MythLogBot@irc.freenode.net :: #mythtv

Daily chat history

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Thursday, November 4th, 2010, 00:08 UTC
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[00:08:52] Beirdo: hmm, that's a good point, actually
[00:12:32] xris: cdev: btw, love your API spec idea...
[00:12:59] xris: haven't read through it in detail, but it sounds similar to something I've been pushing for for awhile
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[00:38:23] knightr: reynaldo, Hi! Since we are probably getting quite close to a release could you please, when you have a chance, take a look at those Spanish translation issues you mentionned and backport the tickets which were only applied to Trunk? Thanks!
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[01:01:35] reynaldo: knightr: will do tomorrow, thanks for the nudge
[01:01:44] reynaldo: been uterly busy lately
[01:08:42] knightr: reynaldo, np. Thanks!
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[01:55:46] reynaldo: knightr: you around?
[01:55:59] knightr: reynaldo, yep!
[01:56:14] reynaldo: can yu please take a look at http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/raw-attachment/tic . . . slation.diff
[01:56:17] reynaldo: ?
[01:56:18] reynaldo: I have a question
[01:56:51] knightr: yep, I have opened it...
[01:56:53] reynaldo: something seems wrong but it might be some linguist mambojambo
[01:57:15] reynaldo: OK, line 511 and 504
[01:57:25] reynaldo: there are others but those two should be a good example
[01:57:46] reynaldo: location tag/element tis being removed from those strings
[01:58:05] reynaldo: but 80% of the patch adds missing 'location's here and there
[01:58:14] reynaldo: I understand its kind of optional?
[01:58:51] knightr: when they run lupdate they can decided to remove them but the command we give them is supposed to add it...
[01:58:59] reynaldo: line 480 for example
[01:59:07] reynaldo: yup
[01:59:24] reynaldo: and having a patch that adds and removes at the same time sounds quite ugly
[01:59:33] knightr: 480 is ok because it's replaced by another one because the position in the source code changed...
[01:59:47] reynaldo: sure, I mean, he didnt 'taked it out' that time
[02:00:01] reynaldo: I have another ammendments to that same patch
[02:00:08] reynaldo: can you please comment on the location thing
[02:00:10] reynaldo: ?
[02:00:20] reynaldo: I will send my corrections latter tonight
[02:00:31] reynaldo: its quite a large patch to review
[02:00:40] reynaldo: I just commited another shorter & pending one
[02:01:03] knightr: reynaldo, these are OK, I saw why...
[02:01:16] knightr: These are obsoleted strings, they are no longer present in the source code...
[02:01:17] reynaldo: enlightenme :)
[02:01:30] reynaldo: should we remove them then?
[02:01:35] reynaldo: shouldnt we
[02:01:35] knightr: I read it too fast the first time to notice...
[02:01:43] reynaldo: makes sence
[02:01:49] reynaldo: I didnt notice neither
[02:02:03] knightr: Usually yes, we have to run lupdate with --no-obsolete to do this...
[02:02:10] knightr: (or something like that...)
[02:02:40] reynaldo: ok, will send my carrections his way and if he manages to fix them soon enough I will ran the --no-obsolete myself
[02:03:02] knightr: problem is we didn't have time to do this before the branch so it's might be a little too late for most translations now..
[02:03:20] reynaldo: when is this happening?
[02:03:39] reynaldo: I will send the corrections anyway, the translation kind of sucks here and there
[02:03:43] reynaldo: to say it misdly
[02:03:46] reynaldo: mildly
[02:03:55] reynaldo: so I wont commit that patch
[02:04:13] knightr: reynaldo, np... Only problem with --no-obsolete is that if the strings changed stlightly the translators will lose their initial translation which might be OK overall...
[02:04:42] reynaldo: they should try to learn to work over a moving target
[02:04:50] reynaldo: and rutinely update their sources
[02:05:08] reynaldo: translations are in no way diferent to regular source in that regard
[02:05:14] knightr: for example if Please wait...... was translated to Bla bla... (with the correct number of ...) and then changed to Please wait... in English, they lose their translation which was OK...
[02:05:37] reynaldo: but unneded...
[02:06:08] knightr: reynaldo, we'll try to make them work on their translation between releases this time...
