Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Wednesday, February 13th, 2013, 00:20 UTC

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wagnerrp:

how would another computer not have enough free sata ports?

[00:25:42]

wagnerrp:

a PII would have no sata ports, meaning you would be using all controller cards

[00:25:54]

wagnerrp:

controller cards that could just as easily be shifted into another system

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[01:26:19]

sphery:

jpabq_: no udev rules for mine--since I'm only using the digital side, it's identical to my pcHDTV HD-3000's as far as MythTV is concerned, so I don't care which card gets which device number

[01:26:28]

** sphery got lazy :) **

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[04:42:42]

** J-e-f-f-A is studying Python ... Don't know what took him so long – so far it has a lot of similarities to Basic. ;-) **

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[05:19:08]

** J-e-f-f-A thinks he can pick this up relatively quickly... a few 'twists' here and there, but looks pretty straightforward... ;-) **

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[05:29:41]

ashes:

hello

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[05:31:02]

J-e-f-f-A:

wassup?

[05:31:49]

ashes:

i'm wondering what my options are

[05:32:27]

ashes:

my family doesn't have cable tv. we use netflix, rent dvd's, and download whatever else we can't find. there are young children, like 5 years old too

[05:32:39]

ashes:

so, netflix doesn't have parental controls

[05:32:52]

ashes:

neither does upnp

[05:32:55]

J-e-f-f-A:

Neither does Myth, and there's no Netflix in Linux.

[05:33:28]

ashes:

i saw an mythflix, or soemthing, from ubuntu

[05:33:33]

J-e-f-f-A:

MythTV is designed to be a PVR, so you must have some live source – OTA, Cable, Satellite, etc. Also regarding d/ls – see the topic.

[05:34:26]

J-e-f-f-A:

[well you don't necessarily *must* have live sources, but it defeats the purpose of using MythTV, which it's main design is a PVR]

[05:35:26]

J-e-f-f-A:

humm... regarding 'smolt' data – I wonder why my mountpoints show up as "WITHHELD" in the report – is that on purpose? ;-)

[05:36:56]

J-e-f-f-A:

ashes: iirc, mythflix just lets you manage your Netflix DVD queue, not play Netflix. There is no player for Netflix on Linux due to DRM ... And will never be, unfortunately.

[05:37:54]

J-e-f-f-A:

ashes: For what you're looking for, XBMC is probably more appropriate.

[05:38:20]

ashes:

hmm

[05:42:32]

J-e-f-f-A:

Netflix on my BluRay player has a selection for 'Everything' or 'Kids only', but no 'password' for the 'Everything' IIRC (unless you can set it in the menus – I haven't checked)

[05:43:10]

ashes:

there's no way to configure netflix apps to go directly to the kids stuff

[05:43:17]

ashes:

or lock them in there

[05:43:50]

J-e-f-f-A:

ashes: I don't know – and it would vary per device implementation if there were. I have an LG BluRay player myself.

[05:44:10]

ashes:

we use wii, xbox360, and android

[05:45:14]

J-e-f-f-A:

I currently only share Android with you for Netflix, and it's 'wide open', as you know. Perhaps a feature request to Netflix is in order?

[05:45:37]

ashes:

ya

[05:45:55]

ashes:

a lot of this sort of thing doesn't have parental controls

[05:46:12]

J-e-f-f-A:

NF on Windoze doesn't have any parental controls either.

[05:46:19]

ashes:

i bought android tablets for them designed for children. white list web browser, locked apps, etc

[05:46:53]

ashes:

but adding netflix to their list of approved apps is a problem

[05:47:06]

J-e-f-f-A:

If NF was open-source, I'd say "roll your own", but since it's closed-source and DRM locked, that ain't gonna happen. :-(

[05:47:09]

ashes:

even pg13 movies aren't always great for a 5 year old

[05:47:23]

J-e-f-f-A:

Yep, that's why they're PG*13* ;-)

[05:48:27]

J-e-f-f-A:

... And many of today's "R" rated movies would have been rated "X" when I was their age...

[05:48:40]

ashes:

ya

[05:50:28]

ashes:

there is a lot of good stuff, like spinlets tv, for kids (a web site)

[05:50:51]

ashes:

they have bunches of free tv shows

[05:51:43]

J-e-f-f-A:

heh, my kid is 22 and no grand-kids yet [thank God!], so I'm not 'in the know' about web-based kids shows. ;-)

[05:52:32]

ashes:

netflix is definetly one of the big problems. white listing web sites in a browser, managing a linux user, etc, is all doable

[05:53:12]

ashes:

i started them off with a laptop set up in the same way

[05:53:45]

ashes:

firefox with all the net nanny plugins, and no filesystem permissions to disable them

[05:54:16]

J-e-f-f-A:

I setup my son with a desktop when he was 6, but we didn't have Netflix then. ;-) Heck, the PCs couldn't play DVDs without a dedicated decoder card (except for the really fast ones!)

[05:55:56]

ashes:

but a laptop isn't as attractive as the ipad, and linux lacks games for 5 year olds

[05:56:04]

ashes:

android has a lot of simple games

[05:56:14]

ashes:

with the nice touch screen

[05:56:18]

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[05:56:26]

ashes:

but again, it's not perfect

[05:56:28]

J-e-f-f-A:

Yep.

[05:56:32]

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[05:56:48]

ashes:

in android every user can delete images, movies, change the wireless settings

[05:57:11]

ashes:

the directory where the movies are stored is vfat

[05:57:38]

ashes:

i would have designed it with better security

[05:57:51]

ashes:

you can't expect a 10 year old not to hack their tablet

[05:58:04]

J-e-f-f-A:

ah... I was going to say if the device is rooted, you could probably change that, but perhaps not. And rooting would allow anyone to do anything, unless you can lock down the root privileges to specific users.

[05:58:29]

ashes:

i imagine i can reproduce what this manufacturer did

[05:58:37]

clever:

ashes: with newer devices, the virtual sd card is actualy not fat, but it runs thru a fuse fs to emulate all of fat's problems

[05:58:47]

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[05:58:54]

ashes:

i imagine some companies issue cell phones to their staff, and they can't reconfigure the phone or add apps

[05:59:50]

ashes:

mobile security has more issues than it should have

[06:00:47]

ashes:

i don't know if there are options

[06:00:53]

J-e-f-f-A:

ashes: Yeah, there is some security with Android nowadays – encrypted memory, forced pin entry, turning off cameras.... The only thing I've seen enforce them on Android is an Outlook Group Policy... so anything is possible...

[06:01:36]

ashes:

when you have physical access to an android device, there is generally a way to root it, without unscrewing it and soldering a chip on the mainboard

[06:01:55]

clever:

ashes: yep, usualy via the usb port

[06:02:03]

J-e-f-f-A:

I was going to setup my work email on my Personal phone, and it wanted to encrypt my SD card, turn off cameras, and force a pin-unlock code. I said "Nope!" ;-)

[06:02:39]

ashes:

if you make your phone impossible to log into, then you have zero change of getting it back

[06:02:40]

clever:

J-e-f-f-A: when my dad setup his work email, the exchange server FORCED security options on

[06:02:55]

ashes:

chance

[06:03:01]

clever:

if you try to disable the pin code lock, it will delete all emails and the email acct info

[06:03:10]

J-e-f-f-A:

ashes: Yeah... Depends on the device – I'd imagine the 'locked' devices for specific carriers are much more difficult than an off-the-shelf tablet. ;-)

[06:03:18]

ashes:

i have brainstormed an intrusion detection for phones

[06:03:41]

clever:

android (and its email app) already has policy stuff in it, and the email app translates the exchange server policy's to android policy's

[06:03:41]

J-e-f-f-A:

clever: yep – I just chose to not continue the setup – so I didn't have my work email on my personal phone.

[06:04:14]

clever:

but now i cant play with over half the lock screen options, some of which are way more secure then the pin code

[06:04:20]

ashes:

basically, you want the person who finds it to have an opportunity to find you, and if they don't, and decide to replace the sim card instead, you want it to look like a stock phone, so that your root backdoor will work

[06:04:21]

clever:

because the dumb policy is whitelist based

[06:04:50]

ashes:

don't encourage people to reinstall your phone

[06:04:51]

J-e-f-f-A:

clever: Note; My work cell was an HTC Inspire 4g, which did NOT shut off the cameras (on Gingerbread), but my personal phone is running JellyBean, and it added the 'disable cameras' and 'encryption'... So Android is becoming more "Enterprise Aware"...

