| Thursday, January 26th, 2012, 00:10 UTC | ||
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| [01:04:02] | skd5aner: | xris: about time ;) |
| [01:04:17] | skd5aner: | xris: been trying to convience you for years it's not /that/ hard |
| [01:04:20] | ** skd5aner ducks and hiddes ** | |
| [01:04:26] | skd5aner: | err, hides even |
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| [01:50:32] | rhpot1991: | with the new service api coming in 0.25, will the perl bindings still exist? |
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| [02:14:24] | sphery: | rhpot1991: It will still be there, but is still not the preferred approach for creating new scripts. Perl bindings need to be updated to catch up with Python bindings and, possibly, to use the services API where possible rather than direct DB access. |
| [02:14:37] | iamlindoro: | rhpot1991: Yes, there's no current proposal to remove them-- at most in the future they'd likely be modified auto-generate from the Services API WSDL |
| [02:15:53] | wagnerrp: | did the WSDL pages ever get fixed? |
| [02:18:20] | rhpot1991: | sphery: iamlindoro thanks, was concerned about my dependency going away |
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| [02:21:03] | iamlindoro: | wagnerrp: I don't think they've been touched |
| [02:22:04] | wagnerrp: | IIRC, theres something with it not documenting types used in qvariantlists |
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| [03:05:57] | warriorforGod: | I have installed mythbuntu 11.10 and I am noticing a couple of issues. When running mythfrontend locally, I can't see any of my content, and nothing external to the myth box can see it at all. Any suggestions? |
| [03:06:22] | wagnerrp: | see topic, go to correct channel (#mythtv-users) |
| [03:06:40] | warriorforGod: | Whoops. My Bad. Thanks. |
| [03:49:14] | xris: | skd5aner: yeah, it was easier than I thought to add it. thing is, I want to completely redesign the service |
| [03:49:47] | xris: | iamlindoro: you think it's safe to sort the high res icons to the top of search results? |
| [03:50:05] | xris: | the current schema doesn't recognize different versions of the same logo |
| [03:50:21] | iamlindoro: | xris: I've been using the high res icons for a few years, I can't see any issue with them being the top returns |
| [03:50:28] | iamlindoro: | so sounds good to me :) |
| [03:50:37] | xris: | yeah, figured. :) |
| [03:51:44] | xris: | now to figure out how to do that. |
| [03:56:13] | xris: | yeah. looks like we'd have to go manually reassign everything after import. that'd suck. |
| [04:05:56] | ** xris ponders how much work it would be to create an open database to compete against lyngsat ** | |
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| [04:12:52] | xris: | anyone know if the dvb and atsc ID triplets are completely unique? |
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| [04:21:03] | xris: | stuartm / skd5aner: I forget which one of you asked about fixing the sort of the icons.. code to me looks like it's sorting each diminishing pass of search string length's results by name. but not the whole list. |
| [04:23:04] | skd5aner: | xris: honestly – if we did away and started from scratch, I'm not sure that'd be a bad thing... |
| [04:23:23] | xris: | skd5aner: right. |
| [04:23:27] | skd5aner: | xris: I know I've spent probably at least a hundred hours, but that is still less than 10% |
| [04:23:45] | xris: | yeah. would rather open it up in such a way that more people can submit/edit. |
| [04:23:46] | skd5aner: | just seems like it's a never ending job – and that said, it's all the low res icons anyway |
| [04:24:10] | xris: | plus, organize it in a more sane fashion. types like corporate, network, affiliate, independent |
| [04:24:24] | xris: | add start/stop dates for things like the WB->CW rename |
| [04:24:24] | skd5aner: | xris: yea, because I'm spending a LOT of time per xmltvid to verify that the icon is correct – people are going to know their own market way better than I can do by research and best guess |
| [04:24:49] | xris: | yeah. I mostly just assume that if there are a dozen or more submissions for an icon, I approve it. |
| [04:25:32] | xris: | and a real search engine. solr or elasticsearch |
| [04:25:42] | skd5aner: | stuartm: ^ – I would obviously appreciate your opinion as well, but just my $.02. I haven't done anything probably in about 5–6 months, but the amount of work I was doing for North America, just seemed like it was a never ending job AND then by the time you finish, networks are likely to have a new icon by then... heh |
| [04:27:04] | xris: | I tried to get some consensus/help from the xmltv people a few years ago but no one wanted to take any initiative. and I didn't want to do so and step on toes |
| [04:27:08] | skd5aner: | xris: anyway – I think the system "works" – but obviously is just uterly inefficient – I'm sure it'd be easier to redesign from scratch than try to improve upon what we've got (that's not a knock on the current system) |
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| [04:27:17] | skd5aner: | xris: yea, I understand |
| [04:27:23] | xris: | the code has always been hackish |
| [04:27:40] | xris: | at this point I'd rather rewrite it in python, and cleanly... |
| [04:27:54] | skd5aner: | :) |
| [04:28:10] | skd5aner: | well, I can't help out much with that... but if there is a way I can help in the new system, I'd be happy to do so |
| [04:28:39] | skd5aner: | I still think the concept of a moderator makes sense – even in a social/community based model |
| [04:31:11] | xris: | yeah, even wikipedia needs moderators. |
| [04:31:36] | xris: | I'm about to get laid off (and get a new job). not sure what my time will be like. |
| [04:31:58] | skd5aner: | I can tell you one thing about the old service that bugged me – no way to undo a selection OR to manually edit a specifc xmltvid |
| [04:32:13] | xris: | but new job will likely be less challenging than other things so I suspect I'll be looking for ways to express my need to work on big things. |
| [04:32:30] | xris: | yup. it was only ever meant as a proof of concept. |
| [04:33:00] | xris: | I'll dig up my xmltv notes from a couple years ago and see if I can rebuild a couple of schemas from that.. |
| [04:33:05] | skd5aner: | It'd also be nice if you could somehow correlate the xmltvid to the station name, then sort by the station... that way, for example, you could find all of the XMLTVIDs for "HBO" and do a mass update |
| [04:33:52] | skd5aner: | xris: that's something I might be able to provide feedback on, if you've got a schema/design/high-level architecture/flow-chart/etc... |
| [04:34:43] | skd5aner: | anyway – off to bed – good luck on it when/if you start to take on the challenge of re-writting the service :) |
| [04:40:58] | skd5aner: | xris: oh, and sorry to hear about the job :/ – But, at the same time, good luck at the new one – hope it's a good fit for you! I'm in an industry that's heavy in layoffs, so it's something I have to account for on an all too often basis anymore :-/ |
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| [06:26:52] | xris: | created a new project on github to track this new channel service thing. not sure if I would want it to go to mythtv or to SD (which might be able to negotiate licenses to additional data, should we ever want/need it). skd5aner, stuartm, kormoc, iamlindoro, let me know if you guys want access. |
| [06:26:53] | xris: | https://github.com/ex-nerd/channel-service |
| [06:40:17] | wagnerrp: | xris: is this just for channel icons, or for digital lineups in general? |
| [06:41:52] | xris: | channels |
| [06:42:04] | xris: | maybe to eventually merge with some of the stuff robertk is doing |
| [06:42:14] | wagnerrp: | might want to talk to.... yeah, was about to mention that |
| [06:43:22] | xris: | yeah, we're working on some other stuff for SD, too. |
| [06:43:33] | xris: | TMS has a new raw data format. xml stuff with some extra info in it. |
| [06:44:01] | xris: | robert really wants to get a service up and running to get SD off of the data direct servers |
| [06:44:29] | wagnerrp: | does that come with reduced costs? or increased flexibility? |
| [06:48:43] | xris: | noe |
| [06:48:45] | xris: | nope |
| [06:49:03] | xris: | just a convoluted xml format instead of a convoluted pipe-delimited format. |
| [06:51:50] | xris: | the only real differences I know of are that the xml format supports longer description fields (500+ chars) and they have a master ID value that refers to all revisions of an entry (e.g. main english version of a movie, spanish dubbed version, edited-for-tv version, etc) |
| [07:03:48] | wagnerrp: | are you planning on doing some kind of real framework for other services? or just this one? |
| [07:08:02] | xris: | undecided. |
| [07:08:27] | xris: | but probably at least start with something general. uwsgi + nginx |
| [07:08:58] | xris: | would like to be able to open source the json-rpc server I wrote for work |
| [07:09:02] | xris: | and use that |
| [07:31:53] | dekarl_zZz: | xris: for dvb onid:sid is designed to be globally unique (but if the operater messed up, you can add onid:tid:sid to allow overrides. E.g. we had a duplicate sid in DVB-T Berlin for some years) |
