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| [06:07:50] | dekarl: | What is the issue with LTO? Does GCC not support linking to shared libraries anymore? Is it because we have (small parts of) the actual implementation in the header? I understand manually linking objects for unit tests, but not for production code. |
| [06:08:03] | dekarl: | ^- wrt #12408 |
| [06:08:03] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/12408 ** | |
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| [06:39:34] | gary_buhrmaster: | dekarl: When Fedora first made available gcc 4.9 this issue was discussed ( thread starts at: http://lists.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-dev/ . . . /074288.html ). |
| [06:41:13] | gary_buhrmaster: | dekarl: There were a couple of fixes (including not forcing -O2), but also (eventually) some various gcc fixes to address the issue(s). |
| [06:42:28] | gary_buhrmaster: | dekarl: gcc 4.9 (at least early releases) broke a lot of things (and not just MythTV). |
| [06:46:06] | gary_buhrmaster: | dekarl: I sort of lost interest in following the various gcc bug lists when Fedora upgraded to a "good enough" version (there were a lot of possible bugs in the list). |
| [06:47:12] | gary_buhrmaster: | dekarl: Those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. The gentoo users now get to repeat the Fedora rawhide experience. |
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| [07:25:33] | dekarl: | gary_buhrmaster: ty, that explains why we are talking about it now. But I still don't understand if we are triggering a bug in GCC, or if there is a real underlying issue :/ |
| [07:25:52] | dekarl: | libs/libmythtv/videooutbase.h: virtual void StartDisplayingFrame(void) { vbuffers.StartDisplayingFrame(); } |
| [07:26:08] | dekarl: | looks like there is a part of the implementation in the header and it gets pulled into main.o |
| [07:26:47] | dekarl: | ahh, its failing on mythavtest... |
| [07:26:48] | dekarl: | programs/mythavtest/main.cpp: vo->StartDisplayingFrame(); |
| [07:27:13] | dekarl: | can't we just move the code from the header to the library and thats it? (who can answer that?) |
| [07:47:21] | dekarl: | according to https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gccint/WHOPR.html this should be supported => GCC bug. Talks about un-sharing from libraries etc. |
| [08:14:53] | stuarta: | dekarl: i think it's a gcc bug, we build under gcc 4.8 and 5.1 so clearly 4.9 was buggy |
| [08:25:23] | lautriv: | i can confirm, gcc-4.9 does not work with 0.27, there was an issue with some specific optimisation algo, 0.28(master builds with 4.9(.3) |
| [08:28:19] | lautriv: | ok, i need some info about HOW mythtv deals with recordings regarding frontends. While the backend is writing or completed a recording, does the backend literally stream to frontend or does the frontend get a handle to pull ? |
| [08:35:28] | stuarta: | well, if you have the frontend set to stream from the backend then that's what it does |
| [08:35:45] | stuarta: | otherwise it can read the file locally, ie. via an nfs share |
| [08:39:22] | lautriv: | how does the frontend know about the location when using nfs ? |
| [08:41:10] | stuarta: | i have a vague recollection it looks in the same place as the SG definition for that recording |
| [08:41:45] | stuarta: | so if the back has sg1 at /myth/sg1 then you have to mount it at /myth/sg1 in order for local streaming to work |
| [08:41:59] | stuarta: | that said, i never use it, i find the backend streaming works perfectly well |
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| [08:46:05] | lautriv: | ok, let me go a bit deeper in explanation .... i have 3 backends and each has local diskspace, no issue on recording but since the line to the backends got damaged it went from 1000 to 100TX. Now, assumed slave-BE records something anf FE gets an URL which is BE1/SO/PATH/FROM/THAT/SG would it be able to grab that ? |
| [08:47:50] | lautriv: | ... for the case i'd move the BE's storage to a NFS which is on the other side ( 1GBit to FE's ) |
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| [08:57:59] | warpme: | gigem: with w.r.t #12463 initially I was thinking like You: big size of prev.recorded simply needs memory. But 2 things finally pushed me to fill ticket for it |
| [08:57:59] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/12463 ** | |
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| [09:00:11] | warpme: | 1/ alocating 1.9G RSS by mythtfrontend is simply unacceptabe. 2/allocation is additive (any search increases RSS). i can easy enter sitation where RSS has over 3.2G !!! |
| [09:00:35] | warpme: | s/sitation/situation/ |
| [09:03:09] | stuarta: | warpme: do you have any idea what is holding onto that memory? |
| [09:03:31] | warpme: | 2/ gives hang on disk-less systems (where is no swap) and user complaints about system hang while in reality there is no hang but rather lack of resources leading to even ssh not working.... |
