Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Sunday, August 14th, 2011, 00:32 UTC

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[02:36:13]

Captain_Murdoch:

wagnerrp, for your commandlineparser changes, it would be nice if we could do something to show that certain options take arguments or optional arguments.

[03:09:07]

wagnerrp:

what do you mean?

[03:09:20]

wagnerrp:

Captain_Murdoch

[03:09:22]

Captain_Murdoch:

some args are bools, some take a string.

[03:09:31]

wagnerrp:

give me an example

[03:09:44]

Captain_Murdoch:

--nodblog doens't take any options, but --chanid does.

[03:09:44]

wagnerrp:

specific one

[03:09:55]

wagnerrp:

mythcommflag --help chanid

[03:09:56]

wagnerrp:

:)

[03:10:51]

Captain_Murdoch:

right, but most programs show that in their normal help output. either via something like "--chanid [CHANID]" or "--chanid=CHANID" or similar.

[03:11:12]

wagnerrp:

ah, i see what youre getting at

[03:11:47]

wagnerrp:

easy enough change to the short help generator

[03:11:59]

Captain_Murdoch:

just a nice to have if you have nothing else to do. :)

[03:16:30]

Captain_Murdoch:

mythutil would definitely benefit from --help order preservation and grouping of items. so far I have a bunch of stuff reimplemented in it though. [sg]etcutlist/[sg]etskiplist/clear(skip|cut)list/gencutlist from mythcommflag, a 'queuejob' command to queue any job type, reched/clearcache/setverbose/setloglevel/scanvideos/event/systemevent from mythbackend. a 'copyfile' command like we were talking about. and I added a --me

[03:16:30]

Captain_Murdoch:

ssage that does what mythmessage does but haven't tested that yet.

[03:20:19]

Captain_Murdoch:

some things like --printsched and --printexpire would be harder to extract since they depend on classes inside programs/mythbackend.

[03:20:57]

wagnerrp:

well then... i guess i need to stop watching tv and actually get this thing finished then

[03:20:59]

wagnerrp:

:)

[03:21:58]

wagnerrp:

anyway, the only problem i see with the --chanid=CHANID is all the different variations on the option are put on the same line

[03:22:14]

wagnerrp:

and that is used as an indent for the actual help string

[03:22:31]

wagnerrp:

but its easy enough to just have it automatically drop to the next line if that length gets over some pre-set amount

[03:22:42]

Captain_Murdoch:

yeah, I've seen that handled several ways in other programs. all requiring a lot more logic on the help display side.

[03:23:11]

wagnerrp:

it might be nice to actually use the terminal width, rather than hard set 79 characters

[03:23:16]

wagnerrp:

if you know how to pull that off

[03:24:29]

wagnerrp:

the only way i know of to pull that information is through curses

[03:24:39]

Captain_Murdoch:

there's a way to get it, but I don't recall how. 'stty -a' can get it from a command line, so at least on *nix, it's programatically accessible.

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[03:30:46]

wagnerrp:

do you need ordering, or is grouping and nesting sufficient?

[03:32:33]

wagnerrp:

nesting being... in mythfilldatabase, --sourceid and --xmlfile would be automatically grouped under --file

[03:32:35]

Captain_Murdoch:

for some *nix C code that uses an ioctl, scroll down to a quote from Michael Gordon at http://forum.soft32.com/linux/terminal-width- . . . t479542.html

[03:33:18]

wagnerrp:

great, thanks

[03:33:31]

Captain_Murdoch:

grouping and nesting takes away most of the need for ordering, so it's not as big of a deal if the other two exist. it's more of an issue if you have 20 command line args and two related ones are #3 and #19 because of the alpha sorting.

[03:38:08]

** Captain_Murdoch goes afk2b (away from keyboard to bed) :) **

[03:38:34]

wagnerrp:

well i should have this done to look at in the morning

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[04:45:22]

Beaver:

Hey, anyone active?

[04:45:43]

wagnerrp:

nope

[04:46:21]

Beaver:

Always good. I'm a newb with a few quick questions if you have a minute. I googled first, I promise.

[04:46:39]

iamlindoro:

don't hunt for someone to answer your question, he might know nothign-- just ask a question

[04:46:41]

wagnerrp:

these are development related questions?