| [07:32:30] | xris: | ok, that's what I remember. |
| [07:32:39] | xris: | just wondering if it's globally unique against atsc, too |
| [07:34:45] | dekarl_zZz: | doesnt ATSC use completely different IDs? |
| [07:36:44] | dekarl_zZz: | ATSC/SCTE does use program_number/service_id, but doesn't do anything similar to the onid:tid IIRC |
| [08:09:56] | xris: | skd5aner: very rough first draft: https://github.com/ex-nerd/channel-service/bl . . . atatypes.rst |
| [08:14:33] | dekarl_zZz: | looks nice but appears to model the US tv business relations (which are upside down when viewed with german experience :) |
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| [08:34:28] | xris: | skd5aner: and https://github.com/ex-nerd/channel-service/bl . . . /classes.rst (my rst code isn't so good on that one. no time to clean it up now) |
| [08:41:18] | markk: | jya: out of curiosity – if you were to define/setup 2 different audio devices – would all of the settings be duplicated for each? or would some be 'global'? |
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| [09:02:01] | stuartm: | xris: yeah, I fixed the sorting so that the best matches remained at the top of the list, previously the whole list was sorted and it destroyed the structure burying the best matches sometimes beyond the 100 channel limit we impose in mythtv-setup (for performance reasons) |
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| [16:43:09] | sphery: | markk (or anyone else who might know): The other day I was doing some testing to try to repro a failure that I thought might be related to Qt/MySQL version, and when I tried Qt 4.8, I noticed that when using ssh X forwarding, MythTV chose the Qt painter, but on my (software-GL) display it seemed that Qt was using GL--I could see screens drawn without transitions (so not our GL painter), but the screen filled in from top to bottom slow enough ... |
| [16:43:15] | sphery: | ... that I could watch it draw. Has Qt gone to OpenGL-only drawing (or OpenGL when they think it will work)? If so, does this have any implications for the future of our Qt painter? |
| [17:08:27] | markk: | sphery: they have a 'pure' opengl painting engine – you can force it with an environment variable – and they may have enabled that by default in 4.8 (though I would have thought they'd be checking for hardware acceleration as well). |
| [17:08:48] | markk: | I seem to remember getting issues when I forced it on |
| [17:10:52] | sphery: | well, mythfrontend was running on a system with nvidia gpu + nvidia proprietary drivers, but I was displaying it via ssh forwarding on a system with AMD GPU + FLOSS driver... so maybe they don't have as fancy a check for GL support as the one you came up with for us :) |
| [17:11:21] | sphery: | it draws fast with Qt painter or OpenGL painter when displayed locally on that machine... |
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| [17:26:39] | markk: | sphery : probably not something to worry about just yet |
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| [17:31:38] | sphery: | markk: yeah... was just wondering as it seems a lot of users are starting to use Qt 4.8, so figure we'll get some questions. Anyway, on a different note, In IRC (back in Nov--when you were between homes, I think), we had a user whose frontend was choosing GL, but it seemed to be using software GL. http://ext.earthtools.ca/download/fe.log is log file... should be be going to Qt for that? (like softpipe in renderer or something?) |
| [17:32:07] | ** clever waves ** | |
| [17:32:23] | sphery: | clever: that was you? couldn't remember who it was... :) |
| [17:32:36] | clever: | yeah |
| [17:32:52] | clever: | i think the root problem is that the myth user didnt have access to the special /dev/ nodes for hardware gl |
| [17:33:08] | clever: | but myth should either give an obvious error, or fall back to qt |
| [17:33:15] | clever: | it shouldnt try to use software gl and lag like hell |
| [17:33:35] | sphery: | clever: do you get different info in the GL init section of the frontend logs, now that you've configured access? or is it still the same gallium softpipe stuff? |
| [17:33:54] | ** clever looks ** | |
| [17:34:24] | clever: | 2012-01–16 23:37:15.139946 I OpenGL: OpenGL vendor : Tungsten Graphics, Inc |
| [17:34:24] | clever: | 2012-01–16 23:37:15.139957 I OpenGL: OpenGL renderer: Mesa DRI Intel(R) 945G |
| [17:34:24] | clever: | 2012-01–16 23:37:15.139965 I OpenGL: OpenGL version : 1.4 Mesa 7.10.3 |
| [17:34:55] | clever: | 2012-01–16 23:37:15.139987 I OpenGL: Max texture size: 2048 x 2048 |
| [17:35:03] | sphery: | markk: also, both jp abq_ and danielk were having issues (that seemed to be related to a broken driver install) where they'd get: http://pastebin.com/2qHDS3qa ... Should I disable on some missing extensions? |
| [17:35:17] | clever: | texture size is also much more limited, software gl probly just goes to extremes to do anything |
| [17:36:56] | markk: | sphery: with the first one – probably just a case of adding a check for the softpipe string in MythRenderOpenGL::IsRecommendedRenderer |
| [17:37:05] | sphery: | ok, will do |
| [17:38:34] | clever: | and maybe a log warning to double-check the group perms |
| [17:39:02] | clever: | /dev/agpgart&friends are owned by the video group, and myth needs the video group to access them |
| [17:39:52] | stichnot: | I'm seeing some problems with closed caption formatting and I want to ask the myth/qt experts here. This is based on the 650MB test file http://ncamftp.wgbh.org/DTV/CEA%20test%20mate . . . v1.2zero.trp . |
| [17:40:01] | markk: | on the second one – there is no error reported at startup (those extensions are not needed), so pretty hard to tell what the issue is. as you say, some sort of driver installation problem most likely. |
| [17:40:09] | markk: | sphery: ^^ |
| [17:40:27] | stichnot: | First, CEA-608 underlining stopped working for me, even though the logs indicate that some text should be underlined. |
| [17:41:04] | stichnot: | Second, CEA-708 colors are not working, even though extra logging I added indicates color changes. |
| [17:41:37] | stichnot: | CEA-608 underlining was working when I first submitted the color/italic/underline patch |
| [17:42:12] | stichnot: | I wonder if there's something fishy about the use of the qt font code. |
| [17:43:45] | markk: | stichnot: underlining appears to be fine here – though I'd noticed the lack of 708 colors\ |
| [17:43:58] | sphery: | markk: ok, thanks for the input--I didn't want to make any changes without checking with you first |
| [17:44:42] | stichnot: | There is a global font object (or set of font objects for CEA-708). To accomplish color/italic/underline changes, the corresponding aspects of the global font are changed and then the font is passed as an argument to the MythUISimpleText constructor. |
| [17:45:14] | stichnot: | markk: underlining on the wgbh sample, or on other inputs? |
| [17:45:59] | stichnot: | I wonder if it's correct to be using a global font object. |
| [17:46:43] | stichnot: | fwiw, CEA-708 underlining is working in that sample |
| [17:50:09] | markk: | stichnot: the test stream with 'CEA/whd-tv DTVCC Test Program' top left – blue background, white grid, red boxes... |
| [17:50:38] | stichnot: | On a slightly related note, SubtitleScreen::Initialise708Fonts() hard-codes the fonts (which I'm fine with), but I think the default font should be the OSDSubFont setting. |
| [17:51:33] | stichnot: | markk: I can't view the stream right now, but that sounds right. |
| [17:52:08] | markk: | underlining working in both 608 and 708 – colours only with 608. do you have other patches applied? |
| [17:52:48] | markk: | sphery: are you still interested/working on the 708 font settings? |
| [17:53:31] | stichnot: | I had my #10194 patch applied, but same behavior after reverting it. |
| [17:54:31] | stichnot: | and I have a number of other almost certainly unrelated patches. I will try reverting them all tonight. |
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| [18:07:21] | sphery: | markk: yeah, I still have that patch in my tree--just needs a bit more work. I could have it done for 0.25 if we want |
| [18:09:12] | stichnot: | sphery: curious what you have in mind for 708 fonts |
| [18:11:29] | sphery: | I have a patch that allows theme-specified fonts for all OSD/subtitle fonts. Size is ignored for 608 fonts, but the idea is to open up all the mythui features for defining fonts ( http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythUI_Theme_Devel . . . _definitions ) and, possibly in the future, adding things like backgrounds (to allow for alpha-shaded or plain-color, like with the current black background), etc. |
| [18:12:45] | sphery: | (and, I think teletext font will remain hard-coded--or is that MHEG only font? Whichever is the one that's trying to duplicate the specific font that BBC is using for layout or whatever.) |
| [18:13:36] | stichnot: | I think teletext also assumes a fixed grid of characters like non-teletext 608 |
| [18:17:07] | sphery: | right, if teletext is different from the BBC-layed-out thing, it will also ignore size like 608... but if teletext is what we're using the special font for, it will not use theme-specified font definitions |
