| Sunday, January 2nd, 2011, 00:00 UTC | ||
| [00:00:17] | elmojo: | jpabq: is it possible until we understand how to parse the FU-A and FU-B to just assume on_frame true? |
| [00:06:14] | elmojo: | iamlindoro: that rmvb (real video) video plays at the wrong video frame frate... that might not be the only problem but it's definitely a serious issue with playing it back |
| [00:13:24] | elmojo: | jpabq: yuck, the "FU" means Fragmentation Unit – that could get nasty |
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| [00:48:39] | jpabq: | elmojo, yeah. Most of the FU-B's have DPB slices in them. Parsing the Fragmentation Units would not be too bad, if we knew the size of the RTP, but we don't know that information. |
| [00:52:13] | Beirdo: | superm1: if you are in... Looking at the bug report in #9420, it seems the person is using mythbuntu (from the mythfrontend.real), and the reported version string is incorrect |
| [00:53:20] | Beirdo: | It says: MythTV Version : 21b99f1 |
| [00:53:47] | Beirdo: | it should say : v0.24-95-g21b99f1 |
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| [04:13:51] | elmojo: | jpabq: at least you've solved the mystery... too bad it's not a simple fix :( |
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| [04:39:11] | iamlindoro: | Beirdo, Not sure what's going on with the changes in the mythsystem branch that seem to have nothing to do with mythsystem? |
| [04:39:18] | iamlindoro: | ie, MythVideo parental level changes? |
| [04:39:37] | iamlindoro: | and rewrites of themes, and...? |
| [04:39:42] | iamlindoro: | That's just scratching the surface |
| [04:40:39] | iamlindoro: | ugh, and undoing conversions of things from non-MythUI to MythUI |
| [04:40:43] | iamlindoro: | this merge is very broken |
| [04:40:50] | Beirdo: | that's the same as any other merge. |
| [04:41:11] | iamlindoro: | Any merge undoes a bunch of work having nothing to do with it? |
| [04:41:13] | Beirdo: | I have merged master into the branch, and the merge back will indicate all of the changes. |
| [04:41:56] | Beirdo: | If something has been backed out, please show me where. |
| [04:42:04] | iamlindoro: | "Merge branch 'mythsystem-rewrite'" seems to indicate it's the branch merging into master |
| [04:42:17] | Beirdo: | it is |
| [04:42:26] | iamlindoro: | You hav undone tons of stuff that's been done in the last few weeks |
| [04:42:28] | Beirdo: | I merged mythsystem-rewrite back into master |
| [04:42:34] | iamlindoro: | right, and that undid a bunch of work |
| [04:42:40] | Beirdo: | where? |
| [04:42:49] | iamlindoro: | Such as the conversion of mythgame dialogs from non-MythUI to MythUI that I did weeks ago |
| [04:42:52] | iamlindoro: | and a bunch of theme changes |
| [04:42:57] | iamlindoro: | and mythvideo parental control changes |
| [04:42:59] | iamlindoro: | etc. |
| [04:42:59] | iamlindoro: | etc. |
| [04:43:00] | iamlindoro: | etc. |
| [04:43:18] | iamlindoro: | Just look at your own changeset |
| [04:43:21] | iamlindoro: | https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/0f063f53b |
| [04:44:02] | iamlindoro: | And search, for example, mythgame |
| [04:45:26] | iamlindoro: | I can personally only eyeball a my own changes, but there appear to be tons and tons of changes/reversions that have nothing to do with mythsystem |
| [04:45:44] | iamlindoro: | All of which seems to me from the outside, like a merge gone horribly wrong |
| [04:46:20] | wagnerrp: | things that werent pulled over from master to the mythsystem-rewrite branch during testing? |
| [04:46:26] | Beirdo: | repeatedly |
| [04:46:48] | Beirdo: | I have repeatedly pulled all the changes over from master |
| [04:46:59] | iamlindoro: | and here's a bunch more reversions to theme edits from weeks ago |
| [04:47:05] | iamlindoro: | and image changes |
| [04:47:14] | iamlindoro: | and so on |
| [04:47:20] | wagnerrp: | right, im saying did git miss stuff, meaning it reverted it when you pushed back into master |
| [04:47:40] | iamlindoro: | and here's some translation undos... |
| [04:47:50] | ** iamlindoro will stop listing as soon as someone acknowledges this merge is broken ** | |
| [04:48:54] | Beirdo: | first: find one particular commit from before that I can check, please |
| [04:49:13] | iamlindoro: | Just go look at the history in mythgame |
| [04:49:20] | iamlindoro: | you'll be able to find the commit easily |
| [04:49:30] | Beirdo: | if it has borked something, by all means we'll have to fix it |
| [04:49:47] | iamlindoro: | it has borked things, I'd say that's fairly obvious |
| [04:50:24] | iamlindoro: | This, for example: |
| [04:50:25] | iamlindoro: | https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/124b0 . . . 682d0ea9cad3 |
| [04:50:29] | iamlindoro: | December 14th |
| [04:50:33] | iamlindoro: | reverted in your merge |
| [04:50:35] | iamlindoro: | one of many |
| [04:53:01] | Beirdo: | I'm looking at it. wonder what happened here. Give me a moment |
| [04:59:32] | Beirdo: | still looking :) |
| [04:59:51] | Beirdo: | doesn't help that my laptop chose now as a good time to decide it's outta memory |
| [05:00:54] | elmojo: | I'm sure the fact that your laptop ran out of memory would make Udo smile |
| [05:16:20] | Beirdo: | wow, this got bent somehow. I guess the thing to do is determine which commits seemingly got removed, and put them back in |
| [05:16:53] | iamlindoro: | or revert the merge and fix |
| [05:17:13] | iamlindoro: | since that sounds much safer than relying of someone to pick through and figure out what's jacked up |
| [05:17:17] | iamlindoro: | er relying on |
| [05:18:33] | Beirdo: | reverting a merge is not as simple as it sounds |
| [05:18:48] | xris: | unless it was squarshed |
| [05:18:55] | Beirdo: | man git-revert |
| [05:19:02] | Beirdo: | it's NOT as easy as it sounds |
| [05:19:11] | iamlindoro: | I'm not the one who needs to do it :P |
| [05:19:15] | Beirdo: | http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/do . . . ty-merge.txt |
| [05:19:23] | Beirdo: | or read it right from Linus' email :) |
| [05:19:33] | iamlindoro: | Come on now, seriously-- when you're trying to convince people that git is a fantastic idea, having this kind of thing happen doesn't help your cause |
| [05:20:09] | iamlindoro: | It seems like you might want to take one for the cause and figure out how to revert it rather than having each and every person whose work has now been reverted that you get to pick through and reapply irritated |
| [05:20:12] | iamlindoro: | Just my opinion |
| [05:20:28] | Beirdo: | who said I was going to make someone else fix it? |
| [05:20:41] | iamlindoro: | I didn't imply you had said that |
| [05:20:42] | elmojo: | where is jannau when you need him – you gotta be a genius to use git properly |
| [05:21:01] | iamlindoro: | I do, however, think that relying on someone to go through and unfuck it one commit at a time is prone to error |
| [05:21:26] | iamlindoro: | and that a revert sounds preferable to the high probability of error |
| [05:21:47] | iamlindoro: | oh, by the way, I'm sure the command is git --unfuck git://www.github.com/MythTV |
| [05:23:53] | Beirdo: | OK, I see where the merge failed. |
| [05:24:01] | Beirdo: | now to see WHY |
| [05:24:40] | Beirdo: | b06b21bf8b4 if you were wondering |
| [05:25:38] | Beirdo: | weird |
| [05:25:53] | Beirdo: | I see your commit merged in though |
| [05:26:55] | iamlindoro: | perhaps the merge was run with git merge master . --enable-jannau --enable-beirdo --enable-sphery --enable-stuartm --enable-jannau --enable-wagnerrp --enable-elmojo and not git merge master . --enable-jannau --enable-beirdo --enable-sphery --enable-stuartm --enable-jannau --enable-wagnerrp --enable-elmojo --enable-robertm? |