[04:47:39]

** iamlindoro suspects the answer is no, but he's too busy typing it out to tell you so ;) **

[04:47:47]

Beaver:

Nope, just some general compatibility issues about the HDDVR and DirecTV.

[04:48:24]

Beaver:

Aaaaand I just read the title bar.

[04:48:26]

Beaver:

Oops.

[04:48:50]

Beaver:

Mea culpa.

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[05:40:48]

xris:

hmm, I think mythweb needs some better math for disk usage calculation: 436 programs, using 2 TB (293 hrs) out of 2 TB (483 GB free).

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[05:49:49]

xris:

wow. delete some stuff and now it's: 425 programs, using 1017 GB

[05:50:36]

xris:

that's not right.

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[10:14:48]

stuartm:

I just knew there would be someone with a stupid setup who would complain about the loopback patch, so now I'm being asked to revert it to help one guy maintain his complicated 'security' policy to the detriment of pretty much every other user

[10:15:05]

stuartm:

someone should explain NAT to him

[10:16:02]

stuartm:

xris: it does need something better, mine says something like "(-14423423 hrs)"

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[10:18:56]

stuartm:

xris: mythweb could just use the figures straight from the backend status page (xml version)?

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[12:04:48]

sphery:

xris: Is your PHP compiled with GMP support? We've now switched to using 64-bit integers instead of our old 2x32-bit ( https://github.com/MythTV/mythweb/commit/6ee5 . . . d002f10980fc ), so maybe you're getting overflows using PHP integers? (If so, I'm guessing it's a 32-bit host?)

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wagnerrp:

stuartm: how could hitting loopback be insecure?

[13:22:03]

stuartm:

wagnerrp: I've no idea

[13:23:45]

stuartm:

what's really stupid is that he's prepared to patch the backend to not listen on all interfaces, but he wants me to revert that commit instead of him maintaining another patch ...

[13:25:51]

stuartm:

he's the archetypal enemy of simplicity that I've described here previously, he wants to do something really complicated and in a really complicated way and he expects MythTV to bend to his whims

[13:28:20]

stuartm:

99.9% of users are probably content to use NAT and firewalls to provide the same level of 'security' but at 1/10th the effort ...

[13:28:32]

stuartm:

and what is it all for? A MythTV box that should be running on an internal network anyway ...

[13:40:58]

iamlindoro:

stuartm: To hell with 'em-- we may shed the occasional crazy as we try to simplify... but we knew that was coming when we first set out to do it

[13:44:17]

stuartm:

I'm going to request that he post to the -dev list so that his concerns can be addressed in the open and I won't have to keep having the same discussion as one or two others inevitably emerge from the woodwork to complain

[13:45:03]

danielk22:

stuartm: No matter what you do someone will be impacted negatively in a project this size.

[13:47:17]

danielk22:

If he's worried about listening on all interfaces, that's already a lost battle. It's necessary for a sane UPnP implementation as well.

[13:49:54]

danielk22:

And the same, or better, level of security can be obtained with a $99 router or a $35 NAT bridge.

[13:58:48]

stuartm:

well at least no-one thinks I'm in the wrong on this one

[14:02:24]

stuartm:

there may be other ways of achieving the same thing, but I still think that the justification for doing it differently has to be reasonable

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[15:25:40]

wagnerrp:

you know... if your system is locked down so tight that youre blocking connections to localhost

[15:25:47]

wagnerrp:

i think you need to see a therapist

[15:30:12]

sphery:

but what if the therapist is just talking to you to try to distract you so that his cohort can sneak into your house and put a backdoor in your firewall?

[15:30:42]

iamlindoro:

wagnerrp: Because you're attempting to quiet the voices already in your head?

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[15:47:47]

stuartm:

sphery: would GMP show up in the 'info' output from php? If so then that seems to be the issue with Ubuntu 10.10

[15:50:47]

stuartm:

only this is a 64bit machine and it's not the diskspace values which are screwy but the number of hours which seems to have overflowed

[15:51:18]

sphery:

stuartm: I think you can find out using php-config --configure-options and looking for --with-gmp .