| [18:17:45] | stichnot: | It's just nice that 708 captions are finally usable. I've been using them solidly for about a week, and other than the occasional flare-up of #10283, my only nit is that I want the same 608 font that I'm used to. |
| [18:19:03] | sphery: | yeah, I just liked the idea of theme-specified fonts because it lets power-users edit them as desired, and it opens up a ton of possibilities with the font-definition capabilities of mythui |
| [18:19:42] | stichnot: | though I have to say that I quickly get used to the "Droid Sans Mono" font as opposed to the FreeMono that I normally use |
| [18:20:03] | sphery: | and, if we need to, we can break out the osd/caption settings into a separate file or "theme" type thing to make it easier to change |
| [18:20:27] | stichnot: | yeah, I agree about the power-usability |
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| [18:29:35] | Seeker`: | markk: did you see my patch for moving the key out of the code for RAOP? |
| [18:30:39] | sphery: | So, it looks like it's just mheg that has a specific font required (Tiresias InfoFont, but we're using some close approximation since the font MHEG uses is not open). So that means 608 and teletext would use built-in size |
| [18:36:20] | stichnot: | sphery: that sounds right. As for defaults, I think it's a good idea that by default, the font and size for 608, 708, and text subs are the same. |
| [18:37:21] | sphery: | yeah, I remember the discussion a couple weeks back |
| [18:41:16] | stichnot: | markk: it occurs to me that my 608 underlining could be getting clipped, maybe due to some recent change I made to font/size. I'll look into that. I'm still troubled by the lack of 708 colors despite the colors my logs are claiming |
| [18:45:07] | stichnot: | the logs are a little hard to definitively read, but it looks like it's trying to use #c0c0c0 for white, #800000 for red, #008080 for cyan, etc. Not the best/right values in my opinion, but it's clear they aren't even showing up. |
| [18:45:11] | sphery: | stichnot: did you see jpa bq_ changes related to shadows? could it be related or having some effect--or some similar change required for mythuisimpletext? https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/ac823d75c |
| [18:52:37] | stichnot: | I don't have that commit yet, but you're right, something like that seems plausible |
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| [19:35:55] | skd5aner: | so, I through out the idea of helping moderate/triage trac tickets a while back and there was some consensus from some folks that my help would be welcome in that area... I used to check it daily, but haven't really looked in about 6 months... it's amazing how much stuff builds up |
| [19:36:22] | skd5aner: | I'm willing to volunteer again, primarily to help assist prior to freeze and release |
| [19:36:30] | skd5aner: | (if there's any desire) |
| [19:37:02] | skd5aner: | s/through/threw... I hate that grammar mistake |
| [19:39:25] | skd5aner: | iamlindoro: ^ I think you and I had that chat a while back – let me know if you'd like another set of eyes on first-level triage duty |
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| [19:44:26] | stuartm: | skd5aner: we'd welcome that, we did actually have a non-committing triage team at one point but after a few weeks they faded away – triage isn't very exciting |
| [19:45:07] | ** skd5aner has enough excitement in his life right now ** | |
| [20:01:39] | Seeker`: | skd5aner: any ideas how to stop stuff like this happening: http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/9632 <- patch, written by someone to fix functionality, just sitting there |
| [20:02:30] | skd5aner: | well, I have some thoughts and opinions – but ultimately it's a process, talent, and time issue |
| [20:03:10] | skd5aner: | Do you have the right people, who have the time to review and implement the patch – and then what is the process built around that |
| [20:03:15] | Seeker`: | seems that sort of thing is the lowest hanging fruit possible |
| [20:03:35] | sphery: | Seeker`: the reason that's just sitting there is because every time we've made changes to UPnP stuff to fix one client, it tends to break other UPnP clients |
| [20:03:56] | skd5aner: | well, and it seems that UPnP clients like to not follow the spec |
| [20:04:32] | sphery: | so it requires a lot of testing and review from the developer who eventually does review it--and lots of testing by everyone else (using every other upnp client) afterwards |
| [20:06:11] | skd5aner: | My suggestion for triaging would be two fold... initial and periodic review. Handle tickets as they come in (assign to someone, ensure the fields are correct, throw out the cruft, etc) and then have a periodic review of tickets once they reach a certain again without activity |
| [20:06:52] | skd5aner: | and... give different weight to people submitting bugs vs people submiting bug fixes vs people submitting feature enhancements |
| [20:07:51] | sphery: | and, get away from this "guilty until proven innocent" approach we've been taking... i.e. close tickets unless the provide a good diagnosis or at least a description that makes it possible to reproduce and refer people to the "If your ticket gets marked as "worksforme" or "invalid" consider this a challenge to improve the bug report." of http://code.mythtv.org/trac/wiki/TicketHowTo |
| [20:08:12] | skd5aner: | so, if someone submits a patch to fix something like a DB backup bug at upgrades, I might assign that to sphery – if he didn't respond or do anything with the ticket in 8 weeks, I might gently remind sphery again to take a look and at least respond – in turn, which resets the clock again |
| [20:08:33] | Seeker`: | sphery: I'd collapse the 'lots of testing by developer' and 'lots of testing by everyone else' to just 'lots of testing', which can't (easily) happen until it is committed, rather than just letting the patch get out of sync with the codebase |
| [20:08:37] | skd5aner: | ... that way review is always on-going based on time, and not just whenever someone gets around to trying to clean everything up |
| [20:08:56] | sphery: | that said, I haven't done much closing of ones that I'm sure we'll never actually be able repro mainly because I don't care to have the fights |
| [20:09:11] | Seeker`: | sphery: don't fight then :P |
| [20:09:59] | skd5aner: | Seeker`: I agree, to an extent – patches that get submitted tend to bit-rot and then become worthless |
| [20:10:13] | sphery: | the time-based review works a lot better, though, when people are actually paid to do the work... I know when I'm busy with work travel, I'm very unlikely to do any (but the simplest of) work on MythTV |
| [20:10:19] | skd5aner: | Seeker`: not sure I agree on "how" to handle that – I wouldn't say "commit and find out"... |
| [20:11:30] | Seeker`: | skd5aner: if it doesn't obviously break anything, then it is probably worth a try; people will comment if it breaks devices that work, and it isn't that hard to roll back a commit |
| [20:11:31] | skd5aner: | sphery: that may be, but there still should be some level of accountability (imho) – at least enough for a triager to say "sphery, this was assigned to you 6 weeks ago and there's been no activity – please provide comment and/or suggested next steps" |
| [20:12:28] | skd5aner: | Seeker`: it's not always "does it break something" or not – sometimes people submit patches that are completely out of sync with coding standards, use a completely different procedure than what should be used, etc... |
| [20:13:24] | skd5aner: | look at the latest "big mythgame patch"... it probably works, but it does things in such a way that would require more work from the devs after commiting to undo the improper design that was implemented in the patch |
| [20:13:48] | skd5aner: | I do believe in those cases, it's up to the patch submitter to get it as "close to right" as possible, at least for first pass |
| [20:14:33] | Seeker`: | yes, bigger patches may be more difficult to deal with. But then a 'this isnt right' comment gives people a chance to fix it, rather than just leaving it in limbo |
| [20:16:30] | skd5aner: | sphery: my other suggestion would be that the priority/severity fields actually mean something... if something's marked as critical, then that timeframe of inactivity goes down... if it's marked trivial, then perhaps it can wait 3+ months before the next reminder |
| [20:17:11] | skd5aner: | Seeker`: anyway – it doesn't change the fact that the devs are doing this for free in spare time, so even a rigid process won't mean they're obligated to do anything |
| [20:17:24] | sphery: | they do mean something--they just don't mean "how important this is to the submitter" |
| [20:17:39] | skd5aner: | sphery: yea, I don't mean that |
| [20:18:10] | skd5aner: | sphery: I mean, litterally tied to a prioritization and clearly defined as to what the objectives for a "critical" are versus a "major" |
| [20:18:32] | skd5aner: | right now, they're completely arbitrary and subjective |
| [20:20:55] | jams: | personally i think a new tracking system should be setup(since there was talk of that). Archive the current one in case a dev wants to revisit an old ticket. But all new ones including patch refreshes go to the new system. |