[06:05:19]

clever:

in my case, its a galaxy S3, which is my dads main work phone now

[06:06:03]

J-e-f-f-A:

Anyways, best of luck ashes – it's 1:05am and I'm sleepy. ;-) ttyl clever ;-)

[06:06:14]

** J-e-f-f-A heads off to bed. ;-) **

[06:06:21]

clever:

oh dang, 2am, i should do the same

[06:06:21]

ashes:

k

[06:07:53]

ashes:

i had other ideas

[06:08:48]

ashes:

after tracking them, taking pictures of them, downloading their contacts, figure out their schedule, and make some phone sex calls to new zeland at the begining of their billing period

[06:09:01]

clever:

lol

[06:09:18]

ashes:

while they are sleeping

[06:09:43]

ashes:

record the call to their carrier about the bill

[06:09:48]

ashes:

and upload that on youtube

[06:10:02]

ashes:

oh

[06:10:17]

ashes:

and turn the phone into a tor relay while they're sleeping

[06:10:28]

ashes:

bypass the app that tracks data usage

[06:10:42]

ashes:

tor exit point

[06:11:16]

ashes:

that'll be the last phone they ever steal

[06:11:40]

clever:

ashes: that reminds me of a video, let me find it

[06:11:59]

clever:

ashes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4oB28ksiIo

[06:12:25]

clever:

he basicaly did what your thinking, and more

[06:12:54]

clever:

in the end, he wound up with the guys entire life history, address, social security#, online banking pw, and nude pics

[06:13:11]

ashes:

sure

[06:13:30]

ashes:

you can learn a hell of a lot about someone from watching their smart phone

[06:13:50]

clever:

this video was about a mac desktop

[06:14:22]

ashes:

i broke my youtube player with interesting firewall rules. i'm downloading it for offline viewing. ets is like 15 minutes

[06:14:36]

clever:

oh yeah, once you root the phone, put your payload in /system/

[06:14:53]

clever:

if you make it a system app, it wont be removed by a 'factory reset'

[06:15:07]

ashes:

i was thinking about that aswell

[06:15:37]

ashes:

but just having clockworkmod installed on a phone is weird. i would want to make that difficult to figure out

[06:15:52]

clever:

you will probly need a custom su binary, since the normal one runs the su apk as well

[06:15:52]

ashes:

i would want the phone to look stock

[06:16:05]

clever:

you can restore the bootloader, if you have a copy of the original

[06:16:18]

clever:

but if they even think to look at that, your going to have a fight on your hans

[06:16:21]

clever:

d

[06:16:42]

ashes:

ya

[06:17:02]

ashes:

i guess i should draw a line

[06:17:23]

ashes:

basically, i don't want the phone passed to the phone geek who will root it

[06:17:36]

ashes:

i just want it to work for them

[06:17:46]

ashes:

they find an unlocked phone that is otherwise stock

[06:17:50]

clever:

i have played with gps lojack's, i made an app that runs in the background and uploads gps traces to a website

[06:18:23]

clever:

in theory, you can stick that into /system/app/ as well, and then it will keep tracking them after they factory reset it

[06:18:54]

clever:

you will have the rough location, and IP address

[06:19:01]

ashes:

the email client, password files, etc, should be configured to be stored on the external sdcard, which is encypted

[06:19:12]

ashes:

this is a sane compromise

[06:19:17]

clever:

location says which police (what state) needs to be involved, ip + warrant + isp == account+billing addr

[06:19:59]

ashes:

contacts too

[06:20:13]

ashes:

they would get a usable phone, but no private info

[06:20:41]

ashes:

and the act of booting the phone without giving an sdcard pass invokes intrusion detection

[06:21:14]

clever:

so if they just pick it up, everything will give access for weeks

[06:21:20]

ashes:

it's complicated to not make this look weird

[06:21:22]

clever:

until the battery happens to run dead and shut it off?

[06:21:35]

ashes:

ida know

[06:21:48]

ashes:

i'm not sure

[06:22:08]

clever:

i rarely reboot my android devices

[06:22:26]

clever:

you could also key it by gps

[06:22:36]

clever:

if its near your house/work, stay unlocked

[06:22:42]

ashes:

screensaver locks the sdcard, asks for password but has a "cancel" button

[06:22:43]

clever:

if you stray too far, ask for the pw every 12h

[06:23:17]

ashes:

so you can use the phone without contacts, email password, etc

[06:24:54]

clever:

another more extreme idea, does it have NFC?

[06:24:59]

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[06:28:21]

ashes:

yes

[06:28:48]

ashes:

dude, i can find a way to post all the data i collect anonymously

[06:28:49]

clever:

get an rfid tag that it can read, and slap it on the back of your watch or something

[06:29:18]

clever:

if the correct tag is scanned, (possibly just by holding it), everything works normaly

[06:29:19]

ashes:

ya. they make yubikey nfc

[06:29:42]

clever:

if you dont scan the tag, ask for a pin code, and give them a 'i forgot' option, maye it look like it belongs

[06:29:57]

clever:

when you click that, delete everything on /data/, like a factory reset, and begin tracking!

[06:30:05]

ashes:

ya

[06:30:15]

ashes:

that would work

[06:30:17]

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[06:31:01]

ashes:

do daily backups with a wake-on-lan packet

[06:31:14]

ashes:

when you come home

[06:32:00]

ashes:

and if you come out of sleep without a yubikey, it reboots itself to automatically factory reset

[06:32:17]

ashes:

with a clear text sdcard

[06:32:41]

ashes:

or just reformat the sdcard in background

[06:32:55]

ashes:

make it look like "android is not responding, rebooting"

[06:32:58]

ashes:

ida know

[06:34:59]

ashes:

mm

[06:35:26]

ashes:

you want to make it easy for people to give you back your phone

[06:35:33]

ashes:

if you lost it

[06:36:57]

ashes:

some people are evil, and will collect your contact info and passwords before reinstalling your phone

[06:37:28]

ashes:

the first thing they will do is remove the sim card

[06:37:46]

ashes:

so

[06:38:00]

ashes:

protecting data, like emails, encrypted, is key

[06:38:21]

ashes:

and your phone is actually stolen when the sim card is replaced

[06:58:36]

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[14:45:34]

James2:

hey guys,ecerytime i retune channels, i get loads of duplicate "conflicting" channels which it asks me to go through manually assigning avalid channel no

[14:46:00]

James2:

how do i find out a) what the actual conflict it, and b) which of these channels i should actually be using

[14:51:02]

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[14:59:16]

James2:

hmm and im unable to tune to one of the satelite muxes...

[14:59:19]

James2:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/info/sat_frequencies.shtml

[14:59:37]

James2:

DSAT8 imtuned to, but DSAT4's settings just give me a timeout and no channels

[14:59:54]

James2:

is that likely to happen if the dish alignment was slghtly out

[15:00:15]

James2:

but i dont understand why i can get one of its muxes but not another, surely if it can see the satelite, it can see it right?

[15:00:18]

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[16:02:46]

jarle:

James2: The problem with conflicting channels has been around for years. My guess is that it depends on which satellites you get in your area, and that none of the developers use satellites that gives you problems...

[16:07:28]

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[16:15:27]

sphery:

the real problem is that the channel scanner needs serious work

[16:15:44]

sphery:

you get the same with cable lineups and even OTA lineups, due to errors in the code

[16:16:29]

sphery:

it has nothing to do with satellites nor developers not using satellites--it mostly has to do with the fact that most people scan their channels only once in a blue moon

[16:16:40]

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[16:17:02]

sphery:

and no one (developers or users) has gotten motivated to work on improving it (because we all--developers and users--have plenty of other stuff to do)

[16:17:05]

sphery:

:)

[16:17:15]

sphery:

James2: ^^^

[16:17:34]

James2:

idd :P

[16:17:45]

James2:

but now is one of those times im having to do a rescan, and it sucks :P

[16:18:31]

sphery:

wagnerrp: Does the Video Library video scanner refuse to remove videos if the host with which they're associated no longer exists?

[16:19:19]

sphery:

wagnerrp: ref http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/538900#538900 ... and if so, is there a way for him to manually remove them since he didn't properly decommission his host?

[16:19:32]

wagnerrp:

yes

[16:19:33]

sphery:

(manually via the UI, ideally--rather than direct DB manipulation)

[16:19:56]

wagnerrp:

assuming those videos still exist, they should automatically be transferred to the new host on the next scan

[16:20:08]

wagnerrp:

if not... only option at this time is DB manipulation

[16:20:13]

sphery:

James2: yeah, unfortunately I don't know how best to work around it--I haven't scanned in quite a while

[16:20:28]

sphery:

wagnerrp: interesting... so same vides with same hash would work

[16:20:39]

sphery:

I'll tell him

[16:21:12]

sphery:

hehe, I love this song... "Re Your Brains" by Jonathan Coulton

[16:21:42]

sphery:

but now it's making me want to watch more Walking Dead (but I think I should wait until there's more than one ep to watch...)

[16:21:58]

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[16:22:26]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I suppose we should eventually allow a manual "Delete" from the UI and/or Video Manager

[16:27:51]

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[16:28:19]

jams:

pressing D while the item is selected won't delete it?

[16:28:43]

jams:

i know that works for entries that are backed by valid storage groups

[16:32:02]

sphery:

according to the user (haven't tried it myself), if the backend doesn't exist, it won't let you delete it.

