Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Friday, March 11th, 2011, 00:01 UTC

[00:01:52]

kormoc:

sadly, not good. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1637976/

[00:03:03]

wagnerrp:

so its crappy wanna-be porn

[00:03:07]

kormoc:

yeah

[00:03:44]

wagnerrp:

one of the actresses was 'born in a geodesic dome built by her parents on the top of a small mountain'

[00:03:54]

wagnerrp:

she really had no chance of living her life as a normal did she...

[00:04:15]

kormoc:

yeah...

[00:13:02]

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Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +v GreyFoxx

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[02:44:33]

clgshaft:

sphery: Thanks for the heads up

[02:47:31]

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[03:36:34]

Beirdo:

I should make some dinner.

[03:37:07]

[R]:

beef. it's whats for dinner

[03:37:27]

wagnerrp:

but... where is it?

[03:43:53]

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[03:52:58]

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[03:54:30]

johnsu01:

so, on this mythfrontend, no keys are doing anything during live TV

[03:54:50]

wagnerrp:

keys... on your remote?

[03:54:59]

johnsu01:

no, it's a laptop, so just the keyboard

[03:55:29]

wagnerrp:

only reason i could think of it not accepting input is if some other application stole focus

[03:55:33]

johnsu01:

I should say, that the keys stop working once there is actually a channel with signal — the arrows were working fine for browsing through channels

[03:56:29]

johnsu01:

doesn't seem to be the window manager... at least, other windows are not getting the keystrokes

[04:01:06]

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[04:01:13]

johnsu01:

which means there's no way for me to quit besides killing the frontend

[04:01:17]

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[04:01:47]

Technicus:

Streaming media with VLC, all the tutorials suggest that it is a straight forward simple process . . . but I say otherwise . . . anyone here have experience streaming media across a network using VLC and are you willing to assist me with getting it to work on my network?

[04:01:54]

Technicus:

Hello . . .

[04:01:58]

Technicus:

:)

[04:02:06]

wagnerrp:

erm... #vlc ?

[04:02:36]

[R]:

lol

[04:03:00]

wagnerrp:

johnsu01: there is code in mythtv to ignore inputs during certain events

[04:03:15]

wagnerrp:

but i thought that was only if special flags were used when calling external programs

[04:03:20]

wagnerrp:

and then i thought it only affected IR usage

[04:03:33]

Technicus:

Everyone at #vlc sends me to tutorials that . . . do not work for me . . .

[04:03:48]

wagnerrp:

everyone here doesnt use VLC

[04:04:07]

johnsu01:

wagnerrp: yeah, something weird is going on, second run I just got a segfault when I hit ESC during live TV

[04:04:19]

wagnerrp:

what version of mythtv are you running?

[04:04:52]

johnsu01:

0.24+fixes20110309–0.0 in debian for the frontend

[04:05:01]

Technicus:

Just though I would give it a shot, since I found this VLC tutorial on a Mythtv page: [ http://parker1.co.uk/mythtv_stream.php ].

[04:05:15]

johnsu01:

0.24+fixes20110225–0.1 for backend

[04:05:22]

wagnerrp:

thats a parker1.co.uk page, mythtv pages are at http://www.mythtv.org/

[04:05:56]

wagnerrp:

johnsu01: you dont have a core file from that segfault by any chance, do you?

[04:06:02]

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[04:06:35]

johnsu01:

wagnerrp: no, but I could probably strace it and get it to happen again..

[04:07:03]

Technicus:

Well, it blatently represents Mythtv and discusses VLC. Just though I would ask . . . I have been at this for hours and I'm going blind . . .

[04:07:12]

wagnerrp:

strace, or gdb, or just enable core dumps with ulimit would work

[04:07:20]

wagnerrp:

just looking for a backtrace

[04:08:01]

wagnerrp:

Technicus: mythtv does not use VLC for any purpose

[04:08:16]

wagnerrp:

there are some people who use VLC to feed the IPTV virtual tuner in mythtv

[04:08:26]

wagnerrp:

and other that use it to stream recordings through mythweb

[04:08:39]

wagnerrp:

and others who use it for transcoding

[04:08:47]

wagnerrp:

but none of it is official or common

[04:09:28]

Technicus:

Sure, what kind of streaming is possible with Mythtv?

[04:09:41]

Technicus:

Please, pardon my ignorance.

[04:09:54]

wagnerrp:

mythtv is a distributed tv recording program

[04:10:04]

wagnerrp:

you can have one or more backends recording tv on the network

[04:10:18]

wagnerrp:

with one or more frontends accessing those recordings and other videos, shared up by the backends

[04:10:43]

Technicus:

What about using it to stream to in embeded HTML5 player on a web page?

[04:11:03]

Technicus:

That is a goal I am attempting to achieve with VLC.

[04:11:28]

wagnerrp:

currently, there is a proof-of-concept tool in mythweb which will stream recordings through an embedded flash player

[04:11:30]

johnsu01:

wagnerrp: made it happen again, got a coredump...

[04:12:02]

wagnerrp:

but it is largely considered dead end code

[04:12:12]

Technicus:

That seems interesting . . .

[04:12:15]

johnsu01:

271MB yeesh

[04:12:19]

wagnerrp:

waiting for the player to be replaced by an html5 implementation

[04:12:38]

wagnerrp:

and the transcoder to be a facility provided by the backend, rather than a local ffmpeg instance

[04:12:53]

Technicus:

From what I have read, HTML5 video is fairly simple.

[04:13:02]

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[04:13:17]

Beirdo:

and also waiting for the cows to come home... and for certain people to have more spare time :)

[04:13:42]

Technicus:

. . . see if that holds true in practice :)

[04:15:03]

wagnerrp:

johnsu01: load it up with 'gdb mythfrontend mythfrontend.core', and then 'bt'

[04:15:10]

wagnerrp:

pastebin the full text of the backtrace

[04:17:19]

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[04:19:05]

johnsu01:

wagnerrp: http://paste.debian.net/110316/

[04:19:34]

wagnerrp:

eew...

[04:20:09]

johnsu01:

that happens consistently when I hit ESC twice during live tv playback

[04:20:28]

[R]:

people sitll use xvmc?

[04:20:44]

wagnerrp:

go into the playback profiles, and choose 'Slim'

[04:20:46]

Beirdo:

heh, not if they use master

[04:20:51]

johnsu01:

should I not be? it's a laptop, not my main frontend

[04:20:57]

wagnerrp:

what processor?

[04:21:32]

wagnerrp:

rule of thumb around here, if your processor is fast enough to get by without xvmc, do so

[04:21:40]

johnsu01:

Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU L9400 @ 1.86GHz

[04:21:40]

wagnerrp:

if your processor is not fast enough, upgrade

[04:21:41]

[R]:

and if its not... get a new one

[04:21:41]

[R]:

haha

[04:21:59]

wagnerrp:

yeah, thats plenty fast for anything xvmc would otherwise help with

[04:22:07]

wagnerrp:

xvmc only does mpeg2, and then only partial offload

[04:22:19]

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[04:22:24]

wagnerrp:

and it brings with it all sorts of complications and restrictions that no one wants to suffer through

[04:22:47]

[R]:

i used to try to use xvmc back in the day... had that crazy b/w overlay thing

[04:23:37]

wagnerrp:

what graphics chip?

[04:23:55]

wagnerrp:

an X4500M might get by with using the opengl renderer

[04:24:06]

wagnerrp:

anything less and youre probably stuck using xv-blit

[04:24:36]

wagnerrp:

either way, try Slim and see if that fixes things

[04:24:47]

wagnerrp:

and if so, you can try opengl from there

[04:25:21]

johnsu01:

using the i915

[04:26:14]

johnsu01:

GM45

[04:28:10]

johnsu01:

cool, yeah, keys are working with slim..

[04:29:45]

johnsu01:

wagnerrp: thanks for the help

[04:30:12]

wagnerrp:

yeah, the 915 graphics were all pretty underwhelming, better to just stick with the stock Slim settings and xv-blit

[04:30:56]

wagnerrp:

GMA900 based

[04:32:15]

simcop2387:

What's the current "standard" for either just transcoding videos or streaming them to a remote location? i'd like to be moving sometime in the future and want to leech from my parents still.

