Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Sunday, February 13th, 2011, 00:00 UTC

[00:00:00]

sphery:

skd5aner: heh, the OP in that thread who wants to record with cablecard is Brighthouse, which is basically TWC with a different name

[00:00:16]

sphery:

(spun off from TWC so they could get approval for the AOL/Time Warner merger)

[00:00:16]

skd5aner:

I know I spend no where near the ammount of hundreds of other people on mythtv on a weekly basis, but geeze – I bet I could reclaim a lot of hours too a week

[00:00:36]

sphery:

yep

[00:00:38]

skd5aner:

s/near the amount of/near the amount of time that

[00:01:30]

sphery:

thus my reply--not long ago--in that thread that said MythTV is perfect for those looking for a hobby and a chance to learn (and a great DVR, but at a time and money cost greater than most other DVR solutions)

[00:01:38]

skd5aner:

lol – 1)I can pay the cable company for their whole-house DVR system, which

[00:01:38]

skd5aner:

will cost me an extra $62/month for five rooms with four tuners.

[00:02:23]

** skd5aner is always amazed at what people are willing to spend to cable and wireless providers **

[00:03:02]

skd5aner:

sphery: That's /exactly/ how I've always seen it – and even my wife knows it's one of my hobbies...

[00:03:26]

sphery:

which is likely why you're a happy user

[00:03:27]

sphery:

:)

[00:03:38]

sphery:

going into it with the right expectations makes all the difference

[00:05:10]

skd5aner:

sphery: it's also one of the things I can do to keep up to date in *nix... I started to learn FreeBSD and linux about 9 years ago, but for the most part I don't have time to just "use" it anymore – I'm actually a Windows guy – was an Active Directory engineer for several years, so myth allows me to keep my "hands dirty" in linux world

[00:06:10]

skd5aner:

well, that and like a parent I can see past the "ugly" parts ;)

[00:07:00]

skd5aner:

I wonder if the Windows MCE guys keep up with MythTV at all – just to see what the devs are focusing on here, etc

[00:08:17]

skd5aner:

dinner's ready – later!

[00:11:00]

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[00:12:12]

darkdrgn2k:

how much jucie do you need in a mythbackend to do ATSC capture?

[00:12:29]

darkdrgn2k:

(slave backend)

[00:12:44]

kormoc:

well, a power supply uses 120 volt ac...

[00:12:50]

darkdrgn2k:

LOL

[00:12:54]

darkdrgn2k:

i ment processor ram et

[00:12:54]

darkdrgn2k:

c

[00:13:01]

kormoc:

practically nothing

[00:13:26]

darkdrgn2k:

would a 500mhz geod processor do the trick?

[00:13:46]

kormoc:

likely

[00:13:59]

darkdrgn2k:

how bout a 250 mhz linksys router :-P

[00:14:05]

kormoc:

Sure

[00:14:09]

darkdrgn2k:

actualy that would be a PAIN to cross compile for arm.

[00:14:33]

kormoc:

all it needs to do is support the hardware and copy memory to the drive at a decent speed

[00:14:52]

darkdrgn2k:

i just really dont want to build a 3rd pc for the ATSC

[00:15:04]

kormoc:

so stick the card into an existing one?

[00:15:07]

darkdrgn2k:

seeing how we are STILL waiting for them to jack up the power on the antennas...

[00:15:12]

wagnerrp:

sphery: ive been rethinking this protocol rewrite, i think i want to make a more radical divergence from the existing protocol

[00:15:16]

darkdrgn2k:

im afraid of the cable being to long and loosing signal

[00:15:22]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, please

[00:15:30]

darkdrgn2k:

or is that a pointless worry

[00:15:31]

wagnerrp:

going to start up a discussion on the -dev list about it

[00:15:44]

kormoc:

darkdrgn2k, I'd be scared of dragons if I Was you. They're more likely to eat you

[00:15:54]

wagnerrp:

right now, everything ive been doing with it was rewriting the code while keeping backwards compatibility

[00:15:59]

wagnerrp:

i think thats just going to be too limiting

[00:16:16]

darkdrgn2k:

kormoc: so i shouldnt really wory about the signal loss of a longer cable?

[00:16:40]

kormoc:

just put a active amp on the top end and call it good

[00:17:01]

darkdrgn2k:

hmmm.. ok .. well ill try

[00:17:05]

darkdrgn2k:

problem still is the dam antennas

[00:17:24]

darkdrgn2k:

im less them 5 miles away from the antenna and can bearly get a signal

[00:17:44]

kormoc:

I'm less then 2 miles away and can't get signal from some places. There's too much concrete in the way

[00:18:01]

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[00:18:08]

darkdrgn2k:

kormoc: biggest problem is they are broadcasting at like 2kw only

[00:18:14]

wagnerrp:

im about 5 miles way from my transmitters, up on a hill down in a hole, and can nearly get by with bunny-ears

[00:19:19]

darkdrgn2k:

sorry abuut 15 kw

[00:19:39]

darkdrgn2k:

they are all slated for like 50–100 but only broadcasting at 15.. its sad

[00:19:52]

sphery:

darkdrgn2k: kormoc is exactly right--as long as you use a hardware encoder or digital capture, the backend needs almost no resources for recording. However, you need some real power for things like scheduling and mythfilldatabase--meaning your master backend needs to be on a real computer.

[00:20:12]

sphery:

darkdrgn2k: also, any commercial flagging and transcoding you do will require a reasonable system

[00:20:22]

sphery:

you wouldn't want to try that on a Cortex A7 or something

[00:21:13]

sphery:

once we split recording out from the master backend functionality, then mythrecorder (or whatever it's called) will take very few resources and would be usable on your woefully underpowered devices :)

[00:21:46]

darkdrgn2k:

sphery: good to know.. im concenred abuot my electricity bill now that i put a closetbox in place :-P

[00:21:51]

sphery:

wagnerrp: sounds like a plan! I'm not a big fan of maintaining backwards compatibility when we have an opportunity for real improvement

[00:21:54]

darkdrgn2k:

at least i got rid of the celeronD in there

[00:22:14]

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[00:22:22]

sphery:

wagnerrp: besides, then those external projects will really have to look at the changes before faking compatibility :)

[00:22:46]

wagnerrp:

sphery: one of the reasons for this would actually be to support backwards compatibility

[00:22:46]

darkdrgn2k:

sphery: i should point out that much of the "backwards compatbility" is kind of pointless since most "official" myth plugins wont work across changed database schemas bumps (or protocol bumps?)

[00:22:53]

sphery:

darkdrgn2k: celeron D is likely orders of magnitude better than a linksys router

[00:23:09]

darkdrgn2k:

sphery: yeh, but its power hungry

[00:23:14]

wagnerrp:

darkdrgn2k: backwards compatibility is pointless right now because clients have to access the database

[00:23:21]

sphery:

darkdrgn2k: ah, yeah, agreed on that one

[00:23:32]

sphery:

Pentium 4, in general, was a power hog

[00:23:43]

wagnerrp:

you cannot control queries to the database, so you cannot translate modern schema back to old results

[00:23:59]

sphery:

and, yeah, as long as clients aren't doing bad things in the DB, I don't mind if someone tries to maintain backwards compatibility

[00:24:31]

darkdrgn2k:

sphery: how long has the protocol been around,... its about time you redid it :-D

[00:24:38]

wagnerrp:

sphery: anyway, i want to take the modular handler concept further

[00:24:45]

sphery:

I need to get the direct db access removed from mythtv...

[00:24:51]

wagnerrp:

get rid of the version announce all together

[00:24:53]

sphery:

darkdrgn2k: heh, well, wagnerrp is the one redoing it :)

[00:24:59]

darkdrgn2k:

sphery: sorry

[00:25:09]

sphery:

I'm just egging him on

[00:25:12]

Jay2k1:

have you guys heard of IR remotes working without lirc?

[00:25:23]

wagnerrp:

make each individual chunk have its own version

[00:25:29]

darkdrgn2k:

Jay2k1: i just found out that the kernel has support for some IR

[00:25:38]

wagnerrp:

instead of speaking protocol version 65

[00:25:39]

darkdrgn2k:

Jay2k1: but its not really developed.. like arrows work and such

[00:25:44]

Jay2k1:

yeah

[00:25:55]

sphery:

Jay2k1: there's a keyboard emulation through devinput layer

[00:26:00]

Jay2k1:

when i start lirc, arrows are recognised twice

[00:26:01]

wagnerrp:

youll speak base command set 1, frontend command set 4, recorder command set 12, file transfer command set 6, etc...

[00:26:10]

Jay2k1:

when i stop lirc, not all buttons work

[00:26:17]

darkdrgn2k:

Jay2k1: took me like 3 days to figure it out

[00:26:17]

sphery:

Jay2k1: but you really want to use LIRC if you're using more than just the number keys and a few random others (like play/pause/stop)

[00:26:18]

darkdrgn2k:

Jay2k1: echo lirc > /sys/class/rc/rc0/protocols

[00:26:25]

darkdrgn2k:

add that to your rc.local

[00:26:31]

darkdrgn2k:

it will force lirc control

[00:26:38]

Jay2k1:

oh god you're my saviour

[00:26:40]

darkdrgn2k:

yeh

[00:26:49]

darkdrgn2k:

3 days ot thinking it was USBHID...

[00:26:56]

sphery:

wagnerrp: cool

[00:27:12]

Jay2k1:

i was reading through ps again and again and tried to find something IR related

[00:27:33]

darkdrgn2k:

Jay2k1: yeh its a pain.....

