:: #mythtv

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Current users (68):

aloril, amessina, Anssi, brfransen, caelor, Casper0082, CCFL_Man, Chutt_, clever, coling, dblain, dekarl, eee-blt, ElmerFudd, enyc, epinephrine, esperegu, fetzerch, Gibby, gigem, gregL, GreyFoxx, J-e-f-f-A, jams, jarle, jheizer, joki, jpharvey_, jst, jwhite, jya, kormoc, kurre2, len_, moparisthebest, MythBuild, MythLogBot, natanojl, nephyrin, og01, peper03, poptix-, purserj, rich0, rmeden, robink, rsiebert_, Seeker`, seld_, Sharky112065, sheedy-away, sl1ce, sphery, sraue, stuartm, suffice, superm1, taylorr, tgm4883, Tobbe5178, tonsofpcs, tris, unforgiven512, wagner__, XDS2010, xris, zentec, _charly_
Tuesday, October 21st, 2014, 00:17 UTC
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[08:39:47] stuarta: the theme chooser version downgrade code is definitely working
[08:40:20] stuarta: watching the logs i get 3 successive errors 0.27.4 not found, 0.27.3 not found, 0.27.2 not found
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[09:19:18] stuartm: there shouldn't really be any significant differences between minor versions that would prevent a theme from working, I assume the code allows a 0.27.0 theme to work with 0.27.4?
[09:20:56] stuarta: i think so, it's been a few days since i read the changelog
[09:21:47] stuarta: yes, iirc that's what it does, it goes back down the revisions to the base revision looking for themes
[09:23:17] stuarta: . . . e3f6120f7508
[09:37:30] stuartm: ok, that's good,
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[10:10:11] stuarta: woot nearly 5k forum visits last month
[10:12:43] stuarta: still not quite up to the 36k for www, and 82k for wiki
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[12:02:06] stuartm: it's finally floated to the top of the search engine results so that will help
[12:02:33] stuartm: well, second in the list on Bing
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[12:36:17] stuarta: 1st in google results
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[14:07:12] stuartm: tagged 0.26.2 so that people can more easily tell whether they are running the version with the SD url fix. Still want to encourage users to move to 0.27.4 though, and I won't be backporting to 0.25
[14:08:29] stuarta: :)
[14:09:08] stuartm: 0.26 is two years old (Oct 2012), that's old enough
[14:09:49] stuarta: hmmm github uses oauth, so that's a possible user authentication method
[14:10:21] dekarl: Should we push that to 0.25, too? hints that 0.25 is still out in the wild
[14:13:33] stuarta: 9.3% according to smolt data
[14:13:53] stuarta: well that's 0.25.2
[14:14:09] stuarta: .3 is another 2.7%
[14:14:26] stuartm: dekarl: just said I had no plans to do so, and there's little point anyway since no distro is still updating the packages
[14:14:35] dekarl: hmm, mostly 0.25.2.. maybe that could be a carrot for them to enable the fixes, repo :)
[14:14:51] stuartm: we've only got that many users on 0.25 because they are still using the packages in older versions of ubuntu
[14:14:52] dekarl: given that SD is 1/3 or the reported guide user base
[14:15:01] dekarl: s/or/of/
[14:16:18] dekarl: Either way. I'm with you wrt "just move to 0.27.4, 0.26 (has so many regressions and) is oooold"
[14:17:15] stuartm: if someone else wants to do it they are welcome, but IMHO we should draw a line somewhere and one version behind the current stable release is that line for me
[14:17:48] stuartm: after all I did say "0.25 is End of Life" in the 0.27 release announcement
[14:17:58] stuarta: EOL = no updates
[14:18:08] stuartm: exactly
[14:18:44] stuartm: "I'd like to remind everyone that 0.25.x has now reached End of Life and 0.26.x is End of Support. Please upgrade to 0.27 to benefit from bug fixes and to receive support."
