Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Monday, December 28th, 2009, 00:06 UTC

[00:06:43]

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[00:10:02]

PiousMinion:

schedulesdirect costs $ ? Is there a free option for US viewers?

[00:12:24]

iamlindoro:

$20, and no

[00:12:28]

iamlindoro:

well worth it

[00:13:06]

PiousMinion:

Anything that costs money is out for me. :(

[00:13:24]

** PiousMinion is disabled. **

[00:14:38]

iamlindoro:

unfortunately, that's really your only option, but it's well worth it-- Myth isn't intended as a cot-saving measure

[00:15:01]

MTughan_:

cot-saving? :P

[00:15:10]

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[00:15:13]

PiousMinion:

Then why is it no cost?

[00:15:13]

iamlindoro:

cost saving, too

[00:15:30]

iamlindoro:

PiousMinion, Myth is no cost because it's open source, but it's aim isn't to save you money

[00:15:51]

iamlindoro:

it's aim is to be the most flexible DVR software available

[00:16:23]

PiousMinion:

requiring users to pay a third party isn't exactly flexible.

[00:16:49]

iamlindoro:

Sorry you feel that way-- if there was a free method to get listings that didn't involve theft, we would do it

[00:16:56]

cesman:

oh boy...

[00:16:57]

iamlindoro:

but in the US, listings data costs money

[00:17:05]

cesman:

not this old grip again...

[00:17:34]

PiousMinion:

Is there a known, yet usupported way, that does involve "theft" ?

[00:17:44]

iamlindoro:

no, and such discussion is unwelcome here

[00:17:51]

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[00:17:51]

iamlindoro:

persist and you won't be welcome either

[00:18:21]

PiousMinion:

I understand that fully. I simply inquired upon a yes or no. :)

[00:18:31]

freakwent2:

I thought Australia was the only nation on earth with this problem.

[00:18:53]

squish102:

can you not get 2 days off the cable or over the air?

[00:19:08]

iamlindoro:

squish102, Generally speaking in the US, no

[00:19:09]

freakwent2:

2 days isn't enough for everyeon.

[00:19:17]

iamlindoro:

or did you mean .au?

[00:19:30]

freakwent2:

I think we can here in au

[00:19:36]

PiousMinion:

squish102: I will be using my tuner on channel 3 with an IR blaster to my cable box. I don't think that method would work for listings. :(

[00:19:57]

iamlindoro:

It wouldn't. getting usable EIT data in the US is the exception, not the rule, anyway

[00:20:35]

squish102:

but really $20 for a year is not bad investment

[00:20:44]

iamlindoro:

agreed

[00:20:51]

squish102:

just skip the mcdonalds twice

[00:21:06]

PiousMinion:

squish102: it is if you are disabled struggling to survive.

[00:21:52]

iamlindoro:

PiousMinion, The expenditure on hardware, electricity, time, broadband, etc. to build a myth system dwarfs the listings cost

[00:21:53]

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[00:22:02]

iamlindoro:

if you're struggling to survive, save yourself all of those costs too

[00:22:09]

freakwent2:

I dabble in philosophy, please don't take offence, but if I was disabledm struggling to survive I wouldn't bother owning a telly at all.

[00:22:34]

PiousMinion:

iamlindoro: those things I am lucky to have provided... for now.

[00:22:40]

freakwent2:

PiousMinion what hardware do you have?

[00:22:44]

freakwent2:

for the mythbox?

[00:23:07]

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[00:23:15]

PiousMinion:

freakwent2: celeron-D, 512mb ram, 80g hdd, wintv card.

[00:23:41]

freakwent2:

My P4 2.4GHz wasn't enough to watch TV on, I don't think your box will do it.

[00:23:57]

PiousMinion:

freakwent2: I can watch tv on it now no problem.

[00:24:32]

iamlindoro:

Sorry to say that people who can afford the hardware, electricity, broadband, and cable costs who balk at paying for the listings, especially when they've gotten all of Myth for free... well, it just never rings quite true to me

[00:24:44]

iamlindoro:

and if it is true, you have my sympathy... but a myth box is a luxury, not a right

[00:25:09]

iamlindoro:

if you can't afford to run it properly, I feel for you... but it doesn't change the fact that you've got to pay for listings

[00:25:20]

iamlindoro:

and no amount of discussion will change that

[00:25:42]

PiousMinion:

iamlindoro: almost everything computer related I have has been donated for helping others repir their stuff. I have a family member that is providing some things, but I have no income. I'm not looking for pity, but don't go assuming things are exactly as you imagine.

[00:25:49]

freakwent2:

I dunno what was wrong with mine then :(

[00:26:13]

iamlindoro:

PiousMinion, I'm just telling you that the discussion is a dead end-- no matter how much you split hairs, the listings will still be $20 for a year

[00:26:32]

iamlindoro:

and I'm genuinely sympathetic if you can't afford it, but that, as they say, is that

[00:26:40]

PiousMinion:

iamlindoro: I'm not splitting hairs. You are making claims you are not informed enough to make and I'm simply clarifying my case.

[00:27:11]

iamlindoro:

What claims am I making? I said it never sounds true, but if it is, it still doesn't change matters

[00:27:26]

iamlindoro:

And thus attempting to head off what will be a fruitless discussion

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[00:27:50]

iamlindoro:

Things of value cost money. Some people have it, some people don't. I'm sorry if you don't.

[00:27:56]

PiousMinion:

I agree it doesn't change matters and that fact is just that. As I said, I'm only clarifying my own case against assumptions.

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[00:28:03]

** iamlindoro yawns **

[00:29:31]

PiousMinion:

You assume things are not as I claim and you assume the intent of my clarification is to push the subject of listings. Both assumptions are wrong. Otherwise we agree.

[00:30:03]

iamlindoro:

I make no such assumption. I suggest you drop the topic

[00:30:30]

PiousMinion:

I've already won the arguement. Topic is now dead.... and so is my interest in mythtv.

[00:30:35]

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[00:30:42]

iamlindoro:

whatever will we do without him

[00:31:42]

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[00:32:11]

Az|too:

having a heck of a time, tvtime, xawtv, mplayer, etc all pick up the tv composite video, I can not get mythtv to even show static and my google-fu is failing me

[00:32:23]

Az|too:

http://paste.pocoo.org/show/160038/

[00:32:36]

justinh:

and dat is becuzz miffyteevee is no point & click applicashion

[00:32:36]

Az|too:

any other information you need, please let me know

[00:33:21]

justinh:

methinks it is not us who is lacking information ;-)

[00:33:28]

justinh:

s/is/are/

[00:34:03]

Az|too:

powers of observation are astounding, had I the information I would not be looking for it would I?

[00:34:22]

justinh:

you could try in the official docs

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[00:34:31]

Dagmar:

Did you read the installation guide? Did you bind you channel source to _only_ the composite input in mythtv-setup?

[00:34:40]

justinh:

the part about going through mythtv-setup step by step, in order..

[00:35:11]

justinh:

well that part is actually more implied, and assumes a modicum of intelligence

[00:36:12]

justinh:

so, let's start at the beginning. rather than pasting the output of lspci or whatever describe what steps you've taken so far, and you should probably say what kind of stuff is being reported in mythbackend's log when you try to watch tv

[00:36:18]

Az|too:

Dagmar, I thought I had, let me double check to see if how I set it is the same as the guide says

[00:38:04]

Az|too:

a moment justdave

[00:38:05]

Dagmar:

Yeah it helps if you actually read the directions before you start expecting it to work

[00:38:06]

justinh:

see, by not actually describing the symptoms you're seeing you've left people to assume all kinds of retarded things have been going on

[00:38:09]

Az|too:

a moment justinh

[00:38:39]

justinh:

"it no worky" is kind of a wide field ;-)

[00:39:29]

justinh:

and I apologise on behalf of everybody who might chip in (including myself) & seems a little snippy.. we get an awful lot of this

[00:39:41]

Dagmar:

We get it almost hourly

[00:40:14]

justinh:

I can just about remember what it felt like to be a new tv card user

[00:40:35]

justinh:

you just about (unrealistically) expect it to y'know.. just do WTF it says on the box!

[00:40:58]

wagnerrp:

i can remember when there was still some difficulty getting the ivtv cards working

[00:40:58]

Dagmar:

Then reality decends and mocks you. :)

[00:41:26]

justinh:

Dagmar: heheh many an hour/day wasted trying to cap VHS to PC with in sync audio. Bah

[00:41:58]

justinh:

and me just thinking "FFS, Joe on the forums reckons his 2Ghz CPU can do it realtime..."

[00:42:13]

justinh:

and naively assuming mine would too. heheh

[00:42:40]

Az|too:

justinh, is this the output you are looking for? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/160040/

[00:43:00]

justinh:

nope.

[00:43:06]

wagnerrp:

then you lose your youthful innocence, and stab yourself for buying a P4

[00:43:08]

justinh:

that's output from mythfrontend

[00:43:27]

justinh:

wagnerrp: or in my case curse yourself for being too cheap to buy Intel

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[00:43:45]

justinh:

Az|too: look for mythbackend's log

[00:43:47]

Dagmar:

Az|too: No debug output of any kind is going to help.

[00:43:59]

justinh:

generally /var/log/mythtv/mythbackend.log

[00:44:18]

Dibblah:

Nothing wrong with buying a P4.

[00:44:20]

justinh:

Dagmar: beg to differ. he's not got around to describing the failure mode yet

[00:44:22]

Dagmar:

Make sure you've set up the thing so that the only input that has a source bound to it is the composite input in mythtv-setup

[00:44:26]

Dagmar:

Until you've done that, nothing will work

[00:44:28]

Dagmar:

Nothing.

[00:44:33]

Dibblah:

... It's dual purpose, too. Serves as a spaceheater.

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[00:44:44]

justinh:

until he's got writable video storage FA is gonna happen either

[00:44:48]

justinh:

yada yada yada yada

[00:45:19]

justinh:

that & the plethora of traps noobs fall into, all of which are generally illuminated by seeing a backend log

[00:45:32]

Az|too:

/var/log/mythtv/mythbackend.log http://paste.pocoo.org/show/160041/

[00:46:03]

justinh:

wow. there's enough plain English error message in there to keep you going

[00:46:28]

Az|too:

looking now

[00:46:40]

Dagmar:

So, it's really cool when you say something multiple times and are ignored

[00:47:07]

Dagmar:

Use mythtv-setup to configure the thing or it won't work

[00:47:24]

Az|too:

Dagmar, not ignoring you, sorry if it seems so

[00:47:34]

justinh:

sigh

[00:47:52]

justinh:

as long as mythtv setup is as involved as it is now it'll never be suitable for simpletons

[00:48:42]

justinh:

just FYI those error messages probably do mean that stuff is as obviously wrong as they imply

[00:48:55]

justinh:

they're friendly like that

[00:49:57]

justinh:

if it was me, I'd made it say "woop woop E4326738126327687". Then make $user look it up. But then I'm a c***

[00:50:46]

justinh:

oh FFS. Obama urges air security review. Great. Expect strip searches before boarding

[00:51:39]

wagnerrp:

how else would you find something hidden in their underwear

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wagnerrp:

new for purchase, jock straps and pasties for going through airport security! get 'em while theyre hot!

[00:52:49]

justinh:

look at it this way, less people flying makes it easier for them to hit CO2 targets

[00:53:55]

justinh:

I think flying has stopped being exciting. Bring back the thrill by letting us wonder if we'll be blown up

[00:57:10]

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[00:58:24]

justinh:

aaanyway.. nobody comes in here to be patronised. they can just find that in the backend logs if only they looked ;-)

[00:59:09]

Az|too:

my apoligies, I will have to return to this, my family has decided that this is the time to kill one another. thank you for directions so far

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[01:00:54]

|Arpman|:

Anyone know the command line to use vlc instead of the Internal player for dvd.iso?

[01:01:06]

Dagmar:

There isn't one.

[01:01:20]

wagnerrp:

are you wanting to do so because the internal player will no longer play ISOs?

[01:01:27]

justinh:

are you using storage groups by any chance?

[01:01:49]

|Arpman|:

no storage groups – fixed that last nigh t-> thanks wagnerrp

[01:01:50]

** justinh hands Az|too his spare cattleprod **

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AndyCap:

justinh: is that a cattleprod or a ram ejaculator?

[01:03:20]

wagnerrp:

i dont even want to know what that is

[01:03:34]

|Arpman|:

no – the internal player does not display properly some of the video – think its an aspect ratio problem – vlc work fine though – so I thought id use it instead – just need to figure out the command line to not use X and quit nicely

[01:04:33]

wagnerrp:

to not use X? you mean to go full screen?

[01:04:48]

wagnerrp:

the only reason VLC would not be using X would be if it were streaming, or transcoding

[01:05:09]

|Arpman|:

so far I have "vlc %s vlc://quit -f" in the file extionsions setup for iso

[01:06:32]

|Arpman|:

it works but the scrren flashes to desktop before mythtv frontend takes control...

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[01:07:12]

Dagmar:

Some people, possibly pessimists, would say that's actually a sign that it _doesn't_ work

[01:07:19]

Dagmar:

How about you try that command from an xterm

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|Arpman|:

could try that

[01:11:32]

wagnerrp:

bleh... here i am trying to trace down the problem in some python app in cygwin that uses ssh

[01:11:38]

wagnerrp:

and here... ssh doesnt even exist

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[01:12:18]

MTughan_:

We've attempted to transcode a program here, but it's errored out. The box is running MythTV 0.22. Where can I see what went wrong?

[01:12:42]

wagnerrp:

the backend logs

[01:13:01]

MTughan_:

Which are where?

[01:13:13]

wagnerrp:

if they exist, they will be somewhere in /var/log

[01:13:35]

wagnerrp:

distros like to put them in /var/log/mythtv/

[01:13:36]

MTughan_:

Thanks.

[01:13:56]

wagnerrp:

alternatively, you can pull the jobid for the transcode out of the database

[01:14:05]

wagnerrp:

and try running mythtranscode from the command line

[01:14:15]

wagnerrp:

with additional verbosity

[01:15:59]

MTughan_:

How would I get the job ID?

[01:16:11]

wagnerrp:

from the database

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[01:16:31]

MTughan_:

Yes, you said that already.

[01:16:38]

wagnerrp:

thats left as an exercise to the user, if you cant figure that out, youre probably best off not tinkering around in the database

[01:17:01]

MTughan_:

I know SQL, I just don't know what table or column.

[01:17:27]

wagnerrp:

its pretty self explanatory

[01:17:50]

|Arpman|:

use phpmyadmin to help you out

[01:17:52]

MTughan_:

Anyway, it probably doesn't matter. mythbackend.log said to check that recording profiles were set.

[01:17:55]

wagnerrp:

youre wanting to pull the job id from something in myth's jobqueue

[01:18:15]

wagnerrp:

jobqueue table would be a good place to start

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[01:33:20]

BobLfoot:

mythtv is showing two tuners in system status on the frontend – yet I configured only one card in the backend. Do i ahve a second tuner I can access somehow?

[01:33:46]

elmojo:

iamlindoro: I was really hoping you'd win that argument earlier :)

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iamlindoro:

elmojo, Alas, when only one person is arguing, only one can win ;)

[01:55:23]

wagnerrp:

often, when only one person is arguing, theyve already lost

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Dagmar:

...or they're off they're meds.

[01:56:37]

Dagmar:

Generally it's the meds

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[02:09:44]

MTughan_:

Can MythTV output 5.1 audio over optical, through something like Dolby Digital?

[02:10:29]

Dagmar:

Generally, sort of

[02:10:35]

Dagmar:

Thers

[02:10:40]

Dagmar:

There's patents in the way

[02:10:54]

MTughan_:

Ignoring Dolby then?

[02:13:34]

MTughan_:

If need be, we can go to 5.1 analog, but optical would be easier for us.

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[02:39:26]

iamlindoro:

MTughan_, it's possible to output both AC-3 and DTS

[02:40:22]

k_ross:

do you mean something like Dolby Digital Live, that creates AC-3 encoded audio on the fly? if so, no. if you mean just passing already encoded AC-3 or DTS audio from content that already has it, then yes.

[02:40:58]

iamlindoro:

Myth *can* output AC-3 audio on the fly in trunk

[02:41:44]

k_ross:

hmm, didn't know that

[02:41:49]

k_ross:

interesting

[02:42:16]

MTughan_:

I'm reading over the "Configuring Digital Audio" article in the MythTV wiki now.

[02:42:38]

MTughan_:

I've enabled digital output and AC-3/DTS passthrough so far, but haven't been able to test it yet.

[02:42:53]

k_ross:

if you just want to use optical to route audio from myth into your home theater receiver, then there's no problem

[02:43:23]

MTughan_:

Any special configuration required there?

[02:44:04]

MTughan_:

All I've done is disable the internal mixer, enable the passthroughs, and set the ALSA device.

[02:44:24]

k_ross:

configure ALSA so the default output goes to optical

[02:44:30]

k_ross:

tell myth to passthrough ac3 and dts

[02:44:49]

k_ross:

works for me

[02:45:15]

MTughan_:

I'll be able to confirm that it works for me in about 15 minutes or so. My sister gets whiny any time we turn off Harry Potter, which is playing ATM.

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[02:48:03]

crankharder:

anyone know if apple products, appletv, frontrow play nice with mythbackend, and/or mythbackend can be configured to support one of those frontends?

[02:49:53]

crankharder:

...really only interested in watching recorded programs, liveTV isn't necessary

[02:50:23]

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[02:53:23]

k_ross:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Installing_MythFrontend_on_an_AppleTV

[02:57:26]

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[02:57:28]

crankharder:

It'd be nice if I could just transcode to a format that Apple (e.g., quicktime) understands

[02:58:17]

k_ross:

OTA recording are mpeg2. pretty standard

[02:58:31]

Dagmar:

I'm pretty sure the device understands mpeg just fine

[02:58:58]

k_ross:

HD-PVR is h.264 of course. but you didn't mention that

[02:58:59]

crankharder:

hmm, so just map the drive somehow

[02:59:09]

k_ross:

or use UPnP

[02:59:17]

crankharder:

good to know, but this is normal cable, non-HD

[02:59:27]

Dagmar:

uPnP is a little odd, but it generally works "everywhere"

[03:00:05]

k_ross:

you might want to use the mythrename script to create human readable symlinks to the recording files

[03:00:20]

crankharder:

i think the big problem will be the mythbackend stores the files without show/name info in the filename, which AppleTV would use since the files aren't tagged

[03:00:35]

crankharder:

so i'll have no idea what file is what, when it was recorded, etc

[03:00:48]

k_ross:

hence the mythrename script

[03:00:51]

crankharder:

k_ross: or that :)

[03:00:58]

crankharder:

where's this script

[03:01:08]

Dagmar:

Have ya looked in contrib?

[03:01:18]

Dagmar:

The contrib directory in the source package

[03:01:43]

crankharder:

k, i'll check it out

[03:04:33]

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[03:04:46]

crankharder:

hmm, so just set the script to run w/ cron and be done w/ it?

[03:05:22]

k_ross:

yeah

[03:06:56]

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[03:07:28]

wagnerrp:

is there any standardized format for video metadata?

[03:08:15]

iamlindoro:

closest thing out there might be something like an NFO file, but even that is far from standardized

[03:08:31]

wagnerrp:

and thats only standard among certain circles

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[03:08:53]

iamlindoro:

yup

[03:10:03]

wagnerrp:

it always amuses me when someone asks me how to open a file when 'windows information viewer' (or whatever that thing is that is mapped to .nfo) cannot open the file

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[04:43:53]

DouglasK:

Question: do videos stored in the Videos plugin of MythTV get shared out via uPNP?

[04:44:11]

wagnerrp:

sort of

[04:44:34]

wagnerrp:

if the upnp server is active, it will share content in the directories listed by the MythVideo plugin

[04:44:36]

DouglasK:

Ok ....

[04:44:48]

wagnerrp:

however it maintains its own list of content, updated every 30 minutes

[04:45:01]

wagnerrp:

it does not work of the mythvideo media list

[04:45:43]

DouglasK:

Ok. And the directory is specified in the backend settings?

[04:46:38]

wagnerrp:

the directory is defined in frontend mythvideo settings

[04:47:03]

wagnerrp:

i dont know off hand what the UPNP server's behavior is if youre using storage groups

[04:48:23]

DouglasK:

wagnerrp, perfect. I think I missed setting the folder... or I've put videos in the wrong folder.

[04:48:51]

DouglasK:

I appreciate the help. I try not to ask until I've spent some time on google or RTFM'ing.

[04:50:58]

wagnerrp:

are you running a frontend on the backend operating as the upnp server?

[04:51:36]

wagnerrp:

the old database setting was a machine specific setting

[04:51:50]

wagnerrp:

you would have to tell mythvideo on that specific machine where to find the content

[04:51:57]

DouglasK:

Yes, I am.

[04:52:08]

wagnerrp:

meaning if you have mythvideo working on some remote frontend, it will have no effect on the upnp server

[04:52:14]

DouglasK:

right now the frontend and backend are on the same box until I can afford a new laptop.

[04:52:19]

DouglasK:

Got it.

[04:53:12]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: did the upnp stuff ever get updated to use storage groups?

[05:01:14]

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[05:18:15]

iamlindoro:

wagnerrp, nope

[05:33:50]

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[05:42:46]

wagnerrp:

well that was fun

[05:43:12]

wagnerrp:

in a no-death video game... you get so many respawns, and you cannot choose your save points

[05:43:33]

wagnerrp:

im getting swarmed, and the game glitches and i get stuck with a pistol

[05:47:18]

Dagmar:

CLICK HARDAR

[05:47:40]

wagnerrp:

only goes so far when you have about 40 things jumping at you and a 12 round clip

[05:48:02]

Dagmar:

Okay, so use the time slow thingie and bayonet everyone

[05:48:03]

Dagmar:

;)

[05:48:20]

wagnerrp:

would have to pistol whip

[05:48:42]

Dagmar:

L4D?

[05:48:52]

wagnerrp:

shadowgrounds

[05:48:57]

Dagmar:

Oh. No idea then

[05:49:04]

wagnerrp:

(technically there is no pistol whip or bayonet)

[05:49:22]

wagnerrp:

top-down shooter

[05:50:14]

wagnerrp:

that and its sequel were up for $4 on steam

[05:52:42]

wagnerrp:

valve has discovered you sell a lot more if you just reach that impulse buying limit

[05:54:05]

wagnerrp:

although to be honest, im wondering if they really make much money off those things

[05:54:19]

wagnerrp:

or if it more serves to keep people on the PC instead of moving to consoles

[05:57:02]

iamlindoro:

Don't expect valve cares one way or another, their games all go to consoles too

[05:57:23]

iamlindoro:

suspect even the casual games are making enough to make distributing them worthwhile

[05:57:25]

wagnerrp:

hardly

[05:57:34]

iamlindoro:

ummm... except yes?

[05:57:50]

wagnerrp:

their xbox version is little more than a few weeks of work and a recompile

[05:57:51]

iamlindoro:

What valve game in the last five years hasn't ended up on the consoles?

[05:57:57]

wagnerrp:

and they farm out the PS3 to an outside company

[05:58:06]

iamlindoro:

So?

[05:58:56]

wagnerrp:

they have little invested in either, they develop for the PC

[05:59:34]

iamlindoro:

valve sells the vast majority of their games for consoles, not PC

[05:59:49]

iamlindoro:

So I expect they care a great deal about their console business

[06:00:17]

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[06:01:40]

wagnerrp:

well at least last year, valve was claiming their PC sales were far higher than their console sales

[06:01:46]

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[06:01:53]

wagnerrp:

and they have been very vocal in saying the ps3 is too hard to develop for

[06:02:40]

vn:

hi, I heard I could watch internet TV channels on mythtv and I've been able to do it in the past, just dont remember how, can someone enlighten me plz?