| [05:33:11] | jya: | this discussion is hilarious :) |
| [05:33:36] | jya: | come one guys, give Beirdo a break.. We've all screwed up with git |
| [05:34:21] | jya: | somehow that our in-house git expert screwed up, makes me feel better about myself :) |
| [05:34:42] | Beirdo: | it says it merged your changes in, but I don't see the changes post-merge. |
| [05:35:04] | iamlindoro: | I'm not upset with him at all, in fact I'm sympathetic-- this only makes git look like more of a huge disaster than it already did |
| [05:35:05] | elmojo: | Beirdo: what version of git? |
| [05:35:28] | Beirdo: | I'm recloning (slooowly) at the moment so I can see if it's just my checkout that went apeshit |
| [05:35:44] | Beirdo: | 1.7.0.4 |
| [05:36:07] | elmojo: | maybe that version is buggy |
| [05:36:07] | wagnerrp: | Beirdo: and its not the whole commit it ignored, only small bits of it |
| [05:36:12] | Beirdo: | but at least I have (AFICT) an idea of preceisely what chunk got missed. |
| [05:36:23] | Beirdo: | just trying to determine how and why |
| [05:36:32] | Beirdo: | and how to fix it |
| [05:37:32] | elmojo: | I'd like to hear paul-h's opinion on the matter |
| [05:38:20] | jya: | iamlindoro: it does feel like you're kicking someone already down.. it wasn't a very nice way to raise it up.. but that's just my perspective of things |
| [05:40:53] | iamlindoro: | More desolation that if one of the people who tirelessly pushed us to git can have this happen, and then have no idea how to fix it, and be unable to revert it, that there's no hope at all for someone like me |
| [05:42:13] | iamlindoro: | But if Beirdo had his feelings hurt by my pointing out that it was broken he has my apologies |
| [05:42:28] | iamlindoro: | I'm sure we'll have it all fixed up by the next RCS |
| [05:42:36] | jya: | so far git has allowed me to do things I wouldn't have ever attempted with svn |
| [05:42:39] | iamlindoro: | I hear BZR is nice |
| [05:42:59] | jya: | I personally love the cherry-pick feature |
| [05:43:21] | jya: | no way svn can do it as smartly as git, like applying a cherry-pick even though I have changed the path of files.. |
| [05:43:26] | jya: | that was quite impressive |
| [05:43:34] | iamlindoro: | me too-- git has allowed me to take the month of December off, I would never have managed that with SVN |
| [05:45:13] | Beirdo: | heck, glad we found it quickly. |
| [05:45:23] | Beirdo: | wish my link didn't wanna be slow today |
| [05:45:40] | jya: | Beirdo: what happened ? |
| [05:46:05] | Beirdo: | I'm trying to reclone, and it's going at 150kB/s |
| [05:46:11] | Beirdo: | on a 7Mbit link |
| [05:54:57] | Beirdo: | OK, clone is done |
| [05:55:48] | Beirdo: | hmmm |
| [05:56:07] | Beirdo: | it LOOKS like it was just my local copy that got messed up |
| [05:56:19] | Beirdo: | and when I merged, it merged it wrong |
| [05:56:26] | Beirdo: | blah. :) Now... how to fix |
| [05:57:55] | danielk22: | Beirdo: git checkout master ; git revert 0f063f53b ; [check that it looks right] ; git push |
| [05:59:26] | danielk22: | I had a two of these mangled merges happen to me until I figured out that the work dir script in git contrib was to blame. |
| [05:59:33] | Beirdo: | no |
| [05:59:37] | danielk22: | (in my case) |
| [05:59:38] | Beirdo: | not going to happen |
| [05:59:44] | Beirdo: | read man git-revert |
| [05:59:58] | Beirdo: | if you revert a merge, it will NEVER merge in the changes again |
| [06:00:09] | Beirdo: | as they already were merged |
| [06:00:28] | Beirdo: | anyways, trying to fix this :) |
| [06:00:52] | iamlindoro: | That doesn't make any sense whatsoever |
| [06:00:54] | Beirdo: | if I need to back out, the better way is to force push without the merge |
| [06:01:07] | Beirdo: | iamlindoro: you have that argument with Linus. |
| [06:01:10] | iamlindoro: | what possible reason would anyone have to have written an RCS like this? |
| [06:01:35] | iamlindoro: | Beirdo, come on, have some sympathy-- git gets worse every single day |
| [06:01:45] | iamlindoro: | And that's not your fault, but this is a nightmare! |
| [06:01:48] | xris: | iamlindoro: kernel uses git differently than most of the rest, though. |
| [06:01:48] | Beirdo: | no it doesn't |
| [06:01:53] | xris: | it's all done with patches applied manually |
| [06:02:01] | iamlindoro: | Then why are we using it? |
| [06:02:07] | elmojo: | which is why Git is a bad idea for a project like ours |
| [06:02:09] | iamlindoro: | no, never mind |
| [06:02:11] | iamlindoro: | don't answer that |
| [06:02:17] | iamlindoro: | I don't want to fight |
| [06:02:19] | iamlindoro: | I just want to go away |
| [06:02:31] | xris: | git has progressed a lot since linus turned it loose for everyone else. |
| [06:02:56] | xris: | iamlindoro: fwiw people fought this hard when we switched to svn. |
| [06:03:17] | danielk22: | xris: even so it does not appear to be ready for real world use yet. |
| [06:03:42] | xris: | there are definitely some issues when people do advanced/wacky stuff with it... |
| [06:03:58] | xris: | or try to use it like svn (which is my usual problem) |
| [06:04:25] | xris: | but yeah.. two big issues in a week doesn't bode well. |
| [06:05:35] | elmojo: | two big issues caused by the experts |
| [06:05:48] | xris: | I'm far from an expert. "comfortable" at best. |
| [06:06:06] | elmojo: | how does anyone expect a simple-minded person like me to understand this stuff |
| [06:06:41] | xris: | someone really needs to make a quick little visual skit to explain how git works |
| [06:06:55] | xris: | once I managed to conceive of everything visually it all got a lot easier. |
| [06:07:38] | elmojo: | maybe a local university offers a class I could take (and probably fail) |
| [06:08:32] | elmojo: | I really do appreciate the effort put into the switch |
| [06:09:08] | danielk22: | xris: do you know how I can see the differences between my repo and the upstream one? i.e. a diff of what will be sent when I do a push? (without needing to know ahead of time which commits are in my repo and not the upstream one.) |
| [06:09:45] | wagnerrp: | danielk22: you can do a '--dry-run' |
| [06:09:47] | danielk22: | xris: I think being able to see that before doing a push would have helped Beirdo |
| [06:10:07] | xris: | yeah. sounds like he didn't follow his own advice. |
| [06:10:17] | iamlindoro: | I *think* that's git diff HEAD? |
| [06:10:25] | xris: | iamlindoro: origin/master |
| [06:10:30] | xris: | HEAD is local |
| [06:10:40] | iamlindoro: | ok |
| [06:10:54] | xris: | danielk22: diff master..origin/master or maybe ... — they mean slightly different things that I forget |
| [06:11:07] | Beirdo: | I think I determined why it happened. |
| [06:11:10] | xris: | I have a macro that I use `git new` that shows some of that, too |
| [06:11:14] | Beirdo: | not sure though :) |
| [06:11:38] | xris: | I've been meaning to get a consolidated git config file together for people to use... just never did other than point at the coworker's github that has most of them |
| [06:11:39] | danielk22: | xris: ok, assume I am in local branch xyz and pushing to branch uvw on git@github.com :MythTV/mythtv.git |
| [06:11:50] | Beirdo: | between two master->mythsystem merges, I committed a fix on one branch, cherry-picked it to the other |
| [06:12:19] | Beirdo: | and it seems the merge ate itself as a result, but I'm not sure. I'm fixing it here anyways, nearly done |
| [06:12:43] | Beirdo: | just have one change that won't commit, but I think that's because it was reverted after |
| [06:12:50] | danielk22: | xris: I do "git push git@github.com :MythTV/mythtv.git uvw --dry-run" to see the diff? |
| [06:13:25] | xris: | danielk22: shouldn't need that whole URL |
