Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Sunday, April 17th, 2011, 00:00 UTC

[00:00:26]

mycoDA:

what vdpau filters do you guys use, and what kind of screen?

[00:02:03]

mycoDA:

wagnerrp? iamlindoro? you guys always seem to have things down

[00:04:14]

wizbit:

how long ago was mythtv .22 released?

[00:04:23]

wagnerrp:

late 2009

[00:04:34]

wizbit:

actually it was before that

[00:04:41]

wizbit:

.18

[00:04:56]

wizbit:

it was when debian sarge was around

[00:05:37]

wizbit:

mythtv wakes me up every morning to BBC news

[00:05:50]

wizbit:

on my joggler

[00:05:56]

iamlindoro:

mycoDA, I don't really use any of the filters at this point, since studio color is togglable live in the player, and the buffer size no longer needs to be set in the development code, and those were the only two I ever used

[00:06:00]

mycoDA:

they are hard and strict???

[00:06:33]

wizbit:

mycoDA: they can be if you dont contribute

[00:06:45]

mycoDA:

what buffer level did you use?

[00:06:50]

wizbit:

32k

[00:06:56]

iamlindoro:

mycoDA, I don't any more, it's no longer needed in master

[00:07:25]

mycoDA:

y i asked did, still on fixes

[00:07:36]

iamlindoro:

ah, did, I misread

[00:07:36]

wagnerrp:

mycoDA: no, dustybin/wizbit strangely found it fun to continually pester iamlindoro

[00:07:45]

iamlindoro:

I think I had it at ~30?

[00:07:46]

wagnerrp:

which would subsequently take offense and kick or ban

[00:07:58]

wizbit:

iamlindoro: i have nosed at your website with regards to fitness

[00:08:39]

wizbit:

iamlindoro: i now have even more respect than before.

[00:09:30]

mycoDA:

the denoise filter seems to be good for a lot of aussie tv, often overcompressed, which then needs sharpen to look ok lol

[00:09:39]

mycoDA:

really want a deblocking filter i spose

[00:10:21]

mycoDA:

hard not to respect the guys here – apart from a few rogue attitudes they REALLY know their stuff, and strive to help

[00:14:38]

wizbit:

i would like to help, but i might get killed in the process

[00:14:57]

mycoDA:

only if they can find you

[00:15:06]

wizbit:

:P

[00:15:08]

mycoDA:

i have a continental divide to help there :D

[00:16:59]

wizbit:

if i get banned or de-voiced here, i dont mind, i still love everything, im a lazy git

[00:17:45]

mycoDA:

well – that at least says something for the ease of myth – even a lazy git can do it :P

[00:18:07]

wagnerrp:

mycoDA: actually, weve got a couple devs over your way

[00:18:28]

mycoDA:

ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnn

[00:18:33]

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[00:18:42]

mycoDA:

heh – they will never find me in this one horse town

[00:19:30]

wagnerrp:

by 'your way', i mean somewhere at that same giant island

[00:20:05]

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[00:20:25]

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[00:20:42]

wizbit:

.24 has been 100% rock solid, the only issue i have is the odd buffer time out

[00:21:18]

wizbit:

maybe dodgy signal caused that

[00:21:39]

mycoDA:

hopefully i shall join em some day

[00:22:18]

wizbit:

aye up

[00:22:57]

mycoDA:

where you form wizbit?

[00:23:06]

wizbit:

Essex

[00:23:08]

wizbit:

UK

[00:23:16]

mycoDA:

fair one

[00:23:21]

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[00:23:39]

wizbit:

are you american?

[00:23:58]

mycoDA:

:O you take that back :P

[00:24:04]

wizbit:

:D

[00:24:23]

wizbit:

most folk here are US

[00:24:35]

wagnerrp:

clearly you missed the 'giant island' comment

[00:24:42]

wizbit:

:D

[00:24:58]

wagnerrp:

as in "the island you live on is comparatively puny"

[00:25:05]

wizbit:

:-S

[00:25:51]

wizbit:

does justin still come here?

[00:26:08]

wizbit:

the northerner

[00:26:18]

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[00:26:36]

wagnerrp:

!seen justin

[00:26:36]

MythLogBot:

justin has not been seen here

[00:26:41]

wagnerrp:

guess not

[00:27:01]

wizbit:

:-(

[00:27:19]

mycoDA:

actually, i live in the largest area country in the world

[00:27:22]

wizbit:

he was the first guy who helped me with some myth problems

[00:27:32]

mycoDA:

justinh?

[00:27:35]

wizbit:

yep

[00:27:38]

mycoDA:

the cranky one?

[00:27:41]

wizbit:

aye!

[00:28:02]

mycoDA:

he needs to get more info before he responds a lot of the time lol

[00:28:05]

wizbit:

i first spoke to him on a forum, not here

[00:28:34]

wizbit:

and that was back in debian sarge days

[00:28:48]

mycoDA:

was he ..... less cranky back then?

[00:29:16]

wizbit:

he is cranky in a nice way

[00:29:46]

mycoDA:

lol – he can be

[00:29:57]

mycoDA:

he sure can jump to conclusions tho

[00:30:45]

wizbit:

yep but hes nice, like most folk here

[00:31:05]

mycoDA:

v true

[00:31:16]

wizbit:

this is the only channel i have visited where i would not feel offended if i was banned

[00:31:24]

mycoDA:

lol

[00:31:37]

mycoDA:

i would be if i was on efnet #desktops

[00:31:48]

mycoDA:

you have to work PRETTY hard to cop a ban there

[00:31:58]

wagnerrp:

mycoDA: start making themes and youll get pretty cranky too

[00:32:17]

mycoDA:

lol for some reason not that appealin

[00:32:18]

wagnerrp:

which code can be bad or wrong, themes are largely an artistic work

[00:32:21]

wizbit:

this channel to me has always been more developer oriantated, rather than the bog standard user like me

[00:32:49]

mycoDA:

like web coding, which to a lrge degree poops me to tears

[00:32:52]

wagnerrp:

so if you get people complaining about how 'your work is wrong and i demand you change it' due to artistic differences

[00:32:58]

wagnerrp:

your mood can sour pretty quickly

[00:33:08]

wizbit:

aye true

[00:33:29]

wizbit:

if coded something, and people hated it, i would think, great :-)

[00:33:33]

wizbit:

*i

[00:33:39]

wizbit:

less is more

[00:33:46]

mycoDA:

yeah, seen plenty o that sort o crap – used to be sysadmin for a new media art collective that runs a 10,000 person festival among other things

[00:34:17]

wagnerrp:

mycoDA: you should have seen the amount of flac iamli ndoro got over the abstract background in his themes

[00:34:27]

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[00:34:35]

mycoDA:

lolwut – if u dont like it dont use it, or mod it

[00:34:36]

wagnerrp:

'the background is all pixelated and ugly, i think its damaged'

[00:34:40]

wizbit:

thats why i chose slackware, the longest running distro, with mininal users, but the character is great

[00:34:49]

wagnerrp:

or 'i realize this is a work in progress, but can you send me the correct background'

[00:35:07]

sphery:

I thought you just had to pay for the correct background

[00:35:12]

mycoDA:

lol

[00:35:17]

iamlindoro:

^^ Thus that joke was developod ;)

[00:35:18]

wizbit:

if the whole world used mythtv, i would remove it

[00:35:19]

sphery:

or did he just tell /me/ that

[00:35:22]

iamlindoro:

er developed

[00:35:42]

mycoDA:

crippleware eh

[00:35:55]

sphery:

better than Nagware-wide

[00:36:01]

iamlindoro:

Basically, when I first started writing Arclight, it used a closed source font (and still does at my house) so I put out there that people would need to purchase the font themselves for it to look right

[00:36:10]

wizbit:

less is more, having lots of idiot users is not a advantage

[00:36:11]

mycoDA:

spose would give me an intro into the structur of myth to a degree to hack at

[00:36:15]

sphery:

background says, "Please send $5 to <author> if you would like to use this theme"

[00:36:22]

iamlindoro:

Except within five list messages, that was distorted into me charging for the theme

[00:36:29]

mycoDA:

lol wut

[00:36:39]

mycoDA:

people should learn to read

[00:36:46]

iamlindoro:

So when I saw the opportunity on the list to say that you get a full, lush, clear background when you upgrade to Arclight-Pro, I took it

[00:36:53]

sphery:

/and/ they were telling him he can't do that because of licenses

[00:36:55]

mycoDA:

then again – thats why rtfm is the cry of tech support

[00:37:05]

sphery:

because, of course, you can't pay for anything if it's open source

[00:37:22]

mycoDA:

lol people think that sphery?

[00:37:29]

mycoDA:

not even true for gpl

[00:37:33]

sphery:

yeah

[00:37:39]

mycoDA:

certainly not true for bsd

[00:37:50]

sphery:

and that's not even the reason I use FLOSS

[00:37:58]

mycoDA:

free as in freedom

[00:38:08]

mycoDA:

not as in dont pay

[00:38:15]

sphery:

I'd gladly pay for it, because it's better than the garbage that companies charge for

[00:38:38]

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[00:38:48]

wizbit:

do you guys run mythtv frontend on a virtual machine for development?

[00:38:53]

mycoDA:

me too – and i am on a pension, and tend to try to avoid that so i can eat

[00:39:06]

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[00:39:39]

mycoDA:

is almost weird that my bank balance is in the positive atm actually

[00:39:52]

mycoDA:

might try an keep it ther for a while

[00:40:27]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: why bother with a VM, when you can just use a chroot

[00:40:47]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: a theme is just a theme, i dont even need a chroot

[00:41:04]

wizbit:

but my display res is improtant

[00:41:11]

wagnerrp:

if you dont even need a chroot, why bother with a VM?

[00:41:32]

wizbit:

my desktop is os x

[00:41:39]

wizbit:

so i can run adobe apps

[00:41:46]

mycoDA:

dual boot

[00:41:52]

mycoDA:

lol

[00:41:57]

wagnerrp:

pricey

[00:41:58]

wizbit:

i need photoshop online

[00:42:09]

wizbit:

and illustrator

[00:42:24]

mycoDA:

know the feeling – among other things i need pro/engineer

[00:42:32]

mycoDA:

they dropped linux support

[00:42:42]

wagnerrp:

unless youre a professional graphic artist, i dont know why you would bother with photoshop

[00:42:53]

wizbit:

photoshop kicks ass

[00:43:09]

wizbit:

nice, clean, logical

[00:43:09]

wagnerrp:

its also like $500

[00:43:22]

mycoDA:

cos u have used it for 15+ years and dont want to change workflow?

