Then just allow the themer to define what to do between groups (i.e. insert image X, add a space) |
| [22:23:59] | jams: | skd5aner- are you referring to how the old settings sometimes had little grouping boxes |
| [22:24:33] | xavierh: | skd5aner: and I grouped the setting the way it was before |
| [22:24:50] | skd5aner: | jams: sorta... at least visually I understood the grouping and relationships of settings... right now this looks like a flat list almost like I was going down the rows of a database of settings |
| [22:25:21] | skd5aner: | no visual weight given to one versus the other either |
| [22:25:39] | xavierh: | skd5aner: and there are grouped see http://imagebin.org/197978 and http://imagebin.org/197979 |
| [22:26:26] | Seeker`: | xavierh: I think skd5aner means that there isn't a seperation between "Directory that holds film fanart" and "On DVD insertion" |
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| [22:26:35] | skd5aner: | xavierh: if I break down what i see there... I see a list 10 settings – but I wouldn't say that directory settings have anything to do with "On DVD Insertion" for example |
| [22:26:40] | xavierh: | Seeker`: atm no, why not. but they should be properly order before |
| [22:26:56] | skd5aner: | but it's not just order... it's layout |
| [22:26:59] | xavierh: | Seeker`: yes that would be easy to do actually |
| [22:27:15] | jams: | skd5aner- i sorta see what your saying. Frankly for mythvideo it looks like a 1:1 conversion. |
| [22:27:17] | xavierh: | layout is a tree |
| [22:27:31] | skd5aner: | xavierh: again – no criticism to what you've already done... just thinking from a pure design perspective (which I like to think I have a keen eye for), it's rather "flat" and ambiguous right now |
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| [22:28:05] | jams: | i think a triggered configuration would probably show more/ be interesting to talk about. |
| [22:28:14] | xavierh: | I have done a 1:1 conversion, I just remove most of the group without title |
| [22:28:17] | skd5aner: | "triggered" ? |
| [22:28:33] | skd5aner: | xavierh: have you done the audio setup screen under general settings? |
| [22:28:35] | xavierh: | triggered: the bottom one it |
| [22:28:36] | Seeker`: | skd5aner: expandable options at a guess |
| [22:28:42] | skd5aner: | what does that look like now, if you could take a screenshot? |
| [22:28:43] | xavierh: | s/it/is |
| [22:28:58] | xavierh: | http://imagebin.org/197978 and http://imagebin.org/197979 |
| [22:29:21] | skd5aner: | xavierh: the audio setup screen under general settings, not the mythvideo ones |
| [22:29:24] | skd5aner: | just as a curiousity |
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| [22:29:41] | xavierh: | My first attempt was too use a tree, but I had some trouble to update it for VideoModes |
| [22:29:56] | Seeker`: | I think just having some sort of spacer between groups of settings (possibly with a heading) would be sufficient |
| [22:29:57] | jams: | skd5aner- triggered..where the value of a combobox dictates what settings are shown for it. |
| [22:30:43] | xavierh: | I am working on videomode at the moment, audio mode it not at the top of my list as there is already a MythUI version of it |
| [22:31:29] | xavierh: | Anyway, my goal is to get ride of QWidget... |
| [22:32:11] | xavierh: | jams: I can show an other one if you like, do you remember on (apart for audio) |
| [22:32:18] | skd5aner: | Settings | General Settings is mythui? |
| [22:32:26] | xavierh: | yes |
| [22:32:38] | skd5aner: | oh, ok... so which settings aren't? |
| [22:32:38] | xavierh: | I believe |
| [22:33:10] | xavierh: | in trunk or in my build ? |
| [22:33:28] | skd5aner: | trunk |
| [22:33:33] | xavierh: | no |
| [22:33:40] | xavierh: | it is QWidget |
| [22:33:44] | xavierh: | based |
| [22:33:58] | stuartm: | xavierh: there is a file browsing dialog that should really be used where we're entering a path |
| [22:34:42] | xavierh: | Is it new? I didn't find it 4 month ago |
| [22:34:59] | stuartm: | mythuifilebrowser.h |
| [22:35:03] | xavierh: | cool |
| [22:36:28] | Seeker`: | xavierh: Could I suggest a CreateLabel() sort of function, which lets people name the groups of settings? |
| [22:36:28] | stuartm: | that's really odd, it's been missed by Doxygen |
| [22:37:39] | stuartm: | danielk22: as our resident doxygen expert, any theories as to why MythUIFileBrowser is missing from the docs? |