[00:27:54]

darkdrgn2k:

still trying to figure uot why my audio stops working randomly untill i reboot again.. dam kernel updates

[00:28:05]

wagnerrp:

sphery: then instead of registering a handler for the base command set, you register a handler base set 1, base set 2, base set 3

[00:29:27]

wagnerrp:

that way when a client connects, it will tell the server what version it wants to speak, and that command set can be loaded

[00:29:47]

wagnerrp:

and since the command sets have their own protocol version

[00:30:03]

wagnerrp:

you dont have a problem with version incompatibility between external plugins

[00:30:09]

wagnerrp:

that may not have control over the version

[00:30:44]

darkdrgn2k:

any one know of a free atsc tuner software for windows

[00:34:52]

darkdrgn2k:

hey, if yuor facing the wrong way (away from the antennas) is tehre anything you can do to improove signal gain

[00:35:24]

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[00:36:17]

sphery:

wagnerrp: what about when data formats change-for example the ProgramInfo change? Or when the data store changes (DB schema changes that modify, rename, change the tables/columns in the database)? Would we then have to maintain code that adds a translation layer? If so, I'm completely against the idea.

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[00:36:45]

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[00:36:52]

sphery:

I have a hard enough time keeping my code working with the current data formats/data store.

[00:37:39]

wagnerrp:

im not saying it has to be used for backwards compatibility, or even that it will be

[00:37:52]

wagnerrp:

but that it will leave the option open should we ever choose to go that route

[00:38:05]

wagnerrp:

its more so that external plugins can manage their own versioning

[00:38:24]

wagnerrp:

as right now, there is only the one master version

[00:38:34]

wagnerrp:

so if we start having backend plugins

[00:38:47]

wagnerrp:

those plugins would have no control over compatibility checks

[00:39:01]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: ever thought of allowing protocol "plugins" to allow plugins to expand the protocol for their own use

[00:39:06]

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[00:39:22]

** wagnerrp wonders what hes been working on for the past month **

[00:39:36]

darkdrgn2k:

sorry LOL

[00:39:41]

wagnerrp:

:)

[00:39:51]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: what can i say im always behind :-S

[00:39:53]

sphery:

wagnerrp: ah, yeah, that makes perfect sense

[00:40:14]

sphery:

so I support it--until someone mandates a translation/backwards-compatibility layer

[00:40:31]

sphery:

but I'll argue that one with whoever's trying to mandate that--not with you :)

[00:40:47]

wagnerrp:

that also means if someone wanted, they could load their own plugins that would provide such a compatibility layer

[00:40:53]

** sphery files away his objects for some future mandate, just in case **

[00:41:01]

wagnerrp:

or they could provide their own independent protocol for communication with some other device

[00:41:18]

sphery:

sounds like a good plan

[00:41:50]

sphery:

and once we abstract out data access with a nice data integration layer, I won't be so worried :)

[00:42:23]

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[00:43:09]

wagnerrp:

id also like to switch to json instead of the current stringlist->[]:[] that we currently use

[00:43:30]

sphery:

as long as it's fast, I'd support that

[00:43:33]

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[00:43:42]

sphery:

only downside is all the pundits will say, "Finally, MythTV is using a standard protocol."

[00:44:03]

sphery:

since they are clueless about the fact that protocol does not interpret data for you--nor define grammar, etc.

[00:44:13]

wagnerrp:

standard only in the manner that it would provide field names

[00:44:32]

wagnerrp:

so order wouldnt matter

[00:44:59]

sphery:

but, hey, then we can tell them, "Now that we use a standard protocol, I'm sure that many magical apps and devices will start communicating with MythTV."

[00:45:10]

sphery:

and then they can wait, and wait, and wait...

[00:45:33]

sphery:

any reason for json vs protobuf?

[00:45:44]

wagnerrp:

no external dependency needed

[00:45:57]

sphery:

you mean for external apps?

[00:46:05]

wagnerrp:

for anything

[00:46:16]

sphery:

Since if we use protobuf, we could just put the lib in our external libs area

[00:46:32]

sphery:

since it sounds like it would be good for the data integration layer

[00:46:47]

wagnerrp:

you would have to add a lib for python, and one for perl, and one for php, and one for anything else should we add more bindings, and...

[00:47:09]

wagnerrp:

thats my only complaint

[00:48:17]

sphery:

ahhh

[00:48:36]

sphery:

well, if you use json, I'd be tempted to do the same for the data access

[00:48:53]

wagnerrp:

you mean database->plugin?

[00:49:13]

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[00:50:08]

sphery:

heh

[00:50:10]

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[00:50:11]

sphery:

could be

[00:50:28]

wagnerrp:

not sure what you mean for data access

[00:51:24]

wylie:

what's the best way to correlate a mythtv recording filename with it's sql record on the show

[00:52:02]

sphery:

the one and only process that will hit the database

[00:52:20]

sphery:

so, yeah, database stuff

[00:52:35]

sphery:

I thought you were saying it would be just another backend plugin, but that provides database access

[00:53:04]

sphery:

I now see you meant communications between database and plugin (and, really, also mythfrontend and mythbackend and ...)

[00:53:05]

wylie:

my interest is so that a post-process script that will transcode (ffmpeg h264/mp4) it down and insert into cloud storage that provides secured delivery back to me

[00:53:13]

sphery:

so database -> anything

[00:53:37]

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[00:53:47]

wylie:

and i want the data from the record for the user-definable metadata i stuff with the record

[00:53:57]

wylie:

on the storage side

[00:54:15]

sphery:

uploading recordings to the 'net sounds an awful like like something we don't support

[00:54:46]

wylie:

its not to the "net" for. the file ends up getting encrypted and can only be accessed by the owner of the object

[00:55:11]

sphery:

so why waste all the bandwidth (and cost of bandwidth/storage) to push recordings up there?

[00:55:11]

wylie:

not s3, either

[00:55:41]

wagnerrp:

just serve from your home account those you actually want to watch

[00:55:42]

sphery:

are you seriously buying cloud provider for TV recordings storage redundancy?

[00:56:03]

sphery:

RAID seems like a much better/cheaper option

[00:56:47]

wylie:

kind of r&d proof-of-concept. my engineering team built the cloud storage project. it's really just for my own fun — there is no cost for me beyond my existing cable provider cost, really

[00:56:59]

sphery:

but if you're not doing anything bad, the python bindings are likely the best bet for accessing information about recordings

[00:57:29]

wylie:

yes, i assure this is not for anything bad or distribution of media. i work for a cdn. ;)

[00:57:32]

sphery:

I'm wondering what kind of bandwidth your Internet service is providing

[00:57:37]

sphery:

since video is huge

[00:57:54]

sphery:

even when you transcode it to low-resolution, low-quality garbage

[00:58:04]

wylie:

i get about 2M out. a standard 1 hour television show ends up at about 600M w/ x264/mp4

[00:58:23]

wylie:

it looks very good still on an iOS device

[00:58:26]

wagnerrp:

yeah, a 1hr recording at 600MB is pretty bad

[00:58:41]

sphery:

ah, 1hr at 600MB at 320x240 wouldn't be too bad

[00:58:44]

wagnerrp:

i was doing about double that

[00:58:53]

wagnerrp:

when cut down to 1080p24

[00:59:17]

wagnerrp:

and commercials removed, so 42 minutes

[00:59:31]

wagnerrp:

more like 1.5GB

[01:00:03]

wagnerrp:

so around 4.5mbps

[01:00:14]

wagnerrp:

it ended up being about 1/3rd the size of the original

[01:01:32]

sphery:

I could see the 600MB for 480x270 or 320x240 or something

[01:01:36]

wylie:

did you try that link in vlc? (it's just a trailer)

[01:01:49]

wagnerrp:

nope

[01:01:54]

wylie:

heh

[01:01:58]

wagnerrp:

dont have VLC installed

[01:02:06]

sphery:

yeah, don't have it set up

[01:02:19]

sphery:

it's probably ok... just not like an original HDTV recording :)

[01:02:28]

wylie:

no doubt — but looks fantastic on iPad

[01:02:36]

sphery:

I figure if I record it in high-bitrate HDTV, I'm going to watch it in high-bitrate HDTV

[01:02:41]

wylie:

even over 3G

[01:02:46]

sphery:

but I don't use any small devices, so ...

[01:03:00]

wagnerrp:

because the iPad is about a third the resolution of an HDTV

[01:03:07]

sphery:

yeah

[01:03:11]

wylie:

yup, and a quirky resolution at that

[01:03:17]

wylie:

(for hd content)

[01:03:24]

wagnerrp:

and limits you to L3.2 or 3.1

[01:03:27]

sphery:

wouldn't be too bad for that or iphone or whatever

[01:03:55]

wylie:

aye, to both points. ;)

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[01:18:42]

andreax:

Anyone have an idea why i cant download themes as user but as root? The log keep telling me /dev/sr0 No disc.

[01:19:40]

kormoc:

likely permissions on ~/.mythtv

[01:19:41]

sphery:

andreax: from the theme chooser?

[01:19:51]

sphery:

sounds like what kormoc said.

[01:19:53]

andreax:

Yeah...

[01:20:02]

andreax:

As root it works pretty fine...

[01:20:15]

andreax:

I check permission on ~/.mythtv...

[01:20:31]

kormoc:

and all the subfolders/files?

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[01:20:47]

sphery:

and the containing folders

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[01:21:01]

sphery:

i.e. you'll need r-x on every folder leading up to $HOME/.mythtv

[01:21:17]

kormoc:

sphery, actually, would mythbuntu's wrapper script break that?