[00:43:36]

wizbit:

clean aliases .png

[00:43:44]

wagnerrp:

mycoDA: i mean.. unless youre a professional, and paid to do such things

[00:43:45]

wizbit:

anti-alias

[00:43:49]

wagnerrp:

i dont know how you could justify the price

[00:43:50]

wizbit:

perfect for icons

[00:44:36]

wizbit:

gimp is messy, i dont like it

[00:44:50]

wizbit:

but each to their own

[00:45:11]

mycoDA:

previous comment related

[00:45:20]

wizbit:

sometimes, open source is not always the best option

[00:45:49]

wagnerrp:

my mistake, $660 for a new copy

[00:46:05]

wagnerrp:

for that much, i would suffer through gimp

[00:46:06]

wizbit:

lot of dosh

[00:46:16]

wizbit:

i would suffer piracy

[00:46:42]

mycoDA:

pretty sure adobe WANT piracy

[00:46:43]

wagnerrp:

you know our rules on such things

[00:46:49]

wizbit:

ok

[00:47:03]

wizbit:

i was joking, i bought it

[00:47:48]

wizbit:

(somebody say something)

[00:49:27]

mycoDA:

echo . cho... o o o

[00:50:18]

wagnerrp:

sphery: ok, the last batch of migration is up on github

[00:50:21]

wizbit:

if piracy is bad, what is microsoft doing here:

[00:50:22]

wizbit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13047454

[00:50:30]

wagnerrp:

now its just a matter of option checking and debugging

[00:50:58]

wagnerrp:

PRIVACY...

[00:51:09]

wagnerrp:

close, but completely different meaning

[00:51:27]

sphery:

wagnerrp: cool, thanks... I'll be sure to look at that for the logpath/pidpath changes

[00:52:18]

sphery:

the only reason piracy is good is because it helps keep global warming at bay--but that's not a good enough reason to steal things

[00:52:18]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: but it is a blatant rip off of google

[00:52:40]

sphery:

besides, pretty sure it's a different kind of pirate

[00:52:58]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: so? did google patent the method of mounting a camera on a car and photographic everything?

[00:53:02]

wizbit:

it makes me wonder, was the windows os stolen

[00:53:12]

sphery:

wizbit: no, copying the data that google collected would be a blatant rip off

[00:53:19]

wagnerrp:

pretty sure there's prior art in filmmaking since the '20s

[00:53:36]

sphery:

copying the idea of having a map that will allow you to see pictures is just recognizing a good idea

[00:53:47]

wagnerrp:

even if they did copy the idea, then it still wouldnt be piracy

[00:53:51]

sphery:

considering they're doing all their own work, ...

[00:53:53]

wagnerrp:

it would be patent infringement

[00:53:57]

wagnerrp:

which is a whole other beast entirely

[00:54:00]

wizbit:

would micrsoft do this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13047454 before google ?

[00:54:19]

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[00:54:41]

wagnerrp:

taking ideas is not copyright infringement

[00:54:56]

wizbit:

i think maybe, windows is a pirate in itself, maybe microsoft stole the idea

[00:54:59]

sphery:

well, your point--that there's no possible way anyone in the world would have thought to have pictures of places linked to a map, with the exception of Google--is a hard one to disprove

[00:55:08]

sphery:

so I guess I can't argue

[00:55:21]

wagnerrp:

as explained, it is patent infringement, and then only if google patented the idea

[00:55:27]

wagnerrp:

if there is no patent, then its completely fair game

[00:55:34]

sphery:

patented the invention

[00:55:39]

sphery:

because you can't patent ideas

[00:55:41]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: i disgaree, forget the laws

[00:55:45]

sphery:

oh, wait, US patent law is wrong, now

[00:55:52]

sphery:

thus we have business method and software patents

[00:55:59]

wizbit:

apple did not copy the ipad

[00:56:08]

wizbit:

but microsoft would

[00:56:12]

wagnerrp:

if you forget the laws, then its certainly not illegal

[00:56:19]

sphery:

wizbit: Apple was /not/ the first with a tablet

[00:56:19]

wizbit:

ok

[00:56:31]

sphery:

they were the first with an iPad tablet

[00:56:36]

wizbit:

sphery: very true, but they brought it to light

[00:56:45]

wizbit:

without copying

[00:56:52]

sphery:

and MS hasn't copied them... they made tables--one of which was /much/ better than iPad (the Courier)

[00:57:00]

sphery:

but they still haven't released any

[00:57:09]

mycoDA:

nobody is talking HP vectra??

[00:57:13]

sphery:

"brought it to light"

[00:57:31]

sphery:

not what I would consider their having done

[00:57:37]

wagnerrp:

mycoDA: personally, im thinking of the little device Picard used

[00:57:38]

sphery:

they marketed it

[00:57:40]

sphery:

that's all

[00:57:42]

mycoDA:

PADD

[00:57:53]

wagnerrp:

back in the late 80s

[00:57:54]

mycoDA:

from original star trek too

[00:57:56]

sphery:

and they relied on their slave followers to buy it, even though it's mostly useless

[00:57:58]

mycoDA:

50s

[00:58:06]

wagnerrp:

well 60s anyway

[00:58:14]

wizbit:

i like apple, i trust them more than people like microsoft

[00:58:18]

mycoDA:

lol

[00:58:30]

mycoDA:

they are the most locked down producers in existance

[00:58:38]

sphery:

I trust them to stay in their own niche, where they don't bother me

[00:58:42]

sphery:

that's about it, though :)

[00:58:44]

mycoDA:

they have a long history of baseless litigation

[00:58:50]

wagnerrp:

i dont like apple, they decide for me what i want, and then shovel it down my throat

[00:58:58]

mycoDA:

jobs is positively evil

[00:58:59]

wizbit:

i like redhat, you will never hear of a story of redhat doing the google street view

[00:59:02]

sphery:

mycoDA: what ever do you mean (Look and Feel)

[00:59:08]

mycoDA:

lol

[00:59:20]

wizbit:

oracle is microsoft

[00:59:26]

wizbit:

something about them i disliek

[00:59:33]

sphery:

Oracle is a great business

[00:59:34]

mycoDA:

oracle are prolly worse atm

[00:59:51]

sphery:

which makes them a terrible friend of FLOSS

[00:59:59]

wizbit:

orarcle is a copy cat vendor with no brains, like microsoft

[01:00:36]

mycoDA:

M$ is probably the most intelligently run business of the 20th and 21st centuries

[01:00:50]

mycoDA:

part of wehat makes them so dangerous

[01:00:53]

mycoDA:

*what

[01:00:57]

wizbit:

how would you feel if redhat decided to do there own version of google street view?

[01:01:10]

mycoDA:

much more comfortable with it lol

[01:01:45]

wagnerrp:

google exists to sell ads

[01:01:49]

mycoDA:

might even be able to use the maps how _I_ want

[01:01:59]

wagnerrp:

when you realize that EVERYTHING they do is to get more people on their website so they can sell ad space

[01:02:04]

mycoDA:

redhat exists to sell support contracts lol

[01:02:05]

wagnerrp:

everything they do makes sense

[01:02:07]

sphery:

I'm only disappointed that I'm going to have to paint my house and buy a new truck after the MS/Navtech camera car comes by

[01:02:40]

sphery:

Google has a picture of my house before painting and with the truck I used to own parked in front

[01:02:51]

wizbit:

i like to support a company with the brains behind it, not a company who clones ideas

[01:02:53]

mycoDA:

massive porn billboard?

[01:02:55]

sphery:

to maintain this level of privacy, I'll have to do it all again

[01:03:03]

wagnerrp:

i dont understand the problem with google taking street level photographs

[01:03:24]

wagnerrp:

i dont understand the problem with them having aerial photographs available

[01:03:32]

mycoDA:

what do you call a truck sphery?

[01:03:36]

wagnerrp:

its not like they are going to show anything that anyone else cant see from the street

[01:03:47]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I agree... And these lawsuits where people say that criminals used street view to case their homes before a burglary are so wrong

[01:03:49]

mycoDA:

i love it personally

[01:03:51]

wagnerrp:

now when they were doing things like going up people's driveways... thats a problem

[01:03:53]

sphery:

mycoDA: my pickup truck

[01:04:00]

mycoDA:

pickup????

[01:04:03]

mycoDA:

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[01:04:08]

wagnerrp:

when you 'case a home', you walk around the home

[01:04:14]

wagnerrp:

you dont just look at a photo of the front of it

[01:04:20]

mycoDA:

its a ute dammit

[01:04:24]

mycoDA:

not a truck

[01:04:42]

wizbit:

oracle own virtualbox, does that mean they are the brains who created it?

[01:04:48]

wagnerrp:

is that new jersey speak for 'youth'?

[01:05:02]

mycoDA:

huh? ute – utility vehicle

[01:05:10]

sphery:

mycoDA: heh, well closer to a truck than an SUV is

[01:05:25]

[R]:

wizbit: the comapny that made vbox was bought by sun, who was bought by oracle

[01:05:26]

mycoDA:

church trip at the front, farm vehicle at the back

[01:05:31]

mycoDA:

aussie invention

[01:05:41]

mycoDA:

hencu u should use the right name !

[01:05:46]

mycoDA:

*hence

[01:05:49]

wagnerrp:

mycoDA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bN7389KGD4

[01:05:59]

wizbit:

[R]: they bought, but they didnt ivent

[01:06:04]

wizbit:

*invent

[01:06:09]

[R]:

wizbit: when did i say they did?

[01:06:22]

wizbit:

you didnt, im just saying

[01:06:23]

[R]:

wizbit: i just gave you the history on it...

[01:06:30]

[R]:

wizbit: its implied...

[01:07:08]

wizbit:

i like steve jobs, i can tell he has love for apple products

[01:07:25]

wizbit:

i dont trust that micrsoft fat man who took over from bill gates

[01:07:57]

sphery:

anyone else find it insulting that the ipad 2 commercials call it a "leap forward"

[01:08:15]

sphery:

it's an ipad 1 with two low-quality cameras and a better CPU

[01:08:17]

wagnerrp:

i dont trust anyone why has the kind of infallible air around him as steve jobs does

[01:08:19]

sphery:

not really a leap

[01:08:23]

[R]:

sphery: hehe

[01:08:29]

wizbit:

well maybe so, but at least apple didnt copy

[01:08:33]

[R]:

sphery: they also have a commercial saying the iphone 3GS is the phone that "changed it all"

[01:08:50]

[R]:

what the hell did the 3GS change?

[01:08:57]

sphery:

[R]: yeah... that one is annoying, too (think it's Verizon, though, right?)

[01:09:03]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: what do you mean they didnt copy?

[01:09:06]

[R]:

no, its an att commercial

[01:09:10]

wagnerrp:

apple doesnt invent anything

[01:09:12]

[R]:

cuz its "only" $50

[01:09:12]

sphery:

the "highest resolution phone screen /ever/" is annoying

[01:09:22]

sphery:

as "ever" implies past and future

[01:09:24]

wagnerrp:

they slap a user friendly GUI on an existing product, and advertise the hell out of it

[01:09:28]

sphery:

"yet" would be correct

[01:09:34]

sphery:

(at least would have been correct at the time)

[01:09:38]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: they did copy, but they brought it back to life, now other people will copy that

[01:09:48]

wagnerrp:

that has been their business model for the last decade

[01:09:52]

[R]:

i also love the att commericals about simluatneous voice/data

[01:10:01]

sphery:

few things in the world today were created without copying

[01:10:04]

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[01:10:05]

[R]:

lathough to be honest i _DID_ use that on my verizon thunderbolt the other day while on speakerphone with my dad

[01:10:09]

sphery:

that is the whole idea behind the march of progress

[01:10:35]

sphery:

wizbit: after all, it's not like they copied their OS... (FreeBSD)

[01:10:56]

wizbit:

sphery: well, i wish windows would do the same thing, unix based windows, no more spam

[01:11:11]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: what does unix have to do with spam?

