Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Thursday, August 30th, 2012, 00:05 UTC

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[00:09:02]

sphery:

ohhh

[00:09:12]

sphery:

yeah, he shouldn't be importing them into Watch Recordings

[00:09:49]

wagnerrp:

unless he's directly replacing the existing file referenced in Watch Recordings

[00:11:29]

sphery:

yeah, maybe my just-sent e-mail will help show the difference

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[00:26:42]

smoothifier:

i'm trying to delete some channels with mythweb but none of my changes are being saved. the page reloads the same as it was before. is this because i'm running php 5.4.5?

[00:34:13]

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[00:58:18]

sphery:

smoothifier: you have PHP configured with too low a limit on parameters for the number of channels you have

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[01:03:34]

sphery:

smoothifier: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/505857#505857 + http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/505915#505915

[01:04:14]

sphery:

possibly others, too, such as request size and ...

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[01:08:50]

smoothifier:

thanks, mike, i'll take a look at that

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[01:11:38]

smoothifier:

i also have this error: [Wed Aug 29 20:51:08 2012] [error] [client 192.168.1.60] PHP Fatal error: require_once(): Failed opening required 'tv.php' (include_path='/usr/local/share/mythtv/bindings/php/:/usr/share/mythtv/bindings/ php/:.:/usr/share/pear:/usr/share/php:/usr/share/mythweb/modules/remote') in /usr/share/mythweb/modules/remote/handler.php on line 100, referer: http://sirius/mythweb/tv/detail/1030/1346283000

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[01:33:17]

smoothifier:

brb gotta relog

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[01:47:48]

boourns:

Does anyone have a few minutes to help me with some issues I'm having configuring Mythbuntu 12.04 to work with an InfiniTV? I've spent the past several days looking at log files and reading support forums to no avail

[01:48:18]

tekdoc:

getting audio dropouts with live TV

[01:48:29]

wagnerrp:

just state what youve done, and where you're running into trouble

[01:48:45]

tekdoc:

same channel recorded plays back clean

[01:49:48]

tekdoc:

any settings I need to look at?

[01:50:46]

** tgm4883 inserts obligatory don't use live tv comment **

[01:51:33]

boourns:

Well, for starters I can't seem to get a channel listing using EIT for FIOS. I set the Channel Frequency table to us-cable, but it doesn't work. I can view video from the InfiniTV card by catting the device to mplayer, so I know the card is working

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[01:51:55]

wagnerrp:

boourns: thats correct, you cannot use EIT with digital cable

[01:52:02]

wagnerrp:

as digital cable does not broadcast EIT data

[01:52:29]

sphery:

for infinitv with cablecard, you need to use Fetch channels from listings provider--it's unscannable

[01:52:41]

wagnerrp:

you must have an external guide data source (schedules direct), and you use that external source to pull a channel list

[01:52:42]

sphery:

and pull the channels from Schedules Direct

[01:53:09]

boourns:

Doesn't that cost a fee?

[01:53:23]

wagnerrp:

$25/yr

[01:53:43]

sphery:

to get the same data that TiVo users pay $15/mo to get

[01:53:50]

boourns:

OK, can I use MythTV without channel listings?

[01:53:55]

sphery:

but really, you're paying $25/yr for a membership

[01:54:00]

sphery:

and getting free listings

[01:54:19]

sphery:

and Schedules Direct then uses the fees to pay the license for the listings data

[01:54:20]

wagnerrp:

boourns: you can insert every single channel into mythtv manually

[01:54:31]

wagnerrp:

and then operate in reduced functionality since you have no guide data

[01:54:34]

sphery:

and any remainder to support Free/Libre and Open Source Software community

[01:55:01]

sphery:

I highly recommend reading: http://www.schedulesdirect.org/aboutus

[01:55:55]

boourns:

Well I don't want to spend any money until I get MythTV working with my card. For the time being, I have manually configured channel 690, but when I attempt to watch live TV, I get an error that it can't lock

[01:56:54]

wagnerrp:

you can sign up for a 7-day trial, with 14 days of guide data past the end of the trial

[01:59:29]

tekdoc:

funny...live TV is one of the things that got me to switch to myth from xbmc

[01:59:30]

sphery:

meaning it will get you 21 days of data/time to think & test

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[02:00:38]

wagnerrp:

tekdoc: he's getting at two points... with a DVR, you are no longer bound to the broadcast schedules, so you may as well watch when you want to watch rather than when it is aired

[02:01:01]

wagnerrp:

and two... livetv usage among the developer base is pretty slim, so it is prone to finicky behavior

[02:01:46]

tekdoc:

I agree for most shows. Live tv for me is usually news and sports.

[02:02:55]

wagnerrp:

is this one combined unit? do you have separate drives for your recordings and OS? do you see this behavior on all channels, or just certain ones?

[02:04:03]

tekdoc:

OS is on SSD, recordings on HDD.

[02:04:18]

wagnerrp:

database is on the ssd as well?

[02:04:28]

wagnerrp:

what type of tuner?