[02:06:15] reynaldo: humm, we should fix this system. I will spare myself the obsolete strings removal for now, yours its a valid point
[02:06:22] knightr: (ie between 0.24 and 0.25 and the next ones...)
[02:06:52] reynaldo: how tight are you with your spare time tomorrow?
[02:07:05] reynaldo: its circa 00 here and i need to be working at 6AM
[02:07:11] knightr: shouldn't be that bad, why?
[02:07:22] reynaldo: I'm starting to doubt I will get the time to backport these changes
[02:07:40] knightr: reynaldo, give me the changeset and I'll take care of this...
[02:07:57] knightr: I have to generate the qms anyway for both trunk and fixes anyway...
[02:08:23] reynaldo: let me finish reviewing this last one.
[02:08:29] reynaldo: will be back in 10m
[02:09:06] knightr: reynaldo, ok, np... I think there's r26982,r26985,r26986 and the ones you committed tonight....
[02:13:33] reynaldo: humm, what about 26824 ?
[02:16:02] ** knightr is currently trying to find out when we branched... **
[02:17:51] knightr: we branched on the 18th of october, 26824 was on the 15th so it was present when we branched so no need to backport...
[02:19:30] Beirdo: stuartm: #9126 I can confirm
[02:20:41] Beirdo: #9176, not sure what steps to do to confirm what you see with BBC
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[02:31:13] reynaldo: managed to get to 50% of the dude's patch
[02:31:23] reynaldo: knightr: shuting myself down for the night
[02:31:27] reynaldo: thanks for the help
[02:32:13] knightr: reynaldo, ok, thanks! Let me know when you want me to backport these... (a simple ping will suffice...) Good night!
[02:36:46] reynaldo: nites!
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[04:25:10] dmbreton: Does anyone here know where the myth protocol code is located in the trunk?
[04:26:08] iamlindoro: mythbackend/mainserver.*
[04:26:31] dmbreton: thanks
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[04:42:48] wagnerrp: dmbreton: you may also want to see the page on the wiki... http://mythtv.org/wiki/Myth_Protocol
[04:42:55] wagnerrp: oof...
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[04:45:24] dmbreton: Has any progress been made on standardizing the communication between the frontend and the backend?
[04:48:15] iamlindoro: ? Standardize in what fashion?
[04:48:32] dmbreton: A more standard communication protocol between the frontend/backend/etc. Currently uses a custom protocol, and it would be nice to replace with something that's more of a standard. Note: this really needs to be fairly efficient, since this is a common task. Parsing XML queries/responses several hundred times a second really isn't a good thing to be spending CPU time on. dbus? Google Protocol Buffers?
[04:48:59] dmbreton: from the possible future development taks(normal priority)
[04:49:28] iamlindoro: That's something that has been spoken about, but is not on anyone's near term radar
[04:49:55] iamlindoro: I wouldn't expect to see anything like that in the next year or two, if I had to guess
[04:50:32] dmbreton: I was looking to write a boxee app as a myth frontend and am interested in understanding and perhaps helping define whichever protocol you use
[04:51:07] iamlindoro: Such a drastic change will most definitely not occur in the next release or two-- at the earliest I would expect it could be looked at in a year or so
[04:51:27] dmbreton: is it something i could help with
[04:51:41] iamlindoro: You'd have to be around when it became a feasible task
[04:51:42] dmbreton: i have alot of experience in this field
[04:52:04] iamlindoro: but we have many higher priority tasks as our current protocol serves all of our needs presently
[04:52:25] mrand: dmbreton: dbus (and perhaps some pro's and con's) was mentioned on the -dev (or was it -users) mailing list a while back.
[04:52:25] mrand: also, there is one or two other applications that are compatible or near compatible with the current prototcol that you could base on
[04:53:02] iamlindoro: I would not suggest using any of the myth itnerfacing libraries, since they're all broken/dangerous
[04:53:14] dmbreton: ok thanks for the tip
[04:53:18] iamlindoro: the python bindings are the best current target to build a third party FE
[04:53:29] mrand: iamlindoro: I was suggesting it in hopes they would get repaired and therefore undangerous.