[01:11:53]

wagnerrp:

a poorly configured unix system is going to get compromised just as quickly as a windows one

[01:12:09]

wagnerrp:

case in point, check out your ssh logs at some point

[01:12:09]

sphery:

it's that what they use to run the mail servers that help transport all that spam?

[01:12:25]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: i have been running os x for 3 years without a virus checker, its still 100% clean

[01:12:35]

wizbit:

i dont even worry about it

[01:12:41]

sphery:

spam != virus

[01:12:48]

sphery:

nor vice versa

[01:13:06]

wizbit:

i dont trust windows at all

[01:13:11]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: ive been running windows xp, windows vista, and windows 7 as my desktop system without AV or anti-spyware software since maybe 2001

[01:13:13]

wizbit:

spyware, what is that?

[01:13:17]

sphery:

but anyway, no one is going to waste time writing an OS X virus

[01:13:22]

sphery:

they'll just do iOS virii

[01:13:33]

wagnerrp:

no firewall besides the main default block router

[01:13:46]

sphery:

spyware... isn't that what they sell at the iTunes App Store?

[01:13:50]

wizbit:

there are NO linux or os x viruses at all?

[01:13:53]

wagnerrp:

i dont worry about it, because i dont do stupid crap on it

[01:14:04]

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[01:14:09]

wagnerrp:

i know what not to do to stay clean

[01:14:27]

wagnerrp:

a system is no more secure than its users

[01:14:27]

wizbit:

windows is one big hole for black hats

[01:14:41]

wagnerrp:

and OSX users are just as stupid as windows users

[01:14:45]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: not true, the creators are responsible as well

[01:14:57]

sphery:

windows is a big hole, period

[01:15:03]

wagnerrp:

linux users are getting there, plus they have the additional pitfall of somehow thinking theyre 'l33t linux users'

[01:15:04]

sphery:

like 90% of the desktop market or something

[01:15:09]

wizbit:

bill gates is responsible for data insecurity

[01:15:21]

wagnerrp:

no, users are responsible for data insecurity

[01:15:25]

wizbit:

no

[01:15:29]

wizbit:

users are stupid

[01:15:29]

wagnerrp:

if you get a virus, you have no one to blame but yourself

[01:15:30]

sphery:

all that means is that it's a good target--because it's a wide installed base

[01:15:37]

wizbit:

users are not technical

[01:15:41]

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[01:15:41]

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[01:15:49]

wagnerrp:

exactly, users are stupid, hence they do stupid things, and get computer viruses

[01:15:53]

wizbit:

the creator of the os is responsible

[01:16:04]

wizbit:

not the hackers

[01:16:11]

wagnerrp:

does that mean we need to assume the user is stupid, and coddle them?

[01:16:27]

wizbit:

users should be placed into a secure zone

[01:16:39]

wizbit:

not a insecure zone created by microsoft

[01:16:40]

wagnerrp:

theres this whole thing called natural selection that we as a society have gotten away from in the past century

[01:16:49]

wagnerrp:

you do stupid crap, you should suffer the consequences

[01:17:02]

wizbit:

aye :D

[01:17:05]

wagnerrp:

if you coddle people, theyre never going to learn, and are going to continue to be stupid

[01:17:22]

mycoDA:

the great leap forward sphery?

[01:17:26]

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[01:17:30]

wagnerrp:

linux and osx users have a false sense of security, only backed by their lack of market share

[01:17:31]

wizbit:

im pretty dam sure, there are not many os x desktops comprised out there

[01:17:47]

wagnerrp:

there are not many os x desktops compromised because theres no point to it

[01:17:53]

sphery:

wagnerrp: that fits with the way physical security works... A guy broke into my house, so I sued the builder, the door manufacturer, the lock manufacturer, the window manufacturer, and the glass manufacturer

[01:18:04]

sphery:

they should have made unbreakable glass so I wouldn't have been robbed

[01:18:05]

wagnerrp:

why go after that 5% market share when the 90% white whale is sitting right there

[01:18:14]

sphery:

(in truth, I haven't yet been robbed... knock on wood)

[01:18:16]

wagnerrp:

you wouldnt waste the effort

[01:18:24]

wagnerrp:

when there is so much more to be gained going after windows

[01:18:29]

wizbit:

hang gates, not the hackers

[01:18:34]

mycoDA:

the thing is that if a virus hits osx, it is generally only able to get at userspace, and one user

[01:18:44]

wagnerrp:

if you look at the server market where posix and windows systems are on more even ground

[01:18:50]

wagnerrp:

linux servers get compromised all the time

[01:18:52]

sphery:

wizbit: I can configure a *nix system to be more vulnerable than a Windows system

[01:18:52]

wizbit:

mycoDA: thats why they dont exist

[01:19:04]

sphery:

but, like wagnerrp is saying, it's a smaller target,

[01:19:11]

wizbit:

totally

[01:19:30]

sphery:

smaller because of installed base, not because Unix has magical security

[01:19:37]

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[01:19:42]

wizbit:

i dont have any virus checker running at all, and i feel 100% secure

[01:20:17]

wizbit:

with windows, its a big mess, who knows what might be going on in the background

[01:20:34]

sphery:

and it's not Bill Gates' (or MS's) responsibility to secure every Windows system on earth... Just like it's not Linksys/Cisco's responsibility to secure peoples wifi routers

[01:20:44]

sphery:

they provide tools, and users can choose to use or ignore them

[01:21:07]

sphery:

anyway that's my opinion

[01:21:08]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: yes, OSX virus do exist, and they are in the wild, and they do affect users

[01:21:21]

wagnerrp:

bu no one has bothered to develop one into a full blown botnet

[01:21:25]

wagnerrp:

because its not worth the effort

[01:21:32]

wizbit:

sphery: imagine you created a secure prison for naughty people, but your prision was not quite up to scratch, and people could escape

[01:22:00]

wizbit:

who would be responsible?

[01:22:07]

mycoDA:

plenty of rootkits to turn *nix mailseverers into spambots have been used tho

[01:22:26]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: if Apple stuff was so secure, why is it that theyre browsers are broken just as fast easily as anything else at hacker cons? why is it that the iphone can be jail broken?

[01:22:33]

wizbit:

mycoDA: true, buts it not common

[01:22:38]

mycoDA:

yes it is

[01:23:02]

wagnerrp:

they arent more secure, they just arent worth the effort

[01:23:26]

mycoDA:

you need good sysadmins who are on the lookout for that sort of intrusion to minimise it

[01:23:34]

sphery:

wizbit: there's a big difference between the warranty implied by those who are responsible for creating a secure prison and those who are selling software

[01:23:34]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: so do you really thing that if OS X was the driving desktop, it would suddenly be infected with virus, spyware etc

[01:23:42]

mycoDA:

yes

[01:23:44]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: absolutely yes

[01:23:51]

wizbit:

spyware on unix? how?

[01:24:04]

mycoDA:

rootkits are a good start

[01:24:29]

wagnerrp:

the same way there is spyware on windows, the same way unix rootkits exist, the same way unix servers are compromised and set up as zombies ALL THE FREAKING TIME

[01:24:35]

wizbit:

i have never heard of any spyware on os x?

[01:24:49]

wagnerrp:

because theres not a large enough market to bother with

[01:24:56]

sphery:

wagnerrp: what, you mean that both Windows /and/ Unix have a spyware API designed into them?

[01:24:58]

wagnerrp:

do you have ssh listening on port 22?

[01:25:22]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: there are a LOT of linux based apache web servers out, virus free

[01:25:28]

mycoDA:

not exposed to the net of course

[01:25:45]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: there are a LOT of linux based apache web server out, hacked and rooted

[01:25:49]

mycoDA:

lol PLENTY have been hit wizbit, major exploits

[01:25:56]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: do you have an ssh server listening on port 22?

[01:26:00]

sphery:

put it this way, there exists no bug-free software

[01:26:15]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: no, i use a non-standard port

[01:26:15]

sphery:

regardless of what platform it's designed for

[01:26:17]

wagnerrp:

and why do you do that?

[01:26:24]

mycoDA:

can still portscan you

[01:26:26]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: script kiddies and silly scripts

[01:26:35]

sphery:

I use port 22

[01:26:38]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: and... why are they trying to access port 22?

[01:26:38]

sphery:

but you can't

[01:26:49]

sphery:

(you can't use port 22 on my systems)

[01:26:58]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: so they can access it and run some spam service

[01:27:14]

wagnerrp:

the only reason to try to brute force login on port 22 is because they are at some point successful, correct?

[01:27:22]

wizbit:

true

[01:27:28]

mycoDA:

so – there is a vulnerabiuloity by default

[01:27:32]

mycoDA:

on linux

[01:27:40]

sphery:

at least not unless you crack my single-packet authorization

[01:27:42]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: surely its not that common to find a hole

[01:27:45]

wagnerrp:

which means, the only reason you would see those attacks is because there are plenty of unix/ssh servers sitting on the network, with bad passwords, just waiting to be compromised

[01:27:46]

wagnerrp:

correct?

[01:27:54]

wizbit:

true

[01:28:01]

wagnerrp:

passwords are set by the users

[01:28:20]

wagnerrp:

so users with no security sense are going to use easy passwords, and those will get compromised by such a brute force attack

[01:28:21]

mycoDA:

some are even daft enuf to allow remote root

[01:28:26]

wizbit:

with windows its different, a user could open a email, and thats it

[01:28:45]

wagnerrp:

once on the system, there are all sorts of privilege escalation mechanisms one could use

[01:28:58]

sphery:

what was the company that was just cracked, where they posted the password database--including some of the top officers' passwords, as weak as 2-characters

[01:29:12]

wagnerrp:

HBGary?

[01:29:19]

mycoDA:

dells email provider just got hit

[01:29:27]

wagnerrp:

the security firm that had their unix servers compromised?

[01:29:32]

wagnerrp:

SECURITY FIRM

[01:29:44]

wagnerrp:

people who are supposed to know what theyre doing, and how to configure this stuff to be secure

[01:29:58]

sphery:

I think that's it...

[01:30:04]

wizbit:

if windows was based on unix, would there still be a serious spam, botnet problem?

[01:30:10]

mycoDA:

it is

[01:30:22]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: what makes you think most of the spam comes from windows systems?