| [06:14:04] | xris: | but I'm not really sure. I try to avoid having local branches with different names than upstream. |
| [06:14:12] | xris: | the dry run would give you some info, though |
| [06:14:39] | xris: | danielk22: check out the "new" alias here: https://github.com/codon/dot_files/blob/master/gitconfig |
| [06:18:42] | Beirdo: | this is gonna look weird :) |
| [06:19:53] | Beirdo: | I pulled all of the changes on master between the two merges, and merged them into a branch at the merge point... |
| [06:20:03] | Beirdo: | rebased it to the end of mythsystem-rewrite |
| [06:20:23] | Beirdo: | it's not in master yet |
| [06:21:50] | Beirdo: | now... anything ELSE that got missed... |
| [06:23:12] | Beirdo: | gonna merge these back into master, since my previous merge effectively removed em |
| [06:27:49] | Beirdo: | OK. |
| [06:28:46] | Beirdo: | iamlindoro: and others: I think it is now fixed. Feel free to double-check, and I will be as well. If you notice other commits mysteriously missing, please tell me the sha1 (and commit date if you can), and I'll investigate |
| [06:29:06] | Beirdo: | I still am surprised that it borked an earlier merge like that |
| [06:35:44] | jya: | Beirdo: there's no way you can just do a diff between before your merge, and after and see which file are now different? asking for people to look for something borked is likely to simply miss stuff |
| [06:36:48] | Beirdo: | as I said, I'll be double-checking as well |
| [06:37:37] | Beirdo: | I'll be checking each of the merges I did from master -> mythsystem-rewrite |
| [06:38:19] | Beirdo: | but if any of you guys see stuff missing, please let me know as well |
| [06:39:46] | Beirdo: | I don't know WHY that merge borked on me, but I'm sure it was PEBCAK in the end |
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| [07:18:14] | xris: | jya: yeah, git log with some extra parameters would tell you |
| [07:52:18] | Beirdo: | OK, let this be a lesson to all (especially me) :) |
| [07:52:44] | Beirdo: | before I merged, I shoulda done git diff master (from mythsystem-rewrite) |
| [07:53:09] | Beirdo: | I'm going through the full diff right now to make sure nothing else is missed |
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| [08:08:16] | jya: | Beirdo: problem is even looking at the diff. It's easy to spot if any of your own stuff is missing, but other people's change ... |
| [08:09:11] | jya: | so in the end , the reason was that you had a corrupted local git repo ? how did that happen? |
| [08:10:59] | Beirdo: | I can see that the only changes being made are ones I intend to make |
| [08:11:05] | Beirdo: | that's all that's necessary |
| [08:11:27] | Beirdo: | the reason was a broken merge from master to mythsystem-rewrite earlier |
| [08:11:38] | Beirdo: | and I don't know why, but I have suspicions |
| [08:11:55] | Beirdo: | just gotta be a lot more diligent when merging |
| [08:12:23] | Beirdo: | if I diff what I'm about to merge, I'll know if all the changes are mine or not |
| [08:12:45] | Beirdo: | yes, it could take a while to read through, especially on big branch merges |
| [08:29:05] | Beirdo: | OK, confirmed. The only changes I see in the diff were ones that were supposed to be there |
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| [12:38:51] | stuartm: | xris: where are the apache server logs being kept now? |
| [12:39:16] | stuartm: | well the access logs |
| [12:41:56] | stuartm: | xris: oh and java is kinda killing the server, there are processes using 2GB each |
| [12:43:08] | stuartm: | which I've just killed, apologies if that causes problems for anyone |
| [12:44:23] | stuartm: | load has now dropped from 3.50 to 0.74 and we're no longer swapping |
| [13:40:55] | jya: | we discussed a little while ago on how you can clone a git repo multiple-times, but they all use the same .git ? so I can checkout for example two branches and work side by side without doing a full clone |
| [13:42:08] | jya: | can't find references on how to do that I see the --shared and --references option |
| [13:42:17] | jya: | but not sure if this is it |
| [13:42:50] | stuartm: | jya: git-new-workdir |
| [13:43:18] | jya: | sorry what's that? |
| [13:43:35] | danielk22: | I highly recommend staying far far away from git-new-workdir. |
| [13:43:47] | stuartm: | script in the git contrib directory which allows multiple working directories but just one repo |
| [13:44:33] | danielk22: | If you do a pull in one workdir and then commit in another it will create a merge commit which undoes all the changes between the last two pulls of the repo. |
| [13:44:46] | jya: | ultimately, all I want to do is two branch side by side, so I can run diff/merge on them |
| [13:45:00] | danielk22: | And hide your changes in the messy merge. |
| [13:45:22] | jya: | danielk22: so you're saying I should just clone twice ? |
| [13:45:29] | jya: | sounds highly inefficient |
| [13:46:13] | danielk22: | jya: Yes.. It may be possible to just "cp -R" the first clone, but I've haven't found any confirmation that it is safe to do so. |
| [13:46:29] | stuartm: | danielk22: I guess it depends how you are going to use it, personally I'm just allowing my working and build directories to share a single repo – so I can selectively build changes from my 'work' tree without needing to revert or complete other in-progress changes |
| [13:47:01] | jya: | i have no intention of ever committing stuff in that 2nd checkout, just so I can run merge and see what changes was made for a particular case |
| [13:47:21] | stuartm: | I always pull in my 'work' directory and will never commit from my 'build' directory |
| [13:47:25] | jya: | stuartm: this git-new-workdir , is that in the git web site, or in mythtv ? |
| [13:47:48] | stuartm: | jya: should be intalled on your system, just needs to be moved to a bin dir |
| [13:48:02] | stuartm: | locate git-new-workdir |
| [13:48:29] | jya: | command-space :) |
| [13:49:02] | jya: | it is there .. |
| [13:49:03] | jya: | cool |
| [13:50:42] | jya: | and fast too.. |
| [13:51:09] | jya: | 1.05s .. damn SSDs are cool |
| [14:38:12] | kenni: | Beirdo, (stuartm): Yep, the Windows system is ready and has been idle for a couple of weeks. I just need some instructions on what to set up to turn it into a build slave. |
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| [15:33:41] | danielk22: | heh. http://amplicate.com/hate/git http://amplicate.com/love/git |
| [16:15:21] | iamlindoro: | Those percentages roughly hold true within the project, too, it seems |
| [16:16:04] | stuartm: | and probably within the user and contributor base too |
| [16:19:05] | okolsi: | I agree, just pulling stuff to local tree with changes seems bit complicated :) |
| [16:20:10] | okolsi: | (asking help on 'the other channel' :D ) |
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| [16:24:05] | stuartm: | Chutt: come back, all is forgiven! ;) |
| [16:24:59] | stuartm: | Chutt: but seriously, you predicted this outcome from day one |
| [16:26:48] | Captain_Murdoch: | danielk22, I guess the top poster on the love it link has never used it on anything but a local drive or SSD. |
| [16:30:35] | GreyFoxx: | 2011-01–02 12:30:09.192 FileRingBuf(myth://[fd14:6bf7:21fb::24]:6543/10009_20110101122800.mpg): OpenFile(myth://[fd14:6bf7:21fb::24]:6543/10009_2011 |
| [16:30:36] | GreyFoxx: | 0101122800.mpg, 2000 ms) |
| [16:30:39] | GreyFoxx: | Woop :) |
| [16:31:06] | stuartm: | it's probably isn't clear but in our criticisms of git we're trying not to upset or offend Beirdo and xris, as a result I'm not sure we've really managed to convey just how much we dislike git |
| [16:31:52] | GreyFoxx: | IPv6 mythtv is almost a reality (for those who would care about such things) :) |