[04:32:55]

wagnerrp:

erm... get your own cable and backend?

[04:33:55]

simcop2387:

that'll happen after i pay for other things, i'm the one paying for schedules direct still.

[04:34:18]

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[04:34:56]

wagnerrp:

there is the flash streaming in mythweb, but theres no real 'standard'

[04:35:23]

wagnerrp:

primarily because anyone who both wants it, and has the time and capability to do it, would rather just take the recordings with them on a hard drive when they go out

[04:35:57]

wagnerrp:

and because thats the more legally acceptable route, as far as television rebroadcasts and copyright issues are concerned

[04:36:03]

simcop2387:

yes

[04:36:21]

simcop2387:

but that doesn't let me watch the new shows at all without a 3000mi drive of plane flight

[04:36:28]

simcop2387:

s/of/or/

[04:36:58]

wagnerrp:

go to good will, pick up an old tv, a cheap converter box, and an antenna?

[04:37:37]

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[04:37:41]

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[04:38:23]

simcop2387:

likely i'd just get an hd-homerun or something like that, cost about the same as the tv and converter box

[04:40:39]

wagnerrp:

provided sufficient bandwidth on both ends, you could always VPN in and run a frontend

[04:43:49]

Beirdo:

wagnerrp: your milestone setting seems to work fine :)

[04:43:54]

Beirdo:

good work

[04:44:16]

simcop2387:

wagnerrp: that's the problem, not QUITE enough bandwidth. 250–300k/s so some transcoding has to be done.

[04:44:29]

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[04:45:22]

wagnerrp:

thats nothing like enough bandwidth

[04:45:30]

simcop2387:

yea

[04:45:36]

wagnerrp:

you would be looking at 2–2.5MBps to make this work

[04:46:40]

simcop2387:

i've been tempted to play with having mediatomb or some other upnp server setup so i can have it transcode things on the fly for that much bandwidth (fine for SD stuff at least)

[04:47:01]

wagnerrp:

i dont know what purpose a UPNP server would serve

[04:47:06]

simcop2387:

then i could use the vpn and xbmc or something like that

[04:47:34]

simcop2387:

nicer frontend that i don't have to write myself since i'm not aware of anything else that'll do it

[04:47:57]

wagnerrp:

most VPNs would filter the discovery packets used by UPNP

[04:48:40]

simcop2387:

i've got openvpn setup so that that won't happen. i need it for ipv6 over it anyway

[04:49:21]

wagnerrp:

dont know why you would need a VPN just for ipv6

[04:49:23]

Beirdo:

ah come ON

[04:49:44]

Beirdo:

I have a commflag sitting in "Searching for Logo" for almost 2h now

[04:50:05]

[R]:

Beirdo: i thought you fixed it

[04:50:12]

[R]:

(that was you who comitted that change wasn't it?)

[04:50:16]

simcop2387:

so i can get at the machines on the LAN over ipv6 without worrying about the firewall

[04:50:27]

Beirdo:

this isn't a 0-byte recording

[04:50:31]

Beirdo:

it's just being slow

[04:50:53]

Beirdo:

sorry for almost 1h

[04:51:07]

[R]:

oh

[04:51:10]

Beirdo:

it started recording at 7, started the commflag at 8

[04:51:23]

[R]:

any errors?

[04:51:32]

[R]:

i get h264 errors from my commflag occationally

[04:51:33]

Beirdo:

just the usual crap

[04:51:58]

Beirdo:

yeah, that stuff... which IIRC are because our seeking still isn't perfect

[04:52:17]

wagnerrp:

simcop2387: set up a tunnel broker account and use real IPv6

[04:52:33]

simcop2387:

wagnerrp: this is real ipv6, dual stack from comcast

[04:52:34]

Beirdo:

i.e. the seektables are slightly off, so when we seek it's pointing close to where it should be, but not perfectly, so we see crapola

[04:52:52]

wagnerrp:

so set up a tunnel broker for remote ipv6

[04:53:24]

wagnerrp:

or rig up your own tunnel endpoint

[04:53:39]

Beirdo:

2011-03–10 20:53:07.508 [h264 @ 0x7fd726231d20]mmco: unref short failure

[04:53:39]

simcop2387:

what do you think i've done with the VPN?

[04:53:50]

Beirdo:

those silly things

[04:53:54]

wagnerrp:

set up far more than you need

[04:54:20]

Beirdo:

speaking of IPv6... we should get GreyFoxx to commit that :)

[04:54:39]

simcop2387:

i also need secure access over ipv4, don't know how many times that's come in handy when i forgot to copy something from home

[04:54:59]

Beirdo:

heh

[04:55:10]

Beirdo:

I ssh to home via IPv6

[04:55:15]

Beirdo:

screw v4

[04:55:46]

wagnerrp:

one way or another, youre still using a domain name

[04:55:49]

wagnerrp:

whats the difference?

[04:56:02]

Beirdo:

you don't need to

[04:56:13]

Beirdo:

but it sure is easier to remember

[04:56:33]

simcop2387:

and you can have multiple machine with port 22 open to ssh into without having to buy a lot of ipv4 addresses

[04:56:35]

wagnerrp:

you know your /64 allocation off hand?

[04:56:58]

wagnerrp:

simcop2387: with that comcast stuff, did they give you a /64 or /48?

[04:57:00]

Beirdo:

yes

[04:57:05]

Beirdo:

:)

[04:57:26]

Beirdo:

2001:1938:270::/48

[04:57:27]

simcop2387:

wagnerrp: /64 right now

[04:57:35]

simcop2387:

at least that's what they've given me

[04:57:51]

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[04:57:57]

simcop2387:

they seem to like playing with things still

[04:58:10]

simcop2387:

oh no i'm wrong /32

[04:58:19]

simcop2387:

2001:55c:1862:360f::1/32 they changed it finally

[04:58:53]

Beirdo:

ummm

[04:58:57]

Beirdo:

I don't think so

[04:58:57]

wagnerrp:

so they gave you a 64, but its allocated on a shared /32

[04:59:12]

Beirdo:

yeah, they gave you a /64

[04:59:13]

simcop2387:

yea i read that wrong when i was looking at it it is a /64

[04:59:21]

wagnerrp:

2001:55c:1862:360f is one /64

[04:59:23]

simcop2387:

sorry tired tonight

[04:59:36]

wagnerrp:

2001:55c is comcast's /32

[04:59:41]

simcop2387:

yea

[05:00:00]

simcop2387:

they still won't do RDNS as much as i want it

[05:01:09]

Beirdo:

hehe

[05:01:33]

Beirdo:

That reminds me... look for temperature sensor chips.

[05:01:56]

Beirdo:

my kegerator HAS to be on the web.

[05:02:37]

wagnerrp:

chips? just stick two wires together and twist

[05:03:24]

Beirdo:

ummm. and what. measure the current differences?

[05:03:29]

Beirdo:

I don't want thermistors

[05:03:48]

simcop2387:

they have to be two different types of metal to do it decently too i believe

[05:04:17]

wagnerrp:

yeah, plus you need a bridge circuit, plus the A/D hardware

[05:04:20]

Beirdo:

I'd rather use a cheap LM75-like chip

[05:04:31]

wagnerrp:

yeah, chip would be far easier

[05:04:46]

Beirdo:

run twisted pair with I2C through the fridge :)

[05:05:25]

simcop2387:

ah no i'm thinking of a thermocouple where you measure the voltage it's generating

[05:05:34]

Beirdo:

oooh, I could use a beagleboard :)

[05:06:02]

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[05:06:16]

Beirdo:

would be massive overkill for that board

[05:06:25]

simcop2387:

Beirdo: they make i2c fan controllers too so you can turn a fan on if it gets too warm

[05:07:34]

Beirdo:

umm, what good would a fan inside a fridge do?

[05:07:57]

wagnerrp:

blow

[05:08:28]

simcop2387:

move cold air onto the keg faster

[05:08:55]

Beirdo:

meh.

[05:09:04]

Beirdo:

I have the opposite problem right now

[05:09:32]

wagnerrp:

surely its not freezing the beer

[05:09:59]

simcop2387:

there's i2c relay drivers too so you can turn the compressor on and off?