[01:21:32]

sphery:

and note that $HOME/.mythtv is /as specified in the environment running mythtv programs/--not necessarily your user's home

[01:22:06]

sphery:

look in your log files for both the frontend and backend for a line: 2011-02–12 18:48:53.865 Using configuration directory = /home/mythtv/.mythtv

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[01:22:37]

sphery:

kormoc: could... depending on how they've set it all up and what users are running things

[01:28:42]

andreax:

sphery: Cant find that line in the frontend log. :(

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sphery:

andreax: ah, you must be running 0.23-fixes... I added the line after before 0.24.

[01:35:36]

kormoc:

There is no theme chooser in 0.23

[01:36:03]

andreax:

Ive done a git pull from master some minutes ago and compiled that.. :)

[01:36:34]

kormoc:

did you remove the old binaries/libs?

[01:37:10]

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[01:37:47]

andreax:

Yeah. And why i try it as root it works pretty fine. Even on my client only box it worked like charm. Only on the BE/FE it refuse to download...

[01:38:10]

andreax:

No matter which user is logged in, except root.

[01:39:41]

[R]:

wtf

[01:39:48]

[R]:

i saw distrotions when the camera was panning down

[01:39:53]

andreax:

Log wont tell me much, even not with -v all

[01:39:55]

sphery:

hmmm... yeah, theme chooser isn't in 0.23...

[01:41:17]

andreax:

That theme chooser is indeed a nice thing.. :)

[01:41:42]

sphery:

andreax: rm -rf $HOME/.mythtv/Cache-myth{front,back}end-* , then restart frontend/backend

[01:41:55]

sphery:

and make sure they're started as the user who will normally run eachb

[01:42:06]

sphery:

and make sure you get rid of those dirs from all .mythtv dirs

[01:42:20]

sphery:

since you don't know which config dir you're using

[01:43:07]

andreax:

Seems its always the user whos logged in...

[01:43:18]

andreax:

That made it... thanks alot! :)

[01:45:57]

andreax:

Yall done alot of pretty work the 4 months i couldnt follow pretty well.. :)

[01:46:15]

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tim_:

Hello. Trying to compile 0.24 on PC with AMD Athlon 3800. Compilation gives error stating "MMX disabled on x86, . . .". I'm pretty sure this processor supports MMX. Need some help figuring out a solution. Thanks.

[01:56:00]

wagnerrp:

MMX is not supported by x86_64

[01:56:31]

tim_:

Uh oh, Is that a show stopper for MythTV?

[01:56:32]

wagnerrp:

it was deprecated by newer SIMD call sets

[01:56:51]

wagnerrp:

no, because there are better things that can be and are used

[01:56:55]

wagnerrp:

MMX is like 15 years old

[01:57:36]

wagnerrp:

wow... this ryan patterson is rather pushy

[01:57:40]

[R]:

freakin hdpvr

[01:57:48]

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tim_:

The error I get also states that the check can be disabled. Is this the solution?

[01:58:02]

wagnerrp:

http://www.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-users/ . . . /310114.html

[01:59:33]

tim_:

?

[02:00:41]

wagnerrp:

are you running 32-bit or 64-bit?

[02:01:21]

sphery:

tim_: the problem is that you're using things like -cpu or -march or -tune or C*FLAGS and you shouldn't be

[02:01:35]

[R]:

that's what she said

[02:02:10]

sphery:

tim_: use ./configure --prefix=/usr/local --compile-type=release --enable-proc-opt --and there's almost never a good reason to use anything else

[02:02:21]

sphery:

tim_: and make sure you're not setting CFLAGS or similar

[02:02:21]

tim_:

32-bit Slackware. I'm trying to create/install from Slackbuilds . . . I don't know what options are being passed :(

[02:02:29]

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[02:02:53]

sphery:

heh, well, then you'll need to fix the slackbuild for them

[02:03:40]

tim_:

I think I'll try just building it manually and use the options you gave. Thanks.

[02:04:06]

sphery:

sorry I can't be more helpful--I know nothing of slackware

[02:05:06]

tim_:

No prob. I'm reaping what I've sown.

[02:06:43]

[R]:

sphery: what... are you sgt shultz?

[02:07:02]

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[02:07:23]

sphery:

seems so...

[02:07:38]

sphery:

Just learned something about Hogan's Heroes, too

[02:08:44]

[R]:

what?

[02:08:55]

[R]:

aside from the fact that its an awesome show?

[02:09:25]

sphery:

heh, I never watched it

[02:10:06]

[R]:

its on like universal hd

[02:12:32]

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[02:18:28]

tim_:

sphery: I ran configure with the options you recommended. It ran successfully but gave a warning that 'yasm not found, performance will suffer'. What is yasm and is it a big deal? Sorry for the noob questions.

[02:21:11]

wagnerrp:

yasm is an assembler utility

[02:21:24]

sphery:

tim_: it's an assembler program. http://www.tortall.net/projects/yasm/ . It's needed to build some of the optimized video code from ffmpeg

[02:21:30]

wagnerrp:

its used for the hand coded ASM used in ffmpeg and the audio code

[02:22:00]

sphery:

chances are your distro has a package for it

[02:22:06]

wagnerrp:

any reason youre not running 64-bit?

[02:22:09]

tim_:

Sounds like it's worth installing ;) Thanks.

[02:22:25]

tim_:

No good reason.

[02:29:31]

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[02:36:51]

borei:

hi all

[02:37:33]

borei:

can somebody gimme heads up about how to use mythtv as a media server with PS3

[02:37:44]

borei:

mostly streaming mkv to PS3

[02:37:54]

wagnerrp:

you cant stream mkvs to a ps3

[02:38:01]

wagnerrp:

the ps3 does not support that container

[02:38:58]

borei:

that is correct

[02:39:04]

borei:

i need to transcode it

[02:39:14]

[R]:

why would you transcode

[02:39:18]

borei:

is it possible to do with mithtv

[02:39:19]

[R]:

mkv isn't a codec

[02:39:35]

borei:

im new one with all this things

[02:39:41]

borei:

so need some direction

[02:39:52]

[R]:

myth serves whatever files you throw at it

[02:39:57]

[R]:

if ps3 doesnt support those, tan you need something else

[02:40:00]

[R]:

nothing tod ow ith myth

[02:40:40]

borei:

hmm, so i don't have option to utilize ps3 with mythtv ?

[02:40:48]

wagnerrp:

the ps3 supports a very specific profile of h264 video and aac-lc audio in an mp4 container

[02:40:56]

[R]:

borei: when did anyone say that?

[02:41:17]

wagnerrp:

the tool you used to encode to mkv in the first place will likely have a profile for export to the PS3

[02:41:22]

wagnerrp:

just recompress it using that profile

[02:41:24]

borei:

well, i was trying to install mythtv onto ps3 directly

[02:41:35]

borei:

using YDL 6.x

[02:41:48]

borei:

performance is not very good

[02:41:52]

[R]:

well duh

[02:42:03]

wagnerrp:

thats because the cell is a piece of junk

[02:42:18]

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[02:42:20]

wagnerrp:

a dual dispatch single core PPC, with no out-of-order execution, at 3.2GHz

[02:42:26]

borei:

well, cell is not piece of junk, it's closed

[02:42:31]

wagnerrp:

you may as well use an Atom

[02:42:35]

borei:

lol

[02:42:37]

wagnerrp:

no, the cell is an open architecture

[02:42:46]

wagnerrp:

well documented

[02:42:51]

borei:

sony closed access to resources

[02:42:58]

wagnerrp:

not on the cell they didnt

[02:43:06]

wagnerrp:

they closed access to the video card

[02:43:12]

borei:

using within ps3 ?

[02:43:12]

wagnerrp:

but you have nearly full access to the cell

[02:43:17]

borei:

ok

[02:43:25]

borei:

will keep it in mind

[02:43:31]

borei:

to all 8 kernels ?

[02:43:36]

wagnerrp:

one of the SPEs is disabled in hardware, another delegated to the hypervisor

[02:43:40]

wagnerrp:

all eight... kernels?

[02:43:55]

borei:

SPEs i think

[02:44:03]

borei:

ok ok

[02:44:09]

borei:

it's another topic

[02:44:16]

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[02:44:24]

wagnerrp:

when running linux on the PS3, you have access to the PPC and 6 of the 8 SPEs

[02:44:33]

borei:

i'd like to concentrate on the "how to play what ever i have"

[02:44:39]

wagnerrp:

but its all for naught, because no one has written decoder libraries for the SPEs

[02:44:47]

[R]:

borei: it doesnt work that way... you play whatever it supports

[02:44:49]

wagnerrp:

and the PPC doesnt have enough power to do much of anything

[02:44:53]

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[02:44:56]

borei:

correct

[02:45:09]

wagnerrp:

so back to my original comment

[02:45:12]

borei:

i need convert whatever i have to whatever it can play

[02:45:28]

wagnerrp:

whatever profile you used to encode that 'mkv' probably used settings the PS3 will not support

[02:45:38]

wagnerrp:

you can try to remux it to a mp4 or m2ts for streaming

[02:45:54]

wagnerrp:

but chances are youll need to find a proper ps3 compatible profile in whatever compression tool you used

[02:46:00]

wagnerrp:

and recompress from the original source

[02:46:15]

borei:

sounds like long way

[02:59:57]

sphery:

sticking the disc in the drive before transcoding to a usable format versus transcoding an already-transcoded version to a usable format and suffering generational loss in the process...