[02:04:36]

tekdoc:

Yes, DB is on SSD

[02:05:06]

tekdoc:

tuner is HVR-1600 (digital)

[02:05:21]

wagnerrp:

so this is broadcast ATSC?

[02:05:25]

tekdoc:

yes

[02:05:40]

wagnerrp:

is the antenna in the same room as you?

[02:06:08]

tekdoc:

I think this is affecting just one channel but I am not 100% sure about that

[02:07:00]

wagnerrp:

is it possible the disrupted recordings are due to you moving around near the antenna, while recordings are typically done in a cleaner environment?

[02:07:05]

tekdoc:

I'm sorry, it's actually connected to cable TV

[02:07:18]

wagnerrp:

if you go back and replay those livetv recordings later, do they still have the audio dropouts?

[02:07:19]

tekdoc:

clear QAM I guess

[02:07:40]

tekdoc:

I'm watching one now and there are no dropouts

[02:07:50]

wagnerrp:

if you hit 'm' in "Watch Recordings", you can remove the livetv filter, and get access to those livetv recordings

[02:08:04]

wagnerrp:

by default, they are deleted roughly a day later, unless you need to free up space prior to that

[02:09:16]

boourns:

So this channel does not support live tv?

[02:09:51]

wagnerrp:

the application supports live tv... none of the people who seem to be active in here currently are experienced in diagnosing troubles with it

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[02:10:26]

tekdoc:

strange thing is that this just started within the last week or so

[02:10:30]

wagnerrp:

technically, there is no such thing as live tv in mythtv

[02:10:33]

wagnerrp:

everything is a recording

[02:10:51]

wagnerrp:

livetv is just a recording with some extra glue to allow the frontend to change channels and guide the tuner

[02:11:37]

wagnerrp:

but it's still stored straight to disk like any other recording, and as such there is a couple second delay

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boourns:

Understood. Well, I guess I could dick around with this more, but I'm just getting more enraged. I don't understand why MythTV has trouble reading a raw MPEG stream from a device when simply catting it to mplayer works. I never thought I'd say this, but it looks like it's Windows Media Center FTW

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[02:17:36]

tekdoc:

boourns gave up too easily

[02:17:42]

wagnerrp:

so rather than just set it up sanely, he has to take an ass backwards manual route, and gets angry when it doesnt work

[02:18:28]

wagnerrp:

the difficulty on those things is getting the tuner card properly paired in the first place

[02:18:52]

wagnerrp:

once youve done that, getting mythtv running is a couple minuted of light effort

[02:19:55]

tekdoc:

starting out with well supported hardware helps a lot

[02:21:18]

tekdoc:

I wasted a lot of time trying to get myth working with a radeon video card

[02:21:41]

wagnerrp:

yeah, ATI had a pretty awful track record

[02:22:17]

tekdoc:

still worthless on Linux in general

[02:23:01]

wagnerrp:

they have been getting progressively better since AMD bought them, but they're still not even on par with Intel drivers

[02:23:49]

tekdoc:

Intel is getting better too

[02:25:08]

tekdoc:

have a good night

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loganrun:

looks like my universal remote has number of codes to choose from

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[18:26:41]

sphery:

devinheitmueller: btw, in case it wasn't clear in my ramblings, I think what the kernel devs are doing is great and is important, but it only really solves the gettings drivers and configuring lircd.conf part of the problem, and the lircrc part of the problem is still an important part and keeping a lircrc-type abstraction still makes sense after these changes (so I don't have to change apps to work with my remote, but configure my remote ...

[18:26:47]

sphery:

... to work with my apps)

[18:27:14]

devinheitmueller:

I hear you.

[18:27:23]

sphery:

the part I disagree with is the app developer and distro maintainer beliefs that the kernel work will solve the whole problem

[18:27:42]

devinheitmueller:

Just trying to figure out how to provide a user-friendly solution, and I do believe the duplication of functionality between the kernel and LIRC causes a huge amount of confusion.

[18:27:51]

sphery:

agreed

[18:28:05]

devinheitmueller:

In particular when it comes to the definition of the RC profiles.

[18:28:30]

sphery:

and, yeah, I don't have any solutions for making it user-friendly... best I've seen is what mythbuntu does, but it would need to be standardized and picked up by all distros to work effectively

[18:28:58]

sphery:

and I'm sure there's much more to that than I realize (including problems I don't see)

[18:32:40]

loganrun:

o.k. dir

[18:34:09]

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[18:34:56]

loganrun:

o.k. some of the keys on the remote produce output

[18:35:22]

loganrun:

It looks like I probably need rc_keymaps, but I don't see that folder on my new system

[18:39:02]

loganrun:

copied over my old rc_keymaps directory but I have not idea how to get that assigned to the remote

[18:39:06]

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[18:52:13]

loganrun:

I think I need to somehow get it to read my rc_keymaps file, not sure how to do that

[18:56:18]

sphery:

loganrun: this is the whole, "different distros manage it differently," part devin heitmueller was mentioning, so your best bet is to find someone who's using your distro and ask them how to configure it

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[18:57:29]

SteveGoodey:

loganrun: It's not done via /etc/lirc/hardware.conf is it? REMOTE_DEVICE

[19:10:18]

ServerSage:

So I'm curious, in 0.26 will the HLS stuff be a bit more...user friendly? Currently creating a stream is a painful process of figuring out what recording 3017_20120729102900.mpg is.

