| Wednesday, August 20th, 2014, 00:00 UTC | ||
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| [03:18:37] | xris: | weird, mfdb keeps adding some not-really-there channels back into my lineup |
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| [08:12:40] | stuartm: | mfdb is only going to add what SD tells it about |
| [08:13:58] | stuartm: | xris: is this a digital or analogue source? For digital channels, at least outside the US, we no longer allow mfdb to insert channels since it doesn't have the necessary tuning data |
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| [09:11:01] | xris: | stuartm: I'm at least a year out of date... but it'd be all-digital. not actually sure what the source would be, though |
| [09:11:28] | xris: | I don't even know where the data would come from — none of my SD lineups have that xmltvid in them |
| [09:13:14] | stuartm: | I'd check the raw feed from sd, it might not appear in the web UI but the only place it can be coming from is SD? |
| [09:13:43] | xris: | yeah, too lazy. :) I just marked the channel as invisible |
| [09:14:44] | xris: | I have most of my SD channels disabled (limited cable these days) but it's possible the datadirect feed doesn't behave as expected — Gracenote hasn't exactly handled their acquisition of TMS very well |
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| [09:23:42] | xris: | ok, time to sleep. |
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| [11:12:15] | niobos: | I'm trying to understand the whole chanid/channum/callsign history and its interactions with EPG and scheduling. |
| [11:12:28] | niobos: | If I understand things correctly (at least for 0.27): |
| [11:12:36] | niobos: | channum is only used to order the EPG and to allow direct zapping in LiveTV mode. Correct? |
| [11:12:48] | niobos: | callsign is only used to merge (if equal) multiple EGP-lines, and in "this channel" rules. Correct? |
| [11:12:58] | niobos: | EPG is kept per channel, not per callsign. Correct? |
| [11:13:05] | niobos: | How does the visible-flag interact? Are channels simply not shown in the EGP, but still used for recording? |
| [11:13:11] | niobos: | Same for channels without a channum: are they still used for recording? |
| [11:14:42] | niobos: | If the above is correct: it seems to make sense to give "Bla" and "Bla +1" (the 1h timeshifted version) the same callsign? |
| [11:15:03] | niobos: | and same for SD and HD versions of the same channel (and use the HDTV-flag in EPG to differentiate, if needed)? |
| [11:19:33] | stuartm: | niobos: no, +1 channels should not have the same callsign, that would cause them to be treated as the same channel for scheduling purposes and they are not the same |
| [11:19:47] | stuartm: | SD/HD yes, those are the same |
| [11:20:24] | niobos: | stuartm: I'm confused: if EPG is kept per chanid (and not per callsign), why is scheduling then done per callsign? |
| [11:20:27] | stuartm: | visible flag causes channels to be completely ignored, both for scheduling and in the guide |
| [11:21:15] | stuartm: | niobos: many users combine sources of TV, e.g. Terrestrial and Satellite which carry some of the same channels |
| [11:22:01] | niobos: | as do I |
| [11:22:44] | niobos: | so in that case, I only need 1 channel (chanid) per callsign to have EPG-data? |
| [11:22:52] | stuartm: | no |
| [11:23:16] | stuartm: | channels are per source, if a channel appears on two different sources it has to be included twice |
| [11:23:16] | niobos: | now I'm even more confused... |
| [11:23:44] | niobos: | OK, I understand that. |
| [11:25:03] | stuartm: | but give them the same callsign and they'll be treated as the same channel by the scheduler, so the scheduler knows that even if programme A on one of the channels has a different description on the other channel it's still the same programme |
| [11:25:49] | stuartm: | it's a bit more complicated than that, there are some optimisations the scheduler makes using that information |
| [11:26:12] | niobos: | so it's OK to have one of the two channels (chanid) without EPG? |
| [11:27:32] | niobos: | or: where in the code can I find these things, so I can figure this out myself |
| [11:28:16] | stuartm: | no, because although the scheduler will treat two channels with the same callsign as a single channel, it won't assume that a channel without guide data is actually active – some channels only broadcast part-time on a platform |
| [11:29:06] | niobos: | ok, and what about similar, but not identical EPGs? Say source1 says news start at 19:00; but source2 says it starts at 18:59? |
| [11:30:19] | niobos: | or 1 source says it's "News" all day, and the other source has it split up in "Economic", "Political", ... timeslots (or whatever) |
| [11:31:38] | stuartm: | in the former case they should still be treated as the same, there's some flexibility built in on starttime, the latter case can be a problem but only if you record the news (most people don't, preferring to catch it live or read it online) |
| [11:32:39] | stuartm: | niobos: you don't _have_ to alter the callsigns, sometimes it improves the scheduling decisions but you could just wait to see how well it works first before making any changes |