[03:00:52]

sphery:

even if you do consider the act of sticking a disc in the drive before the h.264 -> h.264 transcode the long way, compared to h.264 -> h.264 transcode with generational loss, it's still the best way and will give you the best results

[03:00:52]

wagnerrp:

you should be able to remux a VOB off a DVD to an m2ts and play it directly on the PS3

[03:01:02]

wagnerrp:

and off the bluray, you shouldnt have to do anything

[03:01:34]

sphery:

so that way, you'd be skipping the transcode--which is definitely the long way in any process

[03:01:38]

sphery:

and you'd get the best results

[03:01:46]

wagnerrp:

i read 'gravitational loss'

[03:01:54]

wagnerrp:

wondering what you could possibly be talking about

[03:02:04]

sphery:

I agree with wagnerrp--re-ripping from original disc is the best approach

[03:02:33]

wagnerrp:

gravitational loss would be a disc damaged by dropping it

[03:02:36]

sphery:

wagnerrp: heh, if you let the gravitons out of your file, you could suffer a gravitational loss

[03:02:47]

sphery:

or that

[03:10:08]

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[03:23:43]

darkdrgn2k:

whats the upper limit of femon?

[03:23:59]

darkdrgn2k:

ie is it dc/ff or 00dc/ffff

[03:30:47]

kormoc:

Ironman's suit froze up somewhere between 8 and 50km, but then he did the mark III suit and fixed the issue

[03:30:53]

** kormoc makes a bad pun **

[03:32:15]

darkdrgn2k:

wa wa waaaaa

[03:34:12]

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[03:50:57]

sphery:

I'm still trying to figure out kormoc's pun

[03:51:57]

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[03:53:47]

kormoc:

sphery, Femon, fe is iron, mon is jamaican for man

[03:57:53]

sphery:

ahhhh

[03:57:59]

** sphery is slow **

[03:58:18]

kormoc:

heh

[03:58:24]

kormoc:

it was a bad pun

[04:05:25]

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[04:05:40]

wagnerrp:

yeah... i didnt understand that whole part of the movie

[04:06:09]

wagnerrp:

the bastards got a gigawatt class reactor strapped to his chest, hes not going to freeze

[04:06:28]

wagnerrp:

three gigawatt IIRC

[04:06:40]

wagnerrp:

thats about the size of the largest power plant ever built

[04:06:49]

sphery:

wow, that could power 2 flux capacitors

[04:06:56]

wagnerrp:

in a little unit the size of a fist, stuck in his chest

[04:07:24]

sphery:

the hardest part was miniaturizing the tubines and plumbing

[04:07:42]

wagnerrp:

its solid state, due to the magic of palladium

[04:07:52]

sphery:

heh

[04:08:05]

sphery:

so it's a hydrogen fuel cell? :)

[04:08:17]

wagnerrp:

you could say that

[04:08:41]

wagnerrp:

slightly different process than the kind they want to put in cars

[04:09:25]

sphery:

ah, so my toyota won't have a 3GW nuke in it?

[04:09:36]

wagnerrp:

no, probably not

[04:10:15]

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[04:10:18]

wagnerrp:

you know, people look at that thing, and think the suit is amazing, or the powered flight through the repulsors is amazing

[04:10:53]

wagnerrp:

if we could find a power source, the rest is just a not-that-difficult engineering problem

[04:10:56]

sphery:

I was about to write Toyota a letter and tell them how they could use their Prius 3GW nuclear reactor to power a roller coaster

[04:11:08]

wagnerrp:

seriously... WTF...

[04:11:49]

sphery:

(the commercial where the guy talks about how he thought they could use the regenerative braking tech in a roller coaster)

[04:11:52]

wagnerrp:

roller coasters have been using linear motors and magnetic breaking since long before the prius was released

[04:12:00]

sphery:

heh

[04:12:03]

sphery:

yeah

[04:12:32]

sphery:

but a presumably attractive man with a baby said Toyota did it, so it must be true

[04:13:14]

sphery:

and Toyota figured out how you could somehow harness the power of the sun to run fans to keep medical tents cool

[04:14:19]

wagnerrp:

but it took an insurance salesman to figure out you could harness the power of golf club socks to keep bats warm

[04:14:35]

sphery:

heh

[04:15:18]

sphery:

I didn't remember his being an insurance salesman

[04:15:31]

wagnerrp:

all state

[04:16:15]

sphery:

I have to watch that movie again

[04:16:32]

wagnerrp:

no, the actor is currently the spokes person for all state insurance

[04:17:17]

sphery:

woah, I didn't realize that was Dennis Haysbert

[04:17:31]

sphery:

now I /really/ need to re-watch the movie

[04:18:13]

wagnerrp:

in the movie or the ad?

[04:19:23]

sphery:

in the movie

[04:25:50]

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[04:56:03]

Beirdo:

heh, I'm sure that Toyota got the idea from the roller coasters, not the other way around.

[04:58:58]

Beirdo:

OK, frontend running with the keypress fix.. MUCH better

[04:59:49]

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[05:00:54]

bonelifer:

wishes I could get the eject part working, it was working then it stopped: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Soundgraph_iMON_An . . . hbuntu_10.10

[05:01:28]

bonelifer:

not sure what I did to break it. i've set them executable

[05:01:35]

bonelifer:

the work manually

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TCS:

ok I'm completely puzzled, I can get flash video to play on a variety of sites, however I can't get any rev3 content to play in mythnetvision however it plays perfect in firefox?

[05:30:07]

TCS:

if I downgrade to an older version of flash rev3 content will play but it is very choppy

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Cydd:

omfg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fOtJi8dL_8

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[09:16:56]

laga:

so, what was the magic needed to have the OSD rendered in screen res, not in video res?

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laga:

also, what do people use to show backend status on the desktop?

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natanojl:

laga: Use the OpenGL or VDPAU renderer instead of XVideo

[09:44:32]

laga:

natanojl: thanks

[09:45:45]

natanojl:

laga: np

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johnf1911:

so, I was attempting to transcode a HD-PVR recording

[13:53:10]

johnf1911:

using nuvexport

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johnf1911:

but mythtranscode keeps throwing floating point exception

[13:53:42]

johnf1911:

I'm not the only person to have noted this issue either :)

[13:56:14]

johnf1911:

hmm, wtf

[13:56:18]

johnf1911:

it looks like this time it worked

[13:56:31]

johnf1911:

I'll continue my investigations

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wagnerrp:

laga: there are status monitors available for the gnome dock and windows widgets

[14:22:43]

wagnerrp:

both mentioned on the wiki

[14:23:00]

wagnerrp:

johnf1911: why would you want to transcode HDPVR output, its already in h264

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johnf1911:

because I want to remove the commercials

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johnf1911:

also, I'll sometimes want to transcode for my phone

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[15:41:23]

Methuselah:

I think there has been a bug introduced in mythtv in the last daily mythtbuntu updates. Basically everything works fine by keyboard, but now when I use my remote it locks up watching tv. I see some tickets describing similar things with starting playback but I don't see any that have problems just with remote playback.

[15:42:09]

Methuselah:

The problems occurs when starting playback, just locks screen.

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[15:44:32]

kenni:

Methuselah: The issue was fixes 12 hours ago in both master and in 0.24-fixes. The Mythbuntu updates tomorrow/later today should include it.

[15:45:54]

kenni:

it happens when you (or your remote) sends several keypresses before playback has started. If you only click once, it'll works fine.

[15:46:11]

kenni:

s/works/work/

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_cal_:

so hmm.. lately when I page through the guide in livetv, it is somewhat slower when going to the next page and the audio kicks off for a half second or so.

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[16:53:29]

_cal_:

I ran the mythtv optimize database script and put the optimization changes into the mysql server config.

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[16:54:21]

_cal_:

any other suggestions or should I move my database to a ram drive which is also on the mythtv optimization doc?

[16:55:00]

laga:

which mythtv optimization document would that be?

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[16:55:20]

_cal_:

if I go to pages I have already been to it is fine. nice and fast. no audio cutout. must be caching.

[16:56:28]

_cal_:

the first link that comes up when googling mythtv optimization ;)

[16:56:46]

_cal_:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Optimizing_Performance

[16:57:23]

_cal_:

section 5.2 has mysql database tweaks

[16:57:38]

laga:

hum, sounds crackpot-ish. i would rather increase mysql memory than have my DB on a ram disk

[16:58:19]

_cal_:

well, looks like an official doc to me ;)

[16:58:34]

laga:

looks like a wiki to me ;)

[16:58:41]

_cal_:

lol

[16:59:02]

laga:

but hey, it's your data, go ahead ;)

[16:59:36]

_cal_:

when you say increase memory, are you talking about the same settings it talks about in /etc/my.cfg

[17:00:20]

_cal_:

well i am sure a ram drive would speed things up, but it does sound like a bit much.

[17:10:55]

wagnerrp:

yes, any suggestion to move your database to a ramdisk is crackpot-ish

[17:11:27]

_cal_:

lol its a document on mythtv.org

[17:11:28]

wagnerrp:

if you have the memory and want to give it to mysql, just tell mysql to use it directly

[17:11:42]

wagnerrp:

no, its on a publicly editable wiki

[17:11:45]

wagnerrp:

theres a difference

[17:11:52]

_cal_:

even has startup and shutdown scripts all made

[17:12:15]

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[17:12:15]

wagnerrp:

look at all the warnings above it

[17:12:26]

laga:

_cal_: so, i go to wikipedia and write "loldongs" all over an article there. would you believe what was written there?

