| Monday, November 1st, 2010, 00:01 UTC | ||
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| [00:01:24] | sphery: | stuartm: I'm guessing you're working on http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/8995 ? |
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| [01:39:54] | Beirdo: | stuartm: there is no Job entry in the menu of this in-progress recording. Confirmed |
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| [02:19:58] | arst: | !mysql |
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| [08:51:37] | stuartm: | sphery: actually I wasn't of that ticket, I just noticed it for myself when I wanted to start editing an in-progress recording |
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| [15:23:58] | gergap: | hi |
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| [18:30:45] | xris: | iamlindoro: given you're sort of acting as PM on the 0.24 release, do you have a rough estimate of when it'll be ready? ... in the context of not wanting to start work on server migration stuff until after the release |
| [18:31:23] | iamlindoro: | xris: I plan to tag the RC2 tonight, so provided nothing huge comes up, I think November 8 should be the release |
| [18:31:52] | iamlindoro: | I have guarded hope that the 8th should be a strong liklihood :) |
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| [18:37:11] | xris: | cool. |
| [18:37:22] | xris: | will work on an official application to SD to host a temp server for us |
| [18:37:47] | xris: | it fits within my discretionary budget as COO, but there's enough potential conflict of interest that this should be voted on |
| [18:38:05] | iamlindoro: | Cool, I hope that provides you enough time to get logistics worked out |
| [18:39:25] | Beirdo: | 1 week for final release? here's hoping it goes well :) |
| [18:40:09] | xris: | iamlindoro: well, I don't plan to move things over immediately after release. |
| [18:40:38] | xris: | worst thing would be to move things over while people are still downloading the new release, and have the server fall over. |
| [18:40:53] | Beirdo: | that would be unfortunate to say the least |
| [18:41:54] | stuartm: | I've given up hope of seeing a bug-free 0.24, it seems that for every bug we fix another two spring up in it's place :/ |
| [18:42:25] | stuartm: | so yeah, 8th Nov is as good a date as any other |
| [18:42:56] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: .24 Horrible Hydra? |
| [18:43:11] | stuartm: | ;) |
| [18:44:48] | xris: | stuartm: yeah, as long as there are no serious things left, we can address them in a .1 |
| [18:46:20] | stuartm: | I've a couple of things I want to try and fix, but I'd also like to get back to working on new features, at least some of which may fix/eliminate some bugs |
| [18:47:23] | Beirdo: | yeah. The longer it sits around before release, more time for other odd bugs to be seen |
| [18:48:06] | iamlindoro: | or for perceived bugs due to incorrect install to confuse us/waste time |
| [18:48:28] | iamlindoro: | (/me is always on the lookout for the "I installed over a bunch of stale libs" bugs around releasetime) |
| [18:48:36] | stuartm: | btw, maybe we can decide on a new default theme for 0.25, I'm sick of working on Terra and therefore it's not really appropriate for it to remain the default |
| [18:48:43] | stuartm: | plus it's not very popular ... |
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| [18:50:46] | Beirdo: | we could pull it out to be just one of the ones in the theme downloader, and make a new default (or promote something?) |
| [18:52:21] | Beirdo: | iamlindoro: yeah, we seem to get a lot of the "I didn't clean up between installs" bugs, don't we? |
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| [19:02:10] | ** Captain_Murdoch still would like to see a new 'default' and 'default-wide' that were full themes but also used as fallback. those would be the only 2 we distributed, all others would be downloaded by the user in the theme downloader. ie, no more mythtv-themes packages and potentially no more mythtv-themes in subversion if we hosted all other themes on a 3rd party site. /me even played with mythtv-themes.googlecode.com the other day beca ** | |
| [19:06:09] | iamlindoro: | cut off at "other day beca" |
| [19:06:32] | wagnerrp: | i saw a 'u' in there too |
| [19:07:12] | stuartm: | eventually it's going to become impossible for anyone to get away from google |
| [19:07:46] | iamlindoro: | Well, if there's an objection we *could* always host the themes, but provide a web portal for upload/update a la deviantart |
| [19:08:11] | iamlindoro: | I think it would be very professional if we did, but don't feel strongly enough about it either way :) |
| [19:10:25] | stuartm: | I'd always imagined we'd host them with a web-ui for uploading, browsing and rating etc, but I don't really have time to write it on top of everything else so ultimately I'll accept whatever we end up with |
| [19:10:45] | wagnerrp: | Captain_Murdoch: in regards to the simultaneous job scaling in the jobqueue |