| [16:31:53] | stuartm: | it's the proverbial Christmas jumper from Grandma |
| [16:32:08] | stuartm: | GreyFoxx: you've just made stuarta a very happy man |
| [16:32:18] | iamlindoro: | Agree-- I completely appreciate the effort that went into all of these changes and I would be equally protective had I done that much work-- it's nobody in this project's fault that the tool itself has turned out to be a disaster |
| [16:32:32] | GreyFoxx: | Mythweb works with it, master/slave backend communication works, playback/sg playback works |
| [16:33:11] | GreyFoxx: | there are a few glitches with the upnp autodiscovery bits which I've overrriden for the moment with hardcoded values |
| [16:33:16] | GreyFoxx: | but overall it's working :) |
| [16:34:00] | stuartm: | apart from the increased IPv6 address space, I'm largely clueless about the benefits of IPv6 |
| [16:34:03] | iamlindoro: | GreyFoxx, Cool |
| [16:34:04] | GreyFoxx: | I haven't spent much time looking at plugins yet but those should be quite simple |
| [16:34:07] | stuartm: | stuarta is a big fan though |
| [16:34:51] | GreyFoxx: | I've switched most of my home network to IPv6. Mostly as a learning experience and because I know that in about 9 months my work will be pushing for it as we want to start providing it to customers. So this is really personal research :) |
| [16:35:20] | stuartm: | no-one has said anything about IPv6 adding security by default, or ridding the world of spam, so I'm guessing the benefits are rather more minor |
| [16:36:05] | GreyFoxx: | personally for me it's more about more IP space |
| [16:36:28] | GreyFoxx: | any other benefits do not currently concern me, nor seem "obvious" as something I'd want |
| [16:36:41] | GreyFoxx: | My eyes still hurt looking at the IPs hehe |
| [16:37:01] | iamlindoro: | personally IPv6 seems like the git of addressing to me ;) |
| [16:37:06] | GreyFoxx: | heheh |
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| [16:39:16] | GreyFoxx: | iaml: It will be very painful |
| [16:39:43] | GreyFoxx: | especially when working software is revealed to not work, (or at least not without some reconfiguration) with IPv6 |
| [16:40:15] | GreyFoxx: | That's why I'm experimenting with it now, to find out what some of those are :) |
| [16:43:19] | Chutt: | heh |
| [16:45:26] | stuartm: | ahh, already I'm getting the "well you never wanted git in the first place, so of course you'll say you didn't like it" argument |
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| [16:47:46] | Chutt: | stuartm, this is worse than i thought :p |
| [16:47:52] | Captain_Murdoch: | stuartm, well, I put in my 2 cents (2% of a pound or euro) :) and I wasn't in the 'anti-git' side originally. |
| [16:47:56] | Chutt: | it would be, that is |
| [16:48:52] | Chutt: | what trouble did we have with cvs -> svn? |
| [16:48:53] | Captain_Murdoch: | I don't want to see the day when we all have to start hand-fixing our local branches because we have to re-clone master because somone less experienced merges in who knows what into our master. |
| [16:49:09] | Captain_Murdoch: | Chutt, nothing major that I recall. just the 'newness' of it I think. |
| [16:49:11] | Chutt: | given that it was completely compatible |
| [16:49:14] | stuartm: | Captain_Murdoch: I was never 'anti' git, I just asked that the pros and cons were weighed carefully before switching, which I thought was perfectly reasonable |
| [16:49:17] | Chutt: | supported all the same commands, etc |
| [16:49:33] | Captain_Murdoch: | stuartm, I agree. |
| [16:49:37] | wagnerrp: | GreyFoxx: is that how youre supposed to access specific ports with IPv6? with the address bracketed like that? |
| [16:49:52] | stuartm: | I don't remember any problems at all with the cvs > svn switch, certainly nothing which compares to this situation |
| [16:50:11] | Chutt: | the problems that i remember mostly had to do with trac |
| [16:50:18] | Chutt: | and getting people to want to use it |
| [16:50:34] | Captain_Murdoch: | I propose we switch to assembler, in case anyone didn't read between the lines of my reply. |
| [16:50:47] | Chutt: | anyway |
| [16:51:05] | iamlindoro: | Captain_Murdoch, Linus asys we should just use 0's and 1's... so much more powerful and flexible |
| [16:51:36] | Chutt: | at work, everything goes through gerrit – we've never had these sorts of problems |
| [16:52:21] | Chutt: | but that means every commit is peer-reviewed, not everyone can actually "submit" to the repo |
| [16:52:37] | Chutt: | "these sorts" = massive merge issues |
| [16:52:57] | GreyFoxx: | wag: Yes. It's the proper way the host in the URL so that parsing can still get the port out |
| [16:53:31] | wagnerrp: | funky |
| [16:53:32] | GreyFoxx: | In fact in many places I just patched the myth:// URL generation to bracket the host with [] and then QUrl was happily able to parse IPv6 urls |
| [16:53:41] | Chutt: | it's a much slower workflow, and one that i'd think wouldn't work for an oss project, really |
| [16:54:05] | stuartm: | I don't plan to say anything more on the subject, I don't want to be the guy shouting "I told you so" or be seen as the instigator of this 'anti-git' sentiment, If everyone else had been happy with git I'd have bitten my tongue and kept quiet already |
| [16:55:12] | stuartm: | if those people who spoke to me in private don't want to go on record then so be it |
| [17:01:27] | stuartm: | Captain_Murdoch's contacts must be better than mine |
| [17:01:47] | GreyFoxx: | heh |
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| [17:08:02] | GreyFoxx: | Nice, I just copied the contents of my mythrecordings drive to another identical drive with the only difference being the original was XFS and the new one is ext 4...... the ext4 one is showing 31GB less space available :) |
| [17:08:35] | GreyFoxx: | I call shenanigans |
| [17:09:59] | wagnerrp: | thats to be expected |
| [17:10:36] | wagnerrp: | the file system is reserving a certain amount of space for anti-fragmentation purposes |
| [17:10:43] | wagnerrp: | only root is allowed to exceed that |
| [17:10:45] | GreyFoxx: | considering the content is only 305GB of data, that's a pretty huge space loss |
| [17:10:47] | GreyFoxx: | ahhh right |
| [17:10:51] | GreyFoxx: | I had forgotten about that |
| [17:11:11] | GreyFoxx: | back when I use to use ext2 I use to specifically set that much lower when I formatted the drive |
| [17:11:33] | GreyFoxx: | didn't even occur to me since it's been many years since I regularly used that :) |
| [17:11:38] | GreyFoxx: | thanks! |
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| [17:14:58] | stuartm: | paul-h: fyi I'm am working on that buttontree issue, I've just haven't had the time I thought I would |
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| [17:18:22] | stuartm: | on that note, if I promised anyone else that I'd work on something, then sorry but I've apparently forgotten about it |
| [17:35:17] | stuartm: | paul-h: can you give this patch a spin? I've only done limited testing – http://mythtv.pastebin.ca/2036958 |
| [17:36:18] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: since mythvideo, mythgame and mnv are the current users of the button tree you might want to check that the above doesn't break them |
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| [18:14:30] | paul-h: | stuartm: the good new is the flicker has gone :) the bad news the left most list doesn't get updated if you first scroll right far enough so the left most list changes and then scroll back again |
| [18:15:58] | paul-h: | strangely it works in MythVideo but not in MythNetVision |
| [18:16:29] | stuartm: | paul-h: ok, I'll keep working on it |