[17:12:28]

wagnerrp:

at my window size, thats like have a page

[17:13:30]

_cal_:

well some wiki's are goverened over. looks like the mythtv.org one is not. thanks for the warning.

[17:13:38]

wagnerrp:

_cal_: i dont see any suggestion to run mysql on a ramdrive on the mythtv wiki

[17:14:48]

_cal_:

wagnerrp: it's in section 5.2

[17:15:14]

wagnerrp:

section 5.2 is 'MySQL Database Tweaks'

[17:15:27]

_cal_:

yup

[17:15:28]

wagnerrp:

just a modified my.conf

[17:15:32]

wagnerrp:

cnf

[17:16:03]

_cal_:

its below that

[17:16:04]

wagnerrp:

i dont see anything on there related to mysql on a ramdrive

[17:16:10]

_cal_:

MySQL on a RAM Drive

[17:16:18]

wagnerrp:

directly below that is some fix for Xorg hogging CPU

[17:17:03]

_cal_:

further down, lol. just search for the title i pasted.

[17:17:28]

wagnerrp:

yeah, i just dont see it

[17:17:34]

_cal_:

you just said you already saw it though

[17:17:40]

_cal_:

you talked about all the warnings it had

[17:17:49]

wagnerrp:

i dont see it now

[17:17:55]

wagnerrp:

it just... disappeared

[17:18:02]

_cal_:

lol ;)

[17:18:37]

_cal_:

okay so..wow its gone. guess I must have been seeing things.

[17:19:07]

laga:

yeah, occasionally, crackpot-ish things are removed

[17:19:27]

wagnerrp:

seems i was the one who put that huge block of warnings there in the first place

[17:19:35]

wagnerrp:

dont know why i didnt remove it as soon as it was added

[17:19:49]

wagnerrp:

apparently tommyg is a crackpot

[17:19:50]

johnf1911:

you were too busy fixing hd transcoding!

[17:19:54]

johnf1911:

;)

[17:21:14]

_cal_:

I still think it would have fixed my issue, even if it was a bit excessive.

[17:21:34]

wagnerrp:

it would have /bypassed/ one issue, and caused a whole slew of others

[17:22:24]

_cal_:

yeah, prolly right.

[17:23:07]

wagnerrp:

this mailing list thread just wont die...

[17:24:03]

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[17:24:21]

_cal_:

guess I will look into upgrading memory from 2gig to 4gig

[17:25:09]

_cal_:

wagner: is there a way i could "pre-cache" all the pages, even if the guide takes longer to open up the first time?

[17:25:54]

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[17:25:57]

_cal_:

cause like i said, when i pgdown or pgup to a page I already went to before, it has no problem. guessing it's caching.

[17:26:26]

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[17:28:14]

wagnerrp:

when you open the guide, there will be one query for all programs in the next few hours, and another query for the upcoming recordings

[17:28:23]

wagnerrp:

after that, there is no further access to the database

[17:28:32]

wagnerrp:

meaning the slowdown must be caused by something else

[17:28:45]

wagnerrp:

my guess would be incremental loading of new channel icons from the backend

[17:29:09]

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[17:29:33]

wagnerrp:

if thats the case, nothing you do to the database would have any affect

[17:29:41]

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[17:30:32]

wagnerrp:

xris: do we still have access to the old wiki?

[17:31:00]

wagnerrp:

the 'wiki navigation' bit on the left side is the stock mediawiki list

[17:31:06]

wagnerrp:

we used to have a custom lis

[17:31:07]

wagnerrp:

t

[17:31:17]

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[17:31:51]

wagnerrp:

dirtyblanket: you were in the right channel before, just no one around to currently help you

[17:32:14]

dirtyblanket:

thanks wangerrp :)

[17:33:26]

dirtyblanket:

When I try to "make" the helloworld plugin, I get the following errors http://mythtv.pastebin.com/siuNDxsa

[17:37:42]

_cal_:

wagner: hmm you got me thinking when you said icons. i when i reinstalled mythtv i reloaded my old db. however i never didnt save my old icon files, so the icon folder is empty. maybe the old db still has links to icons which are no longer there which is causing the slowdown?

[17:38:43]

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[17:40:13]

wagnerrp:

normally you only have to load those icons once on a frontend

[17:40:23]

wagnerrp:

if it thinks there should be icons, and theyre arent

[17:40:32]

wagnerrp:

it will try to load every icon every time you enter that screen

[17:41:21]

sphery:

helloworld plugin? some wiki thing?

[17:42:02]

sphery:

maybe http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Building_Plugins:HelloMyth ?

[17:42:49]

sphery:

dirtyblanket: did you actually install mythtv first (and by that I mean mythtv and its development headers)?

[17:43:29]

** wagnerrp advises sphery to handle this on the development channel **

[17:43:44]

sphery:

why?

[17:44:11]

wagnerrp:

if you read the backlog over there, its already been solved... :)

[17:44:56]

sphery:

that only said the -I's were wrong, but not why they were wrong

[17:45:26]

wagnerrp:

oh... he could be trying to build it out-of-tree

[17:45:42]

sphery:

make[1]: Entering directory `/home/blink/mythplugins/mythhello/mythhello'

[17:45:50]

sphery:

seems in tree

[17:46:58]

sphery:

just figured without a proper dev install of mythtv, configure may fail at finding the proper include dirs for mythtv

[17:47:20]

wagnerrp:

very possibly the case

[17:47:34]

sphery:

anyway, he may have figured out whatever was causing it from what you mentioned

[17:47:59]

wagnerrp:

no responses on the ML yet... wonder if that was 'tl;dr'

[17:48:20]

wagnerrp:

or if the people who it concerns are just sleeping in on a sunday morning

[17:54:06]

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[17:54:39]

sphery:

annoying that the please wait--that didn't even show up for some users before--is such a big deal to those for whom it used to show

[17:54:57]

sphery:

it's always been a race condition

[17:55:05]

sphery:

we just did what we could to skew the race a bit

[17:55:30]

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[18:46:23]

johnf1911:

actually, I have another problem with my HD-PVR recordings

[18:46:32]

johnf1911:

when I play them back on my backend/desktop machine

[18:46:39]

johnf1911:

the audio has strange chopping issues

[18:46:47]

johnf1911:

mplayer doesn't exhibit the same behaviour

[18:47:03]

johnf1911:

no issues with playback on the frontend, though the decoding, at least for ac3, is passed through to my amp

[18:48:12]

wagnerrp:

what distro?

[18:48:39]

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[18:48:39]

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[18:49:03]

johnf1911:

ubuntu 10.04

[18:49:13]

johnf1911:

packages from avenard.org however

[18:49:16]

wagnerrp:

stock ubuntu? or mythbuntu?

[18:49:22]

johnf1911:

neither :)

[18:49:31]

wagnerrp:

you installed jya

[18:49:38]

wagnerrp:

's packages on top of stock ubuntu?

[18:49:47]

johnf1911:

yes

[18:49:50]

johnf1911:

sorry

[18:49:50]

wagnerrp:

or did he roll an entire new version of ubuntu?

[18:49:59]

johnf1911:

no, he just has myth

[18:50:03]

johnf1911:

well, and maybe an mplayer

[18:50:06]

johnf1911:

yes, mplayer

[18:50:10]

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[18:50:14]

wagnerrp:

so your OS and mplayer are designed to use pulseaudio

[18:50:23]

wagnerrp:

while mythtv disables pulse and hits ALSA directly

[18:50:40]

johnf1911:

actually, the last time I discussed this issue I switched between a few different pulse/non-pulse options

[18:50:48]

johnf1911:

now that I think about it

[18:51:01]

wagnerrp:

sounds like mythtv is bitstreaming bad data to your receiver

[18:51:10]

wagnerrp:

while mplayer is decoding and sending raw PCM

[18:51:15]

johnf1911:

no, no

[18:51:27]

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[18:51:28]

johnf1911:

myth is bad with no receiver

[18:51:38]

johnf1911:

myth is fine on another machine, with the receiver

[18:51:51]

johnf1911:

mplayer is fine on the machine with no receiver

[18:52:15]

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[18:52:30]

johnf1911:

mplayer is however using -ao pulse by default

[18:52:38]

johnf1911:

you have an interesting point there

[18:53:18]

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[18:53:19]

wagnerrp:

well my point doesnt seem to be your problem, but my point was pulseaudio does not allow bitstreaming

[18:54:17]

johnf1911:

oh, I thought you could

[18:54:24]

johnf1911:

I've switched myth to use pulse

[18:54:29]

johnf1911:

let's see what that gives me

[18:54:57]

johnf1911:

2011-02–13 13:54:52.436 PulseAudio Error: stream buffer under flow

[18:55:00]

johnf1911:

a lot of this

[18:56:26]

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[18:57:06]

johnf1911:

and when not playing pulse, but with alsa

[18:57:09]

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[18:57:14]

johnf1911:

the audio issues seem less pronounced

[18:57:16]

johnf1911:

but still present

[18:57:44]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I figured out why my production box was working fine with only a config.xml without trying DB defaults (localhost/mythtv/mythtv). I'm not sure I want to admit to the reason, though.