| [09:05:09] | warpme: | oh no. i suspect it is something like mem alocation per list entry as i have impression that any attempt to display list of rec. increases RSS alocation |
| [09:06:38] | warpme: | stuarta: may You verify this in Your system? Simply try to follow desc. in #12463 |
| [09:06:38] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/12463 ** | |
| [09:07:06] | stuarta: | warpme: i'm not near any systems to verify at this time |
| [09:09:21] | warpme: | stuarta: sure. we can live with #12463 – but only issue I see is guys like me doing dedicated OS for mythtv with hard limited resources (disk-less with no swap). My users simply complaining about stability of minimyth2 while in reality this is not issue on my side.... |
| [09:09:21] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/12463 ** | |
| [09:12:10] | stuarta: | warpme: is it just on master, or also on 0.27 ?? |
| [09:12:13] | warpme: | stuarta: I mean "generally we can live with #12463". It has absolutelly nothing with You or anybody else. I know minimyth2 is corner case – but on the other hand: app alocating 3G of RAM is strange.... |
| [09:13:40] | warpme: | I don't have 0.27 at hand at the moment (I can verify it today evening) – but I'm 90% sure issue is also on 0.27 |
| [09:29:30] | lautriv: | warpme, looks like you found an issue where i did not see the root cause :) i have a diskless frontend stuttering since upgrade , could be that thingie is swapping like hell. |
| [09:30:19] | stuarta: | lautriv: let us know if that is actually the case |
| [09:37:48] | lautriv: | sure |
| [09:38:15] | warpme: | lautriv: disk-less swaping....is it means that it has swap over NFS i.e. ? |
| [09:40:42] | lautriv: | warpme, new NFS can do so (if kernel is set ) but thisone has swap on nbd |
| [09:41:25] | lautriv: | i'm about to move to iSCSI which will probably outperform both |
| [09:41:45] | stuarta: | what are you backing the nbd with if it's not iscsi? |
| [09:42:51] | lautriv: | nbd can be done native, there is nbd-server/client and device is in-kernel since the stoneage. |
| [09:43:19] | warpme: | lautriv: setup where You have disk-less system with apps RSS consumption vs. RAM designed leading to need of swap is VERY bad idea for real-time regime |
| [09:44:20] | stuarta: | lautriv: on your question of what happens when streaming the files from the BE, i'd recommend running with --verbose file as that will emit messages from the storagegroup code |
| [09:44:36] | stuarta: | it'll give you a better idea of what is occuring |
| [09:45:34] | lautriv: | warpme, a frontend must be small and silent, worked like a charm on 0.27 with 1G RAM, the swap is usually unused and only there to prevent oom/crash |
| [09:46:54] | warpme: | kswapd runs on highest system priority – so if You have saping dirty pages to swap device – then: 1\rest of processes are starving CPU time till swap pages ands; 2\ swap IO BW consumes all BW to this block device (network NIC here). 100% BW on NIC for swap means 0% BW on NIC for playback. In such case it will be strange when You will NOT have stuttering playback :-) |
| [09:47:06] | warpme: | s/saping/swaping/ |
| [09:50:50] | warpme: | lautriv: sure. i agree. but here are "non-negotiable" things if we want to have smooth working system. one from them is mythfrontend RSS consumption. My rule of thumb is: for heavy HD theme 1.2G for mythfrontend is must. Generally – saving few bucks on RAM isn't absolutelly worth frustration of end-user triggered by this saving.... |
| [09:54:05] | warpme: | also – using RAMdisk rootfs based disk-less system offers so much more smooth UI over NFS rootfs for me, that I'm ready spend even twice more on RAM only to have RAMdisk based root FS..... |
| [09:55:36] | lautriv: | warpme, it's not about saving some bucks, more the reuse of things not otherwise useful. Howver that diskless FE did : boot to selection -> 98M, selecting recorded programs -> 104M, watching live-tv -> 143M. no SWAP involved. |
| [09:56:02] | warpme: | look: we are spending multiple hundreds of $ for high-end BE and all this can be burned by bad UI expierience on FE just because FE is very tight compromise on so cheap things like RAM.... |
| [09:56:30] | ** stuarta loves his HP microserver as a backend ** | |
| [09:57:30] | lautriv: | but backends have very different definitions. Need much space, lots of I/O, can be loud. |
| [09:58:02] | stuarta: | for me, all my recordings are DVB based, so it's just bit banging to storage |
| [09:58:12] | stuarta: | = naff all cpu |
| [09:58:20] | warpme: | lautriv: OK. What about entering movies with HD res fanarts?. Mine has 300–400MB for live-tv/recordings and can have 1–1.1G for videos with fanarts. |
| [09:59:43] | lautriv: | warpme, now that is something different in the use-case. i'm fine with the playable file and need no fanart stuff. |
| [10:00:00] | stuarta: | i would not be surprised if the fanart chews memory |
| [10:01:39] | lautriv: | stuarta, the FE i actually told MEM usage runs master on commit 41328ba4ed97af6faf179a6e80160eb303dd9b56 and since i don't do HD or big fanarts, it may be very well the main cause. |
