| Tuesday, January 4th, 2011, 00:35 UTC | ||
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| [03:41:52] | whitey: | good evening |
| [03:42:22] | whitey: | anyone happen to know or can point me in the right direction on why my mythfrontend and mythtv-setup screens all grey out and are largely garbled and I cannot make out the words |
| [03:42:41] | whitey: | almost like a blank grey screen but there does seem to be some small garbled letters/menu's??? |
| [03:43:14] | iamlindoro: | wrong channel, see topic |
| [03:43:32] | whitey: | sorry headed there now |
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| [07:00:04] | mjb_: | I have a question. I'm having some difficulty making sure that my HT processor is getting 5.1 surround from my MYth recordings. I'm using MythTV 0.24-fixes an HDHomeRun, recording ATSC over the air. |
| [07:00:37] | mjb_: | MY Processor is reporting PCM, 48 kHz, 2 CH. |
| [07:01:22] | mjb_: | I guess my first question is, is there a utility I can use to peek at what's written t the .mpg file? |
| [07:02:33] | mjb_: | I think that's the place to start...if that reports AC3, then I can move through the chain. I'm not sure if the problem is the way the file is recorded? If Myth incorrectly set up at playback time? Maybe my Processor is misconfigured somehow? |
| [07:02:43] | mjb_: | Anyone have any ideas? |
| [07:02:56] | iamlindoro: | wrong channel, see topic |
| [07:03:10] | mjb_: | ah crap...development... |
| [07:03:13] | mjb_: | sorry. |
| [07:03:22] | mjb_: | Going to users.... |
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| [09:51:42] | ** stuarta ho hums ** | |
| [09:55:22] | Beirdo: | enjoy the quiet :) |
| [09:55:47] | Beirdo: | it's far better than the mayhem we had a few days back |
| [09:56:18] | Beirdo: | stuarta: you have any plans in mind for how to split up the work for the setup rewrite stuff? |
| [09:56:36] | Beirdo: | not sure how that's made it into your busy schedule, etc :) |
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| [10:04:55] | Beirdo: | well, bed for me. |
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| [10:20:17] | stuartm: | danielk22: you might already know this one, but 'svn diff -x -w' produces a diff with the whitespace changes stripped |
| [10:21:47] | stuarta: | Beirdo: i'm still stuck at step 1. send email calling for design input |
| [10:22:42] | stuarta: | although there's one thing thats definitely a task, and that's to go through the current stuff and make sure the UI and the process code aren't one and the same |
| [10:25:48] | stuartm: | which there are in almost 100% of that code, which is just one reason why we're re-writing it |
| [10:26:16] | stuartm: | and re-writing it from scratch |
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| [11:08:57] | danielk22: | stuartm: You mean for my convoluted example of git add -p is useful? I do, but I don't use it. Moving through the changes in emacs allows me to review them as well. |
| [11:10:31] | stuartm: | fair enough |
| [11:10:35] | danielk22: | stuartm: I find emacs to be a much better tool for reviewing non-trivial changes than svn diff because it gives me more context by default and the ability to easily break out of the diff and look at more context or amend and then resume my diff. |
| [11:23:54] | stuartm: | when reviewing my own changes I use the diff to be sure that only the changes I intended to make are part of the commit, I do the review itself in the editor |
| [11:24:29] | stuarta: | never met anyone before who actually _uses_ emacs |
| [11:25:53] | danielk22: | hehe, Not just that but years before I was on the internets and discovered emacs I had written my own macro powered editor.. |
| [11:26:11] | stuartm: | I use emacs all the time, but never for more than small changes, editing configs etc |
| [11:27:17] | danielk22: | I don't use it for a web browser or e-mail or calendering, just as a very powerful editor with good RCS and diff integration. |
| [11:27:31] | stuartm: | I always get myself into trouble with vi, invoking modes by accident with no clue how to get out of them |
| [11:27:41] | stuarta: | i use vi or kdevelop |
| [11:28:15] | stuarta: | years ago i forced myself to learn vi as that was the only thing i could guarantee was installed on a solaris box |
| [11:28:20] | stuartm: | kdevelop for large projects, kate for tinkering |
| [11:29:38] | danielk22: | I only use vi when absolutely necessary. Last time I used it was almost two years ago on a Solaris box. |
| [11:31:03] | stuartm: | coming up from Windows where I'd discovered and loved Ultraedit, kdevelop is the closest I've found, it's more IDE than full-featured editor and I don't use much of that 'integrated' stuff, but I appreciate the diff integration, the find-in-files integration etc |
| [11:32:37] | stuartm: | e.g. click on a line in a diff or list of search results and it will open the relevant file and take you straight to that line, that alone probably saves me hours of work in the average week |
| [11:33:47] | stuartm: | well, slight exaggeration |
| [11:35:22] | danielk22: | emacs doesn't do find as well as an IDE; but I personally find kdevelop too mouse-y. But egrep is a powerful enough tool for me most of the time. |
| [11:35:51] | stuarta: | i found kdevelop with ctags integration quite good for tracking down where code is |
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| [14:05:38] | elmojo: | danielk22: I'm wondering if the misreported bitrate could be responsible for some of the livetv/channel change issues we've been seeing this release |
| [14:06:04] | elmojo: | I know you discovered a race condition too but wondering if this might also be involved |
| [14:06:34] | elmojo: | hd-pvr recordings and some MPEG2 broadcasts are known to get the bitrate wrong |
| [14:07:01] | elmojo: | please let me know then it's ok to backport |
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| [14:53:54] | stuartm: | hmm, is it possible to only push a single commit? |
| [14:54:56] | stuartm: | fwiw I can't see an answer in the man pages of git push |
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| [15:08:14] | jannau: | stuartm: to be safe: git fetch; git checkout -b tmp123 origin/master; git cherry-pick $SHA1' git push -n origin tmp123:master |