| [22:37:51] | skd5aner: | stuartm: in mythui is it possible to have a scrolling screen? in other words, instead of paginating settings across multiple screens (next... next... next), could you have a screen that contains settings with a verticle scroll? |
| [22:38:09] | stuartm: | I wonder if the Q_DECLARE_METATYPE macro is tripping it up |
| [22:38:24] | stuartm: | skd5aner: no, not currently |
| [22:39:12] | stuartm: | skd5aner: it's not especially remote/tv friendly which is why it's never been done, even when we were using QT for everything |
| [22:39:45] | stuartm: | well, that's the given reason, it has been done successfully by a few other devices |
| [22:40:30] | xavierh: | skd5aner: I have scrolling setting for Playback setting |
| [22:40:37] | jams: | xavierh- i see you did include a triggered setting. As you mentioned the parental level |
| [22:40:45] | xavierh: | yep |
| [22:41:45] | xavierh: | I don't think I have one with ComboBox, but it is already implemented, you basically change the selection and the "children" change accordingly |
| [22:42:01] | skd5aner: | xavierh: a basic example of the UX/UI design I'm talking about for settings would be like this – http://www.cybertopcops.com/guide_images/firefox-settings-02.jpg – where the settings aren't simply just a flat list... |
| [22:42:19] | skd5aner: | (just a random example I was trying to find via google images) |
| [22:42:22] | jams: | the only one left with a combobox is in the profile editor (i think) |
| [22:43:34] | xavierh: | I haven't done the setting where you can add or remove yet |
| [22:43:42] | skd5aner: | stuartm: but, a scrolling screen, in theory, wouldn't necessarily be a problem for a remote/tv environment... I'm thinking of setting's menus I've seen on TVs and STBs where you can jump down through settings and when you get to the bottom third the screen automatically scrolls up to show there's options beneath |
| [22:43:56] | skd5aner: | whether that's easy to implement is a different story |
| [22:44:20] | skd5aner: | but, it would be nicer for things that fit within a category to stay on the same relative page versus paginating settings |
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| [22:45:15] | xris: | anyone know what other services we have running on www? I can sync most files in /opt but need to rebuild /etc by hand because of version differences. |
| [22:45:32] | stuartm: | skd5aner: that's what we have now with the QT settings, there are two issues with that – remote navigation means jumping all around the place (left/right/up/down) and then how do you select items in dropdowns, if down also moves to the widget below? Plus it's infinitely more complicated to actually produce code to automatically layout a page like that (vs manually theming everything) |
| [22:46:23] | skd5aner: | stuartm: maybe not an apples to apples comparison, but maybe formatting the settings screens to be "1" screen... similiar to the upcoming recordings screen... on the left, you have a selectable list "general settings, audio settings, video settings" and when one of those is selected, the right panel on the screen shows the relative settings on 1 page |
| [22:46:39] | skd5aner: | way easier to jump around and find what you're looking for |
| [22:46:43] | stuartm: | skd5aner: we can offer the same grouping though in the format that xavierh is suggesting |
| [22:47:08] | skd5aner: | yea, that's what sparked some of my neurons firing :) |
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| [22:47:42] | stuartm: | xavierh: have you considered a second buttonlist running horizontally across the top to change the group (or page)? You might be able to imagine what I'm thinking from skd5aner's firefox screenshot with the tabs |
| [22:48:21] | jams: | stuarta- similiar to the status page? |
| [22:48:28] | jams: | stuartm ^ |
| [22:48:31] | stuartm: | skd5aner: that's pretty much what I've just mentioned to xavierh, although orientated differently |
| [22:48:33] | skd5aner: | jams: yes |
| [22:48:44] | xavierh: | stuartm: yes I had this in mind |
| [22:49:03] | skd5aner: | stuartm, xavierh: or on the left hand side, either way – like this wordpress settings example: http://robertokoci.com/images/posts/seo/wordp . . . settings.png |
| [22:49:08] | stuartm: | jams: upcoming recordings page in Terra is a better example (same principal though) |
