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Monday, February 16th, 2015, 00:00 UTC
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[01:51:15] gigem: paul-h: What do your capturecard and inputgroup tables look like and does your tuner use diseqc? The only issue I know of deals with diseqc and I think that's been addressed.
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[08:08:17] dekarl: So I thought to add Lua into the EITfixup mix to make it easier to adjust for our users and got told to not add yet another language into the mix. (good point)
[08:08:45] dekarl: Now I look at QTScript and hit all the "we do it differently, because we can" stuff :( . . . yword-object
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[08:51:10] stuarta: dekarl: you masocist....
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[08:58:43] stuartm: dekarl: QTScript == Javascript
[09:01:25] dekarl: I read that both are derived from ECMAscript, but it appears there are differences, like "An important thing to note is that in Qt Script, unlike C++ and Java, the this object is not part of the execution scope."
[09:02:14] dekarl: oh, it says "Java" not "Javascript"... need to look up how object oriented javascript does it
[09:03:23] dekarl: signals/slots are taboo (our coding style), so can't use that to hook the stuff together...
[09:03:50] dekarl: looks like it may not be worth it for now... so back to turning the EIT stuff into easier to test/change boxes
[09:05:00] stuarta: dekarl: fyi, the fixups used to be in the database
[09:05:19] stuarta: but it hurt performance, which is why it was pulled into compiled code
[09:05:40] dekarl: "Qt 4.6′s QtScript implementation is based on WebKit’s JavaScript engine, JavaScriptCore", maybe it really is just javascript
[09:07:23] dekarl: stuarta, I understand that. I have my own database based fixup framework for tv data. Need to properly cache stuff to keep up an acceptable speed. Compiling ahead of time is a simple way to reach that
[09:09:17] dekarl: stuarta, there are still left overs from that fixup stuff in the database/code that confuse someone every now and then... maybe we can rip that out with other database refactoring
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[09:09:34] stuartm: dekarl: that's a problem in Javascript with that particular object construct, declare it using the more familiar function syntax and it behaves as you'd expect it to
[09:12:42] stuarta: dekarl: tbh, i'm not sure why danielk didn't look at pre-compiling the database stuff
[09:13:58] stuartm: dekarl: not that I'm defending javascript, it's frustrating at times
[09:14:55] stuarta: working out how to make it work properly, accurately and efficiently is one heck of a job
[09:17:01] stuartm: dekarl: this is the class-like syntax that I've settled on for use with the WebFrontend –
[09:18:55] stuartm: with that the scope works as expected
[09:20:49] stuartm: and it's more familiar than the "var o = { a: 1, b:2, sum: function() { return a +b; } }" format where scoping is broken
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[09:24:25] stuarta: rebooting mizar
[09:26:16] stuarta: done
[10:03:48] stuarta: . . . e-change-it/
[10:21:11] stuartm: don't think it affects us, but we'll find out soon enough
[10:22:13] stuartm: just means stuff built for Fedora 22 won't work on Fedora 23, or vice versa
[10:23:43] stuarta: probably not, but it's worth knowing it's in the pipeline
[10:23:54] stuartm: we should setup a gcc 5 builder
[10:26:02] stuarta: aye, f22 alpha. aka rawhide
[10:27:24] stuartm: anyone shipping full cream gcc 5 instead of f22's semi-skimmed version?
[10:28:52] stuarta: no idea
[10:29:00] stuartm: that's the one which might be more interesting to build against
[10:29:13] stuarta: with Qt5 of course
[10:29:19] stuartm: of course
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[10:29:57] stuarta: the most likely distro is gentoo
[10:31:18] stuarta: but there is no way in hell i'm setting up a gentoo builder
[10:31:41] stuarta: my host is fragile enough without hammering the shit out of it
[10:32:01] stuartm: I need a third person to try ssl with the webfrontend so I can establish whether warpme's experience is down to some configuration issue or a bug
[10:32:39] stuarta: i could probably take a stab at it
[10:36:02] stuarta: not sure when tho
[10:36:12] ** stuarta kicks off a build **
[11:13:02] stuarta: stuartm: is there a page describing how to set it up?
[11:18:14] stuartm: stuarta: no, not yet – simple enough, generate a self-signed certificate (lots of tutorials online), then put the key and cert paths in the hostSSLKey and hostSSLCertificate settings
[11:18:25] stuarta: k
[11:18:27] stuartm: stuarta: I'm working on a settings page for the webfrontend at the moment
[12:58:16] stuarta: sphery: so basically we need to start using dbus?
[12:58:29] stuarta: sphery: if we want screensavers to turn off properly?