[06:03:02]

wagnerrp:

vn: there are several third party plugins for watching internet video

[06:03:05]

wagnerrp:

nothing official yet

[06:03:33]

vn:

ok so it might have been integrated in one of those 3242452 mythtv-based distro I tested

[06:03:43]

wagnerrp:

theyre all in various levels of abandonment, i dont know if any are currently working with 0.22-fixes

[06:04:03]

iamlindoro:

none but the unreleased one

[06:04:10]

wagnerrp:

mythtv *can* use a vary specific blend of IPTV, if thats what youre referring to

[06:04:48]

wagnerrp:

specifically, RTSP streams defined by an m3u file

[06:05:07]

wagnerrp:

added for some IPTV provider in france

[06:05:46]

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[06:06:30]

vn:

ok! well theres something I remember, I could arrange them by country and I had nearly 1k of them, even from dominican republic or canada

[06:06:34]

vn:

or costa rica

[06:07:44]

wagnerrp:

arrange what?

[06:08:24]

vn:

the internet TV channels

[06:11:19]

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[06:11:30]

iamlindoro:

Without much more specific information, it's going to be impossible to have any iea what you are talking about

[06:11:55]

iamlindoro:

s/iea/idea/

[06:12:00]

vn:

Yeah I know..thanks anyway :)

[06:12:05]

wagnerrp:

theres also miro, but thats offline download... not sure if i would clump that in with internet tv

[06:12:42]

vn:

There are so many possibilities nowadays..I don't know what to choose...boxee, mythtv, xbmc, moovida..

[06:12:56]

iamlindoro:

only one of those is a DVR

[06:13:18]

vn:

:]

[06:19:49]

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[06:22:16]

waxhead:

any suggestions for what to fix with recordings not being found?

[06:22:46]

wagnerrp:

make sure the referenced files are there?

[06:22:54]

wagnerrp:

run the orphan removal script

[06:23:13]

waxhead:

wagnerrp, something in the config isn't right, but I can't see it..

[06:25:21]

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[06:25:27]

waxhead:

the logs shows that it's recording, but now what the path is

[06:25:54]

____jon:

hi i just bought a hvr1250 and i dont know how to set it up, its setup as a dvb tuner

[06:26:18]

____jon:

i cant find anything on google on how to set it up,im using the dvb driver but i cant find any channels, i get a no signal message

[06:26:35]

wagnerrp:

____jon: do you have a '/dev/dvb/adapter0'?

[06:26:49]

____jon:

ya its a directory

[06:27:00]

____jon:

demux0 dvr0 frontend0 net0

[06:27:00]

wagnerrp:

and you added the card in mythtv as a dvb card?

[06:27:03]

____jon:

is the contents

[06:27:06]

____jon:

ya

[06:27:17]

wagnerrp:

and you set up a channel source?

[06:27:31]

____jon:

tried to but i can find any channels in the channel scan

[06:27:41]

wagnerrp:

did you set up a channel source?

[06:27:47]

____jon:

the guide portion?

[06:27:54]

wagnerrp:

the third option

[06:27:59]

____jon:

lemme go check

[06:28:24]

____jon:

yes

[06:28:32]

____jon:

i have a guide configured and working

[06:28:41]

____jon:

its under video sources on my setup

[06:28:57]

wagnerrp:

and youve bound that channel source to the tuner input on that card?

[06:29:04]

____jon:

yes

[06:29:14]

____jon:

in input connections

[06:29:26]

wagnerrp:

are you scanning cable or broadcast?

[06:29:34]

____jon:

i tried them all, none of them worked

[06:29:38]

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[06:29:59]

wagnerrp:

you either want to do 8vsb with us-bcast, or 256qam with us-cable

[06:30:22]

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[06:31:16]

____jon:

atsc right?

[06:31:24]

wagnerrp:

are you scanning cable or broadcast?

[06:31:32]

____jon:

right now broadcast

[06:31:43]

wagnerrp:

8vsb and us-bcast

[06:31:45]

____jon:

im getting a timed out no signal

[06:31:58]

wagnerrp:

try scanning using the dvbutils package

[06:32:20]

waxhead:

the file can't be found on the file system at all

[06:32:26]

wagnerrp:

or plugging the antenna line into a tv with atsc tuner

[06:32:29]

waxhead:

so where it's recording to isn't set...

[06:32:36]

____jon:

how do i know which file to use?

[06:32:41]

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[06:32:45]

genoobie:

morning all

[06:32:51]

genoobie:

new to mythtv here

[06:33:07]

genoobie:

I'm about 1/2way through an xubuntu install

[06:33:22]

genoobie:

and I hope to have mythtv installed shortly afterwares

[06:33:28]

genoobie:

afterwards

[06:33:39]

____jon:

i got an att uverse vip1200 and i live in the bay area, is there a website which tells you what file to use with dvbscan?

[06:34:04]

wagnerrp:

wait... how do you have things hooked together

[06:34:16]

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[06:34:21]

wagnerrp:

the hvr-1250 will only work plugged directly into the antenna, or directly into the cable line

[06:34:26]

wagnerrp:

it will NOT work with u-verse

[06:34:27]

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[06:34:34]

____jon:

oh

[06:34:45]

wagnerrp:

it works as a tuner

[06:34:58]

wagnerrp:

if you want to capture off your STB, you need a capture card

[06:35:27]

____jon:

my intention is to capture hdtv, where would i start?

[06:36:00]

____jon:

i cant find any capture cards with component in

[06:36:00]

wagnerrp:

plug your card into an antenna

[06:36:08]

wagnerrp:

there are no 'cards'

[06:36:22]

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[06:36:24]

wagnerrp:

the only component capture device that works with mythtv is the HDPVR

[06:36:28]

wagnerrp:

currently out of stock everywhere

[06:36:30]

____jon:

so i cant use the hdtv package i have with att?

[06:36:43]

wagnerrp:

only with an HDPVR

[06:36:54]

wagnerrp:

or you can pick up any IVTV card, and do standard definition capture

[06:37:30]

____jon:

whats the model number on the hdpvr?

[06:37:36]

wagnerrp:

'HDPVR'

[06:38:21]

____jon:

its external?

[06:38:27]

wagnerrp:

usb attached

[06:43:48]

whiteley_:

how do I turn on closed captions?

[06:44:22]

abqjp:

____jon: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/HDPVR

[06:44:45]

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[06:44:53]

[R]:

ah crap

[06:44:56]

[R]:

i totally jsut trashed my settings table

[06:45:06]

abqjp:

wagnerrp: you deserve a medal for all the support you give to newbies.

[06:45:15]

wagnerrp:

[R]: no recent backup?

[06:45:24]

whiteley_:

when I hit T, it says 'no captions'. However, when I watch the same show with hdhomerun_config_gui + vlc, I can turn on the captions.

[06:45:35]

wagnerrp:

abqjp: youve obviously never seen sphery on the mailing list

[06:45:49]

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[06:45:49]

[R]:

wagnerrp: i'm looking but i dont see

[06:46:28]

waxhead:

[R], welcome to the club! :)

[06:46:44]

[R]:

lol

[06:46:48]

wagnerrp:

waxhead: do you have mythweb set up?

[06:46:57]

waxhead:

wagnerrp, not yet

[06:47:17]

abqjp:

wagnerrp: heh, yes I have. sphery is also a hero!

[06:47:19]

waxhead:

I did a clean installed of mythbuntu and did a restore of a 0.21 db to 0.22

[06:47:20]

wagnerrp:

open up 'mysql mythconverg' from the terminal

[06:47:23]

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[06:47:37]

waxhead:

wagnerrp, I'm looking throught he settings table currently

[06:48:30]

[R]:

i really need to not screw with my db before making a backup

[06:48:36]

wagnerrp:

run 'select chanid,starttime,title,filesize from recorded;'

[06:48:54]

wagnerrp:

see if you get a lot of entries with a '0' or 'NULL' in the last spot

[06:49:16]

wagnerrp:

if you do, do those match up with the titles giving you issues?

[06:50:31]

waxhead:

ok.. jus checking the freakin wireless is a nightmare...

[06:52:11]

wagnerrp:

thats why myth over wireless is highly recommended against

[06:52:29]

waxhead:

wagnerrp, looks like a lot of the live tv stuff is in there too

[06:52:33]

DouglasK:

waxhead, you need luck and a totally solid wireless connection to do it wireless. I've done it, but it was definitely hit and miss ... right down to the weather.

[06:53:03]

wagnerrp:

waxhead: yeah, it will be... any files of '0' size?

[06:53:19]

waxhead:

wagnerrp, yep, plenty

[06:53:31]

wagnerrp:

oh wow... 3.8GB on a 85min recording (post clipping)

[06:53:33]

wagnerrp:

thats pathetic

[06:53:43]

wagnerrp:

waxhead: those zero byte recordings are failed recordings

[06:53:52]

waxhead:

I agree with the wireless.. just can't be bothered cabling things up just yet

[06:53:57]

wagnerrp:

check your backend logs to figure out why they are failing

[06:54:32]

waxhead:

wagnerrp, that's fine, but the logs don't show that the recording is failing.. nor can I see what path it wants to put the files...

[06:55:32]

wagnerrp:

waxhead: myth will be recording to the folders you told it to in mythtv-setup, storage group setup

[06:56:05]

waxhead:

wagnerrp, it's not.. that's the frustrating thing here.. so I'm wondering if restoring the old DB has caused problems

[06:56:16]

waxhead:

Default is setup to point to the right place

[06:56:44]

waxhead:

mythtv has all the permissionsa nd rights to the directory and the user running the process is a member of the mythtv group

[06:57:37]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I had to turn in my medal because of some up-and-coming MythTV support tech--Raymond something... He definitely deserves it more than me, lately.

[07:00:12]

wagnerrp:

that a reference to the recommendations for that mythmediamonitor thing?

[07:03:25]

[R]:

wagnerrp: so i did a backup of my db... then wiped it all... ran mythtv-setup to generate a new settings table... then i wiped out everything but the setting table... then copied everyhting from my backup to the new db... and now im' redoing the settings... not too bad

[07:03:58]

wagnerrp:

sounds painful

[07:04:09]

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[07:04:16]

[R]:

better than having to wipe the db completley and start over

[07:04:18]

wagnerrp:

you deleted the settings line in your backup file so it didnt overwrite the new settings?

[07:04:34]

wagnerrp:

and the 'create database' stuff?

[07:04:48]

[R]:

i was using phpmyadmin, so when i did an export... i exported everyhting but the settings table

[07:05:25]

sphery:

wagnerrp: just saying that you (on the list + here) have done /much/ more user support than me in recent months.

[07:05:54]

[R]:

all i lost was the 'General' page in mythtv-setup

[07:05:59]

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[07:06:08]

[R]:

and my mythwelcome settings and my frontend settings

[07:06:43]

wagnerrp:

seems i need to fix my recording export script... its reporting '-0.000350819334116 seconds remaining'

[07:08:04]

wagnerrp:

and its failing to insert into the database

[07:08:38]

[R]:

whats the spdif thing

[07:08:41]

[R]:

iec597?

[07:09:13]

[R]:

958

[07:09:13]

[R]:

close

[07:13:17]

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[07:13:28]

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[07:13:28]

sphery:

wagnerrp: that sounds like the type of values you'd see in a Windows progress dialog

[07:14:10]

wagnerrp:

yeah, im trying to do a 16-second rolling average of the transfer rate

[07:14:16]

wagnerrp:

and i obviously boogered something somewhere

[07:15:15]

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[07:16:14]

[R]:

how's the "Display live preview of recordings"

[07:16:18]

[R]:

does it work well?

[07:16:26]

[R]:

if i select "Use HW acceleration"... will it use vdpau?

[07:16:29]

wagnerrp:

no

[07:16:46]

wagnerrp:

s/work well/exist/

[07:17:00]

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[07:17:13]

wagnerrp:

the playback widget has not been written yet

[07:17:16]

[R]:

oh

[07:17:20]

[R]:

so its a dead setting?

[07:17:21]

wagnerrp:

so the capacity no longer exists in 0.22

[07:17:45]

wagnerrp:

sort of...

[07:18:05]

wagnerrp:

its a 'not currently available' capacity

[07:18:14]

wagnerrp:

but its a setting that will never be of use again

[07:18:33]

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[07:18:35]

wagnerrp:

when it does get written, its use will be up to the theme, not the user

[07:18:38]

sphery:

sounded like the consensus was to keep that setting

[07:18:41]

wagnerrp:

(or at least that was the plan)

[07:18:45]

wagnerrp:

or i could be wrong

[07:18:56]

sphery:

disabled it would use the preview pixmap and enabled the video playback

[07:19:08]

sphery:

(I'd rather just get rid of it)

[07:19:10]

wagnerrp:

so the same old behavior?

[07:19:13]

sphery:

yeah

[07:19:52]

sphery:

but it's better to keep that one than the font size mess (which didn't do what people thought it did) or the program guide # of channels/timeslots stuff

[07:19:53]

[R]:

'failed to configure plugin mythvideo'

[07:19:54]

[R]:

that's not good

[07:20:33]

[R]:

ah crap

[07:20:42]

[R]:

it tried to upgrade the db, and that failed cuz the db was already upgraded

[07:20:46]

sphery:

heh, I hear there's a script that can replace mythvideo

[07:20:51]

waxhead:

oh.. what if I dropped the settings table could I run-mythset up and it would recreate it?

[07:21:06]

sphery:

basically wraps up ragetv and imdb.pl and breaks all sorts of ToS :)

[07:21:11]

[R]:

waxhead: scroll up to what i said i wound up doing

[07:21:20]

waxhead:

that worked?

[07:21:22]

sphery:

wagnerrp: can't drop it

[07:21:22]

[R]:

sphery: and clultters up my recordings screen

[07:21:39]

sphery:

waxhead: what are you trying to do?

[07:21:43]

wagnerrp:

waxhead: ^^^

[07:22:08]

waxhead:

sphery, trying to get recordings working again

[07:22:13]

waxhead:

it's been a trial...

[07:22:22]

wagnerrp:

sphery: and to add insult to injury... it was in *cough* BASH

[07:22:24]

waxhead:

did a clean upgrade with mythbuntu with a clean install...

[07:22:42]

sphery:

and a full restore of a DB?

[07:22:42]

[R]:

ALTER TABLE videometadata CHANGE plot plot TEXT;

[07:22:45]

[R]:

how is that valid sql?

[07:22:51]

[R]:

am i missing something?

[07:22:55]

wagnerrp:

i mean sure, you can do a hell of a lot in bash if you want to, but why would you want to?

[07:23:02]

waxhead:

sphery, yep

[07:23:15]

sphery:

[R]: that's MySQL

[07:23:24]

[R]:

sphery: what is the point of the statement/

[07:23:25]

waxhead:

hm.. I think I have duplicates for the hostname...

[07:23:43]

sphery:

[R]: changes the column plot from some type to type TEXT

[07:23:43]

waxhead:

omg how many hostnames are there...

[07:23:59]

[R]:

but whats with the 'plot plot'

[07:24:14]

wagnerrp:

waxhead: there is one entry for every (needed) setting on every hostname

[07:24:23]

wagnerrp:

so you could see a single hostname used in there hundreds of times

[07:24:32]

wagnerrp:

for various different settings

[07:24:38]

waxhead:

wagnerrp, so I see.. and I think I've screwed up the setting then for my backend...

[07:24:54]

waxhead:

I could change the hostanem back to localhost.. those settings should be safe

[07:25:12]

sphery:

[R]: that changes the column name from plot to plot--required to give a new name when using that statement format for changing column type (even if the new name is the same as the old)

[07:25:18]

sphery:

it's MySQL...

[07:25:40]

[R]:

ah...

[07:26:02]

sphery:

I don't know if it's ANSI-standard, but it's the way they did it

[07:26:59]

sphery:

there's a different way of changing a column type, too, IIRC, but I don't remember if it has a name change involved

[07:27:41]

waxhead:

whats the config setting name that sets the path to the recordings directory?

[07:28:12]

[R]:

blah this isn't working

[07:28:14]

[R]:

gotta do it again

[07:28:15]

[R]:

:(

[07:28:55]

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[07:30:03]

sphery:

waxhead: just use mythtv-setup

[07:30:04]

[R]:

is there a way to trigger myth's internal db backup mechanism?

[07:30:29]

sphery:

after all, even if you knew "the config setting..." for that, you likely don't know all the data constraints on the values

[07:31:01]

sphery:

[R]: only by changing the DBSchemaVersion in mythtv, mythvideo, or mythmusic

[07:31:02]

Casper82:

sphery: in case you were wondering, the standard way (mysql, oracle) is ALTER TABLE <table> MODIFY <col> <type>

[07:31:09]

[R]:

sphery: :(

[07:31:11]

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[07:31:20]

sphery:

Casper82: ahhh... couldn't remember

[07:31:41]

sphery:

[R]: the plan is to make it automatic, but we need a lot more infrastructure for safety before them

[07:32:08]

waxhead:

sphery, so start again with a clean setup table?

[07:32:17]

[R]:

sphery: there should be a way to seelct something somewhere, so it does it manually

[07:32:18]

waxhead:

sphery, can I drop the table and start again?

[07:32:30]

sphery:

I'm actually toying with the idea of embedding MySQL in Myth before doing the auto-backup/auto-repair/auto-optimize/auto-analyze because it will make the maintenance stuff significantly easier and safer

[07:32:41]

sphery:

waxhead: can't drop the table

[07:33:03]

waxhead:

sphery, delete the data from it then?

[07:33:16]

[R]:

sphery: i've been hearing about embedded mysql for aw hile i thought

[07:33:20]

waxhead:

I'll do a backup and the delete * from settings, with that work?

[07:33:33]

waxhead:

why not use SQLite to do that?

[07:33:33]

sphery:

waxhead: definitely backup

[07:33:48]

waxhead:

ok... so I can delete the data from teh table then?

[07:34:02]

waxhead:

embed a db into myth that is?

[07:34:04]

sphery:

truncating settings won't hurt anything (provided you shut down all mythtv apps before doing so), but you'll have to reconfigure /everything/ from scratch

[07:34:17]

sphery:

waxhead: at that point, you're probably better off doing a partial restore

[07:34:29]

waxhead:

yike?? even the channels and tuners etc?

[07:34:32]

sphery:

waxhead: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Database_Backup_an . . . _of_a_backup

[07:34:35]

waxhead:

bugger that...

[07:34:51]

waxhead:

I think I have duplicates with the hostname though..

[07:34:58]

sphery:

channels and tuners would remain after truncating settings, but you'd have to reconfigure everything

[07:35:03]

waxhead:

I think that might be causing some of the problem

[07:35:10]

sphery:

you can't have dupes with the hostname because the key will prevent it

[07:35:14]

waxhead:

everything being just the settings

[07:35:28]

waxhead:

I think I can live with that...

[07:35:50]

waxhead:

doing settings again. I couldn't stand doing all the scheduling and turner stuff again

[07:35:52]

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[07:35:52]

sphery:

well, it's a not-supported config

[07:36:01]

waxhead:

ok time to eat...

[07:36:06]

waxhead:

back later

[07:36:15]

sphery:

waxhead: hold on a moment

[07:36:23]

sphery:

I'm thinking there are some settings you'll lose

[07:37:12]

sphery:

waxhead: ok, it will recreate everything for settings

[07:37:21]

sphery:

that's really the only table where that applies

[07:37:27]

sphery:

but it's still not receommended

[07:37:29]

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[07:37:38]

sphery:

at that point, you're /really/ better off doing a partial restore

[07:38:05]

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[07:38:15]

sphery:

waxhead: and no sqllite because of performance issues with some of Myth's queries (specifically the big, ugly scheduler query)

[07:38:46]

sphery:

plus 9 years of mysql-isms in the code :)

[07:40:17]

[R]:

is it just me

[07:40:23]

[R]:

or are the checkboxes really small and hard to see

[07:40:28]

wagnerrp:

sphery: well give me some heads up before you do so, since that will end up making another largish rewrite of the python bindings, considering how much there is canned now

[07:40:44]

wagnerrp:

although i *should* be able to do it without breaking the API

[07:40:58]

sphery:

heh, will do

[07:41:49]

sphery:

I have a feeling that's one that will cause a lot of argument from the devs (though I'll bet Nigel will love it--as many problems as they have with the Mac port build script thing and MySQL)

[07:42:17]

sphery:

[R]: are you using current 0.22-fixes or higher?

[07:42:21]

[R]:

sphery: yes

[07:42:22]

wagnerrp:

personally, i like being able to tinker in the settings if need be

[07:42:23]

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[07:42:29]

sphery:

if not, you need to change to the Windows Qt-style

[07:42:38]

sphery:

if so, they shouldn't be that small

[07:42:47]

wagnerrp:

although i imagine it wouldnt be difficult to make a mysql-like access to the embedded database

[07:42:57]

[R]:

they look tiny to me

[07:43:14]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah, I'm trying to decide which way to go on that

[07:43:28]

sphery:

if we have full DB access for any process, we lose 99% of the benefit

[07:43:30]

wagnerrp:

and possibly split off a program like mythjobqueue for such access if your backend isnt running for whatever reason

[07:43:53]

sphery:

my preference is canned queries that are compiled into C++ code, then a client sends a message and gets back the data they want

[07:44:25]

sphery:

there will be a dedicated data server as embedded mysql is single-process-use only

[07:44:34]

sphery:

it will be runnable on any host

[07:47:49]

wagnerrp:

it would be nice if that were a central location for all backend queries as well

[07:48:19]

wagnerrp:

all commands get routed through there, and the only thing you would connect to the individual backends for would be the bulk data sockets

[07:48:52]

sphery:

ah, yeah... I see what you mean

[07:48:58]

sphery:

I agree--that would be very nice

[07:49:30]

wagnerrp:

as it stands theres a messy mix of what goes to the MBE, and what goes to the BE that holds the data/tuner/whatever

[07:49:30]

[R]:

Warning: require(modules/_shared/tmpl/tmpl/header.php) [function.require]: failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /usr/share/mythtv/mythweb/modules/_shared/tmpl/_errors/fatal.php on line 23

[07:49:32]

[R]:

BLARG

[07:51:34]

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[07:52:24]

wagnerrp:

it might make sense to shove the scheduler and MFD into that as well

[07:52:43]

wagnerrp:

and you could end up with a fairly stripped down backend that handles tuners, file transfers, and jobs

[07:55:03]

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[07:58:56]

[R]:

ok, looks like i restored all my settings

[08:04:18]

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[08:12:42]

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[08:12:56]

mike:

does anyone do mythtv server on a usb stick?

[08:12:56]

mike is now known as Guest11611

[08:15:15]

[R]:

Guest11611: and the point is?

[08:15:22]

Guest11611 is now known as _angst_

[08:15:38]

_angst_:

my system's onboard raid is incompatible with grub

[08:15:48]

_angst_:

i'd rather have the basic system on the usb stick

[08:15:57]

[R]:

well its just like a hard drive

[08:15:57]

_angst_:

and then just mount my raid partition

[08:16:01]

[R]:

so theres no big deal...

[08:16:43]

_angst_:

plus i figure with upgrades i can just install straight to usb and keep my old system on a hot spare or something

[08:17:32]

k_ross:

don't use motherboard fake-raid. use linux software raid

[08:17:44]

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[08:17:47]

_angst_:

it's kind of too late to turn back

[08:18:03]

_angst_:

but yes, in the future i'll never use mobo fake-raid

[08:18:16]

_angst_:

it's one giant hassle

[08:18:23]

wagnerrp:

_angst_: im not sure of what use mythbackend on a usb-stick would provide

[08:18:41]

_angst_:

it would allow me to mount my fake-raid all the time

[08:18:55]

_angst_:

right now if there's a hard system crash that requires me to hold in the power button

[08:19:02]

_angst_:

i have to bust out a usb key with ubuntu live on it

[08:19:03]

wagnerrp:

why are you running fakeraid?