| [11:33:05] | stuartm: | I think it's fair to say that most people don't bother |
| [11:33:09] | niobos: | stuartm: I know, but I'm a perfectionist... can't help it |
| [11:33:28] | niobos: | I guess most (all?) is in here somewhere? mythtv / programs / mythbackend / scheduler.cpp |
| [11:33:35] | stuartm: | some, like me match up the channum and callsign, the channum is more important for a tidy/organised guide |
| [11:34:15] | niobos: | I'm in the process of (re)numbering my channels |
| [11:34:33] | stuartm: | niobos: pretty much all of the scheduling logic is in there yes, some bits concerning programme matching are in libs/libmyth/programinfo.cpp & .h |
| [11:34:44] | niobos: | so I was confused: should I give them the same channum AND the same callsign, or different channums and same callsign, OR ... |
| [11:35:22] | niobos: | OK, I'll read the code. 5000+ lines, looks like a good read |
| [11:35:31] | stuartm: | niobos: don't give the SD and HD versions the same channel number, although that should work fine it currently doesn't and it makes it harder to get to the HD version in livetv by entering the number alone |
| [11:36:34] | niobos: | on a different but related note: what exactly does the useonairguide do? Does it enable EIT data to populate the EPG for this channel? Or does it instruct the EIT-scanner to tune to this channel (multiplex) to get data, potentially for different channels as well? |
| [11:37:03] | niobos: | (especially in the AEIT-case) |
| [11:37:06] | stuartm: | I use the non-number based notation 1_2 for the HD version of channel 1 which is a pain, but there's some tuning code that incorrectly uses the channum for recordings :( |
| [11:37:47] | stuartm: | niobos: it enables collection of EIT for that channel, the actual data may be on another channel |
| [11:37:51] | niobos: | ah, interesting: so giving channels no channum might interfere with recording? |
| [11:38:15] | niobos: | and what determines what channels are scanned for EIT data (potentially for other channels)? |
| [11:38:28] | stuartm: | niobos: yes, it may, as I noted that's a bug but not one I've got around to fixing yet |
| [11:39:20] | niobos: | stuartm: a documented bug is the first step |
| [11:39:37] | stuartm: | niobos: that's tricky, I don't believe there's any logic currently to only look at specific channels for data, instead it looks at all channels in turn and grabs whatever data is available |
| [11:40:23] | niobos: | all channels? or all channels with useonairguide set? Because I'm trying to minimize waste, I don't need/want the backend to waste time tuning to channels I don't want EIT for |
| [11:40:25] | stuartm: | so it might tune 100 channels even if only 1 carries the data for the whole lot |
| [11:40:42] | stuartm: | niobos: all channels with useonairguide set |
| [11:40:46] | niobos: | ok, makes sense |
| [11:41:09] | niobos: | so useonairguide does both: select the channels to tune to for EIT-data; and allow EIT-data to be used for EPG |
| [11:41:09] | stuartm: | if the one channel which carries data for the rest doesn't have useonairguide set then you get no data at all |
| [11:41:18] | stuartm: | correct |
| [11:41:33] | niobos: | I suppose combining XMLTV EPG with EIT is not a good idea? |
| [11:41:42] | stuartm: | not for the same channel |
| [11:41:48] | niobos: | or does it magically merge things together? |
| [11:41:52] | niobos: | ok |
| [11:42:11] | niobos: | Ok, thanks a lot. I'll go and have my 5000-line reading marathon |
| [11:42:30] | stuartm: | it tries to merge, but can't always make the right decision and that causes chaos |
| [11:42:42] | stuartm: | it's much better to stick with one or the other |
| [11:43:32] | stuartm: | you can use both on the same source, but not the same channel – I prefer xmltv for most channels, but on radio/news channels I let it use the EIT instead |
| [11:43:45] | niobos: | another thing which pops up: If I have 2 channels which are "the same", but only 1 carries EIT-EPG, I'd need to "duplicate" that somehow to allow the scheduler to use the second channel, correct? |
| [11:44:07] | stuartm: | correct |
| [11:44:15] | niobos: | is there a recommended way to do so? |
| [11:44:35] | niobos: | Should I grab EIT myself, or should I directly alter the SQL database? |
| [11:44:48] | stuartm: | there has been some talk about allowing 'cross carrying' of EIT data, so that we can copy it from the channel which does provide it to the one that doesn't, but that's not happened yet |
| [11:45:22] | niobos: | grabbing EIT to XMLTV, and importing that looks clean, but I'll interfere with mythtv's EIT scanner |
| [11:45:36] | niobos: | doing it in SQL is efficient, but violates a couple of layers |
| [11:45:58] | stuartm: | niobos: we recommend not writing directly, there's a lot of metadata derived from the raw guide which you may end up not inserting and any schema changes may break your script |
| [11:46:28] | niobos: | whay would be the recommended way to do this? |
| [11:46:31] | stuartm: | niobos: there are some xmltv scripts to grab and insert EIT |