| [15:08:30] | jannau: | s/'/;/ |
| [15:09:17] | stuartm: | err, I'll just reset and re-commit just the change I want to push |
| [15:11:36] | ** iamlindoro is really sick of people deciding to make executive decisions on ticket he's closed ** | |
| [15:11:47] | iamlindoro: | without so much as a word of discussion |
| [15:12:10] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: sorry |
| [15:12:43] | ** stuarta spanks stuartm for iamlindoro ** | |
| [15:13:13] | stuartm: | honestly I don't believe discussing it would have lessened the agro caused, but still, I'm sorry for not talking to you about it first |
| [15:13:19] | iamlindoro: | stuartm, So what, now we should have tickets for every last annoying behavior of myth? If so, I'll open a few... thousand |
| [15:14:17] | iamlindoro: | stuartm, Well, if it's something you want to assign yourself and handle, I don't care at all, but we on the one hand close tickets which relate to similar known limitations all the time, and this time it's different? Color me confused |
| [15:14:19] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: it's a bug, one that we've agreed before now is a regression and one that I'm not personally willing to live with, if that means I have to be the one who fixes it then so be it |
| [15:15:06] | stuartm: | there are limitations and there are regressions, I classify this as the latter and yes, I'm willing to work on it should I ever get the time |
| [15:15:26] | iamlindoro: | How is it a limitation when video playback on storage groups has never been possible? |
| [15:16:01] | iamlindoro: | anyway, it's too early in the morning to waste emotional capital on, it's reopened |
| [15:16:26] | stuartm: | considering we're moving towards _only_ allowing playback via storage groups, a 30–60 second delay in playback start becomes a regression |
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| [15:25:55] | Captain_Murdoch: | not sure how you're going to eliminate the fact that the library itself needs to open those hundreds of small files 2+ times each. unless you're planning on creating a cache on the frontend so you don't have to send open/close calls to the backend. there were a couple thoughts about speeding that up, such as returning the first X bytes of data with the open call so a later read isn't necessary, but that requires caching on the |
| [15:25:55] | Captain_Murdoch: | frontend. it's not a simple 'add BD/DVD playback support to the protocol instead of using RemoteFiles. |
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| [15:29:27] | ** Captain_Murdoch just wishes people would stop referring to remote playback ability as 'supporting Storage Groups'. Storage Groups are local things, the ability to play/stream/etc. a file from a remote Storage Group is the same as play/stream/etc. from a remote directory. ** | |
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| [15:30:33] | Captain_Murdoch: | we should allow the FE to play from a local Storage Group directory somehow. for instance there could be a Removable Media Storage Group which had /mnt/cdrom, etc. in it. |
| [15:36:44] | stuarta: | i dunno about anyone else, but i see the "Storage Group" stuff as the way to get to the file, request a file and the SG code finds it whereever it is |
| [15:39:06] | stuartm: | Captain_Murdoch: I haven't got a clue how I'll fix it, I wasn't even planning on being the one to fix it until now when it's become clear that no-one else wants the job |
| [15:40:00] | stuartm: | enough blood has been spilt here in the last 24 hours, let's not start adding to it |
| [15:42:12] | stuarta: | out of interest what ticket? |
| [15:43:17] | stuartm: | the fact that the files are remote has little or no bearing on the speed issue, the same ISOs accessed via NFS start playing back in well under a minute, so there is room for improvement |
| [15:43:41] | stuartm: | stuarta: http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/9437 |
| [15:46:33] | Captain_Murdoch: | stuartm, probably because the OS is caching. that's a 50% speed improvement if each file is accessed twice. |
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| [15:47:18] | Captain_Murdoch: | not trying to start anything, just saying it won't be a simple patch. :) |
| [15:48:55] | stuartm: | yeah I know, headache is already forming |
| [15:49:25] | Captain_Murdoch: | we talked about creating a cache in the RingBuffer potentially. rather than a single ring, it could be a list of blocks so we can cache data at various points in the file. that doesn't solve the case of non-ISO playback though for BD's. those are lots of tiny files which are opened at least twice each. and it doesn't help that hte BD lib opens, seeks, reads, closes, etc.. Daniel and I optimized parts of that already, so it' |
| [15:49:25] | ** GreyFoxx posts a supply of ibuprofen ** | |
| [15:49:25] | Captain_Murdoch: | s not as bad as it was when I first added support for remote playback. |
| [15:57:29] | stuartm: | Captain_Murdoch: I'll start by getting DVDs down to a sane point |
| [15:57:46] | stuartm: | or trying to |
| [15:59:38] | stuartm: | but not today and probably not in the next 2 months |
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| [16:22:47] | stuarta: | so many things to code, so little time |
| [16:24:00] | wagnerrp: | i added mention to the mailing list etiquette page to never use URL shorteners |
| [16:24:17] | wagnerrp: | im surprised that actually needed to be explained to people |
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| [16:43:18] | danielk22: | stuartm: With DVD's we used to depend on libdvd doing the caching for us. But I recall seeing a markk commit shortly before 0.24 that said something about disabling libdvd caching to fix a bug. This is separate from the streaming issues which I think iamlindoro is right to call a limitation not a regression. |
| [16:44:03] | danielk22: | stuartm: But even if that it isn't a regression it is certainly something I'd like to see fixed and would be joyful if you looked at it. |
| [16:45:01] | danielk22: | stuartm: And as Captain_Murdoch mentioned we talked about it and fixed some of the slowness, but obviously there is a lot of room for improvement. |