[05:10:33]

Beirdo:

at this point, it's still empty, but I can't get it to stay at 40–45F very easily

[05:10:45]

simcop2387:

hmm

[05:10:48]

Beirdo:

it seems to like 30–35F in the main compartment

[05:10:52]

Beirdo:

it works too well :)

[05:11:34]

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[05:26:33]

Shadow__X:

how do i override the audio setting for mythfrontend

[05:28:17]

[R]:

which audio settings

[05:29:20]

Shadow__X:

the default audio setting. Somehow My settings on my linux machine somehow got set to directx and keeps seg faulting

[05:29:40]

[R]:

when does it seg fault?

[05:30:20]

Shadow__X:

right after it says Pulse: pulseaduio resume ok

[05:30:26]

[R]:

and when is that?

[05:30:34]

Shadow__X:

right before that it says no useable aduio output driver found

[05:30:44]

[R]:

heres an idea

[05:30:52]

[R]:

instead of telling me 1 line at a time...

[05:30:56]

[R]:

you just pastebin the whole log

[05:31:02]

[R]:

i know... crazy idea

[05:31:02]

Shadow__X:

yeah sorry i will paste bin it now

[05:31:14]

Shadow__X:

i realized that right after i typed the secound line

[05:34:13]

Shadow__X:

http://pastebin.com/LaKQnL7c

[05:35:09]

[R]:

lemme see...

[05:35:34]

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[05:36:15]

[R]:

btw, how did you manage that?

[05:36:51]

Shadow__X:

i have no idea honestly. this used to run .23-fixes and i just upgraded it to .24-fixes

[05:38:05]

[R]:

try

[05:38:12]

[R]:

mythfrontend -O AudioOutputDevice=ALSA:deafult

[05:38:14]

[R]:

default*

[05:39:43]

Shadow__X:

yup that worked

[05:39:53]

[R]:

now goto the settings and fix it

[05:39:58]

[R]:

thats jsut a temporary override

[05:40:38]

Shadow__X:

yup did that. That was really weird

[05:43:21]

Shadow__X:

i wonder how that managed to happen

[05:46:59]

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[05:52:10]

wagnerrp:

Beirdo: that does seem to work nice

[05:52:41]

wagnerrp:

just wait until we get some more complex situations, and hilarity ensues

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[06:02:21]

Beirdo:

hehe. we shall see

[06:02:40]

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[06:22:29]

Beirdo:

hmmm, I think an AVR Butterfly could be useful

[06:22:43]

[R]:

sounds dirty...

[06:23:55]

wagnerrp:

5-way for local control, and serial to connect to the a computer?

[06:24:06]

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[06:24:22]

Beirdo:

aye.

[06:24:31]

Beirdo:

$20 little board... with LCD

[06:26:47]

Beirdo:

they have the XPlain which does USB too

[06:26:50]

[R]:

wagnerrp: also... dirty

[06:26:57]

Beirdo:

for $30

[06:27:14]

Beirdo:

[R]: you need to get yer mind outta the gutter

[06:27:19]

[R]:

lol

[06:27:20]

wagnerrp:

[R]: youll be amused to know that board has a project called 'buttload'

[06:27:28]

[R]:

haha

[06:29:14]

[R]:

wagnerrp: did i tell you i finally finish my IR project?

[06:29:37]

Beirdo:

hmmm, I wonder if I did my one-wire code in AVR or PIC?

[06:29:38]

[R]:

i took a TI MSP430 and plugged an ir receiver into it, and tied it to the power siwtch on my computer and it gets power from standby usb, and it turns on my compjuter when it detects the power button from my remote

[06:29:42]

Beirdo:

I think it was PIC.

[06:30:15]

wagnerrp:

i need to get my mceusbs doing that again

[06:30:31]

wagnerrp:

heck... i need to get my frontend working

[06:30:36]

wagnerrp:

its crashing at some point on boot

[06:31:16]

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[06:33:02]

[R]:

i have another MSP430

[06:33:04]

[R]:

i dunno what to do with it

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justinh:

woohoo looks like a certain thread can be called buried now

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justinh:

boo. seesmic for linux needs that adobe air junk

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justinh:

heh. exported DISPLAY, ran VLC from a terminal... QPainter::begin: Paint device returned engine == 0, type: 1. VLC uses Qt? I did not know that

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deaman:

Qt everywhere. :)

[12:12:30]

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[12:12:48]

Hoxzer:

deaman: what do think about qt's future now that Nokia is moving to WP? Afaik wp does not and will not support qt

[12:13:33]

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[12:15:29]

deaman:

Nokia has said that they are not developing Qt for WP7. But personally I am hoping for a community port, like the work being done already for android and iOS.

[12:16:29]

deaman:

http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/03/11/new-proof . . . se-platform/ and http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/02/28/necessitas/

[12:18:08]

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[12:18:10]

deaman:

overall I think Qt's such a good little bit of technology that it has a good future. As long as myth keeps using it how can it fail ;)

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[12:33:18]

wagnerrp:

qt has too many commercial users that still need to be supported

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deaman:

wagnerrp: did you get the press release on Monday? http://blog.qt.nokia.com/2011/03/07/nokia-and . . . ng-together/

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wagnerrp:

hehehe... emacs irc client

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justinh:

is there anything emacs can't do? Apart from be user friendly, I mean :-P

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iamlindoro:

I heard if you hit Alt-Fn-Ctrl-U-F, it's the key combo for user friendly, and it just spawns nano.

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[18:03:34]

zombor:

hi, im trying to use the commercial removal, but it doesn't seem to be flagging the times properly? i get random cuts in the middle of a show

[18:04:00]

zombor:

anyone know if i need to be doing something special?

[18:05:21]

zombor:

im using this script from the wiki https://gist.github.com/866280

[18:09:18]

iamlindoro:

This is why we don't offer automatic commercial cutting by default

[18:09:44]

iamlindoro:

commercial skip is imperfect, you need to check the cuts before removing them

[18:10:21]

iamlindoro:

Some channels/countries will be better than others. In the US commercial skipping is more or less reasonably accurate on many channels-- in other locales it's practically useless

[18:11:38]

iamlindoro:

But regardless, you should *never* cut a file you haven't manually checked and adjusted the cutlist on-- which is why scripts like that are relegated to the wiki, as it's not something we want to suggest people actually do

[18:12:35]

zombor:

yeah, im in the us

[18:12:53]

zombor:

i'd have to use mythfrontend to adjust the cutlist?

[18:12:58]

zombor:

im just using myth as a backend for xbmc

[18:14:19]

wagnerrp:

if xbmc does not offer cutting compatible with mythtv's database, and does not offer cutting services of their own

[18:14:25]

wagnerrp:

then yes, you will have to use mythfrontend

[18:15:15]

zombor:

yeah, xbmc is pretty much read only, afaik

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[18:30:36]

zombor:

second question, how do i force remove something from the database? there's a couple recordings it wont delete becuase it can't find the file

[18:30:47]

zombor:

"2011-03–11 12:29:50.924 ERROR when trying to delete file: GetPlaybackURL/UNABLE/TO/FIND/LOCAL/FILE/ON/jeremybush-Aspire-R1600/1041_2011030 3232600.mpg. File doesn't exist. Database metadata will not be removed."

[18:31:08]

wagnerrp:

the official frontend will allow you to force the backend to delete a file, if xbmc cannot

[18:31:53]

zombor:

hrm, i thought i tried that as well, but they are still here, let me try again

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[18:32:09]

wagnerrp:

what version of mythtv are you running?

[18:32:34]

zombor:

MythTV Version : 26437

[18:32:51]

wagnerrp:

[26437]

[18:32:51]

MythLogBot:

SVN 26437: (branch fixes/0.23) https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/5f2c474b

[18:33:20]

zombor:

it's what's in ubuntu's package manager

[18:33:22]

wagnerrp:

[26438]

[18:33:22]

MythLogBot:

SVN 26438: (branch master) https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/6a3bf709

[18:33:31]

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[18:33:44]

wagnerrp:

yeah, im just trying to see if that is before or after some fix

[18:33:48]

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[18:34:07]

zombor:

yeah, it's gone under "previously recorded" in the official frontend

[18:34:13]

zombor:

but i still see it under mythweb

[18:34:31]

tgm4883:

in mythweb are you viewing deleted items too?