[08:19:13]

_angst_:

boot the system, and then click on the drive then do "sudo reboot"

[08:19:20]

_angst_:

and then grub is able to see my fake raid

[08:19:34]

k_ross:

how about just putting /boot on usb (or an old spare hard drive)

[08:19:46]

_angst_:

wagnerrp: didn't know any better when i did the install

[08:20:11]

wagnerrp:

i mean generally, you dont want to be doing recordings on raid

[08:20:22]

wagnerrp:

but if youve already got a system set up, its fairly hard to back out of it

[08:20:23]

_angst_:

just out of curiosity, does it cause skipping?

[08:20:30]

wagnerrp:

does what?

[08:20:36]

_angst_:

doing recordings to raid

[08:20:50]

wagnerrp:

fakeraid? only if the performance is so low that the disks cant keep up with a measily few MB/s

[08:21:08]

_angst_:

i'm just doing 720x480 satellite

[08:21:12]

_angst_:

8mbit

[08:21:17]

k_ross:

i do software raid5 without troubles

[08:21:23]

_angst_:

oh i'm doing raid mirror

[08:21:24]

wagnerrp:

s/few/one/

[08:21:46]

wagnerrp:

mirroring is fine for mythtv recordings

[08:21:50]

_angst_:

oh ok

[08:21:54]

wagnerrp:

you just generally dont want any form of striping

[08:21:55]

_angst_:

you thought i had raid 5/

[08:21:55]

_angst_:

?

[08:22:02]

wagnerrp:

0 or 5

[08:22:11]

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[08:22:18]

_angst_:

yeah, i just don't want to lose all my stuff if i have a drive die

[08:22:25]

_angst_:

i <3 my recordings that much

[08:22:47]

_angst_:

k_ross is it really as simple as copying the existing /boot to the usb key?

[08:22:48]

k_ross:

i know write performance on raid5 isn't the greatest, but it works for me. fwiw, i don't have the mysql database on their, that's on a seperate drive

[08:23:29]

k_ross:

i've never used fake raid, but i would think so.

[08:23:57]

k_ross:

and of course install-grub to the usb key, setting the root= kernel parameter to your raid array

[08:24:05]

_angst_:

root= doesn't work

[08:24:13]

_angst_:

my fake raid, if i let it boot

[08:24:21]

_angst_:

i get: GRUB loading stage2...

[08:24:22]

_angst_:

or something

[08:24:27]

_angst_:

can't get to a menu

[08:24:51]

_angst_:

however, if i boot ubuntu live and mount the partition, and reboot (not poweroff) it'll boot fine from the raid partition

[08:25:20]

_angst_:

i'm not really asking for support on that, i figure if i can move the mythtv system onto the usb key and just boot from the key, i won't have this problem, then upgrades will also be cleaner

[08:25:25]

_angst_:

and able to be done offline

[08:26:02]

k_ross:

no reason you can't. just make sure you don't put your mysql database on the usb key

[08:26:21]

_angst_:

good call

[08:26:36]

_angst_:

best 0.22fixes distro is?

[08:26:45]

_angst_:

mythbuntu? ubuntu 9.1?

[08:26:45]

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[08:27:09]

_angst_:

and which ones have vdpau compiled into them?

[08:27:26]

k_ross:

you might as well ask "vi or emacs"? "c++ or c#"?

[08:27:45]

_angst_:

lol, do they both have vdpau compiled in?

[08:28:20]

k_ross:

any distro that comes with a packages 0.22 will have vdpau compiled in

[08:28:50]

[R]:

now the stupid backend doesn't want to shutdown

[08:28:58]

[R]:

oh duh i'm stupid

[08:29:02]

[R]:

because its got a recording in 2 minutes

[08:29:06]

_angst_:

is 0.22 more stable than 0.21?

[08:29:07]

k_ross:

i use debian myself. some people on here use FC. some use Mint.

[08:29:24]

_angst_:

i'm running 0.21 now and i get occasional crashes

[08:29:56]

k_ross:

i don't know. maybe?

[08:30:16]

_angst_:

one last question and then i'll stop annoying... sometimes my commercial detection is way off

[08:30:23]

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[08:30:30]

_angst_:

it removes too much and i'm left with a stuttering mess of skipping

[08:30:43]

_angst_:

i have it on the most liberal setting. anything that can be done?

[08:30:51]

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[08:31:03]

k_ross:

try the strict setting

[08:31:22]

[R]:

i love it when myth does what it's supposed to... but i can't figure out that its actually doing that and think its broken

[08:31:49]

_angst_:

k_ross: it says "Disable if some commercials are not being detected"

[08:31:57]

_angst_:

are you sure/ i have the exact opposite problem

[08:32:04]

_angst_:

it's finding commercials that aren't there

[08:32:27]

_angst_:

my setting: Commercial Skip Method: All Available Methods; strict = off/disabled

[08:33:17]

k_ross:

i use strict=on and get nearly perfect results. ar you in the US?

[08:33:40]

k_ross:

it doesn't hurt to give it a try

[08:33:50]

_angst_:

yes i am

[08:34:21]

_angst_:

i'd almost rather err on the side of letting commercials through and watching them rather than stripping out the actual content

[08:34:33]

_angst_:

i think it's on the logo detection

[08:34:44]

_angst_:

i notice some channels like USA take out the logo at certain times

[08:34:52]

_angst_:

or they'll put a logo on during a commercial

[08:35:24]

k_ross:

turn the setting on, then rerun commercial flagging for a recording that was mis-flagged, and see if it improves things.

[08:35:47]

_angst_:

yeah, can't do that, but i'll try it going forward

[08:35:50]

k_ross:

commercial flagging is non-destructive to the recording. it doesn't actually remove anything

[08:35:55]

_angst_:

i had Comm Flag first then transcode second

[08:35:56]

_angst_:

oops

[08:36:03]

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[08:36:07]

k_ross:

ah ok

[08:36:13]

_angst_:

that's destructive :)

[08:37:37]

k_ross:

well i'm outta here. good night everyone

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[08:42:45]

AnNahar:

is there any way to watch netflix "watch now!" stuff in linux?

[08:43:14]

[R]:

AnNahar:

[08:43:15]

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[08:43:16]

[R]:

NO

[08:43:38]

AnNahar:

xris, what's up?

[08:43:44]

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[08:43:50]

wagnerrp:

netflix uses capacities of silverlight not available in moonlight

[08:44:02]

[R]:

wagnerrp: he does't like that answer

[08:44:13]

AnNahar:

[R], nah, i just didn't get the impression you knew what you were talking about

[08:44:15]

AnNahar:

and you never said that

[08:44:22]

[R]:

lol

[08:44:25]

wagnerrp:

and streaming will not be capable on linux until either moonlight can do that, or netflix moves to another format

[08:45:35]

[R]:

and it'll be a cold day in hell before microsoft gives up the drm code for moonlight

[08:45:48]

wagnerrp:

s/moon/silver/

[08:45:59]

[R]:

well i mean makes it available for moonlight

[08:46:05]

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[08:46:45]

[R]:

so my backend didn't wake up while i was gone... i think i fixed the shtudown scripts... and the moment of truth is in 12 minutes

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[08:53:51]

[R]:

wtf, why is freakin mythshutdown doing a reboot

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[10:12:55]

____jon:

how do i change audio tracks in mkv files in mythvideo?

[10:13:45]

[R]:

it shoudl be in the menu

[10:14:01]

____jon:

ahh

[10:19:17]

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[10:25:16]

ope:

hi

[10:25:49]

Finswimmer:

Hello, my pc starts automatically to record a show, but logs immediatly from mythwelceme into mythfrontend. But it should stay in mythwelcome.

[10:27:28]

Finswimmer:

Where can I adjust this?

[10:27:56]

ope:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Mythwelcome; is the doc outdated? My screen on settings looks different

[10:28:47]

[R]:

yes its outdated

[10:28:51]

[R]:

but the content is mostly right

[10:29:09]

[R]:

Finswimmer: its supposed to know that it started for a wakeup period

[10:29:13]

[R]:

Finswimmer: how did you shut it down?

[10:32:13]

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[10:32:38]

justinh:

mkv this, mkv that. stinking pirates

[10:33:51]

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[10:41:58]

Finswimmer:

[R]: With "Shutdown now". And it woke up automatically. I am using 0.22

[10:42:50]

[R]:

its only gonna do it propeprly if the backend uses mythshutdown

[10:42:52]

[R]:

to shutdown properly

[10:43:52]

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[10:44:20]

Finswimmer:

"Shutdown now" was from mythwelcome.

[10:44:38]

Finswimmer:

I try it with mythshutdown.

[10:45:36]

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[10:46:19]

oobe:

just out of curiosity what does the sleep function do found during playback M key

[10:46:36]

oobe:

does it invoke a script that shutsdown or hybernates

[10:50:06]

[R]:

it looks like it just goes back to the menu

[10:50:33]

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[10:51:34]

Finswimmer:

[R]: mythshutdown --shutdown sets the time via nvram-wakeup. But I am using ACPI. Does this matter?

[10:51:53]

[R]:

Finswimmer: mythshutdown --shutdown sets it via whatever you configured it as

[10:52:35]

Finswimmer:

-q/--shutdown (set nvram-wakeup time and shutdown)

[10:52:42]

[R]:

i'm telling you

[10:52:44]

[R]:

Finswimmer: mythshutdown --shutdown sets it via whatever you configured it as

[10:53:08]

waxhead:

it is normal to have 746 rows in the settings table for one hostname?

[10:53:36]

Finswimmer:

Hm. ok. Then the help is not clearly at this point.

[10:53:57]

Finswimmer:

waxhead: not really ;) (you mean /etc/hostname?)

[10:54:02]

____jon:

with_ep_name: %(seasonnumber)s-%(episodenumber)s %(series)s – %(episodename)s.%(avi)s is this the right format? (jamu)

[10:54:34]

[R]:

waxhead: depends on how much crap you ahve in there

[10:54:47]

[R]:

Finswimmer: thats why the wiki sort of explains it

[10:55:08]

waxhead:

Finswimmer, nope, the settings table in myth...

[10:55:34]

waxhead:

[R], plenty of crap it seems...

[10:55:48]

Finswimmer:

[R]: thanks. i will try it :)

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[11:18:33]

justinh:

****ing Adobe ****ing sucks!

[11:19:03]

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[11:34:21]

Dibblah:

Well, don't do that, then.

[11:39:07]

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[11:42:19]

Abongile:

Hi I need help, am new, just installed mythbuntu 9.10, and remote frontends cannot connect. IP address checked and correct (ifconfig) and password correct from myth-setup on BE/FE. 2) Can't change channels, channel number changes but feed stays the same.

[11:43:48]

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[11:44:45]

Guest73943:

i have the new mythtv 0.22 and a problem with mythmusic. can anybody help me ?

[11:44:59]

Guest73943:

in mythmusic are the frames from the playlist invisible. in all themes.

[11:45:15]

Guest73943:

a screenshot of my issue http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1041/snapshot1gf.jpg

[11:46:00]

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[11:49:03]

Guest73943:

and a other question : where i can edit the Mainmenu in 0.22 ? in old 0.21 it was possible in mainmenu.xml

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[12:38:36]

justinh:

Guest73943: same as it ever was

[12:39:45]

Abongile:

How do I setup remote frontends in Mythbuntu 9.10. Remote frontend error: "Is IP address correct, is B/E running" IP correct (ifconfig), B/E is running and password correct.

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[12:40:10]

justinh:

IP correct? You mean it's set to the real LAN IP of the backend?

[12:40:28]

justinh:

mythbackend & mysql must both be bound to the real LAN IP address

[12:40:30]

Abongile:

justinh: Yes, as per ifconfig

[12:40:55]

justinh:

can you log into the mysql server from the remote machine?

[12:41:29]

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[12:41:31]

Abongile:

justinh: don't know, don't know how to but mythweb picks it up just fine.

[12:41:35]

justinh:

why do you need ifconfig to find out the machine's ip address anyway? Don't you know it?

[12:42:19]

Abongile:

justinh: it's not static as yet, and I needed to nesure I had the right I.P address, though I do use a name for the B/E.

[12:42:31]

justinh:

it HAS to be a static IP address

[12:43:40]

Abongile:

justinh: I will look into a static IP address once I have the RF/E working. It worked just fine in 9.04 and previous. I notice there's no add DHCP server in 9.10 as there was in the Myth control centres before.

[12:44:00]

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[12:44:31]

Abongile:

justinh: also I don't really know how to set a static IP.

[12:44:37]

justinh:

oh right. don't bother doing things properly from the start. Fine

[12:45:15]

justinh:

anyway there's an option in MCC to reconfigure your backend to allow remote frontends AFAIK

[12:45:42]

Abongile:

justinh: don't understand that, it worked in previous verions it's now that I am using 9.10 that suddenly frontends can't connect. So how do I solve the problem.

[12:46:21]

justinh:

you haven't even said what you've changed

[12:46:35]

Abongile:

justinh: have not seen that option and I have gone from top to bottom looking for something to help me out. The closests was enable Mysql services and that's enabled.

[12:46:46]

justinh:

sigh

[12:46:52]

justinh:

from the remote frontend open a terminal

[12:46:59]

Abongile:

justinh: I have changed nothing since installing.

[12:47:04]

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[12:47:11]

justinh:

try logging into the mysql server with mysql -u mythtv -pPASSWORD

[12:47:12]

Abongile:

justinh: terminal open

[12:47:19]

justinh:

where PASSWORD is the mythtv mysql password

[12:47:28]

justinh:

notice there's no space after the -p

[12:47:41]

justinh:

you also need to use -h hosname (or IP address)

[12:47:41]

Abongile:

justinh: sudo?

[12:47:45]

justinh:

no

[12:47:54]

justinh:

mysql -u mythtv -pPASSWORD -h HOST

[12:48:13]

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[12:49:30]

Abongile:

justinh: ok trying it now first attempt access denied, I will confirm password from myth-setup.

[12:50:05]

justinh:

your mysql server has to be running bound to the LAN ip address of the machine

[12:50:14]

justinh:

or the remote access bit won't work

[12:51:04]

justinh:

you tell a remote frontend where to find the database server. it then looks in the database to find out where the master backend lives

[12:51:06]

Abongile:

justinh: are these commands in parts i.e. mysql -u mythtv [enter] and then -p?

[12:51:11]

justinh:

FFS

[12:51:13]

justinh:

NO

[12:51:32]

justinh:

did I say press ENTER between text?

[12:51:37]

justinh:

NO I bloody didn't

[12:51:51]

justinh:

mysql -u mythtv -pPASSWORD -h HOST

[12:51:51]

Abongile:

justinh: sorry, I am new trying to learn as quickly as I can.

[12:52:31]

justinh:

yeah well, learning fast isn't as good as learning *well* apparently

[12:53:21]

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[12:53:28]

justinh:

pretty sure Mythbuntu have an option in their control centre to mess with this kind of stuff

[12:53:50]

Abongile:

justinh: access denined

[12:54:21]

Abongile:

justinhL error 1045 (28000)

[12:54:47]

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[12:54:57]

Abongile:

justinh: There used to be, there used to be a check box for add dhcp and now in 9.10 it's not there.

[12:55:00]

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[12:55:28]

justinh:

so no remote clients are being allowed to connect to the mysql server

[12:55:47]

Abongile:

justinh: No, seems not

[12:56:40]

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[12:56:56]

justinh:

FFS. Searching on the mythtv.org docs page is broken thanks to the daft fade effect

[12:57:01]

Abongile:

justinh: now it's asking me to enster a password, there difference is I did not have a space between -p and the password. I don't know what password it is looking ofr.

[12:57:33]

justinh:

you should know

[12:57:42]

justinh:

it's looking for the mysql password for the mythtv mysql user

[12:57:48]

justinh:

which YOU SHOULD KNOW

[12:58:17]

justinh:

but being mythbuntu it probably set one up for you at install time, and told you what it was set to

[12:58:45]

Abongile:

justinh: I thought that was the password I put in after the -p?

[12:58:55]

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[12:59:10]

justinh:

if the mysql mythtv user's password is BLAHblah you'd put -pBLAHblah

[13:00:03]

Abongile:

justinh: yeah and that returned immediate with the access denied, then I sued a space between -p and the password and password prompt comes us below.

[13:00:41]

justinh:

I give up

[13:00:58]

justinh:

go look in the official docs, find the Mysql config section & look for "Modifying access to the MySQL database for multiple systems"

[13:02:36]

Abongile:

justinh: url?

[13:02:42]

justinh:

mythtv.org

[13:02:51]

justinh:

fuckwit

[13:02:52]

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[13:03:31]

Abongile:

justinh: fuckwit?

[13:06:57]

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[13:22:09]

noaXess_kubuntu:

is it possible to run mythsetup from a remote machine?

[13:23:01]

noaXess_kubuntu:

cause my backend is in the cave of my house :)

[13:23:38]

Hoxzer:

yeah...

[13:23:41]

Hoxzer:

ssh -X

[13:23:49]

Hoxzer:

(x forward)

[13:24:26]

noaXess_kubuntu:

but if on the backend runs no X?

[13:24:54]

Hoxzer:

noaXess_kubuntu: Just try it. Shouldn't be a problem.

[13:25:01]

Hoxzer:

the window will open on your machine

[13:25:12]

noaXess_kubuntu:

okay....

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[14:44:57]

Joris_:

I upgraded from Ubuntu 8.10 (MythTV 0.21) to Ubuntu 9.04 (MythTV 0.22), now all my recordings are subject to quite strong interference; any ideas to start with?

[14:58:58]

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[15:01:12]

abarbaccia:

hey all – is mythweb compatible with storage groups for video covers?

[15:03:02]

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[15:17:55]

dgilmore:

comcast locally have started stripping off the ATSC data from the ota channels. and ive had to readd them

[15:18:11]

dgilmore:

now they are not showing up guide data

[15:18:16]

dgilmore:

any ideas?

[15:19:52]

devinheitmueller:

dgilmore: file a grievance with the FCC.

[15:20:07]

devinheitmueller:

They're not allowed to strip PSIP data off of retransmitted OTA broadcasts.

[15:22:54]

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[15:24:12]

dgilmore:

devinheitmueller: hrrm.

[15:34:49]

devinheitmueller:

Unfortunately, it's not like the FCC will do anything about it. Most of the cable companies are violating the rules in one way or the other.

[15:35:59]

devinheitmueller:

I keep thinking I really should write a simple tool to evaluate FCC compliance (which does a scan, collects all the data, and identifies the problems), but I just never seem to get around to it.

[15:42:56]

dgilmore:

it seems the FCC really doesnt care to enforce things

[15:43:12]

dgilmore:

if they did cable card would be more common and actually viable

[15:43:16]

devinheitmueller:

Presumably they have bigger issues to deal with.

[15:43:43]

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[15:43:44]

devinheitmueller:

If you're into cablecard, this might interest you (from this morning): http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=186151

[15:44:00]

Milet:

Okey, I give up and ask: Is it possible watch livetv by using mythweb?

[15:44:31]

dgilmore:

devinheitmueller: id like it, just so i can get SciFi in HD

[15:44:44]

devinheitmueller:

Yeah, I hear you.

[15:45:14]

devinheitmueller:

Your only option at this point is a HDPVR.

[15:45:27]

Milet:

when I press record program and wait a moment and then press ASX, I can see only that time I just waited. So problem could be in streaming?

[15:48:10]

Shadow__X:

i get syfy in hd over firewire

[15:48:39]

devinheitmueller:

Ah, true – you might be able to also get firewire to work.

[15:48:59]

dgilmore:

Shadow__X: im trying to avoid getting set top boxes

[15:49:43]

Shadow__X:

hmm i dont know how many channels nyou plan to get

[15:49:58]

Shadow__X:

last time i nchecked cable card didnt work on linux

[15:50:29]

dgilmore:

right now i just use a hdhomerun

[15:50:37]

dgilmore:

i get whats transmitted in the clear

[15:50:44]

dgilmore:

whihc is not much

[15:52:56]

Shadow__X:

right its not going to be as mas as whats encrypted

[15:53:42]

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[15:55:10]

wagnerrp:

Milet: no livetv, no

[15:55:15]

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[15:55:20]

wagnerrp:

you *can* watch a recording in-progress

[15:55:43]

wagnerrp:

but you cannot trigger and watch a new livetv session through mythweb

[15:57:37]

Milet:

do know why my recording in-progress dont work well?

[15:58:34]

wagnerrp:

because something is only reading the file up to the point that it opened the file

[15:58:43]

wagnerrp:

either your player, or apache, or both

[15:59:07]

wagnerrp:

has no code to re-read the file length and extend past the original file size at time of opening

[16:00:14]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: the problem is that all of those solutions are still going to mandate some form of end-to-end encryption

[16:00:29]

wagnerrp:

they would never give up that capability

[16:00:42]

wagnerrp:

and you can never have that sort of capability in an open source project

[16:01:22]

Milet:

wagnerrp: ok thanks

[16:01:54]

wagnerrp:

Milet: its a limitation of the fact that you are not actually accessing a stream, just opening a file

[16:02:04]

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[16:02:21]

wagnerrp:

you come up against the same problem trying to watch in-progress recordings over upnp

[16:02:51]

pelmen:

guys, my hd movies are played either slow or with artifacts in Internal player, while are perfectly fine in mplayer -vo vdpau. any suggestions ?

[16:03:29]

Guest63793:

anyone here from australia?

[16:03:29]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: that is likely true. Was still nice to see Tivo finally stepping up and pointing out all the BS the cable companies were pulling.

[16:03:40]

devinheitmueller:

s/were/are/

[16:04:00]

dgilmore:

Guest63793: i am, though im not there presently

[16:04:28]

Guest63793:

i registered for an ice tv account and am trying to get it working, any ideas?

[16:04:54]

Guest63793:

i followed the forums but no dice

[16:05:05]

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[16:05:13]

Guest63793:

it seems to be getting usa channels or something

[16:05:53]

wagnerrp:

http://www.icetv.com.au/cgi-bin/websupport.cg . . . mp;faq_id=70

[16:05:58]

Joris_:

Since I upgraded to MythTV 0.22 (from version 0.21) my recordings are showed in a lower quality with interference; any ideas to start with?

[16:06:36]

wagnerrp:

Joris_: what tuner are you using?

[16:07:14]

Joris_:

wagnerrp: A Hauppage PVR-500 (dual PVR-150 setup)

[16:07:16]

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[16:07:35]

wagnerrp:

go into the recording profiles, and make sure it hasnt been reset to a lower bitrate/resolution

[16:08:27]

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[16:08:30]

Joris_:

wagnerrp: The raw recordings seem to be okay, also older recordings (from before the upgrade) are displayed in a lower resolution...

[16:08:51]

Joris_:

wagnerrp: Thinking of a front-end problem

[16:08:59]

Guest63793:

yeah followed that, but for 0.22 it doesnt work according to forum post

[16:11:51]

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[16:12:27]

Guest63793:

is there another way around it

[16:12:44]

wagnerrp:

dont know anything about icetv

[16:13:32]

Guest63793:

lets start with mythtv then what file does it read the guide from for a xmltv source?

[16:13:52]

Guest63793:

or better still how does it know what xmltv to read from ?

[16:13:59]

wagnerrp:

dont know, never used xmltv

[16:14:48]

Guest63793:

dgilmore any ideas?