| [16:45:13] | ** iamlindoro would be happy to see it fixed/improved too, no argument there ** | |
| [16:45:25] | stuarta: | in many areas |
| [16:45:38] | ** stuarta feels playback startup is too slow ** | |
| [16:45:51] | iamlindoro: | It was more philisophical, in that we pick and choose which limitations are bugs, and which are merely "where we're at right now" |
| [16:47:27] | stuartm: | I class it as a regression only because we're currently steering users away from NFS to our streaming, if that streaming can't deliver the same level of performance then the end result from a user perspective is a regression |
| [16:48:23] | stuartm: | but I'm not going to quibble on which term we use, either way it needs works |
| [16:48:30] | stuartm: | s/works/work/ |
| [16:48:38] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: I completely understand your point, and agree at that-- it's just that ticket triage tends to follow a fairly rigid set of rules, and to me that ticket seemed invalid |
| [16:48:57] | iamlindoro: | because it just puts you on a slippery slope |
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| [16:50:39] | danielk22: | iamlindoro: if we mark it as a "task" ticket it is valid :) |
| [16:51:16] | iamlindoro: | heh, well however we choose to label it, I'll be happy to see it resolved |
| [16:53:12] | stuartm: | well marking that stuff deprecated for doxygen was a waste of time, it appears almost as a footnote in the generated docs, I was hoping for something more obvious |
| [16:54:42] | stuarta: | i thought it showed up when you looked at the function description |
| [16:55:54] | stuartm: | more obvious for functions, not so much for classes where it's buried after the main description, inheritance diagrams and member list |
| [16:56:25] | stuarta: | :( |
| [16:56:26] | stuartm: | no big flashing red text either |
| [16:56:39] | stuarta: | or "go away stupid" sign? |
| [16:57:04] | ** stuarta dies of boredom waiting for qt to build on mac ** | |
| [16:57:25] | stuartm: | ah well, if we ever finish the setup rewrite and mythmusic port then that code can finally be deleted |
| [16:57:41] | stuarta: | we'll have to start the setup rewrite first :-p |
| [16:58:24] | ** skd5aner casts Raise Dead spell on stuarta ** | |
| [16:58:49] | stuarta: | i think i'm immune |
| [16:59:20] | stuarta: | dunno why we don't just download the compiled package and use that |
| [17:00:41] | ** stuarta goes home ** | |
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| [17:30:43] | danielk22: | elmojo: I think it's safe to backport the bitrate fix & pull the ringbuffer fix into trunk. |
| [17:32:12] | danielk22: | The since I applied the ringbuffer fix I haven't had any berserker mythcommflag processes, but they weren't all that common to begin with so I'm not yet 100% sure the change fixes it. |
| [17:34:47] | elmojo: | danielk22: which ringbuffer fix? |
| [17:35:55] | elmojo: | after reading your latest git lesson I guess I'll have to re-do how I backport the bitrate fix :) |
| [17:39:43] | elmojo: | nm, I remember now... you made that ringbuffer fix to -fixes a while back but not trunk |
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| [20:38:30] | stuartm: | mythmusic's avfdecoder reads a frame with av_read_frame() into an AVPacket, then feeds that packet to avcodec_decode_audio2 ... if there was any undecoded data it then loops and decodes the rest, but from my reading of the ffmpeg docs the looping seems redundant? |
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| [20:39:23] | stuartm: | av_read_frame() reads exactly one frame and avcodec_decode_audio3() decodes one frame, so there should never been any undecoded data in that packet? |
| [20:40:22] | stuartm: | it seems the loop is used in examples but only where av_read_frame() is not being used, since it's possible that AVPacket may in those cases may contain more than one frame |
| [20:40:35] | stuartm: | does that sound right? Or am I mis-understanding? |
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| [21:03:06] | stuartm: | jannau: can you review the following – http://mythtv.pastebin.com/ZamLGZ45 – it works in testing but I'm not 100% certain I've read the docs correctly and therefore whether removing the loop is the right thing to do |
| [21:07:13] | Chutt: | try a .amr file, or a 3gp/mp4 file with amr-nb audio |
| [21:07:28] | Chutt: | those generally have multiple frames per packet |
| [21:07:42] | stuartm: | thanks, I'll do that |
| [21:07:43] | Chutt: | so you'd see for sure if the decoder needs a loop or not |
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| [21:12:32] | elmojo: | stuartm: take this with a grain of salt, but I agree with your view on the use of the new decode function |
| [21:13:14] | elmojo: | hopefully the multi-frame packet samples will confirm |
| [21:14:16] | stuartm: | if I can find a useful sample in that format :) |
| [21:14:23] | Chutt: | heh |
| [21:14:32] | Chutt: | i have tons, but, can't redistribute :p |
| [21:17:01] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: ftp samples.mplayerhq.hu |
| [21:17:06] | iamlindoro: | login anonymous |
| [21:17:07] | stuartm: | google is being obtuse, I've found one site which offers lots of samples at different bitrates but none of the links work |
| [21:17:14] | iamlindoro: | cd MPlayer/samples/A-codecs/amr/ |
| [21:17:20] | iamlindoro: | ??? |
| [21:17:21] | iamlindoro: | Profit! |
| [21:17:48] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: thanks |
| [21:18:09] | iamlindoro: | np |
| [21:18:21] | Chutt: | oh, wait |
| [21:18:29] | Chutt: | does ffmpeg contain the amr-nb decoder by default? |
| [21:18:48] | iamlindoro: | I *think* sufficiently new ffmpeg does now-- but I'm not sure if that's newer than our last sync |
| [21:19:11] | stuartm: | oof, that's one awful sounding codec |
| [21:19:17] | iamlindoro: | Hmm... should probably be, looks like .6 in June hand an AMR-NB decoder |
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| [21:19:19] | Chutt: | it's 8kbps |
| [21:19:25] | Chutt: | of course it's awful sounding :p |
| [21:19:26] | stuartm: | Chutt: ffplay handles them just fine |