[19:11:50]

wagnerrp:

the HLS stuff is really a backend in search of a good interface

[19:12:07]

wagnerrp:

there is the same application built into the backend webserver that can be used to spawn streams

[19:12:22]

wagnerrp:

but someone needs to spend the time and write support into mythweb or something similar

[19:12:27]

tgm4883:

ServerSage, HLS requires a frontend..... and wagnerrp beat me to it

[19:12:55]

tgm4883:

for instance, the iOS or Android clients

[19:13:05]

tgm4883:

eventually the Unity scope/lens

[19:13:21]

ServerSage:

So before somebody goes charging forth into the night to rescue the HLS Damsel in distress, is there work being done to include it in mythweb already? We wouldn't want a valiant knight to recreate the wheel.

[19:13:32]

wagnerrp:

well there should be no need for a dedicated ios/android client, unless they want to provide features beyond what is capable in html

[19:13:49]

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[19:13:54]

wagnerrp:

might want to talk to Captain_Murdoch, i believe he has plans for such

[19:14:10]

wagnerrp:

jams: server got restarted this morning, im not sure if anyone started smolt back up

[19:14:16]

** tgm4883 shrugs **

[19:15:01]

Captain_Murdoch:

hlstest.qsp page on the backend is functional, I use it occasionally. once I get on-demand working, then MythWeb will have support, but I decided to spend time on on-demand rather than dealing with the AJAX to start/stop/etc. in MythWeb.

[19:16:00]

Captain_Murdoch:

ServerSage, when I get on-demand working, MythWeb support is already 95% done in a patch I have to allow playing via JW Player (the same player used in the hlstest.qsp page).

[19:16:43]

ServerSage:

Captain_Murdoch: I think you just made my day. I assume this will be a 0.26-fixes or 0.27 kind of timeline, 'eh?

[19:16:47]

Captain_Murdoch:

I had hardly any dev time between 0.25 and 0.26 because I was in the middle of a cross-country move.

[19:16:48]

Captain_Murdoch:

0.27

[19:17:07]

ServerSage:

Captain_Murdoch: Where did you move from/to?

[19:17:42]

Captain_Murdoch:

and the on-demand stuff will make it easy to integrate with any 3rd party app since the app will just 'play' the playlist http://backendip:6544/HLS/whatever_the_filename_is.mpg.hlsd.m3u8

[19:17:47]

Captain_Murdoch:

Virginia to Washington

[19:18:19]

ServerSage:

Awesome. I'm giddy and excited to be able to watch football while travelling. lol

[19:18:31]

ServerSage:

Wowzers, VA to WA is one heck of a move.

[19:19:06]

Captain_Murdoch:

was in a temp place in VA 6 weeks so my daughter could finish K5 then 2 weeks vacation drive cross-country, so I was very limited for 2 months, then still getting settled in here so gradually getting back up to speed.

[19:20:09]

ServerSage:

Sounds like you did it right. When I moved from MI to CA I quit my job in MI, took 3 days to drive across the country, then start my job in CA 2 days after that.

[19:21:11]

Captain_Murdoch:

I posted a message today on -users mailing list, I have the basics of on-demand working, I can point Safari on my iPhone at a .m3u8 URL and it will generate the meta playlist, profile playlist, and stream segments on demand and start playing on the iPhone. still need to work out some issues on the encoder side though due to the on-demand nature compared to mythtranscodes 'start to finish' method.

[19:22:36]

ServerSage:

You have me drooling with excitement. I can't wait.

[19:22:39]

jams:

wagnerrp- restarted it...back to work now

[19:23:10]

ServerSage:

Anyway, lunch time. Thanks for the update Captain_Murdoch. Really appreciate it, and all the hard work.

[19:23:26]

Captain_Murdoch:

yw

[19:32:52]

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[19:44:14]

smoothifier:

it looks like i'm running into the time-warner copy-once nearly every channel problem. i switched back to my old provider who has copy freely on just about everything. just have to wait for them to come out. :)

[19:45:11]

smoothifier:

i hadn't had digital cable until this point so i wasn't following the various threads on the list.

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[19:58:31]

devinheitmueller:

Grrr.. Users losing their minds over a half watt of power consumption.

[20:00:12]

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[20:04:43]

wagnerrp:

over the course of a year, thats like $0.50 wasted

[20:04:54]

wagnerrp:

50 pennies saved are 50 pennies closer to an early grave

[20:05:37]

devinheitmueller:

The funny thing is that it's entirely a hypothetical argument he's making. He's saying "tuners consume too much power" without having any specific grievances with any specific tuners.

[20:06:14]

sphery:

but, hey, I'll just set up a 5W max raspberry pi as a dedicated transcoder and all is well!

[20:06:24]

devinheitmueller:

heh.

[20:06:47]

devinheitmueller:

In fairness, my MediaMVP-HD only consumed about 4 watts doing 1080p playback.