[16:32:23]

sphery:

not sure if that's because he doesn't know how to delete or if it really won't allow

[16:32:34]

jams:

hmm guess thats true

[16:32:44]

skd5aner:

I saw we just have a new frontend client that runs only off of user entered SQL commands

[16:32:49]

skd5aner:

s/saw/say

[16:33:08]

jams:

at one point when a storage group wasn't available it would delete all the videos and people complained, so i guess it swung to far the other way

[16:33:20]

sphery:

yeah

[16:33:34]

sphery:

this was done because of the "half my videos keep disappearing"

[16:33:45]

sphery:

but it's /not/ too far the other way

[16:33:52]

jams:

it was a valid complaint

[16:34:15]

sphery:

it's just that no one has yet thought about helping out users who don't properly decommission hosts

[16:34:20]

sphery:

for this part

[16:34:36]

sphery:

just like we still don't have a good way to update the host name for recordings when you move them to a new host

[16:34:40]

sphery:

i.e. we're not done, yet :)

[16:35:06]

sphery:

only reason this is a problem is because he didn't clean up the host/profile before getting rid of it

[16:36:22]

sphery:

but he can work around that as wagnerrp said (same file on new host causes hash match) or using the alternative (harder) approach I suggested trying if he can't use wagnerrp's approach in my e-mail--start up a backend using a LocalHostName override with the old host's name and have it point to an empty dir so that it says there are no videos for that host

[16:37:41]

skd5aner:

I wonder what would happen if a core group of developers were paid to just work exclusively on MythTV for three months

[16:38:32]

James2:

heh id be up for that, and have a few good candidate test rigs

[16:38:50]

sphery:

I can send you my rates, but...

[16:38:53]

James2:

although atm idont know mythtv at all well enough

[16:39:24]

James2:

id guess most of the devs are like me, and run their own businesses or are employed as programmers somewhere

[16:39:34]

James2:

so working on myth is purely a part time / for fun type of thing

[16:40:03]

wagnerrp:

the current plan is to make the content lists available in the video library generated by the backend, rather than the frontend

[16:40:20]

wagnerrp:

and tie it into the list of slave backends known by mainserver

[16:40:26]

sphery:

yeah, the biggest problem I'm having is finding the part time/for fun time

[16:40:33]

wagnerrp:

so only content known to be available is displayed

[16:40:54]

sphery:

that would definitely be good

[16:40:58]

sphery:

same for watch recordings

[16:41:10]

sphery:

(which will be easier if I get the merged schema in place/in use)

[16:41:33]

James2:

skd5aner: perhaps some sort of kickstarter type project might help us?

[16:42:01]

sphery:

I think the biggest issue will be properly specifying deliverables, etc.

[16:42:07]

skd5aner:

James2: mythtv is just a hobby for all the devs

[16:42:26]

James2:

we'd have to find out who the real core devs are though, and then whether their own work lives would allow doing 1 day per week paid work for myth

[16:42:28]

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[16:42:36]

skd5aner:

I know who the real core ones are

[16:42:41]

sphery:

meaning that it would probably get to be far too much like work and most would be afraid of the expectations/commitments that they might incur from taking on the job

[16:43:14]

skd5aner:

I know where they live... I know what they drive... I know what they ahd for breakfast... oh, wait... did I say that outloud?

[16:43:19]

James2:

lol

[16:43:31]

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[16:43:37]

sphery:

skd5aner /is/ Google

[16:43:58]

skd5aner:

sphery /is/ a wikipedia and mythlogbot hybrid

[16:43:58]

James2:

is there a documented 'wish list' anywhere

[16:44:08]

sphery:

hehe

[16:44:11]

skd5aner:

James2: on the wiki – it sucks

[16:44:32]

sphery:

not so much the logbot hybrid, now--I'm 1000 commits behind + 2400 ticket messages behind

[16:44:35]

James2:

perhaps that would be a good start, and include some pseudocode style info on how it might be achieved for each and every little thing

[16:44:44]

skd5aner:

James2: devs ignore it... and every dev has their own wish/to-do list that is infinitely long that they constnatly remind us about when we bring up a feature... "oh, that's on my todo list"

[16:44:46]

sphery:

stupid work plus trying to have a real life got in the way last year

[16:44:48]

skd5aner:

it never gets done

[16:44:54]

James2:

then we have a semi tangiable list of things that could be worked on,

[16:45:16]

skd5aner:

sphery: yea, I noticed you've been here, but not

[16:45:20]

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[16:45:23]

sphery:

skd5aner: I'd be insulted by that comment if it weren't so true

[16:45:27]

canthus13:

Anyone know why HDMI output would be stuck at 1024x768? When the system boots, the TV briefly reports the correct 720p resolution, but switches to 1024x768 as X starts up.

[16:45:31]

canthus13:

the only resolution option in the display settings is 1024x768, no refresh rates listed.

[16:45:31]

sphery:

(about the todo lists)

[16:45:38]

skd5aner:

sphery: hahaha :D

[16:45:40]

sphery:

I'm the poster boy of "on my todo list"

[16:46:01]

sphery:

and worst is that a couple of my todos are prereq's for other people's todos

[16:46:05]

James2:

lol i know how you feel sphery ;)

[16:46:12]

jams:

canthus13, what "display settings" are you talking about

[16:47:12]

James2:

what about some kind of incentive scheme

[16:47:20]

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[16:47:38]

sphery:

for me, the main incentive is "once I finish it, I'll get to benefit from it"

[16:47:39]

canthus13:

jams: within XFCE

[16:47:40]

James2:

all the todo items, people could pledge money into some fund by paypal, google checkout, bitcoin, yada yada

[16:47:46]

sphery:

unfortunately, though, other stuff gets in the way

[16:48:11]

James2:

then whoever operates the fund, could reward the devs with the bounty once the item gets into myth

[16:48:25]

sphery:

speaking of other stuff, I should quit wasting lunch time and get back to the work I'm supposed to be doing

[16:49:15]

sphery:

(not that this discussion is a waste of time, but that I should be working on my real work, now)

[16:49:20]

James2:

perhaps only like 75% of the cash could ctully get givn out actually, the rest to be used for when

[16:49:27]

sphery:

so it's wasting work time

[16:49:39]

James2:

feature needs "insert specific type of hardware here" and dev is able to do it but doesnt have the hardware

[16:49:50]

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[16:50:09]

James2:

the funds pledged by people who want it, can pay for the dev to get the bit of hardware he needs to develop it

[16:50:25]

skd5aner:

James2: yea – I can only speak from hanging out here far too long, but the motivation for developers really isn't to share with the world as much as it is to scratch their own itch (for the most part)

[16:50:28]

James2:

imho its easier to get 200 people to give £1 than it is to find 1 to give £200

[16:51:00]

skd5aner:

James2: if they feel the need to spend their time doing something, it's because they see it as a gap for their own purpose

[16:51:15]

James2:

idd, same with some of the features id like to add to myth once i know how to

[16:51:36]

skd5aner:

My biggest complaint recently is that mythtv isn't doing much innovative stuff at the moment – features aren't really being added or extended – it's all rewrite work, and stability and bug fixes...

[16:51:48]

James2:

some are quite rare, but would be useful for someone trying to take myth down a more commercial route

[16:51:53]

jams:

hey don't know stability and bug fixes

[16:51:57]

sphery:

I'll admit that's true for me... where my itches are things I want + things that will help get rid of things I hate (i.e. some stuff I have no interest in, but fixing it properly would prevent people from making messes/constantly complaining/breaking things/...)

[16:51:58]

skd5aner:

what that means is, you upgrade from 0.25 to 0.26 and you scratch your head and say " what's new"???

[16:52:16]

James2:

id love to install myth into a hotel for example, it would be awesome but still needs all of the pay per view and sort of thing the hotels would want

[16:52:29]

sphery:

and some serious security

[16:53:15]

skd5aner:

James2: the bounty stuff has been proposed before – it sometimes works when the bounty is either high enough and/or a dev thinks it's a worthwhile thing to add... for the example, the nework socket control was added that way, as well as some tuner stuff long ago

[16:54:04]

skd5aner:

but, for the most part – the $20 here or $50 there really hasn't gotten the attention of the devs to pull their focus away from their priorities to someone elses – especially when the request isn't beneficial to the dev or the community at large

[16:54:06]

sphery:

and if you're a developer, think about your rates, and how much real software development costs

[16:54:06]

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[16:54:10]

jams:

it also was very specific stuff.