[15:51:47]

stuartm:

and I really doubt that I've got enough recorded on that machine to overflow a 32bit int ;)

[15:52:52]

sphery:

I think we determine runtime by subtracing recstartts from recendts--so if you have a screwy value for those (i.e. as would be the case if you've used the recording DB import scripts), you'd likely get a mess for that

[15:56:38]

stuartm:

sphery: aha, it's optional on ubuntu and not installed as a dependency of mythweb

[15:58:16]

sphery:

do they install bcmath support ( --enable-bcmath )? If so, we could add a bcmath fallback before going to the PHP built-in ints

[15:58:18]

stuartm:

heh, with gmp installed it's now showing nothing at all for the # hours

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[16:00:07]

stuartm:

bcmath is enabled

[16:01:28]

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[16:02:20]

sphery:

hmmm... seems reasonable for my (dev) system: 22 programs, using 75 GB (19 hrs 6 mins) out of 1.1 TB (1 TB free).

[16:03:03]

sphery:

are you sure all your starttime/endtime values are valid in recorded (and no end before start or similar)?

[16:05:05]

stuartm:

heh, 5 recordings with a starttime < endtime, two are 3 year old live tv recordings for which no corresponding file exists

[16:05:49]

sphery:

heh, wonder if those are in the deletepending state--I have a 90% patch to resume those after last time you mentioned it (a year ago or?)

[16:06:33]

stuartm:

they've gone now ;)

[16:07:24]

stuartm:

hmm, I think the others were all 'imported' via myth.rebuilddb.pl, the enddates are at the epoch start – 1970

[16:08:15]

sphery:

yes, I hated those scripts because they corrupt db data

[16:16:12]

stuartm:

ok, having fixed those I get a more sensible "8 days 11 hrs 21 mins"

[16:19:16]

stuartm:

which is my production system, with just 500 GB of space, vs my dev system with 3TB+ and the one I actually use (yes, it's completely backwards)

[16:23:09]

stuartm:

heh, deleted a 1hr recording and it's jumped to (202 hrs 18 mins)

[16:23:20]

stuartm:

I think I'll let xris figure that out

[16:24:12]

stuartm:

seems like the javascript update it broken, refresh the entire page and it's working again

[16:33:45]

sphery:

heh, yeah, sounds like JS code just doesn't convert it back to days (since 202hrs is just under 8.5 days)

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potatoe:

How can I hide the yellow folder icon in MythVideo ?

[16:44:03]

iamlindoro:

potatoe: wrong channel, see topic

[16:47:32]

potatoe:

Ooops, sorry.

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[17:04:34]

stuartm:

heh, that icon was never meant to be displayed in most views, it's a bug that was never fixed

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[17:05:30]

stuartm:

although he may have meant the statetype icon and not the 'up' node which is what I was referring to

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[18:34:59]

stuartm:

sphery: what's going on then?

[18:37:15]

sphery:

stuartm: it's the "ping the db port using telnet" hack

[18:37:59]

sphery:

we're using mythsocket in the telnet() function in util.cpp, and it's converting to localhost

[18:38:24]

stuartm:

ah

[18:38:28]

sphery:

I'm planning on just removing that, but am testing to see how well we handle the qt drivers failing to connect and see if we can get similarly useful error messages

[18:38:40]

sphery:

(similarly useful to the existing one we get from the ping hack)

[18:40:54]

sphery:

Mitch Capper was in #-users and did some testing for me (part that took me forever was figuring out that he configured the DB to use network connection even though it's local)

[18:42:20]

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[18:43:15]

jams:

thought thats what it was, it's one of the fews things that made sense.

[18:44:04]

stuartm:

I'd forgotten all about the db 'ping'

[18:47:06]

sphery:

Yeah, well I've been looking for an excuse to remove it, so I appreciate your change :)

[18:47:27]

sphery:

I feel that the Qt-MySQL drivers should be figuring out how to connect to MySQL, not us

[18:48:46]

iamlindoro:

In fact, the issue ends up benefiting us... one more useless setting gone :)

[18:48:56]

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[18:51:17]

sphery:

heh, my mythbackend start script checks to see if the db is running before starting mythbackend, so that explains why I'm not getting logs for mythbackend startup when mysqld isn't running

[18:54:35]

stuartm:

I can't wait for the ticket, "I get no logs when the backend isn't running!"