[18:34:47]

zombor:

ah, here we go, i have to do it under "watch recordings"

[18:34:53]

zombor:

seems i was doing it in the wrong place

[18:36:23]

wagnerrp:

wait, 26438 is still 0.23?

[18:36:29]

wagnerrp:

437

[18:36:42]

wagnerrp:

yeah, nevermind then

[18:36:50]

wagnerrp:

what i was thinking of will only work on 0.24

[18:46:14]

sphery:

zombor: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Q . . . t_on_disk.3F

[18:47:34]

wagnerrp:

an Atom server board? who would manufacture such an abomination?

[18:48:12]

Beirdo:

it's still better than a PII-400MHz

[18:48:54]

wagnerrp:

it still cant beat my 5.5yr old opteron

[18:49:34]

Beirdo:

quite possible

[18:50:13]

wagnerrp:

meh, take the extra $20/yr hit on your power bill, and pick up a cheap dual core athlon

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[19:10:53]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, it's power efficient! It must make a great server! And then I can virtualize on it and run all 10 of my database servers on one atom server! Talk about savings!

[19:11:26]

wagnerrp:

why not just run 10 database server on the system, without virtualization?

[19:13:04]

zombor:

someone made an atom cluster that was very power efficient and did a reasonably fast job

[19:13:06]

wagnerrp:

even better, why not just run one database server, housing 10 databases?

[19:13:15]

wagnerrp:

zombor: no they didnt

[19:13:26]

zombor:

oh no? ;)

[19:13:29]

wagnerrp:

no

[19:13:40]

zombor:

im sure i read a story on it

[19:13:50]

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[19:14:24]

wagnerrp:

you can make an Atom grid computer that is reasonably fast, and competitive in power consumption and cost with more mainstream solutions

[19:14:29]

wagnerrp:

you cannot make a 'cluster'

[19:14:47]

zombor:

i mean it was a computer with something like 128 or 256 atom cpus

[19:15:04]

wagnerrp:

the difference between a grid and a cluster is that the former runs on largely independent tasks, with little need for communication

[19:15:11]

zombor:

i know the difference

[19:15:17]

wagnerrp:

while a cluster runs on one single task, which needs heavy communication

[19:15:27]

kormoc:

zombor, yes. we went over it at the time. it was cheaper, more powerful, and less power hungry to buy normal servers then that atom cluster

[19:15:32]

zombor:

i shouldn't have used the word cluster

[19:15:32]

wagnerrp:

heavy communication necessitates high speed, low latency interconnects

[19:15:34]

kormoc:

zombor, and used less rack space

[19:15:48]

wagnerrp:

such interconnects cost more than the atom systems themselves

[19:16:09]

wagnerrp:

when your network equipment costs 3x what your compute nodes do, youre doing it wrong

[19:16:23]

zombor:

im not saying if it's a good idea, i just said someone made it

[19:17:01]

wagnerrp:

well the same situation exists here

[19:17:09]

kormoc:

<zombor> someone made an atom cluster that was very power efficient and did a reasonably fast job

[19:17:09]

highzeth:

wagnerrp: http://www.ovh.com/fr/produits/offres_rps.xml I use one of those Atoms for Bind & OpenVPN duties. Fairly cheap & very solid company/routing. I wouldnt use an Atom for more intense duties tho.

[19:17:25]

wagnerrp:

someone sells Atom servers, someone on the mailing list uses them

[19:17:26]

kormoc:

zombor, I'm disputing the 'very power efficient' and 'reasonably fast' claims

[19:17:29]

wagnerrp:

but its not a particularly good idea

[19:17:41]

zombor:

depends what kind of job you are doing with it

[19:17:51]

kormoc:

highzeth, the atom cluster was for HPC applications

[19:18:09]

wagnerrp:

zombor: no, it really doesnt

[19:18:43]

zombor:

of course it does, you can't say atoms dont take less power than something like a "real" server proc

[19:18:54]

wagnerrp:

highzeth: honestly, if you are using an Atom for dns, routing, and openvpn duties, because of its low power consumption

[19:19:03]

highzeth:

kormoc: that might be, just saying an Atom can be ok for certain tasks

[19:19:04]

wagnerrp:

you would be better off with an ARM, with an SSL offload processor

[19:19:09]

kormoc:

zombor, I can say that for a given task, the atom uses more power to complete it due to the run time length of the task taking longer on the atom

[19:19:26]

zombor:

depends on the task

[19:19:31]

kormoc:

zombor, no it doesn't

[19:19:38]

highzeth:

wagnerrp: power consumption never crossed my mind, I just wanted a decent dedicated from a solid provider

[19:19:40]

kormoc:

zombor, if a task takes 100,000 cpu cycles to run

[19:19:53]

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[19:19:55]

kormoc:

zombor, it takes 100,000 cycles... that's all there is to it

[19:20:03]

zombor:

if it were only that simple

[19:20:12]

kormoc:

zombor, good thing it is

[19:20:33]

zombor:

cycles do different amounts of work on different processors, and uses different power on different processors

[19:20:37]

wagnerrp:

zombor: compare your 10W TDP Atom vs. a 45W TDP low power server

[19:20:51]

wagnerrp:

the Atom is going to be dual core, 1.8GHz

[19:21:00]

kormoc:

zombor, you're missing the point that it's pretty much the same cpu architecture... there's really no difference other then raw power

[19:21:01]

wagnerrp:

the server will be quad core, 2.6 or 2.8Ghz

[19:21:29]

zombor:

all im saying is that it depends on the situation, it's not black and white

[19:21:38]

kormoc:

zombor, in this case, it is. it really really is

[19:21:42]

zombor:

use the right tool for the right job, im not saying an atom would be a good tool for most jobs

[19:21:47]

wagnerrp:

on raw speed, the server processor is going to run around 3x the throughput of the Atom

[19:21:58]

kormoc:

zombor, we're talking about the 256 cpu atom 'cluster' here

[19:22:03]

wagnerrp:

when you consider the Atom is in-order, the server will run 8–10x faster than the Atom

[19:22:09]

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[19:22:13]

zombor:

what if what you are doing doesn't need hardly any cpu?

[19:22:13]

kormoc:

zombor, I'm not disputing that a atom for a firewall isn't a good choice

[19:22:23]

zombor:

thats my point, it's not absoliute

[19:22:31]

wagnerrp:

the server will run full speed at 45W, finish the task, and drop to 15W

[19:22:32]

kormoc:

zombor, then why the hell would you buy a 256 cpu node cluster if you don't want any cpu

[19:22:37]

zombor:

kormoc: sure, im not saying an arm might not be a better choise

[19:22:44]

wagnerrp:

the Atom will run much longer, and then stay at 10W

[19:22:55]

zombor:

you are all overstating what i said -_-

[19:23:09]

kormoc:

...

[19:23:14]

wagnerrp:

if time constraints are a factor, then you will need to purchase multiple Atoms to make up the difference

[19:23:34]

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[19:23:41]

wagnerrp:

if time constraints and processing power are not a factor, then youre better off with an ARM, or something else designed from the ground up for low power

[19:23:49]

sphery:

zombor may be starting to realize that many of us in this channel hate what Intel marketing has done to brainwash the masses about Atom

[19:23:54]

wagnerrp:

rather than an Atom where they took a stock pentium and started ripping crap out

[19:24:26]

zombor:

trust me, i would never use an atom for a server

[19:24:30]

sphery:

I completely agree that ARM is the way to go for low power

[19:24:31]

zombor:

the thought never crossed my mind

[19:24:47]

kisak_:

we have an atom-based server here

[19:24:50]

sphery:

(and low-compute)

[19:24:51]

wagnerrp:

zombor: theres a reason the industry has been using ARMs and MIPS for embedded systems, and no one but the nettop market has embraced the Atoms

[19:24:53]

zombor:

i saw the article about the atom 256 cpu thing and went "well thats kind of neat" and didnt thing about it past that

[19:25:11]

kisak_:

it's a WHS, so it doesn't do anything realtime anyway

[19:25:21]

sphery:

I saw it, then posted a, "Really?" here

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[19:25:27]

zombor:

yeah, my htpc is an atom, it does a great job

[19:25:30]

** sphery nods toward Seth and Amy **

[19:25:44]

wagnerrp:

its because windows only runs on x86, so if you want to run windows low power, you either get an atom, or you get a mobile processor

[19:25:48]

zombor:

i dont think you'd call it a "server" though

[19:25:48]

wagnerrp:

and the atom is much cheaper

[19:26:00]

sphery:

wagnerrp: until Windows 8 :)

[19:26:09]

sphery:

then the Atom can die the miserable death it deserves

[19:26:22]

zombor:

most of the work on my htpc is offloaded to the gpu anyway

[19:26:30]

sphery:

(when Windows is rumored to begin supporting ARM)

[19:27:50]

wagnerrp:

zombor: so then why bother with a high power processor like the Atom, when you can use an ARM that consumes 1/10th the power

[19:28:03]

zombor:

in my htpc?