[14:18:54] stuartm: was the exact quote
[14:19:49] stuartm: meaning 0.25 will receive no further bug fixes, and 0.26 users cannot expect support
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[14:20:12] stuartm: but 0.26 may continue to get bug fixes if we feel generous
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[16:41:26] stuartm: we should add a version check (nagging popup) to 0.28, try to encourage users on older systems to upgrade so we don't end up with 0.31 being released with thousands of users still running 0.28
[16:43:50] dekarl: actually I like that idea. ask a server about the detailed version and general branch, then we can tell users of known bad daily versions to upgrade, too
[16:44:27] dekarl: maybe with a "repeat=4weeks" default to not bug users, to much ;)
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[17:04:50] dekarl: sometimes you just have to love them... "To the (pitch)forks!"
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[17:05:28] dekarl: its not that he couldn't contribute documentation today
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[17:33:03] tgm4883: stuartm: how would that exactly work?
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[17:37:10] stuartm: tgm4883: client simply contacts the mythtv server periodically to check the current release version, if it's different to the installed version then either display a popup or note it on the status screen
[17:37:28] tgm4883: hmm
[17:38:12] stuartm: I would make a popup optional, but enabled by default, and with enough of an interval that it wouldn't become annoying, just a gentle reminder
[17:39:18] stuartm: a bit like browsers now do routinely
[17:50:20] tgm4883: stuartm: when would you decide to pop that up though?
[17:50:38] tgm4883: I imagine to be useful, it would have to be during playback
[17:53:10] dekarl: idea, trigger it at the beginning of an ad break... we could shit our own "A new version of MythTV is out now!" clip :D
[17:53:18] dekarl: s/shit/ship/
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[18:50:35] tgm4883: dekarl: no, I think shit was probably the proper term
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[19:08:41] stuarta: dekarl: stuartm i seriously hate software that bugs me
[19:10:03] dekarl: stuarta, what other options do we have? politely close all tickets that are wrt to EOL/EOS versions?
[19:10:20] stuarta: the bugs probably still exist
[19:11:56] dekarl: politely ask to reproduce with the latest supported fixes version?
[19:12:15] tgm4883: dekarl: probably a "won't fix, version EOL. Please reproduce in latest version"
[19:12:25] tgm4883: that is exactly what we do for Mythbuntu
[19:12:28] dekarl: I do like the idea of rewarding users who stay more or less up to date with fixes
[19:13:23] dekarl: But I can understand the desire of motivating users to update from very old versions every now and then
[19:16:38] ** stuarta runs off again **
[19:19:22] tgm4883: is it just me, or does the mailing list seem crazier today than usual
[19:23:05] dekarl: I think they are preparing for revelation, too
[19:23:24] dekarl: oops s/revelation/revolution/
[19:24:48] stuartm: stuarta: everyone hates it, that's why it's effective :)
[19:26:16] ** stuartm has just had to unbreak his parents MythTV box because Ubuntu can't fscking clean up after itself, likely the last time I do that, done it too many times and I've had enough **
[19:28:14] tgm4883: stuartm: what happened?
[19:30:00] stuartm: it's setup to auto update, but again ran out of space because it doesn't automatically remove old kernels – there were four old point release kernels consuming 1GB of space
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[19:32:43] stuartm: it's embarrassing to keep getting calls telling me that the MythTV box is broken again
[19:33:28] tgm4883: stuartm: ah yea, old versions get left installed
[19:33:46] stuartm: if I forget to ssh in periodically and manually remove the old kernels ...
[19:35:39] tgm4883: stuartm: if it helps . . . veOldKernels
[19:38:01] stuartm: tgm4883: going to switch to Mageia instead which will remove 'orphaned' rpms
[19:38:19] tgm4883: that seems like a blunt approach
[19:38:47] stuartm: just easier, and safer, than setting up scripts to try and remove older kernels without accidentally removing them all
[19:41:50] stuartm: btw, does anyone want to defend the user in #12305 who thinks exposing MythTV on a public network is a good idea?
[19:41:50] ** MythLogBot **
[19:44:07] tgm4883: stuartm: hmm, if what he is saying is true, I would agree that making assumptions about the network you are connected to is bad. I have a hunch though that mythtv doesn't in fact just assume and actually queries the network from the system?