[18:57:29]

sphery:

should I assign it to you?

[18:59:36]

sphery:

and with upnp, I need to turn off my production system to prevent that from confusing my messages...

[19:08:06]

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[19:20:22]

xris:

sphery: 64bit host. not sure about gmp — whatever is standard for fedora. no gmp would cause an error from that code, though, so it must be.

[19:20:52]

xris:

oh, never mind. I see the "if function exists" now.

[19:21:41]

sphery:

yeah, sounds like it would be worthwhile to put a bcmath fallback in there, too, for Ubuntu's default config. I may throw one together in the next couple days.

[19:22:35]

sphery:

but I can't see it overflowing a 64-bit int, so not sure what's happening (unless you have differently-versioned mythbackend and mythweb--the order of programinfo args changed recently)

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[19:38:40]

stuartm:

hmm, is mythbuntu using their own repo? The sha1 from the latest packages doesn't seem to exist in our repo

[19:40:50]

sphery:

which sha1?

[19:41:15]

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[19:42:46]

stuartm:

g515171d

[19:44:07]

wagnerrp:

v0.24.1-69-g515171d

[19:44:10]

wagnerrp:

looks fine to me

[19:44:48]

stuartm:

I can't find it anywhere in the 0.24 branch (or any branch)

[19:45:14]

stuartm:

github has no record of it either

[19:45:25]

sphery:

gotta take off the g (for git)

[19:45:31]

wagnerrp:

:)

[19:45:37]

stuartm:

ah, bugger, I keep doing that

[19:46:33]

stuartm:

thanks :)

[19:47:38]

sphery:

so, triggering this code (to see what happens so I can compare with the "after" case) is not easy

[19:47:44]

stuartm:

the 'g' is misleading and probably redundant

[19:48:27]

sphery:

the whole config.xml/mysql.txt/upnp autoconf mess is getting in my way--really wish I had finished extending your patch to clean that up

[19:48:34]

wagnerrp:

on the other hand, SHA doesnt allow the use of 'g'

[19:49:10]

sphery:

actually, hexadecimal representation of SHA doesn't allow the use of g :)

[19:49:10]

stuartm:

wagnerrp: granted

[19:50:12]

stuartm:

it's still basically an alphanumeric string and a lower case letter stuck on the front doesn't exactly stick out

[19:51:45]

sphery:

I think they're just parsing the final token out of git describe's output, using – as the delimiter... might be able to convince them to remove the first character of the token, too

[19:52:51]

xris:

sphery: if the backend is already doing the calc, it would probably be better to just write a query for it

[19:53:16]

stuartm:

it's the version string we use too, so if we were going to do something about it then we'd have to fix it on our end too, probably just easier to leave it alone

[19:53:50]

stuartm:

I'll just need reminding every few weeks :p

[19:55:20]

sphery:

xris: in recorded, you do the calc because you're showing the total for only the group the user selected and, even for the available space, you're making a user-friendly SI units display value with GB or whatever

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[19:56:09]

xris:

it's not entirely correct, though. that UI always bugged me

[19:56:12]

xris:

but yeah, that makes sense.

[19:56:30]

sphery:

not to say that making a new service-api service that provides just the list of recordings you want and totals would be a bad idea

[19:56:37]

xris:

it should really display used/total/free (local used)

[19:56:39]

xris:

or something like that

[20:06:46]

stuartm:

the more information that is pulled directly from the backend the less inconsistency there will be in the values between the frontend, mythweb or any other client

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[20:45:29]

xris:

stuartm: yeah, that's one of the reasons I've been hinting/pushing at building myth more like an API server structure.

[20:45:42]

xris:

get as much logic as possible into as few places as possible

[20:45:55]

xris:

front ends like mythweb shouldn't be expected to do any "mythtv" related calculations

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[21:36:00]

stuartm:

gigem: nice

[21:37:38]

sphery:

gigem_: heh, I had that patch done--and put it on hold while I did the DB port ping patch

[21:37:56]

sphery:

thanks for doing it--wasn't trying to get you to do it when I asked about it.