[16:54:49]

sphery:

most bounties are very small compared to the work required and such

[16:54:56]

James2:

yeah it would probably take more like 10 people pledging $20 for even the most basic stuff to actually get paid for at any kind of sensible rate

[16:55:33]

skd5aner:

James2: that said – donation of hardware IS a good thing, and has helped in the past – but not in a long while

[16:55:45]

James2:

yeah its the problem i have tbh

[16:55:54]

skd5aner:

sometimes the vendors themselves lend out the hardware so they'll get supported in mythtv

[16:56:21]

James2:

i have a mate i introduced to myth 5+ years ago, he now has 2 backends and 3 extra frontends, various different tuners on dvb-t and svb-s/s2

[16:56:44]

James2:

what i dont have is a spare of each type of card he has,etc so i could have a test rig

[16:57:08]

skd5aner:

James2: some people have done hotels before, so I've heared

[16:57:09]

skd5aner:

heard

[16:57:37]

James2:

yeah id like to, but i need to know myth a lot better first, and to me it feels a bit not quite ready atm

[16:58:03]

skd5aner:

I won't even deploy mythtv to my parents and I've been using it for nearly 10 years

[16:58:11]

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[16:58:12]

James2:

that said, a lot of the issues i have i think would evaporate if for example i could have a backend with 12 dvb-s tuners

[16:58:24]

sphery:

wow, 12 tuners?

[16:58:28]

skd5aner:

I'm honestly worried about my daughter in a few years when she's old enough to want to use the TV herself...

[16:58:28]

James2:

well for a hotel

[16:58:44]

sphery:

I have 6 physical tuners and I thought that was crazy (because I can and do end up recording way more than I can watch)

[16:58:47]

James2:

with multiplexes i think thats enpughto have 1 tuner locked to each freq constantly

[16:58:55]

sphery:

ahhh, yeah a hotel would need quite a few

[16:59:15]

** tgm4883 has 5 tuners, of which 3 only get used **

[16:59:16]

skd5aner:

sphery: not including virtual tuners I have 9 tuners in service... and another 4–5 not installed

[16:59:19]

James2:

at home it would be a bit excessive recording all tv constantly :P

[16:59:39]

James2:

but imagine the pr the hotel could get being able to offer earlier todays tv to guests :P

[16:59:52]

James2:

guesthastravelled, arrived at 9pmafter missing xxx on tv at 7.30

[16:59:59]

skd5aner:

I would say for a hotel you'd want way more than 1

[17:00:00]

skd5aner:

12

[17:00:05]

James2:

but with the hotel tv, he can still catch up

[17:00:07]

sphery:

yeah, PR just like Dish Networks is getting with their Hopper service

[17:00:12]

sphery:

i.e. PR from the lawsuits

[17:00:20]

James2:

haha

[17:00:22]

skd5aner:

If you had even 50 rooms, I'd want at least 50+ tuners

[17:00:28]

James2:

theyd love the ad free channels too :P

[17:00:34]

James2:

well thats overkill

[17:00:34]

tgm4883:

skd5aner, no need if you are recording all the channels

[17:00:44]

James2:

you need 1 tuner per input

[17:01:01]

skd5aner:

tgm4883: true... if you record every channel at every time

[17:01:03]

sphery:

no need if you are recording all the channels /and/ make major modifications to mythtv to jump from tuner to tuner during live tv

[17:01:04]

tgm4883:

skd5aner, you need enough tuners to cover recording every channel you offer 24/7

[17:01:15]

James2:

if 50 rooms watch 30 different chanels on 9 different multiplexes, you only need 9 cardsin use and have 3 free still

[17:01:18]

skd5aner:

tgm4883: so, in the us, the average hotel might have ~45 cable channels

[17:01:25]

skd5aner:

assuming they're muxed

[17:01:28]

tgm4883:

sphery, if you are recording every channel 24x7, you can axe live tv

[17:01:39]

James2:

in the uk we only need 6 tuners to record all freeview channels

[17:01:42]

tgm4883:

need massive storage though

[17:01:44]

sphery:

well, users would still want a "jump from this channel to the other"

[17:01:54]

James2:

well my mateshouse has a 10tb raid 5 array

[17:01:56]

sphery:

because they don't know how to use a "what can I watch" interface without some grid

[17:02:01]

tgm4883:

sphery, f that

[17:02:02]

sphery:

or channel up/down

[17:02:11]

sphery:

hehe, I agree

[17:02:14]

James2:

for the user they dont even know

[17:02:22]

sphery:

but I know <random hotel guest> would be lost

[17:02:26]

James2:

as they chan up / down, the frontend would just play the other stream

[17:02:32]

tgm4883:

sphery, honestly, from what I've seen in the past. Users need people to tell them what to do/how to use something

[17:02:41]

sphery:

James2: yeah, that would require some major mods

[17:02:44]

James2:

oh yeah it would need a tutorial

[17:03:05]

tgm4883:

sphery, nah, just need a better search interface

[17:03:07]

James2:

personally with that kind of deployment, id expect the hotel to have its own channels, one of which is a constantly repeateing howto videothey made

[17:03:23]

James2:

which would also hapen to be the default channel when they turned the tv on

[17:03:30]

tgm4883:

sphery, mythfrontend is a terrible solution for searching a large amount of shows

[17:03:49]

sphery:

yes

[17:03:55]

sphery:

Watch Recordings in particular

[17:04:30]

tgm4883:

sphery, so for a hotel, just use mythbackend for recording shows, then write a custom frontend

[17:04:44]

skd5aner:

yup

[17:04:44]

sphery:

Video Library is unless you organize the shows how you like them in directories and configure Video Library properly--but even then, it's only useful for that person (and/or his family who he taught to use the organization he came up with)

[17:05:15]

sphery:

but we can't put in a universal search--or we'll get sued by apple

[17:05:24]

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[17:05:25]

sphery:

just ask samsung

[17:05:57]

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[17:06:00]

tgm4883:

sphery, IIRC, that patent is for searching multiple backends from a single frontend

[17:06:05]

sphery:

actually, the hardest part of a search mechanism in mythtv is the lack of a keyboard

[17:06:06]

skd5aner:

Tim Cook says he hates that they sued samsung – that it was Job's dying wish

[17:06:12]

tgm4883:

sphery, so we'd be fine as the only backend would be mythtv

[17:06:14]

sphery:

tgm4883: yeah, it was a bad joke

[17:06:30]

tgm4883:

sphery, on the other hand, Ubuntu should probably be a bit concerned with Unity :/

[17:06:37]

sphery:

hehe

[17:06:50]

sphery:

even if they don't get sued, they should be concerned

[17:07:34]

sphery:

it doesn't seem that their plan is going over well with users (and I know I don't want my every move broadcast to amazon--even via an intermediary that "scrubs" it)

[17:07:45]

sphery:

but, hey, gotta break some eggs

[17:07:52]

sphery:

may lead to the next big thing

[17:08:13]

tgm4883:

sphery, meh, I think that is overblown. It's easily disabled via the control panel

[17:08:51]

sphery:

yeah

[17:09:00]

sphery:

that's good that they put the switch on

[17:09:09]

sphery:

and of course the media is blowing it way out of proportion

[17:09:42]

sphery:

but then again, the media's FUD tends to weigh heavily on "the common man" (and potential users, etc.)

[17:10:07]

sphery:

My dad uninstalled Java--which is used by some of the programs he uses--because the media told him it's insecure

[17:10:33]

sphery:

which is BS... The Java Plugin/allowing Java applets in the browser is completely insecure

[17:11:07]

sphery:

and when I say, "uninstalled," I mean he deleted some random file that broke his Java installation because some pundit told him to

[17:11:22]

tgm4883:

heh

[17:11:23]

sphery:

didn't even do it through Control Panel (but it still broke Java)

[17:11:26]

tgm4883:

yea, that's not good

[17:11:40]

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[17:12:23]

sphery:

anyway, I wish Ubuntu the best of luck--as far as distros supporting MythTV, Ubuntu is by far the best I've seen

[17:12:31]

tgm4883:

:)

[17:12:42]

James2:

hehyeahdont i know it lol

[17:12:47]

sphery:

so I don't want it to go anywhere or lose too much popularity

[17:12:49]

** James2 < centos fan :P **

[17:12:54]

sphery:

hehe

[17:13:08]

James2:

i run a hosting business and everything we use is centos/cloudlinux based

[17:13:27]

James2:

i have one other random dev machine that runs ubuntu, and mythtvs lol

[17:14:41]

sphery:

my "right tool for the job" approach says that even a RPM-familiar user would most likely be better off learning enough of *buntu to set up a Mythbuntu MythTV appliance than trying to do MythTV on their favored distribution (and they can still run other computers on the network on their preferred distro)

[17:14:44]

James2:

maybe i should work on a mythcentos first lol

[17:14:46]

GreyFoxx:

spher: What sort of stuff is sent out to amazon via unity (I haven'

[17:14:49]

sphery:

but it's hard to convince someone of that

[17:14:52]

GreyFoxx:

t updated my u buntu in a long time)

[17:15:15]

tgm4883:

sphery, I think the we've got staying power simply because we've automated so much of it

[17:15:16]

sphery:

GreyFoxx: TTBOMK, it's stuff you search for in their universal search ...