| [20:21:36] | iamlindoro: | I agree. There's little left of value in trac patchwise, and more chaff than wheat by far |
| [20:22:33] | iamlindoro: | If we all set our minds to triaging the crap out of it we might be able to get down to a few hundred, the the remainder would be stuff that nobody has interest in working on, things that we wouldn't touch for fear of offending another dev, or something we just know will be a blowup from a bitchy user |
| [20:22:34] | stuartm: | jams: we couldn't find another system that everyone liked |
| [20:23:01] | stuartm: | unless you mean we just start with a fresh install of trac |
| [20:23:06] | jams: | i beleive it :( |
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| [20:24:24] | stuartm: | in fact, last I heard no-one at all liked the alternatives Jira was just too resource intensive and complicated, Bugzilla is Bugzilla etc |
| [20:24:53] | iamlindoro: | I am fairly happy with trac as a system, it's relatively user friendly and simple |
| [20:25:01] | skd5aner: | well, a tool is just a tool... they all can be bad if the process around them is broken |
| [20:25:03] | stuartm: | Trac works, it's easy to use and everyone knows it well, the grass isn't always greener on the other side |
| [20:25:05] | skd5aner: | I like trac too |
| [20:25:10] | sphery: | might be nice to wait until we're back on our own server--and, I hope, have our own git repo as the main master (so that mythtv.org repo is origin for repo on github, and users pull from github, but we don't have to live with github's limitations for integration) |
| [20:25:12] | jams: | stuartm, well i personally like flyspray or redmine. |
| [20:25:26] | jams: | but i'm sure both of those were looked at. |
| [20:25:28] | sphery: | then fix a lot of the issues with the current git integration and trac |
| [20:25:54] | wagnerrp: | i would like trac a lot more if we figured out how to get it to support mysql and git |
| [20:26:04] | sphery: | so that, for example, trac actually stores the commit messages and trac will take us to changesets and changesets referencing tickets take us back to tickets |
| [20:26:21] | sphery: | (currently only way to search commit messages is with gossamer or git log type stuff) |
| [20:26:30] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: it's been well over a year since anyone last looked, the newest trac might have what we want |
| [20:27:04] | wagnerrp: | well it supports mysql, but wasnt there some stability issue last time anyone tried to convert it over? |
| [20:27:18] | iamlindoro: | So we don't convert, then ;) |
| [20:27:24] | iamlindoro: | perfect excuse |
| [20:27:31] | iamlindoro: | "Whoops, we broke it" |
| [20:28:10] | stuartm: | hmm, not that they've released a new version in that time ... 0.13 is in development but we have run development versions before, so it's still worth a look |
| [20:28:42] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: if it was just bugs then the latest stable release could include a fix |
| [20:29:55] | ** skd5aner didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest ** | |
| [20:31:13] | jams: | hehe |
| [20:31:20] | stuartm: | http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/ChangeLog http://trac.edgewall.org/demo-0.13 |
| [20:31:36] | skd5aner: | I do think, regardless of the tool, that a stronger process and accountability model would go a long way... and I'm willing to help out in that way if desired |
| [20:32:33] | iamlindoro: | You'll struggle with accountability |
| [20:32:44] | stuartm: | http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracDev/ReleaseNotes/0.13 |
| [20:33:26] | skd5aner: | If you are assigned something, as the primary owner of a feature, then you should be held accountable for determining the actions required for the ticket... if it sits there for 6 months and you do nothing, then I would suggest that the feature gets assigned to someone else, or the ticket gets closed (or archived) |
| [20:33:54] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: "reassigning a feature to someone else" is a quick way to lose what few devs we have remaining |
| [20:34:05] | skd5aner: | iamlindoro: I know... and I know it's the nature of the beast, but still... if you don't explicitely set that out as a goal of the project, then you've already failed in that particular regard |
| [20:34:28] | iamlindoro: | And most of the rest of us have enough to do without coming up to speed on someone else's expertise anyway |
| [20:34:45] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: I guess we have to live with that failure, then |
| [20:34:50] | skd5aner: | yea, I honestly don't know what the answer/balance is... |
| [20:35:14] | stuartm: | we 'steal' tickets from each other all the time, if someone has the time to work on a ticket I own then in most cases I'm happy to let them |
| [20:35:25] | iamlindoro: | I know that for me, someone demanding that I do anything with code I wrote on a schedule or it would no longer be my code would just make me stop or fork the project with people who were more like minded |
| [20:35:45] | skd5aner: | I don't necessarily mean that... |
| [20:35:57] | skd5aner: | definitely not an ultimatuum... |
| [20:36:25] | Seeker`: | I think its more of a 'have you remembered about this, what do you want to do with it' that skd5aner is talking about |
| [20:36:42] | skd5aner: | But more of a "this has sit here for 6 months, we know you're busy and haven't had a chance to look at it, but perhaps someone else can in the meantime" – if not, then we figure out plan B |
| [20:36:49] | skd5aner: | Seeker`: yea, basically |
| [20:36:55] | iamlindoro: | Seeker`: And to that I'd say, "Yep, I know it's there. And?" |
| [20:37:50] | skd5aner: | it's a simply time to say "what are your intentions?" – if it's is simply "I'm still interested, but it won't happen until next release" then we at least can set realistic expectations and we've triaged the ticket |
| [20:38:16] | skd5aner: | Set a tollgate for it – and once that tollgate's reached, come back to it and re-analyze |
| [20:38:34] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: "My intentions are to let it sit there, I'm not going to get to it any time soon." |
| [20:38:40] | iamlindoro: | So at what point does the "feature get reassigned?" |
| [20:39:09] | stuartm: | none of it is my code once I hit 'commit' (svn terminology), I prefer the courtesy of being asked if someone wants to modify something I wrote because I might be able to offer advice about why it was done a particular way, but it's not a given right that I can approve/disapprove all changes |
| [20:39:11] | skd5aner: | reassigned? |
| [20:39:31] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: They're *your* words |
| [20:39:33] | iamlindoro: | "if it sits there for 6 months and you do nothing, then I would suggest that the feature gets assigned to someone else, or the ticket gets closed (or archived)" |
| [20:39:34] | skd5aner: | stuartm: yea, I'd wholeheartdly agree with that statement |
| [20:39:46] | skd5aner: | iamlindoro: the ticket gets reassigned, not the feature |
| [20:39:56] | iamlindoro: | So your just made a typo? |
| [20:40:00] | jpabq_: | sphery: markk from your discussion this morning about OpenGL — My issue was due to trying to run in a VirtualBox environment. I am using Parallels now, and have not had that problem since. |
| [20:40:00] | iamlindoro: | s/your/you/ |
| [20:40:21] | skd5aner: | for example – if someone submits a uPNP patch, I'd initially triage Beirdo as the owner, since he's taken a lot of that one recently... |
| [20:40:35] | iamlindoro: | Trac does that automatically |
| [20:40:39] | skd5aner: | right... |
| [20:41:28] | sphery: | jpabq_: ah, ok... I think danielk's turned out to be driver install problems. I don't think I looked at your log output because I had thought we figured out it was the same driver installation issue. I'll see if I can find the pastebins (and if they're still avialable). |
| [20:41:31] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: My point is, the more productive current members of this project generally don't want to be told what to do with their time, and the kind of discipline you are talking about trying to impose, which works well in a paid environment, will alienate people we cannot spare |
| [20:41:34] | skd5aner: | but if he doesn't do anything after a period of time (based on defined expectations of a priority/severity – then he get's asked to comment on his intentions, and if he can't dedicate time to it, then perhaps another dev could be assigned to review |
| [20:42:13] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: You're not going to find anyone to volunteer to take on patches outside of their given expertise-- we can't even get our *own* done, who has the bandwidth to take on more? |
| [20:42:21] | sphery: | skd5aner: fwiw, I think in general most of us /do/ tackle the very important ones quickly--we put our own priority on ones that affect others' ability to use MythTV |
| [20:42:23] | jams: | jpabq- there is a reason some kernel devs want to mark any tickets involving VB as tainted crap :) |
| [20:42:45] | skd5aner: | I understand... |
| [20:42:57] | jpabq_: | I bet. |
| [20:43:00] | skd5aner: | perhaps I'm being a bit idealistic here... |
