| Saturday, December 4th, 2010, 00:03 UTC | ||
| [00:03:00] | iamlindoro: | And really, it was the totally unconsulted nature of those kinds of decision which don't affect them or their code at all, combined with the running of the mouths that got me |
| [00:05:29] | iamlindoro: | Let xris hire his designer friend with SD money |
| [00:05:37] | iamlindoro: | That's how open source works |
| [00:06:22] | stuartm: | if I didn't know better I'd describe the current situation as a power grab by a small clique who know each other outside mythtv and want to reshape the project to best suit themselves |
| [00:09:23] | iamlindoro: | I'm sure it's not intended as one, since one or more of the primary drivers of the migration hasn't done much at all for myth in a very long time |
| [00:09:24] | stuartm: | the problem is that Xris and Beirdo probably believe that all this is in our best interests, they just have upset a few people in the process |
| [00:10:28] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: oh I know that's not the case, as I said 'if I didn't know better' |
| [00:10:50] | iamlindoro: | It's just typical MythTV Band-aid on sucking chest wound shit |
| [00:11:48] | stuartm: | the unfortunate thing is that those who have PMd me on the subject won't speak out publicly because they don't want a confrontation |
| [00:12:00] | iamlindoro: | Yes. It's a familiar dance to me |
| [00:12:31] | iamlindoro: | Get PMs, recognize group feeling similar frustrations, express frustrations, burn personal capital within the group, repeat |
| [00:12:57] | stuartm: | yup |
| [00:13:32] | iamlindoro: | Oh, whew, there's the answer-- dustybin in #mythtv-users saying he's going to develop themes |
| [00:13:34] | iamlindoro: | We're saved! |
| [00:13:49] | stuartm: | and all those unresolved issues will continue to fester :( |
| [00:14:26] | stuartm: | iamlindoro: heh, who knows, he could turn out to be an artistic genius? |
| [00:15:19] | iamlindoro: | Heh, well, he's got to be a genius at *something* |
| [00:15:43] | iamlindoro: | well... maybe |
| [00:17:18] | stuartm: | well I'm off to bed, the temperature is falling by the minute and it'll be warmer under the duvet |
| [00:18:05] | stuartm: | if the snow doesn't stop falling I'll be stuck in the house tomorrow so I might get some real MythTV work done |
| [00:18:25] | iamlindoro: | good night |
| [00:20:22] | stuartm: | or maybe that will be GBeeTV ... |
| [01:27:30] | Captain_Murdoch: | sphery, stuartm, iamlindoro, my understanding is exact as sphery stated at 18:58PM EST. themes will stay in MythTV/myththemes as long as a dev maintains them. if they are truly 3rd party themes such as Childish and MythBuntu, then we either decide to give those guys commit access or request that they host their theme elsewhere or we setup some way to pull in updates. I will insist it be that way. I don't want to push d |
| [01:27:30] | Captain_Murdoch: | evelopers to host their own themes or ones they maintain. that doesn't make sense. it also doesn't make sense for non-themers to be responsible for updating um-teen themes if something changes. That's part of the reason for wanting just a default in the official tarball. if core developers want to maintain a theme in the myththemes repo, more power to them, but people like to do things their own way, and I think it's b |
| [01:27:31] | Captain_Murdoch: | est if the other 20+ devs aren't in there touching those themes. Let the themer decide how to implement or not implement a new feature, not some non-themer core dev doing a search and replace in all the theme directories. |
| [01:27:36] | Captain_Murdoch: | sorry for the length. |
| [01:30:29] | iamlindoro: | Captain_Murdoch, Great, I hope it ends up being that way. I just don't want my themes in the official repository any more. I am completely soured on the whole thing, and let xris his his friend to write "default" |
| [01:30:37] | iamlindoro: | er hire his |
| [01:31:58] | iamlindoro: | Decisions are being made on the fly, without consultation, and those being made are bad decisions. I am to blame for thinking that producing cohesive work would ever be enough to make my themes acceptable to ship by default. |
| [01:32:18] | Captain_Murdoch: | part of the |
| [01:32:22] | Captain_Murdoch: | oops. |
| [01:32:33] | iamlindoro: | Clearly "looks ugly without metadata," even if that were true, trumps "incomplete and ugly under all circumstances |
| [01:32:34] | iamlindoro: | " |