| [10:01:58] | lautriv: | unfortunately not my solution :( |
| [10:02:34] | stuarta: | but a good data point |
| [10:04:50] | warpme: | lautriv: ok. got it. Anyway, my whole logic was based on statement "could be that thingie is swapping like hell". If it is not case then indeed – Your issue might be diferent :-) |
| [10:08:42] | lautriv: | warpme, about our different opinions .... i look around 2h/month some recordings and the rest is family-entertainment (zapping) so if you use the FE more like a representative home-theatre it may be worth using fanarts but looks like those are your greedy part. |
| [10:09:31] | warpme: | lautriv: well said! |
| [10:09:35] | lautriv: | addendum : playing a video is equal to live, 154M |
| [10:10:18] | warpme: | indeed: also my expierience is: theme is critical for FE RAM consumption |
| [10:10:34] | stuarta: | some themes can be quite heavy |
| [10:12:34] | warpme: | right: going from media-center to my theme I'm using (fork of mythmediastream) changes FE RSS consumption avg. 3–3.5x for me. Despite that I'm ready to once time spent on RAM just to recurently see nice things on TV :-) |
| [10:13:11] | warpme: | ok – must run to work! All the best! |
| [10:13:56] | lautriv: | steppes-2.16 ftw ;) |
| [10:15:37] | dekarl: | IMHO if we ever want to move forward with stuff like native frontend on android tv, then some for of optimization for the fanart / memory leaks is a must. (on top of support for hardware video decoding) |
| [10:17:12] | ** stuarta agrees ** | |
| [10:17:32] | lautriv: | dekarl, you remind me. you asked for a test of the androshit variant where i said i will test it if linux fails ... connection for UART ripped pcb and it died :( |
| [10:31:52] | dekarl: | doh |
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| [11:38:50] | dekarl: | hmm, we could use a gentoo buildbot to reproduce |
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| [12:03:56] | stuarta: | dekarl: i started building one, but frankly it's a pain in the arse |
| [12:04:38] | stuarta: | there is a reason i gave up building my own distro bits 20yrs ago, it's not worth the trouble |
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| [12:39:49] | lautriv: | stuarta, the biggest pain is, before you even did a basic constellation sources were changed or links vanished. |
| [12:40:04] | stuarta: | hah |
| [13:10:16] | lautriv: | can anyone tell me some numbers how much speed in MB/s an average SD stream really needs/uses from BE->FE and no fancy client. |
| [13:13:59] | dekarl: | that would be <10mbit/s |
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| [13:24:13] | stuarta: | lautriv: the best method to identify that is to pull up the playback data display |
| [13:25:22] | stuarta: | while watching a recording |
| [13:26:49] | lautriv: | stuarta, we talked about that maybe 2 month ago and nothing was obvious, just CPU with 25% ( where another fluid FE was at 70% ) |
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| [13:52:16] | jheizer_: | lautriv, I think he meant if you pull up the playback data menu option it gives the bit rate of the item playing. |
| [13:52:46] | stuarta: | exactly |
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| [13:58:48] | lautriv: | jheizer, i got that part but from what i remember there was nothing obvious hence i considered there may be a difference between the FE output and network ( e.g. pixelstream vs protocol overhead and such ) |
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| [14:34:21] | stuarta: | stuartm: greetings! |
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| [19:51:42] | tgm4883: | How's 0.28 coming along, and more importantly, web setup? |
| [19:54:14] | tgm4883: | We're toying with the idea of not doing ISOs anymore |
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| [20:38:11] | lautriv: | tgm4883, what do you mean with "not doing ISOs anymore" ? |
| [20:38:29] | tgm4883: | lautriv: as in, not making a 16.04 Mythbuntu ISO |
| [20:39:02] | superm1: | telling people to go install ubuntu server or XFCE and apt-get install mythbuntu-blah instead |
| [20:39:41] | lautriv: | ah. honestly i would not touch any *buntu but web-setup is still not complete ? |
| [20:40:31] | tgm4883: | lautriv: AFAIK it's not. What do you use? |
| [20:41:13] | lautriv: | i run 028/master, latest pull approx a week ago. overall it feels more responsive. |
| [20:43:08] | lautriv: | but regardless of the web-setup, users could still apt-get something and use the mythtv-setup like before. |
| [20:45:16] | lautriv: | i run myth since the stoneage and something like "ssh -fCY mythtv@node001 taskset -c 0 mythtv-setup -O Theme=MythCenter-wide" works for a headless backend. |
| [20:45:41] | tgm4883: | lautriv: right, but hte point behind mythbuntu was to make things easier for users |
| [20:46:31] | lautriv: | most attempts to make anything easier lead to a disaster, shown by gnome3 and win10 ;) |