[18:58:06]

johnf1911:

there are messages that indicate that it's telling pulse to pause resume

[18:58:07]

johnf1911:

2011-02–13 13:55:59.232 Pulse: PulseAudio suspend OK

[18:58:17]

johnf1911:

2011-02–13 13:56:54.605 Pulse: PulseAudio resume OK

[18:58:23]

sphery:

wagnerrp: and what I found explains why most people think there needs to be a mysql.txt, too

[18:58:31]

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[18:58:35]

wagnerrp:

johnf1911: that only makes any difference when you ARE sending to a receiver

[18:58:40]

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[18:58:50]

wagnerrp:

if mythtv doesnt work when using analog output, then theres a problem

[18:59:10]

wagnerrp:

sphery: because mythtv ignores the config.xml and reads from mysql.txt?

[18:59:25]

johnf1911:

the issue only occurs with HD-PVR recordings

[18:59:25]

wagnerrp:

:)

[18:59:28]

johnf1911:

not with other files

[18:59:31]

sphery:

wagnerrp: no, what I'm saying is myproduction box /uses/ config.xml as the first choice

[18:59:32]

johnf1911:

including files with AC3

[18:59:45]

wagnerrp:

are you using toslink capture from your cable box?

[19:00:07]

johnf1911:

yes

[19:00:10]

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[19:00:18]

johnf1911:

it appears to work properly

[19:00:22]

johnf1911:

passing through ac3

[19:00:22]

wagnerrp:

the then AC3 should be the direct output of your cable box, unedited

[19:00:31]

johnf1911:

and encoding stereo to aac

[19:02:20]

johnf1911:

yes

[19:02:29]

johnf1911:

but why can myth/my amp play the recording

[19:02:37]

johnf1911:

mplayer play the recording

[19:02:48]

johnf1911:

but not mythtv w/o the amp

[19:03:03]

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[19:03:19]

johnf1911:

it's not the recording, as if it were, the amp wouldn't be able to play it correctly either

[19:04:14]

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[19:04:33]

johnf1911:

hmm

[19:04:35]

johnf1911:

http://www.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-users/ . . . /309294.html

[19:04:42]

johnf1911:

maybe I should update

[19:04:49]

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[19:13:44]

sphery:

wagnerrp: If you do not specify a <USN> (under <DefaultBackend>) in config.xml, or if you specify the /correct/ <USN>, the UPnP stuff tries to connect and fails (yes, correct=fails), so it falls through to mysql.txt (which is missing, so it uses DB defaults). If, however, you specify an incorrect <USN> it bails and goes directly to config.xml. I seem to have had an old USN in my config.xml and it has since changed (somehow).

[19:14:08]

sphery:

wagnerrp: Seems to be related to breakage of the SecurityPin handling stuff.

[19:14:42]

sphery:

now I understand why I was the only person in the world for whom config.xml seemed to be perfect

[19:14:51]

wagnerrp:

heh

[19:14:52]

sphery:

(because mine was incorrect :)

[19:15:05]

wagnerrp:

i think mines blank

[19:15:24]

wagnerrp:

at least i have the bindings set to leave it blank

[19:15:30]

wagnerrp:

since i didnt know what was supposed to go in there

[19:17:36]

wagnerrp:

sphery: i think im going to start forward with the plans documented in that email

[19:17:51]

wagnerrp:

which means im going to have to set up a process as the master backend to run for testing

[19:18:07]

wagnerrp:

suggestions for a name?

[19:18:24]

wagnerrp:

make that mythbackend, and the others mythrecorder?

[19:21:19]

sphery:

I definitely think that the others should change

[19:21:27]

sphery:

I like mythrecorder, because it's descriptive

[19:21:31]

sphery:

I don't like mythbackend

[19:21:45]

sphery:

I would prefer mythmaster or mythscheduler or something like that

[19:22:08]

sphery:

should ask Captain_Murdoch, too... He had a pretty firm plan for it

[19:22:45]

sphery:

I think if we leave it mythbackend, people will leave their start scripts in place and try to start the master on all their hosts

[19:22:49]

sphery:

that wouldn't work well

[19:23:05]

[R]:

i can never tell if the pixellation i see is because of my cable box or because of my hdpvr

[19:23:16]

sphery:

I'd like to make a single process that's started by the init scripts (mythtv?) and then have it start the other processes, depending on local config

[19:23:53]

sphery:

so you'd just start mythtv, then on the master backend host, it would start mythmaster, and if you have capture cards defined for the host, would start mythrecorder, and if you have jobs enabled on the host, it would start mythjobqueue, and ...

[19:24:11]

sphery:

on a remote backend, it would only start mythrecorder and mythjobqueue, as appropriate

[19:28:27]

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[19:36:23]

** sphery wonders how a user got a git version of mythtv that was older than our git repo (i.e. from back when we had SVN) **

[19:36:47]

sphery:

I'd think you'd have to do that on purpose, but he seems to think his is new

[19:36:54]

wagnerrp:

they checked out the wrong changeset?

[19:37:05]

sphery:

but wouldn't you notice?

[19:37:06]

wagnerrp:

got a link?

[19:37:21]

sphery:

http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/9177#comment:18 -> https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/1a69c92

[19:37:37]

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[19:38:06]

wagnerrp:

but 151 is fairly recent

[19:39:24]

wagnerrp:

no, i bet the original commit (ee0af286) was from nov.23

[19:39:41]

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[19:41:13]

wagnerrp:

it was actually pushed feb 04

[19:41:46]

sphery:

ah, yeah

[19:41:49]

sphery:

stupid github

[19:42:10]

wagnerrp:

to be honest, i dont know how to get the real date

[19:42:52]

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[19:43:49]

sphery:

alright, I corrected the comment

[19:44:01]

sphery:

yeah, only way I found it was by clicking through the mails in my -fixes folder

[19:47:07]

sphery:

wagnerrp: anyway, with my "corrected" config.xml, it still works, but it first fails out on a localhost connection attempt

[19:47:14]

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[19:49:56]

wagnerrp:

oof... only one day left of guide data

[19:50:33]

sphery:

been having problems with your schedules direct runs?

[19:50:48]

wagnerrp:

apparently

[19:51:34]

sphery:

for me: There's guide data until 2011-03–01 02:00 (16 days).

[19:51:45]

sphery:

--dd-grab-all is great

[19:51:52]

wagnerrp:

yeah, running it manually

[19:52:03]

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[19:53:02]

wagnerrp:

ive got a question... any idea how to handle bi-directional communication?

[19:53:13]

wagnerrp:

ive been trying to think of how to handle it with this backend protocol

[19:53:26]

wagnerrp:

but i cant come up with a clean way to do so

[19:53:26]

sphery:

heh, I'm not the guy to ask

[19:53:36]

wagnerrp:

even if you lock it on one side

[19:53:52]

wagnerrp:

youre still going to end up with a race condition if both sides are querying at the same time

[19:54:27]

wagnerrp:

someone will send first, wait for a response, and fine the other's query

[19:54:56]

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[19:55:33]

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[19:55:35]

sphery:

how about 2 connections, each one-way?

[19:55:39]

wagnerrp:

i can always tag all messages, something like the existing BACKEND_COMMAND

[19:55:46]

wagnerrp:

or yeah, have two connections

[19:55:55]

wagnerrp:

and actually, i think thats what the current setup is

[19:56:08]

wagnerrp:

the frontend has one connection for queries, and another for events

[19:56:19]

sphery:

yeah, I had a half inkling that it current may be doing that, but wasn't sure enough to say so :)

[19:56:26]

wagnerrp:

the slavebackend seems to have yet a third for inbound commands

[19:56:52]

wagnerrp:

is it bad to have all those connections? is it better to have them?

[19:57:12]

sphery:

I like simplicity

[19:57:31]

sphery:

and I think multiple is probably simpler than a single, complex one

[19:57:43]

sphery:

but I'd talk to that proto-masters (i.e. not me)

[19:57:46]

wagnerrp:

fair enough, one for inbound commands, one for outbound

[19:57:50]

sphery:

like CM and danielk

[19:57:53]

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[19:58:37]

sphery:

and An d ui n, but he's been busy with other stuff for quite some time, now

[20:02:31]

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[20:02:38]

andrewe:

hi sphery

[20:02:49]

sphery:

andrewe: did you use root (or sudo) for the command?

[20:02:57]

andrewe:

no

[20:03:03]

sphery:

try it that way

[20:03:37]

sphery:

oh, and you need path to the device node, not path to the kernel module file

[20:04:21]

sphery:

so: sudo lsof /dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0

[20:04:23]

sphery:

or such

[20:04:30]

andrewe:

ok, i'll try

[20:04:50]

andrewe:

still no output

[20:04:57]

andrewe:

apart from a warning about fuse

[20:05:19]

sphery:

are you sure someone's using it?

[20:05:43]

sphery:

or are you just trying to unload the module and can't figure out how to do that because it's in use?

[20:05:50]

andrewe:

w_scan tells me

[20:06:11]

andrewe:

I'm not sure.

[20:06:24]

andrewe:

But I don't know how I can make sure the card is working.

[20:06:39]

sphery:

what exactly are you trying to do

[20:06:43]

sphery:

just make sure it's working?

[20:06:44]

andrewe:

I installed Ubuntu 10.10, and the card itself worked with older versions.

[20:07:41]

andrewe:

I installed mythtv via aptitude, and removed it again.

[20:07:49]

andrewe:

Now I compiled it myself.

[20:07:59]

andrewe:

(in between I had vdr installed)

[20:08:43]

sphery:

and you're unable to record?

[20:09:09]

andrewe:

I am unable to watch, too.

[20:09:12]

sphery:

If so, I'd recommend the capture card portion of http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/264034#264034

[20:09:25]

sphery:

which MythTV version do you have?