[21:42:47]

stuartm:

sphery: the discovery/db config stuff is convoluted and difficult to test all the possible combinations, it's at least partly why I never got further than I did

[21:43:30]

stuartm:

but also a good reason to eliminate mysql.txt and simplify it

[21:44:53]

sphery:

yeah, exactly--your patch seems to be a /great/ start on that, but I also got distracted with some other changes

[21:46:17]

sphery:

I plan to take yours even farther--to the point of unwinding some of the "Well, if you have mysql.txt and or config.xml, we may completely ignore it if one of our tests that succeeds on some developer's machine fails due to different system config on yours, then we'll use UPnP, even though you told us about the DB info" type confusion

[21:51:12]

sphery:

stuartm: So, in my work on the patch that duplicated gigem_'s efforts, I noticed that "Allow this episode to re-record" is in "sentence" case in the RecordedPopup, but all other menu items use "title" case (such as "Edit Recording Schedule"). However, "Allow this episode to re-record"--and all other items in popups in proglist.cpp--use sentence case. It seems playbackbox has more title case popup items, and proglist has sentence case. Does ...

[21:51:14]

stuartm:

I'm not sure I'd keep calling that patch 'great', there wasn't much to it that I remember and it didn't go nearly far enough, I'm glad to hear that you'll sort out the issues

[21:51:18]

sphery:

... it make sense to standardize these across all screens (and maybe gain the benefit of fewer translations in the process). I can ask knightr how he'd like me to do it to minimize "busy work" for translators (i.e. whether he wants me to edit the source in the .ts files).

[21:51:45]

sphery:

I was also thinking of standardizing the capitalization on key binding help text (which is a mix of sentence and title case, now)

[21:52:55]

knightr:

sphery, what do you mean by edit the source in the ts files?

[21:53:00]

stuartm:

sphery: please feel completely free to sort out the case issues and I wouldn't worry about the translations, it's too convoluted to manually edit all the themes to match up

[21:53:14]

stuartm:

sphery: I'm sure knightr would agree with me here

[21:53:26]

stuartm:

s/themes/translations/

[21:58:27]

knightr:

stuartm, sphery, I am trying to figure out what you mean but my guess is that you want to change something in the translated text in the source code and want to try to edit the translations so that the translators don't have to retranslate it? if so, I would tend to agree with stuartm, it's probably not worth it and don't worry, Qt Linguist will probably offer the translators to use the old translation for the new string if it seems close enoug

[21:58:28]

knightr:

h for it...

[21:58:47]

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[21:58:49]

sphery:

knightr: If I change a bunch of strings, like "Edit Recording Schedule" to "Edit recording schedule" in our source, it would force all the translators to re-translate them, right? If so, would it make sense for me to edit the <source> element of the .ts files to allow the existing translations to be used?

[21:59:23]

sphery:

ah, so Linguist might actually do a case-insensitive match and offer it, even though the .ts files are case sensitive...

[22:00:30]

knightr:

sphery, yep, I am not sure how Qt Linguist does it but it does offer potential/similar matches... We frequently use it so that we translate a similar sentence in the same way...

[22:00:50]

stuartm:

even if it doesn't, it's entirely possible that it would need to be translated differently, or that non-english users would like the same consistency in the strings they see

[22:01:59]

stuartm:

the number of strings that will need re-translating in this way will be tiny in comparison to the thousands that translators will already have completed

[22:02:06]

sphery:

cool, thanks for the input. I'll try to work on that one of these days

[22:02:10]

knightr:

stuartm, yep though we frequently do not respect the case used in English as it in not appropriate in many languages to use caps every other word (or almost) like sphery example..

[22:02:38]

knightr:

s/sphery/sphery's

[22:03:06]

knightr:

stuartm yep and they already have to work on them and Qt Linguist will do most of the job for them...

[22:04:21]

knightr:

(and even in English I think I read it's no longer recommended to use caps like that, right?)

[22:04:28]

knightr:

spery, np...