| [11:46:42] | stuartm: | I'd look at those |
| [11:47:01] | niobos: | Is there some means to request the backend to free up a tuner for my own EIT-scan? |
| [11:48:43] | niobos: | do you have any pointers to these EIT-to-XMLTV tools? my Google-foo is failing me |
| [11:48:51] | stuartm: | there's an option to not use that tuner for the active EIT scan (mythtv-setup > Capture Cards > Card #1 > Recording Options) |
| [11:48:51] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/1 ** | |
| [11:49:30] | stuartm: | there's a second setting there to only open the card on-demand, as it's needed for recording and not to 'lock' it on startup |
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| [11:50:25] | niobos: | but when EIT-scanning is in use, I guess that the backend will simply round-robin over all channels permanently? |
| [11:50:51] | niobos: | I only have 1 capture card, so I'd need to time-share between the backend's EITscanner and the external one |
| [11:51:01] | niobos: | (well, 1 capture card for this purpose) |
| [11:51:11] | stuartm: | correct, when it's not recording or in live tv it's permanently scanning for EIT updates |
| [11:52:07] | niobos: | so I'd either need a way to ask the backend to stop that for a while; or I'd need to do the full eit-scanning myself |
| [11:52:29] | niobos: | (and not only for the channels that need "cross carrying" |
| [11:52:49] | stuartm: | can't find the reference to the EIT xmltv grabber, I'd check our wiki or try asking in here later when someone who does know the answer may be around |
| [11:53:11] | stuartm: | I'm not the resident expert on these things any more :) |
| [11:53:32] | niobos: | I'll be able to get the EIT-to-XMLTV part working somehow |
| [11:53:40] | niobos: | I'm a bit more worried about time-sharing with mythtv |
| [11:54:57] | niobos: | and what about: directly querying the database via SQL, but turning that into XMLTV and re-importing that? |
| [11:55:10] | niobos: | that will still break on schema changes, but not as violently |
| [11:55:27] | stuartm: | there's this one but I'm not sure if it's what would be currently recommended – http://bryars.eu/projects/tv_grab_dvb/ |
| [11:55:52] | niobos: | quote: This project isn’t maintained anymore |
| [11:56:03] | niobos: | but it's a start |
| [11:56:05] | niobos: | thanks |
| [11:56:30] | stuartm: | niobos: you may get away with that one, all you need to do is ensure that all connected tables get updated too – person/credit info |
| [11:58:02] | niobos: | I think I'll just strip the person/credit info. I'm already glad if time, title, subtitle, description & episode would be there |
| [11:58:34] | niobos: | I still have to find the first EIT-data that is this detailed |
| [11:59:50] | niobos: | on second thought: why do I need to update the connected tables? If I SELECT the "good" channel, turn that into XMLTV, and use mythfilldatabase --file to re-import that for the "bad" channel? |
| [12:00:09] | niobos: | I would assume that mythfilldatabase would update all tables |
| [12:10:49] | stuartm: | niobos: yes it would, I was referring to the direct insertion approach |
| [12:11:37] | stuartm: | sorry, I need to go back to work now |
| [12:24:31] | niobos: | stuartm: np, thanks a lot |
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| [14:20:14] | sphery: | niobos: In short, channel number is used only for directly tuning a channel in Live TV and EPG ordering (so if you have multiple channels with the same channel number, and you type that channel number in Live TV you get one of them, but you can't control which) |
| [14:20:39] | sphery: | so use different channel numbers to allow choosing which channel to tune in Live TV |
| [14:21:13] | sphery: | call sign is used for scheduling when applying the "this channel" filter--i.e. if you enable that filter, it will consider all channels with the same call sign to be "this channel" |
| [14:21:54] | sphery: | so if you want recording rules to be able to specify which particular channel to consider for a recording using "this channel" filter, you must have different call signs |
| [14:22:20] | sphery: | And the only way to "merge" multiple channels into one in the EPG is by having /both/ the call sign and channel number identical |
| [14:22:57] | sphery: | A not visible channel is one that will never be used for recording and will not show up in the EPG, but can still be tuned for Live TV |
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| [14:23:35] | sphery: | and if you really don't want the channel, your best bet is to either delete it or--at minimum--make it not visible and disable guide data for it |
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| [14:24:31] | sphery: | note that EIT is enabled on both a per-channel basis (saying to use EIT on that channel) and a per-video-source basis (saying whether or not to even enable EIT for the group of channels in that video source) |
| [14:26:03] | sphery: | and, yes, the preferred solution for duplicating EIT data across multiple channels is to do so with an EIT grabber that outputs XMLTV and then importing that XMLTV for the other channel (on which EIT has been disabled by unsetting "useonairguide") using mythfilldatabase |