[01:30:34]

wizbit:

i thought it was

[01:30:59]

wagnerrp:

it may have originated from a windows zombie, but chances are its passing through an open sendmail/postfix relay at some point

[01:31:18]

wagnerrp:

because some stupid unix sysadmin was never told open relays are BAD

[01:31:19]

sphery:

and RSA just got hacked, too

[01:31:31]

mycoDA:

windows NTs kernel is developed from a Carnegie Melon (sp) Uni unix kernel

[01:32:01]

wizbit:

unix can be cleanly secured, you never know where you are with windows

[01:32:16]

wizbit:

.dll might be evil

[01:32:17]

mycoDA:

only by unplugging either from the net

[01:32:18]

wagnerrp:

windows can be cleanly secured

[01:32:32]

wagnerrp:

just force everyone to run as a limited user account

[01:32:45]

wagnerrp:

with no ability to install programs, or run downloaded programs

[01:32:52]

wagnerrp:

nearly all avenues of attack are gone

[01:32:54]

mycoDA:

even ther either is going to have vulnerabilities

[01:33:03]

wagnerrp:

you can only hit vulnerabilities in pre-existing programs

[01:33:23]

sphery:

perfect security does not exist--in Windows or *nix

[01:33:39]

wagnerrp:

it always falls back to the user

[01:33:41]

wizbit:

how many updates / patches has windows XP had since it was released?

[01:33:48]

wagnerrp:

and the user is far easier to compromise than the system

[01:33:55]

mycoDA:

not as many as nix lol

[01:34:00]

sphery:

and most of the viruses, spyware, trojans, ... for Windows take advantage of patched vulnerabilities--for which the user has failed to apply the supplied fix

[01:34:08]

wagnerrp:

meaning your system is going to be insecure no matter what it is, so long as it has users

[01:34:15]

sphery:

not much more MS can do--other than send around a guy to click the button for them

[01:34:43]

mycoDA:

if all else fail of course – rubberhose cryptography is very effective

[01:35:03]

mycoDA:

kinda reduces a lil of the incentive for perfection

[01:35:16]

wizbit:

this is security http://www.openbsd.org/

[01:35:22]

mycoDA:

roflmao

[01:35:27]

wizbit:

'Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!'

[01:35:37]

wagnerrp:

no, that is secure defaults resulting in very little functionality

[01:35:51]

wagnerrp:

once you start expanding on that default install to bring the system up to a usable state

[01:36:01]

wagnerrp:

you introduce in all those vulnerabilities

[01:36:09]

wizbit:

mysql is no.1

[01:36:28]

wagnerrp:

if you run a mysql server open to the internet, you are asking for trouble

[01:36:30]

sphery:

In truth, my Dad's TRS-80 has /never/ had a virus on it in 30+ years, and has never used any anti-virus or other security software

[01:36:36]

sphery:

therefore, TRS-80 > OpenBSD

[01:36:39]

wagnerrp:

similarly, if you run mythtv open to the internet, you are asking for trouble

[01:37:00]

wizbit:

aye, mythweb is open, but it used apache password

[01:37:02]

sphery:

of course it hasn't been powered on in around 30 years--but that's the crux of its security

[01:37:03]

wizbit:

*uses

[01:37:11]

wagnerrp:

is mythtv insecure? yeah, its insecure as hell

[01:37:28]

wagnerrp:

but ive never heard of one virus that propagates itself through mythtv installs

[01:37:33]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: LAN insecure, but it doesnt matter, from the outside as long as you secure mythweb is fine

[01:37:35]

wagnerrp:

so we must be better than the whole lot of em

[01:37:49]

sphery:

wizbit: who needs a virus, I can just delete your recordings directly

[01:37:55]

wizbit:

:P

[01:37:56]

sphery:

and break your config

[01:38:02]

sphery:

if I get into your mythweb

[01:38:15]

wizbit:

in the old days i could find open mythweb servers

[01:38:16]

mycoDA:

what was the lengendary backdoor coded into the original gcc compiler?

[01:38:22]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: so if someone sits out on the street, and decrypts your WEP/WPA1 passcode to access your network

[01:38:28]

wagnerrp:

your computer is now compromised

[01:38:32]

mycoDA:

or was it

[01:38:39]

wagnerrp:

they have full reign to do whatever they want

[01:38:52]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: they are more clever than me, i like them :D

[01:39:07]

mycoDA:

delibe4rately put in and hidden so the original author could always get in

[01:39:21]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: they are not clever

[01:39:24]

mycoDA:

then set up to put itself back in on any recompile

[01:39:27]

wagnerrp:

WEP and WPA1 are broken open

[01:39:37]

mycoDA:

so it could be removed and hidden in the source

[01:39:45]

wagnerrp:

all it takes is some freely available software and a couple minutes of activity to break into either

[01:39:49]

wizbit:

wagnerrp: if they used somebody elses script they are not, but if a hacker invented his own way, they are clever :D

[01:40:44]

mycoDA:

if they could invent their own way – they would be able to hack better targets than ur system

[01:41:37]

wizbit:

what they do is bad, but i still see them as clever people

[01:41:38]

wagnerrp:

exactly, you dont have to worry about the guy who can break into your system manually

[01:43:07]

wizbit:

well if they did, i would feel, wow! clever guy, rather than you argghhh i hate you

[01:43:56]

wizbit:

criminals are now cool :D

[01:44:41]

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[01:45:15]

wizbit:

dont blame the hacker, blame the guy who created the insecurity

[01:46:34]

mycoDA:

thats retarded

[01:46:51]

mycoDA:

you have never coded anything have you?

[01:47:03]

mycoDA:

is hard work, and impossible to see every effect

[01:47:29]

wizbit:

so that means the coder is responsible, not the hacker

[01:48:32]

kisak:

the hacker is just yet another auditor

[01:49:15]

wizbit:

with clean code, there is no hacker

[01:50:08]

mycoDA:

there is no such thing as clean code

[01:50:15]

mycoDA:

just well audited code

[01:50:34]

wizbit:

i think there is, but us humans have not mastered it

[01:50:57]

mycoDA:

so – the only one with motivation and intent is the one to blame

[01:51:03]

kisak:

sure, you can have clean code, go back to your C64 and keep on using your masterpiece

[01:51:10]

mycoDA:

unless you are saying coders should do the impossible

[01:52:01]

wizbit:

hackers are not criminals, the guys what create the holes are

[01:52:11]

GreyFoxx:

now you are just trolling

[01:52:22]

wizbit:

nope, thats what i think

[01:52:38]

GreyFoxx:

if I leave my window open, on purpose or not, does not give you the right to come in and steal stuff or wreck up the place

[01:52:59]

GreyFoxx:

Yes, it is my responsibility to do what I can to secure my home, but it is YOUR social obligation to stay the hell out

[01:53:35]

kisak:

that's a big neighborhood for you to impose your social ideals onto

[01:53:59]

wizbit:

GreyFoxx: imagine your home was secure, perfect, then you would not need to worry

[01:54:12]

GreyFoxx:

If it's was just my personal ideals yeah, but thankfully the world in general agrees

[01:54:22]

GreyFoxx:

wiz: Nothing is perfect

[01:54:29]

GreyFoxx:

someone somewhere is gonna find a way in

[01:54:51]

GreyFoxx:

even if it was flawlessly secure today, 3 weeks from now something will learn something than can then be applied to my house to get in

[01:55:07]

wizbit:

if i asked somebody to build me a home, and it was full of holes for criminals, i would not be happy

[01:55:29]

wizbit:

and if i got robbed, i would blame the guys who left all those holes

[01:55:45]

wizbit:

for being sloppy

[01:55:57]

mycoDA:

like tiled roofs?

[01:56:08]

mycoDA:

doors and windows?

[01:56:13]

wizbit:

:D

[01:56:14]

mycoDA:

they are easy to force

[01:56:15]

GreyFoxx:

wiz: Of course, he should be doing whatever is reasonable to secure it, but in the end it's yours to keep secure. But if someone comes to the house with a chainsaw and cuts through the wall to get in and steal stuff the theif is at fault

[01:56:49]

mycoDA:

he should be doin what is reasonable to secure it – while maintaining usability and your design

[01:57:26]

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[01:57:38]

wizbit:

blame the people who found the holes, or blame the people who created the holes

[01:57:43]

mycoDA:

build it underground, with no windows and commercial airlocks with phsical and passcoded and biological locks and the only unauthorised way in will be social engineering

[01:57:56]

mycoDA:

blame the people that used the holes

[01:58:16]

GreyFoxx:

Wiz: .. So if you murdered me, it would be my fault for not stopping you? You have no blame in the matter?

[01:58:21]

mycoDA:

forgot the 2 foot thick stailess walls

[01:58:23]

GreyFoxx:

yeah right

[01:58:41]

mycoDA:

*stainless

[01:58:47]

mycoDA:

to stop plasma cutters

[01:58:55]

kisak:

it's not even that ... in the linux community it's more like ... oh look, you still have skeleton key doors, and they're locked. but you can get the key at any hardware store, since you haven't updated your doors, you are vulnerable to the guy walking around with skeleton keys looking to walk in without brute force

[01:58:59]

mycoDA:

if ur builder doesnt do that – sue I say

[01:59:58]

iamlindoro:

And now we all see why dustybin was a ban magnet to begin with

[02:00:01]

mycoDA:

every house should be at least as safe as the best bank vaults

[02:00:07]

GreyFoxx:

if my house was nothing more than 4 lines of duct tape surrounding my property you still have no right to come take my stuff :)

[02:00:20]

GreyFoxx:

iaml: hehe

[02:00:33]

iamlindoro:

didn't take him long to get back to old tricks

[02:00:34]

kisak:

GreyFoxx's shotgun agrees with him

[02:00:36]

wizbit:

responsibily should be taken back to the people who create poor code

[02:00:54]

iamlindoro:

Says the guy who has never created anything of value, ever, since he was born

[02:00:59]

mycoDA:

responsability should be taken by people to know what htey use

[02:01:11]

GreyFoxx:

iaml: Is he one of these guys ?

[02:01:23]

iamlindoro:

GreyFoxx, wizbit is dustybin

[02:01:26]

iamlindoro:

same person

[02:01:35]

wizbit:

iamlindoro: just my opinion, but i have order a nice 1080P display for contribution

[02:01:53]

GreyFoxx:

ahhh I figured he was either a troll or a fool, and I really have little interest in talking to either

[02:01:56]

iamlindoro:

your BS about contributing must be a nice way of justifying buying yourself a toy

[02:02:13]

iamlindoro:

Last we spoke, you said you wouldn't be back until you had something to contribute, but it's the same old tripe

[02:02:35]

wizbit:

maybe im wrong what i say, but its my opinion, you have the right to agree or disagree

[02:02:40]

** iamlindoro goes back to actual contributing on his ancient monitor **

[02:02:58]

mycoDA:

ok – everyone else on the planet disagrees – no problem

[02:03:44]

mycoDA:

responsability only needs to be taken for misrepresentation or dire negligence

[02:03:48]

wizbit:

this is the best display out there at the moment: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dell-U2311-Widescreen . . . p/B003R7K332