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| [18:18:00] | paul-h: | stuartm: funny thing is I tried to fix it before bothering you with it and run into exactly the same problem :) |
| [18:18:43] | stuartm: | I know what the problem is, I just need to think of a fix :) |
| [18:21:03] | iamlindoro: | wagnerrp, Beirdo: Trunk will not build on Ubuntu 10.04: http://mythtv.pastebin.ca/2036999 |
| [18:21:36] | iamlindoro: | gcc 4.4.3 |
| [18:23:29] | iamlindoro: | Compiles with this: http://mythtv.pastebin.ca/2037003 |
| [18:25:22] | wagnerrp: | im looking at that, wondering how any compiler would let it pass |
| [18:25:28] | iamlindoro: | stuartm, Attempting to get built to test the patch otherwise, just running into the above |
| [18:26:06] | stuartm: | wagnerrp, iamlindoro: uh, yeah, that shouldn't build on any system |
| [18:26:18] | iamlindoro: | yeah |
| [18:26:44] | stuartm: | and yet it does on mine, which is also gcc 4.4.3 |
| [18:27:04] | iamlindoro: | ccache magic? |
| [18:27:13] | iamlindoro: | (it built on one of my FEs, also) |
| [18:27:29] | wagnerrp: | i dont use ccache |
| [18:27:38] | iamlindoro: | I just work here |
| [18:27:41] | wagnerrp: | here is the commit in which it was added... https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/0e603 . . . 3c552d2511d0 |
| [18:27:50] | wagnerrp: | which shows it being used properly |
| [18:28:21] | wagnerrp: | i wonder if were going to find weird things all over the place from that merge |
| [18:28:21] | iamlindoro: | more merge casualties? |
| [18:28:31] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: heh, well you should think about using it, will ultimately save days of your life spent waiting for a compile to complete |
| [18:29:11] | wagnerrp: | im not really compiling frequently enough for it to /really/ bother me |
| [18:30:29] | wagnerrp: | hold on... |
| [18:30:48] | wagnerrp: | it was altered properly on Dec 03 |
| [18:31:02] | wagnerrp: | and then it was altered a second time to be broken Nov 21? |
| [18:31:11] | wagnerrp: | thats a horribly borked timeline there |
| [18:31:23] | iamlindoro: | Anyway, here's a more complete patch that cleans up afterwards: http://mythtv.pastebin.ca/2037011 |
| [18:31:26] | iamlindoro: | do with it what you will |
| [18:31:40] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: it was broken in https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/86522 . . . 361129d54a93 |
| [18:31:52] | stuartm: | oh, you've already seen that |
| [18:31:58] | ** stuartm was slow ** | |
| [18:32:05] | wagnerrp: | stuartm: yeah, which is almost two weeks before it was initially committed |
| [18:32:19] | wagnerrp: | how do you break something before youve even written it |
| [18:32:22] | ** iamlindoro cries a little ** | |
| [18:32:25] | stuartm: | git merge magic to the rescue |
| [18:32:28] | iamlindoro: | s/a little// |
| [18:33:41] | iamlindoro: | wagnerrp, Do you want me to just commit the fix? |
| [18:34:29] | wagnerrp: | go ahead if you want, i was going to wait for beirdo to wake up (should be any time now) and see what he thought |
| [18:34:36] | wagnerrp: | clearly something bad happened |
| [18:34:51] | iamlindoro: | I'll commit, it's certainly not going to be less right |
| [18:37:29] | ** iamlindoro mumbles about how these mythsystems everywhere ought to be null checked ** | |
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| [18:38:42] | iamlindoro: | wagnerrp, Is there a reason every single spawned command needs to get logged? This is going to make things like mythvideo metadata grabbing logs a pain to read |
| [18:39:43] | wagnerrp: | not in particular, go ahead and drop the verbosity to something non-default if you want |
| [18:40:12] | iamlindoro: | Can't worry about that right now, the backend won't start |
| [18:40:28] | iamlindoro: | It gets to the point where it spawns the DB backup command, appears to succeed, and hangs |
| [18:40:43] | iamlindoro: | It gets to the point where it spawns the DB backup command, appears to succeed, and hangs |
| [18:40:48] | iamlindoro: | whoops |
| [18:40:57] | wagnerrp: | yeah, dont know what causes that one |
| [18:41:10] | iamlindoro: | erm, is there a fix? |
| [18:41:15] | wagnerrp: | happened to me with 1265 and again with 1266, beirdo was unable to reproduce |
| [18:41:26] | wagnerrp: | after the merge into master, im now unable to reproduce |
| [18:41:33] | iamlindoro: | I am able |
| [18:41:53] | iamlindoro: | it acts like its gotten through it, and does |
| [18:41:53] | iamlindoro: | 2011-01–02 10:40:59.107 Managed child (PID: 17447) has started! * command=mysql -h 192.168.0.99 -u mythtv -ps60IOd3B -e "SHOW PROCESSLIST", timeout=4 |
| [18:41:54] | iamlindoro: | 2011-01–02 10:40:59.163 Managed child (PID: 17447) has exited! command=mysql -h 192.168.0.99 -u mythtv -ps60IOd3B -e "SHOW PROCESSLIST", status=0, result=0 |
| [18:41:54] | iamlindoro: | and hangs |
| [18:41:56] | wagnerrp: | the only thing i can think of is its some race condition dealing with the 'finished' signalling |
| [18:41:59] | iamlindoro: | can't get past it |
| [18:42:15] | iamlindoro: | Doesn't even appear to have done the DB upgrade, since a restart of the backend just locks it hard again |
| [18:42:22] | wagnerrp: | its not properly sending the signal, so whatever depends on it doesnt know its finished |
| [18:42:26] | iamlindoro: | ok, so what's the plan to fix it? |
| [18:42:40] | iamlindoro: | What do you need? |
| [18:43:00] | wagnerrp: | yeah, its before the upgrade, the upgrade code is waiting on confirmation that nothing else is using the database |
| [18:43:12] | iamlindoro: | btw, I don't care that I just pasted my mysql password, but that's another funny downside of default logging |
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| [18:44:04] | iamlindoro: | well, I'm stuck, reproduceable 100% of the time... what logs or traces do you need? |
| [18:44:10] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: it's something that needs to be fixed, we should be obscurring that info in log output |
| [18:44:15] | stuartm: | sphery: ^^ |
| [18:44:23] | iamlindoro: | not sphery's deal |
| [18:44:25] | iamlindoro: | it's mythsystem |
| [18:44:31] | iamlindoro: | they're logging every spawned process |
| [18:50:25] | iamlindoro: | wagnerrp, I'm just going to do the DB update manually, I need a working system. Last call to get logs |
| [18:50:49] | wagnerrp: | nope, i dont know enough about using gdb to even know what to look for |
| [18:53:07] | iamlindoro: | K, can always revert later to reproduce |
| [18:53:54] | wagnerrp: | did you do a clean clone? |
| [18:54:16] | iamlindoro: | no, I did a git pull, why would it matter? |
| [18:54:48] | wagnerrp: | because my master doesnt have the mediamonitor-unix doesnt have that issue |
| [18:56:00] | iamlindoro: | It exists on both of my systems |
| [18:56:09] | iamlindoro: | I hadn't updated the other yet, it has the bug I fixed too |
| [18:57:14] | iamlindoro: | And git accepted the changeset, though I expect linus has a long text file to explain why I'm stupid for assuming that meant anything |
| [18:58:10] | wagnerrp: | well i havent manually applied anything, just the 'git pull' |
| [18:58:17] | wagnerrp: | certainly some bad juju going on |
| [18:58:53] | iamlindoro: | wagnerrp, I committed the fix |
| [18:58:56] | iamlindoro: | a while ago |
| [18:59:01] | iamlindoro: | so a git pull will fix it |
| [18:59:14] | wagnerrp: | oh, right... |
| [19:01:15] | wagnerrp: | and the repo i built off of last night doesnt seem to have pulled the merge... which would explain why i had no problem building it |
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| [19:01:46] | wagnerrp: | but still, my gentoo boxes didnt complain |
| [19:01:58] | wagnerrp: | and they build specifically off a changeset defined in their ebuild |