| [20:43:26] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: If we have a dozen more devs, there might be an opportunity to be more disciplined in ticket maintenance-- but if we had a dozen more devs, it likely wouldn't be necessary |
| [20:43:46] | skd5aner: | I just don't see the point in this happening... http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/7762 |
| [20:43:52] | iamlindoro: | We should be focusing on nurturing new talent in creative ways (coding contests, etc), not enforcement on the little talent we have |
| [20:44:23] | iamlindoro: | But sadly, there's relatively few people submitting patches of any worth, and of that group, we tend not to all agree on whether they can be trusted with commit access |
| [20:45:04] | iamlindoro: | It's like raising taxes on your poverty-stricken nation-- it's not going to suddenly make you wealthy |
| [20:45:32] | sphery: | skd5aner: some of those that sit forever sit forever because we've determined that adding the code as provided will cause more problems than living without the change until it can be properly rewritten in such a way as to follow the long-term goals of the project |
| [20:45:56] | Seeker`: | iamlindoro: I don't think skd5aner has ever suggested forcing people to work on certain tickets. I tihnk skd5aner wants some way of keeping trac more under control, and if something will never get fixed marking it as such, rather than just ignoring it. |
| [20:46:00] | skd5aner: | sphery: then cut it loose and make it a feature request |
| [20:46:11] | sphery: | i.e. most of my remaining tickets are that kind--where the user provided a nice "proof of concept" patch, but that needs to be rewritten to fit in with long-term changes |
| [20:46:20] | sphery: | and or is waiting on other changes before it can be done right |
| [20:46:37] | sphery: | (meaning I can't necessarily just ask the user to rewrite it) |
| [20:47:11] | iamlindoro: | Seeker`: And the approach is unrealistic if not impossible given our current project situation |
| [20:47:44] | iamlindoro: | I appreciate the enthusiasm of both of you-- and I think having skd5aner as a ticket triager is a great idea |
| [20:49:27] | skd5aner: | iamlindoro: yea, sorry... re-reading above... definitely mispoke when I used the word "feature"... I can understand your reaction now given my wording |
| [20:50:16] | skd5aner: | I mean "ticket" |
| [20:50:54] | skd5aner: | that's not to say the ticket might not be in regards to a feature that a particular dev owns that another dev might be re-assigned to take a look at (if it got to the point) |
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| [20:54:11] | skd5aner: | iamlindoro: and I agree about nuturing new talent – but what are the current roadblocks that's limiting the right talent from receiving commit access or fostering an environment where additional developers are wanted? |
| [20:55:42] | iamlindoro: | talent and ability to work well with others/within the project ethos |
| [20:56:33] | iamlindoro: | We have relatively few people submitting work of a caliber that prompts someone to suggest them, and of that small group, there are a number of people who have proven very difficult to work with/unwillingness to take suggestions/requirements for change |
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| [20:56:50] | stuartm: | the latter actually being more important than the former and the reason why we've decided not to give commit privs to some obviously talented individuals |
| [20:57:14] | skd5aner: | but – there's obviously a plethora of talent out there – why aren't they coming to the mythtv project? It doesn't seem there's a ton coming, and the ones that do come – do they not work well with others/within the project ethos? |
| [20:57:49] | iamlindoro: | Well first off, there's not actually as much talent as you might expect |
| [20:58:20] | iamlindoro: | And of the others, yes, many of them take a "take it or leave it" attitude, or are very very difficult to convince to look at it another way |
| [20:58:51] | iamlindoro: | or have attitudes about our legal or ethical constraints that make it difficult to trust that they can operate in line with our project requirements |
| [21:00:02] | iamlindoro: | ie, when someone submits good patches, but jumps to the defense of pirates, screams when we outlaw softcam discussions, and other stuff that we must do whether we like to or not, that is of concern |
| [21:00:27] | skd5aner: | well, I can definitely understand the latter being a quick way to be sent to the exit |
| [21:00:39] | iamlindoro: | But you don't understand the former? |
| [21:00:48] | skd5aner: | no... not saying that exactly... |
| [21:00:56] | skd5aner: | I just don't understand the numbers game... |
| [21:01:05] | skd5aner: | why does it seem so hard to get good devs to show up in the first place |
| [21:01:05] | iamlindoro: | What numbers game? |
| [21:01:21] | iamlindoro: | Because we aren't a "sexy" project, I'm sad to say |
| [21:01:29] | skd5aner: | If the pool was larger, than it's easier to weed out the bad apples |
| [21:01:40] | skd5aner: | yea, that's what I'm getting at – what does it take to bring people in |
| [21:02:11] | iamlindoro: | Sexy features, slick marketing, excellent documentation, naked chicks |
| [21:02:17] | skd5aner: | what's XBMC's core dev pool look like? and they're greater community-submitted contributors look like? |
| [21:02:46] | skd5aner: | time for you to put some porn scripts in to MNV I guess ;) |
| [21:02:46] | iamlindoro: | They have probably a dozen very active devs, we probably have four and a half |
| [21:02:59] | iamlindoro: | I can't say exactly, but realistically they likely have many more devs |
| [21:03:05] | iamlindoro: | er users, that is |
| [21:03:56] | iamlindoro: | MythTV has many features few other media centers can match, but the barrier to entry with MythTV is quite a lot higher than XBMC for example |
| [21:04:03] | iamlindoro: | XBMC is pretty close to a one click install/config |
| [21:04:16] | iamlindoro: | We can get a lot closer with web setup, but we will never be configurationless |
| [21:04:34] | iamlindoro: | we also have a lot of baggage in code and baggage in users-- and when we try to rid ourselves of one, the other tends to make us miserable |
| [21:05:23] | skd5aner: | what do you mean by "baggage in users" exactly? |
| [21:05:59] | skd5aner: | the loud voices of a few on the ML? |
| [21:06:04] | iamlindoro: | Users who are unwilling or unable to accept that we're moving forward and dropping their pet feature/setting/support for their hardware, and have been trained that if they are loud and obnoxious enough, they can delay or prevent us doing so |
| [21:06:39] | iamlindoro: | Because to date, they've largely been able to-- XvMC support should have been gone two releases ago, and Wv should have been god last release |
| [21:06:43] | iamlindoro: | er Xv |
| [21:07:00] | iamlindoro: | That was some atrocious typing |
| [21:07:14] | skd5aner: | heh – I'll be the last to throw stones related to typos |
| [21:07:27] | skd5aner: | my fingers have their own brains |
| [21:08:30] | skd5aner: | anyway... I don't really feel as though the few users who are strongly opposed to changes such as that really make a huge impact |
| [21:08:42] | skd5aner: | (that said from an outside observer obviously) |
| [21:09:02] | iamlindoro: | Anyway, *if*, and at this point it seems a big if, we can get to a point where MythTV can be installed by the average technical but not DBA-level user, including configuration, we'll be a lot better off. But even the massive support among our existing devs for web based setup on yielded two or three of us actually doing any work this cycle |
| [21:09:03] | skd5aner: | I mean – The vast, vast majority of people could care less about XvMC now |
| [21:09:16] | iamlindoro: | Yes, that's the outside observer, and is a mistaken impression |
| [21:09:28] | iamlindoro: | XvMC stayed as long as it did because of ceaseless user bitching |
| [21:09:48] | iamlindoro: | likewise libmpeg2 support, and at least half a dozen others that I could name off the top of my head |
| [21:09:59] | stuartm: | if we could just agree to focus on improving the end user experience, easier setup and config, greater attention to detail in existing features and consistency of look/behaviour in the frontend we might actually keep existing users and attract some more – from there we could expect more devs etc |
| [21:10:05] | skd5aner: | Well, at the same time, I've said on the record before that I think user feedback is important, but... ;) |
| [21:10:32] | stuartm: | polish, polish and more polish |
| [21:10:59] | Beirdo: | stuartm: I think we need two focuses... one, that you just stated... the other is making/keeping the core code bug-free |
| [21:11:19] | Beirdo: | doesn't necessarily have to be the same devs doing the two things, of course |
| [21:11:19] | skd5aner: | stuartm: yea, that's what I'm wondering – if the ultimate goal is more developer talent, and that stems from more users and a sexier project, then shouldn't those goals translate directly into what goes into the prioritization of work effort now? |
| [21:11:26] | jams: | stuartm agreed..that includes livetv. Cause thats the first thing new users try out. |