[17:15:27]

GreyFoxx:

ewww

[17:15:37]

sphery:

but I haven't looked too deeply into it--mainly because it's easy to disable

[17:15:43]

tgm4883:

mostly because of the infrestructure available

[17:15:57]

sphery:

tgm4883: yeah, you guys are actually doing what distros need to do

[17:16:08]

sphery:

build the "extras" that integrate all the stuff necessary

[17:16:26]

sphery:

like your control panel that helps users configure low level stuff like remotes--as easily as just selecting one

[17:16:33]

James2:

so help me design a new channel setup app :P

[17:16:45]

GreyFoxx:

spher: all of my stuff is running 10.04, though a round of upgrades is coming

[17:16:52]

GreyFoxx:

so I will be disabling that :)

[17:16:54]

sphery:

that kind of stuff is what I expected to come of udev--but none of the distros ever got around to putting the fancy frontend on it... :(

[17:17:00]

James2:

atm im stuck in a place wheni get load ofconflicting channels, but i dont understand why they are conflicting, nor how to actuallywork out whatis what

[17:17:01]

tgm4883:

James2, channel setup app?

[17:17:24]

James2:

its just "conflicting channel" give new number

[17:17:29]

sphery:

GreyFoxx: hehe, yeah, sounds like an update is a good plan--go to a newer LTS

[17:17:37]

GreyFoxx:

yup

[17:18:12]

James2:

what id like to learn is how myth actually scans for channels,

[17:18:26]

James2:

so thati can do it manually and startworking out some programmatic solutions to the problem

[17:19:12]

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[17:19:17]

James2:

as a startoff, it would be nice to change the mythtv-setup ui, so thatwhen a conflict occurs

[17:19:39]

James2:

it can list the new conflicting channel,and its details, along with the existing channels details

[17:20:05]

James2:

even looking in the channels table in the database after manuallyassigning every channeladifferent number imunable to actually tell the difference

[17:20:43]

James2:

so my guess is that for some reason a single channelscan returns the same exactsame hannel more than once

[17:21:29]

James2:

ignore should probably be the response to the question the channelscan asks, but it doesnt display enough info at thatpoint to make the right choice

[17:22:37]

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[17:23:20]

James2:

for example getting 12 different copies of "bbc 1" for allthe local areas (via our dvb-s feed), as well as 3 different ones from the dvb-t inputs

[17:25:48]

James2:

and this is what usually happens when it comes to fixing myth :P

[17:25:58]

James2:

everyone has a nap in he middle lol

[17:31:01]

James2:

just reading the wiki lol, and from the wishlist standpoint, be aware i amnot talking to any of you with the view to someone else adding this stuff to myth

[17:31:19]

James2:

i am fully intending to do this work myself, but i need some help finding where to actually start

[17:31:37]

James2:

mythtv is a pretty big project :P

[17:32:45]

sphery:

have you found the wishlist? it's at http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Feature_Wishlist

[17:33:01]

James2:

yeah im reading it :P

[17:33:56]

sphery:

wagn errp has done a good job of trying to keep up with most of the things on there

[17:34:04]

sphery:

the rest of us don't tend to do so well

[17:34:28]

sphery:

wagne rrp is actually replying to many of them with further information/plans/why it won't work/...

[17:35:39]

James2:

ok perhaps i need to rephrase my whole quetion then lol

[17:36:00]

James2:

"in the mythtv source code, what file is mostly responsible for channel tuning"

[17:36:15]

sphery:

I think you need to look at mythtv-setup code

[17:36:35]

sphery:

rather than channel tuning type stuff

[17:36:52]

sphery:

look at the scanning stuff used by mythtv-setup

[17:37:15]

James2:

whats the main differences between 0.26 and0.27

[17:37:32]

James2:

is it worth me looking at the 0.26 source or should i just use the latest dev code

[17:37:37]

sphery:

specifically https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/tree/master/ . . . /channelscan

[17:37:45]

sphery:

I recommend you always work on the latest

[17:38:32]

James2:

cool

[17:38:42]

sphery:

I don't think much has changed in the scanning, though, so for this you could probably get away with working on 0.26 and then porting it to 0.27 code later

[17:38:49]

sphery:

https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/tree/fixes/0 . . . /channelscan

[17:39:12]

sphery:

note that the scanner was designed to try to keep the UI stuff completely separate from the scanning

[17:39:25]

sphery:

you'll need to look at channelscan code to figure out how it works

[17:39:26]

James2:

just the dates show me theres been enough little fixes

[17:39:31]

James2:

so ill work on 0.27

[17:39:52]

James2:

well as i see it the issue is actually with the ui then not the scanner

[17:40:04]

James2:

we just need to make the ui show more useful info when it hits a conflicting channel

[17:40:08]

sphery:

but because the UI is separate, you can modify the channeleditor UI stuff in https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/tree/fixes/0 . . . mythtv-setup easily

[17:40:13]

sphery:

i.e. make it a useful UI

[17:40:17]

James2:

aye

[17:40:27]

sphery:

and note that there's (very basic/primitive) command-line scanning support

[17:40:34]

James2:

atm its a box "give me channel number" with no clues as whats wrong :P

[17:40:45]

sphery:

right

[17:40:46]

James2:

yeah thats the other half of what i need

[17:40:55]

sphery:

the scanner itself was rewritten without really modifying the UI

[17:41:01]

James2:

i need to manually do a scan so i have an idea of what myth has available to it when it gets confuzzled

[17:41:11]

sphery:

because the intent is to completely replace the UI with a better, web-based one

[17:41:21]

sphery:

but that requires a ton of other work to be completed first

[17:41:23]

James2:

that would be sweet, and is more my area of expertise tbh

[17:41:33]

sphery:

so may not be the best place to start work

[17:41:54]

James2:

what ton of other work needs to be done first?

[17:41:55]

sphery:

and, eventually, I think we'll have our frontend settings converted to mythui (they're currently Qt-based UI code)

[17:41:59]

skd5aner:

James2: are you a developer? the mythtv source isn't for the faint of heart

[17:42:11]

James2:

yes, but im a php/mysql dev primarily

[17:42:22]

James2:

ive done very limited work with c in the past:P

[17:42:23]

sphery:

and when we do, I'd prefer that we also have a setup UI in mythui (i.e. so you don't /have/ to use a web browser)

[17:42:26]

skd5aner:

cool – mythweb could use some love

[17:42:28]

sphery:

and so you can have a nice, themed UI

[17:42:36]

skd5aner:

it's all php

[17:42:45]

skd5aner:

and is basically just bitrotting right now

[17:42:51]

sphery:

the best work that you could do for MythWeb is to slowly rip parts out of it

[17:42:52]

James2:

well let me get to grips with the channel scanner then

[17:43:08]

James2:

if its really that seperate, it shouldnt be too hard to make a specific channel scan page for mythweb

[17:43:12]

sphery:

and instead proxy (and skin) pages from the backend HTTP server

[17:43:24]

sphery:

actually, slowly isn't a requirement :)

[17:43:40]

sphery:

IMHO, MythWeb should completely disappear

[17:43:46]

James2:

tbh i like mythweb and think it needs a lot more

[17:43:47]

sphery:

it makes no sense to have a completely independent client

[17:43:52]

James2:

ah but it does

[17:44:02]

sphery:

instead, it should just proxy pages from the backend web server

[17:44:03]

James2:

manageing recordings for example is sooooo much easier from a browser

[17:44:07]

sphery:

no

[17:44:15]

sphery:

that needs to be part of mythtv proper

[17:44:21]

sphery:

a web page on the backend web server

[17:44:26]

James2:

yeah

[17:44:36]

James2:

sorry isnt that what mythweb is?

[17:44:42]

sphery:

then we turn mythweb into a glorified proxy and skin (CSS) for those pages

[17:45:12]

sphery:

so mythweb prevents your having to open the backend http port to the Internet (since there's /no/ security) and can limit what is accessible that way

[17:45:18]

skd5aner:

James2: sphery is talking strategic stuff that's not yet fully baked – or even half baked

[17:45:19]

sphery:

and can also include several themes

[17:45:33]

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[17:45:35]

sphery:

it's pretty baked

[17:45:50]

skd5aner:

well, on paper

[17:45:59]

sphery:

the main thing we need is a good proxy

[17:46:17]

James2:

so really then the surrent mythweb is more what id call myth-setup web :P

[17:46:17]

sphery:

wagne rrp threw together a quick one that's a good starting point

[17:46:50]

sphery:

so far, the only part of mythweb that's proxying backend web pages is the backend status page

[17:47:27]

sphery:

the rest is a custom-built/separately-developed-and-maintained client that attempts to completely reimplement all the stuff you need to interact with MythTV

[17:47:38]

sphery:

which means it's constantly falling out of sync with modifications to MythTV

[17:47:42]

James2:

right i see

[17:47:53]

sphery:

such as MythWeb has no support for recording templates (ttbomk)

[17:47:55]

James2:

somythtv needs to absorb mythweb

[17:48:10]

sphery:

until someone completely implements a separate code base to handle that in mythweb

[17:48:45]

sphery:

whereas if we use the existing mythtv code and just have the backend web server output pages--like for creating schedules and showing listings and ...--then mythweb never falls out of sync

[17:48:45]

James2:

so looking at this code, channelscan is part of libmythtv

[17:48:57]

sphery:

or, at most, it needs a few css fix ups/changes every once in a while

[17:49:03]

sphery:

right

[17:49:05]

James2:

so how do i access the command,

[17:49:11]

sphery:

mythtv-setup

[17:49:12]

James2:

is this like a dl on windows (kinda)

[17:49:14]

James2:

dll*

[17:49:21]

sphery:

using either the gui or command-line interface

[17:49:26]

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[17:49:47]

James2:

so there should end up with a "channelscan" executable?