[02:03:50]

mycoDA:

due care is just that

[02:04:01]

mycoDA:

roflmao

[02:04:10]

mycoDA:

you really are a nut

[02:04:31]

mycoDA:

is just a smallish consumer IPS panel

[02:04:43]

wizbit:

read some reviews

[02:04:55]

mycoDA:

i have

[02:05:13]

mycoDA:

it is as great panel, for a smallish conusumer panel

[02:05:21]

wizbit:

its good value for money

[02:05:29]

mycoDA:

yep

[02:05:30]

wizbit:

perfect for theming

[02:05:40]

mycoDA:

but not in the league of the best panels

[02:05:48]

wizbit:

i say it is

[02:05:53]

kisak:

not a chance

[02:06:02]

kisak:

not at that price

[02:06:04]

mycoDA:

is LCD for a start

[02:06:11]

wizbit:

the native res is perfect

[02:06:19]

wizbit:

its IPS

[02:06:30]

mycoDA:

uhuh – IPS TFT LCD

[02:06:48]

wizbit:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2311h.htm

[02:07:07]

mycoDA:

read that site regularly

[02:08:42]

wizbit:

when a linux dvb-t2 driver is available, i will swap my crt

[02:08:54]

mycoDA:

also having worked in the entertainment industry know the diff between pro, prosumer and consumer equipment

[02:09:22]

mycoDA:

only OLED can top CZRT for display quality btw

[02:09:27]

mycoDA:

*CRT

[02:10:18]

mycoDA:

my ol dell 1227 will obliterate ur u2311 :)

[02:10:22]

wizbit:

i dont like the idea of having a 'Dell' badge in my setup, but that monitor kicks ass

[02:10:53]

mycoDA:

typing on a dell now

[02:11:15]

mycoDA:

fiancee has one too, so does mum

[02:11:34]

wizbit:

i hope to god its not glossy

[02:11:45]

wizbit:

black terminals + glossy = NO

[02:12:05]

mycoDA:

all lappies – mine is the only pro one and hence the onle matte

[02:12:23]

wizbit:

nothing worse than seeing my ugly self in a black terminal window

[02:12:30]

wizbit:

horrid

[02:12:37]

mycoDA:

i am the only one that uses those ;)

[02:13:47]

wizbit:

anyway this is #mythtv-users

[02:13:49]

wizbit:

back to mythtv

[02:15:06]

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[02:15:20]

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[02:15:20]

wagnerrp:

i dont understand why the market shifted to 1920x1080 displays for computers

[02:15:37]

mycoDA:

too shallow hey

[02:16:02]

wagnerrp:

its just not standard, standard is 1200px tall

[02:16:32]

wagnerrp:

the only reason to drop to 1080 is if you intend to watch tv full screen on your computer

[02:16:34]

mycoDA:

guess people see standard as TV standard

[02:16:52]

wagnerrp:

and why would you want to sit at your desk watching tv, unless you have other crap open, and its not full screen anyway

[02:17:00]

mycoDA:

we are talkin what will sell after all, not what makes sense

[02:17:17]

wagnerrp:

and its not like 1080 is good for movies

[02:17:51]

mycoDA:

i like 3:4 actually over 16:9 or 10 or 4:3

[02:17:56]

wagnerrp:

because that is either scaled or letterboxed from 2.4:1

[02:18:05]

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[02:18:15]

wagnerrp:

portrait mode?

[02:18:19]

mycoDA:

uhuh

[02:20:27]

Shadow__X:

wagnerrp: i agree i miss wuxga being more available

[02:21:00]

wagnerrp:

it has a name

[02:21:11]

wagnerrp:

what is '1920x1080'? 'full hd'?

[02:21:19]

wagnerrp:

well thats as ambiguous a term as ive ever heard

[02:21:35]

wagnerrp:

if thats 'full hd', what is even higher definition? more full than full?

[02:21:58]

mycoDA:

ultraHD?

[02:22:03]

mycoDA:

UD?

[02:22:07]

mycoDA:

MegaD?

[02:22:15]

mycoDA:

hYPERd?

[02:22:32]

wagnerrp:

hey, its like the song of similar name!

[02:22:50]

wagnerrp:

we used to have the full 4:28 minutes on the radio

[02:23:00]

Shadow__X:

i am pretty sure marketing has looked at 1080 as full hd for some reason

[02:23:02]

wagnerrp:

but then the jackson chick showed a pastie, and we lost 120 piels

[02:26:06]

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[02:29:26]

sphery:

wagnerrp: obviously after full HD comes high HD, then super HD--unless, perhaps, the USB-IF isn't as smart as I thought

[02:29:51]

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[02:32:56]

** wagnerrp is now waiting for ludicrous hd **

[02:33:15]

wizbit:

i hate 3D rubbish

[02:33:16]

wizbit:

yuk

[02:33:28]

wagnerrp:

whats wrong with 3D?

[02:34:00]

wagnerrp:

oh! youre talking about stereoscopic displays, mistakenly advertised as 3D

[02:34:01]

wizbit:

i dont like the idea of wearing specs

[02:34:31]

wagnerrp:

3D displays dont require specs, and allow you to see different things by moving around them

[02:34:56]

wizbit:

im quite happy with the way things are, i dont need any more effects

[02:35:11]

mycoDA:

then dont buy one – simple

[02:35:16]

wizbit:

i wont

[02:35:28]

wizbit:

the news in 3D, great

[02:35:33]

wizbit:

pathetitic

[02:35:34]

wagnerrp:

mycoDA: its not that simple

[02:35:36]

sphery:

I'm skipping 3D and waiting for 4D

[02:35:39]

mycoDA:

culd still happily use a b&w tv with broadecast pal and ntsc for decades

[02:36:05]

wagnerrp:

if you want high end options in a tv these days, its hard to get them without also getting stereoscopic support

[02:36:16]

mycoDA:

dont enable it then – also simple

[02:36:18]

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[02:36:22]

wizbit:

whatever new technology you are presented with, you will soon get used to it and take it for granted

[02:37:13]

** mycoDA still likes crt as he has said several times, and thinks is a sin thet powermacs dies, but does not need to moan at every mention or open chance **

[02:37:17]

wizbit:

720 x 576 still kicks ass, its still amazing

[02:37:29]

earthnative:

wagnerrp: I don't want to have to "move around" for 3d, but I defintiely agree that current 3d is rubbish

[02:37:48]

mycoDA:

watchin a 576 56" rearpro crt atm

[02:37:55]

wagnerrp:

earthnative: if you cant move around and see another viewpoint, then its not 3D

[02:38:01]

wizbit:

PAL res on CRT is awesome, its great

[02:38:23]

mycoDA:

in a lot o ways stereoscopic is prolly preferable to true 3d

[02:38:32]

earthnative:

wagnerrp: but 3d doesn't REQUIRE you to move around to see another viewpoint – which is my point

[02:38:40]

mycoDA:

fullHD on crt is even better

[02:38:59]

wagnerrp:

earthnative: if you cant move around and see another viewpoint, then its nothing more than two different 2D images

[02:39:05]

wagnerrp:

2x2D != 3D

[02:39:05]

wizbit:

mycoDA: it is until you are used to it and take it for granted

[02:39:08]

earthnative:

wagnerrp: you

[02:39:11]

earthnative:

're missing my point

[02:39:15]

sphery:

wouldn't 2x2D be 4D?

[02:39:25]

earthnative:

but I think my point is based on missing your point anyway, so, whatever

[02:39:32]

wagnerrp:

youre missing mine, regardless of whether its better or not, its not 3D

[02:39:41]

wagnerrp:

so like stereoscopic displays or not, its false advertising

[02:39:55]

earthnative:

wagnerrp: I have no problem with moving around and seeing other things, but I don't want headtracking to be "the 3d sans glasses method of the FUTURRRRRRRRE"

[02:39:56]

wizbit:

when i see '3D' i think gimmick

[02:40:15]

earthnative:

wagnerrp: what you're describing wont be called 3d. It'll be called holographic.

[02:40:17]

mycoDA:

people said that about colour

[02:40:20]

mycoDA:

and computers

[02:40:22]

wagnerrp:

earthnative: im not talking about head tracking with a 3D display

[02:40:36]

earthnative:

wagnerrp: I. know.

[02:40:48]

wagnerrp:

im talking volumetric displays, holographic displays, and multi-angle parallax displays

[02:40:48]

earthnative:

that was my misunderstanding of your original point

[02:41:08]

wagnerrp:

displays that actually display 3D voxels, rather than multiple screens of 2D pixels

[02:41:17]

wizbit:

things always move forward until it destroys itself, why do we need better, not for me

[02:42:32]

wizbit:

720 x 576 owns, im quite happy with that

[02:42:46]

wizbit:

i dont need any new mythtv features

[02:45:56]

Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +o iamlindoro

[02:46:05]

Mode for #mythtv-users by iamlindoro!~iamlindor@mythtv/developer/iamlindoro : +q wizbit!*@*

[02:46:07]

iamlindoro:

shut

[02:46:08]

iamlindoro:

up

[02:47:13]

iamlindoro:

I'll unquiet you when I'm done walking the dogs. Take this time to think about how fast you've managed to re-piss off the entire channel

[02:49:06]

wagnerrp:

dogs plural now?

[02:49:23]

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[02:49:49]

iamlindoro:

yes, adopted a new one a few weeks ago

[02:51:57]

Shadow__X:

congrats

[02:52:18]

Mode for #mythtv-users by iamlindoro!~iamlindor@mythtv/developer/iamlindoro : -q wizbit!*@*

[02:52:36]

iamlindoro:

There, now I'm walking dogs, I'll be reading the scrollback, don't make me regret it

[03:07:32]

mycoDA:

what breed/s do you have iamlindoro?

[03:11:29]

iamlindoro:

Australian cattle dog, and a mutt, also a shepherd of some kind

[03:12:42]

wizbit:

iamlindoro: if i lived near you i would jog with you

[03:13:01]

iamlindoro:

and what a pleasure I am sure that would be

[03:13:12]

wizbit:

well i would

[03:15:47]

wagnerrp:

im sure iamlindoro doesnt 'jog'

[03:16:06]

iamlindoro:

I almost said that, but figured it would sound pretentious :)

[03:17:11]

wagnerrp:

it really bothers me when i see people jogging

[03:17:37]

wagnerrp:

i mean you look at trained runners, people on track teams and such, their shoulders and head hardly move

[03:17:46]

wagnerrp:

very little impact, very little energy wasted

[03:18:12]

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[03:18:19]

wagnerrp:

you look at people jogging down the street and theyve all got terrible form

[03:18:29]

wagnerrp:

theyre doing more harm than good

[03:18:55]

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[03:19:13]

kisak:

with the small percentage which are providing a public service <.<

[03:19:15]

iamlindoro:

It takes a long time to develop good form-- I'm far from perfect but I work hard at form all the same

[03:19:16]

wizbit:

any exercise is good, release some natural feel good highs

[03:19:50]

wagnerrp:

wizbit: no, jogging is bad

[03:20:13]

wagnerrp:

you may get some cardiovascular benefit, but youre doing so at significant damage to your joints

[03:20:14]

wizbit:

surely its better than slumped in front of a laptop

[03:20:26]

mycoDA:

got an amstaff an 2 amstaff x boxers myself

[03:20:42]

mycoDA:

ironic u hav a dog from here, mine are from there

[03:20:57]

iamlindoro:

heh, most people here just call them pit bulls-- but I love the breed

[03:21:04]

wagnerrp:

get an exercise bike, get a treadmill, go to a gym, go to the local rubberized track rather than hard asphalt

[03:21:13]

mycoDA:

if they were pitbulls they would be illegal ;)

[03:21:22]

iamlindoro:

ah, didn't know they were there

[03:21:29]

mycoDA:

by the way they are called blue heelers, or red heelers

[03:21:39]

mycoDA:

not australian cattle dogs :P

[03:21:45]

iamlindoro:

Here they are called both

[03:21:50]

iamlindoro:

but we also use blue heeler

[03:22:03]

mycoDA:

there is a red heeler too

[03:22:08]

wizbit:

if i look back into the past, i always remember how good i felt when i used to go to the gym

[03:22:48]

mycoDA:

is sad how pittys are viewed – they are about the best dogs around

[03:23:06]

mycoDA:

they werent known as the nanny dog for nothing

[03:23:16]

iamlindoro:

They are very good indeed. Almost adopted one as my second.