| [21:11:38] | skd5aner: | (... and defining what those goals are and somewhat enforcing work on those)? |
| [21:11:47] | iamlindoro: | I'd bet you 50% of people who install a mythtv package never make it as far as live TV |
| [21:11:52] | skd5aner: | jams: oh snap... live tv, you have balls man |
| [21:11:53] | iamlindoro: | And that's not to say that they wouldn't if they could |
| [21:11:56] | skd5aner: | jams: ;) |
| [21:12:02] | iamlindoro: | just that they never even get a working setup |
| [21:12:33] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: "prioritization of work effort" is on an individual basis only |
| [21:12:42] | skd5aner: | why can't it be at a project level? |
| [21:12:49] | iamlindoro: | like it or not, open source development is a pack of wild cats, herding is near impossible |
| [21:12:56] | iamlindoro: | We're going in circles |
| [21:13:04] | iamlindoro: | if you tell people what they can and can't work on, they'll do nothing instead |
| [21:13:40] | skd5aner: | I'm just wondering – is it possible to change that behavior... if there answer is no, I'm simply asking "why"? |
| [21:13:47] | stuartm: | it's difficult to enforce working on those goals because to be blunt we have users and devs who really don't want MythTV to be simpler, they like complexity and bristle at the thought of making it simple enough for the novice |
| [21:14:22] | Beirdo: | yeah, sometimes simplifying too much can get you to the Microsoft Bob situation |
| [21:14:43] | skd5aner: | I honestly don't have the first hand experience to say one way or the other – I deal in a "funded" development world on a daily basis – but I don't know exactly how you translate some of those exact same SDLC practices to an open source world since the gaps are obviously there |
| [21:14:43] | Beirdo: | it becomes so "newbie friendly" that it is of no use to anyone but newbies |
| [21:14:50] | Beirdo: | granted we are FAR from that line :) |
| [21:14:59] | stuartm: | the settings cleanup, which did a good job but still didn't go as far as I would have liked took months of negotiation and persistent nagging |
| [21:15:22] | allesmueller: | skd5aner, because they don´t get money for their work (afaik) |
| [21:15:24] | iamlindoro: | skd5aner: If the project says "We're working on setup and polish/bugs only this cycle" and Mark says, "No, I'm working on OpenMax support and won't be touching either of those," what do you propose we say? Now repeat that for each and every one of us. We might all agree that polish or simplicity are worthwhile goals, but in the end that's only borne out as far as you maintain each individual's interest |
| [21:16:01] | skd5aner: | simple... hold back their paycheck |
| [21:16:06] | skd5aner: | oh... wait... |
| [21:16:06] | iamlindoro: | And the truth is, we HAVE all agree that simplicity/web setup/etc are our primary goals-- but the truth is, nobody really means it when the rubber hits the road. |
| [21:16:07] | skd5aner: | ;) |
| [21:16:25] | stuartm: | Beirdo: I think it's very difficult to go from where we are now to Bob in a single step and we'd hopefully stop long before that point, but the fear of Bob is causing near stasis |
| [21:16:38] | Beirdo: | agreed. |
| [21:16:57] | jams: | i do have a fear of Bob |
| [21:16:59] | Beirdo: | we can't let that fear stop us from getting to the happy medium, and we have quite some way to go for that |
| [21:17:41] | jams: | stuartm, speaking of some simplication. what happened with moving mythwelcome to the FE ? |
| [21:18:39] | stuartm: | of course, talking isn't doing, so I'm going back to re-writing the threaded image loading to put an end to a range of segfaults and UI lockup bugs (I hope) |
| [21:19:33] | stuartm: | jams: umm, it's coming honest, but for every task I work on I hit a bunch of bugs which I have to stop and fix first |
| [21:19:44] | skd5aner: | stuartm: yea, that's where I feel kinda worthless around here sometimes... here I am doing a lot of talking... |
| [21:20:19] | jams: | oh just curious, no push or anything |
| [21:20:58] | stuartm: | if it would help get us any further along I can start listing a bunch of issues on a wiki page which I think need fixing, little stuff mostly but too much for just one person |
| [21:22:09] | sphery: | stuartm: and some of us still have a bunch of patches in our tree that are removing settings--because even after rewriting it the way it should have been done in the first place, we know there will be a huge outcry when we do push the change... :) |
| [21:22:39] | jams: | stuartm i think that would help. It might be a good place to point ppl that want to help but don't know where to start |
| [21:22:43] | sphery: | where a huge majority of our settings were added as a quick easy way of doing something without having to write the code so that mythtv just does the righrt thing |
| [21:22:45] | skd5aner: | sphery: "huge outcry" is one thing... but which settings do you fear removing the most? |
| [21:22:52] | stuartm: | sphery: just do it ;) |
| [21:23:10] | stuartm: | better to ask forgiveness ... yadda yadda |
| [21:23:24] | jams: | oh sphery is just timid cause I yelled at him today for removing the painter setting :) |
| [21:23:43] | Beirdo: | we also need to finish the job in some cases. The setting gets removed, but the underlying code that uses it remains for a while |
| [21:23:45] | skd5aner: | stuartm: yea, I think that'd be nice – if even some of them are generic goals, it'd be nice if patches could be associated with those goals (i.e., UX Simplification, Ease of Setup, etc) |
| [21:24:10] | sphery: | at this point--based on empirical evidence--any of them... much of the reason I've done little for MythTV lately is because after each time I do a change to remove some setting and then have to justify or argue the reason why the new code is better, I lose all interest in working on MythTV for a month or so |
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| [21:24:49] | stuartm: | off the top of my head – mythvideo menus done work like watch recordings > doesn't matter which convention we settle on but it should be one or the other |
| [21:25:08] | Beirdo: | on a good note, I'm about ready to start debugging again... I needed a break, so I made a quilt. |
| [21:25:11] | iamlindoro: | To the record, even though I was all for it at first, I hate the toggle |
| [21:25:13] | iamlindoro: | er for the |
| [21:25:29] | stuartm: | INFO should bring up Information, there are several screens where basic bindings like EDIT, DELETE and similar are not hooked up |
| [21:25:57] | skd5aner: | sphery: I'm glad that the devs are that willing to listen to the user community, but at the same time... it's not like you're making cavalier changes – they're well thought out and most functionality is either defaulted or moved to something else (like keybindings)... again – 5 different people on a mailing list don't make up the thousands of mythtv users |
| [21:26:01] | iamlindoro: | I had thought about just rethinking the whole MythVideo menu structure, though, to get everything into one menu |
| [21:26:03] | sphery: | stuartm: fwiw, Beirdo set up an assembla account--where that's pretty well structured for the TODOs and such |
| [21:26:25] | Beirdo: | anyone who'd like to use it is welcome |
| [21:26:39] | sphery: | stuartm: I've created my account but haven't moved my TODOs (from any of my 3 TODO lists) over |
| [21:26:46] | Beirdo: | anyone who doesn't want to... is welcome to not bother :) |
| [21:27:05] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: one menu would be fine instead of the toggle, which I agree just doesn't feel right |
| [21:27:37] | Seeker`: | I would love to see a list of 'beginner friendly' tasks |
| [21:27:43] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: I was thinking something like the OSD, which I think is our most intuitive menu |
| [21:27:59] | iamlindoro: | one or two word topics with submenus |
| [21:28:05] | Beirdo: | I need to dig into whether mythtranscode is borked for use with nuvexport since the streaming changes |
| [21:28:16] | Seeker`: | cause, y'know, 1.5 million lines of code is hard to get your head round instantly |
| [21:28:18] | Beirdo: | it seems it might have been, but not sure |
| [21:28:26] | sphery: | stuartm: fwiw, I'm starting to hate the MENU shows 2 different menus approach we have in Watch Recordings... That said, users on -users list told us that having an action menu and a context menu was "Bad UI Design!" (of course, they had no clue that they were, in fact, action and context menus, but...) |
| [21:28:27] | Beirdo: | Seeker`: nah, you don't say? :) |
| [21:28:34] | stuartm: | a little nuanced issue in mythvideo which I noted down today is that the 'detail' window shown before playback in the gallery remains onscreen when you leave playback, arguably the UX would be better it closed when playback started so you didn't have to keep dismissing it to watch something else |
| [21:28:40] | iamlindoro: | There's not a single one of us with our heads wrapped around all the code |
| [21:29:07] | Beirdo: | some of us try, but I doubt any have completely succeeded |
| [21:29:10] | iamlindoro: | We all started by picking one small thing we wanted to change, finding the right code, making the change, and expanding from there |