[13:05:31] stuarta: er to not turn the screen off when watching a program
[13:11:18] stuartm: stuarta: we already use dbus, they just changed the API so we're calling the wrong endpoint
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[13:13:50] stuarta: i thought we were using gnome-screensaver -poke
[13:14:05] stuarta: well that should be an easy fix anyway
[13:17:28] stuartm: stuarta: we were using a combination of things, for different versions of different desktops
[13:18:40] stuarta: i need to fix the dbus one, did some upgrades on the prod frontend, and now it sleeps too quickly. so had to change the sleep time out to never for a while
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[13:23:20] stuartm: that's strange, I thought we supported the old dbus api but I'm not finding any dbus usage in libmythui
[13:24:22] stuarta: from reading around it's not that difficult. send inhibit to the endpoint, get cookie back, send uninhibit with cookie back to cancel the inhibit
[13:25:35] stuartm: yeah, with QDBus there's really not much too it
[13:26:18] stuarta: my description wasn't even taking the abstraction of Qt into account
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[14:06:10] stuarta: if i had any artistic talent i'd make a theme that conformed to
[14:18:06] stuartm: one of the hardest things for me when I've tried designing themes is deciding on the colour scheme, it's harder than it sounds, so starting with a predefined scheme sounds like a great idea
[14:20:05] stuarta: i like the fact that it is a simple, small pallette
[14:20:15] stuarta: any code editor i've used with it i love
[14:22:00] stuartm: although I don't really have the time, I've been toying with the idea of a new default theme which aims to be simple, stylish but not flashy, more 'appliance' looking
[14:22:36] stuartm: that colour scheme would go well with the concept
[14:23:42] stuartm: light on dark (since I can't stand it the other way around)
[14:24:02] stuarta: i too must have a dark background
[14:32:43] stuarta: nice, now i have gedit with solarized colours
[14:33:00] stuarta: from here
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[15:09:51] stuartm: it's one of the built in profiles for kate/kdevelop
[15:10:50] stuartm: though for me the background doesn't offer enough contrast
[15:20:32] stuarta: stuartm: do you use kde?
[15:26:47] stuartm: yes I do
[15:28:48] stuarta: do you see screensaver issues or not?
[15:31:52] stuartm: haven't used a screensaver for a couple of years now
[15:33:11] stuartm: no CRTs to save, only reason to use one would be as a lock screen which is why I kept using it as long as I did, but I grew tired of continually having to unlock it
[15:34:05] stuarta: i use the screen blanking on the frontend connected to the tv
[15:34:41] stuarta: which is why i've now got an interest in resolving it. "the tv keeps going dark"...
[15:34:51] stuartm: makes sense there, but I always turn off the TV when I'm not in the room
[15:35:37] stuartm: or rather when no-one is in the room
[15:35:38] stuarta: with the default of 10mins, it's was kicking in before one of the kids programs finished
[15:35:56] stuarta: hence "the tv keeps going dark"
[15:36:16] stuarta: EMOTIVATION
[15:40:42] stuarta: so we've resisted adding dbus based screensaver support before #10625
[15:40:42] ** MythLogBot **
[15:42:13] stuarta: this is silly. vlc is using dbus on 4 different paths just to get the screensaver to work
[15:55:28] stuartm: well not resisted, but sphery wasn't sure it was going to be so easy, and the vlc code suggests he was right
[15:56:22] stuarta: you have a link handy to the code you are reading?
[16:01:48] stuarta: nm found it on github
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[16:14:36] stuarta: looks like the org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver path works at least for gnome3
[16:14:48] stuarta: stuartm: can you try some of these for me
[16:14:59] stuarta: qdbus org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver /ScreenSaver
[16:15:10] stuarta: qdbus org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver /ScreenSaver org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver.Inhibit test_app test_inhibit
[16:15:21] stuarta: that returns a cookie
[16:15:34] stuarta: qdbus org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver /ScreenSaver org.freedesktop.ScreenSaver.UnInhibit <cookie>
[16:16:48] stuarta: the first one returns all the methods available. calling some of them result in "This method is not implemented"
[16:32:01] stuarta: assuming i can work out how to drive QtDBus this shouldn't be too hard to implement
[16:35:24] stuartm:
[16:35:45] stuarta: so that works then
[16:37:00] stuartm: well maybe, I have some gnome packages installed to support gnome based applications so the dbus endpoints certainly exist, need to enable the screensaver to find out if they work (guess via ssh)
[16:38:17] stuarta: so mine's a bit different, but those 2 endpoints still work
[16:39:10] stuarta: i think as a first pass that would be good to implement
[16:39:16] stuarta: todo_list += screesaver
[16:39:32] stuarta: *screensaver
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[19:08:26] dekarl: stuartm, so I'll just follow the web frontend example once I get to the "scripts" part
[19:09:20] dekarl: So are we going to write some kind of "screensaver abstraction library / service"? that could be useful for basically everyone who has to deal with screensavers
[19:10:26] dekarl: evil genuis plan: lets expose it via DBus, harhar.