| [19:11:02] | wagnerrp: | have you ever looked into using the same interfaces as `iotop` |
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| [19:14:31] | Captain_Murdoch: | I didn't look into that ticket much, I made that patch to retain existing functionality and asked the poster to test it and never heard back so it sat for a long while. |
| [19:15:09] | Captain_Murdoch: | wagnerrp, iamlindoro, RE: my googlecode comment, heres the end... -> because I'd still like to see a site where users could publish their own partially complete themes for other users to try out/comment-on/etc.. |
| [19:16:10] | Captain_Murdoch: | stuartm, I don't care where the site is at, I just think it will promote theming a whole lot more if users can put up partially complete themes for other users to test out. if we allow only fully complete themes on our official site, then users still have to manually install themes to test new ones out. |
| [19:17:02] | Captain_Murdoch: | even if it's on our own wiki with download links pointing elsewhere (but still labeled as '3rd party themes' in the theme download screen and toggled independently of the official themes list). |
| [19:20:19] | Captain_Murdoch: | stuartm, yeah, the web-ui is the bulk of the work, a whole lot more than themechooser.cpp and the underlying code I put into the download manager, etc.. I'd like to see ratings, etc. as well. to support that well though, we'd be better off having just one site and marking some themes as official and some as not. or perhaps just a scale where only we can assign something to the highest rating to show we think it's good and compl |
| [19:20:19] | Captain_Murdoch: | ete, etc.. |
| [19:21:42] | Captain_Murdoch: | iamlindoro, did you miss a 'not' in there before your professional comment or do you think it woudl be best if we hosted all, even incomplete, themes that were available for download? |
| [19:22:19] | iamlindoro: | I didn't miss a not, I just meant that us hosting them in a mythtv.org site that provides a nice portal would be professional |
| [19:22:26] | iamlindoro: | versus outsourcing that bit to google |
| [19:22:51] | iamlindoro: | Obviously there exists a wish vs. work gap, but still ;) |
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| [19:26:22] | Captain_Murdoch: | ok thanks for clarification. I agree, I'd prefer a single portal. we need another web developer. :| |
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| [19:27:28] | iamlindoro: | That seems like something that we might actually get some response to if we solicited the users list |
| [19:29:16] | Captain_Murdoch: | yeah. even if I don't have the web side working, I can start working on the download side. that would allow me to at least manually setup some of the outside themes for download while indicating that they aren't official or possibly fully complete. |
| [19:29:33] | ** Captain_Murdoch senses he needs to do some brainstorming and typing. ** | |
| [19:29:48] | iamlindoro: | heh |
| [19:30:21] | ** Captain_Murdoch is afk ** | |
| [19:34:03] | mrand: | perhaps a pulldown for "complete themes" vs. "incomplete" vs. "idea mock-ups"? |
| [19:35:48] | iamlindoro: | mrand: I don't think there is any concern about how to do the Myth UI (we already have menu options for the local vs. Online themes in the downloader, adding more options is easy), the question is more "who is going to write and maintain the web portal" |
| [19:36:26] | mrand: | got it. Really wish I could help with that |
| [19:37:00] | iamlindoro: | No worries |
| [19:45:38] | kormoc: | Captain_Murdoch, we need some info before the current web devs can code :P |
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| [21:07:34] | Captain_Murdoch: | kormoc, thought you guys were too busy. I'm happy to start working on something. I have a test theme browser php script on the site just so I could verify all files were in place, but it's nothing like we'd need/want. I started a new section in my Theme Chooser TODO file to write up something for the upload site. |
| [21:08:20] | kormoc: | Captain_Murdoch, Heh, I'll be busy until there's a request to do something, then I'll make some free time :) |
| [21:08:42] | Captain_Murdoch: | mrand, and eventually it would be nice to do things like analyze the theme during upload so we could tell the potential download user that it was missing screens X, Y, and W. |
| [21:09:06] | ** Captain_Murdoch takes that as a bit of incentive. ** | |
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| [21:10:55] | stuartm: | kormoc: maybe you could fix/improve the icon stuff on services? As noted earlier there are flaws in the way the search works, the approval interface needs filters and some sort of auto-approval when icons submissions hit a threshold wouldn't hurt |
| [21:11:16] | stuartm: | I don't suppose it would be a huge amount of work |
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| [21:11:24] | kormoc: | Sure |