| [22:50:05] | stuartm: | http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/terra_upcomingrec3.png |
| [22:50:18] | skd5aner: | yea, exactly, only a little more compact maybe |
| [22:50:33] | xavierh: | stuartm: How do you navigate on them ? |
| [22:51:05] | xavierh: | s/on/with |
| [22:51:22] | stuartm: | xavierh: if that example left/right moves between days, up/down between programmes – so left/right between groups/pages and up/down to navigate the settings |
| [22:51:40] | skd5aner: | xavierh: arclight's upcoming recording's screen is a good example too |
| [22:52:20] | xavierh: | I am using up/down to navigate in the list, left/right to go one level up or down, enter to edit a setting, esc to open the exit prompt |
| [22:52:21] | skd5aner: | it uses a verticle rather than horizontal method |
| [22:53:03] | skd5aner: | stuartm: question – is this purely a theme design issue? |
| [22:53:08] | xavierh: | I understand, but how do you gor from the vertical list to the horizontal one ? |
| [22:53:28] | skd5aner: | you scroll all the way to the top |
| [22:53:32] | xavierh: | ok |
| [22:53:35] | stuartm: | skd5aner: no, it would be a code level decision |
| [22:53:44] | skd5aner: | ok |
| [22:53:57] | skd5aner: | I'm going to play around and create a mockup of something... |
| [22:54:25] | xavierh: | stuartm: not necessarily |
| [22:55:20] | stuartm: | xavierh: in other words, we'd have to drop 'sub-level' stuff and flatten it out a little, anything currently in a sub-menu would have it's own page/group ... in theory (not saying that this is what you should do, just playing with the idea) |
| [22:56:37] | xris: | ok, request submitted to osu to move rsync over to alcor |
| [22:57:08] | stuartm: | one advantage of doing it that way is that it would be easier to remember where settings are, we can associate icons with each page/grouping ... |
| [22:58:00] | xavierh: | I was thinking about this, the same way you have different picture in the main menu |
| [22:58:01] | stuartm: | xavierh: layout being vertical vs horizontal would be theme level, but having two lists instead of one would need code changes |
| [22:58:43] | xavierh: | stuartm: but it could still be done according to the theme |
| [22:59:00] | stuartm: | xavierh: we can easily do that, either with a stateptype (as in the menus) or by hardcoding icon names – statetypes are way more flexible but can grow to be pretty big when used in this way |
| [22:59:29] | stuartm: | xavierh: yes, you could arrange it differently based on the presence of the second list |
| [23:00:19] | stuartm: | my reponse to skd5aner is that it's not _purely_ a theme driven matter, you do need underlying code to make it happen |
| [23:00:58] | xavierh: | stuartm: I have yet to use statetype to give a indication to the user on what kind of data the he wil manipulate (spinbox, combobox ...) |
| [23:01:29] | stuartm: | anyway, one of the cats has jumped up behind me on the chair and is trying to push me off it, I'm going to take that as a signal that it's time to call it a night |
| [23:01:30] | xavierh: | s/the he will/the user will |
| [23:01:38] | stuartm: | xavierh: that's a good idea |
| [23:01:40] | xavierh: | :) |
| [23:01:44] | xavierh: | you too |
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| [23:04:52] | skd5aner: | stuartm: gone yet? |
| [23:11:29] | skd5aner: | stuartm, xavierh, jams: http://imagebin.org/197998 – here's my really crappy 5 min mock-up... |
| [23:11:56] | skd5aner: | You'd simply select "Settings" from the home page, and this screen would appear... |
| [23:12:22] | xris: | skd5aner: what about all of those people with 4:3 TVs? ;) |
| [23:12:25] | skd5aner: | no heirarchy, no seperate pages for general versus plugins versus playback, etc... 1 page... |
| [23:12:47] | skd5aner: | xris – move the left verticle bar as a top horizontal bar |
| [23:12:52] | stichnot: | xavierh and all: I notice that in a top-level menu, Right does nothing and Esc lets me go back, but in a sub-menu, Right goes back and Esc goes back all the way to the top. I wonder if it's easy to make this more consistent. |
| [23:13:39] | xris: | skd5aner: or collapse the left bar when it's not focused. |
| [23:13:48] | xris: | like on a tablet app |
| [23:13:57] | skd5aner: | xris: yea, that'd be cool (expecially if animated) |
| [23:14:27] | xavierh: | stichnot: such as ? |