[03:23:39]

iamlindoro:

all came down to finding the right personality to live alongside my existing dog

[03:23:53]

mycoDA:

now the morons who gave them a bad name just have other dogs, nothing has improved

[03:24:58]

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[03:25:26]

wizbit:

when im old, i will get a dog

[03:26:05]

mycoDA:

god – u mean ur not?

[03:26:31]

wizbit:

i work during the day so i cannot look after a pet

[03:26:35]

wizbit:

but when i retire i will

[03:26:39]

earthnative:

iamlindoro: cattledogs are my favourite (I'm australian :)

[03:27:03]

earthnative:

they're probably the only type of dog I'd own – but then, I'm a cat person

[03:27:11]

mycoDA:

not that big on heelers, kinda high strung, fearless, not too bright lo0l

[03:27:51]

mycoDA:

spose as much as anything another dog idiot owners and breeders give a bad name

[03:28:08]

mycoDA:

but they kinda have to be nuts to bite the heels of half ton cattle

[03:28:36]

earthnative:

incredibly loyal though (blue heelers anyway)

[03:28:41]

mycoDA:

uhuh

[03:29:01]

earthnative:

otoh, that's really only aplicable if raised from a pup

[03:29:25]

wizbit:

pets are nice, sometimes i prefer them than humans

[03:29:41]

mycoDA:

same is tru for amstaffs, just more social at the same time

[03:33:15]

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[03:37:11]

earthnative:

mycoDA: blue heelers are considered (by some anyway) to be amongst the brightest of dogs

[03:37:56]

mycoDA:

very trainable

[03:38:34]

earthnative:

yeah, that's a more accurate description

[03:38:45]

earthnative:

and trainable to complex tasks, but it's still a training thing

[03:39:23]

mycoDA:

boxers are the opposite – bloody hard to train – a lot of people would maintain because they are TOO smart

[03:40:05]

mycoDA:

one of the big things we changed about dogs in breeding them from wolves is make them trainable, which seems to have reduced their intelligence considerqably

[03:40:15]

earthnative:

yeah, as a cat person, I tend to maintain that I prefer cats cos they're smarter than dogs – and trainability (or lack of) is indicative of that imho ;)

[03:40:41]

mycoDA:

is a prominent theory that trainability is inversely proportional to intelligence

[03:41:03]

earthnative:

I can't agree to that

[03:41:25]

earthnative:

stupid is untrainable, smart is 'maybe' trainable

[03:41:36]

mycoDA:

dumb grunts

[03:41:46]

mycoDA:

unthinking obedience

[03:41:59]

** wagnerrp hopes someone follows up with the proper response to his post on the mailing list **

[03:42:08]

earthnative:

I guess it's moer that "trainable" and "independant" are very different things, but both rank as a type of 'smart'

[03:42:49]

mycoDA:

our hardest to train dog is also the one that can open doors and gates, get off leads, bloody scary smart

[03:43:01]

mycoDA:

awful to control – he overthinks everything

[03:43:07]

earthnative:

lol

[03:45:23]

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[03:46:06]

** wagnerrp is going to be very disappointed if no one gets the reference **

[04:00:41]

iamlindoro:

fine, fine

[04:03:34]

wagnerrp:

aww...

[04:03:45]

wagnerrp:

i was hoping for 'rubbish! take the brain'

[04:11:49]

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[04:12:17]

wagnerrp:

craniumslows: video cards are only used for playback

[04:12:33]

wagnerrp:

if you do not intend to play video, you do not need a decent video card, or any video card at all for that matter

[04:12:53]

wagnerrp:

please note that you do need the X11 libraries and an X11 server somewhere to run the backend setup utility

[04:13:18]

craniumslows:

thanks

[04:13:28]

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[04:13:56]

craniumslows:

I have to get netflix working on a single machine type setup but once I do then I am planning on putting the noisy machine back in the closet

[04:14:21]

craniumslows:

I am relieved that I can avoid x11 and friends on the backend machine

[04:14:46]

wagnerrp:

you cannot use netflix under linux

[04:15:15]

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[04:15:20]

wagnerrp:

and while you dont need the X11 server, you do need at minimum the libraries

[04:16:50]

craniumslows:

ah sounds like I needto keep reading the wiki then

[04:18:41]

iamlindoro:

heh. http://www.fecitfacta.com/overview.png

[04:19:15]

iamlindoro:

eg, the thing I've done tonight instead of working on the bits of html setup I should have been

[04:22:17]

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[06:01:27]

Shadow__X:

iamlindoro: its looking very nice, kudos

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[07:07:27]

mycoDA:

was there a netsplit i missed? lol

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[07:41:52]

wagnerrp:

no, just not may people around this time of night/morning

[07:42:06]

mycoDA:

afternoon lol

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[08:03:03]

AndyCap:

anyone have a strong opinion about the western digital av-gp disks?

[08:03:14]

AndyCap:

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=150

[08:04:21]

wagnerrp:

dont spend any extra money for them

[08:05:20]

wagnerrp:

they are physically identical to the WD Green drives

[08:05:32]

wagnerrp:

they only differ in tuning values in the firmware

[08:06:54]

mycoDA:

personally like samsung f4eg

[08:07:21]

mycoDA:

quiet, low power, no retardipark etc

[08:08:00]

mycoDA:

andycap

[08:11:08]

AndyCap:

Hmm, there are too many models out there. :)

[08:12:11]

mycoDA:

samsung is very popular with the silencing community

[08:12:24]

AndyCap:

not too big on silencing,

[08:12:44]

mycoDA:

all round actually – the spinpoints are the fatest tferring 7200 drives

[08:12:54]

mycoDA:

*fastest

[08:13:41]

AndyCap:

the f4eg disks are dirt cheap and I could go with them too, but need to find another vendor for the other half of the data. :P

[08:13:42]

mycoDA:

actually have trouble recommending the wd black atm – the samsung comes so close all round

[08:14:00]

mycoDA:

more info?

[08:15:33]

mycoDA:

other half of the data andycap?

[08:15:47]

AndyCap:

the second copy. :)

[08:16:02]

mycoDA:

why not a second f4eg?

[08:16:27]

mycoDA:

if ur planning raid – be aware that you need to disable intellipark on wd greens

[08:16:27]

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[08:17:02]

AndyCap:

if they have a bug like deathstars that cause them to instadie, I'd rather have two different models

[08:17:04]

mycoDA:

pretty much any linux system really

[08:17:21]

mycoDA:

that is close to a decade ago lol

[08:17:42]

mycoDA:

that was ibm, who sold the business to hitachi

[08:17:47]

AndyCap:

anyhow. my mythtv raid I can just fill with f4eg and be done with it.

[08:18:14]

mycoDA:

over a decade wasnt it?

[08:18:29]

mycoDA:

i am doin lvm2 myself

[08:18:57]

AndyCap:

mycoDA: the point is that deathstars is a well-known example of bad production runs of disks happen

[08:19:04]

mycoDA:

dont get me wrong – my desktop and laptop are wd black, but my server is samsung

[08:19:20]

mycoDA:

ditto for seagate 7200.11, much more recently

[08:19:51]

mycoDA:

they become apparent pretty quickly these days

[08:21:24]

AndyCap:

anyhow, f4eg's are on sale this weekend and I'm buying.

[08:21:43]

AndyCap:

maybe the shipping container got dropped off a crane somewhere.

[08:22:17]

AndyCap:

In the words of cargolaw.com, "Ship happens"

[08:22:22]

mycoDA:

rofl

[08:24:05]

mycoDA:

what do the 2ts cost over there?

[08:24:36]

AndyCap:

for instance http://cargolaw.com/2011nightmare_GE.Class70.html

[08:25:33]

AndyCap:

107 USD according to google currency conversion

[08:26:15]

** wagnerrp bets that wasnt the response the #9694 reporter was hoping for **

[08:28:50]

AndyCap:

duplicate?

[08:31:17]

AndyCap:

mycoDA: now here's a good one http://cargolaw.com/2000nightmare_singles.only.html#ColorTruck

[08:39:50]

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[09:17:02]

artus37:

Hi all

[09:18:45]

artus37:

anybody using dvb-c?

[09:20:34]

AndyCap:

artus37: a little bit

[09:23:51]

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[09:24:05]

artus37:

I have some issues with EPG

[09:24:09]

artus37:

does not work

[09:24:14]

artus37:

any idea?

[09:25:29]

artus37:

I am using EIT

[09:27:59]

artus37:

anyway to increase log level perhaps to see whats happening?

[10:05:03]

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[12:30:53]

saloman:

heyyy

[12:31:14]

saloman:

anybody thr?

[12:34:24]

mycoDA:

a few

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[12:48:11]

wagnerrp:

guess a few isnt enough

[12:55:51]

mycoDA:

lol guess not

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[13:32:50]

dawud:

hi. sdlmame is usable from mythgame?

[13:33:47]

dawud:

s/(sdlmame) (is)/$2 $1/

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[13:48:27]

judget:

hi everyone. My lovely wife bought me a hd-pvr for my birthday. Any particular how to or docs available that you can recommend for using this with my mythtv 0.24?

[13:50:28]

judget:

Im on a cablevisoon system so I assume i have to use it with their STB

[13:53:01]

judget:

when i select the HD-PVR in the mythtv backend setup the probed info says failed to open

[13:58:33]

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[14:05:38]

mycoDA:

judget http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Hauppauge_HD-PVR

[14:08:43]

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[14:09:48]

judget:

thankyou mycoDA :)

[14:09:58]

judget:

exit

[14:10:03]

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[14:12:49]

dawud:

mmm ok, there's a wiki page. thanks anyway :)

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[15:45:41]

wagnerrp:

sphery: i booted #9734 over to you, i figure you can close it when youre done with your logging stuff

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[16:23:56]

straterra:

are there nes/snes/genesis/etc emulator support apps for myth?

[16:24:26]

wagnerrp:

mythgame

[16:24:44]

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[16:25:06]

trumee:

my cpu temperature goes too high when simultaneously watching LiveTV and encoding. Is it possible to run encoding jobs when LiveTv has stopped?

[16:25:22]

straterra:

cool...im looking at a shuttle atom/ion2 frontend...should i look at something beefier for myth + emulators?

[16:25:27]

ke^:

Where do i have problem

[16:25:32]

wagnerrp:

no, but you can specify a time frame during which to run the jobqueue

[16:26:00]

trumee:

wagnerrp: right. thant might be useful too. Where do i find that setting?

