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Thursday, April 17th, 2014, 00:36 UTC
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[08:36:07] stuarta: gigem: has anyone actually done comparitive tests recently between mysql and the various embedded options?
[08:36:24] stuarta: until we do, we are all pissing in the wind about it
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[09:29:06] dekarl1: gigem :( I'll put in on "the list"
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[09:32:22] stuarta: i was contemplating yesterday how to go about coding up parallel databases so that i could compare scheduling times
[09:34:24] dekarl: as in two different databases at the same time or as in one of two possible databases at each time?
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[09:35:19] stuarta: both at the same time, so for example, dump eit data into db1, then into db2. run a schedule on db1, then on db2
[09:35:40] stuarta: so each runs on the same data under the same conditions
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[09:36:14] stuarta: like for like testing \o/
[09:39:17] dekarl: uhh, sounds like moving all our database code to some "Abstraction Layer" (QT Database thingy) and then having two instances of that... Sounds like it may be some work for unknown gains
[09:39:41] dekarl: haha, repeatable tests with the same environment, crazy stuff
[09:39:54] dekarl: ;)
[09:40:35] stuarta: it's already abstracted, just there is a fair bit of sql splattered about
[09:42:23] stuarta: i would be a bit more targeted tho, only add it into eit and schedule
[09:43:09] stuarta: this all assumes i have some time to actually do it in
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[09:54:44] stuarta: dekarl: does it sound like an act of madness to you? ;-)
[09:55:31] dekarl: It opens up some interesting cans of worms :) Like which schedule should the recorder obey?
[09:55:57] stuarta: well that's simple, you don't implement the recorder using anything but the normal one
[09:56:11] dekarl: in general what to do if the result sets of some query don't agree (maybe due to race conditions or so)
[09:56:49] stuarta: the perceived issue is performance of the BUSQ so what i'm suggesting a) generates equal data b) tests the BUSQ
[09:57:07] stuarta: obviously i'd have to sync recording rule changes
[10:02:49] stuarta: oooo ubuntu 14.04 out today \o/
[10:02:54] ** stuarta upgrades a build bot **
[10:18:43] stuarta: curses foiled again "no release available"
[10:19:04] stuarta: *no new release found
[10:19:05] stuartm: stuarta: it was I *think* kormoc who last didn't any tests, and a few years ago
[10:19:26] stuarta: stuartm: that's why i think it's worth revisiting
[10:20:02] stuartm: aye, IIRC embedded performed just as well, but then you'd expect it to for a single or low number of clients
[10:20:43] stuarta: done right there is only 1 client
[10:20:49] stuarta: the backend
[10:26:48] stuartm: exactly
[10:27:56] stuartm: the mysql daemon exists more or less entirely just to gracefully handled hundreds or thousands of simultaneous clients, we've not exactly been taxing it all these years :)
[10:38:59] stuarta: understatement
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[13:12:38] superm1: stuarta: if you are upgrading from LTS it won't offer upgrade to next LTS until the first point release
[13:13:34] superm1: You can override with do-release-upgrade -d
[13:13:41] stuarta: superm1: that's what i did :)
[13:13:57] ** stuarta was impatient **
[13:14:05] superm1: Heh
[13:14:21] stuarta: who cares if something breaks on a buildslave
[13:14:27] superm1: True
[13:15:46] dekarl: isn't that one of the point of the build slaves? To catch breakage?
[13:16:13] stuarta: yep
[13:21:04] stuarta: superm1: good to know that it won't offer to upgrade until .1 release
[13:59:34] superm1: Yeah we have a few known issues too that I would prefer people didn't hit right now too
[14:07:19] dekarl: will there be a Mythbuntu 14.04 LTS of the .0 release?
[14:08:21] dekarl: would be nice to get fixes that relate to new installations into the next Mythbuntu release, e.g. . . . 4cb6e52d9254
[14:24:37] gigem: dekarl: Okay, though, I suspect testing might be difficult due to the amount of data involved and dealing with hot vs. cold caches, etc.