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[20:52:14] peper03: stuartm: Managed to figure out some of the Freesat category stuff yesterday. The categories are referenced in the 0xd5 descriptors but I don't know how the channels are referenced. The category->channel list isn't serviceIDs or anything else I can recognise.
[20:54:14] peper03: Interestingly, it seems the categories are defined per-region. The number of channels in a given category isn't always the same. The 'Entertainment' category, for example, seems to range from 73 channels to 122.
[20:55:26] peper03: How did you actually envisage using the category information? Were you thinking of adding channel categories in general?
[20:58:17] stuartm: peper03: we already have channel groups, although they need to be defined by the user, I was thinking it would be good to optionally create groups for each category and assign the channels to those groups
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[20:59:04] stuartm: when I say optionally, I'd make it the default behaviour for new installs
[20:59:06] peper03: stuartm: Ah, yes. Of course. I'd forgotten all about them. I set up a couple of groups myself but rarely actually use them.
[21:00:21] stuartm: I rarely use them because the UI doesn't really work how I'd like, I've implemented filtering by the group in the WebFrontend though and that can sometimes be useful
[21:01:34] stuartm: peper03: another option would be allowing the user to exclude (mark as hidden) channels at scan time based on their category – so I'd hide all shopping and sports channels
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[21:04:19] stuartm: once we're parsing and storing the information, I'm sure all sorts of uses might be thought of
[21:06:10] peper03: Ha! Found it! The ids in the category list seem to match entries in the LCN list (0xd3 descriptors).
[21:06:19] stuartm: requiring a pin to access 'adult' channels; excluding certain channel groups for scheduling
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[21:07:16] stuartm: peper03: nice, so I take it this is something you might try to implement yourself? Or are you just poking around out of curiosity?
[21:09:51] peper03: stuartm: At the moment I'm just poking around. I grabbed a sample from the Freesat transponder (dev box is not currently connected to any aerial or dish) and was looking at what hadn't been deciphered yet.
[21:10:35] peper03: It's not rocket science or anything, but figuring out structures in raw data is a good brain-teaser :)
[21:11:02] stuartm: k, I hope your making notes :) I was going to take a look at it sometime in the next couple of weeks
[21:11:57] stuartm: peper03: yeah, there's a certain kick to figuring it out
[21:12:48] peper03: stuartm: Yes, but unfortunately not very structured. A mixture of hacking printfs into the source code, and cutting and pasting snippets in a text file.
[21:26:10] peper03: What approach would you take for adding it to our code? Adding 'Freesat' as a new scan type to ScanTypeSetting and the functionality to ChannelScanSM (or at least triggered from there)?
[21:42:38] stuartm: I was going to look at the existing freeview lcn code for inspiration, I don't want to require the user to do anything differently, if it's there we use it and if it's not we don't – at least for the first step of actually parsing the information and storing it, especially for the channel numbers
[21:44:41] stuartm: once we're parsing and storing the category info we can then think about exactly how we put the information to use
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[22:06:50] peper03: stuartm: Wouldn't it make sense to offer a 'Freesat' scan? In the scenario of a user setting their system up for the first time, assuming all the information is available, it would be a much better user-experience being able to select 'Freesat' and having all channels populated and numbered in a couple of seconds rather than having to figure out what starting frequency is required along with all the other parameters and then waiting for tens of
[22:06:52] peper03: minutes for a full scan plus all the renumbering by hand afterwards.
[22:07:30] peper03: Without knowing the user is in the UK pointing at 28.8 degrees east, we can't do anything.
[22:07:46] peper03: The same would apply to Freeview where possible but I have no experience with Freeview.
[22:08:41] stuartm: peper03: selecting 'Freesat' to the starting frequency is one of those options I listed the other day as a must-have, I just meant to express that we don't necessarily have to tie the parsing of channel numbers and categories to that setting
[22:10:04] stuartm: my thinking is that other networks tend to look at what has been done in the UK and copy it, so I'd rather auto-detect the presence of those descriptors and apply them no matter which network they are found on
[22:10:40] peper03: stuartm: Yes, ok. If it's encapsulated well enough, the information could be used for different features.
[22:11:20] peper03: You mean, automatically try to tune to the Freesat transponder/PID and if we get what we expect, we're on Freesat, if not, we're not?
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[22:16:08] stuartm: with respect to the channel number info, I mean if we're scanning and happen to find descriptors at those pids containing containing data in that same format, then we take that data and apply it to the channels it references – so users in South America scanning a brazilian satellite we've never even heard of get channel numbers if that network happens to have implemented the same system
[22:16:48] stuartm: rather than taking the approach of only looking for those descriptors if we know we're on the freesat network
[22:17:40] peper03: I got the impression that all the stuff referred to in the post and the website was Freesat specific.