[17:49:51]

sphery:

but, yeah, libmythtv.so is a shared object, which is like a dll

[17:50:02]

sphery:

no, mythtv-setup is the executable

[17:50:35]

sphery:

and has a GUI and a command-line interface for scanning

[17:50:37]

James2:

right , so whati need for playing then is a simple warpper program to allow me to feed in and get output from the commandline

[17:50:42]

James2:

oh

[17:50:52]

sphery:

yeah, you could script that

[17:50:57]

sphery:

like an expect script or whatever

[17:51:14]

sphery:

or just run it interactively (at least a few times) to figure out the "UI" of the command line interace

[17:51:26]

James2:

lol yeah

[17:51:29]

sphery:

(and I've never used the CLI for it, so I can't help with that)

[17:51:32]

James2:

unable to open display

[17:51:37]

James2:

what cli lol

[17:51:40]

sphery:

mythtv-setup --help

[17:51:48]

James2:

have you tried it :P

[17:51:52]

sphery:

then see which arguments are required for the CLI

[17:52:06]

sphery:

you have to use the right args or it will try to start the GUI

[17:52:12]

James2:

mythtv-setup --help

[17:52:13]

James2:

xprop: unable to open display ''

[17:52:13]

James2:

(zenity:19556): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:

[17:52:21]

James2:

youre using 0.27?

[17:52:22]

sphery:

ah, then someone broke that, yet again

[17:52:37]

James2:

thats an up to date mythbuntu system running 0.26 lol

[17:52:53]

sphery:

well, you found the first bug you can work on fixing :)

[17:53:20]

James2:

now i do need the 0.26 code ;)

[17:53:50]

James2:

tbf, ive never had anything different when running mythtv-setup from the commandline

[17:54:08]

James2:

so i dont know quite how long in 5 years its spent as fixed :P

[17:54:20]

James2:

i never even knew it was supposed to have a cli lol

[17:55:42]

sphery:

well, in all apps, --help should work even without a display

[17:56:02]

sphery:

see, for example, http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/5935 for one case of where there was a similar problem and it was fixed

[17:56:50]

sphery:

[19504] is the actual code changes

[17:56:50]

MythLogBot:

SVN 19504: (branch master) https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/63609299

[17:58:00]

sphery:

and #7662 , fixed in [22912]

[17:58:00]

MythLogBot:

SVN 22912: (branch master) https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/6566ce50

[17:58:00]

** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/7662 **

[17:58:21]

sphery:

(which is probably closer to current code)

[18:04:49]

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[19:18:09]

tgm4883:

James2, if you're going to work on channel scanning stuff, I think wagnerrp said that some work on that was needed before web-setup could be completed (need a way to scan for channels from services API IIRC)

[19:18:16]

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[19:18:56]

James2:

ahha so basically there needs to be some kind of wrapper between the channelscan bits inside libmyth and the outside world

[19:19:19]

James2:

is there any framework in place for xml-rpc, json, etc etc?

[19:19:35]

tgm4883:

James2, not sure, wagnerrp is 150% more familiar with what is needed than I am

[19:19:49]

James2:

kk hopefully he will read up and fill me in when hes around

[19:20:02]

James2:

im still getting my own code in order before i check out the latest git

[19:20:16]

James2:

damn the joys of having an office and a house andworking from both :P

[19:20:32]

James2:

i managed ot make 500mb of changes i nthe last week or so from home and havent synced yet lol

[19:20:41]

James2:

hence we wait for it to sync :P

[19:20:48]

wagnerrp:

basically, everything that mythtv-setup currently does needs to be moved into mythbackend, and access exposed through the services API so it can be used by the javascript pages served up by mythbackend

[19:21:09]

James2:

ok, so bear in mind i didnt know this existsed ealier

[19:21:21]

James2:

how do i access the pages served by the backend?

[19:21:44]

wagnerrp:

same was as you always have... http://[backend ip]:6544

[19:21:49]

sphery:

and mythbackend modified to allow changes to channels without a restart

[19:21:54]

James2:

same way i never have ever :P

[19:22:03]

wagnerrp:

chances are you've been using it for years and never realized

[19:22:15]

wagnerrp:

the backend status page mythweb serves up is just proxied from mythbackend

[19:22:31]

sphery:

just like the rest of mythweb pages should/will be :)

[19:23:18]

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[19:25:20]

James2:

nope i can confirm besides the status page, in 5 yearsof using myth, i have never accessed that web ui

[19:25:52]

James2:

but basicaly ne need something like http://192.168.48.221:6544/Channel/wsdl but for ChannelScan unless i can come up with a more relevant name

[19:26:14]

James2:

obviously insert your own backend ip ;)

[19:27:06]

sphery:

James2: https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/tree/fixes/0 . . . /mythbackend ... services and serviceHosts dirs

[19:27:18]

sphery:

the wsdl is created automatically, but you have to create the service

[19:27:55]

sphery:

(not to mention make mythbackend not need a restart when changing this info)

[19:28:15]

James2:

aye i get ya

[19:28:54]

sphery:

and it may still make some sense to fix up the existing UI (because we don't want to say, "configure mythtv by going into mythtv-setup and setting up capture cards, video sources, and input connections, then close mythtv-setup and start mythbackend and go to a web browser and go to ... to scan for channels)

[19:29:02]

sphery:

would be a good (and simpler) starting point

[19:29:34]

sphery:

and, IMHO, it is still relevant--though the specific UI code will need changing to mythui--in that we'll almost definitely need a mythui/non-browser-based backend setup, too)

[19:30:32]

James2:

guys dont diss browser based

[19:30:34]

sphery:

and, really, you might be able to just redo the channel scan UI in mythui, now (with help from mythui experts, like stu artm and jpa bq_ , who you can generally find in #mythtv-theming and/or #mythtv)

[19:30:39]

sphery:

right, but we need both

[19:31:07]

James2:

i like remote control, specifically over vpns

[19:31:13]

sphery:

we can't force users to use a different computer to configure mythbackend

[19:31:19]

James2:

webbased is vpn friendly, full screen gui is not ;)

[19:31:34]

sphery:

and using a remote control in mythbrowser to try to do setup would suck

[19:31:43]

jams:

yes it would

[19:31:43]

James2:

and any old myth page can still use the web based version in its browser

[19:31:52]

sphery:

so for the MythTV-as-an-appliance crowd, a mythui-based approach is desired

[19:32:24]

sphery:

jams--I'm guessing (as one of the main devs on the best mythtv appliance distro), this is something that may have concerned you :)

[19:32:42]

jams:

it is

[19:32:49]

James2:

what we really hsould have is both ;)

[19:32:57]

jams:

i think browser based only is an awful idea

[19:33:01]

sphery:

but, seriously, starting with the GUI (or at least the command-line interface) is likely /much/ easier

[19:33:08]

James2:

the mythbackend exposing apis, which can be used by the web server or mythtv-setup

[19:33:10]

sphery:

even though you already understand web-based development

[19:33:25]

James2:

oh short term in just gonna hack the screens lol

[19:33:30]

sphery:

jams: I agree and will fight tooth and nail to make sure we don't have browser-only

[19:33:36]

sphery:

cool

[19:33:38]

James2:

i doubt ill even bother posting those patches as they will be rather rough :P

[19:33:45]

sphery:

the changes to mythbackend are the hardest part

[19:33:52]

sphery:

allowing it to "restart" without a restart

[19:33:58]

James2:

i have to agree with jams there too, browser-only IS bad

[19:34:06]

James2:

but so is mythtv-setup-only ;)

[19:34:07]

tgm4883:

sphery, technically, they wouldn't need to use a separate computer

[19:34:20]

tgm4883:

they could use a web broswer on the backend to configure the backend

[19:34:22]

sphery:

right now, the channels can't change when it's running--which is why you're supposed to shut down mythbackend when running mythtv-setup

[19:34:34]

sphery:

tgm4883: but... 02.13 14:31:34 <+sphery> and using a remote control in mythbrowser to try to do setup would suck

[19:34:46]

jams:

James2, yeah i think we all agree both would be needed

[19:34:47]

tgm4883:

sphery, ah yes, that would suck

[19:34:51]

sphery:

hehe

[19:35:17]

sphery:

though you're right--and most users probably have a keyboard/mouse they can attach at least temporarily, but I'd prefer to make it easier

[19:35:46]

sphery:

besides, having 2 separate configuration programs (mythtv-setup and mythfrontend settings) is really wrong

[19:35:55]

sphery:

we need to have them all available in one program

[19:36:15]

sphery:

where we could have 2 interfaces for that program--mythui for GUI and web-based through the backend web server

[19:36:40]

James2:

yeah, with both access the ame api exposed by the backend (s)

[19:36:58]

sphery:

users shouldn't have to say, "OK, where would the setting for how much space to reserve on the disks be... in mythtv-setup or in frontend settings?"