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[19:45:59] stuartm: I did actually consider the alternate approach of only responding to machines on the same subnet, but that's flawed in so far as what size – /24, /16 – impossible to know what's within the control of the user and what lies beyond
[19:48:01] stuartm: tgm4883: he's referring to the fact that I restricted connected to UPnP to IPs from the three reserved IP blocks for 'local' networks 10.x.x.x, 192.168.x.x and
[19:48:25] stuartm: er, connections, not connected
[19:48:47] tgm4883: stuartm: that makes sense to me
[19:49:00] tgm4883: if you want to use it remotely, setup a VPN
[19:49:25] tgm4883: although that seems to be a PITA as well
[19:50:16] stuartm: this was in response to more than one security issue with answering SSDP requests from internet – but the most recent being this one – . . . -locked.html
[19:50:36] tgm4883: stuartm: I say close the ticket as you did and mark it as you did
[19:51:04] tgm4883: maybe add that a VPN or ssh proxy would be a better solution for them
[19:51:51] stuartm: tgm4883: setting up vpns should be much easier than it is, I'm surprised that distros haven't reach the point of offering simple wizards that do all the work
[19:51:58] tgm4883: so completely off of that topic, I believe sphery and a few other have told me the best way to get involved with MythTV and learn C++ is to get start developing something I want it to do
[19:52:51] tgm4883: however that seems like a slightly large topic, as the only thing that comes to mind right now are "web setup", "separating videos by tv vs movies", etc
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[19:53:46] stuartm: tgm4883: yes that's what we recommend, although to avoid frustration it's prudent to discuss your plans first as we may have particular ideas how something should or shouldn't work etc
[19:54:09] tgm4883: stuartm: VPN's aren't that difficult, but I've been trying to set one up over the weekend to connect two houses and play games, it works, but the issue I have is the particular game (Civ 5) uses broadcast for finding local games and that causes problems as broadcasts aren't sent over openvpn tunnels
[19:54:22] tgm4883: that makes sense
[19:54:32] tgm4883: I probably also have to setup 0.28 somewhere
[19:54:52] tgm4883: and I feel my development in C++ is going to be a lot different than how I do things in python
[19:56:59] Roklobsta: stuartm: Mint 17 KDE has a vert nice VPN wizard built into the network manager on the desktop
[19:57:40] tgm4883: Roklobsta: I'm assuming he means the VPN server parts. network-manager has a VPN client built into it and it's pretty easy to use
[19:57:55] stuartm: tgm4883: there are gotchas with openvpn and others, and one too many things which are easy to overlook – I only connect to the internet on my phone via a vpn as a measure of security against rouge wifi operators, but my setup was still a little fragile until recently because of things like IP forwarding needing to remain enabled between reboots, and the shorewall routing config being incomplete
[19:59:36] stuartm: tgm4883: I think of the two you mentioned, the video one is easier, the changes would be confined to a smaller number of files and there are even examples you can use for inspiration (upnp in master splits videos in the way you describe)
[20:00:25] tgm4883: nice
[20:01:01] tgm4883: still, a pretty large learning curve I'm guessing, and I can't just make a quick change and see what it does (as I can easily do in python)
[20:01:13] Roklobsta: rouge wifi operators? do you mean communists?
[20:01:14] stuartm: the only downside is that parts of the video code are truly hideous, if you didn't know better you might suspect that they'd been run through a code obfuscater
[20:01:50] stuartm: Roklobsta: wifi operators who are intercepting login credentials etc
[20:02:02] Roklobsta: i am joking about your typo.
[20:02:15] stuartm: ah
[20:02:59] Roklobsta: well, for me 0.28 is a bust. nothing much records off DVB any more. and the MFE 100% is still happening in spite of some QTimer related bugs being fixed.
[20:03:11] stuartm: I start making a lot of typos at the end of a long day
[20:03:19] Roklobsta: for the 1st time in 6 years myth PC is off.
[20:03:43] stuartm: Roklobsta: I wonder why you're the only one having so many problems
[20:03:50] Roklobsta: it's a fresh install
[20:04:20] Roklobsta: i can't beleive tuners that used to work just fine in 0.27 fail with tuner timeouts now. the antenna socket is fine.
[20:04:59] Roklobsta: why does MBE talk to the tuners when it starts up? i have set all tuners to open on demand only.