| [21:11:42] | stuartm: | oh, I believe the ATSC mappings are broken as well |
| [21:12:16] | kormoc: | I'd need some explanation on that (broken ATSC mappings) |
| [21:13:02] | stuartm: | right now loading up the approval page on services takes ten minutes because hundreds/thousands of icons are awaiting approval and there is no pagination, or filtering by number of submissions etc |
| [21:13:11] | kormoc: | ahh, kk |
| [21:13:20] | kormoc: | I'm not sure I even have the urls for taht |
| [21:13:21] | kormoc: | *that |
| [21:13:54] | stuartm: | kormoc: http://services.mythtv.org/channel-icon/edit/ |
| [21:14:36] | stuartm: | the source is in the services repo |
| [21:15:28] | xris: | it's perl, though. that'll scare him away. |
| [21:15:33] | xris: | that whole thing needs to be rewritten |
| [21:15:38] | stuartm: | hmm, maybe the ATSC bug has been fixed ... I really can't remember what the problem was |
| [21:15:39] | xris: | heck, should probably get rewritten for 0.25 |
| [21:16:11] | xris: | atsc mappings have never worked.. I think the issue is that mythtv stores them internally in the same way as dvb so I wrote the handler wrong for how to differentiate them |
| [21:18:45] | stuartm: | the api is a little opaque, it would be nice to have some clear documentation on it, I know that the original built-in downloader was based on the original perl source but it got some things wrong especially concerning the formatting of results |
| [21:19:46] | kormoc: | kk |
| [21:19:59] | skd5aner: | kormoc: to add on to the icon stuff on services – there's a ton of feedback I could give you there from when I go in approve icons for the US |
| [21:20:01] | kormoc: | I might have some time tonight to spec some improvements out if folks are around |
| [21:20:19] | stuartm: | kormoc: you might regret asking ;) |
| [21:20:41] | kormoc: | I reserve the right to run away screaming like a little girl ;) |
| [21:21:41] | skd5aner: | you can't really "undo" something – or update an already approved selection, or easily see what's been approved (you sort of can via search, but it's not very useful and I think is read-only) |
| [21:23:10] | skd5aner: | I actually haven't went in and approved any icons in about 3 months because I try to be extremely thourough about it to make sure I'm getting the right icon... I had probably approved a few thousand for North America users, but that was only about 10% of all that needed to be approved |
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| [21:24:21] | skd5aner: | Of course, it'd be nice if there was some way to automatically return the channel name for a given XMLTVID, as that's half of the effort right there |
| [21:24:51] | skd5aner: | or, link to the zap2it page by clicking o the XMLTVID that needs reviewed so you could see what the channel is |
| [21:25:03] | skd5aner: | I try not to make any assumptions when going through the icon approvals |
| [21:25:52] | skd5aner: | I'm sure if I got back into it, I could make a quick checklist of the things that make it the most difficult – like stuartm said, pagination would probably be the biggest win :) |
| [21:27:14] | skd5aner: | heh, and the coolest win for the users would be if we could get the HQ icons, which I don't think would be that difficult to do – I've already talked with xris about it a while ago |
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| [21:28:14] | xris: | skd5aner: the biggest problem is that to get them we'd have to scrape ALL of lyngsat |
| [21:28:20] | xris: | and I'm not willing to risk pissing them off. |
| [21:28:39] | xris: | they sell their data and I know they're not exactly keen on us using them for that. |
| [21:28:44] | skd5aner: | I don't think you have to do that |
| [21:28:52] | xris: | yeah, the URLs can't be guessed. |
| [21:28:58] | skd5aner: | yes the can :) |
| [21:29:12] | xris: | not for the HD icons |
| [21:29:18] | skd5aner: | sure can |
| [21:29:23] | skd5aner: | let me show you an example... just a sec |
| [21:29:25] | xris: | you have to scrape the medium-sized thumbnail lists, which total a couple thousand pages on the site |
| [21:29:40] | xris: | vs the small-thumbnail pages that are only a handful of alphabet pages. |
| [21:29:44] | skd5aner: | well, what do you do today to get th matchups? |
| [21:29:54] | xris: | afk, meeting |
| [21:30:13] | skd5aner: | heh... alright, I'll post here and you can come back and refute it if I'm incorrectly making an assumption |
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| [21:30:51] | skd5aner: | http://www.lyngsat-logo.com/tv/a_15.html |
| [21:32:04] | skd5aner: | oops, ignor that link |
| [21:33:37] | skd5aner: | xris: Comedy Central LQ icon – http://www.lyngsat-logo.com/logo/tv/cc/comedy_central_us.jpg and comedy central HQ icon – http://www.lyngsat-logo.com/hires/cc/comedy_central_us.png |
| [21:34:13] | skd5aner: | seems to me you just replace /logo/tv/ with /hires/ ? |
| [21:34:38] | skd5aner: | and .jpg with .png – but I know this has come up before – so maybe I'm missing the rub |