| [01:32:44] | Captain_Murdoch: | part of the 'only ship a "default" theme in the tarballs' ends any of that. we'd have a default and all others would be on the theme download site. |
| [01:33:01] | Captain_Murdoch: | some people don't get blocks. ;) |
| [01:33:14] | Captain_Murdoch: | for all cases of get == understand. :) |
| [01:33:57] | iamlindoro: | Great, I look forward to the day we have this heralded default theme. Let xris hire someone to write it. |
| [01:36:10] | iamlindoro: | I think it's a fair point to say that if my work is considered bad enough that he would openly refer to it as looking bad, why in the world should I write default themes? You'd be crazy to let me. |
| [01:36:26] | knightr: | So we will have no way of translating those themes anymore? Stuart M had mentionned something about letting those themes come with translation but that means that translators will have to repeat doing the same strings over and over again... |
| [01:37:00] | Captain_Murdoch: | and I think that day is a few releases away at least, but if we can download themes with the downloader, there's not much need for a myththemes tarball at each release. need for the repo, yes, for the tarball, no. that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) |
| [01:37:13] | iamlindoro: | knightr, That's correct, the themestringtool will no longer apply to my themes |
| [01:37:41] | knightr: | Yep... I realized that... |
| [01:37:51] | Captain_Murdoch: | themestringtool can be modified to support the theme download site. any theme on the site could be translated. |
| [01:37:56] | knightr: | It will not work with all the other themes we force off the repo too... |
| [01:38:18] | Captain_Murdoch: | nobody is forcing themes off unless they are unmaintained. I'll fight that. |
| [01:39:27] | knightr: | Hmm, I thought that themers would have to host their themes just like iamlindoro is doing (for other reasons I believe which I understand...) |
| [01:41:17] | iamlindoro: | Captain_Murdoch, I have to go to my mother's birthday or she'll kill me-- and I'm gone all weekend. Maybe git will work by Monday, and things will all be cleared up. I just don't feel comfortable having my themes where they appear unwanted, and don't feel comfortable signing up to produce not one, but two, when my work to date is considered unacceptable |
| [01:42:09] | iamlindoro: | Captain_Murdoch, In a world where MythCenter > all of my work, then I am clearly not capable enough to provide the default for an out of the box install |
| [01:42:33] | knightr: | iamlindoro, your themes are liked by quite a few people, trust me... I follow threads on forums and trush me people really seems to like them a lot... |
| [01:43:04] | knightr: | s/forums/quite a few forums |
| [01:44:36] | Captain_Murdoch: | what themers? we have childish and mythbuntu and metallurgy left in myththemes now. so out of the 5 original, 3 were by core devs. above I stated that we either give Childish and Mythbuntu authors access to update that repo or we ask them to host them (or possibly put them on MythTV-Themes organization's repo if we wanted to offer a non-core-dev repo for "3rd party" themes) |
| [01:44:39] | iamlindoro: | knightr, Thanks-- I don't need reassurance, I am happy with them-- but I put them in our source because I wanted to improve myth and help the impression that MythTV needs to be ugly... But as Captain_Murdoch says, they're available from the theme downloader on both trunk and .24-fixes, so they're accessible, so there remains no reason to keep them in MythTV's repository |
| [01:45:03] | Captain_Murdoch: | iamlindoro, you're misquoting me on that. don't put words into my mouth when I'm on your side. |
| [01:45:24] | iamlindoro: | Captain_Murdoch, Only thing I'm quoting you on is that they're available from the downloader |
| [01:45:40] | iamlindoro: | I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or imply a position |
| [01:45:42] | Captain_Murdoch: | ", so there remains no reason to keep them in MythTV's repository" |
| [01:45:46] | iamlindoro: | That part is mine :) |
| [01:45:50] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, sorry, I guess I misread... |
| [01:45:51] | iamlindoro: | I should have been more clear |
| [01:45:51] | Captain_Murdoch: | :) ok, thanks. |
| [01:46:20] | sphery: | iamlindoro: Your themes are definitely not less than MythCenter* |
| [01:46:32] | sphery: | enjoy the birthday party |
| [01:46:41] | iamlindoro: | Captain_Murdoch, I was already considering removing them, it's the casual stupid remarks about why it's unacceptable as a default that sealed the deal |