[20:05:13] stuartm: Roklobsta: it checks that they are all working on startup
[20:05:20] Roklobsta: can it be staggered?
[20:05:29] stuartm: no ...
[20:05:40] Roklobsta: well that makes my afatech cards fail.
[20:05:45] stuartm: if that's causing your problems then it suggests there's a driver issue
[20:06:19] Roklobsta: yeah, i know it's an old driver problem. alas, DVB guys have well and truly moved on from that family.
[20:06:22] Roklobsta: of tuners
[20:06:43] stuartm: you could patch out that check
[20:07:28] Roklobsta: the afatech 9013/9015 dual tuners work really well except that only one frontend should be communicated with at a time, as in the whole transaction per front end should be atomic.
[20:07:59] Roklobsta: 0.27 MBE didn't seem to mess them up at startup like 0.28 does.
[20:09:03] Roklobsta: i used them for years. i only had usses if two front ends on the same card were schduled at the same time.
[20:09:08] Roklobsta: issues
[20:09:28] Roklobsta: then i2c errors then cold reboot then OK again.
[20:10:55] Roklobsta: i had tried using the DVB tuning delay option but the MBE UI doesn't record the value to the DB, it's always 0ms when readin it back.
[20:10:59] stuartm: I assume you've at least reported this to the linuxtv team?
[20:11:14] Roklobsta: i have spoken to antti about it a few times over the years. He's moved on.
[20:11:21] ** stuarta tars n feathers stuartm **
[20:11:38] stuartm: Roklobsta: right, but drivers are maintained by a whole team, not necessarily the original author
[20:12:02] Roklobsta: well, antti is the only one it seems with his head around the whole DVB drivers guts, nearly all of it is his work.
[20:12:22] stuartm: if we started working around every single driver bug we'd never do anything else
[20:12:26] Roklobsta: i know
[20:13:33] Roklobsta: mind you the chipset manufacturers could do a lot better with their drivers.
[20:14:00] Roklobsta: rather than rely on some guy in finland to do USB sniffs to reverse engineer the windows drivers.
[20:14:56] Roklobsta: at this point, i am happy to buy some new tuners but i have no idea which one is really reliable
[20:15:27] Roklobsta: my conexant, philips, zarlink, afatech, RTL2382U DVB receivers all fail.
[20:16:11] stuartm: fwiw, we do space out the tunings on startup by a second, not sure how they could be stomping on each other
[20:16:32] Roklobsta: ok
[20:16:39] Roklobsta: maybe the afatech needs more
[20:18:09] Roklobsta: the tuning delay value setting might just work but it's ignored.
[20:23:45] stuartm: see concurrent_tunings_delay at ln 58 of libs/libmythtv/recorders/dvbchannel.cpp
[20:23:56] Roklobsta: just looking in the code now... thanks
[20:25:54] Roklobsta: ok. the tuner gui defaults this delay to 0. i can set it to non-0, but if i open the screen again the value is 0 once more.
[20:26:15] Roklobsta: i did find a bug report on this the other day.
[20:29:25] stuartm: different delay
[20:30:09] stuartm: the one I mentioned is hardcoded and tries to prevent tuning on two different cards simultaneously
[20:30:26] Roklobsta: oh
[20:30:26] stuartm: hence 'concurrent tunings'
[20:30:45] Roklobsta: ah so tuning_delay is not the same
[20:31:02] Roklobsta: as the delya mentioned in the DVB tuner setup
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[20:39:57] Roklobsta: stuartm: thanks for the pointers, i'll have a look later at tuning_delay tonight
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[20:41:19] stuartm: concurrent_tunings_delay
[20:41:39] stuartm: not to be confused with the apparently unused tuning_delay
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[20:44:31] Roklobsta: aha indeed very different
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[20:50:02] Roklobsta: what is the path to the MBE DVB tuner setup page code?
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[21:17:27] dekarl: stuartm, can't we just read the ips and netmasks from the interface?
