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| [14:20:20] | stuartm: | taylorr: the justification is theme controlled, as is the width |
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| [15:57:24] | taylorr: | stuartm: is the OSD subtitle box independently controlled or is it a common type for all the OSD boxes? |
| [16:07:57] | stuartm: | the menu? |
| [16:14:03] | stuartm: | If you mean the menu it's the same for everything, to save themers having to create hundreds of definitions and images should they size things differently according to context |
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| [17:06:04] | taylorr: | stuartm: cool, thanks |
| [17:07:44] | taylorr: | so to be clear, if I want to change the justification and size for the subtitles list it will have to affect all OSD menu's? |
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| [18:12:21] | stuartm: | yes |
| [18:14:39] | stuartm: | we re-use as many dialogs as possible to make life easier for themers, though there is still a significant number of them |
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| [18:16:08] | stuartm: | it's occasionally limiting but a reasonable trade-off, especially considering that we're struggling to find people willing to create a complete theme – all of mine are unfinished ... |
| [18:18:47] | taylorr: | totally understand |
| [18:19:05] | stuartm: | we could reduce the length of that string, it seems redundant to add 'Subtitle #: ' when the title of the menu is 'Select Subtitle' |
| [18:19:35] | taylorr: | the problem is that the language description + "(forced only)" or just "(forced)" gets truncated for many languages |
| [18:20:13] | taylorr: | we could just not add "forced only" and make it an option that you can enable or disable |
| [18:21:41] | stuartm: | taylorr: that might be the way to go, a blu-ray player for example doesn't ask that you explicitly enabled forced subtitles, that's why they are 'forced', it just uses the system language to determine which forced subtitles to show you |
| [18:22:41] | taylorr: | so basically forced is always on and full subtitles are toggled |
| [18:22:44] | sphery: | yeah, I'd be for the "just enable forced ones, regardless" approach (rather than a new setting) |
| [18:22:53] | stuartm: | these would be subtitles that for DVDs etc would be in-image anyway, with blu-ray they made them separate to allow a single disc to be distributed to several countries |
| [18:23:36] | stuartm: | taylorr: exactly that I think – it's clean and simple |
| [18:24:14] | taylorr: | it's a little confusing... you have two types of "forces": 1) the full subtitle track with segments marked with a force flag and 2) the track marked "forced" by the container (ie. MKV) |
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| [18:25:17] | stuartm: | forced subtitles are even used when the language in the film is nonsense/fictional – e.g. Sci-fi (Klingon), it just means that they can show Spanish to Spaniards and French to Frenchies |
| [18:25:44] | taylorr: | the only issue with the simple way is that if you have the English subtitle track playing only showing the forced segments and want to change to Spanish then it will enable all subtitles |
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| [18:26:02] | taylorr: | you'd then have to toggle them off and have the code still honor any segments with forced marked |
| [18:26:59] | taylorr: | just saying that having a list with (forced only) allows a user to know exactly what they are selecting |
| [18:27:01] | stuartm: | that seems like it might be a fringe case, households with two different primary languages? |
| [18:27:19] | taylorr: | sure... maybe I shouldn't worry about atypical cases |
| [18:29:05] | taylorr: | I could make the code present the user when selecting a PGS subtitle from the list a popup that asks "Forced only Yes/No" |
| [18:31:44] | stuartm: | I think we should be ok to emulate the behaviour of a commercial blu-ray player and only if users express interest in added functionality do we need to go to added trouble |
| [18:32:13] | taylorr: | what is the behaviour of a commercial blu-ray player? |
| [18:32:50] | dekarl: | whats a "household with two primary languages"? Does a household with some people prefering the english original voices and some others prefering the localized dub a candidate for that? |
| [18:33:37] | taylorr: | ok, I think we should keep it simple then for now |
| [18:33:38] | sphery: | or maybe just another level under the menu? Subtitles->Spanish->All|Forced Only ... Though I think it's reasonable to say that selecting Spanish subtitles turns all subs on, then turning off Spanish subtitles turns off all but forced |
| [18:34:23] | taylorr: | just by default select the PGS subtitle for the preferred languange and if then change to another subtitle track it will enable the all subtitles |
| [18:34:25] | stuartm: | taylorr: to always display forced subtitles for the language matching the UI language, enabling subtitles toggles the full track, if you select 'Spanish' subtitles you get the full Spanish track not just the forced subtitles in Spanish |
| [18:34:26] | sphery: | since most of the time, the user's Language setting should allow us to choose the right language the first time |
| [18:34:53] | taylorr: | stuartm: Ok, I agree... that's what I implement |
| [18:36:33] | taylorr: | sphery: hmmm, that's actually a good idea... I could add a second entry for each language that says says simply (forced only) underneath the full subtitle track |
| [18:37:12] | taylorr: | it will kinda look stupid though... since the items are center-justified and nothing lines up at all |
| [18:37:36] | taylorr: | I'll play with it and see how it looks... if I don't like the look then I'll go with stuartm's ideas |
| [18:39:03] | sphery: | Yeah, I'd prefer the simpler approach that stuartm proposed... But if you really want to allow users to specify which one every time they select, keeping it in the menu makes more sense than a secondary popup. |
| [18:40:07] | taylorr: | right, we could have the Subtitle menu that has Toggle/Select changes to Toggle/Select/Forced Only then populate the lists accordingly |
| [18:40:48] | taylorr: | that might solve all the issues |
| [18:41:24] | taylorr: | I'll implement the easy approach first and then think more about advanced control later |
| [18:42:18] | dekarl: | does it make sense to say "forced subtitle language follows the audio language" and "enabling full subtitles in any language will disable the forced subtitles in the audio language and vice versa"? That would require no additional controls. |