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| [19:10:08] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: that same broken code appears in my tree as well |
| [19:10:25] | stuartm: | but I'm sure it's entirely unrelated to git |
| [19:12:11] | wagnerrp: | stuartm: no, seems i built from a revision previous to where i thought i was |
| [19:14:13] | wagnerrp: | iamlindoro: there is a kMSAnonLog that strips all arguments from the call, replacing them with " (anonymized)" when it gets outputted to the logs |
| [19:14:33] | wagnerrp: | but that was after i had converted that chunk of code, and seems it was never updated to use it |
| [19:26:04] | sphery: | Not much help, now, but I /plan/ to move that mysql-command-line-app usage call to just use MSqlQuery (unless in doing so I find the problems Nigel seems to have had when he wrote it). I don't think I'll get to it until next week, though, since I have visitors. |
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| [20:15:24] | okolsi: | I'm also seeing problems while launching commands using EXEC in menus (mythsystem?) |
| [20:16:31] | okolsi: | new process starts, but it's not launched as a background process anymore, even though there's the & in the menu xml |
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| [20:46:25] | wagnerrp: | okolsi: what is it not doing that you expect it to? |
| [20:48:44] | wagnerrp: | any command ending in ampersand should be marked as a background task |
| [20:49:04] | wagnerrp: | meaning execution should return to the thread immediately have the task has started |
| [20:49:16] | wagnerrp: | which in this case, would return control back to the UI |
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| [20:51:27] | okolsi: | wagnerrp: exactly that it is not doing now.. |
| [20:51:54] | okolsi: | the UI is blocked, the process is not launched to background, you cannot access frontend once the process has been launched |
| [20:51:59] | wagnerrp: | but it is just not returning to the UI until that taks has closed? |
| [20:52:42] | okolsi: | looks that it is not returning even when the task has been closed |
| [20:53:15] | okolsi: | don't have more time right now, I can later provide logs or other info if needed |
| [20:55:05] | wagnerrp: | nah, ill take a look at it |
| [20:58:36] | okolsi: | logs show status=0, result=0 for processes. when the launched process is closed, after some seconds, frontend crashes. I get core each time, I'll get bt if needed.. now gotta go |
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| [21:11:29] | tolj: | what version of fedora is mythdora 12.23 built against? |
| [21:13:34] | wagnerrp: | this is the mythtv development channel, we dont maintain third party distributions |
| [21:40:03] | stuartm: | j-rod|afk: any idea if there is a mythdora or mythtv on fedora IRC channel? |
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| [21:57:25] | iamlindoro: | There used to be a #mythdora |
| [21:57:33] | iamlindoro: | but I haven't checked into it in years |
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| [22:04:07] | stuartm: | it's not there now, I'm just wondering if there is a specific channel we can direct mythdora questions to or whether they'll have to go to -users |
| [22:04:55] | stuartm: | I jams would be the other person to ask |
| [22:05:03] | stuartm: | I guess |
| [22:06:59] | jams: | well i'm not really a mythdora person, but at one point there was a #mythdora channel run by andycap. It was always empty. |
| [22:07:24] | jams: | it never really took off for some reason or other |
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| [22:33:40] | Beirdo^2: | iamlindoro: thanks for fixing the udev call |
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| [22:44:11] | Beirdo^2: | Not sure why you'd be missing libudev or whatever on 10.04 though |
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| [22:51:40] | stuartm: | xris: promised I wouldn't say any more on the subject, but you reply to Captain_Murdoch than the same number of commands are required in git then go on to demonstrate that in fact that more commands _are_ needed plus you ignore the need to 'push' changes entirely |
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| [22:54:21] | stuartm: | there are a number of differences in git that make it a PITA, e.g. you can't pull if you have local changes, even if the incoming changes do not touch the same file |
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| [22:55:13] | stuartm: | or take the issue wagnerrp experienced where an older commit wiped out his later commit on a merge |
| [22:55:45] | stuartm: | and sure, these problems are technically possible with SVN, but in all the time we've been using SVN have they actually happened? |
| [22:56:50] | Beirdo^2: | Not that that matters. We have been using git for all of a month. |
| [22:56:53] | stuartm: | in fact I dispute that the same would happen with SVN, it seems you have to be trying to break things with SVN, whereas it seems remarkably easy with git |
| [22:57:14] | Beirdo^2: | We agreed to try it for a release cycle iirc |
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| [22:58:11] | stuartm: | Beirdo^2: which is the point no? In one month we've had multiple screw ups, in years of SVN I cannot remember anything similar (which doesn't mean I'm right ...) |
| [22:59:11] | Beirdo^2: | And to be honest several of you guys have been trying to find fault since day one instead of trying to use it effectively. |
| [22:59:22] | stuartm: | Beirdo^2: I think whenever that was agreed that people imagined we'd trial it in parallel with SVN for a cycle before switching the main repo, not afterwards, but nevermind |
| [22:59:51] | Beirdo^2: | I made one screwup which I fixed in a very short time |
| [23:00:29] | stuartm: | FFS, quite the opposite actually, I've been trying to find positives and sure I've found some, but at the end of it all git still remains more work than svn |
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| [23:01:20] | Beirdo^2: | I screwed up a merge weeks ago. However I also asked for others to test on the branch. Nobody but wagnerrp did that I know of. |
| [23:01:35] | stuartm: | I give up, I really do, there's no willingness to listen |
| [23:02:00] | Beirdo^2: | Bullshit |
| [23:02:17] | Beirdo^2: | I've been listening via emails all day |
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| [23:04:59] | Beirdo^2: | If you honestly think that nobody's listening to you sorry. Listening isn't the same as agreeing |
| [23:07:35] | stuartm: | when I get responses like "you guys have been trying to find fault since day one instead of trying to use it" of course I assume you're not reading what I and others have written |
| [23:08:00] | stuartm: | that just disregards the reality of everything that has been said and done in the last month |
| [23:09:34] | stuartm: | we 'disgree' so we must just have our heads up our arses or be willing it to fail, nevermind answering our listed concerns |
| [23:10:28] | Beirdo^2: | If you say so. I don't see it that way. Several of you guys were complaining before the cutover was even complete |
| [23:10:58] | Beirdo^2: | One concern I've seen is the lack of trac integration |
| [23:11:00] | stuartm: | I _really_ did not want to fall out with anyone over this, I was willing to live with it for the sake of peace and I wasn't the one who started that thread on the list |
| [23:11:27] | Beirdo^2: | I know |
| [23:12:28] | Beirdo^2: | The trac integration is outside of my being able to fix it. I've said it several times |
| [23:13:19] | Beirdo^2: | I've asked those with python experience to help out with that but it is holiday time |