[04:53:41] mrand: although no arguing about the python bindings
[04:53:43] dmbreton: at this point i am thinking of writing my own library to impliment your protocol
[04:54:06] iamlindoro: mrand, Do you also suggest running with scissors in the hopes that the person learn what a bad idea it is?  ;)
[04:54:27] iamlindoro: or more likely, that they manage to survive and suggest that others do it?  ;)
[04:54:37] mrand: iamlindoro: I admit to not looking at the existing ones – are they so bad that they should be tossed and not even used as a reference for people to understand the protocol?
[04:55:07] dmbreton: thats my main problem atm
[04:55:07] mrand: From what I understand, documentation on the myth side is almost non-existent.
[04:55:12] dmbreton: understanding the protocol
[04:55:20] iamlindoro: mrand, where di you learn that, the ubuntu forums?
[04:55:22] dmbreton: the documentation is not that clear
[04:55:27] iamlindoro: mrand, The wiki has the full protocol documented
[04:55:54] sphery: dmbreton: remember that the MythTV protocol is a constantly-moving target, so be prepared to keep up with changes or your app will bitrot (to the point of endangering your users' data)
[04:55:54] iamlindoro: Including which were added in which protocol revisions, what they do, what the arguments and returned data are, etc.
[04:56:41] mrand: iamlindoro: statements like "Some example MythTV protocol exchanges, taken from a packet sniffing capture of a 0.19 frontend to backend exchange: " on the wiki page do not instill confidence.
[04:57:01] sphery: dmbreton: that's the primary problem with all the existing "implementations" of the MythTV protocol--someone gets excited and starts an implementation, gets bored, and their users pay the price
[04:57:20] mrand: But perhaps dmbreton could verify and expand everything on the wiki page.
[04:57:27] iamlindoro: We don't care if people want to write myth interface libraries-- in fact, it's a fine thing-- we just ask that they a) keep it up to date, and b) not masquerade as being compatible with a protocol revision that they aren't, as all of the current third party ones do
[04:57:52] dmbreton: I should be safe if i use the MYTH_PROTO_VERSION correct?
[04:57:54] iamlindoro: mrand, There's little to expand and nothing to verify, each protocol command is clickable and has it's own page written by a myth dev
[04:58:10] sphery: dmbreton: yes, and if you don't fake the proto version
[04:58:30] dmbreton: well that would the defeat the purpose of the command
[04:58:42] iamlindoro: dmbreton, tell all the people who do it :)
[04:58:56] iamlindoro: It's precisely our discomfort with some of the third party frontends in the past
[04:59:13] mrand: iamlindoro: I'm hoping statement like "(This information is from reading the code and packet sniffing. Do not take this information as a specification, as the developers may not have intended some of the following behavior) " could be removed from the wiki page.
[04:59:23] iamlindoro: they have, to the last, pretended to speak protocol versions that they don't in order to "work" with versions they haven't tested against
[04:59:29] iamlindoro: mrand, Feel free
[05:02:08] dmbreton: Is it safe to assume that the MYTH_PROTO_VERSION will be incremented whenever the changes are made?
[05:02:23] iamlindoro: yes, that is our policy
[05:03:41] dmbreton: ok
[05:03:45] dmbreton: thanks for the help
[05:03:51] iamlindoro: np
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[05:14:09] wagnerrp: iamlindoro: actually, MythtvJ (java) only works against version 40, and the custom code in mythbox (xbmc) properly handles access to multiple versions of the protocol
[05:14:34] wagnerrp: the problem is that libcmyth which is used for the actual playback in xbmc does bad things
[05:15:08] wagnerrp: mrand: speaking of things like that, i really should just remove them from the wiki
[05:15:35] wagnerrp: ive rewritten much of those pages on the wiki over the past year by actually reading through the code and figuring out how to use it
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[09:40:00] stuartm: iamlindoro: what was the reasoning behind http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/27096  ?
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[11:44:36] iamlindoro: stuartm, Your window area created a relative starting point such that all the widgets were off the screen
[11:45:00] iamlindoro: I did test both before and after...