[20:07:06]

sphery:

yeah, there's a thread on list where someone is talking about using it as a transcoder

[20:07:10]

devinheitmueller:

Oh, might have been 4.5 watts now that I think about it.

[20:07:20]

devinheitmueller:

I saw.

[20:07:25]

sphery:

but, TTBOMK, it has dedicated hardware for decode, but you'd still be doing encode on cpu

[20:07:30]

sphery:

(and without the benefit of FPU)

[20:07:44]

devinheitmueller:

Oh, I assumed it had an H.264 encoder block onboard.

[20:08:01]

devinheitmueller:

If not, doing *encode* on the CPU is never going to happen.

[20:08:11]

devinheitmueller:

Encode is *significantly* more expensive than decode.

[20:08:41]

devinheitmueller:

I would be very surprised if it were doing the encode in software.

[20:08:54]

devinheitmueller:

(especially if they are providing the codecs)

[20:08:58]

sphery:

ah, guess it does have encode hardware

[20:09:30]

sphery:

so it just needs an encoder application based on openmax

[20:10:20]

sphery:

based on http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1839

[20:10:37]

devinheitmueller:

I can say though that even with a hardware encoder, doing transcode is *very* annoying to get right. It took months to get the transcoder working on the Hauppauge Broadway, and that was with people working on it full time.

[20:11:26]

devinheitmueller:

People think this crap is easy because they saw a block diagram with data going into a decoder, then out, then back to an encoder, and thus it *must* be easy.

[20:12:00]

sphery:

yeah, but that's proprietary software development... just wait 'til you see how open source works

[20:12:08]

devinheitmueller:

So it will take years then?

[20:12:12]

sphery:

I'm pretty sure the belief is, "I wish and then someone else does the work."

[20:12:51]

devinheitmueller:

heh

[20:12:53]

sphery:

IMHO, it will become possible and reliable in F/LOSS about the time a general-purpose CPU makes it irrelevant

[20:13:13]

stuartm:

probably the case, everyone loves the concept of open source but a tiny minority are actually willing to get their hands dirty

[20:13:18]

sphery:

for exactly the reason you said--it's not easy (otherwise, we'd have been doing it for a long time)

[20:13:48]

devinheitmueller:

The Broadway is actually far more open than the Raspberry Pi for something like this – it's also alot more expensive. Built on Linux, all the drivers are GPL, etc.

[20:13:59]

sphery:

nice

[20:14:02]

devinheitmueller:

(including the drivers for the transcoder)

[20:14:29]

sphery:

but how can "more open" be more expensive? I thought open meant free... ;?

[20:14:33]

sphery:

er, ;)

[20:14:36]

devinheitmueller:

heh.

[20:14:57]

** sphery is probably a bit jaded **

[20:15:09]

stuartm:

and of that tiny minority, an minuscule fraction have the experience and ability to solve the "really difficult stuff"â„¢

[20:15:09]

sphery:

I just need to actually make some time to work on some F/LOSS code to find the love, again

[20:15:24]

sphery:

stuartm: yeah, definitely

[20:15:30]

devinheitmueller:

I actually considered building a module to support the Broadway as a straight transcoder. But in reality the value just isn't there given most CPUs can do the job anyway.

[20:15:59]

sphery:

and of that fraction, an even smaller fraction is willing to work with others/incorporate into existing projects versus approaching it in a way that preserves full control for themselves :)

[20:16:26]

devinheitmueller:

Yup, the real world is a b**ch.

[20:16:27]

stuartm:

definitely a lot of big egos and control freaks

[20:16:39]

sphery:

yeah, especially among the most-talented

[20:16:54]

sphery:

(which may explain why I've never had a huge desire for control? :)

[20:17:06]

stuartm:

heh

[20:18:55]

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[20:19:07]

sphery:

so, the things that's most annoying about the "Even 500ma at 5v (2.5w) is significant to me – I'm trying to build the lowest power machine possible, and 7.5w for three tuners is almost as much as the whole rest of the system..." thinking is that this guy basically took a car from 40MPG to 80MPG and says, "Wow, look at the savings!", and seems to think he'll get the same savings going from 80MPG to 160MPG, which is totally wrong

[20:19:52]

stuartm:

I'm not that smart or talented, and even if I were and just didn't know it, I'm far too lazy to put in the required effort

[20:19:54]

sphery:

like wagnerrp said, 0.5W ~= $0.50/yr... so even if he saves the whole 7.5W, that's $7.50/yr

[20:19:56]

devinheitmueller:

Hmmm, maybe I should start a Kickstarter to get MythTV running on the Pi. I wonder what that would bring in....

[20:20:08]

sphery:

and he'd be a /lot/ better off not worrying about it and just shutting off the machine when not in use

[20:20:14]

devinheitmueller:

... seems like that's a pretty popular ask...

[20:20:46]

sphery:

hehe, would probably be pretty popular

[20:21:00]

devinheitmueller:

Popular yes, but I wonder *how* popular...