[22:06:45]

sphery:

I prefer the "sentence" case--i.e. start the first word with capital and don't capitalize all the words. I guess we need to come up with a standard, though

[22:08:32]

knightr:

sphery, I was told that the other way (capitalize all the words) was deprecated in English but I could be wrong since it is not my mother tongu

[22:09:07]

stuartm:

it's tricky, there isn't a grammatical rule that I'm aware of, titles are usually capitalised but prose is not, menu items in most applications are capitalised but it doesn't seem so appropriate when those strings reach a certain length

[22:09:27]

stuartm:

all that really matters is that we're consistent about it throughout

[22:10:17]

sphery:

stuartm: what's your preference? seems we have 2 votes for "sentence" case :)

[22:10:34]

sphery:

I'll send an e-mail to -developers and see if anyone has strong feelings one way or the other

[22:10:51]

stuartm:

sphery: I really don't have a preference, except as I say that it's applied strictly

[22:11:10]

sphery:

sounds good

[22:12:10]

iamlindoro:

My preference is ever so slightly for Initial Letter capitalization, following the rule of words less than four letters are not capitalized

[22:12:16]

iamlindoro:

(which is the way I was taught)

[22:12:59]

stuartm:

I'd love to do an audit of strings, remove near duplicates, use the same terminology throughout and avoid technical descriptions but that's a huge job, more than one person can achieve on their own

[22:13:40]

sphery:

yeah, this would be another of my "need a mindless job" changes--for when I don't feel like really thinking about code

[22:13:42]

stuartm:

and yes, that's not quite what we're talking about here, but since we're on the subject

[22:14:34]

stuartm:

It's hard to believe that there are as many unique strings in the code as we have now

[22:14:58]

sphery:

the main reason I like the sentence capitalization is that it seems more re-usable--such as in the key binding help descriptions (though about half of those currently use title case)

[22:15:18]

iamlindoro:

These nice people have user interface guidelines for this kind of thing: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#docum . . . 0000365-SW10

[22:15:19]

sphery:

so I guess either would work really...

[22:15:42]

iamlindoro:

(and they happen to agree with me WRT menu items ;) )

[22:16:31]

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[22:17:43]

sphery:

Apple? I think someone in #-users once said, "Don't be like Apple" (twice, even)--obviously wanting to choose a successful company to emulate rather than a wannabe like Apple. ;)

[22:18:48]

iamlindoro:

Being completely honest, my desire for title case in menu items is purely instinctual, it's just the way that every application I which comes to mind that I use with any regularity does it

[22:19:09]

iamlindoro:

Sentence case in menus just looks "weird" to me

[22:21:16]

sphery:

If that's the case, I could just do title case and not send the e-mail asking for input :) Seems stuartm is only after consistency (whichever way), and that's my primary concern, too. I'm guessing knightr would be ok with it, too.

[22:21:49]

iamlindoro:

I agree with all concerned that consistency would be nice, meaning we could make a decision and codify it somewhere, and then it becomes policy

[22:22:09]

iamlindoro:

the PBB has mostly title case, with a few sentence case, for example

[22:22:32]

sphery:

right, but other screens have all sentence case

[22:22:55]

iamlindoro:

I don't understand how that contradicts my point

[22:23:04]

sphery:

granted, more people have seen the pbb ones than, for example, the proglist ones--so maybe the others would be title case if people ever saw them

[22:23:50]

iamlindoro:

MythVideo all title case too

[22:24:08]

sphery:

Cool. I'll go title case, then

[22:25:16]

iamlindoro:

I am only suggesting that maybe it would still be worth the e-mail, even if it only says, "Hey, in the interest of consistency I've gone to title case in x, y, z, and it probably ought to be project policy, speak now if you object"

[22:25:40]

iamlindoro:

Then nobody can complain when we do it universally, and we can put it in dev/UI/design docs on the wiki

[22:25:57]

iamlindoro:

Well, I take that back, people can always complain ;)

[22:26:06]

sphery:

heh

[22:26:42]

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[22:38:23]

knightr:

sphery, np as long as it is consistent, if it's not appropriate for a language to have caps throughout the sentence, the translators can remove them in their translation...

[22:39:30]

sphery:

sounds good--thanks for the input

[22:40:44]

knightr:

(consistent will mean that we have one string to translate and not two where only the case is different... Qt linguist would hep with that but we would have duplicate (except for case) strings for nothing...)

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[22:46:01]

iamlindoro:

I want to clarify that I never think it's appropriate for a sentence to have title case-- But we're talking about Menu Items here

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