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| [23:14:13] | stuartm: | the early 'complaining' started out half-jokingly albeit the concerns raised in those first few days were as valid now as they were then, git requires more work than svn, not much more work but for simple commits and simple ways of working it's still overblown |
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| [23:15:46] | stuartm: | if that was all there was to it, then the 'complaints' would have dropped away once everyone made the switch and adjusted, it's what has happened and been learnt since that increased the ire |
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| [23:17:04] | Beirdo^2: | Such as. If you merge wrong, it does what you way? |
| [23:17:48] | xris: | stuartm: I forgot push.. what other commands are needed? |
| [23:18:09] | xris: | git pull is actually 2 commands. you can't merge in svn if you have local changes on files, can you? |
| [23:18:15] | Beirdo^2: | I'm not sure precisely what I screwed up but I know it was human error |
| [23:18:20] | stuartm: | xris: you can |
| [23:18:46] | xris: | the main difference here is that svn acts on files while git acts on the whole tree |
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| [23:18:51] | stuartm: | svn will always attempt to merge in remote changes with local ones |
| [23:19:12] | xris: | oh, because svn merge isn't a commit operation.. |
| [23:19:16] | xris: | and in git it is |
| [23:19:35] | xris: | but the number of commands is still just one more for git |
| [23:19:49] | stuartm: | git won't even allow 'pull' to be used if you have local changes, which means to update your local copy you always need to have an empty tree |
| [23:20:28] | xris: | stuartm: that's because pull is two commands. you can fetch all you want. but pull also calls git-merge, and because git-merge is a commit-causing act, it won't do that if you have pending changes to commit |
| [23:20:44] | xris: | if you have already committed your changes, git-pull will work just fine (barring conflicts) |
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| [23:21:02] | Beirdo^2: | And from some of the questions asked over the last month I really wonder how many of us read any man pages at all. |
| [23:21:29] | stuartm: | xris: well the need to pull before pushing (rebasing if you want to avoid 'merge' commits or a confused timeline), the need to revert local (uncommitted) changes before pulling means either a 'stash' or 'reset' – sure in principal it's just one extra command for git, but in a real world scenario it can be rather more |
| [23:22:00] | xris: | right. because git is a tree, and svn is a slice of time across individual files |
| [23:22:44] | xris: | think of git as a btree, with the sha being a pointer to the "physical" location. that location is a pointer to the state of everything around it |
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| [23:22:56] | iamlindoro: | This isn't even about the demonstrably greater number of commands required in git-- it's the fact that git has all sort of limitations that, when we point out it was possible for us before, *we're* called the ignorant ones |
| [23:22:58] | stuartm: | xris: we appreciate why git works differently, that's not really at issue here, it's more the 'why do we need this added complexity'? |
| [23:23:02] | xris: | you can't push changes to a single file because git doesn't think about files, it thinks about the repo |
| [23:23:18] | iamlindoro: | Such as last night, when Beirdo said that you if you revert a change in git, those changes can never be applied/merged again |
| [23:23:19] | xris: | iamlindoro: not sure what you mean |
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| [23:23:42] | iamlindoro: | last night's conversation, I'd be happy to quote for those who weren't present |
| [23:23:44] | xris: | dunno where he got that one |
| [23:23:58] | xris: | (my second-previous reply was meant before your comment re reverting) |
| [23:24:01] | iamlindoro: | <Beirdo> read man git-revert |
| [23:24:01] | iamlindoro: | <Beirdo> if you revert a merge, it will NEVER merge in the changes again |
| [23:24:13] | iamlindoro: | <iamlindoro> That doesn't make any sense whatsoever |
| [23:24:17] | iamlindoro: | <Beirdo> iamlindoro: you have that argument with Linus. |
| [23:24:36] | iamlindoro: | So *I'm* the one who doesn't get it for suggesting that we do something any RCS should be capable of |
| [23:24:43] | xris: | I've re-reverted stuff in git numerous times, though. but I don't use git-revert.. I just apply patches backwardsly |
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| [23:26:14] | xris: | but *do* read the manpage. git-revert isn't for reverting stuff like we usually do. it's for reverting a chance so that the change can then be re-worked (i.e. creates a new sha) and then re-applied. |
| [23:26:19] | xris: | s/chance/change/ |
| [23:26:49] | Beirdo^2: | That was specifically about reverting a merge |
| [23:27:02] | Beirdo^2: | Read the man page |
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| [23:27:43] | xris: | if you revert the merge, then make changes to the merged branch and re-merge it will be a different sha, and should apply (assuming I understand things correctly) |
| [23:28:51] | Beirdo^2: | You don't. The changes before the first merge are considered already merged even with the revert |
| [23:28:52] | xris: | and stuartm git kicked in a split.... |
| [23:29:11] | xris: | Beirdo^2: then that *is* stupid |
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| [23:29:44] | iamlindoro: | Beirdo: I *did* read the manpage-- and with no disrespect intended to you, it only makes git deficiency in that regard more glaring. I fully expect that we are now stuck with git, since everyone knows that if you just argue long enough, the majority will shut up out of frustration-- and that's what I'm seeing so far from the side who prefers to stay with git |
| [23:29:48] | stuartm: | if it helps at all, let me put it in a way that even Beirdo^2 can't argue with – SVN is idiotproof and I'm an idiot ;) |
| [23:30:16] | xris: | stuartm: re complexity.. can't say. I appreciate the phase between commit and push as an added check for myself. I've grown to appreciate the complexity, as much as I thought I'd hate it (from my experiences years ago with svk) |
| [23:30:26] | Beirdo^2: | Then take it up with the author. Its well documented |
| [23:30:41] | iamlindoro: | Beirdo^2, your last comment is exactly what I'm talking about |
| [23:31:02] | iamlindoro: | In absence of a cogent argument in favor of git, we're referred to manpages and failing that, the author |
| [23:31:13] | iamlindoro: | It doesn't make a compelling basis for sticking with it |
| [23:31:50] | xris: | iamlindoro: reread my email... I'd rather go back to svn than cause a split among devs.. just want people to REALLY think about why they dislike git — is git the wrong tool, or do you just dislike it because change is scary? |
| [23:32:30] | stuartm: | we're not blaming anyone here for the fact that we don't like git, the problems are git are not your fault |
| [23:32:39] | iamlindoro: | xris, I daresay I've committed more than most in the last month-- I've got a greater-than-the-average amount of experience with it amongst the new git users in our group |
| [23:32:46] | xris: | iamlindoro: "...author"... I believe is his reply out of frustration. re man pages — how else are you supposed to learn about a tool other than read the documentation?> |
| [23:33:04] | xris: | very few actually *used* git during the trial phase.. the problems only came out when we made the migration. |
| [23:33:10] | Beirdo^2: | Well whatever. You wanted an argument while I was trying to fix my mistake. |