| [21:34:45] | skd5aner: | xris: ^^^ when you return, thanks |
| [21:36:36] | skd5aner: | xris: so, when we go in to the icon approver service – that pulls back all the LQ icons. I would imagine that if it found an LQ icon, it could see if an HQ icon existed and if so, use the HQ instead. I guess maybe that's where you're talking about sending too many requests... |
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| [21:37:25] | skd5aner: | anyway... wishful thinking... I know I manually downloaded all the HQ myself and skipped the icon selector because of that :) |
| [21:38:29] | jya: | has RC2 been tagged yet ? |
| [21:38:30] | iamlindoro: | I investigated this same thing a year ago and found the same replacement to work... and likewise ended up just manually grabbing all my icons and setting them, but I carefully noted the same relationship between low and high quality icons in each case |
| [21:38:37] | iamlindoro: | jya: No, probably a little later this evening |
| [21:38:43] | iamlindoro: | (US time evening, that is) |
| [21:38:46] | jya: | Will backport something then... |
| [21:38:57] | jya: | thanks |
| [21:38:59] | iamlindoro: | np |
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| [21:59:11] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: I think I've already hinted at an answer to your question about protocol in my email just now, as I see it there are multiple forms that people want and so for the setup stuff we shouldn't bind it to the existing protocol but instead allow for any number of different protocols to be added over a core 'protocol' base class |
| [21:59:45] | iamlindoro: | stuartm: Yes, I agree with you (I responded) |
| [22:01:18] | stuartm: | e.g. the SOAP, MythXML, JSON protocols* would all be objects subclassing the protocol class – done in a way that additions or changes to the protocol automatically work with those subclasses |
| [22:01:57] | stuartm: | * I don't know which protocols people really want, it seems a new one is in vogue each month ;) |
| [22:04:38] | stuartm: | I guess what we end up with depends on whatever people are willing to maintain, if it goes unmaintained we'll rip it out pretty quickly and the backend plugin stuff would allow third parties to add their own if desired |
| [22:05:20] | kormoc: | I'd skip soap personally |
| [22:05:22] | kormoc: | we have no use for it |
| [22:05:44] | kormoc: | XML and JSON are well established as standards and widely used and understood |
| [22:05:51] | stuartm: | anyway, back to the point, if we write this for the setup then it the rest of the backend can be migrated to use it pretty easily |
| [22:06:22] | kormoc: | SOAP might make sense for the backend. The trick will be in handling the persistent objects cleanly without leaking |
| [22:06:47] | kormoc: | but it might not be worth it, as SOAP is fundamentally different then the others |
| [22:06:51] | stuartm: | be > fe wants something very fast, minimal overhead which rules out xml, but xml is portable, lots of languages/tool kits can easily parse it |
| [22:07:07] | stuartm: | kormoc: good point |
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| [22:07:33] | stuartm: | just pulled some protocols out of the air ;) |
| [22:08:10] | kormoc: | protobuf is the new hotness. It's basically binary json with typing. Extremely light and extremely fast |
| [22:08:36] | iamlindoro: | NOIP |
| [22:08:41] | sphery: | stuartm: thanks for taking #8995 --saves me having to set things up to actually record (the Demo/Dummy tuner isn't working quite right since the changes to it, so I haven't been doing much recording on the dev box) |
| [22:08:41] | iamlindoro: | Nuppel Over IP |
| [22:08:51] | iamlindoro: | I hear Nuppel is the coolest |
| [22:08:51] | kormoc: | Ooh, goes well with NOSQL! |
| [22:09:18] | stuartm: | done correctly we don't need to limit it to just one – the protocol class recieves an object/struct and the various subclasses format that into whatever the protocol demands |
| [22:09:24] | sphery: | if you're talking about the backend setup protocol, fast and light is not really a requirement--only for the actual backend-to-backend-and-frontend protocol, right? |
| [22:09:37] | kormoc: | Aye, just saying that protobuf might just be the better one to target first |
| [22:10:21] | kormoc: | especially given that the bindings can use the compiled definitions for their management, thus keeping the protocol in sync automagically |
| [22:10:22] | stuartm: | sphery: we're talking both, if we write the flexible interface now then the rest of myth can be migrated to use it |
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| [22:11:14] | sphery: | If I get permission to work on an embedded DB approach, I'm planning to use protobuf for it, unless someone has any objections |
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| [22:11:32] | sphery: | so protobuf for all would be very nice |
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| [22:12:16] | stuartm: | no objections, though would that be a public api or just the backend <-> DB? |