| [20:47:52] | jheizer: | Mythbuntu packages/ISO has always been a quality and appreciated product. |
| [20:47:59] | jheizer: | Ignore them. |
| [20:48:36] | tgm4883: | jheizer: thanks |
| [20:49:04] | lautriv: | heh, i said not the ISO is pointless but if you want to setup a complete entertainment, you need to know some stuff anyway. |
| [20:49:04] | jheizer: | I usually netinstall then mythbuntu-desktop so I wouldn't cry it there was no offical ISO. |
| [20:50:16] | jheizer: | Did just that last week on 15.10 trying to reinstall my fubar'd server/backend. |
| [20:51:20] | lautriv: | jheizer, so you literally netinstalled a mythbuntu-desktop to fix the backend ? |
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| [20:53:13] | jheizer: | My server that runs my whole house was randomly locking up with different issues. So I reinstalled it all, myth, raids, myth builer vms, etc |
| [20:54:13] | lautriv: | and when it happens again you have nothing left to track and compare the real issue ... |
| [20:54:48] | jheizer: | After trying to track it for a month and having a baby on the way in 0–14 days, I had little options lfet |
| [20:56:02] | lautriv: | c'mon some tail/cat/dmesg/strace is nothing that would take more time than a reinstall and since you don't know WHAT happend, it will most likely happen again. |
| [21:00:29] | jheizer: | It went from croaking every 12–16 hours and now up for 5.5 days. All the base install has is non-standard is KVM, Myth, and ZFS. Every kernel dump included them all plus others. Either way it is working now. |
| [21:05:22] | lautriv: | i could imagine what happend in that interval but nvm, enjoy your reinstall. |
| [21:07:04] | lautriv: | <--bed, laters. |
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| [21:18:58] | dekarl: | jheizer: Mythbuntu on ZFS? I like the idea :) (after having the second disk die lately on the backend) |
| [21:19:52] | jheizer: | I don't boot from it, but record to it. |
| [21:20:24] | jheizer: | Have for a few years now without issue (unless the problem noted above was a bug in ZFS) |
| [21:21:54] | dekarl: | Ahh, I have a HP microserver + FreeNAS + networked tuner on my shopping list for some time now. But a new pushchair (suiting three kids) was higher up the list ;) |
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| [21:23:10] | jheizer: | This almost drove me to seperate the boxes again to a seperate storage box. |
| [21:23:30] | jheizer: | I host all our work dev servers from a single NAS4Free box |
| [21:24:39] | jheizer: | Between this server (8 core AMD 32B ram) and my pfsense box, been trying to limit myself to 2 24/7 servers |
| [21:25:42] | jheizer: | lol gotta love the English language divide. Had to google push chair. |
| [21:26:19] | jheizer: | My #2 is ready to pop any way. #1 was 4 weeks early so I'm not getting caught off guard this time at least. |
| [21:26:19] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/2 ** | |
| [21:26:19] | ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/1 ** | |
| [21:26:46] | dekarl: | ahh, I randomly chose one that sounded universal (guess I learned it as pram back in the days) from dict.leo.org (german <-> english) |
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| [21:28:06] | jheizer: | Totally mkes sense. US = Stroller |
| [21:28:19] | jheizer: | Cause we are going for a stroll I guess. |
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| [21:29:10] | jheizer: | UK amazon popped up with that as the category. Just us stupid Americans probably. |
| [21:31:53] | jheizer: | If you ever want to play with it under linux you can create pools from block files on the file system. Enough to play around if you've never used it. |
| [21:32:34] | dekarl: | The kids love this part of the new stroller (had four testers) https://www.bugaboo.com/US/en_US/strollers/ac . . . heeled-board highly recommended bicycle saddle style extendsion board ;) |
| [21:33:40] | jheizer: | HA that's cool. |
| [21:33:42] | dekarl: | Got my FreeBSD desktop running on ZFS for ages |
| [21:34:46] | jheizer: | My stoller + that + duck tape |
| [21:35:33] | dekarl: | but went for MythTV's native storage group support with five single disks. (you may have guessed it already, obviously the system disk died first) |
| [21:36:29] | jheizer: | sucks |
| [21:37:39] | jheizer: | After I had issues a few years ago I VM'd most of the sub services on my box so that a OS drive loss was not quiet as bad. Still always happens at the worse times and 50 things go wrong that should go easy. |
| [21:37:54] | dekarl: | hehe, ZFS (with NAF4Free) on the original Raspberry Pi sounds fun. I was wondering how well they got the memory allocation under control in the mean time. Looks like its way improved if you can run ZFS in 512MB memory |
| [21:38:57] | jheizer: | I've never tried to squish it that far. You can set the amount of ARC available in the config. |
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| [21:39:14] | jheizer: | at one point it'd just keep eating |
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