[14:27:06] gigem: stuarta: No, to the best of my knowledge, no one has done anything in several years. Chutt's brother tired using sqlite, but that must have been at least eight years ago. If embedded mysql works like I think it should, that would be fairly easy to try. The main thing with that is it gives myth much tighter control over the db configuration, something sphery I'm sure would like. The biggest problem with
[14:27:08] gigem: any other alternatives would be the large amount of mysql-specific sql we use.
[14:29:56] superm1: dekarl: yeah .0 is releasing today
[14:30:14] superm1: we'll have to SRU stuff like that at some point i guess
[14:38:49] dekarl: sounds like we can start the errate page already :)
[14:42:43] stuarta: gigem: mysql embedded is worth testing
[15:04:38] sphery: the main slowdown on embedded mysql (or mariadb) is that it's single-process/non-networked, so we have to create a full-fledged data server and data protocol to be able to use it as we do now, or we need to completely remove all direct DB access from everything other than the MBE
[15:06:08] sphery: (in other words, only the process in which mysql/mariadb is embedded can use the embedded database)
[15:14:43] superm1: that is the direction things already seem to be moving with the services API anyhow though right?
[15:30:00] stuarta: superm1: we could leverage and extend the services framework to allow access to the db that wasy
[15:52:06] stuarta: other option is via the mythproto, but i think webservices are more flexible
[15:56:08] stuartm: I don't believe there is presently a simple internal API to the services and we'd want to create one first
[15:59:22] stuarta: there is a lot of work there that can be done
[15:59:38] stuarta: s/can/needs to/
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[16:16:36] stuarta: does anybody know if processes the backend starts up properly inherit the environment from the backend?
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[16:17:07] gigem: sphery: Lack of other process connectivity was my biggest fear with embedded mysql. I hadn't seen any reference to it before, but hadn't specifically looked for it either yet until now. From . . . ctions.html: "You cannot connect to an embedded server from an outside process with sockets or TCP/IP. However, you can connect to an intermediate application,
[16:17:10] gigem: which in turn can connect to an embedded server on the behalf of a remote client or outside process." That second sentence is a bit intriguing, though. Is that supposed to mean multiple processes can simultaneously access the same database with their own embedded server? If so, that could still allow some experimentation on a combined be/fe.
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[16:31:44] sphery: gigem: "However, you can connect to an intermediate application, which in turn can connect to an embedded server on the behalf of a remote client or outside process," means, "You can create a mythdataserver process that mythbackend, mythfrontend, ... can use to pull data from the database embedded in mythdataserver."  :)
[16:32:55] sphery: FWIW, that is the first-step I've been planning for the embedded DB.
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[17:05:23] gigem: sphery: To me, that whole sentence raises more questions than it answers. For starters, in this context, 'intermediate application' means not the application running the embedded database to me. If your interpretation is correct, it doesn't sound like an appealing option for us in the near term. We'd simply be trading the complexity of configuring and using an external database for the complexity of
[17:05:26] gigem: writing our own data server.
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[17:37:30] stuartm: that's not exactly my interpretation, to me it means that libmysqld comes with no server itself, 'intermediate application' in this case simply means the application using the lib e.g. mythbackend needs to implement the server to proxy queries to the embedded db
[17:39:11] stuartm: since mythbackend is already a server, it has the bits to handle the connections (either mythprotocol or webservice) and it only needs an extension to those to handle a DB_QUERY type arg
[17:40:53] stuartm: although I'd suggest it's done via a dedicated socket and via an internal protocol e.g. mythprotocol, rather than exposing the DB via web services which expressly defeats the whole point of the services API acting as a gatekeeper, protecting against garbage being inserted into the database
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[18:05:25] sphery: right, the data server can be (master) mythbackend or can be a separate application (mythdataserver)... I agree that not exposing the DB is the best approach, and the main reason I'm for mythdataserver as opposed to putting (yet another piece) in mythbackend is so that users can run it on any host (some have already complained "I shouldn't have to run the database on the same host as the master backend because my <pogoplug/ARM device/... can't ...