| [21:19:52] | stuartm: | guess I should try mythffplay to be sure |
| [21:19:53] | elmojo: | you can use mythffplay now to know if our version should work or not |
| [21:19:55] | elmojo: | :) |
| [21:20:06] | stuartm: | yeah, that works |
| [21:20:21] | Chutt: | a 3gp file with amr? |
| [21:20:22] | Chutt: | or .amr? |
| [21:20:42] | stuartm: | .amr with mythffplay, I've not yet tried it with mythmusic |
| [21:20:44] | Chutt: | oh, wait, it's a max of 12kbps, not 8, i was wrong :p |
| [21:20:55] | stuartm: | ftp://samples.mplayerhq.hu/MPlayer/samples/A- . . . r/sample.amr |
| [21:21:00] | Chutt: | yeah, you're more likely to see a problem with a .3gp file |
| [21:21:02] | iamlindoro: | A world of difference ;) |
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| [21:21:11] | Chutt: | iamlindoro, hey, it's 50% :p |
| [21:21:21] | elmojo: | stuartm: you could always see what ffplay does with regards to looping :) |
| [21:21:25] | iamlindoro: | true |
| [21:21:49] | Chutt: | stuartm, amr's the speech codec for phones, mostly |
| [21:21:53] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: subdir gsm-amr has some .asf containers, dunno if that would make a difference |
| [21:22:20] | Chutt: | i don't know how asf would pack amr, but i do know 3gp usually puts 4 or 5 packets per frame |
| [21:23:11] | iamlindoro: | amr in 3gp here, login required: http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2789 |
| [21:26:18] | stuartm: | elmojo: true |
| [21:29:21] | stuartm: | ok, sample.amr does _not_ work with mythmusic + my patch and it buggers up the decoder so that nothing will subsequently play |
| [21:29:37] | Chutt: | heh |
| [21:29:39] | iamlindoro: | Well besides that, it's okay, right? ;) |
| [21:30:01] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: A OK ;) |
| [21:30:43] | stuartm: | ok, back to square one |
| [21:32:25] | stuartm: | I yanked the loop because it didn't seem to fit with the docs and simply substituting avcodec_decode_audio3 in the existing code caused crashes, so plan B is to generate a new packet with the unread contents of the previous packet |
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| [21:36:19] | stuartm: | guess I should try mythmusic without the patch, might not be my patch causing the problem at all |
| [21:36:45] | Chutt: | might not have ever worked |
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| [21:40:13] | stuartm: | nah, doesn't worked in unpatched mythmusic |
| [21:41:27] | stuartm: | so I'm back to the question of whether that patch is technically correct, it works for all the mp3 and ogg files I've thrown at it, I suppose I should test flac, aac, wma and a few others to be thorough |
| [21:41:47] | stuartm: | oh and wav/cda |
| [21:43:12] | ** stuartm wonders what happened to his audio sample directory ** | |
| [21:44:36] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: Also bear in mind that the mplayer samples dir are often sources for samples related to decoder bugs... so might not be your fault/myth's fault at all |
| [21:47:21] | stuartm: | crap, looks like I lost those changes .... must not blame git |
| [21:48:50] | danielk22: | elmojo: the ringbuffer fix, 8a75ed22606fe91de5c9 in the dkristjansson/mythtv-rec branch. |
| [21:48:53] | stuartm: | after all if a worker loses fingers to machinary in a factory you blame the worker, not the lack of safeguards in the equipment |
| [21:49:35] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: Mmmm, That's the Industrial Age outlook we like around here! Bring on the cheap child labor! |
| [21:52:00] | stuartm: | luckily I uploaded the patch to pastebin.com, unluckily pastebin.com mangles patches and this one won't apply |
| [21:52:42] | stuartm: | but also luckily this is a very simple patch so it won't take too long to re-write |
| [21:54:36] | stuartm: | done |
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| [21:56:26] | ** stuartm wonders when it's going to click that if it takes this long to explain how long something works then it's overly complicated ** | |
| [21:58:32] | ** iamlindoro just doesn't want to be yelled at about how ignorant he is any more ** | |
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| [22:13:48] | Captain_Murdoch: | iamlindoro, count me in the "certain people" as well. I don't want to have to type more at the command line than I have to type in the actual code I'm modifying. |
| [22:14:33] | Chutt: | so |
| [22:15:42] | Chutt: | time for me to chime in on the mailing list? |
| [22:15:49] | Chutt: | or should i just keep my mouth shut? :p |
| [22:15:52] | elmojo: | please do |
| [22:16:22] | Chutt: | i would be suggesting to switch back to svn |
| [22:16:42] | elmojo: | people are threating to jump ship |
| [22:17:14] | Chutt: | - it's not "fun" to be told it will take a few months to learn a VCS, and without fun, there is no project |
| [22:18:04] | Captain_Murdoch: | I totally agree. |
| [22:18:12] | Chutt: | - most of the complaints are from the highly contributing devs, who i (rightly or wrongly) listen to opinions more carefully |
| [22:19:33] | Captain_Murdoch: | totally agree on that point as well. |
| [22:19:39] | Chutt: | - the length of emails explaining how to do simple tasks is just absurd |
| [22:19:41] | Chutt: | heh |
| [22:20:30] | Chutt: | i had a couple more reasons, but |
| [22:20:30] | Captain_Murdoch: | time for me to head home. |
| [22:20:56] | Captain_Murdoch: | I think I see blood dripping from all the tongue biting. :) |
| [22:21:21] | wagnerrp: | !seen kormoc |
| [22:21:21] | MythLogBot: | kormoc was last seen 3 days 22 hours 56 minutes 14 seconds ago |
| [22:21:29] | wagnerrp: | same over here too... |
| [22:23:18] | Chutt: | i think having a public, official git mirror would get you most of the same "benefits" as having the main tree in it |
| [22:23:38] | Chutt: | ie, you could still work in git, just squash, generate a patch, stick it in the svn tree |
| [22:23:56] | elmojo: | good idea |
| [22:24:43] | elmojo: | better than the "Github has a beta svn interface so everyone can be happy" |
| [22:28:19] | elmojo: | thinking about it more that is the most sane idea I've heard to date |