[11:45:37] iamlindoro: didn't work before, worked fine after
[11:45:42] ** iamlindoro goes back to bed **
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[11:49:08] iamlindoro: (to be more clear, <area>0,480,1280,240</area> of the background relative to the window area is at 0,960 with the window area defined, and at 0,480 without it)
[11:50:00] iamlindoro: versus, say, osd_status where you correctly have a window area of <area>0,535,1280,144</area> and put the background at <area>0,0,1280,144</area>
[11:50:25] ** iamlindoro mumbles something about not touching anyone else tickets again and goes back to bed for real this time **
[11:55:36] stuartm: right, so the background image position is wrong
[11:56:11] stuartm: it's just that without a window size it will draw a fullscreen texture for the OSD which is that much slower to composite
[11:57:10] stuartm: iamlindoro: appreciate you coming up with a fix, it's just not the fix I would have used
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[13:39:25] Captain_Murdoch: danielk22, can you ping me when you're around? I have a question/idea about the on the fly adding of tuners that has been talked about for the settings rewrite.
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[14:40:23] btwe: Hi, I started to move from .21 to .24svn. I am not quite familiar with QT framework. On mythtv-setup startup it says: QSqlDatabase: QMYSQL3 driver not loaded, available drivers: QSQLITE QPSQL7 QPSQL. Where could I check for those db drivers?
[14:40:59] clever: btwe: you need the qt mysql lib installed
[14:41:18] clever: and your in the wrong channel
[14:41:58] btwe: clever: sry, didnt check the topic... new to me
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[17:01:31] danielk22: iamlindoro: From the logs it looks like the signal monitor thought it had a signal but then it failed to record anything. But Those would need to be -v playback,file and -v record,channel logs to get any further on that issue. There are a number of "Error" verbose messages in the backend log, but they are probably unrelated.
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[17:03:32] danielk22: Captain_Murdoch: The recorder classes are all designed to be able to be shut down and restarted. But that has never been tested since we just never shut them down. The scheduler keeps an array of the the recorders, that would need to be some other container and it would need to be locked.
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[17:05:21] danielk22: Captain_Murdoch: I was considering this issue in the mythtv-setup replacement changeset, but I don't recall if I ever got around to implementing it. See #8262.
[17:07:39] danielk22: I haven't touched that code in 7th months.. Back then I hoped we'd be finishing up 0.25 by now.
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[18:14:21] Captain_Murdoch: danielk22, ok, so that may negate the need for an idea that crossed my mind. you probably heard that there are several of us who would like to break out the recording/tuner functionality out of the master so the master is truly just a master. in thinking about that, one of the things that crossed my mind was if there would be any benefit to having a separate process for each capture card itself, along the lines of "mythtuner --
[18:14:21] Captain_Murdoch: cardid 3". The slave backend process manager could start/stop/restart these as necessary.
[18:20:07] Captain_Murdoch: I'm working on a brief writeup about the master functionality split which I hope to send to the developers list in the next few days.
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[18:51:08] danielk22: it sounds like that would just complicate things
[18:53:27] stuartm: well finally I'm not the only one saying that
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[18:58:06] Captain_Murdoch: stuartm, I think he's just saying mythtuner, not the dedicated master process idea.
[18:58:35] Captain_Murdoch: danielk22, can you confirm?
[18:58:58] Captain_Murdoch: or do you guys like the "if (islocal)" stuff spread through the backend since it's got to be a master and slave in one binary.
[18:59:13] ** Captain_Murdoch has to be afk for a while but will return **
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[19:10:56] stuartm: to be the devil's advocate, why does reducing the instances of 'islocal' necessarily require the recording functionality be split out into a new application? It just seems to me that the same segregation can be done internally and that involving multiple processes just increases the complexity and probability of things going wrong
[19:11:43] stuartm: but I've said all that before and still been out voted, I don't have anything new to add to the argument so I'll shut up :)
[19:18:57] wagnerrp: i think the plan is supposed to be along the old UNIX philosophy of 'one task one program'
[19:20:23] wagnerrp: if you want to record something, it spawns off a 'recorder' process to open the tuner and do whatever, streaming the recording to the backend, or a file
[19:20:28] stuartm: well there is something I might add, although I don't begrudge anyone working on the project that interests them the most, a major restructuring/refactor for minimal gain seems like a waste of resources when solving some other outstanding problems and completing some of the longer term goals would have a much more positive impact for a majority of users
[19:22:24] cdev: I've always liked the idea that the backend would be a pure media/metadata server with recordings fed into it from multiple sources. It would still be the coordinator, keeping the schedule of upcoming recordings. It would also help with porting to other environments since the recorders would be standalone processes/plugins and tend to have the most driver specific code.