[20:21:18]

sphery:

but the problem is you'd still need another (real) system for MySQL and storage

[20:21:19]

stuartm:

only one way to find out

[20:21:48]

sphery:

of course, the way others tend to tell it, that doesn't count toward the power numbers you quote

[20:22:50]

devinheitmueller:

Yeah, I don't see how he could save three streams to disk with the host only drawing a little more than 7.5 watts.

[20:22:51]

stuartm:

sphery: depends whether we're talking backend, frontend or both at the same time – I can't see the latter being possible at all, if it's just the backend it could handle mysql as well but stuff like EIT would be off the table

[20:23:25]

sphery:

I figured the CPU would be too much of a slouch for backend + MySQL

[20:23:39]

sphery:

I could see it being a backend no problem (especially a remote backend)

[20:24:06]

sphery:

and probably a master backend with "reasonable" channel lineups

[20:24:21]

sphery:

(and not a lot of varied video sources)

[20:24:28]

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[20:24:50]

sphery:

frontend wouldn't be a problem once you got memory usage down and openmax support (for UI + video playback)

[20:25:17]

stuartm:

back in the day justinh used to drag along a very old machine to Linuxworld et al which ran frontend and backend, I'd guess that it was only marginally more powerful than the CPU in the Pi

[20:25:34]

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[20:25:47]

stuartm:

it was the demo machine

[20:26:08]

sphery:

wagnerrp: didn't you once name an x86 cpu that was about equivalent to the Pi's?

[20:26:40]

stuartm:

I think it's doable, especially if a little effort were put in to pare down and optimise some of the querying that we do

[20:27:13]

sphery:

we do need to break apart the backend, too, to make it easier

[20:27:55]

sphery:

separate out the scheduler and the job queue and ... parts to separate binaries and then just run the ones you need on each system

[20:28:34]

stuartm:

there's plenty of room for improvement, it's just the work involved and the fact that it would produce no noticeable benefits for 99% of users using modern desktop hardware

[20:29:30]

sphery:

I really need to create that mythtvd (MythTV daemon runner) to start the right binaries (at which point we could cut out the jobqueue stuff, since we already have mythjobqueue)... and it would likely make the whole mythlogserver thing much easier (it could start mythlogserver rather than the "start up automatically by whatever app sends a log message first and shut down after 5s of no log messages" or whatever

[20:29:45]

stuartm:

sphery: well you know how I feel about that, there's a fine line between 'better' and 'complicated'

[20:29:58]

sphery:

I don't think it would be complicated at all

[20:29:59]

stuartm:

or as it's more commonly stated, perfect is the enemy of good

[20:30:09]

sphery:

user just configures things, then we start the things they've configured

[20:30:30]

sphery:

so if they configured it as the master backend, mythtvd starts mythscheduler

[20:30:41]

sphery:

if they configured the host to allow running jobs, it starts mythjobqueue

[20:30:43]

sphery:

and so on

[20:30:47]

stuartm:

sphery: all the inter-process communication, the fuckup that you know packagers would make of it etc?

[20:31:27]

stuartm:

not that I really want to get into that argument all over again, I know I'm in a minority of one on that subject

[20:31:29]

sphery:

hehe, well, the parts I'm looking at all basically have the IPC stuff worked out for master->remote communications, anyway

[20:31:44]

tgm4883:

MOAR PACKAGES!

[20:31:49]

stuartm:

I'll just focus on more visible improvements

[20:32:06]

sphery:

but I do agree we don't get to control the packaging, and the whole "split it up so that users don't waste 5MB of HDD space" doesn't lend itself to "just works"

[20:32:07]

tgm4883:

mythtv-backend-scheduler, mythtv-backend-jobqueue, mythtv-backend-metadatagrabber

[20:32:17]

sphery:

hehe

[20:33:15]

stuartm:

tgm4883: you're joking, but you know that it will happen on some distros and I don't even want to think about the support requests we'll recieve for Gentoo

[20:34:00]

tgm4883:

stuartm, half joking. We'd probably do that for Mythbuntu

[20:34:25]

tgm4883:

at least separating out some of the ones that make sense

[20:35:47]

stuartm:

the irony is that in splitting things up would actually increase the user perception of bloat, I can see the comments now "I thought I'd try MythTV but packman wants to install 50 packages, looks like a bloated poc, <insert other software> only has 5 dependencies"

[20:36:15]

tgm4883:

stuartm, users are dumb

[20:36:36]

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[20:37:33]

stuartm:

not something we can change, we just have to keep that in mind when making decisions

[20:40:41]

tgm4883:

stuartm, but ideally, I don't want a user to drop down to the command line and see all that

[20:41:03]

tgm4883:

I want them to configure the mythtv installed components from MCC

[20:41:07]

stuartm:

I'd generally use the term 'dumb', but it's more accurate to say 'uninformed'

[20:41:43]

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[20:43:01]

stuartm:

I remember when Mandriva made the decision to split up some tex (or something) related packages, overnight one single ~100MB package became a couple of hundred ~500KB packages ... that didn't go down too well, especially since they were all still required dependencies

[20:44:34]

tgm4883:

stuartm, that seems better to me, specifically since if there is an update to 1 of the 500KB packages, I don't have to download 100MB again

[20:44:52]

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[20:48:01]

sphery:

tgm4883: so is splitting up mythtv into separate parts to save you guys bandwidth or to save a few MB on users' HDD?