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| [22:36:25] | danielk22: | Chutt: I wouldn't mind an official git mirror at all. My position is that I can see myself possibly becoming productive in git but the learning curve is too steep for a volunteer project. |
| [22:38:32] | danielk22: | Dunno if it makes more sense for the steering committee to call a vote vs you speaking with the voice of the former benevolent dictator ;] |
| [22:39:29] | elmojo: | at a minimum his thoughts, ideas and concerns should be conveyed |
| [22:45:32] | jya (jya!~avenardj@mythtv/developer/jya) has joined #mythtv | |
| [22:48:46] | Chutt: | danielk22, we switched at work quite a while ago, now |
| [22:49:00] | Chutt: | most people still haven't figured out all the quirks |
| [22:49:16] | Chutt: | and our workflow is arguably simpler than what you guys are trying for |
| [22:51:04] | Kunalagon (Kunalagon!~Kunalagon@212.200.241.58) has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | |
| [22:51:57] | stuartm: | danielk22: ditto, I'm already managing with git just fine, but the complexity doesn't go away once you understand how to use it and a learning curve which involves weeks or even months of use is no good for new contributors |
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| [22:52:49] | jya (jya!~avenardj@mythtv/developer/jya) has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | |
| [22:58:49] | stuartm: | I'm a little bothered that I had the steering committee thrown at me the other night, to paraphrase – "two out of three of the steering committee back git" ... forgive me for pointing out that the steering committee was not elected afaik, it was a self-appointed group and appeared so quickly that when I left for a weeks holiday there was no such idea, and when I came back it was already handing down proclamations |
| [23:02:01] | xris: | stuartm: steering commitee happened because isaac handed *me* control and I figured that if I just took over it'd be worse than before. Janne and Chris were put forward as good options for steering committee, and no one objected. |
| [23:02:35] | xris: | and your paraphrasing is wrong... you're using present tense (however true it may be), when my comment was at least meant to be past tense. |
| [23:05:00] | xris: | as for the "why"... devs were asking for some direction. a few of us thought that a more powerful tool like git would help make dealing with patches and large branches easier. Gave people ample time to play with janne's git branch and object, and people didn't. |
| [23:05:17] | stuartm: | let me be clear, I'm not opposed to the idea of a steering committee nor do I have any problems with those chosen to form it, but prior to that week we had worked out a system of voting on important matters and I don't see how the steering committee changes that |
| [23:05:18] | xris: | we elected to test out git for a release cycle, based on people being ambivalent or at least willing to experiment/learn |
| [23:05:45] | xris: | steering committee doesn't change that method of voting. |
| [23:06:14] | xris: | the 2.5/3 "vote" from steering committee came after a lot of discussion with other devs. |
| [23:06:27] | xris: | maybe I was wrong in quoting it as a steering committee decision. |
| [23:06:34] | xris: | or rather, before other dev discussion. |
| [23:07:10] | xris: | 2/3 of steering committee said "we think git will help", devs discussed and basic consensus was reached that we should try. so we did the git migration |
| [23:09:00] | xris: | as part of the steering committee, I can say we're being torn (often by the same people) to both do something, and to stop meddling. |
| [23:09:29] | xris: | there's no real way to win when 90% of devs abstain from any decisionmaking. |
| [23:11:07] | stuartm: | I tend to agree with that, I have a very different perspective on how things went down and maybe it would help to discuss that at a later date because it might affect how future decisions are made, but now probably isn't the appropriate time, emotions are too high |
| [23:11:40] | elmojo: | all I know is that we had a lot of momentum until this transition occurred and I'm still wondering if one of the superdevs has checked out for good or is taking a well deserved vacation |
| [23:11:41] | xris: | yeah. I think our voting method sucks. voting by email sucks unless we end up with a defined quorum count, etc. |
| [23:12:11] | balor (balor!~aidan@87.127.55.57) has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | |
| [23:12:41] | xris: | honestly, anything I can do to get people like iamlindoro to stop thinking of the steering committee as product managers and more like idea consultants would be a good thing for me. |
| [23:13:27] | xris: | since there's no way the majority of devs would start taking directions from "product managers"... and I think mythtv would be a less fun project to work on if it was treated TOO much like a day job. |
| [23:13:44] | stuartm: | I still count the failure to at least try the latest svn as a mistake, that step would have cost us nothing at all – we might still have ended up trying out git but I guess we'll never know how it would have played out |
| [23:14:01] | elmojo: | it's a less fun project because we are trying to use a tool that is insanely complex and overkill for what we do |
| [23:14:54] | elmojo: | personally I'm ok with the time spent so far because I'm gaining some knowledge and insight into a new, cool tool – but it ends there |
| [23:14:56] | xris: | elmojo: the setup rewrite project stalled because of a few things: a couple of people pushing for it have been bumping heads on a personal level, people forgot that stuarta offered to be project manager, and no one knew how a project manager was supposed to behave for mythtv because we've never done that. |
| [23:15:45] | xris: | even iamlindoro (who claims via email to be hopelessly lost with git) is also claiming to have been extremely productive in the last few weeks |
| [23:15:46] | stuartm: | I personally don't recall anything about git being trailed for the entire cycle, I don't doubt it was said but I do think that some are hoping that after the cycle no-one will have the energy to fight for a return to SVN, that it will be too late to turn the ship around |