[19:28:10]

wagnerrp:

if the GPU is doing all the work

[19:28:11]

zombor:

well, it *does* do normal cpu work

[19:28:24]

zombor:

when im watching video it offloads to the gpu, but not in other things

[19:28:34]

wagnerrp:

like what?

[19:28:49]

zombor:

zsnes?

[19:28:54]

kisak_:

heh

[19:29:01]

wagnerrp:

plenty of power in an ARM for that

[19:29:23]

kisak_:

there's plenty of power in a P2 for that

[19:29:55]

zombor:

the power savings in something like a single htpc wont really matter for that anyway

[19:30:01]

zombor:

it already takes very little power

[19:30:18]

kormoc:

so why get a gimped cpu then?

[19:30:27]

kormoc:

my mac mini with a real cpu uses less power then your atom does

[19:30:28]

wagnerrp:

well then whats the difference between an Atom powered system that runs 10–15W, and a real system at 25–30W

[19:30:41]

zombor:

size, heat?

[19:30:43]

wagnerrp:

youre talking maybe $15/yr in power costs

[19:30:53]

kormoc:

zombor, I'd wager my mini is smaller then your atom ;)

[19:30:58]

zombor:

it's not

[19:31:00]

kormoc:

and it's silent

[19:31:03]

zombor:

so is mine

[19:31:12]

kormoc:

which case?

[19:31:20]

zombor:

it's a acer nettop

[19:31:27]

zombor:

its about the same size as a mac mini

[19:31:31]

zombor:

except it didn't cost $700

[19:31:47]

wagnerrp:

but you have no power in reserve should you want it

[19:31:54]

wagnerrp:

say if VDPAU fails to decode something

[19:31:54]

kormoc:

I thought that was a half a inch wider and deeper

[19:32:02]

wagnerrp:

or if you want some extra power for commflagging

[19:32:06]

kormoc:

yeah, I do like watching HD flash videos

[19:32:07]

wagnerrp:

or you want to transcode something

[19:32:07]

zombor:

why would vdpau not decode something?

[19:32:11]

wagnerrp:

or you want to watch flash video

[19:32:12]

zombor:

everything i have is x264

[19:32:17]

wagnerrp:

zombor: because its a hardware decoder

[19:32:17]

zombor:

i offload transcoding

[19:32:21]

kormoc:

zombor, not flash videos for online streaming

[19:32:26]

zombor:

i dont care about flash

[19:32:27]

zombor:

fuck flash

[19:32:32]

kisak_:

the same acer model may be here, it's one that doesn't have a DVD drive, right?

[19:32:33]

wagnerrp:

and being a hardware ASIC, it is statically defined in what it can do

[19:32:38]

zombor:

i know that

[19:32:39]

wagnerrp:

please watch the language in this channel

[19:32:55]

wagnerrp:

so there are all sorts of h264 formats and encoding options it cannot handle

[19:33:01]

wagnerrp:

including some which are used for broadcast content

[19:33:07]

zombor:

well, ive never had a problem ;)

[19:33:13]

kormoc:

zombor, yet

[19:33:23]

zombor:

i very highly doubt i will encounter a problem

[19:33:25]

sphery:

vdpau will fail to decode something for the same reason that you have to constantly update software to play video

[19:33:37]

sphery:

big difference is you can't update vdpau without buying a new card

[19:33:43]

zombor:

i have to constantly update software to play video?

[19:33:49]

zombor:

O_o

[19:34:01]

wagnerrp:

zombor: if you didnt, they why would ffmpeg still exist

[19:34:06]

wagnerrp:

if they were done, they should just dispand

[19:34:07]

zombor:

im sorry, ive had my setup for ever a year, and have never updated anything

[19:34:08]

kormoc:

zombor, VDPAU won't do interlaced blueray movies. you have to use software for that

[19:34:11]

wagnerrp:

since theres no longer any work to be done

[19:34:23]

zombor:

i dont play interlaced blueray, my htpc doesn't even have an optical drive

[19:34:32]

sphery:

hardware decode is just software decode permanently written in silicon

[19:34:33]

zombor:

i convert all my bluerays to h264

[19:34:38]

zombor:

i know how it works

[19:34:44]

wagnerrp:

all of your blurays are already in h264

[19:34:48]

** JEDIDIAH__ hasn't encountered an interlaced bluray yet. **

[19:34:49]

zombor:

i know that

[19:34:49]

wagnerrp:

(or vc1)

[19:34:54]

zombor:

trust me, im not an idiot

[19:34:56]

wagnerrp:

so why are you converting them?

[19:34:57]

kormoc:

JEDIDIAH__, -users reported a few of them

[19:35:04]

zombor:

because i dont want them to be giagntic?

[19:35:13]

wagnerrp:

hard drive space is cheap

[19:35:21]

zombor:

whats with all the conflict?

[19:35:43]

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[19:35:46]

zombor:

i'd still prefer to have a 15G file compared to a 70+G file

[19:35:51]

zombor:

and it looks pretty much the sam

[19:35:52]

zombor:

e

[19:35:56]

JEDIDIAH__:

I would say the main reason to dump ION is flash. the rest of the usual cited reasons are a bit overblown.

[19:36:06]

zombor:

flash is irrelevant

[19:36:06]

highzeth:

zombor: what? you didn't come here for an argument?(ref python)

[19:36:15]

wagnerrp:

because we dont like users limiting themselves to underpowered processors and hardware decoding

[19:36:16]

zombor:

highzeth: i never talked about python

[19:36:24]

JEDIDIAH__:

flash irrelevancy is very much a YMMV kind of thing.

[19:36:29]

wagnerrp:

and then complain to us when they find out its not sufficiently capable for their needs

[19:36:31]

highzeth:

monty python..

[19:36:44]

zombor:

wagnerrp: im not limiting myself at all, if i want a higher powered system, id flip my receiver to my 6 core 3.5GHz mchine

[19:36:52]

zombor:

and do whatever i wanted to

[19:36:56]

kormoc:

JEDIDIAH__, having a few atoms, I have to say, I really don't like the user experience they provide

[19:36:57]

sphery:

zombor: I think the point that we're trying to make is that Atom is nothing more than a hobbled CPU whose only benefit is that it can't ever draw more than X watts (but that will always draw almost exactly X watts)... With Atom idle and 100% load are basically the same, and there's absolutely no headroom for real processing, when useful.

[19:37:01]

zombor:

ive never complained my htpc is underpowered

[19:37:10]

zombor:

you are complaining that my htpc is underpowered

[19:37:16]

zombor:

without taking into account my needs/wants

[19:37:22]

kormoc:

zombor, so why do you care what we think?

[19:37:33]

zombor:

i dont care

[19:37:39]

kormoc:

zombor, so why are you getting upset?

[19:37:43]

zombor:

i am not upset ;)

[19:37:43]

JEDIDIAH__:

I bought my first atom after my first Mac flaked out.

[19:37:44]

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[19:38:02]

kormoc:

zombor, you certainly seem to be

[19:38:02]

zombor:

you are claiming X, im saying it doesn't matter for my htpc

[19:38:09]

zombor:

and you keep insiting i am wrong

[19:38:09]

JEDIDIAH__:

...make that "last mac"

[19:38:09]

kormoc:

zombor, so you should ignore us then

[19:38:31]

zombor:

i enjoy some healthy discussion ;)

[19:38:34]

kormoc:

[19:38:35]

JEDIDIAH__:

ION is not an expensive sort of experiment.