[20:48:18]

sphery:

if the former, you should split it however you like, but make all of the packages dependent on the others

[20:48:35]

sphery:

as, really, the difference between a full frontend and backend install is < 10MB

[20:48:57]

tgm4883:

sphery, mostly for configuration

[20:49:14]

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[20:49:22]

tgm4883:

so we from a packaging standpoint can depend on the right things for master backends vs slave backends

[20:49:43]

devinheitmueller:

Certainly one advantage is that if the packages are split up, you won't have to cross-compile the huge set of dependencies that the backend requires.

[20:49:47]

sphery:

but the thing is that each system should have all the mythtv parts in place

[20:49:57]

sphery:

then you just configure it as either a master or remote

[20:50:19]

sphery:

(granted, you can have a separate remote backend package that doesn't pull in mysql and such, but still, all of mythtv should be installed)

[20:50:21]

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[20:50:41]

sphery:

I just don't get why you need to split out "frontend only" and "backend only" parts

[20:50:54]

sphery:

and even the X libs are small

[20:51:22]

devinheitmueller:

In my mind it's not about the size of the runtime binaries, it's about the number of dependencies.

[20:51:23]

sphery:

even MiniMyth always puts all of MythTV on systems: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/507803#507803

[20:51:30]

stuartm:

most of the dependencies are in the libs not the binaries, so splitting them up won't help there

[20:51:36]

sphery:

right

[20:51:39]

tgm4883:

sphery, how do we install mysql then?

[20:51:42]

devinheitmueller:

Yes, the libs would have to be split up as well.

[20:51:42]

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[20:52:22]

tgm4883:

sphery, we make it a depends on the master backend package

[20:52:33]

sphery:

so do the same

[20:52:50]

tgm4883:

sphery, further, when backend setup goes web only, the frontend package will depend on X stuff and the backend package won't

[20:52:59]

sphery:

but split out the master backend package from the actual mythtv code

[20:53:13]

stuartm:

yay, even more libs

[20:53:15]

sphery:

oh, the backend package stil will

[20:53:21]

sphery:

unless you guys split up Qt

[20:53:36]

sphery:

*and* you write patches to change our code to only use the core Qt libs in backend

[20:53:52]

stuartm:

We in the rabbit hole now

[20:53:52]

tgm4883:

we aren't going to carry extra patches

[20:54:06]

sphery:

basically Qt needs X libs

[20:54:11]

sphery:

MythTV needs Qt

[20:54:20]

sphery:

therefore, MythTV--backend or frontend--needs X

[20:54:41]

tgm4883:

sphery, well that is unfortunate

[20:54:51]

sphery:

(oh, and it would require patches to change our code to split up libs so that we have non-X libs and X libs and to only link certain apps against certain libs)

[20:54:54]

devinheitmueller:

Doesn't Qt have a split between the UI parts and all the other core libs (e.g. networking, base calasses etc)?

[20:55:00]

sphery:

tgm4883: it's just the X libs, though

[20:55:04]

sphery:

like 10MB on disk

[20:55:17]

sphery:

you don't need the Xorg server app

[20:55:24]

sphery:

nor any client apps like xterm, etc

[20:55:30]

tgm4883:

sphery, yea that's what I meant :)

[20:55:49]

sphery:

but what I'd like to say is that there's one package for mythtv code that always installs all the mythtv code

[20:56:01]

sphery:

it's required by all the different packages you make

[20:56:36]

sphery:

you have a mythtv-backend package that requires things like MySQL and X libs and ... /and/ the mythtv-apps-and-libs package (with all apps and libs)

[20:56:39]

** stuartm goes to focus on real problems affecting real users every single day **

[20:56:56]

sphery:

then mythtv-frontend requires X libs and X server and X client apps and mythtv-apps-and-libs

[20:56:59]

sphery:

or whatever

[20:57:05]

tgm4883:

sphery, yes that is how we do it

[20:57:16]

sphery:

but you don't always install all mythtv apps and libs

[20:57:23]

tgm4883:

which I wouldn't want to change

[20:57:31]

tgm4883:

I see what you are saying

[20:57:40]

sphery:

because you need those 3MB?

[20:57:44]

tgm4883:

is there a reason to install things that aren't necessary?

[20:57:55]

sphery:

because a) they don't hurt anything

[20:58:04]

sphery:

and b) (and most importantly) who says they're not necessary

[20:58:08]

tgm4883:

sphery, does it hurt something when they are removed?