[22:18:03] peper03: I'll admit I'm not that clued-up on what data is normally available and what isn't.
[22:21:07] stuartm: peper03: we simply don't know that it's specific to freesat, as I mentioned before, other networks around the world have been known to take the formats first used on a network in the UK (or elsewhere) and use it for their own – the Freeview LCN descriptor which I believe was first implemented in the UK has been widely copied across europe and elsewhere
[22:23:24] stuartm: The BBC and other groups in the UK who developed the formats for various DVB extensions have published those and even pushed to standardise some of them – the BBC work on MHEG extensions has similarly been adopted as a de-facto standard
[22:23:59] peper03: stuartm: Yes, OK, I understand what you mean. There's nothing (as far as I can see) specifically Freesat only in the data contents.
[22:26:10] peper03: So assuming we handling coincidentally find a PID that delivers data in the right format, I wonder how we should handle it when we discover more than one. Say, one for the Netherlands and one for Germany.
[22:26:29] peper03: There's a country code in some of the data, so I guess we could try to use that.
[22:26:41] stuartm: the current TODO list has a definite freesat bias because half the active developers are from the UK (perhaps more than half)
[22:27:52] stuartm: peper03: we can only try to do the right thing, we do ask users which country they are in, so yes, we'd attempt to use the country code if available
[22:29:43] peper03: I don't have a problem with a Freesat-specific feature or bias. Just trying to work through the possible scenarios to avoid hitting a dead-end that could have been avoided with a little more forethought.
[22:29:58] stuartm: if we know that there is region data for Germany because someone there is able to tell us about it, then we can offer region selection for that country. A lot depends on users/developers in other countries taking an interest
[22:30:27] stuartm: peper03: I understand
[22:31:17] peper03: Equally, not much point trying to design something to work under all circumstances that becomes a behemoth that in the end only adds functionality for one region anyway.
[22:32:27] peper03: If we can add a little flexibility at the beginning without making it overly complicated, so much the better. If other networks suddenly appear that need something we didn't envisage, refactoring the code isn't the end of the world.
[22:32:51] stuartm: peper03: some countries, Norway or Sweden comes to mind publish their extensions online as public data, sometimes in English so we can pick up useful bits from simply finding those documents
[22:33:06] dekarl: stuartm, if we add a "trust dvb-si" channel scan mode, then you only have to scan one single transport (the full-si transport) and harvest the NIT and the SDT for all transports from that.
[22:33:51] dekarl: otoh I'm not sure how widespread such a "full SI" transport is across other DVB-C/S/T networks
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[22:34:43] peper03: dekarl: How do you know which transports are "full SI" without scanning all of them? Hard-coded?
[22:34:57] dekarl: peper03: its signalled on all transports, so just look
[22:35:14] dekarl: let me find my notes, something with the "linkage descriptor"
[22:35:26] stuartm: dekarl: my intention was that the 'starting frequency' list would work like that, the starting frequency (frequencies?) would in all cases be the transports which carried data on the entire network and we'd not bother with frequency hopping to find transports which weren't advertised
[22:35:59] dekarl: stuartm, that sounds like reading the NIT and only visit these transports.
[22:36:11] dekarl: but there is also a transport that hat PAT/PMT/SDT of all other transports
[22:37:05] dekarl: it can be used to improve the EIT scan, but it can also improve any other scan
[22:38:59] stuartm: I have heard tell of such wonderful things as these
[22:39:45] stuartm: dekarl: yes, obviously where those are known to exist, that's what we'd use
[22:42:18] stuartm: we need to hammer out a simple extensible file format (xml) to store this information, maybe that's something else for the wiki – I might only have put 'network name', 'network id', 'frequency' in it, but that's because my experience is limited to the UK
[22:43:12] stuartm: so we might add markup to indicate that the transport @ 'frequency' contains the 'full si'
[22:43:57] stuartm: or more generally the scan type to use for that network to achieve the best results
[22:49:03] stuartm: dekarl: the important thing is that we don't just talk about doing these things, we actually start to achieve some of them, so even if it's not initially used, the first step is to start compiling the data for the networks
[22:50:55] stuartm: once it exists it's another small step to start using it to populate the starting frequency info. Even if that's all we achieve it's a significant improvement over the status quo
[22:52:33] stuartm: so with that in mind, tomorrow I will commit a file containing the network information for Freesat, perhaps later in the week I'll do the same for Freeview
[22:54:24] stuartm: if I have the patience, I may even write a script to parse the data for all networks listed on kingofsat or lyngsat

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