[19:37:02]

James2:

i have a greatlittle setup here lol,

[19:37:26]

James2:

primary backend / frontend, dual channel dvb-s2 card, dual channel dvb-t card

[19:37:29]

sphery:

and I shouldn't have to start every single post that tells users where to find the (unfindable) setting they're looking for with "in mythtv-setup" or "in mythfrontend settings" :)

[19:37:48]

James2:

secondary backend/frontend, with dual channel analog tuner with 2 vcr's attached

[19:37:52]

James2:

and 2 additional frontends

[19:38:03]

sphery:

James2: yeah, exactly... one api controlling the configuration

[19:38:17]

James2:

one thing actually, on my new secondary backend

[19:38:34]

James2:

which used to just be a frontend.. it used to have "exit and shutdown now"

[19:38:39]

sphery:

though it's likely that api would be a library that's used by 2 renderers, rather than having the mythui stuff send SOAP requests

[19:38:44]

James2:

but since it was a backend too, i dont get the shutdown option

[19:38:49]

sphery:

(as we still don't have a SOAP client available in mythtv)

[19:39:49]

James2:

how do i add the "exit and shutdown" option to mythtv's exit on a secondary backend (whcih will never have a scheduled recording anyway)

[19:39:53]

sphery:

James2: in mythfrontend settings, there's "Customize exit menu options"

[19:40:10]

sphery:

in the main General settings section

[19:40:48]

sphery:

we default to "do the right thing"--i.e. don't allow a frontend to shut down if there's a backend running on it

[19:41:19]

sphery:

but if you don't mind some user interrupting/breaking your recordings (or can control all those who might say to shut down), you can override it to show it

[19:41:43]

sphery:

(see, unfindable settings :)

[19:43:08]

James2:

;)

[19:43:19]

sphery:

wow, Pandora is kicking into a group of faves... 6 of the last 8 songs were "love it" songs for me

[19:43:39]

James2:

its only connected to 2 vcrs, so shuttign it down will never interrupt a recording

[19:44:04]

James2:

anyone got any suggestions on that front lol, whatwe originally started using mythtv for..

[19:44:25]

James2:

ripping old vhs's to digital format, and possibly on to dvd

[19:44:33]

sphery:

don't use MythTV to do it

[19:44:52]

James2:

lol, its more how to get the vhs into apc

[19:45:01]

sphery:

use cat or dd (with a good encoder, like PVR-x50 or HVR-16x0 or HVR-2250)

[19:45:14]

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[19:45:17]

sphery:

and then put the resulting recording in Video Library

[19:45:26]

James2:

pvr-500 we have, which afaik is 2x pvr-150's on the same card

[19:45:30]

sphery:

right

[19:45:33]

sphery:

that's perfect for it

[19:46:19]

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[19:46:31]

James2:

i (and more to the point the idiot end user that will be doing it) like the idea of "tune myth to channel X", press playn vhs, and get the tape in the rihgt place to start", "then hit record"

[19:46:53]

sphery:

so just configure it (with v4l2ctl or whatever) to use the right input (S-Video or Composite) and then dd if=/dev/video0 of=$HOME/my_first_bath.mpg bs=1M

[19:47:37]

sphery:

and then hit play on the VCR (or do that right before the dd, with some extra stuff before the part you want to keep) and when it's done playing, hit Ctrl-C in the dd terminal

[19:47:58]

sphery:

if you do it in MythTV, you have to fake all sorts of stuff

[19:48:04]

sphery:

a fake video source with No Grabber

[19:48:08]

sphery:

a fake channel

[19:48:12]

James2:

yeah its all done lol

[19:48:17]

sphery:

and a manual recording

[19:48:25]

James2:

channels 198 and 199 are the 2 vcrs ;)

[19:48:28]

sphery:

but it's /much/ better to just do it outside mythtv

[19:48:36]

sphery:

since you'll have no guide data

[19:48:40]

sphery:

mythtv will give it a terrible file name

[19:48:56]

sphery:

and it's really not a recording of a TV broadcast

[19:49:00]

James2:

yeah but the end user and keyboards dont get on

[19:49:02]

sphery:

so it belongs in Video Library

[19:49:07]

James2:

let alone showing him a terminal lol

[19:49:24]

James2:

he doesnt even know what half the damn remote does lol

[19:50:02]

sphery:

I'd recommend bash scripts and EXEC entries in the MythTV menus

[19:50:08]

sphery:

just customize the menu to add stuff

[19:50:33]

sphery:

ideally, that "stuff" would be a single nice, remote-friendly UI that runs the approrpiate commands

[19:51:01]

James2:

yeah "customize the menu to add stuff" now youve lost me lol

[19:51:03]

sphery:

of course, you'd have to create that

[19:51:09]

sphery:

customize the menu with EXEC

[19:51:18]

James2:

customize what menu lol

[19:51:32]

James2:

filename / db table / ???

[19:52:12]

sphery:

grep EXEC /usr/{local/,}share/mythtv/themes/defaultmenu/*.xml

[19:52:29]

sphery:

but don't change defaultmenu... create your own menu theme

[19:52:42]

sphery:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Menu_theme_development_guide

[19:53:16]

sphery:

generally copy the one you're using (likely defaultmenu) into $HOME/.mythtv/themes/ andthen customize to your heart's content

[19:53:58]

sphery:

other menu themes are classic, DVR, mediacentermenu

[19:54:54]

sphery:

note that the difference between EXEC and EXECTV is that EXECTV will "check out" a tuner from mythbackend for as long as the program continues to run--i.e. if you do create a custom GUI for it, you would use EXECTV

[19:55:35]

sphery:

EXEC just runs something and doesn't mess with checking out a tuner... if you don't have one UI that runs the whole time you're using the tuner, you'd either have to check out the tuner differently (i.e. using the Python bindings) or ignore it and hope that mythtv doesn't need the tuner

[19:56:02]

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[19:56:48]

sphery:

(both EXEC and EXECTV are blocking--meaning that if you just run a quick script to start recording, you'll have to "exit" that script (meaning background the actual recording cat/dd process) so that mythtv accepts remote/keyboard input, again)

[19:57:35]

BabThooka:

I am not having luck fetching metadata for my videos on mythtv 0.26 (debian). Where do I troubleshoot it? what log files should I be looking at?

[19:57:40]

sphery:

which means EXECTV or EXEC would be equivalent (since you'd only have checked out the tuner while the script starts the recording, then MythTV wouldn't leave it checked out)

[19:58:01]

sphery:

BabThooka: probably backend log files

[19:58:35]

BabThooka:

yeh, I tried, t'is empty though :s

[19:59:37]

sphery:

James2: FWIW, my last rant on why MythTV is not the right tool for the job for recording from a VCR or whatever: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/232857#232857

[20:00:03]

BabThooka:

I tried to run mythbackend from terminat with args '-v media', but that gave no feedback either when I tried to fetch metadata. Should it have given me feedback there?

[20:00:20]

sphery:

James2: also shows some examples of how to configure the PVR-x50 at the command line (now it's v4l2ctl, instead of ivtvctl) and specifics may be different, but it gives the idea

[20:00:39]

sphery:

BabThooka: media isn't the metadata stuff

[20:00:48]

sphery:

metadata would probably be more like file or something

[20:00:52]

James2:

lol thats the thread i used to set it up in the first place ;)

[20:01:01]

sphery:

hehe

[20:01:05]

James2:

i know its not ideal, but its something the enduser can cope with

[20:01:19]

sphery:

got bored reading before you got to the "so just don't do it" part? :)

[20:01:23]

BabThooka:

Thanks Sphery, will try that now

[20:01:26]

James2:

if it was me, i wouldnt have astuipd gui installed on the pc i was using :P

[20:01:58]

sphery:

yeah, but you could make a GUI pretty easily to run the commands

[20:02:02]

sphery:

and even make it lirc'ed

[20:02:23]

sphery:

technically, we have a plugin in MythTV that's nothing more than a script runner--MythGame

[20:02:42]

sphery:

so you could use that to start and stop recordings

[20:03:13]

sphery:

and could even make a custom menu entry that gives it a better/more-intuitive-for-someone-looking-for-recording-from-a-vcr name than mythgame

[20:04:14]

sphery:

but if you try to record anything > 30min from tape (or, technically, anything that will play across a top-of-the-hour or half-past-the-hour boundary), you'll have to use a manual recording or it will get broken into pieces

[20:04:24]

sphery:

if you're using MythTV's recorder to do it

[20:04:36]

sphery:

which is yet another reason why MythTV's interface is just wrong for it

[20:05:38]

sphery:

since I think you'll find it hard to explain why "I needed to record a 5min clip from it and it broke it into 2 pieces at the 4min point" (because your user started recording the 5-min clip at 56 after the hour, so MythTV started a new "Live TV" program at the top of the hour)

[20:06:13]

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[20:08:51]

BabThooka:

I can see in the log now that it tries to find either an .mxml or a .nfo file. Is it only trying to fetch data locally? Is it not going to themoviedb.org? How I can tell?