| [01:46:55] | Captain_Murdoch: | MythCenter is old old and in the grand plan, it would also get moved to MythTV/myththemes if we have a new default. |
| [01:46:58] | iamlindoro: | I had mentioned to both you at sphery before any of that came up that I was thinking to just remove them |
| [01:47:25] | iamlindoro: | They just helped me make the decision |
| [01:47:26] | sphery: | FWIW, if anyone makes any suggestion that MythCenter* either become the default or be used as a template for creating new default* themes, I am /very/ much opposed to the idea. |
| [01:47:35] | Captain_Murdoch: | iamlindoro, yeah, and I don't have issues with it. saddened by it, but not blaming. |
| [01:47:49] | Captain_Murdoch: | It keeps people from messing with your stuff. :) |
| [01:48:17] | iamlindoro: | Captain_Murdoch, I just don't see what good they would be doing there-- they're never going to be defaults, and the more public they are the more I have to put up with stupid remarks about them |
| [01:48:36] | sphery: | and, IMHO, keeps users from believing they "own" your themes (just because they're in a "community" repo) and have a say in what goes in them |
| [01:48:44] | Captain_Murdoch: | enjoy your party, forget about ungrateful users and others who prefer still prefer CGA |
| [01:49:08] | sphery: | and remember--we love you and your themes (and appreciate all your work on mythtv :) |
| [01:49:14] | iamlindoro: | I will admit I didn't consider the translation aspect |
| [01:49:16] | Captain_Murdoch: | sphery, yes. they can't complain to me/you to "fix" Arclight. :) |
| [01:49:30] | sphery: | right--or complain on the list |
| [01:49:36] | Captain_Murdoch: | iamlindoro, translation isn't an issue. themestringtool can get the xml from the theme download site. |
| [01:49:43] | Captain_Murdoch: | it has been thought of already. |
| [01:50:02] | iamlindoro: | I will consider setting up a git repository to allow push/pull/however it is supposed to work, but I would pretty much count me out for writing a default theme |
| [01:50:13] | Captain_Murdoch: | way back when I put up the first 3rd party themes and we needed to translate their descriptions. |
| [01:50:13] | sphery: | I'm glad someone thought of themestringtool--I also forgot about that.... (I know, I'm a typical American who forgets about the rest of the world.) |
| [01:50:27] | iamlindoro: | Captain_Murdoch, Very cool |
| [01:50:33] | sphery: | iamlindoro: could even do an SVN repo... :) |
| [01:50:39] | ** iamlindoro goes to try to get to the party on-time ;) ** | |
| [01:50:40] | Captain_Murdoch: | CVS! |
| [01:50:45] | sphery: | RCS! |
| [01:50:56] | Captain_Murdoch: | give everyone ssh access for that one. ;) |
| [01:50:58] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, might have been nice to tell Kenni and I about it though, I know for one I was beginning to be concerned and pretty sure Kenni would if he was still awake... |
| [01:51:07] | natanojl (natanojl!~jonatan@c83-252-237-63.bredband.comhem.se) has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | |
| [01:51:24] | Captain_Murdoch: | knightr, there was no plan to remove anything from our repos, so no notice needed IMHO. |
| [01:52:28] | Captain_Murdoch: | themestringtool might need a tweaking for directories or something now, but it should work as always for themes in our repos. |
| [01:53:28] | Captain_Murdoch: | it will need tweaking to support 3rd party themes which will be available on the download site. there are at least 6–8 of those I believe. whether we actually want to translate all of those is another story. big moving target... |
| [01:54:05] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, would be nice to find something better than the removal of permissions eventually too (to avoid having it parse files it shouldn't)... That's one ugly patch imho... |
| [01:54:33] | Captain_Murdoch: | I admittedly haven't looked at the code. I just have thought about it needing mods for themes on the download site that weren't in our repo. |
| [01:55:39] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, that's done outside, I guess the best thing would be to find a way to specify exclusions (a la .ignore files...) or something like that... |
| [01:57:01] | Captain_Murdoch: | I'll have to look at it sometime well before 0.25. :) actually need to get more automation on the theme downloader side. ability to fetch from remote repos, handle extracting/repackaging a user-uploaded file, etc.. |