[16:16:27]

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[16:17:03]

Guest63793:

ok so what tables does it populate on successful fill ?

[16:19:54]

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[16:20:00]

wagnerrp:

should be filling program[rating|genre]

[16:21:08]

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[16:36:13]

rob__:

hello....I am trying to rip a dvd in myth....I think i have mtd running correctly but I am not sure. it says that it cant bind to 2442 because there might be another copy of mtd running.....

[16:36:38]

rob__:

how would i know what port mtd is running on?

[16:36:47]

wagnerrp:

is there another copy of mtd running? or one that terminated uncleanly in the last few minutes?

[16:38:48]

rob__:

i do a ps aux | grep mtd and its showing but next to the pid (i'm assuming) it has a question mark

[16:41:45]

rob__:

I have the logs posted on pastebin if needed.

[16:41:57]

Hoxzer:

https://garage.maemo.org/projects/mtv <- wow awsome

[16:42:52]

Hoxzer:

Sad that they prefer C instead of C++.

[16:43:36]

wagnerrp:

Hoxzer: why? C just sacrifices modularity for speed and memory

[16:44:09]

rob__:

http://mythbuntu.pastebin.com/f59df2146

[16:44:26]

wagnerrp:

besides, that project hasnt been touched in almost two years

[16:44:26]

Hoxzer:

wagnerrp: Eventhough they are very similar I have never did anything with C

[16:44:30]

wagnerrp:

its non-functional

[16:44:30]

Hoxzer:

*done

[16:45:08]

Hoxzer:

wagnerrp: well. Now that n900 is out somebody might revive that

[16:47:29]

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[16:47:34]

rob__:

wagnerrp, I killed the running mtd and restarted it, seems to be doing something more then before hand.

[16:47:46]

wagnerrp:

rob__: never used mtd, have no idea

[16:48:22]

rob__:

o ok

[16:48:26]

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[16:49:03]

wagnerrp:

and of course you cant hang around waiting for someone who has...

[16:49:38]

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[16:51:59]

Guest63793:

are you guys familiar with how linuxmce uses mythtv?

[16:52:46]

wagnerrp:

linuxmce internally has an extremely hacked up version of 0.20.2

[16:54:01]

Guest63793:

serious? how can i confirm what version of mythtv im using?

[16:54:07]

iamlindoro:

which is pretty paleolithic

[16:54:19]

wagnerrp:

mythbackend --version

[16:54:44]

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[16:54:51]

wagnerrp:

presumably they still have that binary around

[16:55:05]

iamlindoro:

Last I heard they were trying to hack in .21, they might have finally succeeded

[16:55:07]

Guest63793:

library api: 0.22.really long int

[16:55:11]

iamlindoro:

and then they're only 2 years out of date

[16:55:28]

Guest63793:

seems up to date

[16:56:18]

wagnerrp:

their last update is from october 08

[16:56:24]

wagnerrp:

that is not running 0.22

[16:56:56]

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[16:57:33]

Guest63793:

mythtv version: 23003

[16:57:33]

Guest63793:

is that the latest?

[16:57:55]

Guest63793:

so why does my version show 0.22 ?

[16:58:30]

wagnerrp:

do you have mythtv installed independent of linuxmce?

[16:58:37]

Guest63793:

nope

[16:58:59]

wagnerrp:

one would assume if you were actually running some development version of linuxmce, you wouldnt be in here asking these sorts of questions

[16:59:15]

iamlindoro:

anyway, ask them

[16:59:44]

wagnerrp:

23003 is from roughly a week ago

[16:59:49]

iamlindoro:

since they should be fielding their support requests-- linuxMCE's Myth is a bit too abstracted for us to be able to offer any support for it

[17:00:00]

sphery:

so is the development version of LMCE using some semi-recent version of Myth?

[17:00:08]

sphery:

or is it still 0.dark.ages?

[17:00:16]

whiteley_:

How do I turn on closed captions?

[17:00:47]

wagnerrp:

their last released alpha was the beginning of last december

[17:00:49]

sphery:

whiteley_: MENU (M), then select the captions or subtitles as desired, or using the TOGGLECAPTIONS binding (T by default)

[17:00:51]

iamlindoro:

sphery: I have a suspicion that maybe they're leveraging the mythbuntu repositories or packages

[17:01:03]

sphery:

so that would mean they've updated?

[17:01:23]

iamlindoro:

Dunno, that would mean they would have had to unhack a bunch of their hacks

[17:01:35]

sphery:

yeah...

[17:02:10]

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[17:02:30]

whiteley_:

sphery: sometimes that doesn't work. When I hit T, it says 'no captions'. However, when I watch the same show with hdhomerun_config_gui + vlc, I can turn on the captions.

[17:02:30]

Guest63793:

no i had a dev make me do an update of linuxmce so i guess it got latest from mythtv

[17:02:51]

wagnerrp:

had you update to their subversion trunk?

[17:02:58]

Guest63793:

im just trying to understand both worlds to promote oss world peace :)

[17:03:06]

wagnerrp:

because 23003 is certainly not in any formal release version

[17:03:11]

Guest63793:

via their admin

[17:03:20]

sphery:

whiteley_: then use the menu--it's selecting the wrong one by default

[17:03:26]

Guest63793:

so these guys got me living on the edge then?

[17:03:44]

sphery:

whiteley_: my guess is the stream is missing the preferred captions, so it's falling back to the wrong stream

[17:03:45]

whiteley_:

sphery: and on some shows, the menu option isn't there.

[17:03:48]

iamlindoro:

Guest63793: There's no war, just that we cannot provide any help for their software-- it's Myth setup is a distant cousin at best

[17:03:49]

sphery:

could be language-settings related

[17:04:11]

sphery:

if there's no menu entry, that means that Myth can't understand any of the caption formats in there, so patches appreciated

[17:04:11]

iamlindoro:

Guest63793: Anything you ask us about LinuxMCE we will have to shrug at, as they have applied several years worth of hacks to it

[17:05:22]

Guest63793:

cant the software have hooks so other software such as linuxmce play nice?

[17:05:30]

whiteley_:

sphery: are CCs preserved through transcoding?

[17:05:50]

sphery:

whiteley_: some might be, none are guaranteed to be

[17:05:56]

sphery:

whiteley_: subtitles are /always/ stripped

[17:06:08]

wagnerrp:

Guest63793: how would it play nice? linuxmce is supposed to be a stand-alone solution with nothing else running

[17:06:19]

wagnerrp:

its not supposed to play nice with other programs outside itself

[17:06:28]

sphery:

Open captions and open subtitles are always preserved (ha, ha :), but closed captions/closed subtitles will depend on a lot of things

[17:06:35]

sphery:

whiteley_: solution: never transcode

[17:06:35]

iamlindoro:

Guest63793: Myth has *tons* of externally accessible API stuff-- an XML interface, a well documented protocol, python and perl bindings...

[17:06:35]

wagnerrp:

mythtv to some extent is the same

[17:06:42]

iamlindoro:

dunno what more we can do to make it interoperable

[17:06:52]

sphery:

whiteley_: if you haven't the space, solution: new 1.5TB or 2TB HDD

[17:07:11]

iamlindoro:

so if another project decides to take the code and hack on it, that's their prerogative, but it's squarely on their shoulders.

[17:07:25]

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[17:07:55]

wagnerrp:

their subversion is horrid collection of crap

[17:08:40]

wagnerrp:

well... i guess im just used to looking at a single program (mythtv)

[17:08:41]

Guest63793:

yeesh

[17:08:47]

wagnerrp:

while this is the repository for an entire distro

[17:09:20]

devinheitmueller:

I'm sure the linuxmce guys are welcome to submit patches upstream if they have stuff that would be useful. But it has to meet the MythTV code quality standards.

[17:09:55]

whiteley_:

sphery: ah. this particular show was not transcoded. I just loaded the .mpg in vlc, and the subtitles/captions are there. Yet myth FE can't find them.

[17:10:03]

devinheitmueller:

But yeah, iamlindoro is right – if they take the code and change it, it becomes their responsibility to support new versions.

[17:10:05]

iamlindoro:

Plus, with Captain M's committing of the event handler code last night, it *really* obviates LMCE IMHO

[17:10:17]

sphery:

whiteley_: means they're unsupported/unrecognized

[17:10:49]

sphery:

iamlindoro: ++ , makes LMCE's "added value" about nothing

[17:11:12]

sphery:

hope they rework so LMCE becomes a set of scripts and perhaps a default "theme" of event handling

[17:11:31]

Guest63793:

im a .net web dev, i heard oss guys have got good cohesion, hmm ok ill back and forth until i understand the diffs and get things working

[17:11:52]

wagnerrp:

there is very little cohesion in the OSS world

[17:12:17]

wagnerrp:

since developers are no longer motivated by a paycheck, they go off and work on their own pet projects

[17:12:18]

iamlindoro:

Cohesion doesn't come into it

[17:12:30]

devinheitmueller:

Guest63793: depends on the project. Usually it's the patch originator's responsibility to work to get the stuff upstream – it's not the maintainers responsibility to go out looking for third-party patches to merge.

[17:12:38]

iamlindoro:

they have worked on the code in their own sphere, have never been a bother or a help, and they are welcome to

[17:12:44]

wagnerrp:

but that doesnt really matter since mythtv and linuxmce are independent

[17:12:50]

iamlindoro:

just because it's open source doesn't mean we need to get together for pizza weekly

[17:13:10]

devinheitmueller:

mmmm..... Pizza....

[17:13:13]

iamlindoro:

We don't love them, we don't hate them, they are welcome to do whatever they like with whatever version of the code they like

[17:13:16]

sphery:

Yeah, I want my pizza

[17:13:33]

devinheitmueller:

sphery: Well, if you were in New York City, I would treat!

[17:13:39]

iamlindoro:

They can ask for help, not ask for help, contribute, not contribute... open source is the ultimate in "do what you want"

[17:14:01]

sphery:

heh... You're just saying that because you know I just got back from there (Dec 18--right before you guys were supposed to get that snowstorm...)

[17:14:17]

sphery:

It's /much/ warmer here at home--in Florida.

[17:14:19]

devinheitmueller:

sphery: Actually, I didn't know that. If you had said something I surely would have.

[17:14:23]

Guest63793:

fair enough

[17:15:06]

sphery:

devinheitmueller: Yeah, just joking--though I think I should be buying you the pizza. You've surely done far more for FOSS than me (and without drivers, there'd be no myth, anyway :)

[17:15:09]

wagnerrp:

honestly, ive not had better pizza than some 'facaccio' pizza some local chain sells

[17:15:30]

Guest63793:

its just both your projects are the reason a .net dev such as me is battling days to get my htpc to sing rather than install win7 media centre or the like, i wreckon it would be the icing on the OSS cake if you will

[17:15:43]

devinheitmueller:

sphery: I do what I can. We can "go dutch" then.

[17:16:01]

iamlindoro:

Guest63793: The two projects have entirely different aims, we wouldn't work at all as one project

[17:16:09]

wagnerrp:

sphery: nonsense... it worked for xbmc!

[17:16:21]

sphery:

wagnerrp: best pizza in the world is Pizzapapalis in Chicago, IL and Detroit, MI (Chicago-style)

[17:16:29]

sphery:

devinheitmueller: good plan

[17:16:30]

devinheitmueller:

Guest63793: You need to understand that nobody here is getting paid to make your life easier.

[17:16:55]

devinheitmueller:

Guest63793: If it works for you, then great. If you're trying to do something that doesn't work and it matters that much to you, feel free to submit patches.

[17:16:57]

wagnerrp:

well again, that depends on the project

[17:17:00]

iamlindoro:

Guest63793: They want to bring together a bunch of tools and stitch them together, Myth has no designs on being a home automation system, a distro, a fry slicer, etc.

[17:17:19]

wagnerrp:

some people do get paid, and there actually has been some paid work done for mythtv in the past

[17:17:23]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I thought KOZP had one simple aim--"free"

[17:17:32]

iamlindoro:

They also prefer to just write a gui for other tools, Myth prefers a homegrown approach where everything is very consistent and internal to our code

[17:17:35]

sphery:

(no capitalization errors in that statement, btw)

[17:18:21]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: I don't doubt that some get paid (or have been paid in the past to do certain things). But that doesn't change the fact that it probably wasn't their job to make *this guy's* life easier. They were paid to do whatever it was the company needed who was signing the check.

[17:18:27]

sphery:

Guest63793 / iamlindoro : and Myth's approach is "completely integrated system". LMCE's (and Freevo's) approach is "integrate a bunch of external tools"

[17:18:34]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: well sure

[17:18:41]

sphery:

almost strange that LMCE didn't choose Freevo for exactly that reason

[17:18:44]

iamlindoro:

sphery: I think I just said that ;)

[17:18:45]

wagnerrp:

it was to make someone's life easier

[17:18:45]

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[17:19:04]

sphery:

(though, IMHO, the quality of the Myth backend speaks for why they chose Myth)

[17:19:17]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: But hey, if there is a market for MythTV consulting, I would certainly welcome the work. ;-)

[17:19:44]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: and technically, there was some paid work done by pluto, the parent company of linuxmce

[17:20:01]

sphery:

is pluto still a company?

[17:20:04]

wagnerrp:

dont know

[17:20:05]

sphery:

or did they go under?

[17:20:11]

iamlindoro:

Think they did

[17:20:14]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: Ah. Yeah, I have not been privy to the details of what consulting work was done in the past.

[17:20:18]

sphery:

that was my recollections

[17:20:48]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: yeah, the telnet remote control on the frontend was work contracted by one of the devs

[17:20:59]

sphery:

there's still a company website...

[17:21:17]

Guest63793:

so all your work is in C then?

[17:21:52]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: Ah. Yeah, the big issue at this point seems to be not a dearth of developers willing to do consulting so much as companies willing to pay for the work (a common theme in OSS projects)...

[17:21:54]

wagnerrp:

myth is almost entirely C++ with the qt bindings

[17:22:24]

Guest63793:

i knew i shoud have picked a job in that field isntead of the managed route :)

[17:22:27]

sphery:

Myth is C++ (which means a lot of C code and a little bit of C++ code compiled with a C++ compiler :) which uses Qt framework

[17:22:29]

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[17:22:58]

wagnerrp:

theres a handful of scripts, and mythweb is all perl and php

[17:23:04]

wagnerrp:

but other than that, its all C/C++

[17:23:54]

sphery:

Guest63793: IMHO, unmanaged code has no business in the modern company's internal development work. I.e. a company that chooses C/C++ for in-house projects is probably making a bad decision. So for business, choosing .NET is a good idea.

[17:24:24]

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[17:24:34]

wagnerrp:

sphery: well it all boils down to what youre project is

[17:24:43]

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[17:24:46]

wagnerrp:

for nearly everything i do, .NET would be a bad decision

[17:26:16]

wagnerrp:

if all youre looking for is speed of development, and speed of executing is not a significant concern, then .NET is great

[17:27:10]

wagnerrp:

but if youre looking at any real data crunching, even FORTRAN is still in active development

[17:27:50]

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[17:30:12]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I'm talking about generic in-house development (like enterprise apps, etc)--not purpose-specific code or code-for-sale

[17:30:54]

sid3windr:

what is this .net I see

[17:30:57]

sid3windr:

do you not meen Java? :P

[17:31:16]

sid3windr:

*mean

[17:31:23]

sid3windr:

damn, there goes the special tone I put in ;)

[17:32:04]

sphery:

So, obviously writing a 3D shooter in .NET (or Java) is wrong, and the use of C/C++/assembly is quite likely appropriate. Similarly, an app for data heavy processor-constrained data crunching may be appropriate in C/C++ (where the processor that can do it in .NET/Java is unavailable or is more expensive than developers)

[17:32:46]

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[17:33:18]

sphery:

sid3windr: it's Java for Windows--the MS "OK, we've stalled this whole Java thing for 7-years which gave us a chance to make our own implementation, so now we can concede to violating the licensing terms of Java and never do any Java stuff again"

[17:33:21]

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[17:33:33]

sid3windr:

:)

[17:33:49]

** sid3windr prefers the open version then ;) **

[17:34:00]

sid3windr:

but I do work in a java shop (not the coffee brand) so .. ;)

[17:34:13]

sid3windr:

not as a developer I might add – I'd go absolutely crazy

[17:34:17]

sphery:

do you actually use OpenJava?

[17:34:21]

sid3windr:

no, java is gpl!

[17:34:22]

sid3windr:

;)

[17:34:27]

sphery:

it's still too much of a pain to build... :(

[17:34:33]

sphery:

no, OpenJava is GPL

[17:34:38]

sid3windr:

well, yeah, that then ;)

[17:34:39]

sphery:

some of Java from Sun is GPL.

[17:34:39]

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[17:34:44]

sid3windr:

there's only one java I think with which our stuff works

[17:34:48]

sid3windr:

and that's suns ;)

[17:34:53]

sid3windr:

but it's still more open than .net

[17:34:54]

sphery:

heh...

[17:35:00]

sphery:

Yeah, I agree.

[17:35:09]

sid3windr:

blackdown used to work, dunno what the status is now

[17:35:22]

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[17:35:26]

sid3windr:

thanks to customers running $ancient a lot of stuff is still awt instead of swing based

[17:35:37]

sid3windr:

so all those miseryjava's could still have a chance, too, actually :P

[17:35:55]

sphery:

.NET has mostly the same design as J++ (which is the "redesign Java to work efficiently on MS Windows/x86" but whose implementation made assumptions that would significantly hurt performance on other platforms)

[17:36:04]

sid3windr:

:)

[17:36:04]

sphery:

my opinions ^^^

[17:36:10]

sid3windr:

java runs best on windows

[17:36:21]

sphery:

Java on Linux isn't too great, I'll admit

[17:36:28]

sid3windr:

neither is java on solaris

[17:36:37]

sid3windr:

(way to go, sun)

[17:36:38]

sphery:

Hope it gets better with Java 7 (when OpenJava should actually be usable :)

[17:36:58]

sphery:

well, at least they realized where the market was instead of lying to themselves :)

[17:36:59]

Dibblah:

Java runs best on an ARM926EJ-S

[17:37:01]

sid3windr:

windows version gets all optimizations first – was also the first to have 2d accel for the gui :)

[17:37:07]

wagnerrp:

ok, i was referring to application specific code, namely engineering code

[17:37:27]

sid3windr:

Dibblah: likely, I meant between linux/windows/solaris ;)

[17:37:30]

sid3windr:

/osx

[17:37:30]

sid3windr:

:p

[17:37:46]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah, that's a case where considering the platform's strengths makes sense... also a lot less common than generic enterprise dev :)

[17:38:46]

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[17:39:00]

sphery:

sid3windr: for a while there, Gosling was using (and swearing by) Java on OS X. Then a certain fruit-themed company dropped the ball...

[17:39:02]

wagnerrp:

although ive been seeing some strange combinations lately

[17:39:11]

mattwynne:

guys, any tips here on getting DVD playback to work? I'm using ubuntu (9.10) and I can't even seem to find a built-in player that works reliably.

[17:39:23]

sphery:

Internal

[17:39:26]

sphery:

perhaps?

[17:39:29]

wagnerrp:

more than one high performance fluid flow solver implemented as python modules written in C/FORTRAN

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[17:40:09]

sid3windr:

mattwynne: I don't think there are a lot of built in players... :P

[17:40:12]

sid3windr:

i.e. just one ;)

[17:40:37]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah, today, one of the best approaches for GUI dev in Java is actually Python (or Ruby) GUI run inside the JVM (Java 6+)... Perhaps it's for integrating the "easy-to-create, RAD GUI" with "real code"?

[17:41:14]

mattwynne:

sid3windr sorry bad description – I actually mean the non-built-in players, like VLC, MPlayer, Xine

[17:41:20]

sphery:

mattwynne: I find that a STB DVD player tends to always do well... :)

[17:41:26]

sphery:

and is legal where I live

[17:41:28]

mattwynne:

sid3windr: the Internal player is really jerky for me

[17:41:29]

wagnerrp:

sphery++

[17:41:40]

mattwynne:

I'm wondering which bit of hardware is to blame

[17:41:47]

mattwynne:

because presumably it can't be this bad for everyone

[17:42:06]

mattwynne:

if it's just a matter of replacing the DVD drive I'll happily do that

[17:42:20]

sphery:

mattwynne: Sounds like you have a bad playback profile group chosen--my guess is you have CPU+ (the worst of all possible choices)... Change it to Slim

[17:42:35]

sid3windr:

how does everyone end up with those playback profiles :/

[17:42:35]

sphery:

mattwynne: Utilities/Setup|Setup|TV Settings|Playback (3rd screen)

[17:42:40]

** sid3windr never touched it :) **

[17:43:07]

sphery:

sid3windr: there's a bug in the settings code such that the default (Normal) isn't chosen, so you end up with the first in the (ASCII-betical) list, CPU+

[17:43:13]

sid3windr:

ahhh :)

[17:43:34]

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[17:43:38]

sphery:

I've considered fixing it, but every time I spend time on it, I think "we're just going to rewrite all this settings code, so..."

[17:43:43]

sid3windr:

:>

[17:43:58]

sphery:

I prefer bugs fixed by deletion

[17:46:01]

sphery:

yay! [23012] . Nice work, Captain_Murdoch !!!

[17:46:06]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: i go downstairs to get something to drink and you beat me to the reply

[17:46:14]

wagnerrp:

even had something typed up, i just hadnt hit send

[17:46:20]

iamlindoro:

heh, on the Broadcom one?

[17:46:24]

wagnerrp:

yeah

[17:46:26]

sphery:

tickets owned by me and closed by other devs are just as nice as bugs fixed by deletion

[17:46:30]

mattwynne:

sphery: wow ok, just trying that. those setup menus are like a gold-mine (with the lights turned out!)

[17:46:56]

wagnerrp:

sphery: i need to dig into that stuff and see if i can implement something into the bindings

[17:46:56]

sphery:

mattwynne: please send any gold you find back to the project... You can put it c/o me :)

[17:47:08]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah... that would be sweet

[17:47:41]

sphery:

I haven't yet figured out all the use cases, but it seems it's generic enough to completely replace LMCE's stuff--with only minor additions (if any)

[17:48:15]

sphery:

(at least the "value added" on the tv side--they'd still need there power usage, turn on the lights, etc. GUI's or whatever)

[17:49:37]

mattwynne:

sphery: tried changing that profile and it's still jerky – it pauses every so slightly about every 5–10 seconds

[17:50:48]

Guest63793:

so where does the xmltv list of channels to be imported in mythtv live?

[17:50:52]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I think the only thing that's not in there that I'd likely have done is a "events.d" type directory structure where any script (named after the event) is automatically registered with the app in question--though I haven't finished reading the novel, so it may be later in the story

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[17:51:15]

sphery:

mattwynne: with or without audio issues?

[17:51:47]

** sphery hasn't been paying attention, but that specific issue was just fixed in one or both branches **

[17:52:25]

sphery:

mattwynne: sounds like you need to upgrade to 0.22-fixes r22920 or higher

[17:52:35]

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[17:53:09]

sphery:

mattwynne: and if that doesn't help, then upgrade to the version that backports [23002] when it goes to 0.22-fixes

[17:53:21]

sphery:

mattwynne: so, short story, update to the current 0.22-fixes

[17:54:00]

mattwynne:

sphery: cool. Is that packaged as a deb or build-yourself? Can you point me to a guide on installing it?

[17:54:23]

mattwynne:

sphery: not sure about the audio issues – trying to fix this while my newborn is asleep so keeping the sound down!

[17:55:04]

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[17:55:34]

sphery:

mattwynne: for *buntu, it's available through (some) repos... I don't know details

[17:56:03]

mattwynne:

sphery: ace, I'll hunt it down – thanks for the tip-off.