[19:23:44] wagnerrp: have one process for dvb recordings, one for v4l, one for iptv, one for hdpvr, one for bda, etc..
[19:24:31] wagnerrp: just use shared libraries for communication with the backend for control of livetv
[19:32:50] stuartm: cdev: right now the backend is far short of being the media server that it needs to be, mythvideo, mythmusic, mythgallery etc _still_ need to be merged in, we still depend on an external database even though it seems everyone agrees that it should be embedded, mythweb is still waiting for it's realtime transcoding capability, get some of these jobs done and then maybe consider tearing apart and rebuilding mythbackend
[19:34:05] cdev: stuartm: agreed. I was stating one of my long term goal, however unreasonable. :)
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[19:36:07] iamlindoro: Hmm... I worked a couple of months ago on starting to mock up how to do web setup, but didn't make it very far
[19:36:09] stuartm: this particular discussion seems to animate me more than any other, probably best if I step away from the screen before I repeat the incoherent rant I gave the last time it came up :)
[19:36:13] iamlindoro: http://www.fecitfacta.com/setup1.png http://www.fecitfacta.com/setup2.png for posterity
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[19:37:11] iamlindoro: Really need someone to step up and provide at least a loose design doc for this rewrite
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[20:01:46] sphery: stuartm: Also, if nothing else, it's an easy approach to allow the capture-card-less "backend" (i.e. run the master backend process on one always-on system without capture cards, run recording processes on systems that have capture cards and are shut down when not needed by the master/scheduler, run the file serving/storage group process on the always-on system with all the NFS storage, ...)
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[20:06:50] stuartm: yeah ... I just don't see it being any easier than reorganising mythbackend to do allow for the same, fundamentally I'm just not seeing the benefits at all and all I do see are negatives, but no-one else agrees with me, I've singularly failed to change anyone's mind, so I surrender ;)
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[20:10:43] stuartm: all I'll continue to fight for is that the end-user does not need a degree in MythTV architecture to run it, better if they never even have to know what it's doing in the background
[20:13:26] sphery: stuartm: yeah, and that's the idea--have one app started in the init script that spawns all the appropriate daemon processes for the host
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[20:16:39] stuartm: sphery: I know that's the plan, but it's not as though we haven't seen feature creep in the past and I wonder just how long it would be before we see users trying to use 'mythtuner' all by itself because they 'don't need a full backend'
[20:19:54] wagnerrp: so call it .mythtuner, theyll never see it coming
[20:22:14] iamlindoro: message to -developers, hope you can all find a moment to read and reply
[20:22:24] iamlindoro: xris: HA
[20:22:28] sphery: stuartm: Yeah, I can see that happening. I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing (at least with the main backend process stuff, like mythjobqueue and mythrecorder and such), but it could be a problem if we do the mythtuner thing Captain_Murdoch mentioned above. In the other cases, it's mainly just users making their own lives more complex for the placebo effect they get from their "optimizations" (and losing things like ...
[20:22:34] sphery: ... automatic process restarts and such that the process starting/monitoring app could provide).
[20:22:43] iamlindoro: xris: I just sent a suggested timeline to .25 and by the time I got back to my inbox, yours was there
[20:23:04] iamlindoro: xris: Personally think we need 8 months for the setup rewrite, given the holidays and scope of the project
[20:26:13] xris: iamlindoro: so aim for july?
[20:26:25] xris: sounds reasonable to me
[20:26:40] xris: kormoc and I just got an offer of more html5 help for mythweb+googletv+whatever
[20:26:48] iamlindoro: xris: That was my thought, mostly out of an abundance of caution/our notorious slowness to move, but if we think we can get the whole thing done in 6, more power to us
[20:26:58] xris: yeah, sounds reasonable to me
[20:26:59] ** Captain_Murdoch realizes he never hit enter on a message he typed 30+ minutes ago in here. **
[20:27:11] iamlindoro: xris: My proposal was mostly just to get the discussion going again
[20:27:11] Captain_Murdoch: I'm fine with a 8 month cycle for this.