[20:58:29]

** tgm4883 shrugs **

[20:58:38]

tgm4883:

I didn't do the mythtv packaging for Ubuntu

[20:58:43]

tgm4883:

that is a superm1 question I think

[20:58:43]

sphery:

because users are constantly saying, "mythtv doesn't work" and that's become something that's necessary isn't installed

[20:58:53]

sphery:

anyway, that's what I would like to see

[20:59:18]

tgm4883:

sphery, if we installed it with every package, we'll need a bunch of complicated conflicts/replaces

[20:59:22]

sphery:

mainly because no matter how we change things in the future, the user always gets all the required parts

[20:59:39]

sphery:

and we don't have to constantly worry about, "is this a frontend or backend thing"

[20:59:46]

sphery:

(when the vast majority is actually a both thing)

[21:00:12]

tgm4883:

debian will go "I can't install package X because file Y in package X also exists in the installed package Z"

[21:00:37]

sphery:

I have to admit I don't know debian/apt/whatever or packaging in general, but it seems to me that it's currently structured upside down

[21:01:10]

tgm4883:

sphery, we could make 2 packages Master and Not-Master

[21:01:16]

tgm4883:

but that just seems weird

[21:01:54]

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[21:02:05]

tgm4883:

sphery, it makes more sense to me to only install the components that are necessary.

[21:02:13]

stuartm:

there's something to be said for users not continually going to use a feature for the first time only to find that it doesn't work and they have to get up off the sofa, to their computer and install a new package, configure and restart the backend/frontend while their wife/girlfriend is sat rolling her eyes

[21:02:26]

tgm4883:

now if MythTV is just a single component, maybe that is a conversation to have. But it isn't

[21:02:41]

tgm4883:

MythTV at the least is made up of FE, SBE, MBE

[21:02:49]

sphery:

where you try to say that different parts of mythtv code have different lower-level library/application requirements

[21:03:01]

sphery:

but in reality, different mythtv-configurations have different lower-level library/application requirements

[21:03:14]

stuartm:

there's the ideal from a technical pov and then there's the real world, where users don't care about technical matters, they want it to just work

[21:03:16]

tgm4883:

stuartm, with that arguments, lets just "apt-get install *"

[21:03:34]

stuartm:

tgm4883: yep, and why not? :)

[21:03:47]

sphery:

so separate out mythtv-configurations as you like and put all the mythtv code together in one package, since generally all mythtv code has the exact same library requirements

[21:03:49]

tgm4883:

stuartm, I... can't even dignify that with a response

[21:04:21]

sphery:

anyway, I will admit that *buntu does it better than any other distro I know of

[21:04:21]

tgm4883:

sphery, stuartm I have to go test multicasting in a lab, but would love to continue this conversation later

[21:04:24]

stuartm:

if disk space was no object, who wouldn't really see that as a better approach?

[21:04:35]

sphery:

(save, perhaps, MiniMyth--but that's more of an appliance than a distro)

[21:04:44]

tgm4883:

stuartm, people that have less RAM

[21:04:51]

stuartm:

tgm4883: huh>?

[21:04:52]

sphery:

tgm4883: install != run :)

[21:04:59]

stuartm:

exactly, wtf

[21:05:10]

sphery:

(though some package management apps may not see the difference)

[21:05:23]

smoothifier:

one day i'll get around to trying ubuntu for mythtv. i just got so comfortable with fedora for mythdora. i run ubuntu on my laptop, though.

[21:05:27]

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[21:05:40]

sphery:

besides, Debian (and *buntu) are the ones who are trying to go to the "multi-arch" installs, right?

[21:06:01]

tgm4883:

sphery, stuartm right, so what you are saying is that we (packagers) need to have a crap ton of conflicts/provides/replaces + logic that starts/stops the different services when things are installed but aren't meant to run

[21:06:04]

sphery:

that would be installing code for multiple architectures on a file system, even though the system is likely just one

[21:06:13]

stuartm:

the adage "It's better to have something and not need it, than need it and not have it", seems applicable here

[21:06:27]

tgm4883:

and all that is apparently easier than just not installing things you aren't using

[21:06:34]

tgm4883:

yea, I'm going to pass on that

[21:06:34]

stuartm:

tgm4883: we're not asking you to start anything except the backend/frontend

[21:06:46]

sphery:

tgm4883: well, from that perspective, the mythtvd will help out--it will start only what's necessary on the system

[21:06:56]

tgm4883:

sphery, and that is in 0.26?

[21:07:10]

sphery:

so packagers will only have to start mythtvd and mythfrontend for the user

[21:07:16]

sphery:

no, it's "on the drawing board"

[21:07:35]

sphery:

(or, really, I know exactly what I want in it/how to do it, but just need to write it)

[21:07:36]

stuartm:

well actually I'm saying don't split everything up, it's a pointless exercise that leads to very dark places much like this conversation

[21:07:39]

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[21:07:53]

tgm4883:

sphery, I'm not breaking existing functionality for something I can't even test yet

[21:08:01]

stuartm:

I say the status quo is fine and there are bigger fish to fry

[21:08:06]

sphery:

ok, so we'll revisit after mythtvd

[21:08:16]

tgm4883:

stuartm, we already split everything up

[21:08:18]

sphery:

but, yeah, like I said, mythbuntu does it better than others

[21:08:31]

sphery:

it's definitely the most user friendly one I've seen

[21:08:34]

stuartm:

tgm4883: that's your choice, not something we're mandating

[21:08:44]

tgm4883:

anyway, I really do have to run. Ping me later (or shoot me an email) if you want to discuss further