[17:57:24]

wagnerrp:

sphery: this could pave the way for VOD through LiveTV

[17:57:30]

sphery:

"System Event commands can be used for...emailing the latest schedule whenever the scheduler completes a run" <-- Don't try this if you use EIT (scheduler runs every 5 minutes :)

[17:57:41]

wagnerrp:

since it looks to broadcast keystrokes globally

[17:57:44]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I was just thinking about that

[17:58:22]

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[17:58:30]

sphery:

(natural tangent from the "remote DVD changer" he mentioned)

[17:58:47]

iamlindoro:

extremely delayed slow VOD :)

[17:59:06]

iamlindoro:

or "VOD for patient people"

[17:59:19]

wagnerrp:

well sure, but if all youre looking to do is start it, and watch it all the way through...

[17:59:32]

sphery:

So, he has in there /tons/ of stuff I wouldn't have done (far more complete than I'd have made it), but is only missing one thing I'd like to see ("event themes" through an event.d directory structure)

[17:59:35]

iamlindoro:

Yeah. Would be especially nice if you could kick off a new recording file

[17:59:50]

iamlindoro:

though it wouldn't be that awful to cut it later

[17:59:58]

sphery:

I vote for cutting

[18:00:13]

sphery:

and really, not a big deal to have a couple minutes of other junk at the beginning

[18:01:20]

iamlindoro:

I have yet to see anything on-demand worth watching

[18:01:37]

iamlindoro:

though undoubtedly people will disagree, it's all seemed like second-rate crap every time I look

[18:01:44]

wagnerrp:

thats because you outright buy all the movies you want to watch

[18:02:01]

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[18:02:14]

sphery:

so, on the bright side, it's so complete than any modifications to it are at the bottom of my TODO list

[18:02:31]

sphery:

iamlindoro: video quality wise?

[18:02:40]

iamlindoro:

sphery: selectionwise

[18:02:41]

sphery:

I wouldn't be surprised if they cut quality for it

[18:02:43]

sphery:

oh

[18:03:10]

iamlindoro:

An the implementation is a bit confused, too-- in some ways they market it as almost DVR-like, in others they market it as a video store in your home

[18:03:15]

iamlindoro:

jack of all trades, master of none

[18:03:18]

wagnerrp:

if i didnt have several hundred movies already available locally, VOD would seem more interesting to me

[18:03:33]

sphery:

I noticed a "Start Again" functionality in a TWC STB I was using on a work trip in NYC.

[18:03:35]

iamlindoro:

I don't need the "DVR-like" bits because I already have a good DVR, I don't need the video store in my house because the content is crap

[18:03:59]

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[18:04:06]

sphery:

If you tuned into a show that was currently airing (from a list of a few select channels/shows), you could hit "Start Again" and it would start over from the beginning

[18:04:53]

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[18:04:59]

sphery:

basically the MPAA-designed DVR (built in broadcast flag of only allow timeshift between start and finish)

[18:05:15]

iamlindoro:

lovely

[18:06:23]

wagnerrp:

think there would be any use for an event handler on a system not running a mythfrontend/backend/jobqueue?

[18:06:46]

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[18:07:23]

wagnerrp:

i was envisioning several daemons each registering as an event handler, and handling their own individual duties independently

[18:07:26]

sphery:

wagnerrp: could just run mythjobqueue on that system, right?

[18:07:38]

wagnerrp:

but considering each system only gets triggered once

[18:07:41]

wagnerrp:

that just wont work

[18:08:18]

wagnerrp:

sphery: yeah... so im guessing just add access to whatever backend command triggers the events

[18:10:18]

wagnerrp:

which there doesnt seem to be one

[18:14:25]

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[18:14:50]

sphery:

iamlindoro: #7810 — isn't that someone trying to break statetypes?

[18:15:28]

wagnerrp:

sphery: well if nothing else, that should be a round, rather than just a cast

[18:15:48]

iamlindoro:

sphery: Think he's taking exception with the rounding

[18:15:51]

iamlindoro:

which is valid

[18:16:20]

sphery:

ahhh

[18:16:20]

iamlindoro:

(IMHOIANALYMMV)

[18:18:06]

iamlindoro:

OK, so when the Apple Tablet is announced at 10 AM on January 26th, how long will it be, rounded to the nearest thousandth of a second, before someone asks if anyone has mythfrontend running on it?

[18:18:40]

iamlindoro:

alternately, before the words "ultimate frontend" are used

[18:18:50]

wagnerrp:

someone should photoshop an image of it running arclight, and leak it

[18:19:00]

iamlindoro:

hahaha

[18:19:39]

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[18:20:24]

sphery:

iamlindoro: and some blog post about how the Arclight dev is charging double for the font on Apple Tables

[18:20:29]

sphery:

Tablets

[18:20:41]

iamlindoro:

sphery: Did I share the Ubuntu forum post about arclight with you?

[18:20:56]

iamlindoro:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1352876

[18:21:12]

iamlindoro:

oh, sorry, that was "Archlight"

[18:21:28]

sphery:

Oh, the one with the picture of the Gateway to the West?

[18:21:49]

sphery:

iamlindoro: yeah, saw that post... a classic

[18:22:06]

sphery:

I can't believe they're making the default theme a for-pay theme

[18:22:08]

iamlindoro:

I'm sure we could get 100 themes from 100 people if they all got $20 per person for it!!

[18:22:23]

sphery:

lol

[18:22:38]

sphery:

But we'd also need some without animated flames...

[18:22:49]

iamlindoro:

To be perfectly honest, I would have no moral issue whatsoever with someone selling a myth theme

[18:22:54]

iamlindoro:

I wouldn't do it, but it wouldn't bother me

[18:22:56]

sphery:

After all, people would only be willing to pay for a theme that has animated flames

[18:23:03]

sphery:

agreed

[18:23:21]

sphery:

It's 100% GPL-compatible to sell code (or whatever is GPL'ed)

[18:23:29]

iamlindoro:

People can put a price on their work that they think is fair, and people can choose to purchase or not purchase something of value to them

[18:23:38]

sphery:

granted, once the first person got a copy...

[18:23:43]

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[18:23:51]

sphery:

but even releasing a non-GPL/non-CC closed theme is fine, IMHO

[18:23:52]

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[18:23:55]

sphery:

I wouldn't use it

[18:24:15]

sphery:

Now using an open, CC-licensed theme that requires a proprietary font is a whole other situation

[18:24:28]

sphery:

I'd do that without second thought

[18:24:32]

iamlindoro:

yeah, that guy should be tarred and feathered

[18:24:59]

sphery:

Oh, and to show just how much I believe that's not wrong--I'd even pay for the proprietary font rather than stealing a copy!!!

[18:25:14]

wagnerrp:

thats some kind of trickery right there, i bet hes in cahoots with the font author

[18:25:26]

sphery:

(assuming I like the font and theme--where in the case I'm thinking, I do)

[18:25:27]

iamlindoro:

Yeah, me and Adrian go way back

[18:25:38]

sphery:

way back... to like the '50's?

[18:25:57]

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[18:25:59]

iamlindoro:

yup

[18:26:02]

sphery:

or childhood friends in the 30's?

[18:26:10]

wagnerrp:

yeah, youll be sprinkling crushed c-notes on his grave daily from his share of the proceeds

[18:26:21]

iamlindoro:

He was 20, I was -30

[18:26:27]

wagnerrp:

now thats resting in style

[18:26:38]

sphery:

he's not dead, yet, right?

[18:26:45]

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[18:26:48]

sphery:

now I have Monty Python stuck in my head...

[18:26:50]

** wagnerrp has no idea **

[18:27:00]

wagnerrp:

just a flesh wound

[18:27:04]

sphery:

lol

[18:27:06]

Gorlist:

Evening, fresh install of Ubuntu 9.10 and mythtv through the repo – HVR-1200, for some reason when scan it comes up with Timed out, no signal.

[18:27:10]

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[18:27:23]

Gorlist:

Im out of ideas, tried the firmware, the DVB is detected (or appears to be)

[18:27:24]

wagnerrp:

1200 or 1250?

[18:27:26]

sphery:

Gorlist: can try increasing the time out values?

[18:27:28]

iamlindoro:

sphery: he's alive TTBOMK

[18:27:35]

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[18:27:39]

Gorlist:

I think a 1200* however it come from a Dell machine,

[18:27:43]

sphery:

now I'm thinking of Dr Frankenstein's Monster

[18:27:57]

sphery:

Gorlist: also, might want to get the card working outside of Myth, first

[18:28:04]

sphery:

dvb tools et al

[18:28:10]

Gorlist:

right

[18:28:13]

sphery:

just to make sure it's not a hardware/configuration issues

[18:28:24]

Gorlist:

will have ago – I have had it working over a year ago

[18:28:27]

wagnerrp:

ah... demon.co.uk, yeah, thats a 1200

[18:28:34]

Gorlist:

when I first tried mythtv, so its a new problem since

[18:29:08]

Gorlist:

rgr, will try as suggested – they do comment I might need to offset the freq. (Khz) – how do you do that in Myth

[18:29:11]

sphery:

so hardware should be good--meaning system configuration still needs checking

[18:29:24]

sphery:

can't do offsets of frequency in DVB

[18:29:30]

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[18:29:34]

sphery:

we use the freq the stream says to use

[18:29:46]

Gorlist:

rgr

[18:29:47]

iamlindoro:

Suppose you could feed in a tuned scan value that's offset, though

[18:29:54]

sphery:

(could do offsets for "initial scan", but that's it--I think you can specify a "tuned scan")

[18:30:07]

Gorlist:

okay, thanks – will try external tools first

[18:30:13]

Gorlist:

and go from their

[18:30:16]

sphery:

yeah, but when it's scannign it will use the values in the stream it finds

[18:33:14]

wagnerrp:

someone on slashdot posed an interesting idea

[18:33:44]

wagnerrp:

anyone who uses decimal instead of binary units for kilo-/mega-/giga-byte must also use a 10-bit byte

[18:35:22]

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[18:36:46]

Dagmar:

wagnerrp: I'm fine with making them use it in everyday life as well

[18:37:16]

iamlindoro:

Yay, Chuck back on the schedule :)

[18:37:33]

iamlindoro:

(that is to say, popped up 14 days out in Myth)

[18:38:54]

Hoxzer:

anybody tried GMS?

[18:39:07]

wagnerrp:

GMS?

[18:39:27]

iamlindoro:

Good Morning Saigon

[18:39:32]

Hoxzer:

GmythStream

[18:40:13]

wagnerrp:

gmythstream is only used for on-the-fly transcoding to embedded systems over the internet

[18:40:23]

Hoxzer:

wagnerrp: Yeah, i know...

[18:40:23]

wagnerrp:

and its probably outdated and non-functional on 0.22 at that

[18:40:30]

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[18:40:49]

devinheitmueller:

Gorlist: If you've got to muck around with the target frequency to make it work with a particular card, that's a bug.

[18:41:10]

grkblood1:

what is a good video capture card that i could install on ubuntu that supports HD?

[18:41:17]

Hoxzer:

wagnerrp: On-fly-encoding ist

[18:41:18]

Dagmar:

None.

[18:41:22]

Hoxzer:

wagnerrp: is just what I'm looking for

[18:41:27]

grkblood1:

none?

[18:41:35]

wagnerrp:

grkblood1: not in card form

[18:41:46]

wagnerrp:

the HDPVR is an external box, if thats acceptable

[18:41:48]

grkblood1:

what should i be looking for then

[18:41:51]

Dagmar:

Well, without further detail, we must assume you want to be able to record every format of stream, and no one makes a device that will do that

[18:42:02]

wagnerrp:

although for all intents and purposes, that would be 'none' as well until late next month

[18:42:08]

Dagmar:

You should be looking on the wiki to find out what kind of cards can even pick up the transmissions in your region.

[18:42:16]

grkblood1:

i want to be able to record off of my directv box

[18:42:29]

Dagmar:

The answer is definitely "none" now

[18:42:37]

wagnerrp:

for the above mentioned reasons

[18:42:39]

Dagmar:

You can use an HD-PVR, but it's an external USB device.

[18:42:55]

Dagmar:

It's also the only thing that will record HD from your DirectTV box.

[18:43:02]

wagnerrp:

and is out of stock everywhere

[18:43:04]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: Thought about you yesterday when someone decided to "report" a v4l-dvb compilation error to the HVR-1600 page (which inevitably they'd forget to remove when it go fixed)

[18:43:12]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: If it was broken at all, that is

[18:43:16]

Dagmar:

Hauppauge hasn't yet confirmed whether or not they were having me on yesterday

[18:43:19]

Dagmar:

I'm going to call and find out

[18:43:33]

iamlindoro:

then when I removed the note, they modified by user apge saying I shouldn't have, it's a wiki, blah blah

[18:43:34]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: Yeah. I saw that.

[18:43:42]

Dagmar:

I'd like to believe they'll fulfill direct orders first

[18:44:06]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: He's right in the sense that compilation is broken on his particular platform, but that has *nothing* to do with the HVR-1600, and would occur regardless of which device he had.

[18:44:11]

grkblood1:

i thought that once the signal went through the directv box and out to the tv it was unencrypted from that point

[18:44:16]

grkblood1:

is that wrong?

[18:44:18]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: That was my conclusion

[18:44:29]

Dagmar:

grkblood1: Your TV has decryption capabilities?

[18:44:39]

grkblood1:

thats what im saying

[18:44:40]

Dagmar:

nevermind I misread

[18:44:51]

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[18:44:52]

Dagmar:

But what's that got to do with anything?

[18:44:54]

grkblood1:

i thought the whole reason it didnt work was becasue of encryption

[18:45:09]

Dagmar:

No, the whole reason it "doesn't work" is that it's HD.

[18:45:09]

wagnerrp:

the satellite signal is encrypted, yes

[18:45:15]

Dagmar:

THere is ONE device that will record HD.

[18:45:16]

grkblood1:

ie trying to capture before goign through the box

[18:45:27]

wagnerrp:

the HDPVR will only capture component video

[18:45:30]

wagnerrp:

unencrypted analog

[18:45:44]

Dagmar:

..which could still easily be 1080.

[18:46:07]

Dagmar:

It's not really a problem that the signal becomes analog for about three to six feet of cable

[18:46:15]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: I agree with your call. I appreciate the user's frustration because that was "his experience", but it still didn't belong on that page in the Wiki, unless he intended to update the page for *every* card. Really, if the card needs to update the v4l-dvb tree, the device page should just link to the common page with the v4l-dvb build steps (and *there* people can complain about build issues)

[18:46:33]

Hoxzer:

wagnerrp: seems like there is maemomyth out for n900. Should use gmythstream.

[18:46:41]

Hoxzer:

wagnerrp: so at least it is not totally dead

[18:46:49]

Dagmar:

Something like that would have been more apropos for the Discussion page on that card

[18:46:52]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: I do like how he defaced your user page though. ;-)

[18:46:59]

grkblood1:

ok, so thats what everyone is using i guess, the HDPVR

[18:47:05]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: At most-- while blanking his modification I removed another one that was a case in point-- a forgotten compile caveat

[18:47:13]

Dagmar:

grkblood1: Because again, it's the only thing that can capture HD

[18:47:21]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: Better that than getting into a revision war where I end up locking the page, I guess

[18:47:28]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: yup.

[18:47:39]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: i like how he first defaced some innocent user who happened to get in the way

[18:47:46]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: I doubt he will force the change back in. If he does, let me know and *I* will remove it.

[18:47:47]

grkblood1:

for linux atleast right?

[18:47:59]

Dagmar:

For anything

[18:48:01]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: noted ;)

[18:48:10]

wagnerrp:

grkblood1: period, linux, or windows, or mac

[18:48:14]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: Not that I carry any more force in the matter than you, of course. A second person telling him he is dumb though might help.

[18:48:21]

sphery:

iamlindoro: is #7575 one that should be closed? (ref http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/7575#comment:2 )

[18:48:23]

grkblood1:

k, thanks guys

[18:48:38]

wagnerrp:

that is the only HD capture device within the consumer range of price

[18:48:43]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: I'm the HVR-1600 maintainer and you will not deface that product page, BITCH!

[18:48:51]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: In fairness, he's not dumb, it just doesn't belong on the wiki

[18:48:53]

devinheitmueller:

;-)

[18:48:55]

wagnerrp:

there are others, but theyre professional hardware, and several times more expensive

[18:48:56]

iamlindoro:

hahaha

[18:49:00]

iamlindoro:

sphery: IMHO? Yes

[18:49:11]

iamlindoro:

sphery: And not even because of the comment, but because it is not a supported feature

[18:49:31]

iamlindoro:

sphery: I'll close it

[18:49:40]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: no, he's not dumb. In all seriousness though, I think there would be value though in a second person confirming that the content is inappropriate.

[18:50:24]

iamlindoro:

agreed

[18:51:33]

sphery:

iamlindoro: thx... that not-supported was the last motivation I needed to close it

[18:51:37]

sphery:

then you went and did it for me

[18:52:01]

iamlindoro:

well what else is new

[18:52:03]

iamlindoro:

;) ;)

[18:52:19]

sphery:

iamlindoro is my executive branch

[18:53:08]

devinheitmueller:

sphery: I'm fine with iamlindoro being the executioner!

[18:53:08]

Dagmar:

Wow. I've no idea if Hauppauge actually has the damn things in stock or not. I'm going to have to pick up the phone and call them

[18:53:23]

devinheitmueller:

Dagmar: which board are you talking about?

[18:53:24]

sphery:

devinheitmueller: he definitely has the personality for it

[18:53:40]

Dagmar:

devinheitmueller: The HD-PVR. I wound up just placing an order with them directly yesterday with my fingers crossed

[18:53:47]

devinheitmueller:

ah.

[18:53:58]

devinheitmueller:

I cannot imagine they would be out of stock.

[18:54:00]

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[18:54:08]

Dagmar:

I hit every online hardware vendor I know of an a few more besides

[18:54:08]

wagnerrp:

they all dried up a few weeks ago

[18:54:36]

Dagmar:

There was ONE Amazon vendor who claimed to have two, but didn't even offer any way of expediting shipping, so I ignored them

[18:54:43]

Dagmar:

Everyone else is very clearly out of them

[18:54:52]

Dagmar:

So, I just went straight to Hauppauge

[18:55:56]

devinheitmueller:

interesting.

[18:56:00]

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[18:56:26]

Dagmar:

If they take longer than a week to ship the thing, I will be screaming at htem

[18:56:39]

wagnerrp:

how do i go from 7GB on one recording to 4GB on the next

[18:56:42]

wagnerrp:

FOX... you suck

[18:58:23]

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[18:59:40]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: could be the cable company changing the bitrate if it's not OTA.

[19:00:23]

wagnerrp:

could be, but theyre not allowed to recompress more than they do their own stuff (supposedly)

[19:00:50]

wagnerrp:

and the lineup hasnt changed in several months, so its not like the crammed in a bunch of extra channels into the mux in the last week

[19:01:15]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: I don't think the mandated carriage agreement prohibits them from reducing the bitrate. That's how they jam all the ATSC feeds onto one or two QAM channels.

[19:01:35]

kormoc:

don't they change up the bit rates based on on-demand usage as well?

[19:01:56]

Dagmar:

"whims"

[19:02:03]

kormoc:

or that

[19:02:20]

wagnerrp:

6.2mbps for 720p

[19:02:22]

wagnerrp:

oof

[19:02:48]

Dagmar:

Eventually someone's going to figure out they can get away with running a commercial claiming their HD is more H than other people's because of the number of bits they send out

[19:02:55]

Dagmar:

Then we'll see some padded broadcasts

[19:03:34]

devinheitmueller:

Dagmar: Well, the broadcasts already are padded with null pid packets. It's a synchronous stream.

[19:03:42]

devinheitmueller:

;-)

[19:03:50]

sphex:

hey. what's a good MPEG-4 hardware encoder?

[19:04:03]

Dagmar:

Nothing consumer-level.

[19:04:09]

sphex:

dammit

[19:04:17]

kormoc:

hdpvr doesn't count?

[19:04:29]

devinheitmueller:

sphex: None of the encoders encode to MPEG-4 (except the HD-PVR). They all still do MPEG-2.

[19:04:43]

** kormoc likes his hdpvr a lot **

[19:04:48]

wagnerrp:

well there are one or two that do mpeg4asp

[19:04:53]

Dagmar:

I hope to like my HD-PVR real soon

[19:05:21]

sphex:

ok. any issue with the hd-pvr?

[19:05:33]

wagnerrp:

lack of availability

[19:05:40]

devinheitmueller:

sphex: Well, it's a big and expensive box compared to other tuners.

[19:05:41]

sphex:

oh

[19:05:47]

wagnerrp:

that too

[19:05:56]

wagnerrp:

external box, $250 MSRP

[19:05:57]

Dagmar:

"It's out of stock just about every bloody place"

[19:05:57]

devinheitmueller:

... but it is the only one out there that can do HD.

[19:06:04]

sphex:

how's the linux/mythtv support though?

[19:06:11]

Dagmar:

It works?

[19:06:12]

kormoc:

just fine

[19:06:14]

devinheitmueller:

sphex: It's supported in 0.22.

[19:06:44]

wagnerrp:

but hey, when you can get broadcast mpeg2 at half the bitrate the hdpvr puts out, who needs higher efficiency encoders

[19:07:40]

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[19:07:51]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: ;-)

[19:08:03]

Hoxzer:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=18270& . . . light=mythtv <- OH O___O

[19:08:08]

Hoxzer:

Gotta love that shit

[19:08:20]

wagnerrp:

huh... 'deadlock detected. one buffer is full when the other is empty! aborting'

[19:08:22]

wagnerrp:

that cant be good

[19:08:53]

wagnerrp:

Hoxzer: yes, 0.21, old

[19:09:24]

kormoc:

Hoxzer: language...

[19:09:43]

sphex:

wagnerrp: hmm yeah, but don't you have to reencode the analog output of your digital cable/satallite decoder, so even if you reencode it with higher quality than they did, you're still only degrading the final quality, right?

[19:10:47]

Hoxzer:

wagnerrp: I use 0.21

[19:11:01]

wagnerrp:

well then go for it

[19:11:57]

iamlindoro:

wagnerrp: #2077

[19:12:08]

iamlindoro:

The world's most obnoxious mythtranscode bug

[19:12:22]

iamlindoro:

Obnoxious enough that I didn't need to look up the ticket # :)

[19:12:25]

sphex:

well *fine*. *maybe* I will! :p

[19:12:51]

sphex:

anyway, thanks for infos

[19:13:10]

wagnerrp:

sphex: actually that was directed at Hoxzer

[19:14:23]

kormoc:

iamlindoro: with your hdpvr recordings, do you have an issue where it only uses 1/4th the recording res for the picture and the other 3/4th are corrupt?

[19:14:34]

wagnerrp:

i thought 2077 got submitted

[19:14:56]

sphex:

so that thing should work with mythtv? http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=30194

[19:15:11]

Dagmar:

You can't figure that out yourself?

[19:15:22]

sphex:

that's right

[19:15:30]

kormoc:

<devinheitmueller> sphex: It's supported in 0.22.

[19:15:34]

wagnerrp:

look at that dagmar, in stock

[19:15:42]

Dagmar:

EVEN THOUGH YOU JUST HAD FIVE PEOPLE TELLING YOU?

[19:15:43]

kormoc:

it's not like he received confirmation or anything

[19:15:47]

Dagmar:

wagnerrp: I doubt it

[19:15:52]

high-rez:

man hdpvrs are still expensive

[19:15:53]

iamlindoro:

kormoc: Wow, nope

[19:16:06]

kormoc:

Dagmar: Canadian horders still have it in stock

[19:16:19]

sphex:

Dagmar: I was wondering if there were different "versions" of it and maybe they weren't all supported.. I dunno..