[19:38:46]

kisak_:

wow, so that entire dialog was a bunch of belly aching

[19:38:50]

zombor:

but the claim that my htpc is useless is just wrong

[19:38:59]

sphery:

kormoc: http://xkcd.com/386/

[19:39:04]

zombor:

it's cost effective, and does exactly what i want

[19:39:05]

wagnerrp:

were not saying its useless, were saying its highly limited

[19:39:10]

wagnerrp:

limited to the capability of VDPAU

[19:39:16]

zombor:

i completely agree it's limited

[19:39:28]

** sphery wonders when Beirdo is going to put an xkcd database in the bot **

[19:39:30]

zombor:

it does a very specific job

[19:39:33]

kisak_:

wagnerrp: it's not like a mac mini has any higher limits

[19:39:34]

zombor:

the job i want it to do

[19:39:41]

kormoc:

zombor, that's fine. We still don't have to agree

[19:39:48]

zombor:

i think we do agree

[19:39:52]

kormoc:

zombor, no, I don't

[19:39:54]

wagnerrp:

and having a number of people who were here for XvMC and VIA systems, and got burned by hardware decoding

[19:40:06]

wagnerrp:

most of the other people want enough CPU power in reserve to meet their needs

[19:40:09]

kormoc:

zombor, Personally, I wouldn't use myth on a atom at all. Period.

[19:40:10]

zombor:

we agree my system is generally underpowered

[19:40:13]

wagnerrp:

even if using hardware decoding otherwise

[19:40:26]

zombor:

but my system works for my needs

[19:40:42]

zombor:

it's impossible for you to not agree that it meets my needs, those needs might not be your needs, however

[19:40:44]

sphery:

FWIW, the devs who are doing the video playback code for MythTV have nearly sworn off ION

[19:40:49]

kormoc:

zombor, and I think you artificially limited your needs to fit your hardware.

[19:40:54]

zombor:

negative

[19:41:04]

wagnerrp:

kisak_: the 2.5GHz Core2Duos in mac minis are easily 3x more powerful than the 1.6GHz dual core Atoms in ION systems

[19:41:11]

sphery:

saying it's too close to unusable, so you have to always make concessions and if /anything/ isn't perfect, it will have playback problems

[19:41:16]

kormoc:

zombor, online video streaming is the future. you're instance that it's not something you're going to be interested in is short sighted

[19:41:24]

zombor:

like i said, if i wanted high power, i'd hit the button on my reciever that switches to my 6-core

[19:41:27]

wagnerrp:

kisak_: and the actually consume less power to boot

[19:41:30]

JEDIDIAH__:

only 3x more powerful than an ION. That's not really as impressive as it might sound.

[19:41:46]

zombor:

kormoc: my system plays online streaming fine

[19:41:55]

kormoc:

zombor, no, it doesn't

[19:41:58]

zombor:

i do it all the time

[19:42:00]

sphery:

funny how "easily" becomes "only"

[19:42:13]

zombor:

it's lovely how people tell me that i havent done something when i have

[19:42:22]

kormoc:

zombor, cause I have the same hardware and it doesn't

[19:42:27]

kormoc:

zombor, it works with SD, but not HD

[19:42:32]

zombor:

ive done hd

[19:42:46]

JEDIDIAH__:

I play BD rips with mine.

[19:42:48]

kormoc:

yeah, okay, I'm just delusional

[19:42:52]

sphery:

not online streaming HD-resolution Flash

[19:42:53]

kormoc:

JEDIDIAH__, via flash?

[19:42:54]

zombor:

it's not a common use case for me though

[19:42:59]

zombor:

im not talking about flash

[19:43:07]

kormoc:

zombor, jesus h christ... I *AM*

[19:43:08]

zombor:

flash is not the only streaming format

[19:43:10]

kormoc:

...

[19:43:17]

JEDIDIAH__:

Wether or not flash is HW accelerated at this point is up to the web master.

[19:43:28]

zombor:

hw flash is near

[19:43:34]

kormoc:

JEDIDIAH__, and all the popular streaming services don't yet

[19:43:43]

kisak_:

flash is in a bad place these days

[19:43:49]

kormoc:

zombor, it's here, been so for 6 months, if they want to re-encode everything

[19:43:51]

JEDIDIAH__:

...those would be the "popular streaming services" that embedd commercials.

[19:43:53]

zombor:

the boxee plugin for xbmc doesnt use flash

[19:43:55]

** sphery wonders why the Atom users who believe that Flash is useless aren't Apple Mac Mini users **

[19:44:03]

sphery:

after all, Apple is leading the charge against Flash

[19:44:12]

kormoc:

ugh

[19:44:15]

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[19:44:18]

kormoc:

this is a pointless discussion

[19:44:25]

zombor:

right, because we have DIFFERENT needs

[19:44:28]

zombor:

who would have thought?!?!?

[19:44:48]

zombor:

for the cost i paid, this machine is PERFECT for me

[19:44:53]

zombor:

your machine is PERFECT for you!

[19:44:55]

zombor:

who cares?

[19:44:57]

kormoc:

zombor, no. it's your instance that when I say 'you can't do flash HD streaming on that platform' you go 'Yes I can, but not via flash!'

[19:45:04]

JEDIDIAH__:

Flash on a web terminal is about more than just video.

[19:45:11]

sphery:

zombor: the point is that other chips can give lower power usage and better performance /without/ the limitations of Atom

[19:45:19]

zombor:

you said "streaming" not "flash streaming"

[19:45:21]

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[19:45:31]

sphery:

so Atom is just plain marketing with no benefits to users

[19:45:38]

kormoc:

zombor, ugh... you're just trolling aren't you?

[19:45:42]

zombor:

no, im not

[19:45:48]

kormoc:

I really have a hard time believing that

[19:46:02]

sphery:

kormoc: I think it's more rationalizing than trolling :)

[19:46:10]

zombor:

sphery: and a low power ARM will do all this?

[19:46:30]

sphery:

after all, admitting Atom isn't perfect would be a matter of saying that I might not have bought the best system ever

[19:46:43]

zombor:

i know atom isn't perfect

[19:46:46]

sphery:

zombor: Core 2 Duo Mobile, Intel Core i3 or i5

[19:46:48]

zombor:

no computer system is perfect

[19:47:05]

sphery:

ARM gives lower power usage, but not better performance

[19:47:24]

kisak_:

I don't know about that's the C64 seems just about perfect back in the day

[19:47:27]

sphery:

Core 2 Duo Mobile and Intel Core i3/i5 Mobile can give lower power /and/ better performance

[19:47:37]

sphery:

and, likely, Turion and ...

[19:47:58]

zombor:

link me to a complete system for the $200 i bought my system for

[19:48:04]

sphery:

Sandy Bridge sounds good on paper, until you realize that you're stuck with a useless video card

[19:48:39]

zombor:

one thats in the same form factor mine is

[19:48:48]

wagnerrp:

sphery: the sandy bridge graphics chips are plenty powerful for mythtv's opengl needs

[19:48:59]

sphery:

useless because of lack of drivers, though

[19:48:59]

wagnerrp:

they just dont have reliable drivers to use with VAAPI

[19:49:04]

sphery:

or support for the broken VA-API

[19:49:30]

wagnerrp:

but if you just intend to use software decoding, they should work fine

[19:49:51]

kisak_:

so the problem with the Atom is that it's not properly scalable to the amount of power you ideally want out of it?

[19:50:04]

zombor:

it's powerful enough for my needs -_-

[19:50:19]

kisak_:

I'm not picking on you zombor

[19:50:23]

JEDIDIAH__:

Atom is a slow CPU. Without a good GPU it's pretty painful to use.