[20:09:35]

sphery:

BabThooka: looks like all the logging for metadata is at the general log level (which is available at default logging options)

[20:10:10]

BabThooka:

ok thanks, I'll try that again..

[20:10:20]

sphery:

BabThooka: it uses the file name to extract information it uses to send a query to themoviedb ... see http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythVideo_File_Parsing

[20:10:59]

sphery:

BabThooka: also, http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Video_Library has some important info on metadata lookup and such

[20:13:36]

BabThooka:

Thanks sphery, I went through those two docs already (and a few others).

[20:15:05]

sphery:

unfortunately, I can't provide any more information--I don't have a video collection, so I haven't really used the metadata lookup stuff

[20:16:16]

James2:

tbf sphery, the way ive done it is good for me, and for other apps..

[20:16:29]

BabThooka:

ok. thanks never the less for all your help. T'is mighty kind!

[20:16:32]

James2:

one plugin i would like to write for myth is a "video entry phone" client

[20:17:26]

James2:

user presses bell on gate, every mythtv in the house pops up the gate camera feed in a pip window, and a "open gate" / "piss off" option, which may or may not open the gate before exiting the pip window

[20:17:58]

sphery:

hehe, that would be cool

[20:18:25]

sphery:

especially if it uses a generic notification method (which we need to finish) that allows the notification whether in menu or playback

[20:18:31]

James2:

the camera feed from the gate is standard composite, but im still working out how to get the bell push option out of the videophone and into myth (probably gonna end up as a parallel port input via a relay)

[20:18:49]

James2:

yeah, the pip window should just appear above whatever is on the screen,

[20:19:22]

James2:

and in a different location to the current pip setting, so that if the user already has a pip window open, they still see it as well as the video entry phone

[20:20:44]

James2:

user also has disco lights throughout the house, so another plugin would be X-10 control so that mythmusic can turn lights on/off/change modes

[20:21:01]

James2:

well X-10 control for power, and DMX for light control

[20:21:25]

wagnerrp:

i can't imagine he comes cheap

[20:21:44]

James2:

haha

[20:21:59]

James2:

hed like to but likes his shiny tech too much lol

[20:22:29]

James2:

theres currently a 3 foot long helium filled remote control shark flyig past me on his sofa lol

[20:22:36]

James2:

give you some idea :P

[20:25:09]

jpabq:

sphery: that power supply that flaked on me, was almost 6 years old. It may have been one of the first 80+ efficiency PSUs available.

[20:25:31]

sphery:

wow

[20:25:39]

sphery:

I haven't yet had an 80 plus fail on me

[20:25:48]

sphery:

but I don't think I have any that old

[20:26:51]

jpabq:

I remember it being somewhat expensive at the time.

[20:26:57]

sphery:

hehe, seems I got my first 80 plus in Mar, 2008 – http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/324968#324968

[20:28:07]

wagnerrp:

my desktop still has a "high efficiency" supply from 2005, but it was never 80+ rated

[20:28:22]

sphery:

yeah, I think 80 plus came after 2005

[20:28:48]

sphery:

oh, sorry--Launched in 2004 by Ecos Consulting

[20:28:51]

sphery:

per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_PLUS

[20:29:31]

sphery:

wow, they have a titanium leven, now

[20:29:44]

wagnerrp:

is that like 95%+?

[20:29:50]

sphery:

seems it's 230v only--but has 90% efficiency at 10% even

[20:30:08]

sphery:

I still buy "plain" 80 plus

[20:30:13]

wagnerrp:

something about the higher voltage, but those supplies are always more efficient

[20:30:25]

sphery:

yeah, that's what I've heard

[20:41:21]

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[20:42:31]

James2:

ok, so installing some tools for eclipse

[20:42:41]

James2:

what exactly is myth written in just bog standard c++?

[20:43:47]

wagnerrp:

bog standard c++, with heavy use of the Qt toolset

[20:45:10]

wizbit:

does the original guy who started mythtv still contribute code?

[20:45:28]

wagnerrp:

chutt? not in several years

[20:45:36]

wizbit:

aye ok

[20:46:23]

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[20:58:26]

James2:

any of you use eclipse?

[20:58:36]

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[20:58:44]

James2:

im trying to work out how i create a new "mythtv 0.26-fixes" project, and check its code out from git

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[21:30:34]

sphery:

James2: I'm not sure if anyone has ever gotten Eclipse to work with our code base. I think most devs are using vim/emacs.

[21:30:45]

sphery:

I know one uses Visual Studio

[21:31:02]

James2:

oh ive got it checking out now

[21:31:03]

sphery:

and I think one is using the KDE IDE (whatever it's called)

[21:31:20]

James2:

the github menu jut doesnt work, i just used git and gave it the url

[21:32:18]

sphery:

using an approach like: http://code.mythtv.org/trac/

[21:32:32]

sphery:

make sure if you want stable, you get the fixes/0.26 branch

[21:44:36]

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[21:46:09]

James2:

yeah got it i think lol

[21:46:22]

James2:

i just picked up a linux pc from my office

[21:46:40]

James2:

although i dunno how well mythtv compiles on opensuse, so it might need a reinstall first lol

[21:46:55]

James2:

i suppose with no input cards, myth would be happy on a vm?

[21:47:17]

wagnerrp:

mythtv is not happy with no input cards

[21:47:53]

James2:

i just mean to verify that it compiles ok

[21:48:04]

James2:

before i submit my first patch :P

[21:48:32]

James2:

that will be having made "mythtv-setup --help" actually give a menu instead of complaining it cant open an X screen

[21:50:12]

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[21:51:32]

wagnerrp:

oh? i thought that got fixed...

[21:51:34]

** wagnerrp checks **

[21:52:07]

James2:

its not on my current 0.26-fixes box

[21:52:21]

James2:

maybe somethign that needs backporting from 0.27 then?

[21:52:59]

wagnerrp:

works fine here

[21:53:34]

James2:

from ssh:

[21:53:35]

James2:

michael@myth-bedroom:/data$ mythtv-setup --help

[21:53:35]

James2:

xprop: unable to open display ''

[21:53:35]

James2:

(zenity:19556): Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display:

[21:53:48]

wagnerrp:

yeah, that's not mythtv-setup

[21:54:00]

wagnerrp:

go complain to the mythbuntu people about that one

[21:54:10]

James2:

ah lol

[21:54:35]

wagnerrp:

open mythtv-setup in a text editor to see what is happening

[21:55:13]

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[21:58:17]

James2:

ok what i see is a script file which has an xterm command in it

[21:58:22]

James2:

hence it fails from ssh

[21:58:36]

James2:

i dont see how that is a fault with mythbuntu rather than mythtv though

[21:58:52]

wagnerrp:

because mythtv-setup is a binary application

[21:58:54]

wagnerrp:

not a script

[21:59:00]

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[21:59:08]

tgm4883:

James2, wagnerrp mythtv-setup.real

[21:59:09]

James2:

ah, so they renamed it mythtv-setup.real and added the script i see

[21:59:43]

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[21:59:54]

James2:

as a centos user, i still struggle to seperate out mythbuntu, ubuntu and mythtv parts to their right owners :P

[22:00:55]

keith4_:

that should work if you X forward

[22:01:03]

James2:

so in actual fact the bug im trying to fix doesnt exist :P

[22:01:06]

James2:

nice start lol

[22:01:16]

James2:

im on windows, using putty so that is hard :P

[22:01:59]

James2:

yeah wouldnt ya know, mythtv-setup.real --help works perfectly :P

[22:02:00]

wagnerrp:

i use xterm

[22:02:08]

keith4_:

James2: google "xming"

[22:02:25]

James2:

ever heard of / used winswitch?

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[23:23:54]

red_:

Does anyone have any experience with eti guide data with mythtv in nz for voa/dw/aljazerah – not freeview channels. I have tuned using myth and get the channels but can't get any eti data – just get these errors in the backend logs "DTVChan(/dev/dvb/adapter1/frontend0): SetChannelByString(1): failure" then "TVRec(1): Failed to set channel to 1. Reverting to kState_None."

[23:24:06]

red_:

If I use szap and dvbsnoop I can get the eti data so it exists, have tried 0.25.3 and 0.26.0 with no change, card is the Hauppauge Nova-S

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