[21:18:57] dekarl: tgm4883: if you are more into python a grabber or some other grabbers (e.g. weather) would be a start, too
[21:21:09] stuartm: dekarl: I'm not following
[21:22:47] stuartm: we know the IP of the interface, what we don't know is, assuming that interface is on a public IP address, whether a request from another IP in the same subnet should be accepted
[21:22:49] dekarl: wrt to the bug report and only allowing upnp on rfc 1918 addresses
[21:23:42] dekarl: so we are protecting against source address spoofing? (I need to read the original issue)
[21:23:46] stuartm: other IPs in that subnet could be under the users control, or more likely they are other clients of the same ISP who should not be granted access
[21:23:55] stuartm: dekarl: yes
[21:24:21] dekarl: meh
[21:24:38] dekarl: that's a fight that we can't win while at the same time allowing nice setups
[21:25:14] stuartm: source address is spoofed, we want to avoid sending a reply to that spoofed IP since to do so allows the 'attacker' to DOS their target via your UPnP server, the reply sent by us is larger than the request
[21:26:14] stuartm: dekarl: this is why the IETF set aside IP blocks for use on private networks, there's no reason why anyone should be using public IP addresses inside a private network
[21:27:41] dekarl: unless you want to couple private networks later and are happy that everyone uses globally unique addresses... I hate enterprise NAT crap
[21:28:08] dekarl: that's why its the routers job to not accept spoofed source addresses
[21:28:24] dekarl: the backend can not fix the world
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[21:29:57] stuartm: we allow SSDPs from any of the public IP blocks, just not IPs outside those blocks, so a upnp client on can connect to a mythtv server on
[21:31:03] stuartm: which is why I didn't restrict it just to the /12 block of the server's IP
[21:33:43] dekarl: the amplification factor is 1.33? oh my
[21:35:14] dekarl: should we allow rfc 3927 addresses? OR is nobody using that?
[21:35:16] stuartm: not huge granted, but responding to any SSDP queries from the WAN just exposes our users to danger, granted they put themselves in that danger to begin with by not using a firewall
[21:38:17] stuartm: dekarl: actually we should ... can't believe I forgot those
[21:38:39] dekarl: If I understood correctly they are attacking the internet facing UPNP services of routers/machines behind the routers. If the backend is put on the internet you might as well just take over the machine...
[21:38:53] dekarl: thanks like three lines of php to do that
[21:39:41] dekarl: s/thanks/thats/
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[21:40:48] dekarl: I'm just picking the UPNP issue apart because it took quite some work to get it working with the backend on wired LAN and the client on wireless LAN. I ended up just bridging both as I couldn't get the multicast routing to work :(
[21:41:22] stuartm: correct, either upnp devices that are not behind NAT or which are explicitly exposed to the internet
[21:42:49] stuartm: at which point the 'bad guy' just has to send out a couple of SSDP discovery packets and all the affected devices will helpfully announce themselves, no port scanning etc required
[21:43:33] dekarl: huh?
[21:43:51] dekarl: isn't that address site local? (wanders off to look it up)
[21:44:42] dekarl: . . . d_addressing only IPv6 mentions a global scope address
[21:50:08] stuartm: yes, it's apparently limited to IPv6
[21:50:31] stuartm: look if you have a better fix, but a fix none the less go for it, it's late and I'm going to bed
[21:52:06] dekarl: Good idea.
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[22:02:48] dekarl: maybe I'll just add locally connected networks and move on . . . dressEntries
[22:10:37] tgm4883: rmeden: did you get the channel syncing utility finished?
[22:10:54] tgm4883: I ask, because over in the users channel "BLZbubba> i just added a new channel to my lineup, but mythtv is skipping the next 2 weeks since there is already data. is there a way to force it to update one channel?"
[22:22:57] rmeden: tgm4883: yup
[22:23:06] rmeden: it's been in for a few days now
[22:23:13] tgm4883: rmeden: ok, so he probably just needs to run --dd-grab-all then
[22:23:31] rmeden: not sure what you're talkikng about
[22:24:09] tgm4883: rmeden: mythfilldatabase stuff, not specific to DD
[22:24:11] rmeden: did he change lineups after connecting to the sd-dd server? I think I wiped everyone's lineups so they woudl be in sync, but don't remember.
[22:24:19] rmeden: but new changes are certainly synced
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