[19:50:31]

sphery:

zombor: and that's why some people still run Pentium II/400MHz systems (yes, one of whom is in this channel)

[19:50:34]

wagnerrp:

kisak_: were saying the problem is that the atom cannot be used for HD video

[19:50:36]

sphery:

because it works for them

[19:50:43]

sphery:

but it's /not/ a good choice for a system :)

[19:50:45]

zombor:

again, i'd like to see a nettop system that costs $200 that uses one of these processors

[19:50:46]

wagnerrp:

you have to rely on hardware accelerated decoding

[19:50:58]

sphery:

zombor: cheap is cheap

[19:51:02]

wagnerrp:

and were following that up with saying that hardware accelerated decoding should not be relied on 100%

[19:51:13]

zombor:

if i wanted to spend money, i would just get a mac mini

[19:51:14]

zombor:

but i dont

[19:51:18]

sphery:

zombor: if you're willing to make the concessions required to use an Atom-based cheap system, then it's fine

[19:51:23]

sphery:

just not a good general solution

[19:51:31]

zombor:

sphery: i said many times i was fine with those concessions

[19:51:42]

zombor:

then i was basically told that i was an idiot for making those concessions

[19:51:49]

kisak_:

wagnerrp: so a 1.6 GHz ARM or single core of a core2 at 1.6GHz can decode HD video?

[19:51:56]

zombor:

i dont expect the world out of a $200 computer

[19:52:16]

sphery:

zombor: that said, I do the non-mobile AMD-based variants (using dual-core Athlon II processors) and haven't spent > $200 on a system for maybe 5 years

[19:52:16]

zombor:

this isn't a general computer

[19:52:23]

wagnerrp:

kisak_: no, a 1.2Ghz ARM would do about as much work as that 1.6GHz Atom, and youre still stuck with hardware decoding

[19:52:35]

wagnerrp:

kisak_: the difference is that ARM is designed from the ground up for low power consumption

[19:52:51]

wagnerrp:

and will run at under 1W, compared to the 6–8W of the Atom

[19:53:13]

wagnerrp:

if youre going to do a low power system with hardware decoding, it should be done right

[19:53:15]

sphery:

6–8W for Atom processor and 13W+ for the rest of the system

[19:53:25]

zombor:

sphery: i dont think the form factor is the same for those (i could be wrong)

[19:53:26]

wagnerrp:

and the only reason for the Atom is because windows requires x86 processors

[19:53:31]

sphery:

where "system" means mobo, chipset, RAM

[19:53:34]

wagnerrp:

and cannot run on ARMs

[19:53:52]

sphery:

ARM systems will also be significantly lower power usage than Atom systems

[19:54:19]

zombor:

once you are down that low, i dont think it matters much

[19:54:26]

zombor:

especially for a htpc type system

[19:54:40]

kisak_:

wagnerrp: thus going back to what I said a moment ago, the Atom doesn't scale high enough to do HD video, why are we even talking about windows when we're taking about VDPAU and the world of linux in general

[19:54:43]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I'd say the only reason for the Atom is so that Intel could sell a cheap-to-make processor at a high markup by using an extremely effective marketing campaign to make people thing it's a good thing

[19:54:57]

sphery:

which is exactly why AMD has always said that there's no reason for Atom to exist

[19:55:36]

wagnerrp:

kisak_: i bring up windows because windows requires x86 processors... if windows ran on ARMs, all these companies would just be running ARMs paired with nvidia processors

[19:55:49]

wagnerrp:

the limitations of windows are what gave rise to the Atom

[19:56:21]

kisak_:

the origin doesn't affect us, it's here and in the market

[19:56:52]

wagnerrp:

sphery: if that was their only goal, they would have revamped their Xscale line

[19:57:32]

wagnerrp:

kisak_: the argument is that the the whole lot of them are not powerful enough to recommend for use with mythtv

[19:58:06]

wagnerrp:

the rant is that the Atom shouldnt exist in the first place, and that that whole market should be based off a more efficient processor

[19:58:57]

zombor:

i'd be more than willing to buy a more powerful system if it was in the same form factor, is as cheap, etc as my atom system

[19:59:07]

wagnerrp:

what about twice as thick?

[19:59:28]

zombor:

i said same form factory

[19:59:31]

zombor:

factor*

[19:59:39]

JEDIDIAH__:

thick is not such a big deal. Deep can be a problem though.

[19:59:41]

esperegu:

is there anything special you need to do to use dvb-S2 on mythtv?

[19:59:56]

wagnerrp:

well you will only get that same form factor on a specially built system

[20:00:01]

zombor:

i know

[20:00:11]

wagnerrp:

anything you build yourself will be limited by the thickness of the IO panel

[20:00:38]

zombor:

well, a standard io panel is as thick as a nettop

[20:00:41]

zombor:

approx

[20:00:44]

wagnerrp:

and as such, specially built systems are going to have a heavy markup

[20:00:49]

zombor:

$200

[20:00:57]

zombor:

not that much

[20:01:15]

zombor:

prices have gone up since then though

[20:01:35]

JEDIDIAH__:

IONs aren't that cheap anymore. spec creep and rising prices to match.

[20:01:52]

zombor:

right, you cant find a $200 nettop anymore

[20:01:53]

JEDIDIAH__:

$300 is more typical.

[20:02:11]

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[20:02:16]

zombor:

too bad

[20:02:56]

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[20:03:00]

wagnerrp:

for $300, you can get a mini-itx board with nvidia graphics, an amd processor with plenty of power for software decoding of any content you want, 2GB of memory, and an m-350 case

[20:03:45]

zombor:

i dont know what case that is

[20:03:54]

sphery:

wagnerrp: you really need to set up a business selling systems to the mythtv crowd

[20:04:18]

wagnerrp:

http://www.mini-box.com/M350-universal-mini-itx-enclosure

[20:05:20]

iamlindoro:

sphery: no, because the mythtv crowd is too stupid to buy hardware that doesn't have their random buzzword-- even at a competitive price and with greater functionality

[20:05:23]

wagnerrp:

sphery: seems nvidia motherboards are rapidly becoming a thing of the past

[20:05:24]

sphery:

ooh, available in Silver, too

[20:05:40]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah, they've officially left the chipset business

[20:05:46]

wagnerrp:

theyve not gotten a revamp in two years now

[20:05:53]

wagnerrp:

theyre all stuck with more expensive DDR2

[20:06:09]

sphery:

little patent spat with Intel and they decided it wasn't worth it, anymore

[20:06:09]

iamlindoro:

sphery: Because they'll turn up on the list, and ask what the best FE is, and all the sheep will jump in about how it's a VIA^H^H^H^H ION and anyone who suggests otherwise is a big jerkface

[20:06:23]

sphery:

iamlindoro: true...

[20:06:42]

kormoc:

/nick BigJerkFace

[20:06:49]

sphery:

and besides, on list there's little understanding of the difference between inexpensive and cheap

[20:07:04]

sphery:

and cheap is usually more inexpensive than inexpensive

[20:09:43]

zombor:

iamlindoro: im hardly too stupid ;)

[20:12:08]

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[20:21:58]

esperegu:

is it possible to see how mythbackend was compiled?

[20:22:20]

esperegu:

with which configure options

[20:22:20]

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[20:22:27]

wagnerrp:

'mythbackend --version' will show a handful of configure options

[20:23:22]

sphery:

esperegu: and if you're compiling yourself, config.log shows the last-used configure command

[20:23:24]

esperegu:

wagnerrp: any think special to get it to support dvb-S2 ?

[20:23:42]

wagnerrp:

shouldnt be anything special needed, no

[20:23:43]

sphery:

esperegu: and ./configure --previous will reconfigure with it

[20:23:59]

wagnerrp:

sphery: really....

[20:24:01]

esperegu:

sphery: I have pacuage now

[20:24:13]

wagnerrp:

so all this time i tail my config.log to get the line, its been completely unnecessary?

[20:24:34]

wagnerrp:

five years and ive been doing it wrong the whole time?

[20:24:44]

esperegu:

hehe

[20:24:50]

esperegu:

wagnerrp: at least it worked ....

[20:24:57]

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[20:44:42]

wagnerrp:

kormoc: user needing kicking from the mailing list

[20:44:54]

wagnerrp:

travis (moralindignation@gmail.com )

[20:45:59]

sphery:

wagnerrp: heh, yeah, not a widely-advertised option

[20:48:15]

wagnerrp:

or anyone else with ML rights who happens to be around ^^^

[20:49:35]

wagnerrp:

sphery: ive never really understood the concept of protected/private class members, when there are methods to read/write directly to those members

[20:50:25]

wagnerrp:

is it just so that should you decide to at some later point, you could have other actions happen when you set it?