[20:27:17] iamlindoro: I'm not married to any particular date
[20:27:34] Captain_Murdoch: iamlindoro, that was my timeline, not xris'. :)
[20:27:35] xris: there are a lot of open ended discussions about the setup/settings rewrite... was chatting with kormoc and Beirdo about embedded webserver stuff at lunch today...
[20:27:45] iamlindoro: And wanted to set up some checkpoints where we can see where we're at/start to try to break it down into manageable chunks
[20:27:50] iamlindoro: Captain_Murdoch: oh, whoops
[20:27:53] iamlindoro: sorry :)
[20:28:20] xris: iamlindoro: jira+greenhopper +++
[20:28:23] Captain_Murdoch: no problem. I say shoot for 8 and we get it done in 6 then that's great.
[20:28:53] xris: agreed
[20:29:00] iamlindoro: Captain_Murdoch, xris: What I proposed is more of a subset of the overall release schedule anyway-- I would like to see the design concrete by 12/1, including the API/mechanism to complete it, then do monthly checkups to track progress
[20:29:06] xris: better to undercommit and overdeliver than the other way around
[20:29:51] iamlindoro: Whether the basic mechanism of the API framework and settings editor capability in the webserver is feasible by then will really be a question best addressed by danielk22 and cdev
[20:29:58] iamlindoro: I'm hoping it will be
[20:30:06] iamlindoro: Then we can just start breaking off chucnks
[20:30:07] iamlindoro: er chunks
[20:30:15] Captain_Murdoch: iamlindoro, I understand. this is part of the reason I threw a timeline out there, another part is so that we can set expectations for the timeline on some of the things we plan on deprecating.
[20:30:32] iamlindoro: And if after a month or two we've not made any progress, we can either try to monivate people or revise schedules
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[20:30:45] cdev: iamlindoro: The framework can be committed soon, the fleshing out of the methods would need to be addressed seperately.
[20:30:49] xris: iamlindoro: that's called "agile" ;)
[20:31:15] xris: cdev: can you branch trunk and get it committed to svn so other people can play with it?
[20:31:18] Captain_Murdoch: cdev, any code in there to serve static files?
[20:31:22] xris: sounds like we have plenty of consensus about it being a good idea.
[20:31:44] cdev: Captain_Murdoch: yes, already supported in current version.
[20:31:51] Captain_Murdoch: ah, didn't know that.
[20:32:20] Captain_Murdoch: I mean like mycooljslib.js, is that what you mean as well?
[20:32:29] cdev: xris: I was trying to avoid branching since the constant merging is taking all my time.
[20:32:40] cdev: Captain_Murdoch: yes.
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[20:32:59] xris: cdev: sorry. brain still stuck in git land.  ;)
[20:33:04] xris: merge tracking should help now, though
[20:33:04] cdev: we use it currently to return service description files.
[20:34:05] cdev: xris: the issue I have is the mythtxml file has been replaced by a mythap file with completely different signature and code to return data. Merge tracking doesn't help.
[20:34:13] ** xris wishes there was an online service to share flowchart files.... **
[20:34:27] xris: cdev: gotcha
[20:34:29] Captain_Murdoch: is there any reason to have this infrastructure available on the frontend as well? the only reason I can think of is remote control but I'm sure there are others.
[20:34:55] xris: remote control is a big deal
[20:35:07] xris: but could maybe use it as a poll mechanism for mythlcdserver?
[20:35:12] xris: pull rather than push?
[20:36:59] cdev: the current implementation exposes services, so if there is a set of methods that needs to be exposed to call into a frontend then sure.
[20:37:31] xris: replacing the telnet interface with a real API could be handy
[20:38:05] Captain_Murdoch: cdev, the only reason I ask is to say if we want that flexibilty then the guts need to be under libs, not programs/mythbackend.
[20:38:19] Captain_Murdoch: xris, replace/supplement :) simple telnet and nc are nice to have.
[20:38:56] cdev: Currently, the guts are in libmythupnp, which the frontend already uses.