| [14:26:31] | sphery: | and you can tell MythTV "I'm going to use a tuner for a while, and you can't use it while I am" with the LOCK_TUNER protocol command |
| [14:27:18] | sphery: | though at this point I'm wondering, if you only have one capture card, is there really any reason for you to put listings data in "the other" channel with the same content? |
| [14:27:47] | sphery: | meaning if you can record from the one that actually carries EIT, why would you want to record from a different channel (that doesn't carry EIT data) that has the exact same content? |
| [14:29:03] | sphery: | and, FWIW, trimming your channel list has huge benefits for scheduling performance and efficiency (i.e. can actually make multirec--recording from multiple channels on the same multiplex--more likely to be possible by limiting the number of mux'es used) |
| [14:30:44] | sphery: | (unless you happen to have a very lucky configuration where those channel copies line up perfectly on other mux'es where other shows not available on the original channel's mux are planned to record--but I'd venture you're more likely to have inefficiencies, rather than benefits, in including the copies) |
| [14:31:07] | sphery: | s/In short/In not as short as I planned/ |
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| [15:25:45] | stuartm: | unfortunately there's still bits of code in the recorder which invoke GetChannelFromChanNum() which is a) Completely flawed and b) A f***king awful waste of resources and time |
| [15:27:14] | stuartm: | so when I'm not busy with upnp and webfrontend stuff I intend re-writing it to pass around a ChannelInfo object throughout instead of various fragments of the data so that it ends up having to hit the channel table a couple of dozen times for each channel change/recording |
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| [15:32:19] | niobos: | sphery: I have 3 tuner cards: one DVB-T, and 2 DVB-S cards. But the 2nd DVB-S does not have access to all satellites. So to scan EIT data, I need my first (i.e. most versatile) DVB-S tuner. And I do want to duplicate, because I hope that the recording can be scheduled on the 2nd DVB-S |
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| [15:33:42] | niobos: | leaving the 1st available for livetv/last-minute recordings/other stuff |
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| [15:35:23] | niobos: | or more concrete: I receive EIT on channel X on Hotbird-13.0E (DVB-S tuner 1 only), I have the same channel X on Astra-19.2E (both tuners can receive this) without EIT |
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| [15:35:39] | niobos: | I'd like to cross-populate the EIT to 19.2E to "free up" tuner 1 |
| [15:36:31] | niobos: | sphery: and also: thanks for the very long and clear explanation above |
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| [17:06:33] | niobos: | exit |
| [17:07:17] | ** niobos realizes that there is no "focus follows eyes", only "focus follows mouse" ** | |
| [17:17:03] | niobos: | sphery: about the LOCK_TUNER: is there an easy way to find out when the next schedulede event would be on a specific tuner (i.e. by when I should release the tuner to avoid potential loss of recordings) |
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| [18:17:55] | sphery: | niobos: there are other commands to get pending recordings and to get scheduled recordings |
| [18:18:23] | sphery: | I recommend using the Python bindings ( http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Python_Bindings ) to write your script |
| [18:19:22] | ** rhollan is happy with his i3–4010U NUC ** | |
| [18:19:43] | sphery: | so, for example, you can use MythBE's lockTuner command ( http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/0.25_Python_Bindin . . . dlers#MythBE ), but note that it will only lock the tuner until the script itself exits (so keep the python script process running until you're done with the tuner) |
| [18:20:39] | sphery: | niobos: and you can use MythBE's getPendingRecordings or getScheduledRecordings or (possibly better) getUpcomingRecordings (since that's filtered for only those that will record) |
| [18:22:32] | sphery: | there's also getRecorderList and getFreeRecorderList |
| [18:24:19] | sphery: | basically the python bindings provide a more-user-friendly interface to the MythTV protocol and guarantee that they will be updated for changes to the protocol |
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| [18:46:41] | niobos: | how often (if at all) do you rescan DVB multiplexes? Is it wise to keep "will never use" channels stowed away at high numbers and visible=0 to avoid littering your lineup with "new" channels? |
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| [20:19:25] | justinh: | ROFL. My wife just inadvertently found a mythtv feature I never knew existed |
| [20:20:08] | justinh: | in the watch recordings screen, she'd accidentally pressed Rewind.. and the recording groups view changed. I had NO idea you could do that |
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