| [01:57:12] | knightr: | (but for now only adjustments to make it work would be important... Kenni and I had plan to re-run it soon because there was a problem with what was extracted for 0.24...) |
| [01:57:50] | knightr: | but don't worry, we should be able to make those adjustements hourselves... |
| [01:58:05] | knightr: | s/hourselves/ourselves... |
| [01:58:50] | knightr: | (maybe not the one to handle talking to the theme downloader site but the ones to make it work for now...) |
| [01:58:58] | knightr: | s/one/ones... |
| [03:01:13] | iamlindoro: | I want to clarify that while I am thrilled to hear that Captain_Murdoch has no intention of letting anyone push themes out of our repository, that that was distinctly *not* the way I took it from those pushing the git migration |
| [03:01:35] | iamlindoro: | And that's just way too volatile/uncertain an environment for me to feel safe leaving my work |
| [03:03:58] | iamlindoro: | But I also don't want to go around in circles again, so I'm happy to leave it as it is ;) |
| [03:04:32] | iamlindoro: | Just wanted to clarfiy my understanding ;) |
| [03:06:50] | Captain_Murdoch: | as long as there's a tarball or repo I can pull a themer's theme from, or they upload it to the (eventual) theme upload site, then I don't mind where they host it. :) |
| [03:07:05] | Captain_Murdoch: | if people can have private branches in our repo, then they can have themes in our repo. |
| [03:07:09] | Captain_Murdoch: | s/people/devs/ |
| [03:42:05] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, I can't make any promises but I'll try to see if I could make the modifications to themestringtool myself (to deal with the theme downloader). I certainly can't make any promises because I am not familiar with the libs used and might not have the necessary spare time to lean about them in the coming months but I'll try... |
| [03:42:31] | knightr: | (after all I am actually a programmer and not a translator... :) ) |
| [03:44:09] | Captain_Murdoch: | knightr, I will have a script which imports a theme and packages it up for the download site. we could easily have that generate a text file of the translatable strings in a theme's xml. that could be downloaded by the themestringtool |
| [03:45:38] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, yes, I guess that could work... The only thing left would be to format it to look like source code (like themestringtool currently does...) |
| [03:47:15] | Captain_Murdoch: | something like this? char *string0000 = "the first string we found"; |
| [03:47:57] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, nope.;. something like ThemeUI::tr("The first string we found"); |
| [03:48:12] | Captain_Murdoch: | ah. seems easy enough. |
| [03:48:24] | knightr: | It mimicks a call to tr() (Qt call for translation) so that lupdate extracts it... |
| [03:48:27] | knightr: | Yep... |
| [03:49:03] | knightr: | Your file wouldn't need to have it though, that could easily be done by themestringtool... |
| [03:50:51] | knightr: | It looks like somebody initially wanted themestring tool to produce a Qt translation file (.ts) but decided to do that instead (probably to avoid having problem when/if the .ts file format (Qt translation files) changed... |
| [03:51:29] | Captain_Murdoch: | ok,got to get my script written first. I have one that packages themes from a check-ed out svn directory. need to make itso that it can take a tarball or location of a svn or git repo and repackage a theme forthe download site. |
| [03:54:13] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, ok... BTW, the main issue I can see is the embedded \n in the strings... They would probably have to be converted to \\n like themestringtool does to be easily parsable... |
| [03:54:56] | Captain_Murdoch: | ok, I'll try to keep that in mind. I'll talk with one of you guys when I get to that point. |
| [03:55:42] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, thanks! |
| [03:58:08] | knightr: | (there will be another problem with non-significant spaces which should be removed (they are only used to make the text more readable in the theme) but we'll see how we deal with them when you'll have something we can play with... Thanks! |
| [04:18:45] | knightr: | Does http://themes.mythtv.org/themes/repository/trunk/themes.zip ring any bell? |
| [04:23:20] | Captain_Murdoch: | what about it? |
| [04:23:51] | Captain_Murdoch: | that's the zip file containing the themeinfo.xml files and preview images for all the downloadable themes. |