[20:39:11] Captain_Murdoch: great
[20:39:20] Captain_Murdoch: wasn't sure if the new stuff was there as well.
[20:39:30] Captain_Murdoch: I'm all on board.
[20:39:42] iamlindoro: cdev: Well timed improvement, nice work ;)
[20:40:11] stuartm: sphery: when Ubuntu started putting the rubber padding on the walls/floor and rounding off the corners on all the furniture I was among those who scoffed at the idea that users needed the complexity and power hidden from them, but I've done a 180 degree turn since then, having watched user after user try to make things as difficult as possible for themselves I've realised that all of us overestimate our abilities and
[20:40:13] stuartm: understanding in some way, give users the rope and they will hang themselves even if they think they know what they are doing, so I'm siding more and more with the ubuntu and apple philosophy – hide away that complexity as deep as possible because for every one user who might actually have a real use for it there are hundreds who think they want it but really they don't
[20:40:39] cdev: The code listed at the end of the webpage I threw together is in the upnplib, the mythxml/mythapi is in the backend
[20:42:12] xris: Captain_Murdoch: right. but telnet just becomes another input to cdev'
[20:42:14] ** Captain_Murdoch notices that cdev 'throws' things together very nicely. **
[20:42:16] xris: cdev's new api layer
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[20:43:17] ** cdev hates to admit, but the web page is just a word 2010 document saved as html. **
[20:43:27] xris: lol
[20:44:00] ** Captain_Murdoch sees 'word' and takes back everything he's said. **
[20:44:07] cdev: lol
[20:44:59] cdev: I try to hide it, but I'm a heavy MS user... I developed the api framework in Visual Studio. .. let the stone throwing commence!
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[20:47:17] ** cdev didn't expect silence! wow. **
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[20:47:29] ** Captain_Murdoch isn't an OS bigot, whatever is the best tool for the job. just that MS isn't best for the job in a lot of cases. :) **
[20:48:03] Captain_Murdoch: and Linux isn't ether in a lot....
[20:48:08] Captain_Murdoch: either
[20:48:33] cdev: honestly, I have to use what pays the bills... all my jobs require microsoft knowledge.
[20:48:41] stuartm: cdev: it was stunned silence ;)
[20:49:06] Captain_Murdoch: or ROTFL :)
[20:49:12] Captain_Murdoch: so couldn't type
[20:50:20] cdev: as a side note, I was able to get libmythdb, libmythupnp, libmyth, libmythui, libmythsoundtouch, libmythsamplerate, libmythfreessurround, libmythtv and mythbackend to compile as native Visual Studio projects!
[20:50:56] ** cdev does test all changes on a ubuntu box prior to commiting! **
[20:51:38] cdev: BTWL why do we link libmythui into the backend!
[20:53:29] Captain_Murdoch: stuartm, totally joking, but we could put hidden options into all those extra binaries and do something like passing in the binary version on the command line using an undocumented command line option. if you didn't specify the right thing, "ERROR: This isn't the binary you're looking for, try 'mythtv'!"
[20:54:21] Captain_Murdoch: cdev, might be due to an old circular dependency. it might work without it now, especially after the MythContext <-> MythCoreContext split.
[20:55:25] cdev: Will have to try... Still merging all the recent changes in so I can debug again.
[20:56:44] stuartm: cdev: iirc we linked libmythui into the backend because someone put myth_system into libmythui which never made much sense, since myth_system was moved to libmythdb? it's probably not necessary anymore
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[20:57:40] dekarl: did someone mention taking rope away from the users? WRT guide data time zones, I have been looking around for other sources of guide data and while there's lots of howtos that
[20:57:41] dekarl: start with "change the mythtv default" there's only very little good sources with wrong time offset in their xmltv files (and these can be handled with simple grabbers instead of manuel grab + manual mythfilldatabase)
[20:57:42] xris: why does myth_system require the UI?
[20:57:43] cdev: either way, at this point it's not a big deal. All the hard work to get it to compile is already done.