| [21:29:23] | Beirdo: | just too much stuff there. |
| [21:29:28] | Seeker`: | iamlindoro: But there are some things that involve localised changes in one or two files, and others that involve understanding larger portions of the system |
| [21:29:34] | iamlindoro: | There's hundreds, if not thousands of no-brainer improvements that could be made in a single file each, with no peripheral understanding |
| [21:29:39] | sphery: | stuartm: I realize we can't get past users saying, "INFO doesn't mean menu", but I'd be more for creating a new CONTEXTMENU binding and having 2 separate menus, like before, than moving everything to MENU toggles any number of menus. |
| [21:29:49] | iamlindoro: | Seeker`: And you would be silly to try to make large changes without make many small ones first |
| [21:30:46] | Seeker`: | iamlindoro: exactly. So a list of things that involve only understanding local parts of the system to implement might be useful for those of us who are trying to get involved with mythtv dev |
| [21:30:49] | stuartm: | sphery: well that's three of us who don't really like the 'toggle' behaviour, I agree that two different menus with two different bindings isn't that user friendly either since remotes have a limited number of buttons – linking one menu from the other though would be a decent compromise and we can have an _optional_ binding to bring up the context menu |
| [21:31:06] | skd5aner: | stuartm: something similiar in 0.24 (not sure if it's changed in master) is that I can't enter the guide in Live TV if the OSD is up |
| [21:31:21] | skd5aner: | stuartm: I have to exit the OSD or wait for it to timeout before I can pull up the EPG |
| [21:31:22] | iamlindoro: | Seeker`: Is it that hard to come up with a few on your own? I bet if we sat you down with paper and pencil, you could come up with a dozen |
| [21:31:35] | stuartm: | sphery: have both, link to the context menu from the main menu, but also offer a binding for those with remotes the size of er .. keyboards |
| [21:31:47] | iamlindoro: | Don't worry about what we want-- make a small change which is an obvious improvement-- those kinds of patches are *easy* to apply |
| [21:31:48] | sphery: | if nothing else, toggle makes it /very/ difficult to tell a user how to do something |
| [21:31:52] | sphery: | "I don't see it..." |
| [21:31:54] | stuartm: | skd5aner: yeah, another good one |
| [21:31:56] | jams: | stuartm- you can count me as 4 |
| [21:32:00] | Seeker`: | iamlindoro: problem is that it cna be difficult to know what should be a small change or what is a larger change without knowing the system in advance :P |
| [21:32:05] | iamlindoro: | I've applied dozens of patches without even compile testing them, within seconds of the ticket being open, they're so obvious |
| [21:32:35] | ** skd5aner poked a hornets nest AND lit a fire ** | |
| [21:32:56] | iamlindoro: | Seeker`: And giving you a list of what we consider small tasks won't change that |
| [21:33:25] | iamlindoro: | Anyway, talk is cheap-- do, or do not, there is no whine |
| [21:33:35] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: what would be really cool is a button in trac which applies and commits a patch in one click, no need to download/apply/commit/push ;) |
| [21:33:50] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: Heh, I *think* that's what the pull requests are supposed to do |
| [21:34:12] | stuartm: | skd5aner: do you want to create a page in the dev wiki (or mediawiki if you prefer) and start listing things? |
| [21:34:33] | Beirdo: | iamlindoro: Yeah, occasionally we've all been bitten by the "without even compile testing" part – myself included :) |
| [21:34:44] | Seeker`: | iamlindoro: It would help to know that the thing you are trying to fix is a simple localised thing. I've seen complaints about the lack of devs. I'm trying to help, I'm trying to learn, and I'm trying to make suggestions about how to make it easier for new people to get involved |
| [21:34:48] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: if there was a button on github then ;) |
| [21:35:12] | iamlindoro: | Seeker`: Learn, then help, then make suggestsions-- doing it in any other order only serves to keep you on the outside |
| [21:35:17] | ** stuartm really does need to get back to work ** | |
| [21:35:22] | skd5aner: | stuartm: I'd be happy to help with that... let me know what you'd like me to do – that said, I don't have an actual trac account |
| [21:35:34] | iamlindoro: | Beirdo: Heh... well there's the safe no-compile tests, and the "here goes nothing" ones ;) |
| [21:35:37] | skd5aner: | but it should probably go on trac, not mediawiki |
| [21:35:46] | Beirdo: | iamlindoro: so true :) |
| [21:36:01] | iamlindoro: | Who needs to compile test, that's what buildbots are for! |
| [21:37:00] | skd5aner: | thanks for entertaining some of my quesitons/thoughts... enlightening conversation |
| [21:37:42] | sphery: | Seeker`: fwiw, every single small change I've done in the past few years has ended up being /much/ larger when I finished than I had expected when I started (reference the fix I'm actually working on now (in between reading here) for the no-brainer fix for #10287) |
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| [21:38:01] | sphery: | meaning anything can be either a quick fix or complex--just depends on where you go with it |
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| [21:40:22] | wagnerrp: | Seeker`: as an example of a "no brainer" problem, the one im currently test compiling in 0.24-fixes, dealing with an improper casting from a 64-bit int to a 32-bit int in the autoexpire code |
| [21:40:53] | wagnerrp: | it really has no bearing on the rest of the system, and could likely be picked up by a static code analysis tool |
| [21:41:15] | wagnerrp: | but could be spotted by anyone with a sound basis in C/C++ |
| [21:42:05] | sphery: | skd5aner: also, weren't you the one who was talking about BrainStorm^WIdeaStorm^WIdeaTorrent or similar for wish list? There's a possibility that we may go ahead and (finally) do that... |
| [21:42:29] | skd5aner: | yea – I really want(ed) to do that |
| [21:42:50] | sphery: | I actually like Assembla for developer-specific TODO/goal type things and the idea of IdeaTorrent for generic wishlish/discussions/... |
| [21:42:54] | wagnerrp: | stuartm: speaking of which, is cppcheck running in both 32-bit and 64-bit modes? |
| [21:43:01] | sphery: | i.e. the "unowned" TODOs/ideas |
| [21:43:05] | skd5aner: | funny story – I now run an ideatorrent install at my work after someone retired in Novemember |
| [21:43:19] | Beirdo: | wagnerrp: it's on a 64bit machine, so not sure |
| [21:43:35] | skd5aner: | I was working with xris on it a little, in terms of what we could run on the server (and couldn't) |
| [21:43:37] | Seeker`: | wagnerrp: yeah, I would have just been interested to see a list of features etc. that would be nice to have but shouldn't be too involved to implement to get started on, but apparently its a bad idea |
| [21:44:08] | skd5aner: | sphery: I stopped looking about 5 months ago, but looked at some hosted solution alternatives... maybe I'll get back in to it |
| [21:44:49] | sphery: | and I'm sure that Beirdo (or, maybe me?) could invite anyone else into the MythTV space on assembla |
| [21:45:18] | Beirdo: | not sure if you have the perms, but I can easily add it AFAIK |
| [21:45:39] | sphery: | ah, ok |
| [21:45:45] | wagnerrp: | skd5aner: funny story – I tried setting up ideatorrent on my own server over the weekend, but gave up several hours later after i couldnt get drupal to give me anything more than a blank and/or error page |
| [21:45:50] | wagnerrp: | :) |
| [21:45:55] | Beirdo: | hehe |
| [21:46:09] | sphery: | wagnerrp: better than a blank error page? |
| [21:46:10] | Beirdo: | I seem to remember the issue when we tried it was that it wanted pgsql |
| [21:46:33] | Beirdo: | and we didn't want both mysql and pgsql on the virtual server (or alcor, either, really) |
| [21:46:43] | Beirdo: | but that was nearly a year back, so... |
| [21:46:48] | sphery: | ah, we should all hit their -users list and say that they need to support mysql immediately! after all, any app should be able to use any DB--it's easy! |
| [21:47:00] | skd5aner: | wagnerrp: heh – yea, it can be a bit tempermental sometimes |
| [21:47:06] | wagnerrp: | sphery: well it was either a blank page, or a warning of trying to send headers after printing another warning about an invalid page cache |
| [21:47:22] | skd5aner: | yes, ideatorrent requires pgsql |
| [21:47:25] | Beirdo: | sphery: I think it's on their roadmap for the next version |
| [21:47:49] | skd5aner: | ideatorrent is basically stagnant |
| [21:47:56] | Beirdo: | it would be less of an issue on alcor though |
| [21:48:10] | sphery: | ah, that's not good... someone might use it as support for the "MythTV should support (postgres|oracle DB|DB2|SQL Server|sqllite)" argument |
| [21:48:13] | iamlindoro: | Maybe we could hit their ideatorrent about ideatorrent supporting MySQL ;) |
| [21:48:21] | skd5aner: | there is no roadmap, the developer abandoned his v2 he was creating, and hasnt really actively maintained the 1.0 version in over a year |
| [21:48:23] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: I dunno |