| [23:15:52] | elmojo: | I'm not even talking about the setup rewrite project – the "superdev" I'm referring to was making some incredible changes which some probably don't pay enough attention to |
| [23:15:57] | xris: | Beirdo and wagnerrp checked in a huge rewrite of the mythsystem stuff |
| [23:16:40] | elmojo: | yes we remember :) |
| [23:17:03] | xris: | stuartm: honestly, I only vaguely remember the "release cycle" thing... haven't had time to dig through my mail history to find a specific reference, and apparently the people who put forth the reminder haven't either. |
| [23:17:17] | elmojo: | yes, I *never* heard about a full release cycle |
| [23:17:26] | elmojo: | how about we cut 0.25 this week and be done with it |
| [23:18:54] | xris: | I'm still waiting for someone to give a real valid reason for why to switch back. so far only stuartm and danielk22 (and maybe you, but I haven't been around irc much when you were talkign about it) have given good arguments. |
| [23:18:59] | elmojo: | I think Chutt's idea needs to be seriously evaluated which is public, mirrored git repo that you git lovers can use for your development and have svn be the main repo |
| [23:19:17] | xris: | because git->svn doesn't work well at all |
| [23:19:30] | xris: | (argument being "I tried it, I really did, and I just don't like it") |
| [23:19:49] | stuartm: | I did repeatedly say that switching to another VCS at the start of a bit new project wasn't a good idea, I don't think it has helped the setup re-write any but I'll concede there are other factors which have also caused that to stall – not least the idea went to committee and like anything which goes to committee it suddenly wasn't so simple any more |
| [23:19:58] | elmojo: | ffmpeg uses that exact model |
| [23:20:19] | xris: | stuartm: but setup rewrite project was stalled for weeks before we moved to git |
| [23:20:39] | elmojo: | yes, because we just finished a release and the holidays were upon us |
| [23:20:56] | xris: | heck, when I asked iamlindoro 2 weeks ago to ping stuarta about it, he refused to do so. |
| [23:22:21] | xris: | the main problem with the setup project is that a bunch of people had an idea, but didn't want to do the work to wrangle everyone else who was needed to get the project done. |
| [23:22:35] | xris: | and when they found someone to do it, they didn't tell him what they needed him to do. |
| [23:23:03] | xris: | maybe it was because they were so focused on learning (or badmouthing) git, but that's not the only excuse. |
| [23:23:05] | elmojo: | xris, to be fair I think git is cool but I still don't believe it's appropriate for this project for many valid reasons – and now with people talking of quitting or some who may already have then I'm no longer willing to wait it out |
| [23:23:48] | elmojo: | people contributing code and having fun is the most important parts of the project... PERIOD |
| [23:24:02] | xris: | has anyone even gone and tested the github svn stuff? |
| [23:24:22] | xris: | it was pointed out a few weeks ago, and then again by me a few days ago... |
| [23:24:40] | stuartm: | one of the problems might have been thinking that we needed a manager at all, we should already have committed the basic framework that danielk22 wrote and be building upon it incrementally, if that means that the finished product is rough around the edges that's not a problem the kinks can be worked out just as we've always done |
| [23:24:51] | xris: | stuartm: that is correct. |
| [23:24:51] | elmojo: | so hows the github svn stuff going to fix the commit-hooks and revisioning? |
| [23:25:12] | stuartm: | xris: s/few/two/ – I'll test it just as soon as I've finished what I'm currently working on |
| [23:25:13] | xris: | I think a huge part of the PM issue is that we've never had a PM on this who wasn't also the one pushing the project. |
| [23:25:40] | elmojo: | sorry but those are huge to me and make the project more fun because it makes it easier to get work done |
| [23:25:47] | Beirdo: | stuartm: I think that was my basic suggestion way back when iamlindoro and others were campaigning for it to be the push of 0.25 |
| [23:26:20] | Beirdo: | elmojo: the commit-hooks need some love from a python dev |
| [23:26:30] | xris: | or a switch away from trac |
| [23:26:36] | Chutt: | heh |
| [23:26:39] | xris: | not sure what's wrong with the revision stuff |
| [23:26:40] | Chutt: | sorry, was making meatloaf |
| [23:26:42] | elmojo: | what's wrong with trac! |
| [23:26:42] | Beirdo: | the versioning is the way it is, and that's the way git works. |
| [23:26:53] | elmojo: | it sucks |
| [23:26:55] | stuartm: | oh lets not start changing the bug tracker now |
| [23:27:11] | xris: | stuartm: honestly, I'm more annoyed at jira at the moment than trac. |
| [23:27:13] | Beirdo: | what's wrong with trac is that the git-trac and github-trac plugins are both buggy and need tweaking |
| [23:27:22] | Chutt: | xris, as a counterpoint, i haven't seen any reasons to stay with git |
| [23:27:22] | Beirdo: | past that, we can easily live with trac |
| [23:27:26] | elmojo: | sounds like a git problem to me |
| [23:27:35] | Chutt: | xris, and when you have people saying they'd rather not contribute anymore due to the VCS |
| [23:27:40] | Chutt: | that's a problem. |
| [23:27:49] | xris: | Chutt: and we have people saying the same if we switch back to svn. |
| [23:27:52] | Chutt: | the VCS is supposed to help the project |
| [23:27:58] | Chutt: | xris, who? |
| [23:28:04] | elmojo: | and if the superdev that everyone knows I'm referring to is gone than so am I |
| [23:28:25] | xris: | elmojo: haven't heard mark weigh in on the topic one way or another. |
| [23:28:32] | xris: | honestly, I'd love to hear his opinion |
| [23:28:34] | elmojo: | yeah, he's not around anymore |
| [23:28:38] | stuartm: | xris: at this moment jira could be the best bit of software ever written, but attempting to solve the problems of one transition by instigating another is only going to compound the issue |
| [23:28:38] | Chutt: | the VCS is not supposed to create long threads of "i don't like this" with responses of "you're doing it wrong" |
| [23:29:44] | Chutt: | xris, what's wrong with a public git mirror, that's updated from the svn master? |