| [22:12:17] | kormoc: | sphery, I think you just need to work on it |
| [22:12:28] | kormoc: | stuartm, both I'd say |
| [22:12:34] | kormoc: | least for now |
| [22:13:25] | cdev___: | I haven't had a chance to catchup on all the history/e-mails yet but... I've been sitting on a protocol/api framework for the past year that I think will meet all the requirements I'm seen so far. |
| [22:13:47] | stuartm: | kormoc: well ... it makes sense to me to just have one single protocol and one single host, allowing clients to continue direct DB access seems confusing when that communication can just as easily be relayed through the backend |
| [22:14:06] | cdev___: | I need to leave, but I will try and find the time and document the approach and send it out. |
| [22:14:32] | kormoc: | stuartm, I mean relay via the backend. Have a public API for the backend to pass raw data though for now |
| [22:15:03] | kormoc: | stuartm, eventually the goal would be to remove it and make it all pure 'api', but during the migration I think allowing a public db pass though makes sense |
| [22:15:30] | jya: | using svn merge with merge tracking for the first time with mythtv ; works beautifully |
| [22:15:30] | sphery: | stuartm: that would be ideal, though we'd still need a data-access approach for 3rd-party plugins (unless we put raw SQL into the backend protocol--which completely defeats the point of the design you're talking about, so I'm against direct SQL) |
| [22:15:40] | stuartm: | kormoc: ahh, yeah that's what I'm talking about for now, we can't go cold turkey on SQL |
| [22:16:15] | sphery: | I think we can do cold turkey on SQL |
| [22:16:30] | sphery: | not much difference doing it that way or "warm" turkey(?) |
| [22:16:36] | kormoc: | well |
| [22:16:40] | sphery: | for the internal stuff, at least |
| [22:16:48] | stuartm: | sphery: yeah? We'll it would be okay by me, I just thought we'd see some resistance from kormoc and xris |
| [22:17:07] | kormoc: | it's just the amount of API stuff that would need to get written |
| [22:17:10] | sphery: | I think we can make them happy... I just have to actually work on it so I can show them. :) |
| [22:17:25] | kormoc: | sphery, don't underestimate the complexity of some of the search queries |
| [22:17:43] | kormoc: | it's kinda hard to write a flexable api to handle that |
| [22:17:53] | sphery: | well, I guess I'll find out how wrong I am when I start working on it |
| [22:18:19] | kormoc: | I'm always up to be proven wrong ;) |
| [22:18:45] | kormoc: | stuartm, I'm all for it, I just don't see it happening so rapidly, but hey, let's give it a go |
| [22:21:36] | stuartm: | we need to be careful about what we target for the next release, I can see the feature list expanding way beyond what we're able to manage in the time frame |
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| [22:36:40] | stuartm: | so I just read up on REST and as always I'm impressed at the ability of hype to talk up a very basic, even fundamental concepts as though they are something new and exciting |
| [22:37:08] | kormoc: | Aye |
| [22:37:08] | stuartm: | REST seems to describe every web application I've ever written, or for that many most websites |
| [22:37:12] | kormoc: | Exactly |
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| [22:37:40] | kormoc: | I was writing REST before it was REST You young whippersnappers |
| [22:37:49] | stuartm: | yup |
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| [23:09:01] | wagnerrp: | stuartm: you might want to talk to james barrett (jamesba) |
| [23:09:19] | wagnerrp: | apparently hes got some sort of extensive REST interface patched into mythtv |
| [23:09:46] | iamlindoro: | xris, kormoc, stuartm, any others: RC2 tarballs and md5sums are in my ~ on svn.mythtv.org, need a move to the web sync dir |
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| [23:10:33] | iamlindoro: | xris, RC2 announcement pushed to the web site, too, just need the sync to complete before pushing that |
| [23:16:23] | kormoc: | just the 6 files? |
| [23:16:37] | kormoc: | core, plugins and themes, right? |
| [23:16:49] | kormoc: | (synced btw) |
| [23:19:17] | iamlindoro: | right |
| [23:19:20] | iamlindoro: | and thanks |
| [23:20:09] | iamlindoro: | Heh, now do I push my luck and ask for a manually triggered sync with the OSUOSL guys again ;) |
| [23:20:39] | iamlindoro: | I actually think that the sync is coming up shortly, but can't recall when it is exactly |
| [23:20:52] | kormoc: | Heh, worth a shot |
| [23:21:34] | iamlindoro: | Hmm, 1 or 2 AM, according to my logs |
| [23:25:52] | iamlindoro: | k, sync to the ftp servers done |
| [23:26:10] | iamlindoro: | xris, announcement can go out whenever you can push it |
| [23:41:33] | kormoc is now known as kormoc_afk | |
| [23:48:21] | xris: | iamlindoro: pushed |
| [23:48:28] | iamlindoro: | xris, great, thanks a lot |
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