[20:09:37]

sphery:

if it's 0.24-fixes, you need /very/ new (like Thursday or later)

[20:09:42]

clever:

andrewe: kernel modules would never show in lsof

[20:09:53]

andrewe:

clever: ok, thanks.

[20:10:13]

clever:

the module itself is copied and then the file is closed

[20:10:19]

clever:

you want to lsof the dvb device from /dev/

[20:10:24]

andrewe:

sphery: I got the sources today.

[20:11:02]

andrewe:

clever: I ran: sudo lsof /dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0

[20:11:36]

andrewe:

does DVB work with amd64?

[20:14:09]

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[20:17:41]

andrewe:

sorry, i probably misinterpreted the output of w_scan.

[20:17:51]

andrewe:

I was missing a parameter '-f s'

[20:18:20]

andrewe:

So, now to my real problem: If I scan inside mythtv, I get a 'No lock' error.

[20:18:25]

andrewe:

What can I do about that?

[20:18:29]

lotia is now known as lotia-away

[20:19:01]

sphery:

andrewe: in mythtv-setup try changing the timeouts for your card

[20:19:21]

sphery:

andrewe: also, note that you should probably get no lock on the vast majority of channels--just means it didn't find a channel there

[20:22:03]

andrewe:

sphery: I doubt that's it, but I'll give it a try...

[20:22:56]

andrewe:

sphery: I have to provide a frequency for the scan, for that channel it should get a lock, shouldn't it?

[20:24:39]

sphery:

don't know... I've always just done a full scan

[20:24:49]

sphery:

what you say makes sense, though

[20:31:21]

andrewe:

sphery: I only see "Full scan (tuned)" and for that, I have to provider an initial frequency

[20:31:42]

andrewe:

sphery: I'd love to do a blind scan (as with w_scan), but I don't know how.

[20:33:08]

andrewe:

sphery: maybe it's a problem with my diseqc setup (although it's just a switch with two lnbs)

[20:33:25]

sphery:

ah, you may have to do it that way for DVB-S

[20:33:58]

sphery:

all I can recommend is http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/DVB-S

[20:36:39]

andrewe:

sphery: thanks for your support.

[20:37:03]

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[20:51:52]

andrewe:

sphery: I changed the number of ports on my diseqc switch from 2 to 4, now it seems to be that channels can be found (at least the scan does not abort immediately with "Failed to find channels")

[20:52:06]

sphery:

cool

[20:52:08]

sphery:

hope it works

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[20:59:48]

sphery:

wagnerrp: Reading your e-mail in detail. In the protocol section, I was noticing the 2x size for JSON ProgramInfo versus smaller size for protobuf ProgramInfo, and was thinking, "Too bad it's not worth doing both JSON and protobuf," then started to think about cdev's http-based JSON stuff. Assuming he ever shows anyone the code (so we can finish it up if he's too busy), would it allay your fears of 3rd party software needing to have ...

[20:59:54]

sphery:

... protobuf support? We could use protobuf for protocol, and bindings can provide high-level functionality that requires the protocol, and 3rd party apps could use bindings and/or the HTTP JSON interface....

[21:00:30]

sphery:

protobuf would also allow sending only required data versus every single field

[21:00:43]

sphery:

(right?)

[21:01:20]

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[21:03:15]

sphery:

ok, maybe sending only required data with protobuf would require defining extra "simple" proto objects

[21:03:36]

sphery:

ah, no, wait... there are optional fields

[21:03:36]

sphery:

nvm

[21:13:50]

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[21:29:57]

wagnerrp:

sphery: sort of, there are required fields and optional fields

[21:30:09]

wagnerrp:

i assume the optional fields mean they do not have to be sent across the wire

[21:30:17]

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[21:30:20]

wagnerrp:

but ive not looked sufficiently in depth to know for certain

[21:31:03]

andrewe:

sphery: you cannot remove required fields, only optional ones (in future versions)

[21:31:08]

andrewe:

good night

[21:32:19]

wagnerrp:

andrewe: the question is of which data gets sent across the wire

[21:32:25]

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[21:32:28]

wagnerrp:

for instance the pro...

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[22:19:40]

RomioTango:

Gents, I have (2) dvico cards that I am using to tune OTA digital broadcast. For whatever reason it seems as though its not pulling the EIT data despite my source being set for EIT

[22:19:45]

RomioTango:

any idea?

[22:19:57]

wagnerrp:

stop using EIT

[22:20:07]

RomioTango:

what do you use to collect data?

[22:20:13]

wagnerrp:

schedules direct

[22:20:22]

RomioTango:

thats what i figured.. :-\

[22:20:27]

RomioTango:

this box is for a friend

[22:20:46]

wagnerrp:

have him sign up for an account

[22:21:00]

RomioTango:

I was thinking about just adding his channel line-up to my username

[22:21:26]

wagnerrp:

likely against your data license

[22:21:35]

RomioTango:

yeah probably so

[22:22:53]

RomioTango:

didn't know if there was a known prob w/ EIT data or not

[22:23:02]

wagnerrp:

yes, its a known problem

[22:23:04]

wagnerrp:

EIT sucks

[22:23:10]

RomioTango:

probably 3–4 years ago I used strictly EIT and had no real issue

[22:23:11]

wagnerrp:

nothing we can do about it

[22:23:22]

wagnerrp:

then you are the exception to the rule

[22:23:40]

wagnerrp:

most people only get one or two shows in the future

[22:23:56]

wagnerrp:

usable for livetv, but thats not what mythtv is for

[22:23:58]

RomioTango:

yeah i understand.. is it just that the signal is weak or unreadable... or is it that they're no longer putting all in the information in via EIT

[22:24:01]

wagnerrp:

worthless for scheduling

[22:24:13]

RomioTango:

got ya

[22:24:20]

wagnerrp:

they never put any information in EIT, since they dont have to, and its of no value for them to do so

[22:24:33]

RomioTango:

yeah i understand

[22:24:36]

RomioTango:

thanks for the input sir

[22:24:45]

wagnerrp:

anyone who has a commercial DVR gets guide data as part of their subscription

[22:25:04]

wagnerrp:

tivo has a monthly fee, or you can pay a very large sum for a lifetime subscription

[22:25:11]

RomioTango:

yeah

[22:25:15]

wagnerrp:

microsoft includes the fee with the software purchase

[22:25:26]

wagnerrp:

cable/sat DVRs provide it as part of your subscription

[22:25:34]

wagnerrp:

schedules direct is no different, just a lot cheaper

[22:25:59]

RomioTango:

yeah.. i think they limit you to 4 feeds though

[22:26:05]

RomioTango:

per subscription

[22:26:08]

wagnerrp:

correct

[22:26:23]

wagnerrp:

probably a Tribune limitation, rather than a SD one

[22:26:40]

wagnerrp:

just the language of the contract they were able to work out

[22:26:50]

RomioTango:

ever use an xmltv or w/e it is

[22:27:15]

wagnerrp:

the only viable XMLTV script for use in north america pulls from a schedules direct account

[22:27:40]

wagnerrp:

xmltv_na_dd or something

[22:28:05]

RomioTango:

ooohhh

[22:28:05]

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[22:28:19]

sphery:

tv_grab_na_dd

[22:28:40]

wagnerrp:

dd being data direct, the tribune servers that SD redirects you to

[22:29:16]

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[22:30:42]

sphery:

I think the limitation of 4 lineups is specifically to prevent abuse where people share an account

[22:30:51]

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[22:31:10]

sphery:

4 was determined to be sufficient for any reasonable non-commercial user who's not sharing it with anyone

[22:31:28]

sphery:

assuming you have OTA, cable, and satellite, that's still only 3

[22:31:43]

** wagnerrp wonders why he continues to get into arguments with people on blog message boards about rocket science **

[22:31:51]

sphery:

heh, got a link?

[22:32:08]

wagnerrp:

just some thing on io9 about a space elevator

[22:32:19]

wagnerrp:

guy claiming it would solve all our problems

[22:32:34]

[R]:

wagnerrp: you like being argumentative...

[22:32:44]

wagnerrp:

except it would really only solve all our problems for geostationary orbits and earth escapes

[22:32:50]

sphery:

you mean the, "Let's somehow string a wire 22500 miles up from the ground, support it, and only be able to use it from the equator"

[22:32:55]

sphery:

space elevator?

[22:32:59]

wagnerrp:

yeah, that thing

[22:33:12]

sphery:

yeah, such a wonderful plan

[22:33:39]

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[22:34:00]

sphery:

oh, wait, not as hard as I imagined... You only have to make it 22,236 miles long

[22:34:06]

wagnerrp:

most people dont realize how expensive it is to move around in space

[22:34:30]

wagnerrp:

it takes you about 10km/s to get into low earth orbit

[22:34:49]

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[22:35:04]

sphery:

yeah, and most think it's actually hard to keep from falling into the sun

[22:35:16]

wagnerrp:

it takes you almost 13km/s to transition from an equatorial orbit the elevator would place you on, to a polar orbit most LEO satellites fly at

[22:35:18]

sphery:

when, in fact, it's easier to escape the sun than to hit it (from Earth)

[22:35:31]

wagnerrp:

meaning its cheaper to launch from the ground, than take the elevator to space

[22:35:33]

sphery:

i.e. leaving the solar system is easier than hitting the sun

[22:37:02]

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[22:37:03]

justinh:

heh no it's just good fun really. Like leaving pro-creation comments on blogs that applaud Darwinism

[22:37:15]

sphery:

heh, that's interesting... didn't realize--even from the "assuming we solved the space elevator construction problem" standpoint--just how much you'd need to change the orbit to something useful

[22:37:21]

justinh:

oh come on just admit it – the dinos lived alongside Adam & Eve, man!