[19:16:24]

kormoc:

iamlindoro: hrm... wonder if it's the verizon box or the hdpvr, as I can't skip seek too often as well

[19:16:43]

kormoc:

sphex: and if that was the case, how'd we be able to tell from a generic description and generic picture?

[19:16:44]

wagnerrp:

http://www.ncixus.com/products/?sku=30194 too

[19:16:47]

Dagmar:

kormoc: They have 11 of them total according to their site

[19:16:54]

iamlindoro:

kormoc: Skipping definitely has issues with the output of it, though it's still usable here

[19:17:00]

high-rez:

kormoc: Are you using FIOS?

[19:17:05]

iamlindoro:

Dell tends to carry the HD-PVR at a pretty good price

[19:17:08]

kormoc:

high-rez: yes, I am

[19:17:24]

high-rez:

kormoc: I had heard that people had fios working with firewire, no?

[19:17:37]

kormoc:

iamlindoro: yeah, the quarter screen issue is like one per 20 recordings, without any real pattern

[19:17:46]

kormoc:

high-rez: only the same ones I get OTA

[19:17:48]

wagnerrp:

FIOS follows the same restrictions that any other cable provider does

[19:17:50]

Dagmar:

iamlindoro: I'd rather slice off my own wang and eat it deep-fried than give money to Dell

[19:17:59]

wagnerrp:

so yes, they have to at least provide a functional firewire port

[19:18:22]

kormoc:

high-rez: I change channels via firewire on the box, that works great

[19:18:32]

wagnerrp:

Dagmar: they have websites for that too

[19:18:44]

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[19:19:18]

iamlindoro:

Dagmar: Speaks to how badly you want an HD-PVR below MSRP, then :)

[19:20:11]

** kormoc eyes the 30 mythweb bugs he should squash one of these days **

[19:20:28]

** kormoc wonders where the reporters were when he had time to squish them **

[19:21:20]

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[19:26:41]

Dagmar:

iamlindoro: I am more concerned about whether or not it'll take ages to go through customs

[19:26:50]

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[19:26:59]

Dagmar:

I am paying Hauppauge MSRP so money isn't exactly the issue

[19:27:05]

iamlindoro:

The HD-PVRs are shipped from stateside

[19:27:06]

Dagmar:

Getting one of the fuckers here before Spring is the issue

[19:27:09]

Dagmar:

oof pardon

[19:27:32]

Dagmar:

I did kinda spend five hours looking yesterday

[19:27:47]

Dagmar:

I started to buy the one off the guy on ebay

[19:28:55]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: seems ive got a failed transcode with 3246 as well

[19:29:10]

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[19:30:46]

Gorlist:

Okay ive just installed and run Kaffeine and its found the channels

[19:30:55]

Gorlist:

so its something with Mythtv?

[19:31:01]

Gorlist:

HVR-1200 is working

[19:31:48]

devinheitmueller:

Gorlist: have you tried increasing the tuning timeout in MythTV?

[19:31:59]

Gorlist:

yes

[19:32:06]

devinheitmueller:

hmm....

[19:32:09]

Gorlist:

ive increased it to double/triple the default figures

[19:32:20]

devinheitmueller:

What's the default? 1500?

[19:32:39]

Gorlist:

1000

[19:32:52]

devinheitmueller:

Try 5000. That's the top edge that Kaffeine supports.

[19:33:03]

devinheitmueller:

(not that I suspect it will work, but let's rule it out)

[19:33:26]

devinheitmueller:

The tda18271 takes a *long* time to calibrate.

[19:33:36]

Gorlist:

rgr

[19:33:38]

Gorlist:

will have ago

[19:33:48]

devinheitmueller:

... and the timeout may have a different basis than in Kaffeine (in terms of what the time is measuring)

[19:34:15]

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[19:34:52]

devinheitmueller:

Some applications start counting right before the tuning command is issued, and others start measuring right after the tuning command returns. If issuing the tuning command itself can take several seconds, this can effect how the timeouts behave.

[19:35:36]

elec:

hey guys, i have a hauppauge 2250, im trying to tune it to channel 3 so that i can use the VCR connected to it.. i believe the linux drivers only support QAM, is there a particulr frequency i can tune into to get to my vcr?

[19:35:44]

sphex:

another thing: what about accelerated decoding of hd-pvr's mpeg-4 videos? are there good video cards compatible that can help with that or do I just have to get a good CPU?

[19:36:05]

devinheitmueller:

The problem could also be exacerbated if the application closes/reopens the DVB device between tuning attempts and the device does power management – since it has to go through calibration everytime it is powered back up.

[19:36:07]

Dagmar:

elec: You answered your own question.

[19:36:21]

wagnerrp:

sphex: see VDPAU

[19:36:25]

Dagmar:

sphex: You should really read the wiki

[19:36:32]

Dagmar:

These aren't questions you should have to ask.

[19:36:46]

sphex:

wagnerrp: alright, thanks

[19:36:58]

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[19:37:15]

elec:

dagmar, would you mind further explaining the answer i provided to me

[19:37:23]

devinheitmueller:

Damn, I should just add the frigging analog support for the 2250 just so I don't have to keep seeing people ask about it...

[19:37:36]

Dagmar:

You answered your own question. Does your VCR do QAM output?

[19:37:46]

elec:

i would think not

[19:37:52]

Dagmar:

That's part of your problem

[19:38:24]

** Anduin makes a note to ask about 2250 analog support every day **

[19:38:32]

elec:

it does support s-video out, could i somehow make tht work?

[19:38:50]

devinheitmueller:

elec: s-video *is* analog.

[19:39:00]

Dagmar:

You don't want me to answer that question.

[19:39:02]

devinheitmueller:

Anduin: cute.

[19:39:22]

elec:

right, so then thats another no since the drivers dont support it..

[19:39:25]

elec:

ok

[19:39:37]

sphery:

'[mythtv-users] mythbackend CPU spikes in "watch recordings"?' --must be someone using Graphite, which is known to burn out even the fasted of quad-core systems with 16GB RAM , right iamlindoro

[19:40:22]

iamlindoro:

designed from the ground up to turn your system into a smoldering pile of Graphite

[19:40:46]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: can I choose my preferred form of carbon? If so, I would go for diamond.

[19:40:56]

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[19:41:10]

sphery:

iamlindoro: yeah, if it was a boiling-water theme, it would be much more reliable and less likely to meltdown

[19:41:18]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: Sure... You may want to ask about the turnaround time on that, though

[19:41:28]

sphery:

no one has used Graphite themes since Chernobyl

[19:41:28]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: touche!

[19:42:21]

** iamlindoro goes to get on the bike for the first time in two months **

[19:42:33]

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[19:42:39]

Dagmar:

How cold is it there today?

[19:42:52]

Dagmar:

I'm not touching mine until it goes over 55F again

[19:43:00]

sphery:

It's a crazy cold 69F here

[19:43:12]

AndyCap:

you prefer themes with negative void coefficient?

[19:43:14]

** Dagmar ships bulk-rate hatred to sphery **

[19:43:19]

sphery:

:)

[19:43:40]

** devinheitmueller sends hatred to sphery COD. **

[19:43:52]

sphery:

oooh... that may cost a bit

[19:44:02]

Dagmar:

I still have farings sitting on my coffee table anyway

[19:44:15]

Dagmar:

Eventually I'll get around to cutting the leather

[19:44:24]

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[19:44:25]

Dagmar:

s/leat/pleat/;

[19:46:31]

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[19:56:34]

sphery:

http://mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-dev/2009-December/066943.html – "I'm f-m-u, and the event-based subsystem was my idea."

[19:56:46]

sphery:

Seems he's working for MS's advertising company?

[19:57:18]

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[20:02:37]

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[20:02:44]

Dagmar:

sphery: Huh?

[20:03:17]

sphery:

"I'd occasionally opined that a generalized hook system would be a Good Thing, but never thought anyone agreed with me."

[20:03:17]

Dagmar:

...although he's right that an event-driven system would be the way to go, I fail to see how he should be rewaraded for stating the blisteringly obvious.

[20:03:25]

sphery:

exactly

[20:03:53]

sphery:

it's just like the "I'm <whoever>, and Windows 7 was my idea" campaign--except without the implied "no it wasn't"

[20:03:54]

Dagmar:

It's something they teach you in 200-level classes.

[20:04:20]

Dagmar:

"started"/"ran" should be "started"/"ended"

[20:04:41]

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[20:04:50]

wagnerrp:

with a name like that, i dont understand how he can ever expect someone to pay attention to anything he has to say

[20:04:55]

Gorlist:

right to get channels in Kaffeine I have to set my local attender

[20:05:00]

Dagmar:

Spawn child mfdb, set flag for started, when child pid is reaped, unset flag

[20:05:24]

dougtopp:

hi all, I've got some scripts copying data into my MythVideo folder... Is there any way to have them trigger an update from the command line so that I don't have to run a scan for changes manually?

[20:05:25]

sphery:

Dagmar: it's been on the TODO list for many devs for several years, now... It's just the Capt M actually made time to do it (and do it right)

[20:05:29]

wagnerrp:

however i seem to have missed that email

[20:05:40]

wagnerrp:

you know, i seem to be missing a lot of stuff from the mailing list

[20:05:44]

Dagmar:

sphery: I can tell why it's taken this long to get there

[20:05:57]

Dagmar:

It would almost have been easier to toss out the core and start over from the main() loop

[20:06:09]

sphery:

yeah, I just didn't like the implied, "it was my idea" part of it

[20:06:43]

Dagmar:

You can probably rain on his parade by wondering aloud why it was only "occasionally" on his part

[20:06:52]

sphery:

heh

[20:07:27]

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[20:07:30]

sphery:

I can't respond... He's still upset with me for telling him that parsing the runtime field of schedules direct data and extending a timeslot when it's longer than the stated timeslot is a very bad idea

[20:08:05]

sphery:

(the runtime is the original, unedited runtime of the movie, as shown in theaters--not what's being aired)

[20:08:17]

Dagmar:

Sucks to be him then

[20:08:40]

sphery:

I also can't close http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/6898 as invalid because he'll see it as a personal affront, versus a decision by a "real dev" (his words)

[20:09:34]

** Dagmar reads carefully before declaring this to be stupid **

[20:10:11]

sphery:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/379572#379572 is his response to my "it doesn't work that way" message

[20:10:24]

Dagmar:

Okay. I still don't see it

[20:10:26]

sphery:

complete with, "No offense, Mike, but I think I'd really like to hear what a -developer- thinks of this idea."

[20:10:37]

Dagmar:

What the hell does it matter if the runtime doesn't match the scheduled time?

[20:10:52]

wagnerrp:

sphery: wouldnt closing the ticket be a declaration of 'ima developer'?

[20:11:13]

sphery:

heh, well, he'll never believe it--regardless of my trac permissions :)

[20:11:20]

sphery:

so I need someone else to close it

[20:11:21]

wagnerrp:

Dagmar: thats the thing, it does nothing

[20:11:30]

Dagmar:

Has he even looked at the data?

[20:11:34]

wagnerrp:

its just to inform the user, it doesnt actually do anything to fix the issue

[20:11:46]

wagnerrp:

if there actually is one to begin with

[20:11:57]

squidly:

sphery: I would say close it out and say I am a developer so offence taken

[20:12:00]

sphery:

kormoc even gave an official (with knowledge of SD) answer on the lists ( http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/379949#379949 ), but the ticket was created later...

[20:12:09]

Dagmar:

Someone should close it

[20:12:11]

Dagmar:

It's dumb.

[20:12:16]

sphery:

So, http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/6898 remains open and shouldn't be

[20:12:24]

Dagmar:

THe only thing notifying the user of an "inconsistency" is going to cause is confusion

[20:12:32]

sphery:

exactly

[20:12:39]

squidly:

and panic

[20:12:43]

sphery:

look at kormoc's example

[20:12:47]

Dagmar:

Extending the recording schedule is just wasting disk

[20:12:51]

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[20:12:51]

Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +v stoffel

[20:12:52]

sphery:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/379949#379949 – Dos Boot at 8hrs

[20:12:56]

Anduin:

dougtopp: Not exactly, jamu is the closest to that you will find.

[20:13:07]

sphery:

so myth ties up the recorder for 8hrs when they air the 2-hr "for TV" edit

[20:13:27]

sphery:

and that expires many recordings that shouldn't have been expired just so myth can record 6hrs of garbage

[20:13:36]

sphery:

and may cause missed recordings due to busy tuners

[20:14:20]

Dagmar:

There's not any case in which extending the schedule would accomplish anything productive

[20:14:23]

Dagmar:

He's just completely wrong.

[20:14:38]

sphery:

he claims to have seen a case where he didn't get the whole movie

[20:14:39]

Dagmar:

SD's times reflect when the broadcaster is going to be broadcasting the program

[20:14:46]

sphery:

but, IMHO, the problem was just garbage data

[20:14:49]

Dagmar:

He should complain to the broadcaster then

[20:14:56]

sphery:

exactly

[20:15:17]

wagnerrp:

need to get meshe as the perl maintainer so his 'he' statement is wrong too... :P

[20:15:19]

Dagmar:

He's making tons of straw man arguments

[20:15:21]

dougtopp:

Anduin: does jamu do directory checks and metadata downloads? (I'm looking at the wiki now)

[20:15:26]

sphery:

wagnerrp: heh, yeah

[20:15:54]

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[20:16:18]

RDV_Linux:

dougtopp: The jamu move and guess options can likely serve for what you want. Something like ./jamu -MG "/path/videofilename" "/path/videofilename" this will added the video to MythVideo and try to find the metadata and download image files.

[20:16:18]

dougtopp:

Anduin: looks like I'm answering my own question

[20:16:34]

dougtopp:

RDV_Linux: thanks

[20:16:40]

Dagmar:

sphery

[20:16:58]

Dagmar:

sphery: If this were a problem, people would repeatedly be reporting missing the ends of movies

[20:17:09]

Dagmar:

This kid's the only one missing anything that I can tell

[20:17:24]

RDV_Linux:

dougtopp: Experiment with a single file to see what works for you.

[20:17:38]

Dagmar:

I'd like him to cite his "research" data

[20:17:55]

Dagmar:

I get the feeling he's probably recording some local public cable station

[20:18:50]

squidly:

Dagmar: 10–1 yea

[20:18:55]

RDV_Linux:

dougtopp: If you also want Jamu to rename the video file to what it finds on TMDB or TVDB then use the options -MGF

[20:19:18]

Dagmar:

"I am also not sure how this is relevant, for two reasons: " <-- delusional

[20:19:54]

squidly:

Dagmar: I've cut off shows a hundred times by accident and I though it may have been an issue with myth. alos it turns out comcast likes to play with start/end times of shows

[20:20:19]

Dagmar:

This is why I've got two minutes of pre-/post-roll set

[20:20:34]

Dagmar:

I have never had it fail

[20:20:50]

squidly:

Dagmar: I would but I need more cards to do that. my two or over loaded on me and I have too many back to back recoarding on different channels

[20:20:51]

sphery:

Dagmar: that's quite possible--smaller stations may not have precise listings, so...

[20:20:56]

Dagmar:

...but the runtime info is definitely the original, as-recorded length

[20:21:02]

wagnerrp:

Dagmar: unless American Idol is on before hand, then all bets are off

[20:21:05]

Dagmar:

This i've seen many times

[20:21:16]

squidly:

wagnerrp: lol

[20:21:29]

Dagmar:

...cuz I amuse myself by looking at how much they cut out of rated-R movies when they air them

[20:21:49]

dgilmore:

sphery: football games are the only thing that could do with a default extend by 30 mins option

[20:21:57]

Dagmar:

A few have aired in less time than the full length of the original film

[20:22:18]

sphery:

Dagmar: and you have to admire the ones where they just paint underwear on a person because they couldn't cut the section of the show (as it was important to plot, though nudity wasn't)

[20:22:22]

wagnerrp:

someone was playing pitch black yesterday, and i wasnt surprised to watch claudia black not get torn in half

[20:22:29]

sphery:

dgilmore: there /is/ a hack to allow that

[20:22:30]

Dagmar:

...and then there'll be some that have a runtime fo two hours and six minutes, and will be so padded with commercials they're scheduled to go for three hours

[20:23:12]

wagnerrp:

The Abyss on FX is usually on for four hours

[20:23:13]

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[20:23:18]

wagnerrp:

theyre horrible with ads

[20:23:20]

sphery:

dgilmore: "Category of shows to be extended: For a specific category (e.g. "Sports event"), request that shows be autoextended. Only works if a show's category can be determined."

[20:23:33]

Dagmar:

He's proposing an ugly hack to get around a non-problem in another part of the system

[20:23:35]

sphery:

dgilmore: it's an ugly hack and shouldn't have been included, but it's there, now

[20:23:43]

dgilmore:

sphery: cool i did not know that

[20:24:03]

dgilmore:

i dont often want to record a football game

[20:24:09]

** sphery hopes we can eliminate it in the settings rework and people will just use an appropriate Custom Recording Rule/Power Rule **

[20:24:11]

wagnerrp:

dgilmore: there is some 3rd party script that actually monitors some website to check when a game is actually over

[20:24:12]

Dagmar:

Sports programs can and will go overtime

[20:24:12]

dgilmore:

and if i do i usually record the show after it

[20:24:18]

Dagmar:

I don't know how the machine is going to know that tho

[20:24:22]

sphery:

actually, I'm not going to hope--I'm going to ensure it's eliminated

[20:24:27]

wagnerrp:

and extend the recordings as needed

[20:24:31]

Dagmar:

I'm guessing that comes with a button to push while someone's watcing it?

[20:24:34]

sphery:

custom rules make /much/ more sense, anyway

[20:24:38]

dgilmore:

wagnerrp: cool

[20:24:53]

wagnerrp:

how well it works... i have no clue

[20:25:53]

devinheitmueller:

I should come out with a webservice where mythtv boxes can check while the program is in progress to see if it should extend the recording.

[20:26:27]

wagnerrp:

maybe something to put into services.mythtv.org

[20:26:33]

sphery:

devinheitmueller: or just help users to see the right approach--get more tuners

[20:26:42]

sphery:

(which would help your employer, right? :)

[20:26:44]

wagnerrp:

not like that wont get abused or anything...

[20:26:57]

devinheitmueller:

The service can even take a predictive approach to attempt to determine how long a program is going to run (based on heuristics and past data stored in a central repostiory).

[20:27:23]

devinheitmueller:

sphery: Well, I'm not sure how people buying more tuners is going to help my employer.

[20:27:35]

sphery:

oh, wrong employer, then...

[20:28:38]

devinheitmueller:

and KernelLabs does consulting services for Linux device support, which does not provide for any per-unit royalty.

[20:28:46]

sphery:

I was guessing based on some of the projects you're working on

[20:28:59]

sphery:

yeah, I see, now...

[20:29:38]

devinheitmueller:

I do work with a couple of people who work for a company that gets a per-unit royalty, but in this case my free-time projects are usually derived based on who is willing to give me free hardware.

[20:30:03]

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[20:30:11]

sphery:

Ah, I see... That makes sense. I had assumed you were an employee of Hauppauge.

[20:30:17]

devinheitmueller:

nope.

[20:30:48]

devinheitmueller:

I do 90% of what I do out of the goodness of my own heart in wanting tuners to work better under Linux.

[20:31:00]

sphery:

that's cool

[20:31:12]

** devinheitmueller rattles his LinuxTV tipjar.... http://www.devinheitmueller.com/linux_support_fund.html **

[20:31:14]

devinheitmueller:

;-)

[20:31:44]

sphery:

though I've heard most (all?) of the Hauppauge employees doing drivers for Hauppauge equipment on Linux do so in their free time rather than paid time

[20:31:58]

devinheitmueller:

sphery: that is correct.

[20:32:13]

wagnerrp:

alms.... alms for the programmers....

[20:32:21]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: heh.

[20:32:25]

sphery:

and, yeah, I found your web sites when I found I was wrong about my employer assumption

[20:33:18]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: the irony is that I could take my saxaphone down the street and stand outside the subway and make more than has ever come into that tipjar. ;-)

[20:33:28]

devinheitmueller:

It's all good though.

[20:34:02]

devinheitmueller:

Admittedly though, I would probably have to buy a saxaphone first, and learn to play the saxaphone.

[20:34:41]

sphery:

heh

[20:34:43]

wagnerrp:

minor details

[20:34:54]

wagnerrp:

the second part is arguably optional

[20:35:09]

sphery:

next time I'm in the city, I'll be looking for you and your saxophone

[20:35:12]

devinheitmueller:

On the upside, since I don't work for HCW, nobody gives me any crap for working on products by K-World, Terratec, AMD, or other vendors.

[20:35:29]

sphery:

that's definitely a good thing

[20:37:07]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: Come on, information, and drivers, and software, and listings data wants to be FREEEEEEEE

[20:37:22]

iamlindoro:

so stop being such a JERK and wanting your hard work and specific skillset to be rewarded

[20:37:31]

wagnerrp:

(and fonts)

[20:37:33]

** wagnerrp hides **

[20:37:36]

iamlindoro:

haha

[20:37:38]

iamlindoro:

and that

[20:38:12]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: Hey, the drivers *are* free. It's the labor that I charge for!

[20:38:35]

iamlindoro:

heh

[20:38:55]

iamlindoro:

Rather apropo, it's always the people who have done nothing themselves who want it all for free

[20:39:10]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: well, I'm not going to cast stones.

[20:39:26]

devinheitmueller:

I've taken advantage of MythTV, and I think I've submitted a total of *one* patch.

[20:39:32]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: I am infinitely more likely to indulge requests from people who have done *something*, even if it's unrelated

[20:39:54]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: You're not providing a list of demands for features, either :)

[20:39:58]

devinheitmueller:

In reality though, MythTV is more of a headache for me personally, since it's a huge source of people bitching that the drivers don't work right.

[20:40:13]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: Well, I guess I could start making demands if that makes you feel any better.

[20:40:33]

iamlindoro:

sure you can

[20:40:40]

wagnerrp:

please do 12 page write-ups with your demands

[20:40:43]

iamlindoro:

so when will the 2250 analog be done, exactly?

[20:40:45]

devinheitmueller:

Really, I'm just conspiring to make everybody switch to tvtime.

[20:40:48]

iamlindoro:

bearing in mind that it's 12:40 now

[20:40:52]

wagnerrp:

it makes the devs so much more likely to actually read them

[20:41:15]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: bug me at around 4:30, and we'll see where we're at.

[20:41:18]

iamlindoro:

heh

[20:41:33]

devinheitmueller:

That would be 4:30 on 12/28/2011.

[20:41:49]

sid3windr:

lol =)

[20:42:06]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: So weird, that's the due date for your feature request list!

[20:42:11]

iamlindoro:

what are the odds?

[20:42:15]

devinheitmueller:

what a coincidence!

[20:42:19]

wagnerrp:

i mean my god... its one thing to be descriptive, but f-m-u has diarrhea of the fingers, he just never stops typing

[20:42:30]

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[20:42:42]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: as long as we get it in before the end of the world

[20:42:47]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: shall I send him a Statement of Work with a quote?

[20:43:00]

Dagmar:

It's called the "Last Man Standing" argumentation technique

[20:43:45]

Dagmar:

You just keep typing up more and more arguments, dismissing any counter-claims as being inaccurate or inapplicable, until everyone else is tired of responding, and then you use the lack of responses to declare yourself to be correct

[20:44:09]

iamlindoro:

yesterday's "listings should be free because I'm disabled" was a great example of "gimmeitfreeeeee!"