| [23:29:47] | elmojo: | sorry, but Mark and Daniel were doing incredible work with svn and never complained once about it |
| [23:30:11] | elmojo: | I base my decision out of merit and respect and will side with them always |
| [23:31:11] | xris: | Chutt: honestly, going from git to svn is a big pain. |
| [23:31:22] | Chutt: | that wouldn't be going from git->svn |
| [23:31:36] | Chutt: | that'd be automatically pushing things that are in svn to git |
| [23:31:38] | xris: | what's the point of a git mirror if you're not going to develop against it? |
| [23:31:47] | Chutt: | _some_ people could develop against it |
| [23:32:05] | Chutt: | when they've got their big commit done, they squash, create a patch, push it into svn |
| [23:32:14] | Chutt: | it'd even be about the same number of lines of commands :p |
| [23:32:17] | xris: | anyway, like I said in my early email on the subject.. I have fewer qualms than others about going back to svn. I just want people to REALLY think about why they want to revert. |
| [23:32:57] | stuartm: | xris: it seems to me that the touted benefits of git mostly lie in it's local repo stuff, the local branches etc, those wouldn't stop working just because the main repo was no longer using git |
| [23:33:03] | xris: | only a handful of people so far have real good reasons. the others are doing weird things that make their git-lives difficult, or just flat out refuse to read documentation. |
| [23:33:41] | xris: | stuartm: my personal thoughts on the benefits: merge tracking that works, pull requests, patches that attribute the original author |
| [23:34:08] | Chutt: | how many external patches / pull requests have we received via git? |
| [23:34:13] | stuartm: | jannau was working with a private git repo for those reasons, I don't remember him complaining that it made his life harder |
| [23:34:34] | Chutt: | (i haven't been keeping track of, err, stuff in trac) |
| [23:34:51] | xris: | for me, local branches are just my way to avoid some of the complexities of rebasing. |
| [23:35:13] | xris: | Chutt: doesn't help that we tried to move the server stuff at the same time, either.... |
| [23:35:42] | stuartm: | xris: the patch attribution stuff I do like very much, but on it's own it isn't a reason for me to use git |
| [23:36:01] | Chutt: | anyway, i'm just saying that my impression from the mailing list is that enough people dislike the switch to seriously consider going back |
| [23:36:49] | xris: | Chutt: so far it's almost an even vote.. the anti-git group is a lot more vocal, and the pro-git group is trying to understand/educate |
| [23:36:51] | Chutt: | speaking as someone who doesn't have a vested interest in either VCS, as i don't contribute much anymore |
| [23:36:53] | stuartm: | xris: as far as merge tracking that works, well IMHO we don't honestly know that merge tracking in the latest SVN doesn't work, I don't think anyone here has practical experience with it and we've certainly never tried it as a group |
| [23:37:08] | xris: | stuartm: we haven't had access to the latest svn, though. our old box couldn't run it. |
| [23:37:13] | Chutt: | xris, it's not anywhere close to even if you weight it based on contributions, though. |
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| [23:37:26] | xris: | Chutt: true |
| [23:37:40] | stuartm: | xris: and the first thing we did on the new box was to switch to git, go figure ;) |
| [23:37:47] | elmojo: | yes, Daniel == at least 10 of me |
| [23:38:21] | elmojo: | s/==/>/ |
| [23:38:22] | xris: | fwiw I think part of the big issue we have here is that we don't *have* a process to make decisions like this. |
| [23:38:26] | stuartm: | xris: I would have said that the pro-git group was more vocal, it's a matter of perspective |
| [23:38:39] | Chutt: | and what stuartm just said was _my_ impression |
| [23:38:45] | Chutt: | the pro-git was a more vocal minority |
| [23:38:46] | elmojo: | yes, seems people threaten to quit in place of voting :) |
| [23:38:49] | xris: | people vote but no one wants to call and end to the vote and move forward (or backward) |
| [23:39:10] | xris: | stuartm: initially more vocal, yes. but look at the recent thread |
| [23:39:34] | xris: | there's a reason why I started a new thread for git workflow discussion. |
| [23:39:58] | Chutt: | see, that was part of the problem |
| [23:40:14] | Chutt: | if you wanted people to like git, there needed to be a set of clear instructions on how to use it like svn |
| [23:40:18] | Chutt: | without causing problems |
| [23:40:20] | xris: | I read most of the complaints about git as "I don't know how to use it"... I look at people like jya and nigel who went from against/ambivalent to wanting to know more |
| [23:40:24] | Chutt: | clear _simple_ instructions |
| [23:40:34] | xris: | Chutt: there are. has anyone read the "git for svn users" document? |
| [23:40:42] | Chutt: | i haven't =) |
| [23:40:52] | xris: | it's short. it explains things clearly and simply |
| [23:40:53] | Chutt: | but then, i've used git for quite a while at work |
| [23:41:11] | Chutt: | and i don't really care what the project ends up using, as i've said |
| [23:41:17] | xris: | none of the "porcelain commands" and crap that daniel brought up. I didn't even know what they were until Beirdo explained over lunch today.. |
| [23:41:54] | xris: | "too many cooks" and people start to freak out with information overload. |
| [23:42:21] | jannau (jannau!~janne@chybek.jannau.net) has left #mythtv () | |
| [23:42:57] | Beirdo: | Chutt: before we even transitioned, we had the UsingGit page on trac, which pointed to the Git for SVN users page |
| [23:43:05] | xris: | I'm happy to work on reverting back to svn if enough of the anti-git people can honestly tell me that they read the easy howto stuff, aren't trying to do too much too quickly (no git-new-workdir, no rebase, etc), and still just don't like it. |
| [23:43:12] | Beirdo: | so... it's been available |
| [23:43:21] | Chutt: | "it's on the wiki" isn't really a good answer |
| [23:43:37] | Chutt: | heh |
| [23:43:38] | Beirdo: | AND we posted the URL in the mailing list |
| [23:43:46] | Chutt: | when we first switched, people were pointed at the pro git book |