| [23:14:46] | skd5aner: | xavierh: so, you'd enter the settings screen, and focus would start on the left verticle menu... if you wanted to go to video settings, you'd hit down, then hit right to enter the settings... then you would use up/down to go through a single page of all the settings |
| [23:14:50] | xris: | there are a lot of really cool things we could do with the overall UX.. if we had time/motivation from people actually capable of doing the work. :) |
| [23:15:09] | xavierh: | sk5aner: there is too many setting too put only one hierarchy |
| [23:15:10] | skd5aner: | I've got a good friend who does it for a living, and a hobby... |
| [23:15:12] | stichnot: | xavierh: sorry, I meant Left, not Right |
| [23:15:20] | skd5aner: | xavierh: why? |
| [23:15:29] | skd5aner: | xavierh: you could scroll indefinitely... |
| [23:15:49] | skd5aner: | xavier... load arclight and go to the upcoming recordings screen... just like that |
| [23:15:56] | xavierh: | Could be annoying to get a setting at the bottom of the page |
| [23:16:16] | skd5aner: | less annoying than clicking "next" 6 times to get to page 7 of general settings? |
| [23:16:22] | stichnot: | xavierh: perhaps esc and left would both go up exactly one level, exiting the tree if already at the top level? |
| [23:17:07] | Seeker`: | xavierh: press 'up' to go the bottom setting :P |
| [23:17:27] | jams: | i say let him finish the 1:1 conversion before scaring him off. |
| [23:17:39] | skd5aner: | jams: fair enough... just trying to think ahead |
| [23:17:49] | jams: | :) |
| [23:17:53] | xavierh: | jams: thx |
| [23:18:18] | skd5aner: | xavierh: I think you're doing a good job, by the way, not trying to criticize – just offer a vision perhaps |
| [23:18:29] | xavierh: | skd5aner: I want to reorganise he setting, but I feel it is nt me to take the decision |
| [23:18:43] | xavierh: | s/he/the |
| [23:19:36] | skd5aner: | my biggest complaint is having to "settings dive" through a dozen different top-level settings categories and then a hundred different screens to find the setting I'm looking for – this model provides 1 top level setting, where you can easily search across without having to exit and re-enter something different and then find the page it's on |
| [23:20:25] | xavierh: | skd5aner: me too, but it is mainly because it is not always done in a logical way |
| [23:20:56] | skd5aner: | oh, and maybe my mockup is a little confusing, when I say "all settings on one screen" – I actually mean, all settings within a particular category on 1 scrollable screen... |
| [23:21:03] | xavierh: | and this design does not have the next next next flaw, like wizard had |
| [23:21:23] | skd5aner: | cool |
| [23:22:10] | xavierh: | anyway, I was planning to do some work today :) |
| [23:22:13] | stichnot: | xavierh: I *love* the new way of selecting Subtitle Font, Subtitle Codec, etc. |
| [23:22:36] | xavierh: | did you try the patch ? |
| [23:23:12] | stichnot: | yes (if you're talking to me...) |
| [23:23:25] | xavierh: | stichnot: yes I was |
| [23:26:19] | xavierh: | stichnot: I was thinking of having esc/left doing the same, but I was waiting of using it a bit more before, to know what *feel* right, and it is a very small change so ... |
| [23:26:57] | stichnot: | ok, it's good to hear that it's a small change. |
| [23:28:02] | stichnot: | I also realize that you have attacked limited subtrees of the entire settings UI, so there are bound to be inconsistencies for now when crossing the boundaries. |
| [23:30:28] | xavierh: | I cannot manage to see the xrand setting any idea why? I am trying to convert it but as I do not have any video mode for some reason ... |
| [23:30:30] | stichnot: | Have you looked into the Audio settings and the Playback Profiles page? Those are the "weird" ones that I know of. |
| [23:30:51] | xavierh: | audio setting will be easy |
| [23:31:11] | xavierh: | Playback profile, less easy but I have some idea |
| [23:31:31] | xavierh: | wil need to code it to see if it is practical |
| [23:41:11] | stichnot: | I am happy that the functionality is there, and that legacy non-MythUI code is reduced. Making it pretty is just a simple matter of programming, right? :) |
| [23:53:22] | stichnot: | Going into armchair mode, I would love to be able to see/edit frontend settings on a single web page (though one that is a bit less flat and terse than the mythweb settings page...) |
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