[22:37:48]

wagnerrp:

justinh: shaddup, thats my state youre talking about... :P

[22:37:50]

sphery:

if not, then how you explain Fred/Barney/Dino?

[22:39:10]

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[22:39:54]

sphery:

dirtyblanket: by mythtv development stuff, I mean /usr/{,local/}include/mythtv/* (i.e. you need to compile and install mythtv or you need to get a package that has all the development headers for mythtv from your packager)

[22:40:11]

sphery:

heh, which is what wagnerrp said in the other channel

[22:40:42]

wagnerrp:

sphery: the worst part is when they tell me i should go read the wikipedia page for more information

[22:40:46]

sphery:

and, yeah, using current mythtv from github is definitely what you want, as mentioned at http://code.mythtv.org/trac

[22:40:55]

sphery:

wagnerrp: heh, funny

[22:41:02]

wagnerrp:

rather than turn to the stack of authoritative textbooks ive got on the shelf behind me

[22:41:09]

** sphery goes to read the wikipedia space elevator opage **

[22:45:46]

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[22:45:52]

sphery:

wagnerrp: seems the blogger is right--it's the answer to all our problems

[22:46:25]

justinh:

sod the space elevator. I want a teleporter

[22:47:20]

wagnerrp:

well like i said, geostationary and escape, its great

[22:47:26]

wagnerrp:

everything else... meh

[22:47:44]

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[22:47:54]

sphery:

Ah, one of those luggage-transportation systems? Check into a nice hotel, and say, "Tell a porter to bring these to my room."

[22:48:30]

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[22:48:33]

wagnerrp:

its a teleporter

[22:48:35]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah, just saying that the wikipedia article is very pro

[22:48:43]

wagnerrp:

so you would call for the porter using your in-room phone

[22:49:46]

justinh:

heh no I mean more stand on a pad, some grumpy old bloke wearing a wig operates a slider whose display follows his hand movements shoddily – and appear as if by magic in a different place ;-)

[22:49:54]

wagnerrp:

thats the problem with anything, everything is a tradeoff

[22:50:12]

wagnerrp:

and the armchair engineers and rocket scientists dont understand the downsides of various tech

[22:50:13]

sphery:

wagnerrp: also wondering about, "Construction would be a large project: the minimum length of an Earth-based space elevator is well over 38,000 km (24,000 mi) long."

[22:50:33]

sphery:

so, the extra 1700mi are just engineering factor?

[22:50:36]

wagnerrp:

the center of mass must be in geostationary orbit

[22:50:47]

wagnerrp:

extra 1700mi?

[22:50:50]

sphery:

If 22,236 miles is good, 24,000 must be better

[22:51:10]

sphery:

geostationary is 22,236

[22:51:13]

wagnerrp:

oh

[22:51:18]

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[22:51:18]

justinh:

sphery: easy peasy! I mean we go through way more cable than that – just remember all the claims that 'USB cables made last year would stretch to the moon five times' kinda stuff ;-)

[22:51:19]

wagnerrp:

didnt know the number off hand

[22:51:31]

sphery:

they use about 10 different numbers in the space elevator page

[22:51:32]

RomioTango:

yay i love mythtv lol

[22:51:39]

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[22:51:47]

RomioTango:

anyone here running mythtv on a slackware install?

[22:51:59]

sphery:

justinh: heh, yeah, a USB space elevator... sounds like something you would buy from ThinkGeek

[22:52:18]

RomioTango:

want to redo my masterbackend and debating which OS i should run on it

[22:52:18]

wagnerrp:

too bad USB is only good for 16ft

[22:52:37]

wagnerrp:

definitely LFS

[22:52:45]

sphery:

heh

[22:53:02]

justinh:

linux would be a good choice

[22:53:10]

sphery:

yeah, the most important point is to find the distribution that's least like a MythTV system, and use that

[22:53:14]

wagnerrp:

linux isnt an OS

[22:53:30]

justinh:

oh yeah. kernel

[22:53:31]

sphery:

There's no such thing as an OS... Only kernels and applications!

[22:53:38]

justinh:

so NotBuntu then :)

[22:54:00]

sphery:

which is why the entire MS antitrust lawsuit was BS... Claiming IE is part of the OS

[22:54:06]

sphery:

no, it's an application

[22:54:34]

sphery:

it just so happens that a large percentage of the other applications MS distributed in the package called Windows were based on that IE application

[22:54:38]

sphery:

and wouldn't work without it

[22:54:41]

justinh:

wasn't it so entrenched into the OS it might as well have been? ;-)

[22:54:50]

sphery:

like I said, no such thing as an OS

[22:54:55]

wagnerrp:

application? or library?

[22:55:08]

sphery:

libraries are just building blocks of applications

[22:55:13]

wagnerrp:

should be trivial to just remove the executable

[22:55:18]

wagnerrp:

look! no more IE!

[22:55:21]

sphery:

ah, yeah

[22:55:26]

sphery:

could do that

[22:55:31]

sphery:

but MS just didn't want to back down

[22:55:37]

sphery:

and wanted to waste billions of my tax $

[22:55:46]

wagnerrp:

WTF not

[22:55:48]

sphery:

(and so did the government)

[22:56:16]

wagnerrp:

removing a single couple MB file to become compliant would have shown just how ridiculous the whole thing was

[22:56:30]

sphery:

and the whole "overpriced" argument... Windows has been one of the least expensive "operating systems" for years

[22:56:36]

sphery:

anyway

[22:56:56]

sphery:

RomioTango: for real, I would actually recommend Mythbuntu.

[22:57:14]

wagnerrp:

yeah, my windows 7 ultimate cost me $7 + tax

[22:57:21]

wagnerrp:

talk about inexpensive

[22:57:31]

justinh:

eh? how?

[22:57:41]

sphery:

RomioTango: If you only have experience with Arch, you might want to choose LinHES. If you only have experience with Red-Hat-based system, you might want to choose MythDora.

[22:57:50]

sphery:

justinh: OEM versions that ship with laptops, etc.

[22:57:59]

justinh:

in terms of walking into a shop & buying a boxed disc – if you're not a student or whatever... eesh

[22:58:00]

wagnerrp:

justinh: educational license

[22:58:03]

sphery:

though he may have gotten an academic one

[22:58:31]

wagnerrp:

XP Pro was like $6, and another $20 for additional copies

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[22:58:38]

sphery:

justinh: but still, $99 for MS Windows 7 Home compared to how much for Solaris or HP UX or ...

[22:58:43]

wagnerrp:

i think office was $15

[22:58:52]

sphery:

in general most people pay $20 or less for each copy of windows

[22:58:58]

wagnerrp:

'Home' isnt an OS

[22:59:07]

wagnerrp:

its an expensive coaster

[22:59:09]

sphery:

because they get oem versions with the laptops and desktops they buy

[22:59:14]

wagnerrp:

that thing is absolutely worthless

[22:59:15]

justinh:

Ow. OW. OW... http://www.scan.co.uk/Shop/Computer-Hardware/ . . . -7-64Bit-OEM

[22:59:30]

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justinh:

Â£140 !!

[22:59:37]

sphery:

wagnerrp: home premium is worthless? why?

[22:59:37]

wagnerrp:

sphery: have you ever tried to clean up family/friends computers running Home?

[22:59:50]

sphery:

yeah

[22:59:53]

sphery:

seems ok

[23:00:04]

wagnerrp:

they lock you out of all the fancy security and diagnostic tools

[23:00:05]

sphery:

as far as windows goes, that is

[23:00:18]

wagnerrp:

the powerful stuff that actually lets you clean that cruft off a machine

[23:00:25]

sphery:

ahhh

[23:00:26]

wagnerrp:

its just disabled

[23:00:27]

justinh:

wagnerrp: is any of that stuff actually any use anyway?

[23:00:31]

sphery:

I only "clean" new systems

[23:00:40]

justinh:

and isn't it just a reg edit away? ;-)

[23:00:50]

wagnerrp:

justinh: sure, someone gets a bit of malware on a system

[23:00:51]

justinh:

oh wait no.. licence keys. Meh

[23:00:52]

sphery:

any more, if the system is messed up, I'd rather re-install

[23:01:06]

wagnerrp:

you cant terminate it, because youre not admin

[23:01:13]

justinh:

eh?

[23:01:15]

sphery:

still, even $270 is cheap compared to most others

[23:01:16]

wagnerrp:

you cant remove execute permissions from the file to prevent it from running

[23:01:22]

justinh:

whoah

[23:01:25]

wagnerrp:

safemode is barely functional

[23:01:28]

sphery:

(for Win 7 Ultimate Full retail)

[23:01:43]

justinh:

even vista home lets you do that

[23:01:51]

sphery:

but really, if you're buying Win 7, you should buy it with a computer from a vendor getting the $20 licenses

[23:01:56]

sphery:

so you pay at most $30

[23:02:08]

sphery:

i.e. from Dell or HP or Alienware or VoodooPC or ...

[23:02:49]

sphery:

building your own system--even if you buy an OEM-licensed version of Windows--you're just paying more for the privilege

[23:03:45]

sphery:

and if the system runs Windows, anyway, it's not like it's an important system where you must choose every piece of hardware in it

[23:03:52]

sphery:

:)

[23:04:05]

justinh:

heh

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