| [23:33:18] | iamlindoro: | xris, the man page doesn't make gits deficiencies any more sensible |
| [23:33:47] | iamlindoro: | xris, And when I try to explain that, apparently I have to appeal to a higher authority-- Linus himself |
| [23:33:47] | xris: | what deficiencies? I still haven't heard anything from you.. other than stuff like "revert doesn't do what *I* mean when I say revert, so git is broken" |
| [23:34:28] | xris: | I wonder if svn merge tracking would have the same issues with revert. has anyone checked? |
| [23:34:38] | iamlindoro: | xris, I'm sorry, we might have been on the wrong side of the split, I tried to be clear that a reversion being forevermore un-reppliable is broken |
| [23:35:20] | iamlindoro: | If you can't back out a mistake, fix a small part of it, and then reapply the merge, yeah, that's a deficiency to me |
| [23:35:39] | stuartm: | xris: in fairness I didn't try git during the 'trial' phase, I was too busy and before I knew it you and Beirdo^2 were talking about making the switch that coming weekend |
| [23:35:40] | xris: | iamlindoro: it's not, though. just needs to go through more work to get it back in. because git-revert was designed specifically to prevent people from applying the same brokenness twice, rather than fixing it. |
| [23:36:16] | iamlindoro: | And yes, all the small annoyances such as having to stash your changes to update, and the "merge with master" commits, etc.... they all add up to greater than the sum of their minor individual nature, into something that just feels unusable |
| [23:36:48] | Beirdo^2: | And you were telling me to do something the documentation says not to do lightly |
| [23:36:48] | Beirdo^2: | And really. Reverting just to merge again in an hour is silly |
| [23:36:48] | Beirdo^2: | Better to just move forward and fix what's borked |
| [23:36:49] | xris: | the sha won't apply twice because git tracks it (which is why I wonder if svn merge tracking would have the same problem).. but if you change the sha (e.g. squash all merges, or whatever) it will reapply just fine |
| [23:37:26] | iamlindoro: | Anyway, it's not worth having a strident, extended argument about it. If we're voting, I'm for going back to SVN. That's all I need to say, I'm very appreciative of the work that went into the switchover, I just don't think it worked out, and that's no one individual's fault |
| [23:37:54] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: I'd not say 'unusable', but I would call it a regression compared to SVN, if MythTV got harder to use then we'd all understand why users were complaining but instead we're hearing 'shut up, you're using it wrong' |
| [23:37:56] | Beirdo^2: | If I couldn't fix it I was ready to revert |
| [23:38:00] | xris: | iamlindoro: fwiw I'm trying not to take a pro/anti git side here... I like git, have grown to appreciate the different workflow.. but if people want to move back to svn I'm not going to fight it |
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| [23:39:59] | stuartm: | xris: there is much I like in git, but is it enough to offset the frustrations it causes me? I don't think it is ... and more importantly the reaction from users and contributors has me genuinely concerned, the barrier to contributors should be set as low as possible |
| [23:40:43] | Beirdo^2: | I expect to see a solid reason for doing so before the agreed upon end of this trial |
| [23:40:51] | xris: | stuartm: I agree. I honestly wish more people had had the time to check it out before we made the decision to migrate. |
| [23:41:03] | Beirdo^2: | Which was the end of that release cycle not one month |
| [23:41:03] | Beirdo^2: | Two human errors are the core of what I've heard so far |
| [23:41:10] | stuartm: | if there was some way that git and svn could be used side-by-side then it would be a no-brainer, I've no interest in dictating what tools others choose to use |
| [23:41:16] | xris: | Beirdo^2: "lots of devs hate it, and most of the rest don't care one way or the other" is a pretty good reason. |
| [23:42:07] | xris: | stuartm: they can be but it makes the system REALLY unstable. |
| [23:42:40] | xris: | Beirdo^2: two human errors, one of which probably would have happened with svn.. the other.. was just me being stupid |
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| [23:43:51] | Beirdo^2: | L.q |
| [23:43:55] | Beirdo^2: | Huh |
| [23:44:29] | Beirdo^2: | Lots would not be the word I'd use |
| [23:44:54] | stuartm: | and whether it really works I cannot say, but some of what I like about git is supposed to be in the upcoming Subversion release e.g. local branches |
| [23:44:57] | Beirdo^2: | A few vocal deb's sure |
| [23:45:03] | xris: | that's the reason why I want people to take a step back and think for a bit... not because I prefer git but because people are letting their emotions cloud up the logical side of their argument (and I *do* think there is a valid side to the back-to-svn argument) |
| [23:45:14] | Beirdo^2: | But you can say that about svn too |
| [23:45:58] | stuartm: | Beirdo^2: you could, well can say that the Git change was pushed through by a few (mostly two) vocal devs :) |
| [23:47:38] | Beirdo^2: | True. But we did come to a concensus on it |
| [23:47:41] | xris: | stuartm: it was more than 2. but call it 2 steering committee members and one very vocal dev, plus a bunch of git-liking lower-contributing devs |
| [23:48:13] | Beirdo^2: | If we want to change back right after 0.25 as agreed that's different |
| [23:48:35] | stuartm: | xris: there's a silent majority who didn't say anything when it was first discussed because they had no experience of Git and didn't feel qualified to vote for or against |
| [23:49:01] | xris: | stuartm: and they're still silent. |
| [23:49:41] | stuartm: | Beirdo^2: ^^ and many more who agreed on principle for the same reasons, they had no experience but were willing to accept your word that Git was much better |
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| [23:50:01] | xris: | iamlindoro: you can add kormoc to your revert-to-svn count.. he's away from internet but I know how he feels |
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| [23:51:05] | stuartm: | xris: paul-h and elmojo to name two are no longer silent and we don't know that the others will remain silent, we should ask everyone to state their position before moving on |
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| [23:53:10] | stuartm: | rkulagow, gigem, kenni, knightr, sphery: As much as you'd probably like to stay out of the argument/firing line, we do need to know what everyone thinks this time |
| [23:53:42] | xris: | and *in email*.... no more of this "we decided in irc" crap (even if I'm actually around for this one) |
| [23:54:18] | ** kenni had already started on a reply to -developers ** | |
| [23:54:53] | stuartm: | yes, in email, on the record – if you don't 'vote' then you'll be stuck with whatever the rest of us decide and that's no good for anyone |
| [23:58:06] | stuartm: | I suspect more people would be willing to 'vote' if it was a secret ballot, that might not be entirely appropriate under the circumstances but I know that some people don't want to appear to take sides and risk upsetting/offending the others |
| [23:58:17] | knightr: | stuartm, for what we do Kenni and I (and for the translators use until we have an online translation tool) git is overkill... Even for my job at work (senior analyst-programmer) I find git overkill but whatever you guys decide to keep I'll use it... |
| [23:58:31] | xris: | stuartm: https://github.com/blog/644-subversion-write-support |
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