[18:05:32] sphery: ... handle it")
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[18:06:36] sphery: remember, though, that if we just stick the data serving into mythbackend, we'll have to remember that only the master will have the database and need (a lot more) if (isMasterBackend()) checks all around so slave backends will request the data
[18:07:01] sphery: (which is the other reason I'm for a separate data server--so all backends (master or slave) are the same when it comes to data retrieval)
[18:14:03] dekarl: isn't that what "split into master backend, recording service, file service" is about? the master will only hold the database and the scheduler
[18:15:16] dekarl: so the MBE role will be central point of contact for service api, database storage api, scheduling
[18:15:35] dekarl: and recording, transcoding, file serving is done be slave services
[18:16:04] dekarl: finally people can use their powerful RaspberryPi for MPEG-2 to H.264 transcoding services :)
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[18:25:20] stuartm: aye, if we did split up things I'd rather keep 'core' functionality like talking to the DB in mythbackend and split out the bits specific to slaves
[18:26:51] stuartm: but I'm also wary about tying embedding the db and completely redesigning the applications into one project because that's usually a recipe for absolutely no progress being made, the job becomes too big, too hard and too dangerous
[18:31:54] gary_buhrmaster: sphery: While I have *some* sympathy for people who want to run everything in their iWatch, people do need to understand that some functionality just takes resources. I guess "we" need to figure out a way to put the scheduler in the cloud and make it free (advertiser supported!)
[18:33:15] gary_buhrmaster: sphery: [Aereo case argued next Tuesday in SCOTUS.]
[18:35:02] stuartm: bah, why did pidora both to ask whether I wanted a graphical environment if it was still going to install xfce bloat
[18:38:04] gary_buhrmaster: stuartm: I have found most of the "spins" of Fedora to be more bother than they are worth. Their idea of "what is best" is rarely what I think of as "best". I just install the minimal Fedora, and install what *you* want. That is what I did with my BBB.
[18:42:16] stuartm: gary_buhrmaster: using the pidora image was just a quick way of getting running, I won't stick with it, just needed something to test my radios and I long ago repurposed the SD card I'd previously used with the Pi
[18:43:17] stuartm: of course the time I'm spending uninstalling stuff I don't need just so I have some free space ... well that wasn't part of the plan :)
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[18:48:09] gary_buhrmaster: stuartm: In my experience, having a plan is a good thing. It never survives first contact with the enemy. The enemy is often myself.
[19:03:45] jheizer: FYI to those discussing 14.04 upgrade earlier, I've had a few things fail on me so watch out when you do.
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[19:24:04] dekarl: jheizer: got details, so there's a chance to fix it for the next person to upgrade?
[19:26:30] jheizer: I haven't had a chance to fix them myself. Summary: libvirt/KVM is doing nothing, apache doesn't like the config for mythweb (-ALL option), mythweb is stuck in limbo in apt, reboot never halts (physical console was unresponsive)
[19:27:24] jheizer: The hard reboot degraded my raid5 so I am letting it sync while I do "real" work.
[19:37:12] dekarl: I think the apache config may already be fixed
[19:38:30] dekarl: fixed in fixes/0.27 . . . 41e5805844d5
[19:38:35] jheizer: Ah ok. I'll check git on that. On and lirc overwrote my configs, but I had backups
[19:38:45] ** jheizer was too slow **
[19:39:52] dekarl: but sounds like its less broken then when I moved to 12.04 :)
[19:40:12] jheizer: libvirt is the one one hurting me right now as I use it for work stuff. I work from home so anything I can load from my local server instances is less I have to pull via vpn constantly.
[19:40:34] jheizer: haha yeah at least it boots
[19:40:47] jheizer: didn't one of the past upgrades not even do that?
[19:42:38] ryan_turner|MTW is now known as simzluver
[19:45:07] superm1: jheizer: mythweb stuck in limbo in apt? can you elaborate?
[19:47:39] simzluver is now known as ryan_turner|MTW
[19:48:21] superm1: the -ALL thing we need to add some code in to fix that on upgrade yet for sure, just haven't gotten around to it. only does the right thing on clean install right now
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[19:55:02] gigem: sphery, stuartm: I understand what you're saying, and don't doubt that you're right, but I still contend the use of word 'intermediate' was a bad choice. It's obvious that *an* application must already host the embedded database, so just say *that* one must provide the proxy to any other applications.