[16:26:14]

wagnerrp:

straterra: i would hope an Atom would be powerful enough to emulate a 20+yr old console

[16:26:40]

straterra:

i would hope too...just might go as new as n64/psx :P

[16:26:43]

wagnerrp:

but the general rule is that if you intend to do anything that cannot be handled by the graphics card, dont get an Atom

[16:27:08]

trumee:

My cpu sits at 71C when encoding

[16:27:19]

ke^:

i have 2 dvb cards different cards. I have setup them both under same picturesource(the channels that i scan with other of these cards) and use different inputsource

[16:27:27]

ke^:

but when i start to record

[16:27:45]

wagnerrp:

trumee: what CPU?

[16:28:01]

trumee:

wagnerrp: AMD Athlon(tm) II X2 250 Processor

[16:28:07]

ke^:

sometimes i can record sametime 2 different bunch of channels

[16:28:16]

ke^:

as i should when i have 2 tuners

[16:28:44]

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[16:28:58]

ke^:

but most time when i start record my mythtv starts record other bunch but the other bunch just gives filesize letter B

[16:29:00]

wagnerrp:

sounds like you have an inadequate heatsink, inadequate ventilation, or youve mounted it improperly

[16:29:37]

wagnerrp:

that chip shouldnt be anywhere near that hot even under extended full load

[16:29:51]

ke^:

my mythbackendlog only gives me error of: ProgramInfo(2011_20110417192500.mpg), Error: GetPlaybackURL: '2011_20110417192500.mpg' should be local, but it can not be found.

[16:29:54]

ke^:

example

[16:29:57]

trumee:

wagnerrp: yes, i think the same. Unfortunately, it is a remote system. I will have physical access to it in a week

[16:30:33]

trumee:

wagnerrp: what temperature should it have at max load?

[16:30:58]

ke^:

first card access to record at the right place without any problems i have also right ok with both cards so its not system privaledges. Both cards also works fine alone...

[16:31:12]

wagnerrp:

you should be idling in the low 30s, and be no more than low 50s under load

[16:31:34]

trumee:

wagnerrp: oops!

[16:32:34]

trumee:

i will stop all recordings before i fix the cooling

[16:34:37]

trumee:

wagnerrp: with Livetv at 20% load, cpu temperature is 61C :(

[16:35:10]

wagnerrp:

even with the stock cooler on that chip, you should be nowhere near that

[16:36:04]

trumee:

wagnerrp: guess the heatsink has dislodged

[16:36:40]

wagnerrp:

or caked in crap

[16:37:09]

trumee:

wagnerrp: i am going to stick an Arctic Freezer heat sink on it http://www.arctic.ac/en/p/detail?sArticle=4.%3F#

[16:37:24]

trumee:

wagnerrp: yes, there is a high chance it has dust settled on it

[16:37:53]

trumee:

wagnerrp: there was some building work in that room, which might have settled on the cpu

[16:38:02]

wagnerrp:

small fan

[16:38:20]

trumee:

wagnerrp: its come down to 55C now with LiveTv

[16:38:24]

trumee:

wagnerrp: small fan?

[16:38:50]

trumee:

wagnerrp: Arctic freezer has a nice big fan

[16:39:51]

wagnerrp:

nah, 92mm is small

[16:40:03]

trumee:

is it!

[16:40:09]

trumee:

what is a big fan then?

[16:40:18]

wagnerrp:

if youre going after market air cooling, i would go with scythe or thermalright

[16:41:22]

trumee:

wagnerrp: blimey thermalright is expensive

[16:41:40]

trumee:

wagnerrp: arctic freezer was only £15, thermalrigth is £50

[16:42:37]

wagnerrp:

must have found it cheap

[16:43:00]

trumee:

wagnerrp: how about replacing the fan on arctic freezer?

[16:43:08]

wagnerrp:

i was seeing $40 for that arctic freezer

[16:43:24]

wagnerrp:

and only $40-$50 for the thermalright and scythe stuff

[16:43:28]

trumee:

wagnerrp: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/arctic-cooling . . . to-130-watts

[16:44:18]

wagnerrp:

i think i paid $45 for a TR SI-120 sitting in one of my frontends, still in use after 6 years

[16:44:35]

wagnerrp:

and i got a scythe ninja, still in use in my desktop after 4

[16:44:42]

wagnerrp:

(for $40)

[16:45:35]

wagnerrp:

i just look at that Arctic and see... unducted fan?

[16:45:39]

wagnerrp:

these people are clueless

[16:48:03]

trumee:

wagnerrp: what do you mean by unducted fan?

[16:48:16]

wagnerrp:

i mean its a fan, with no duct

[16:48:18]

trumee:

wagnerrp: this looks like arctic freezer? http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu/053/scnj3000-detail.html

[16:48:20]

wagnerrp:

no plastic shroud

[16:49:01]

wagnerrp:

theres good reason they have that plastic duct on that fan

[16:49:07]

wagnerrp:

and its not just to protect your fingers

[16:49:56]

wagnerrp:

when i see things like that arctic freezer, i envision some product manager saying 'hey, lets remove the duct, it will look futuristic and cool and sell more'

[16:50:30]

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[16:50:32]

wagnerrp:

and not having any thermodynamics or aerodynamics people to counter him, it goes into production

[16:51:06]

wagnerrp:

unducted fans are a "bad thing"

[16:51:20]

wagnerrp:

airfoils have a thing called induced loss

[16:51:37]

wagnerrp:

that is airflow that rather than going front to back, spills over the tip

[16:51:47]

wagnerrp:

to prevent induced loss, you increase the aspect ratio

[16:52:12]

wagnerrp:

which is why gliders have long, narrow wings, and helicopters have long narrow rotors

[16:52:30]

wagnerrp:

if high aspect ratio is not an option for whatever reason, you can use winglets or ducts

[16:52:36]

wagnerrp:

which act to prevent such spillage

[16:53:07]

wagnerrp:

thus the lower your aspect ratio, and the fan on that arctic freezer is very low aspect ratio, the more important the duct becomes

[16:54:11]

wagnerrp:

the fact that theyre using a fan rather than compressor, and pumping against a dense heatsink which is going to cause adverse pressure, will only serve to increase spillage

[16:54:32]

wagnerrp:

the bulk of the airflow from that fan will just be wasted out the sides, rather than flowing through the heatsink

[16:54:39]

trumee:

well, Arctic freezer is a step above my stock cooler

[16:54:53]

wagnerrp:

resulting in much higher than necessary fan RPM, and much higher than necessary noise level

[16:55:00]

trumee:

and since i have already bought arctic, i dont have a choice

[16:55:36]

trumee:

i will investigate if it is possible to have the fan replaced

[16:56:01]

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[16:56:07]

wagnerrp:

you will need to wire it to the heatsink manually

[16:56:22]

wagnerrp:

since the fan they are using has a non-standard clip mechanism to attach it to the heatsink

[16:58:07]

wagnerrp:

my ultimate point is that a company who would sell such a fan doesnt seem to know much about airflow, so why should i trust their product

[16:58:53]

wagnerrp:

intel does the same crap with their stock coolers, and i never understood it

[16:59:05]

wagnerrp:

of course i did understand why their coolers were always underperforming

[16:59:07]

trumee:

wagnerrp: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article285-page1.html

[17:00:39]

trumee:

wagnerrp: your theory is correct as stated in the last paragraph, http://www.silentpcreview.com/article285-page2.html

[17:01:53]

wagnerrp:

yeah, the zalmans are the only type of design in which a ductless fan makes sense, since the heatsink IS the duct

[17:04:27]

trumee:

wagnerrp: how good is this, http://www.scan.co.uk/products/zalman-cnps5x- . . . -754-939-940

[17:05:37]

wagnerrp:

well if youve already bought the arctic, it will work well enough

[17:06:15]

trumee:

yes, perhaps i should stick with arctic for now

[17:06:17]

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[17:06:27]

wagnerrp:

zalmans have always been well regarded for noise, not the best performing, but quiet

[17:07:21]

trumee:

i dont care much about noise, but cooling is more important

[17:07:49]

wagnerrp:

this machine is not sitting in your living room?

[17:08:33]

trumee:

wagnerrp: No

[17:09:38]

wagnerrp:

then screw it, slap a 6krpm Delta on there and call it a day

[17:13:24]

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[17:15:34]

straterra:

hmm...im trying to decide on atom/ion2 vs i3/integrated...how well does the i3 integrated gpu work?

[17:16:17]

wagnerrp:

from benchmarks, seems to be roughly equivalent to the 9400m/gt218m in the ION systems

[17:17:08]

wagnerrp:

nothing great, but still much much improved from previous fare

[17:17:42]

straterra:

ah, ok...so the gpu is similar...but the i3 is much faster

[17:18:31]

wagnerrp:

immeasurably faster

[17:18:41]

wagnerrp:

(actually, it can be measured to ~6–8x faster)

[17:21:00]

straterra:

then ill likely go the i3 route. im sure they can play n64 games...after all, its just the frontend, so it wont ever be encoding

[17:22:34]

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[17:28:40]

trumee:

wagnerrp: On my "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6600 @ 2.40GHz", peak load produces 71C

[17:28:59]

trumee:

wagnerrp: and i am using arctic freezer on this machine too

[17:29:19]

trumee:

wagnerrp: md5sum < /dev/urandom is generating 100% load

[17:31:01]

wagnerrp:

even the stock intel should fair better than that

[17:31:19]

trumee:

wagnerrp: 73C now

[17:31:26]

wagnerrp:

there must be a lot of crap on those, or theyre not mounted properly

[17:32:34]

trumee:

wagnerrp: hmm. i did take the fluff off few weeks back. So probably the thermal paste needs to be applied again

[17:33:39]

wagnerrp:

fluff?

[17:34:05]

trumee:

wagnerrp: fluff=crap

[17:34:50]

wagnerrp:

thermal grease is good for a couple months until the liquid dries up

[17:34:56]

wagnerrp:

beyond that, theyre good until disturbed

[17:35:19]

wagnerrp:

once you disturb them, and break the contact, it will not re-flow and will need to be re-applied

[17:35:26]

trumee:

wagnerrp: yes, i think this is the reason that my both machine are recording high temperatures

[17:35:41]

trumee:

wagnerrp: they machines have been moved around

[17:35:46]

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[19:18:03]

sphery:

wagnerrp: heh, I was about to boot it to you to close after your command line parser changes, but this way works. :)

[19:18:12]

sphery:

(#9734, that is)

[19:19:39]

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[19:45:49]

sphery:

kormoc_afk: Seems that the point is that with the extremely high cost of HDD storage, today, it doesn't make sense to have a "just in case" couple of GB of swap. After all, a 2GB swap space can cost as much as $0.10 or $0.12 on today's HDDs. Do you really think everyone can afford insurance that requires a one-time payment of $0.12 (or simply borrowing from the multi-GB or multi-TB HDD you have for your MythTV system, anyway)...

[19:47:02]

sphery:

Instead, just go out and spend $40 to get 4GB more RAM. Then get yourself a better mobo that can handle 8GB RAM. Then upgrade processors and/or memory, etc., as required.