| [18:45:38] | sphery: | taylorr: That actually sounds like a good plan. If you want to make it a setting (so it remembers across playback), please make it a "Live setting" (meaning there's no widget for it in setup, but just selecting a value in playback writes that value to the DB). |
| [18:49:34] | sphery: | taylorr: or you could actually enable subtitles automatically based on the value of DefaultCCMode. I have a patch which is changing it and Prefer708Captions to live settings (and changing Prefer708Captions to be the more general PreferredSubtitles or whatever). I could extend my patch to extend DefaultCCMode to become DefaultSubtitleMode and have a tri-state that is off/on/forced only (rather than the current boolean) |
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| [20:35:14] | stuartm: | there's a checkbox facility in MythUIButtonList that is hardly used, it would actually be appropriate for the audio/subtitle track selection to show what is/isn't enabled |
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| [20:43:35] | taylorr: | sphery: it would be nice for the player to remember which subtitle track was used last but I'm not interested in implementing that – I'll lay the ground work and if someone wants to add that feature then it'd be great |
| [20:45:57] | sphery: | taylorr: yeah, it makes sense for me to add that support after changing the current settings to live settings and extending them, as above |
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| [20:57:07] | stuartm: | I thought we did remember the last used track in the past but due to the confusion that caused the feature was removed? |
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| [21:20:31] | sphery: | stuartm: the remembering I was planning was "subtitles enabled/disabled" and--after extension--have a 3rd state of "forced only" |
| [21:20:53] | sphery: | so it wouldn't be a per-disc thing or anything |
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| [21:21:14] | sphery: | and it would be like on a TV where when you enable captions/subtitles, they're enabled until you disable them |
| [21:21:32] | stuartm: | sphery: it doesn't work that way in the UK |
| [21:21:52] | sphery: | and would get a couple of "user shouldn't need to make the decision in the setup menus" settings into an accessible location |
| [21:22:16] | sphery: | so how does it work in the UK |
| [21:22:35] | stuartm: | but I do prefer settings to be in context menus and not buried under general settings where they can't easily be toggled |
| [21:24:36] | stuartm: | sphery: well that's a good question, maybe I should double check – I'm thinking of the teletext subtitle days where changing channel would necessitate subtitles being enabled again, they wouldn't persist |
| [21:25:30] | stuartm: | it was a technical limitation but reasonable too (unless you were deaf), you might enable subtitles because of mumbling actors in one show but not expect them to remain on-screen when you came to watch something the next day |
| [21:26:01] | stuartm: | sphery: it's not important I guess, toggling them off again isn't difficult |
| [21:27:55] | sphery: | yeah, it seems to me that when you enable them, they should stay enabled until you disable them rather than relying on some external event to disable them (i.e. exiting playback, switching recordings, switching channels, ...) |
| [21:28:53] | sphery: | anyway, if people really dislike it, I can switch around the way we determine whether they should always be enabled or not (similar to how I'm doing the preferred captions/subtitles) |
| [21:35:59] | stuartm: | heh, so TMDB has re-branded |
| [21:37:40] | stuartm: | oh, no they haven't ... so why am I receiving email from 'movieposterdb.com' when I've never heard of that site before |
| [21:38:20] | ** stuartm hits the unsubscribe link ** | |
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| [21:44:43] | skd5aner: | gbee: yes, you have – http://forums.themoviedb.org/topic/269/site-c . . . posterdbcom/ |
| [21:44:49] | skd5aner: | er, stuartm :) |
| [21:45:07] | skd5aner: | (confusion of course because you posted as GBee in that thread) |
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| [22:04:39] | sphery: | So, FWIW, for you UK devs, it seems that the MYTHMHEG_PROXY patch is now officially in Trac at http://code.mythtv.org/trac/attachment/ticket . . . -netwo.patch (on #10019 ). Just mentioning since it might be easy to miss in the 9 patches required on that ticket, so it would be easy to miss making the silent fix to have it use HTTP_PROXY like the rest of MythTV. |
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| [22:08:16] | iamlindoro: | I am confused |
| [22:08:30] | iamlindoro: | How could one get MHEG programming and not be someplace where iPlayer is local? |
| [22:08:38] | iamlindoro: | aside from maybe the northern coast of France? |
| [22:08:44] | cattelan_away is now known as cattelan | |
| [22:08:59] | iamlindoro: | that is, how can one get MHEG programming that is linked to iPlayer |
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| [22:25:16] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: Freesat (DVB-S) has a footprint covering much of NW Europe |
| [22:26:10] | stuartm: | and it's the satellite one which is offering the iplayer integration, although I understand that it's coming to Freeview (DVB-T) very soon |
| [22:29:02] | stuartm: | it's a tight-beam constellation but 'tight' is relative – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_2D – "Although the satellite's beam is tightly focused on the United Kingdom and Ireland, surrounding countries have the ability to pick the signal up (dependent on suitably sized satellite dishes)." |
| [22:30:32] | stuartm: | some Freesat channels are also on Eurobird1 – which as the name implies covers the continental landmass too |
| [22:32:15] | cesman (cesman!~cecil@pdpc/supporter/professional/cesman) has joined #mythtv | |
| [22:32:58] | stuartm: | sphery: thanks for doing the digging |
| [22:46:22] | wagnerrp: | anyone mind if i temporarily block new user creation the the wiki? |
| [22:46:37] | wagnerrp: | weve got some guy who has been spamming it all day |
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| [22:48:54] | cesman (cesman!~cecil@pdpc/supporter/professional/cesman) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | |
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| [22:58:14] | iamlindoro: | no objection |
| [22:58:42] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: interesting-- good to know that at least it's a limited number of people who can game the system |
| [23:04:31] | wagnerrp: | done |
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