[20:50:39]

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[20:51:49]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah, and nothing says that the method /has/ to actually write it--it can refuse to write data (such as invalid data), whereas direct field access wouldn't prevent storing invalid data into the field

[20:51:56]

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[20:52:32]

sphery:

i.e. touching the field directly is the equivalent of users editing DB data directly and using the function is the equivalent of their using the mythfrontend GUI

[20:53:19]

wagnerrp:

im going to try to have something working for this jobqueue stuff this weekend

[20:53:24]

sphery:

cool

[20:53:35]

wagnerrp:

and im just writing up a jobqueue analog to the ProgramInfo

[20:53:45]

wagnerrp:

some packet to send back and forth between frontend/backend/jobqueue

[20:53:53]

wagnerrp:

so only the master backend has direct db access

[20:54:14]

sphery:

nice

[20:54:19]

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[20:55:12]

wagnerrp:

just something basic for now

[20:55:31]

wagnerrp:

functionally identical, but with a scheduler

[20:57:02]

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[20:59:46]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, unsubscribed

[20:59:52]

wagnerrp:

thanks

[21:00:25]

wagnerrp:

i didnt find the drugs his friend told him about interesting

[21:00:32]

wagnerrp:

my life remains unchanged

[21:02:10]

kormoc:

I like how one of the addresses he sent it to was a craigslist personal one. Tempted to look it up

[21:02:46]

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[21:03:45]

** sphery guesses that #9658 is a broken theme **

[21:04:41]

iamlindoro:

probably nit

[21:04:42]

iamlindoro:

not

[21:04:52]

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[21:05:02]

wagnerrp:

crap... kernel panic

[21:05:12]

iamlindoro:

it's probably that the PBB is still responding to requests to display the help window, but since the programdetails screen is already holding up the popup stack, that it's not getting displayed

[21:05:26]

iamlindoro:

so pressing F1 again has the effect of closing the Help popup that was never displayed

[21:05:40]

iamlindoro:

and pressing it the first time is creating it, but it's invisible

[21:05:52]

Beirdo:

heh

[21:06:02]

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[21:06:03]

sphery:

ah, didn't realize he was pressing it with the program details dialog displayed

[21:06:07]

iamlindoro:

yep

[21:06:17]

sphery:

yeah, I see the "press I" in there, now

[21:06:19]

iamlindoro:

That's step 3

[21:06:21]

iamlindoro:

yeah

[21:06:22]

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[21:06:24]

Beirdo:

profit.

[21:06:43]

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[21:06:57]

sphery:

but, yeah, the F1 "hangs" and F1 "resumes" says it's doing the icon help popup and he's not seeing it

[21:07:14]

sphery:

so I assumed a broken theme (but if it's only when details dialog is displayed, that's different)

[21:07:41]

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[21:12:54]

wagnerrp:

i assume any time we touch the header files, we have to update the library api?

[21:13:04]

iamlindoro:

only for public functions

[21:13:15]

iamlindoro:

but better safe than sorry sometimes

[21:14:27]

wagnerrp:

just wondering about the requirements with regards to future maintenance of the jobqueue

[21:14:49]

wagnerrp:

although i assume that wont come into play until when/if plugins start interfacing with the jobqueue

[21:15:27]

iamlindoro:

correct. The jobqueue headers aren't curently installed (little from libmythtv is, and we only installed the first bit of it in the past few months)

[21:15:50]

iamlindoro:

so you'd need to have those headers isntalled, and declare the functions public, and *then* a change to then would require a library API bump

[21:16:00]

iamlindoro:

well, declare them public then install, but you get the idea ;)

[21:18:01]

wagnerrp:

well that will still be a ways away before it will be useful for plugins

[21:26:01]

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[21:46:45]

wagnerrp:

gah!

[21:48:31]

** wagnerrp wonders when people are going to start reading 'attach as a file' **

[21:48:40]

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kormoc:

oh nice. http://shop.fark.com/product/DIAF

[21:58:48]

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wagnerrp:

kormoc: database question... im making this jobinfo class, and im going to have it be able to update an existing entry

[21:59:53]

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[22:00:00]

wagnerrp:

would it be any faster to have it figure out what fields have changed and just update those, rather than just update everything regardless?

[22:00:58]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, mysql actually is smart about that

[22:01:13]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, when it loads up the row, it'll only flush changes back to the disk (if it can)

[22:01:31]

wagnerrp:

i mean i figure any code i write up to figure out the changes, theyre going to have something just as optimized

[22:02:08]

kormoc:

You have to read the full row from disk to update it, so yeah, they're in the best position to decide what to actually write

[22:02:28]

kormoc:

the only savings with the figure it out on our side is wire bandwidth savings

[22:03:05]

wagnerrp:

i already do something in the bindings where i store a local copy and figure out only the changes i need to make

[22:03:25]

wagnerrp:

ill have to disable that and see if it really makes any difference, even considering the additional network load

[22:12:15]

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[22:41:51]

Roklobsta:

hi guys. i have a big problem with some saa7134 cards. would anyone like to help?

[22:51:47]

wagnerrp:

need a specific name

[22:53:25]

wagnerrp:

Roklobsta: ^^

[22:53:37]

Roklobsta:

hang on.

[22:53:43]

Roklobsta:

Asus Tiger 1.0 board

[22:53:59]

sid3windr:

asus tiger 1.0 blood

[22:54:14]

Roklobsta:

maybe charlie sheen sold them to me.

[22:54:18]

wagnerrp:

made with bits of real tiger, so you know its good

[22:54:41]

Roklobsta:

i ahve poked around the forums but other poeple seem to have the same sort of trouble

[22:54:53]

wagnerrp:

looks like its only analog, no digital?

[22:55:28]

Roklobsta:

the firmware loads to the saa7134 but mythtv can't scan any channels. for some reason the kernel keeps wanting to reload the firmware every time myth accesses the card

[22:55:34]

Roklobsta:

no it has DVB too

[22:55:55]

Roklobsta:

is analog and digital. i can set up DVB frontend 0 in mythbackend.

[22:55:55]

wagnerrp:

and you have a /dev/dvb/adapter0?

[22:56:44]

Roklobsta:

but when it goes to scan the channels the signal strength is 0 and signal to noise is 100%

[22:57:28]

Roklobsta:

Mar 12 09:12:29 mythtv kernel: [ 14.656652] saa7130/34: v4l2 driver version 0.2.16 loaded

[22:57:29]

Roklobsta:

Mar 12 09:12:29 mythtv kernel: [ 14.660600] saa7134 0000:00:09.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 17 (level, low) -> IRQ 17

[22:57:29]

Roklobsta:

Mar 12 09:12:29 mythtv kernel: [ 14.660608] saa7133[0]: found at 0000:00:09.0, rev: 209, irq: 17, latency: 32, mmio: 0xec000000

[22:57:29]

Roklobsta:

Mar 12 09:12:29 mythtv kernel: [ 14.660616] saa7133[0]: subsystem: 1043:4857, board: Asus Tiger Rev:1.00 [card=152,autodetected]

[22:57:43]

RyeBrye:

pkill -9 Roklobsta

[22:58:17]

Roklobsta:

ok sorry

[22:58:38]

Roklobsta:

i would have thought suchh an old make of card would work straight away.

[22:58:56]

Roklobsta:

unlike my afatech 9015s which need futzing to get working.

[22:59:50]

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[22:59:50]

Roklobsta:

i get DVB registered: DVB: registering new adapter (saa7133[0]) and DVB: registering adapter 0 frontend 0 (Philips TDA10046H DVB-T)...

[23:01:57]

Roklobsta:

anyone... anyone...

[23:03:32]

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wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: heres something you need for those long trips... http://www.etsy.com/listing/69286355

[23:10:20]

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[23:14:44]

** trumee updated to opensuse 11.4, mythtv-0.24 now does a lot of pulseaudio/alsa buffer underruns :( **

[23:14:59]

wagnerrp:

remove pulseaudio

[23:15:09]

trumee:

wagnerrp: already did that

[23:15:21]

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[23:15:21]

trumee:

wagnerrp: now i get Alsa buffer underruns

[23:15:51]

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[23:15:59]

trumee:

wagnerrp: i have installed packages from packman repo. would it help if i compile them on my own?

[23:16:20]

wagnerrp:

only if the packages from packman were compiled doing something bad

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