[19:48:07]

wagnerrp:

so why is a swap file better than a partition?

[19:49:08]

sphery:

He was saying that a swap file is nice because you can put it anywhere that's convenient and make it any size you want and change sizes, etc.

[19:49:15]

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[19:49:29]

sphery:

that I'll agree with. The rest, not so much. I set up swap, too, since HDD is cheap.

[19:49:39]

wagnerrp:

ah

[19:49:50]

sphery:

(in other words, I agree with kormoc_afk's argument, not the other argument)

[19:49:57]

wagnerrp:

and i suppose once you hit swap, any hope for performance is out the window

[19:50:20]

wagnerrp:

so theres no reason to allocate a sequential block

[19:50:41]

sphery:

yeah, and as long as the swap file isn't fragmented, there's really no performance difference between it and a partition

[19:51:10]

sphery:

so I presume he dd's 512M of /dev/zero to init his file

[19:51:21]

sphery:

I still have partitions because I always have

[19:52:22]

sphery:

I just see the "you don't need swap" as being a little like the "you don't need a WM" argument... It's "optimizing" for optimizing's sake--and generally isn't really optimizing anything

[19:52:47]

sphery:

besides, I do occasionally hit swap on my systems

[19:53:33]

wagnerrp:

yeah

[19:53:37]

wagnerrp:

you dont want to use swap

[19:53:44]

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[19:53:52]

wagnerrp:

but, you want it there for a 'what if...'

[19:53:56]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I'm assuming that means I've used a tiny bit of swap--and without it, I would have had OOM killer kill something? http://pastebin.com/TuC8ZSQZ

[19:54:06]

sphery:

38MB of swap used?

[19:54:13]

sphery:

(on a 4GB system)

[20:06:44]

sphery:

wagnerrp: btw, is your/Beirdo's new myth_system stuff in 0.24-fixes or just unstable, right now? http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/9735 links to https://launchpadlibrarian.net/69716344/ThreadStacktrace.txt (which doesn't have much but does show MythSystemReaper::run() and our MythSignalingTimer hack (though it claims the segv is in __libc_start_main(), so I have no idea what's happening. (It's yesterday's 0.24-fixes.)

[20:07:01]

wagnerrp:

just trunk

[20:07:07]

sphery:

weird

[20:07:11]

wagnerrp:

was added in early december

[20:07:35]

sphery:

if it's really crashing in __libc_start_main(), I'd start to suspect a bad build

[20:08:26]

sphery:

guess I'll leave it for someone who knows compiler and glibc better than I

[20:09:26]

sphery:

heh, it uploads a mythbackend log for a mythtv-setup crash

[20:10:46]

sphery:

oh, I'm guessing it crashed someone in the main thread, but since the user didn't install debug symbols, the only function name it had on the thread was __libc_start_main() at #2

[20:10:47]

wagnerrp:

the MythSignalingTimer is something not ours

[20:10:50]

wagnerrp:

dont know what that is

[20:11:02]

wagnerrp:

and we had a reaper before the rewrite

[20:11:15]

wagnerrp:

this looks like 0.24

[20:11:26]

wagnerrp:

if it were 0.25, there would be another three threads for mythsystem

[20:11:45]

sphery:

MythSignalingTimer is a hack that was put in because of the 7%/14% spin we got with QTimer and our way-too-high refresh rate

[20:12:36]

sphery:

I hope to rip it out after dropping the UI animation rate for http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/9579 ("#9579: 100% CPU on one core when paused")

[20:12:41]

wagnerrp:

the reaper is the thread that listens for child processes to end

[20:12:57]

sphery:

though based on the latest comment on that thread, it may be due to PulseAudio borkage

[20:13:04]

sphery:

(still, I'm reducing the ani rate)

[20:13:15]

wagnerrp:

in the case of the myth_system() command, we wait on a mutex lock, and when the child terminates, the mutex is unlocked, and myth_system returns

[20:13:15]

sphery:

Yeah, it is 0.24

[20:13:24]

sphery:

that's why I was asking if the new stuff was in 0.24

[20:13:28]

sphery:

sorry, should have mentioned that

[20:13:42]

wagnerrp:

0.24 and 0.25 are the same behavior in that regard (just completely rewritten code)

[20:14:27]

sphery:

so I think the problem is whatever happens at #1 in thread 1

[20:15:04]

sphery:

actually, #1 is probably main(), but it calls something and results in the crash at #0

[20:15:22]

sphery:

no clue what, though

[20:16:15]

sphery:

wonder if *buntu has debug symbols for mythtv-setup binary (and if they're just some other package from the lib symbols that seem to be installed)

[20:16:17]

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[20:17:21]

[R]:

there are -dbg packages

[20:17:39]

[R]:

mythtv-dbg should covery everyhtign

[20:18:08]

sphery:

hmmm... do they also have specific ones that a user may have installed instead?

[20:18:09]

wagnerrp:

sphery: think it would be worth documenting what all threads we run and what they do?

[20:18:32]

[R]:

mythtv-dbg is the only debug package

[20:18:39]

[R]:

theres also mythplugins-dbg

[20:18:47]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I'm sure no one would complain about it... don't know how much upkeep it will take, though

[20:19:09]

sphery:

hmmm... so no idea why there are no symbols for mythtv-setup here...

[20:21:42]

wagnerrp:

did you know that neosporin is only good for two years?

[20:22:02]

[R]:

wagnerrp: only?

[20:22:41]

wagnerrp:

yeah, cut one of my fingers, got infected, so i was using some old neosporin i found in a cabinet that said it had expired in 2001

[20:22:50]

wagnerrp:

it didnt do anything

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[20:52:56]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro, kormoc_afk: big load of changes on the HDPVR page today

[20:53:04]

wagnerrp:

one of you might want to give it a read through for accuracy

[20:53:06]

MMlosh:

Hi! I am having trouble with broadcasted RTP IPTV service (a week or two, running .24 from mythbuntu) I suspect something has changed on their side.. because tcpdump now usually dumps no packets (and says 1235632 dropped by kernel at exit instead)

[20:54:37]

[R]:

wagnerrp: he cahnged "anticipated" to "popular"

[20:54:38]

[R]:

hehe

[20:55:09]

[R]:

fixed up some compliation things

[20:55:20]

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[20:56:33]

MMlosh:

and while mplayer fail immediately.. vlc is works.... (mythtv show (TLA_) partial lock)

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[20:59:53]

MMlosh:

I take everything back.. mplayer works now.. the service is just fishy

[21:00:44]

[R]:

ffs... 16 & pregnant... so ridiculous

[21:01:13]

[R]:

who gets a belly ring when they are pregnant... that so disgusting

[21:01:36]

wagnerrp:

[R]: what do i keep telling you about these things?

[21:01:40]

[R]:

haha

[21:01:41]

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[21:02:01]

[R]:

wagnerrp: i WAS watching parking wars before... new season started last night

[21:02:26]

wagnerrp:

parking... wars... sounds like a lot of action there

[21:02:36]

[R]:

there is

[21:02:40]

[R]:

people yelling at the meter maids

[21:02:47]

[R]:

and people yelling at the people at the impound

[21:02:51]

[R]:

and people yelling at the people who boot cars

[21:03:22]

kisak:

and a senior citizen chasing a meter maid around

[21:03:39]

[R]:

yup, that was hilarious

[21:04:35]

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Shadow__X:

do you have more channels to choose from?

[21:14:12]

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[21:15:14]

[R]:

wtf... shes breastfeeding simply for the reason its cheaper than formula... stupid kids

[21:16:08]

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[21:16:50]

Shadow__X:

apparently there are girls trying to gt pregnant just to be on the show

[21:16:58]

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[21:17:14]

Shadow__X:

it would appear when you do not have much going on you are willing to grasp at whatever straws you can to get attention

[21:17:33]

[R]:

i just don't understnad why someone would be on tha tshow... but i guess if girls are thinking like that

[21:18:14]

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[21:18:56]

Shadow__X:

i do not understand it either

[21:19:48]

[R]:

broadcasting your sluttyness to the world

[21:21:03]

wagnerrp:

easiest place to pick up girls is the abortion center exit

[21:21:56]

[R]:

"id rather stay with her than go to class"

[21:21:57]

[R]:

W T F

[21:22:05]

[R]:

shes already dropping out of school

[21:22:14]

[R]:

wagnerrp: eww

[21:22:45]

wagnerrp:

dropping out of... high school?

[21:22:56]

[R]:

college

[21:23:08]

wagnerrp:

you said she was 16

[21:23:17]

[R]:

she was in high school, got pregnant, dropped out

[21:23:19]

[R]:

did home school

[21:23:26]

[R]:

finish taht ,had the baby, and now she started college

[21:24:44]

straterra:

16 is highschool age in the US

[21:25:13]

[R]:

i think she was 17 at the beginning

[21:25:25]

[R]:

the show is '16 and pregnant' but the ages varry

[21:25:28]

wagnerrp:

straterra: sure, but i bet i could have passed the GED when i was 13, and gotten into a community collage

[21:25:42]

[R]:

wagnerrp: haha

[21:25:50]

straterra:

wagnerrp: oh..most likely

[21:26:20]

straterra:

community college was easier than high school for me...but i went to a nice zomgprivate high school

[21:26:41]

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[21:26:47]

[R]:

they're making a new fast and furious movie

[21:27:25]

straterra:

oh god...i saw that

[21:27:46]

straterra:

"lets total the charger again...and rebuild it! im sure the frame is fine..."

[21:27:47]

[R]:

i never saw that "new" one a few years ago

[21:28:18]

straterra:

eh...the "new one" was the best since the original

[21:28:34]

[R]:

its not on the netflix

[21:30:38]

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[21:31:24]

straterra:

aha..that reminds me

[21:31:37]

straterra:

do people watch netflix from their myth frontends?

[21:31:51]

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[21:31:52]

wagnerrp:

how would they do so?

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Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +v iamlindoro

[21:32:26]

straterra:

no idea...that was my next question

[21:32:53]

wagnerrp:

netflix streaming uses silverlight

[21:33:00]

wagnerrp:

silverlight doesnt run on linux

[21:33:02]

[R]:

well if you used the win32 frontend

[21:33:05]

[R]:

and used a seperate program for it

[21:33:11]

[R]:

that could qualify as "using the frontend"

[21:33:15]

[R]:

where frontend==computer

[21:33:35]

wagnerrp:

in theory, the win32 frontend should be able to do it using mythbrowser internally

[21:33:52]

straterra:

i thought there was moon...something for silverlight on linux

[21:33:55]

[R]:

does mythbrowser on windows support browser plugins?

[21:33:59]

straterra:

oh wait...that isnt 2.x

[21:34:01]

[R]:

straterra: doesnt support the DRM

[21:34:15]

wagnerrp:

and with a bit of tweaking, mythnetvision could support authentication

[21:36:35]

straterra:

gotcha

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straterra:

i mean...i normally use my 360

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straterra:

Uh oh...mythtv-setup seg faults in my OpenSUSE 11.4 VM :x

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MythLogBot@irc.freenode.net :: #mythtv-users

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