[20:44:09]

wagnerrp:

with no one left around to do the work youre wanting

[20:44:15]

devinheitmueller:

Well, you should just agree with him and wait for his patch then.

[20:44:20]

Dagmar:

The only way to beat them is to bullet point their arguments, dismantle them one at a time, and then tell them to get a f**king job

[20:45:00]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: which thread was that? I must have missed it!

[20:45:09]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: It was in channel

[20:45:10]

sid3windr:

lol

[20:45:10]

Dagmar:

It wasn't a thread. it was someone in here arguing yesterday

[20:45:15]

devinheitmueller:

ah, ok.

[20:45:17]

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[20:45:18]

sid3windr:

seriously? =)

[20:45:27]

** devinheitmueller runs to the channel logs.... **

[20:45:37]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: http://mythtv.beirdo.ca/ircLog/channel/1/2009-12-27

[20:45:37]

** sid3windr pressed pgup a few times **

[20:45:40]

Dagmar:

By the way, the reason you tell those people to "get a f**king job" is because it doesn't _matter_ if your rebuttals are correct or not

[20:45:43]

iamlindoro:

start at 20:13:00ish

[20:45:54]

iamlindoro:

er 20:10:00ish

[20:45:58]

Dagmar:

They'll dismiss your arguments and continue on as if no one ever showed their view to be invalid

[20:46:06]

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[20:46:09]

devinheitmueller:

Lord.

[20:46:25]

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[20:46:29]

wagnerrp:

so being crippled affords them additional rights?

[20:46:33]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: I tried sooooo hard in that conversation to be reasonable

[20:46:34]

devinheitmueller:

He can afford to build a MythTV box but not pay the damn $20/year for a SchedulesDirect subscription?

[20:46:42]

Dagmar:

He got everything else donated

[20:46:54]

Dagmar:

I'm thinking if he can afford cable he can probably afford the twenty bucks

[20:46:59]

iamlindoro:

That was more or less my argument, and fundamentally, even if he can't, it doesn't change things so no use complaining

[20:47:01]

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[20:47:09]

devinheitmueller:

Well, he's probably got a bunch of free time on his hands, so he can learn to code and become a developer, at which point he is entitled to a free subscription.

[20:47:17]

iamlindoro:

it's not Myth's fault costly things cost money

[20:47:18]

devinheitmueller:

Wow, that was pretty low, even for me. Sorry about that.

[20:47:28]

iamlindoro:

nawww

[20:47:31]

iamlindoro:

par for the channel

[20:47:47]

Dagmar:

I have to do something about my lack of proper body telemetry

[20:47:53]

iamlindoro:

make sure to keep reading until he says I killed his interest in Myth

[20:47:58]

** dgilmore is happy to pay the $20 a year **

[20:48:14]

Dagmar:

I just whacked the bony part of my left hand on a countertop, and there's gonna be such a hideous mark

[20:48:18]

Dagmar:

Right on the damn vein

[20:49:11]

** sid3windr just read the log, har dee har **

[20:49:19]

sid3windr:

apparently, you should charge for myth.

[20:49:26]

sid3windr:

because it's not a cost-saving measure =)

[20:50:24]

devinheitmueller:

Hell, I'm all about working toward making sure the product works well for disabled individuals (hence all the work I do on closed captioning). But it doesn't change the fact that the scheduling data has a cost, and needs to be paid for.

[20:51:00]

iamlindoro:

this is the choirbox, the congregation is that way

[20:51:37]

devinheitmueller:

heh

[20:51:53]

sid3windr:

iamlindoro: it seems like you are still irritated that he won the argument...........

[20:51:56]

sid3windr:

=)

[20:51:56]

** sid3windr hides **

[20:52:06]

Dagmar:

You must have been reading some other log

[20:52:07]

iamlindoro:

yeah, that one's going to sting for a while

[20:52:18]

iamlindoro:

I know it's true, because he told me so himself

[20:52:23]

devinheitmueller:

Yeah iamlindoro, why are you so discriminatory against disabled people?

[20:52:40]

iamlindoro:

childhood wheelchair beatings

[20:52:49]

devinheitmueller:

Dagmar: "PiousMinion: I've already won the arguement. Topic is now dead.... and so is my interest in mythtv."

[20:52:56]

sid3windr:

=)

[20:53:20]

devinheitmueller:

And that's "argument" with the less common "ue" spelling...

[20:53:31]

Dagmar:

I was assuming by "won" he meant he was trying to prove he was too whiny to be treated as an adult

[20:54:03]

iamlindoro:

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by an argrue

[20:54:12]

devinheitmueller:

HA!

[20:54:40]

sid3windr:

go west!

[20:55:32]

Dagmar:

I am now being threatened with paperwork

[20:56:02]

devinheitmueller:

Crap. I forgot the worst part about releasing new drivers: all the damn inexperienced users asking how to build the v4l-dvb tree from source!

[20:56:37]

Dagmar:

"Consult the FAQ"

[20:57:01]

Dagmar:

...or you could give the kind of answer I usually do... "If you don't know, now is not the time to learn."

[20:57:16]

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[20:57:30]

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[20:57:38]

devinheitmueller:

Yeah, I do that sometimes. Usually it follows providing some basic instructions then the user asking what "make" is.

[20:57:41]

[R]:

this is the second time my backend has thought it wasn't idle when it very clearly was

[20:57:51]

[R]:

is it possible for it to "think" a client is connected but it really isn't?

[20:58:08]

Dagmar:

devinheitmueller: If they don't know that, then they probably shoudln't be wasting grown-up's time

[20:58:18]

Dagmar:

THey should be Googling

[20:58:44]

Dagmar:

If you want to be a carpenter, you're supposed to start by making birdhouses, NOT nuclear reactor cores.

[20:59:03]

devinheitmueller:

Well, these are users who just want their device to work. Most of them come from Windows, where the answer to a new driver coming out is "run setup.exe and hit next->next->next->finish"

[20:59:25]

Dagmar:

Tell them to run apt-get dist-upgrade or something then.

[20:59:35]

devinheitmueller:

I wouldn't recommend even an experienced carpenter attempt to design a nuclear reactor core.

[20:59:44]

Dagmar:

I'm assuming there's a bit of documentation saying "UNtar this here, cd to here, type this" right?

[20:59:45]

sid3windr:

Dagmar: carpenters make nuclear reactor cores?!

[20:59:47]

devinheitmueller:

I feel like there is probably some sort of Engineering degree better suited.

[21:00:02]

Dagmar:

sid3windr: About as often as Windows users should be compiling kernel-space binaries

[21:00:03]

devinheitmueller:

Maybe that's what went wrong at Three Mile Island.

[21:00:40]

sid3windr:

=)

[21:00:53]

iamlindoro:

As much as I myself am victim to the "why don't you KNOW this, man" disease, I *do* take making linux (and myth specifically) easy and approachable very seriously, and know that the aforementioned attitude is not good for the OS as a whole

[21:01:05]

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[21:01:08]

Dagmar:

I might be a bastard, but I think I taught all of two people how to compile things from source in conjunction with Dropline

[21:01:19]

Dagmar:

I mean, the whole damn point is to have binaries so you don't have to compile it

[21:01:51]

devinheitmueller:

I sympathize for those who have such difficulty getting Linux/MythTV/tuners up and running. I was there myself at one point. It really sucks.

[21:02:00]

Dagmar:

There isn't any point in teaching the random clueless in how to compile it themselves personally

[21:02:08]

sid3windr:

"wait for the next ubuntu" :)

[21:02:28]

Dagmar:

It's just as useful as building a local copy by havign a semi-literate person do the typing while you dictate it to them, and then typing rm -rf . as the final instruction

[21:02:30]

devinheitmueller:

It took me about a week to get my first MythTV box working, and I consider myself "reasonably technical".

[21:02:57]

mag0o:

only reasonably?

[21:03:07]

mag0o:

dude, you're writing drivers for the kernel

[21:03:13]

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[21:03:23]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: strongly recommend harassing sphery to finish(/start) libmysql integration

[21:03:24]

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[21:03:24]

Dagmar:

hehe that doesn't really expand to as many other disciplines as all that

[21:03:40]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: as IMO that would be a gigantic step towards making myth easily installable

[21:04:30]

devinheitmueller:

Hell, my first MythTV box didn't even have a separate backend. I had to deal with the frontend crashing on startup continuously until I had to recompile from source and see that the MythTV *really* doesn't handle cases well if Xvideo is not available.

[21:04:40]

Dagmar:

hahah

[21:04:47]

devinheitmueller:

.... or at least it didn't in 2006.

[21:05:06]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: *should* be okay without it now, although video playback would predictably suck

[21:05:20]

devinheitmueller:

Don't me wrong: the answer is obviously "go out and buy a different video card", but look how much work I had to do to figure that out.

[21:05:57]

iamlindoro:

Myth could get away with having its maze of options if it were dead easy to set up, and vice versa-- just that fixing one or the other is a boatload of work

[21:06:31]

iamlindoro:

For my money, integrating the DB solves on major bag of problems, and if you guys manage to get the per-device UUID thing working and we can do some better autodetection, I think we can massively improve setup too

[21:06:56]

devinheitmueller:

I certainly understand why it is the way it is, and I'm not casting blame at the developers. But I can certainly understand the frustration of users when they realize what sort of commitment can be required to even get up and running.

[21:07:17]

Dagmar:

devinheitmueller: ...and yet, it would be taken as a personal affront if someone went up on the wiki and put up a flowchart that directed people to go out and buy some other video card once they selected the "I have an ATI card" option

[21:07:38]

iamlindoro:

The real frustration on both sides comes from users complaining that XBMC is dead easy to install and run, and our frustration that they don't understand how much more our backend has to do than a simple media manager/player

[21:07:45]

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[21:07:51]

iamlindoro:

not to mention XBMC and Myth being apples and oranges purposewise

[21:08:11]

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[21:08:12]

iamlindoro:

That said, there is huge room to improve

[21:08:38]

Dagmar:

iamlindoro: I don't suppose setting up a "stupid user mode" that assumes a PVR-150 and locks you out of every other config dialog would be well recieved?

[21:08:58]

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[21:09:14]

iamlindoro:

Dagmar: It wouldn't be. I had 80% of an idiot-proof setup (that didn't even require a specific card) done a few months ago, and it got vetoed

[21:09:25]

Dagmar:

Figures

[21:09:34]

iamlindoro:

Sanity checked every step, wizard style, wouldn't let you continue unless everything was working properly, etc.

[21:10:45]

iamlindoro:

The idea is that we incorporate the same sanity checking and wizard style into a web based setup served out by the backend

[21:10:46]

superdump:

why did it get vetoed?

[21:10:52]

iamlindoro:

see above

[21:11:12]

iamlindoro:

trouble is, I have no idea how to write a web server/served version of what I wrote

[21:11:18]

iamlindoro:

so instead, we'll get nothing at all

[21:12:10]

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[21:12:21]

jamesbond:

thats a nice result

[21:12:28]

iamlindoro:

http://www.fecitfacta.com/simplesetupexample.ogg

[21:13:20]

iamlindoro:

You'll note the sanity checkign/etc in that screencast

[21:13:48]

AndyCap:

what will serve the browser? mythbackend, mythsetup or php+mysql?

[21:13:55]

iamlindoro:

mythbackend

[21:14:49]

jamesbond:

iamlindoro: thats a nice system you got there

[21:14:55]

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[21:15:16]

iamlindoro:

resnoo: You mean the setup code, or..?

[21:15:25]

AndyCap:

iamlindoro: nice setup though. simple enough that requiring remote usability makes sense. :P

[21:15:28]

resnoo:

the system

[21:15:37]

iamlindoro:

dunno what you mean by the system

[21:15:46]

iamlindoro:

AndyCap: Yep. Alas.

[21:15:50]

resnoo:

the link you just provided earlier

[21:15:59]

resnoo:

the screen cast.

[21:16:26]

iamlindoro:

K... took system to mean hardware of some sort

[21:16:38]

iamlindoro:

Looks like you mean the code... so thanks

[21:16:59]

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[21:41:29]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: I am certainly a fan of some sort of Wizard which gets the first tuner up and running, so that you can start using MythTV. From there, it ok to be harder to get the other stuff working (having to dig through menus).

[21:42:15]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: The notion was 90%+ of all setups don't need access to the many complex setup options, and should instead be presented in plain english, and be impossible to get wrong with liberal sanity checking

[21:42:42]

devinheitmueller:

Agreed. Provide enough functionality to get "up and running" and from there people can dig around and do the advanced stuff if needed.

[21:43:06]

devinheitmueller:

Look at the Tivo setup process as a model.

[21:43:09]

iamlindoro:

The Kaffeine channel scanner is a good example of fully functional while still being pretty understandable

[21:43:44]

iamlindoro:

The Simple setup wizard I wrote was more or less Windows MCE inspired-- a single digit number of steps, with a narrative to draw them together

[21:43:50]

devinheitmueller:

The channel scanner itself is good, although the rest sucks in the sense that you have to know to dig into the menu to specify the card, and then find the other menu which defines the source, and then the third menu which does the channel scan.

[21:44:12]

iamlindoro:

I agree, but I've done my part to try to change it and now wash my hands of it

[21:44:21]

devinheitmueller:

In reality, Kaffeine should see that you're in an unconfigured state and walk you through the steps (similar to what any Windows tuner application would do)

[21:45:03]

iamlindoro:

I have yet to hear of anyone expressing interest in actually working on the alleged web setup

[21:45:09]

devinheitmueller:

I've certainly known users who have started Kaffeine for the first time and then said "uh, now what?".

[21:45:28]

iamlindoro:

sure

[21:46:05]

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[21:46:05]

devinheitmueller:

It's an uphill challenge since the developers' setups all work so they're satisfied.

[21:46:15]

AndyCap:

would this web setup mean one doesn't have to work within the constraints of left/right/up/down/enter on a ntsc screen?

[21:46:31]

iamlindoro:

The web setup would all be done from a browser

[21:46:50]

iamlindoro:

so wouldn't be done from a TV display at all

[21:46:51]

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[21:47:15]

devinheitmueller:

This is one reason I liked the Freevo model as opposed to using QT – the cost of developing user interfaces for things such as wizards is much higher in the MythTV model.

[21:47:39]

iamlindoro:

I don't know about that, writing MythUI screens is really dead easy

[21:47:42]

wagnerrp:

i dont know about that

[21:47:56]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: you put together that wizard-type thing mostly over a weekend didnt you?

[21:47:57]

MTughan__:

We're trying to get the remote that came with a PVR-350 working again. We did have it working in KnoppMyth with the lirc_pvr150 module, but that doesn't seem to be included with MythBuntu. Does anyone know where we can get that or another module that'll work with the PVR-350?

[21:48:06]

devinheitmueller:

Well, in Freevo, it was all Python, so you didn't need to build a GUI in QT and write C++ code.

[21:48:08]

iamlindoro:

yep, the wizard was all done and functioning in 48 hoursish

[21:48:30]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: Language preferences aside, you don't need to build a Qt UI in myth either, since Qt doesn't provide the UI

[21:49:03]

iamlindoro:

MythUI does-- and I'd wager the MythUI interface code is just as simple as any python UI, while being more themable

[21:49:28]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: Well, perhaps I had some misconception then.

[21:49:48]

iamlindoro:

you define the names of each type of object in the header, assign them a theme string name in the C++, and that's really all the UI work there is

[21:50:16]

iamlindoro:

ie MythUITextEdit *m_myText; (in the header)

[21:50:48]

iamlindoro:

then you just assign it to a string used in the theme file in the .cpp, and call settext/gettext whenever necessary

[21:51:30]

iamlindoro:

likewise something like a button-- define it, assign it to a theme string, and connect it to whatever method you want to fire when it's clicked

[21:52:24]

iamlindoro:

so a grand total of 2–3 lines for each UI element you want to add to a screen (which obviously doesn't take into account writing the actual code that does anything with them)

[21:53:03]

iamlindoro:

then the actual UI design/placement is on the themer

[21:55:41]

devinheitmueller:

Perhaps then this is consistent with my expectation – in order to do anything actually useful with the GUI, you still have to write a bunch of C++ code.

[21:56:01]

devinheitmueller:

The actual *layout* of the GUI isn't in C++, but all the actual business logic is.

[21:56:36]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: Well, define bunch? And what does it matter that it's C++ rather than python?

[21:56:44]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: barrier to entry.

[21:56:45]

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[21:57:01]

wagnerrp:

yeah, but with the extent that it has all the Qt stuff, its practically managed code already

[21:57:02]

iamlindoro:

C++ isn't any harder than python AFAICT

[21:57:05]

Anduin:

most people cut and paste in both

[21:57:15]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: some less experienced scripting guy can hack together a UI without having to recompile MythTV from source.

[21:57:28]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: primarily due to fear

[21:57:54]

wagnerrp:

'oh, i could never write c++, but i can do python just fine'

[21:58:23]

devinheitmueller:

Well, *I'm* certainly not afraid of C++, but you have to acknowledge that the barrier to entry is higher.

[21:58:40]

iamlindoro:

Anduin: Heh

[21:58:41]

devinheitmueller:

... and recompiling MythTV can be a nontrivial operation..

[21:58:44]

wagnerrp:

higher? sure.... but i dont think its all that much higher

[21:58:54]

wagnerrp:

and with ccache, recompiling mythtv does almost become trivial

[21:59:16]

wagnerrp:

i mean most changes arent going to take more than 10–20 seconds on a decent machine

[21:59:40]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: for a developer who has the environment properly setup, that is true (and ccache makes it faster from a performance standpoint). But it can still be one of the more painful projects to compile in terms of the deps.

[21:59:43]

iamlindoro:

Would I love to have python UI bindings in Myth? Sure. But when you are actually ready to make a commitment to write code for myth, if you're starting from clueless either way, I'm not sure the barrier to entry is higher at all/much higher

[22:00:14]

devinheitmueller:

Hell, even the whole /usr versus /usr/local has had me screwed over more than once where I have multiple versions of the libraries installed in different paths.

[22:00:31]

iamlindoro:

Trac contains evidence of my initial cluelessness, you just have to keep at it and as nduin alluded to, there's tons of easy to understand examples of just about every common MythUI activity in the code to steal from

[22:00:36]

iamlindoro:

er Anduin

[22:00:42]

devinheitmueller:

Can it be built? Sure. Is it trivial for someone new to the process? Absolutely not.

[22:00:51]

sid3windr:

if you build it, they will come!

[22:01:27]

iamlindoro:

This is one of many aeas we could improve, however

[22:01:30]

iamlindoro:

er areas

[22:02:01]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: I am arguing that in fact you are *not* clueless – I'm arguing that the process is definitely not as trivial as some people seem to be asserting.

[22:02:16]

iamlindoro:

Providing a small, light ubuntu VM to download that is already set up with a development environment and some concrete instructions on how to get/update/build the source would probably help a bit with people who want to tinker

[22:02:17]

wagnerrp:

sure, its certainly not trivial

[22:02:27]

Dagmar:

hahahah

[22:02:32]

wagnerrp:

were just saying it only *looks* daunting, and so scares people off that could otherwise do it

[22:02:43]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: No, I'm disagreeing and saying that I most definitely was when I first opened the myth code (and some might argue even now ;) )

[22:02:51]

Dagmar:

If you did that, there would be tons of questions about "how do I get completely unrelated to this project package X running in the VM"

[22:02:58]

Dagmar:

....and "how do I run the VM"

[22:03:11]

iamlindoro:

How to run the VM would be a documentation issue

[22:03:19]

Dagmar:

Like people read

[22:03:29]

iamlindoro:

there are numerous projects that provide a similar VM development environement, it's not a bad idea at all

[22:03:39]

wagnerrp:

i have given some thought to writing some form of python mythui implementation

[22:03:40]

iamlindoro:

Well, guess we'd just have to learn to be patient then, or improve our docs

[22:04:06]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: it more than *looks* daunting. It actually *is* daunting if you don't have all the deps installed up front. It can be a multi-hour process of issues like, "oh, I need to find the package that provides the development libraries for gettext()".

[22:04:12]

iamlindoro:

As much as I can be surly and nasty when caught on the wrong day/by a person with the wrong attitude, people not being able to figure things out *is* our fault

[22:04:24]

Dagmar:

...or genetics.

[22:04:30]

iamlindoro:

Even if they're brain dead, if they can't figure it out, we need to make it better/simpler

[22:04:43]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: i guess i have a different point of view, coming from distros that only function in source

[22:04:57]

devinheitmueller:

At least on Ubuntu, the shortcut I eventually found was to do the "build-dep" step for the bundled Ubuntu package, and then checkout and compile from source.

[22:04:59]

iamlindoro:

Because there's such a thing as going too far towards idiot-proofing something, but myth has a long, long way to go before that becomes an issue

[22:05:09]

wagnerrp:

gentoo portage, and freebsd ports, are both source based package managers

[22:05:22]

wagnerrp:

and those are the only two systems ive spent much time one

[22:05:32]

iamlindoro:

We need to start taking ownership of the fundamental usability and setup flaws, and I don't say that as Joe User, I say that as someone who is engaged in trying to do just that

[22:05:50]

devinheitmueller:

wagnerrp: sure, on source based distros you're more likely to have all the dev headers installed by default.

[22:06:28]

wagnerrp:

the only real issues ive ever come up against trying to build and install mythtv is some missing perl modules that mythweb wants

[22:06:47]

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[22:06:54]

devinheitmueller:

Again, I'm not blaming anybody (developers) for the state that it is in – it's that way because it's not a priority and I don't really blame them. But let's not pretend it's all hunkey-dorey and trivial to build and if you cannot do it in ten minutes then you must be an idiot.

[22:07:13]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: I wasn't arguing anything near that

[22:07:18]

wagnerrp:

i *have* spent hours just trying to get something like gvim installed at work on SuSe because YAST doesnt work too well with no internet access

[22:07:43]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: I think it *needs* to be a priority (well, not the building part, but the usability and setup stuff, and the approachability of the community)

[22:08:08]

iamlindoro:

Not to sound dire, but we either need to address those things or become irrelevant

[22:08:11]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: well, in terms of priority, I agree that the time would be better spent making setup easy so that users never need to build from source at all.

[22:08:42]

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[22:08:47]

devinheitmueller:

In fact, I never would have even tried to build from source except I hit crashes that left me with no alternative.

[22:09:01]

iamlindoro:

The aims are synergistic-- If you fix the community, encourage new development, and fix the fundamental issues, you attract new devs and users, and the community begins to "self-police"

[22:09:46]

iamlindoro:

Not to air dirty laundry, but the biggest obstacle at the moment for me is overcoming current developer apathy

[22:10:14]

iamlindoro:

You have no idea how hard it is to get even a yes/no response to a proposal from most of the curent "active" devs

[22:10:32]

iamlindoro:

After a while it starts to feel like banging your head against the wall

[22:10:40]

devinheitmueller:

The setup issues increase the likelihood that you need to build from source. Like that jerk who was complaining about how he misconfigured the IP/TCP port for his backend. Sure, he was an whiner and took out his frustration on the developers, but to figure that out he would have likely had to compile from source and break in with the debugger.

[22:11:22]

wagnerrp:

im a few thousand lines into the python bindings rewrite, and i havent heard anything from devs that arent active in this channel

[22:11:30]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: the apathy comes from being satisfied that it works well enough for them – I cannot really blame them.

[22:11:58]

devinheitmueller:

Well, I'm not sure I am comfortable to use the term "apathy". But I think you get my point.

[22:11:59]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: This isn't a manpower issue, they're project goal proposals/questions

[22:12:01]

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[22:13:07]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: I feel like the two are intertwined: You need manpower to accomplish goals, so it's hard to define goals unless there is some developer standing there interested in actually doing the work. In a OSS project, nobody wants to be "assigned" someone else's pet project.