| [21:48:46] | Beirdo: | skd5aner: ahh, I remember seeing as a feature for v2, didn't realize he gave up |
| [21:49:04] | skd5aner: | hence, another reason I was looking at alternatives... but I'll pick back up on this over the weekend |
| [21:49:06] | sphery: | skd5aner: well, at least a few of us like the idea of something better than the wiki page, so if you have any suggestions for something better than ideatorrent, please let us know |
| [21:49:32] | ** skd5aner tries to go dig up his notes, bookmarks, and old conversations with xris ** | |
| [21:49:42] | rockhound (rockhound!~rockhound@d069064.adsl.hansenet.de) has joined #mythtv | |
| [21:50:15] | wagnerrp: | skd5aner: there is no v1.0 |
| [21:50:27] | wagnerrp: | there was a v0.9 that the last stable update was back in 2009 |
| [21:50:41] | stuartm: | so long as it doesn't take weeks to get setup, I'd sooner stick with the wiki if we can use it _now_ (before 0.25 has come and gone) |
| [21:50:50] | skd5aner: | yea, sorry... wasn't being specific with v numbers, just that he was going to rewrite it (aka, v2) and abandonded it |
| [21:50:57] | skd5aner: | long ago |
| [21:51:14] | sphery: | surprised that Canonical didn't pick it up if it's floundering... they've taken on several other things (don't they do bazaar by themselves?) |
| [21:51:16] | skd5aner: | I did stumble across this a while back, which I thought was interesting – http://bbyidx.com/ |
| [21:51:20] | Beirdo: | stuartm: yeah, we likely will be "stuck" with the wiki for the time being |
| [21:51:25] | wagnerrp: | well after a half day messing with it, i _really_ have no taste for drupal |
| [21:51:30] | skd5aner: | Best Buy created their own, then open sourced it |
| [21:51:50] | wagnerrp: | its nothing to do with the inability to get it to work, but more the architecture in general |
| [21:51:58] | skd5aner: | yea |
| [21:52:31] | wagnerrp: | i prefer independent sites be run independently |
| [21:52:44] | wagnerrp: | rather than as modules on a shared framework with a single shared database |
| [21:53:34] | rockhound (rockhound!~rockhound@d069064.adsl.hansenet.de) has left #mythtv () | |
| [21:54:03] | stuartm: | we need to reach a consensus on 'cancel' in menus/dialogs – I don't think it belongs, since every user has to have ESCAPE bound to back out of most screens there's no reason to waste menu space on cancel button, but again whatever is decided it has to apply to all menus or none of them |
| [21:54:48] | wagnerrp: | stuartm: plus cancel doesnt really do anything anyway |
| [21:54:51] | Beirdo: | Hmm. That's a bit outta my domain. |
| [21:54:56] | wagnerrp: | theres cancel, back, and nex |
| [21:55:01] | Beirdo: | I'm admittedly not a UX person :) |
| [21:55:05] | wagnerrp: | and back and cancel do the exact same thing |
| [21:55:19] | sphery: | +1 for no cancel |
| [21:55:21] | allesmueller: | +1 for ESC only |
| [21:55:25] | allesmueller: | :D |
| [21:55:54] | Beirdo: | Whatever works.. and yeah, we all need ESC bound anyways. |
| [21:56:33] | ** stuartm is stuck in compile hell ** | |
| [21:56:41] | ** stuartm needs more cores ** | |
| [21:56:50] | skd5aner: | stuartm: I'm decent friends with a UX expert – if we had a clear, concise list of things that she could review (with mockups/wireframes/and/or screenshots) then she might be willing to lend her opinion/expertise |
| [21:57:05] | skd5aner: | stuartm: but if we're looking for actual design advice, that might be more than she's willing to "lend" |
| [21:57:34] | skd5aner: | In other words "here's a dialog box, in this context, should it have a cancel button or not (or other)?" |
| [21:57:41] | skd5aner: | with a screenshot of before/after |
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| [22:00:43] | skd5aner: | stuartm: I wouldn't expect to try and launch an ideatorrent-like solution before 0.25... wiki is good for now |
| [22:00:59] | skd5aner: | I can always manually load things in a different system later |
| [22:04:33] | stuartm: | skd5aner: thanks for the offer, when things are less hectic we might give that a try :) |
| [22:08:30] | Seeker`: | Anyone around that wants to have a quick talk about http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/10210 ? |
| [22:09:30] | Seeker`: | I think I've found a 1-line fix, but want to know whether I've missed something important |
| [22:09:57] | skd5aner: | it's markk's ticket, if he's around or not |
| [22:10:00] | stuartm: | heh, the irony of pcAnywhere having security holes allowing anyone to access your machine from anywhere is really too good |
| [22:10:44] | Seeker`: | skd5aner: anyone that understands the code would do :) |
| [22:10:54] | wagnerrp: | markk: something of note on #10286, he appears to be developing this thing against 0.24 rather than 0.25 |
| [22:11:34] | Seeker`: | or even the theory behind how the initialisation of liveTV should work |
| [22:17:27] | stuartm: | markk, wagnerrp: that patch draws direct to the screen, it really needs to draw to an image which is then assigned to MythUIImage |
| [22:17:58] | stuartm: | and it doesn't follow coding standards, e.g. member variable prefixing and indentation |
| [22:18:14] | wagnerrp: | beyond me... i was just commenting on the use of the old VERBOSE versus the new LOG |
| [22:18:31] | wagnerrp: | and more specifically, he strangely reverted all the LOG calls to VERBOSE ones |
| [22:26:24] | stuartm: | oh ffs, I reported an issue with an original title to TMDB and Travis opted to delete it because it wasn't a film |
| [22:26:41] | stuartm: | so where do you put metadata for DVDs of live events? |
| [22:26:50] | wagnerrp: | hehe |
| [22:26:59] | wagnerrp: | concert? |
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| [22:28:14] | stuartm: | musical (not mine I might add) |
| [22:30:29] | stuartm: | I wasn't the one who added it to TMDB so at least it wasn't my work that was wiped out, but it does raise an interesting question about the stuff that falls between the cracks of TMDB and TVDB |
| [22:34:01] | markk: | stuartm, wagnerrp: I just thought I'd feed back to him. was curious enough to take a look but not something that I'm going to spend time on in a hurry. |
| [22:35:25] | stuartm: | I might be imagining it, but since changing the image loading code it feels quite a bit faster |
| [22:35:59] | markk: | Seeker': heading to bed, can you pastebin the patch or stick it in the ticket? |
| [22:35:59] | Seeker`: | markk: got a minute? |
| [22:36:56] | Seeker`: | I'll write it up in the ticket. It is just adding a ReinitVideo() to JumpToProgram() because the video is initialised with a dummy not livetv. |
| [22:37:17] | stuartm: | markk: I'll try and point him the right direction, although Beirdo has shown interest in mythweather most recently |
| [22:46:39] | xris: | someone mention my name earlier? I saw marks in my client but lost the buffer before I could see who said what. |
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| [22:48:35] | Seeker`: | -09:02:01- :stuartm : xris: yeah, I fixed the sorting so that the best matches remained at the top of the list, previously the whole list was sorted and it destroyed the structure burying the best matches sometimes beyond the 100 channel limit we impose in mythtv-setup (for performance reasons) |
| [22:48:40] | Seeker`: | -21:43:35- :skd5aner : I was working with xris on it a little, in terms of what we could run on the server (and couldn't) |
| [22:53:30] | stuartm: | http://irc.mythtv.org/ircLog/channel/4/2012-01-26 |
| [23:12:51] | Beirdo: | sorry, was off in a meeting |
| [23:13:11] | Beirdo: | I'm good to work on some mythweather stuff, but if someone else is keen, by all means. |
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| [23:42:15] | stuartm: | xris: can we change all lyngsat icons in the DB to use the www address ? The current urls just redirect from http://lyngsat to http://www.lyngsat and the time it takes to make two requests adds up (especially with the http image code in trunk which is for some reason incredibly slow) |
| [23:42:40] | xris: | oops. yeah. remind me tonight, though. |
| [23:42:56] | xris: | I don't have any real work at work anymore, but for some reason I'm still not idle. |
| [23:43:11] | xris: | s/tonight/in a few hours/ |
| [23:43:44] | stuartm: | I thought I had fixed it, but I must have missed something |
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| [23:50:14] | xris: | you see the draft document I added to my new github repo last night? |
| [23:50:58] | xris: | will hopefully have stuff a bit more settled tonight. assuming my brain isn't friend from the politics of being about to be laid off. |
| [23:53:25] | stuartm: | no, I missed it |
| [23:54:14] | stuartm: | ugh, that's not good – a huge number of icons are now showing a 'lyngsat logo' image instead – http://www.lyngsat-logo.com/logo/tv/hh/history_hd.jpg |
| [23:57:05] | stuartm: | damn, they are checking the referrer all of a sudden, we're screwed |
| [23:58:52] | stuartm: | if you visit their website the icons are fine, but call them up directly or via the services management pages and you get served a different image |
| [23:59:48] | stuartm: | although wget works, so maybe just when they are embedded in another page |
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