| [04:36:16] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, sorry was afk, the script that calls themestringtool already unzip this to permit the translation of the themes description (wasn't aware of that, I hadn't noticed that commit) I guess at least as a temporary measure we could do the same thing if a similar file was put on the site that contained all the themes the themes sites contains... |
| [04:37:15] | knightr: | only problem with this approach is that while we don't call that script that frequently users have it too and maybe some of them could abuse and call it too frequently (if that's possible...) |
| [04:37:47] | Captain_Murdoch: | currently we have something like this: http://themes.mythtv.org/themes/repository/tr . . . hemeinfo.xml |
| [04:38:10] | Captain_Murdoch: | we could easily add a http://themes.mythtv.org/themes/repository/tr . . . estrings.cpp or similar |
| [04:39:54] | knightr: | otherwise there is something else your script would need to do, split what it extract per plugin (otherwise the translators will have to translate the same text multiple times if we don't merge the theme strings for the mythvideo related sceen with the mythvideo translation file for example... |
| [04:41:24] | knightr: | that's how it used to be in the past and that was changed because it had created something like 500+ redondant string which the translators had to translate multiple times (since one copy of the text was in the mythfrontend translation file and the other in the related plugin...) |
| [04:44:53] | Captain_Murdoch: | the tool can consolidate and strip out redundant strings out of the files. |
| [04:45:27] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, not if they are not put in the right file.. |
| [04:47:06] | Captain_Murdoch: | yeah, I'm just talking duplicates within the various themes, not between themes and plugins, etc.. is there a concept of a global locationthat's searched afterwards when qt does the translation at runtime? |
| [04:47:23] | knightr: | When we extract the (for example) MythVideo related stuff from the source code the same string has a very big chance of also being in the related XML file for the theme (video-ui.xml I think) and the only way to have it consolidate is to merge in in the same translation file) |
| [04:48:31] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, from the standpoint of doing the lookup in the code, it's doesn't matter where the text comes from... |
| [04:49:05] | knightr: | The problem is that if we don't merge in the same translation file (one for the frontend and one per plugin) the translators will have to translate in both... |
| [04:50:22] | knightr: | (because they won't really know it has been translated, not because it's actually needed to get a translation since it might find it in another translation file if the context AND (if present) disambiguation string is the same... |
| [04:53:08] | knightr: | BTW, since we actually have the download URLs in http://themes.mythtv.org/themes/repository/trunk/themes.zip we could download the themes from them and still use the old themestringtool functionality, the only thing that would get a tad more complex is the script that calls themestringtool (if we continue like that it will eventually contain more lines than themestringtool itself...) |
| [04:53:10] | knightr: | :) |
| [04:58:13] | Captain_Murdoch: | but downloading each zip every time you run the tool is slow. it would be quicker to just download the xml or even a single xml file per theme. /me needs to stop chatting so he can get some coding in. |
| [04:58:46] | Captain_Murdoch: | not directed at you either,I'vehad 4–5 other windows open tonight and am notgetting anything done. :| |
| [05:00:48] | Captain_Murdoch: | and as soon as i say that, the baby wakes up. so tonight is shot. :) |
| [05:01:06] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, yep I agree but you will end up duplicating what we already have (unless you reuse it and make it part of your script). Good night CM, I understand and anyway I have to go sleep too, it's getting late here... |
| [05:02:25] | knightr: | :( If your nickname comes from where I think it does you could try singing him/her one of those songs HM Murdoch is famous for... :) |
| [05:04:48] | knightr: | Captain_Murdoch, maybe rsync the file (I haven't used that tool much but I understand it could help) instead of something like a wget... |
| [05:04:52] | knightr: | Good night! |
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