| [23:43:59] | xris: | they were pointed to that WEEKS before we switched. |
| [23:44:01] | Beirdo: | not sure what else to do, go and put it into peoples' browsers and hit go? |
| [23:44:05] | Chutt: | (which isn't short and sweet) |
| [23:44:49] | Chutt: | but telling people they need to spend hours re-learning something they already know how to do on the old system |
| [23:45:00] | Chutt: | and then that it'll take a couple _months_ before they're comfortable with it |
| [23:45:10] | Chutt: | isn't really the best way to win hearts over |
| [23:45:12] | Chutt: | or whatnot =) |
| [23:45:20] | xris: | fwiw the only one I've heard a good anti-git argument from is stuartm... he tried, coped, but doesn't like it. danielk22's doing some weird workflow stuff, as is kormoc. |
| [23:45:53] | xris: | but even then, it's still up to us as a group to vote... and I'm still just one person |
| [23:46:18] | Beirdo: | either way, the one other thing to remember is public perception. |
| [23:46:30] | Chutt: | err |
| [23:46:37] | Chutt: | who cares? =) |
| [23:46:38] | xris: | Chutt: it took me 2 weeks to become effective and warily comfortable with git at work. |
| [23:46:44] | Beirdo: | even if it was a mistake to switch.. it's a bigger one to flop right back in short order |
| [23:46:51] | Chutt: | Beirdo, from what perspective? |
| [23:47:05] | Beirdo: | project stability |
| [23:47:11] | Beirdo: | time wasted doing it |
| [23:47:22] | Chutt: | hindsight, 20/20, etc |
| [23:47:48] | Beirdo: | as I've said before, if when we hit 0.25, we want to switch back, fine. But 1 month is hardly a fair trial. |
| [23:48:12] | Chutt: | a month is more than long enough to evaluate a vcs |
| [23:48:15] | xris: | esp. one month full of vacations |
| [23:48:21] | jannau (jannau!~janne@chybek.jannau.net) has joined #mythtv | |
| [23:48:22] | Beirdo: | especially when people who are saying that git is all so horrible are successfully checking in changes |
| [23:48:26] | Chutt: | _especially_ with vacations, given that it's an open source project |
| [23:48:36] | Chutt: | and that's when people have time available |
| [23:48:42] | xris: | heh. I did less work on mythtv on my break. |
| [23:48:53] | Chutt: | i didn't do any, so nyah :p |
| [23:48:55] | Chutt: | heh |
| [23:49:07] | xris: | jannau: welcome to the svn-vs-git discussion. :) |
| [23:50:08] | Chutt: | so, back to the public git mirror |
| [23:50:22] | xris: | Chutt: we tried that for a month and no one used it. |
| [23:50:35] | jannau: | just joined again to announce that I'll take a break (maybe permanently) |
| [23:50:41] | xris: | well, no one other than jannau and Beirdo |
| [23:50:42] | danielk22: | elmojo: I don't want my vote to count 10x. I'm not leaving the project. I will eventually figure out a workflow that works for me and I'll put with a poor rcs history. I'm concerned this is way to to complicated for new and casual contributors and the only person I really trust to grok git here is janne, and he's not around much. |
| [23:51:04] | Chutt: | what's wrong with that, given that other projects (ffmpeg) do it |
| [23:51:08] | jannau: | not because of the git svn discussions |
| [23:51:58] | xris: | Chutt: honestly, I'd personally just go back to using svn fulltime. I like git but I don't care about it *that* much. |
| [23:52:03] | jannau: | I'm too annoyed with the mythtv work I lost due to the ubuntu installer |
| [23:52:19] | jannau: | Chutt: ffmpeg will switch eventually fully to git |
| [23:52:24] | Chutt: | jannau, eventually |
| [23:52:30] | Chutt: | is the key, i think |
| [23:52:34] | Chutt: | i dunno |
| [23:52:37] | Beirdo: | jannau: would you mind punting me any scripts you used to generate your git mirror if you'll be gone? |
| [23:52:40] | jannau: | in the next weeks |
| [23:52:45] | Chutt: | i think forcing the issue was probably a mistake |
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| [23:52:51] | Chutt: | "we're switching, now" |
| [23:52:52] | Beirdo: | we may be able to reuse them if we go that direction |
| [23:53:24] | xris: | Chutt: back to my previous comment of "has anyone tried github's svn integration?" hopefully stuartm will have something positive to report soon. |
| [23:53:26] | Beirdo: | or punt them to xris :) |
| [23:53:38] | xris: | Beirdo: I have no interest in doing git-svn |
| [23:53:45] | Chutt: | jannau, something format a drive by mistake? |
| [23:53:49] | jannau: | Beirdo: no scripts, just triggered git svn invocations |
| [23:53:57] | Beirdo: | Ah, OK |
| [23:54:57] | jannau: | Chutt: just a LVM2 physical volume header written |
| [23:55:56] | jannau: | unfortunately over the luks header of the dm-crypt partition holding everything |
| [23:56:01] | danielk22: | I need to take some of the blame for forcing the push. I'd used git casually and thought the issues would get worked out pretty quickly like with every other RCS switch I've been a part of. |
| [23:57:48] | Chutt: | no fun |
| [23:58:01] | stuartm: | xris: I do intend to try the github svn integration, but I'm not going to prioritise it over what I'm now working on, at the end of the day all I want to do is make meaningful contributations to the code, that's what I find fun and if I go too long without doing something I enjoy then it really won't matter what VCS/RCS we use because I won't have any reason to use it |
| [23:58:21] | xris: | jannau: regular ubuntu installer did something like that with a raid partition of mine a few years ago. it's one of the main reasons I still use fedora. |
| [23:58:46] | xris: | stuartm: makes sense. I honestly just want to find an amicable solution to this whole thing |
| [23:59:08] | xris: | if github's svn stuff works, it would mean a LOT less work to backport changes to svn and then move back to how janne was using git before. |
| [23:59:16] | danielk22: | jannau: That's pretty scary. I had an Ubuntu 32bit to 64bit upgrade kill the Document's folder in wife home directory last year. That kind of thing never happened to me under RedHat.. but of course the upgrade cycle is glacial... |
| [23:59:41] | Chutt: | danielk22, how'd you manage to do a 32->64 bit upgrade? just re-install? |
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