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[20:58:17] stuartm: pretty much everything still in libmyth should be reviewed, it either needs to move to libmythdb, be deleted (old ui stuff) or restructured
[20:58:28] ** Captain_Murdoch agrees **
[20:58:31] stuartm: xris: it used to require access for the LIRC/Joystick locks
[20:59:08] stuartm: xris: but like I said, it was always contentious, I never wanted it in libmythui to start with
[20:59:09] cdev: libMythui was pulled in due to the libmyth also.
[20:59:25] stuartm: libmyth should not depend on libmythui
[20:59:33] superm1: there's a lot of areas that things are linked needlessly into binaries actually. at the end of any of our daily deb builds it lists out each of them that are linked but don't use any symbols
[21:00:35] Captain_Murdoch: lots of mythui stuff in libmyth.
[21:00:56] cdev: It may very well be that I can remove both libmythui and libmyth now... I'll have to playaround when I have time.
[21:00:59] stuartm: and strictly speaking I'd prefer it if we didn't link libmythui in libmythtv, that's only necessary because of mythavtest, if we didn't need mythavtest anymore (replace it with a command line arg to mythfrontend?) then libmythtv could go on a diet
[21:02:13] superm1: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/58558189/buildl . . . LDING.txt.gz if you take a look at that and search for "dpkg-shlibdeps: warning: dependency on " it will list out all of the things that are needlessly linked
[21:02:15] xris: stuartm: gotcha.
[21:02:24] Captain_Murdoch: libmyth depends on libmythui. language settings, mythuifilebrowser, rawsettingseditor, xmlparse, uitypes.cpp, uilistbtntype, settings.cpp...
[21:02:58] stuartm: Captain_Murdoch: after the setup re-write the language settings moves into mythfrontend
[21:03:12] Captain_Murdoch: one down... :)
[21:03:13] stuartm: xmlparse/uitypes/etc are all slated for removal
[21:03:20] stuartm: they all belong to the old ui
[21:03:41] Captain_Murdoch: we need a place for UI code that can be shared between programs, unless our only UI program is going to be mythfrontend.
[21:03:43] stuartm: and they only link libmythui because they share the font parser
[21:04:20] stuartm: Captain_Murdoch: that would be libmythui, surely?
[21:05:00] stuartm: the raw settings editor – is that used from anywhere except mythfrontend?
[21:05:48] Captain_Murdoch: mythtv-setup, so it could go away. and mythuifilebrowser might be able to go in libmythui now, it was in libmyth because of MythContext.
[21:06:05] Captain_Murdoch: s/go away/go to mythfrontend/
[21:09:25] Captain_Murdoch: need to move system event editor there as well once mythtv-setup goes away. that's what's actually used in mythtv-setup, the raw editor is only available via an undocumented command line option via an 'expertsettingseditor'.
[21:11:36] stuartm: it would be nice to get these dependancies fixed, it's not really necessary but it appeals to the neat freak that lies somewhere deep inside me ;)
[21:13:49] stuartm: and I mean deep because although I really do like order I'm sitting at a desk where every square inch is hidden by a pile of papers etc
[21:14:51] Captain_Murdoch: fyi, my main reason for bringing up the master/slave issue is that I think settings rewrite will be simpler if all tuners and resources like storage are 'remote' to the webserver/master. the other things are not driving reasons for me to spend time on a split. breaking out the JobQueue is just a few lines of code saved since we already have mythjobqueue.
[21:15:26] Captain_Murdoch: I'm all for fixing dependencies as well, and if a lot will go away as part of the mythtv-setup demise, then we should go for it in 0.25.
[21:15:36] Captain_Murdoch: s/will go away/can go away/
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[21:27:05] Evil_Eric: oooo
[21:27:10] Evil_Eric: hi guys
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[21:27:52] Evil_Eric: i have a tv card issue if anyone wants to help
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[21:28:44] iamlindoro: Evil_Eric: See topic
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[21:49:05] ByteChanger (ByteChanger!~tom@69-165-222-10.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #mythtv
[21:49:08] ByteChanger: hi guys!
[21:49:35] skd5aner: ByteChanger: I have a feeling you are going to want #mythtv-users
[21:50:08] ByteChanger: oops.
[21:50:11] ByteChanger: your right...
[21:50:34] ByteChanger: thanks. ;)
[21:50:43] skd5aner: np
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