[22:13:12]

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[22:13:23]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: No, not work stuff at all

[22:13:39]

iamlindoro:

devinheitmueller: vetting of new devs, public-facing project/announcements, etc.

[22:14:05]

Dagmar:

devinheitmueller

[22:14:10]

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[22:14:14]

iamlindoro:

Things that more or less need consensus or discussion, not homework assignments

[22:14:27]

Dagmar:

devinheitmueller: ...or, he could have gone to http://www.rif.org and taken some recommendations from them on how to learn to read

[22:14:32]

devinheitmueller:

iamlindoro: Ah, I see where you are coming from now.

[22:14:54]

Dagmar:

I admit there's problems similar to that, but his case fell somewhere between being illiterate or being dumb as a post

[22:15:16]

devinheitmueller:

Dagmar: Documentation is something that you fall back on because your software wasn't smart enough to tell you what the problem was.

[22:15:18]

Dagmar:

Probably half from each column

[22:15:42]

Dagmar:

devinheitmueller: The default value there is actually fine. He *changed* it due to whatever the voices in his head were telling him

[22:15:44]

devinheitmueller:

Dagmar: What *should* have happened is the software should have given him an error message indicative of the problem.

[22:16:04]

Dagmar:

ABout the only thing to do there would be to just get rid of that configuration option entirely

[22:16:28]

devinheitmueller:

If he had seen an error message that said, "Error: Cannot connect to backend at 192.168.1.5:2000" rather than just dumping him back to the main menu, he probably would have figured out pretty quick what was wrong.

[22:16:40]

Dagmar:

That did appear in the log iirc

[22:16:52]

wagnerrp:

devinheitmueller: there are messages like that in the logs

[22:16:54]

Dagmar:

...except it said "Can't bind to port 3306"

[22:16:56]

devinheitmueller:

Dagmar: You mean the mythbackend.log I presume.

[22:17:13]

wagnerrp:

the frontend logs to the terminal, or can be logged to the file, or can be redirected on the command line

[22:17:16]

wagnerrp:

just like the backend

[22:17:33]

wagnerrp:

but no one seems to want to look in the logs

[22:17:35]

devinheitmueller:

Expecting a regular user to dig through an obscure log file with a bad signal/noise ratio is no excuse for showing an error message on the screen.

[22:18:03]

Dagmar:

Yeah well, either way I think the simpler/better solution is to just remove the dialog that lets people set the wrong port

[22:18:05]

wagnerrp:

id say a good quarter of the help requests in here, the first thing we say is look in the log

[22:18:20]

wagnerrp:

sure, the default for the logs could be made more verbose

[22:18:23]

Dagmar:

More than just 1/4

[22:18:28]

Dagmar:

Way more than just 1/4

[22:18:30]

devinheitmueller:

I guess alot of this just boils down to what constitutes "intuitive". An advanced user is much more likely to do those things (assuming he even knows where the log files are).

[22:18:33]

wagnerrp:

or perhaps split in two, one for general activity logs, one for errors

[22:19:08]

wagnerrp:

s/more verbose/less verbose/

[22:20:07]

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[22:20:10]

Dagmar:

How many legitimate reasons shoudl there be for picking a different port number for that anyway

[22:20:14]

wagnerrp:

the setup rewrite that iamlindoro did was intended to make things more intuitive, and add a lot of additional sanity checks into the settings to warn people when they were doing something wrong

[22:20:22]

Dagmar:

It's not like anyone's likely to run more than one backend or frontend per machine

[22:20:26]

devinheitmueller:

The reality is I don't have enough personal vested interest to do the work and submit patches. That doesn't mean though that the developers should delude themselves into thinking the software is easier to use and anybody who asks a question must be an idiot.

[22:20:31]

wagnerrp:

but it pretty much got dismissed in favor of a web configuration

[22:20:53]

wagnerrp:

which will likely never get written, or at least not any time soon

[22:21:45]

devinheitmueller:

My brother-in-law is an idiot, and yet he got his tivo up and running in 45 minutes. It's all about expectations of target audience.

[22:22:05]

Dagmar:

devinheitmueller: That would be a motion on favor of throwing out 3/4 of the configuration dialogs then

[22:22:46]

Dagmar:

People get into trouble changing them.

[22:22:55]

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[22:23:02]

devinheitmueller:

Dagmar: ....or introducing a wizard which gets a basic config up and running...

[22:23:11]

Dagmar:

For what you're proposing, someone would have to take responsibility for declaring what "sane default" behaviours are, and making it *painful* for the user to change them

[22:23:26]

wagnerrp:

Dagmar: iamlindoro tried to do just that about a month ago

[22:23:31]

wagnerrp:

see the thread on the mailing list

[22:23:45]

Dagmar:

It probably got shot down didn't it

[22:24:04]

Dagmar:

It's a trend I've noticed.

[22:24:12]

Dagmar:

Mplayer has tiers of configuration complexity.

[22:24:14]

wagnerrp:

there was a lot of discussion, and then it got shot down once he tried to actually do something with it

[22:24:35]

Dagmar:

At least, IIRC it's Mplayer's gui that does that

[22:24:44]

wagnerrp:

zoomplayer has something similar

[22:24:48]

wagnerrp:

a 'basic' settings menu

[22:25:02]

Dagmar:

It's probably the way Myth should work. Things like port numbers and so forth should just never appear in the defaault mode because all a user is ever going to do is screw them upo

[22:25:11]

wagnerrp:

and then an 'advanced' button with a popup on first click, something like 'are you sure you should be here'

[22:25:28]

wagnerrp:

of course thats as much a placebo as anything else, since all users are advanced users

[22:25:50]

wagnerrp:

im all for dropping the port setting from the UI entirely

[22:26:05]

wagnerrp:

if you need to access it? youre editing the database directly

[22:26:42]

wagnerrp:

similarly drop the IP settings, enumerate the available addresses for the local ip, and provide a list of ips from the database to choose from for the master

[22:26:58]

wagnerrp:

make NONE OF WHICH be 127.0.0.1

[22:27:34]

wagnerrp:

if you dont have a network card, well then too bad, enter the 20th century where they come on every motherboard

[22:27:38]

wagnerrp:

21st

[22:27:39]

Dagmar:

That bit of code just needs to be shot

[22:27:48]

Dagmar:

It should just bind to 0.0.0.0 by default, not a specific interface

[22:28:22]

wagnerrp:

its not so much what address it should bind to

[22:28:26]

Dagmar:

If someone knows of a reason why they should bind to a specific interface, THEN they can probably specify it

[22:28:27]

wagnerrp:

as what address it should be accessed from

[22:28:40]

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[22:28:47]

Dagmar:

Why would you need to enumerate what interfaces are available then?

[22:28:49]

wagnerrp:

you cant very well access anything from 0.0.0.0

[22:28:54]

Dagmar:

1. Yes you can.

[22:29:05]

Dagmar:

2. It's not about hte origin point.

[22:29:22]

wagnerrp:

unless you want to make upnp mandatory

[22:29:29]

Dagmar:

All socket connections *will* pick an appropriate source address on their own

[22:29:35]

wagnerrp:

and if youre always going to list on the network, theres no reason why thats not an option

[22:29:45]

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[22:30:16]

Dagmar:

You don't need to specify an address for that.

[22:30:19]

Dagmar:

I'm serious.

[22:30:23]

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[22:30:26]

sid3windr:

indeedies

[22:30:29]

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[22:30:34]

wagnerrp:

the client needs to know how where the backend is

[22:30:35]

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[22:30:40]

Dagmar:

That's right.

[22:30:43]

wagnerrp:

one way or another

[22:30:48]

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[22:30:53]

sid3windr:

that's the destination ip, not the source ;)

[22:30:59]

sid3windr:

anyway

[22:31:04]

sid3windr:

make it an avahi service ;)

[22:31:11]

sid3windr:

mythtv zeroconf!

[22:31:16]

wagnerrp:

s/avahi/upnp/, and it already is

[22:31:23]

sid3windr:

yes, but zeroconf is the future!

[22:31:34]

sid3windr:

.. or so I 'm told – I uninstall avahi on every box I get a chance to ;)

[22:31:55]

mzb:

nice work on 23012 :) ... does it work?

[22:31:58]

Dagmar:

The avahi thing isn't a bad idea

[22:32:29]

Dagmar:

Anyway, you still don't need to know your own source address to listen on a socket OR to make outbound connections.

[22:32:31]

mzb:

(event-driven system)

[22:32:31]

antgel:

so, my setup is nearly working now. however, DVB subtitles on HD channels appear some way off the screen. is anyone aware of a fix for this, or perhaps could offer enough of a clue that i might go poking around the right place in the source to fix it?

[22:32:42]

wagnerrp:

and has been in mythtv since 0.20.2? (0.21?) but it never went anywhere

[22:32:44]

Dagmar:

There are methods which are trivial which make the OS basically fill in that blank for you.

[22:32:58]

sid3windr:

wagnerrp: hmm, my fe found my backend by itself with upnp.. :)

[22:33:11]

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[22:33:16]

wagnerrp:

no, it found information of how to access the database over upnp

[22:33:19]

sid3windr:

Dagmar: yeah, indeed, but I think wagnerrp was more talking about the discovery of the ip of the backend :)

[22:33:22]

wagnerrp:

then the database told it where the backend was

[22:33:23]

sid3windr:

wagnerrp: well, yeah, that

[22:33:26]

wagnerrp:

somewhat backwards

[22:33:38]

sid3windr:

I'm still all for not having the frontend access the database, but as im all talk and no patch... ;)

[22:34:24]

Dagmar:

Honestly it would probably be easier to just set up avahi hooks

[22:34:37]

Dagmar:

It's actually a lot damn simpler than it first appears

[22:34:47]

Toast:

I am planning to upgrade my backend from 0.21-fixes to 0.22-fixes. The userguide suggest a database backup. Is there anything else I should be aware of when doing an upgrade from source on a debian Lenny system?

[22:34:58]

sid3windr:

Dagmar: cool. maybe I had a good idea for once =)

[22:35:14]

wagnerrp:

Toast: when you upgrade, mythtv will automatically backup the database

[22:35:25]

wagnerrp:

thats the first thing it does before trying to update it

[22:35:26]

Dagmar:

Well, I actually *started* to just put those things in over here for the hell of it when I built my first packages

[22:35:28]

sid3windr:

it's a bit silly there's all the different stuff

[22:35:35]

sid3windr:

dlna/zeroconf/upnp/..

[22:35:46]

AndyCap:

dlna is just evil upnp. :)

[22:35:51]

Toast:

wagnerrp: that's very cool... I may do another backup for my own sanity though :)

[22:35:51]

Dagmar:

The only reason I didn't bother completing it and publishing it was that was basically useless information to publish over zeroconf mechanisms

[22:36:09]

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[22:36:11]

iamlindoro:

mzb: No, we're just hoping it works

[22:36:14]

iamlindoro:

what do you think?

[22:36:16]

mzb:

;)

[22:36:17]

Dagmar:

Nothing would be looking for it--it would just be icons that would show up on a screen for decoration

[22:36:22]

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[22:36:38]

mzb:

I'll give it a go asaic

[22:36:39]

Dagmar:

dbus hooks are harder to write

[22:37:26]

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[22:37:32]

AndyCap:

Dagmar: who are you going to talk to on the bus?

[22:37:58]

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[22:38:32]

afm:

mythbackend logs when starting live tv. i have an hdpv and a qip7100 stb. 2009-12–28 17:33:00.196 Channel(/dev/video0)::Tune(): Error -1 while setting frequency (v2): Invalid argument

[22:38:32]

afm:

2009-12–28 17:33:00.254 TVRec(1) Error: Failed to set channel to 3. Reverting to kState_None

[22:38:33]

afm:

any ideas?

[22:39:01]

Dagmar:

AndyCap: That's pretty much why I stopped there

[22:39:22]

iamlindoro:

You set a preset tuner frequency on a device without a tuner

[22:39:23]

AndyCap:

Dagmar: the problem with public transportation.

[22:39:35]

Dagmar:

It was very easy to write the hooks so that Avahi would advertise the location of the DB, the frontend, and the backend

[22:40:00]

Dagmar:

AndyCap: Perhaps you should google for 'dbus'

[22:40:20]

sphery:

AndyCap: I like that description of DLNA

[22:40:27]

wagnerrp:

honestly, id really like to implement some kind of security on my network, currently there is exactly zero

[22:40:53]

wagnerrp:

nothing restricting who boots from what, accesses what shares, accesses myth

[22:40:59]

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[22:41:11]

sphery:

afm: I'd guess you've set the starting channel

[22:41:19]

Hilikus:

is there a way to display a notification on mythfrontend while you watch tv?

[22:41:54]

AndyCap:

Dagmar: is the public.. :-P

[22:42:00]

sphery:

afm: er, I mean the tune channel

[22:42:08]

AndyCap:

Dagmar: and yes I know what dbus is. :)

[22:42:09]

wagnerrp:

Hilikus: mythtvosd

[22:42:25]

sphery:

afm: i.e. "Preset tuner to channel: Leave this blank unless you have an external tuner that is connected to the tuner input of your card. If so, you will need to specify the preset channel for the signal (normally 3 or 4)."

[22:42:34]

afm:

ok...removed...i actually have a firewire to the stb from a prevous box and it set channel to one, but no picture

[22:42:35]

afm:

neat

[22:43:30]

sphery:

afm: I'm saying you do /not/ want that value specified--it /must/ be blank

[22:44:24]

sphery:

because currently when your firewire recording is beginning, Myth is sending the signals through the V4L API's to tune the non-existent tuner to channel 3

[22:44:31]

wagnerrp:

anyone know of a way to 'hash' the current hardware in the system?

[22:44:41]

sphery:

and non-existent tuners don't tune, so we get an error and exit

[22:44:47]

AndyCap:

wagnerrp: to what end?

[22:44:49]

sphery:

wagnerrp: MS does...

[22:44:55]

sphery:

It's called WGA :)

[22:44:58]

AndyCap:

lspci |md5sum ? :P

[22:45:00]

wagnerrp:

identify a machine as itself

[22:45:01]

afm:

i did....and now it have a series of these messages... the firewire was from a legacy attempt....not trying to use it

[22:45:02]

afm:

2009-12–28 17:43:15.789 DevRdB(/dev/video0) Error: Poll giving up

[22:45:03]

afm:

2009-12–28 17:43:15.850 MPEGRec(/dev/video0) Error: Device error detected

[22:45:03]

afm:

2009-12–28 17:43:15.893 DevRdB(/dev/video0): Stop(): Not running.

[22:45:22]

wagnerrp:

sphery, AndyCap: that wont take into account identical machines

[22:45:22]

AndyCap:

wagnerrp: what makes it stop being itself?

[22:45:51]

AndyCap:

pxe/dmi uuid, but you cant rely on it not being well, FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF or something

[22:46:15]

wagnerrp:

i mean i could rely on MAC address

[22:46:24]

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[22:46:34]

wagnerrp:

its amazing how many programs you find doing that for license management

[22:46:42]

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[22:46:45]

wagnerrp:

want to use the program on a different computer? clone the MAC

[22:46:54]

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[22:47:25]

sphery:

afm: I'd recommend clearing your capture cards and redoing it (this time ensuring you do it right). At least the capture card portion of http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/264034#264034 , possibly both capture card and video sources

[22:47:47]

sphery:

important part "Delete all ..." (and not "Delete all ... on <hostname>")

[22:47:56]

sphery:

and not single-delete

[22:47:58]

sid3windr:

wagnerrp: doesn't work too well if it's on the same lan though ;)

[22:48:16]

afm:

thanks sphery...giving it a try

[22:48:19]

wagnerrp:

sid3windr: sure it does, you just run all your traffic through eth1

[22:48:23]

sid3windr:

heh

[22:48:25]

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[22:48:30]

BobLfoot:

When I first setup Mythtv the Media Library — Watch Recordings would show all recordings including those from live tv. Now it only shows the scheduled recordings. I don't now how I switched it to this and I cannot find where to switch it back so I can delete some livetv recordings. Can someone assist?

[22:48:31]

sid3windr:

well, mac is one of the 3 options we have at work to lock a license

[22:48:39]

sid3windr:

but you have to add all macs on the machine I *think*

[22:48:52]

sid3windr:

which is fun, on windows, including the "microsoft tv adapter" and shit =)

[22:49:08]

wagnerrp:

at least two of the programs we use at work just run off eth0

[22:49:20]

wagnerrp:

which causes for much hilarity on multi-NIC systems

[22:49:47]

Joris_:

MythTV front-end (version 0.22 on a Mac) keeps asking to update the music and video database schemas, any ideas how to solve this?

[22:49:50]

wagnerrp:

the program wont start.... because theres no eth0? wtf? why is there an eth14 and no eth0?

[22:50:13]

wagnerrp:

Joris_: let them, or uninstall mythmusic/mythvideo

[22:50:20]

Dagmar:

Because Windows NIC enumeration is kinda crap

[22:50:31]

wagnerrp:

Dagmar: this is on Suse

[22:50:52]

Dagmar:

How the hell does it do that?

[22:51:15]

Joris_:

wagnerrp: 1) I did, but the question comes each time I start MythTV; 2) how should I uninstall plug-ins, just remove the directories in the application bundle?

[22:51:16]

wagnerrp:

no clue, something funky with the init scripts and/or the hardware

[22:51:24]

Dagmar:

You have to *work* at it to eff up NIC enumeration in Unix

[22:51:31]

wagnerrp:

you have to power down the machine, and pull the plug for several seconds, to fix it

[22:51:54]

Dagmar:

Joris_: Well, if you installed them via a package, you should probably try to just remove the one package first

[22:52:00]

wagnerrp:

Joris_: generally whatever you used to install mythtv is used to uninstall it

[22:52:01]

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[22:52:08]

wagnerrp:

if you installed from source, you can do a 'make uninstall'

[22:52:28]

wagnerrp:

however the bigger question is why do you care if it updates the schemas?

[22:52:50]

iamlindoro:

sounds like he's saying it's asking every time, which implies the schema update is failing

[22:52:56]

iamlindoro:

which implies broken DB or db access problem

[22:53:03]

Joris_:

wagnerrp: On the backend I didn't install MythMusic nor MythVideo; I downloaded a prebuild Mac binary from thesniderpad.com

[22:53:04]

sid3windr:

Dagmar: udev does that for you

[22:53:07]

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[22:53:24]

wagnerrp:

you only install mythmusic/video on the frontend

[22:53:43]

wagnerrp:

like iamlindoro said, the only reason it should tell you every time is if it failed

[22:53:53]

wagnerrp:

and likely the only reason it would fail is db access issues

[22:54:00]

wagnerrp:

in which case you should fix that

[22:54:20]

wagnerrp:

if you run mythfrontend from a terminal, it should spit about a bunch of text about what the problem is

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[22:59:18]

antgel:

obvously i know i'm out on a limb here, but does anybody see how applying the trivial patch http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/22584 to -fixes might have caused me to lose the subtitle option in the menu?

[22:59:51]

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[23:00:02]

Dagmar:

antgel: It changed a setting directly related to it, obviously

[23:00:35]

Joris_:

wagnerrp: I want to update the schemas, but for an unknown reason MythTV doesn't succeed; next time I start MythTV the question to update the database schemas arises agian

[23:00:38]

Dagmar:

It shouldn't have been able to affect anything but the OSD tho

[23:00:57]

wagnerrp:

Joris_: see the frontend logs in the terminal you run mythfrontend from to see why it fails

[23:01:20]

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[23:01:45]

AndyCap:

eth14? because they use udev + persistent naming of interfaces based on macaddress and you've swapped out the card or mb too may times. (or you have a deranged card like mine that changes mac every so often)

[23:01:49]

antgel:

Dagmar: exactly my point – i could understand if it messed up my subtitles (more), but not giving me the option is a bit odd. maybe i need -v $something, or maybe i need to make clean for some reason

[23:02:23]

wagnerrp:

AndyCap: no, for some reason it just decides that it doesnt like any of the existing four entries

[23:02:30]

Dagmar:

Pardon me while I go find a network person here and stomp their face in

[23:02:34]

wagnerrp:

so instead of eth0–3, it reorders then eth4–7

[23:02:40]

Dagmar:

I've been trying to get a VLAN change done for a week now

[23:03:01]

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[23:03:35]

wagnerrp:

looks like busybox does do md5sum

[23:03:45]

AndyCap:

if compiled in

[23:04:12]

BobLfoot:

Ok found my answer I somehow changed the group and view filters of recordings window. Got it back — thanks mythtv wiki faq section.

[23:04:18]

wagnerrp:

of course it does, busybox does everything

[23:04:28]

AndyCap:

and the kitchen sink

[23:04:38]

wagnerrp:

busybox does the kitchen sink?

[23:04:46]

wagnerrp:

hopefully not the one with the disposer

[23:05:44]

antgel:

wow, tv_play.cpp is 11807 lines

[23:07:28]

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[23:10:16]

Dagmar:

wagnerrp: It just about does

[23:10:36]

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[23:10:37]

Dagmar:

There's a reason it's at the center of multiple lawsuits about GPL abuse

[23:10:52]

Dagmar:

...it's becasue it's practically a bootable environment all by it's damn self.

[23:11:54]

sid3windr:

=)

[23:11:56]

Dagmar:

If there's functionality you need in a tiny environment, and whatever little tool you need doesn't seem to already be available, half the time you can just make a symlink named the tool you want, point it at busybox, and it'll work

[23:12:37]

sid3windr:

ln -s /bin/busybox mplayer

[23:12:45]

sid3windr:

or even!

[23:12:47]

sid3windr:

ln -s /bin/busybox mythtv.pl

[23:13:09]

Dagmar:

It'll do dd, cat, less, and enough to play libaa converted video files

[23:14:04]

Dagmar:

Instead of making a pass at searching the inventory of potential packages for an unknown command you type, Ubuntu should try passing the call to busybox first

[23:14:23]

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[23:15:08]

sid3windr:

heheh

[23:18:37]

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[23:21:32]

Guest63793:

so what does "error opening jump program file" refer to when im changing the channel

[23:22:32]

Toast:

I'm getting an error during ./configure mythtv 0.22 fixes. When I first tried, it ran happly, but I decided to install distcc before compiling and thought I had better re-run the ./configure before compiling. I now get this error. "Error, no memalign() but SSE enabled, disable it or use --enable-memalign-hack.". Removing the mythtv directory and redownloading it doesnt help.

[23:23:06]

Dagmar:

Guest63793: Google it

[23:23:39]

Dagmar:

Toast: You might want to mention EXACTLY what arguments and variables you're passing to configure

[23:23:42]

Dagmar:

Otherwise, we'll just ignore you

[23:24:21]

Dagmar:

...or just take distcc out of the picture and be done with it

[23:24:29]

Toast:

Dagmar: I did (and am) googling it. Didnt find anything usefull yet. I didn't pass any variables to configure. I'm letting it decide.

[23:24:48]

Toast:

Running it again with distcc not installed does work.

[23:24:50]

Dagmar:

You just ran ./configure with no arguments at all?

[23:24:59]

Dagmar:

That's pretty damn bizarre

[23:25:08]

Toast:

yes, as the howto suggests

[23:25:15]

Dagmar:

Something was probably stuffed with/by distcc for sure then

[23:25:21]

Toast:

I try to keep things simple :)

[23:25:44]

Toast:

OK, will take a little longer, but that's not the end of the world.

[23:26:15]

Toast:

Thanks.

[23:29:46]

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BobLfoot:

My default F12 Mythtv install has only 3 choices for OSD fonts. I am not finding a good howto or guide for adding more. Can anyone suggest one?

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