[21:08:45]

** tgm4883 out **

[21:08:50]

sphery:

later

[21:09:57]

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[21:10:02]

stuartm:

I say let's all put all our energy towards improving the UX, which I just don't see this project doing (perhaps the opposite with all the potential for new bugs and packaging issues)

[21:10:30]

** stuartm likes to dream **

[21:10:59]

** stuartm decides to open a beer and chill out by watching some TV **

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[21:25:06]

sphery:

hehe, yeah, improving the UX would be a good thing

[21:26:05]

sphery:

and I just like the split up functionality approach because it seems the best approach to support users' desire to run on tiny/underpowered devices

[21:26:14]

sphery:

versus making a single "do everything" binary, like we have now

[21:26:36]

sphery:

(but that's splitting into separate apps, not separate packages :)

[21:31:02]

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[22:10:08]

n1md4:

evening. I'm still trying to get the Snowboard remote working with a Nova-T 500. Here is a short list of log files with lirc in them http://pastie.org/4618997

[22:11:06]

n1md4:

Not that the last entry in mythfrontend.log was when I copied .lircrc from the wiki to my home file.

[22:11:18]

n1md4:

s/Not/Note/

[22:11:20]

loganrun:

o.k. I think I have my remote control producing the right keys now. I am not sure what to do next, I was trying to get lircd started but so far no luck

[22:12:05]

n1md4:

loganrun: maybe you can help me with mine then :P

[22:13:25]

n1md4:

I'll add, my remote doesn't seem to work at all. So my question is this, apart from there being a file /dev/lircd -> /var/run/lirc/lircd what are the basics to get remotes working?

[22:16:35]

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[22:17:02]

loganrun:

well, I don't quite understand it but have found some links: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zC5vDLQmF . . . DyO2Gc/edit, and http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=101151

[22:17:11]

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[22:17:22]

loganrun:

sorry forget the first one

[22:17:38]

loganrun:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/LIRC

[22:18:15]

n1md4:

loganrun: thanks for those, I'll take a look. I have read through the mythtv.org link.

[22:18:55]

loganrun:

seems like the remote control stuff has been integrated into the kernel. seems like ir-keytable write the keys to like the keyboard does

[22:19:15]

loganrun:

then I think you need to connect lircd once you get the right keys output from the remote

[22:19:44]

loganrun:

but I can't seem to get lircd to run on ubuntu

[22:20:16]

n1md4:

I've run evtest and don't get *any* codes from the remote :\

[22:20:43]

loganrun:

what does ir-keytable -t give

[22:20:50]

loganrun:

what does 'ir-keytable -t' give

[22:21:23]

loganrun:

where is your ir sensor

[22:21:57]

Twiggy2cents:

Have you tried irrecord?

[22:22:11]

Twiggy2cents:

From what I understand it prints out raw IR codes

[22:22:15]

loganrun:

I can't seem to get lircd running

[22:22:57]

Twiggy2cents:

what happens if you do su -c 'lircd' ?

[22:24:20]

n1md4:

loganrun: ir-keytable -t gives me nothing, and I'm using a remote that's got a 3.5m jack connected to the card on one end, and an IR sensor on the other.

[22:25:03]

n1md4:

I have also noticed I don't have /dev/lirc0. I don't have /dev/lircd though.

[22:26:25]

Twiggy2cents:

n1md4, I think that different distros put lirc in different places

[22:26:50]

Twiggy2cents:

Once it is all going you need to make sure mythttv is reading from the right socket

[22:30:48]

n1md4:

Twiggy2cents: rerunning dpkg-reconfigure lirc I get a option to select IR transmitter. Can you help me with that?

[22:31:14]

Twiggy2cents:

maybe, what is your issue with it?

[22:31:56]

n1md4:

just a list of transmitters to select from; as I say, I've the Nova-T 500 dual and Snowboard remote.

[22:32:50]

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[22:33:01]

n1md4:

I really don't know what, or if, I should be trying to configure here; there is an option for none.

[22:39:34]

Twiggy2cents:

So which one are you wanting to shoot a signal at? the reciever for the Nova-T or the Snowboard receiver?

[22:47:55]

n1md4:

the Nova-T, I suppose

[22:48:54]

n1md4:

Anyway, too late to play now. Fight again another day :) Thanks for the assist, I'll get there eventually.

[22:58:17]

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[23:29:59]

frontrange:

Hi, having a problem with a mythfrontend during setup. Test of the connection to the backend gives me a <urlopen error [Erno 111] Connection refused. Any ideas? This is mythbuntu 11.04

[23:30:37]

wagnerrp:

is your backend running?

[23:31:17]

SmallR2002_:

if it is, grab it and bring it back

[23:31:42]

frontrange:

Yes, it is running and displaying livetv fine

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[23:56:53]

frontrange:

Backend appears to be working, but I don't see anything bound to port 3306. WTF?

[23:57:30]

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MythLogBot@irc.freenode.net :: #mythtv-users

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