[19:55:26] gigem: Anyway, I have to say this new information has somewhat diminished my desire to use any of the existing embedded options. I'd really hate to lose the ability to run ad hoc queries with a full-featured, SQL client or run 'mythbackend --testsched' on a running system.
[19:56:51] jheizer: superm1, sorry for the delay. Got on a phone call. Where you can remove or install it. " subprocess installed post-removal script returned error exit status 11" etc
[19:57:04] jheizer: 1, not 11 but you get me
[19:57:18] superm1: jheizer: ah ok that's the thing we just fixed today
[19:57:53] superm1:
[19:58:07] superm1: it hasn't populated into the repositories yet, still in proposed
[19:59:31] superm1: if you're still broken right now, you can fix the rm line in /var/lib/dpkg/info/mythweb.postrm and it should handle itself
[19:59:52] jheizer: Ah cool. Thanks for the help.
[19:59:58] jheizer: You guys were on it.
[20:00:20] superm1: well sorta, we are scrambling for too much last minute and need to delay the mythbuntu release
[20:00:25] superm1: wish we had more people testing earlier
[20:01:17] superm1: you might have also gotten hit by . . . +bug/1307546 or . . . +bug/1308105 which we aren't as fortunate to have fixes for yet
[20:02:21] jheizer: If installing a fresh FE and/or slave install in a VM would help as a test, let me know.
[20:02:43] jheizer: hmm, upgraded my 2 FE machines just because, but I haven't gone upstairs and checked them.
[20:02:56] jheizer: All appears to be ok via ssh except their lirc configs were wiped as well.
[20:03:18] superm1: once we have a new ISO spun, some more testing on it would be helpful thanks. we'll ping ya.
[20:03:28] jheizer: lol well in a VM if I can get libvirt running again.
[20:03:46] superm1: the lirc thing, if you are using a custom config, there is a way to stop that from happening
[20:03:52] jheizer: it is weird, no errors that I can find, it just never starts up.
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[20:05:28] jheizer: I'll be honest and I was upgrading 3 machines at once while trying to figure out why another software company's software is dieing at my clients. So I may have missed that overwrite no selection..
[20:05:56] jheizer: Sucks when your software depends on another companies and randomly their web services takes 15+ seconds to respond.
[20:06:57] superm1: backup your current config files, dpkg-reconfigure lirc, and make sure you have "Custom" picked for the remote
[20:08:23] stuartm: gigem: yes, it's a terrible choice of words
[20:11:02] stuartm: gigem: fwiw, I don't think we've established that it's impossible to point another app or mysql itself at the database files, just that it wouldn't seem to be possible to do so via a network connection
[20:12:28] jheizer: superm1, thanks. A billion years of using Myth and I never knew that.
[20:12:32] stuartm: so in theory at least it may be possible to have mysqld running, pointing at the same directory as mythbackend and able to interact with the same database (although it may not be safe to have both doing so at the same time)
[20:12:43] superm1: jheizer: yeah we should have it documented somewhere, but probably don't
[20:14:00] stuartm: superm1: heh, that's bitten me a couple of times when I forgot to backup my config – have made a note of the 'fix' for future reference
[20:14:21] superm1: i didn't realize so many people used non standard configs
[20:14:30] superm1: mceusb's default config works perfectly for me
[20:14:32] superm1: so i just use that
[20:15:59] stuartm: superm1: I like to bind a key for subtitles and a couple of other changes, but mostly I want my remote configs to be identical between my dev and production system, and my dev system obviously isn't running mythbuntu :)
[20:17:27] superm1: ah.
[20:20:01] jheizer: For me it is the addition of the hd-pvr blaster using a second lirc port on 2 machines
[20:20:20] jheizer: Probably why I never cared over the years until I had them.
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[22:22:37] gigem: stuartm: That would be nice if mysql allowed direct access to the files from separate processes, but I'd be very surprised if that is the case. Ironically, I'm pretty sure sqlite can do that. Unfortunately, there much that we do that it can't do like deletes and updates referencing multiple tables.
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