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Thursday, March 28th, 2013, 00:02 UTC
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[02:03:24] jafa: ok, who has been messing with HDHomeRun support in MythTV? :-)
[02:04:56] jafa: I have been investigating customer complaints about video glitching – traced it to MythTV setting a PID filter 10 times a second (same PIDs) which we were not handling well on the HDHomeRun side
[02:05:34] jafa: I have updated the HDHomeRun firmware so it will handle it
[02:05:51] jafa: will look at the MythTV side sometime
[02:06:52] jafa: related – I have QuickTune turned on, so MythTV should not have been setting the PID filter at all... looks like QuickTune support isn't working by virtue of the PID filter being set
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[02:14:52] jafa: or at least the PID filter nukes the QuickTune that was in progress
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[02:25:31] Evidlo: I just installed mythtv, but when I launch mythtvbackend I constantly get the message "Starting Mythlogserver." I have tried with superuser.
[02:26:57] tonsofpcs: #mythtv-users
[02:29:15] Evidlo: sorry
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[03:14:35] gary_buhrmaster: jafa: I am not a dev, but I do not recall any updated to the (recorder specific) hdhr codes. It is seems likely that it is from a parent class change. Any idea when the reports started?
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[04:20:07] stichnot: jafa: Do you know the version(s) of MythTV causing the problem? (I don't really know anything about that area, but #11334 rings a bell.)
[04:20:07] ** MythLogBot **
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[05:01:39] jafa: reproduced on 0.25.2 (0.25-fixes)
[05:02:36] jafa: so a while ago I guess
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[11:36:36] stuarta: damn netsplits
[11:40:22] kenni: jafa: Thanks for the quick firmware workaround :) I don't think anyone has really touched that code since Robert McNamara did a number of changes to the code back in the pre0.25 days. I've seen multiple user reports that it broke when MythTV 0.25 was released, it didn't break for me, so I didn't pay much attention to it back then.
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[11:43:26] kenni: stichnot: 0.25-fixes, 0.26-fixes and master
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[13:09:19] lilalinux: aloha
[13:09:25] lilalinux: does mythtv support livebuffer?
[13:09:43] lilalinux: I want to use mythtv as backend for my xbmc
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[15:57:38] dekarl-too: lilalinux: I think you'll get a better answer #xbmc but google hinted at so something seems to work sometimes
[15:57:54] lilalinux: thank you
[15:58:19] dekarl-too: y/w
[15:58:20] lilalinux: but as the backend is responsible for saving streams to disk, I thought it's a backend feature
[15:58:43] dekarl-too: mythtv supports livetv, but who knows what works with xbmc ;)
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[16:17:38] caseyd: Is there any chance of adding support for copy-once television stations?
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[18:10:54] stuartm: zero, it's just impossible
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[18:32:26] sphery: too bad he didn't stick around to get the reply (or move to/ask again in -users or on list), since it would be nice for more people to understand it's not up to us
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[20:44:11] stuartm: sphery: your email reminds me that we NEED to fix DVB cards being described as 'Capture cards' in mythtv-setup
[20:45:10] stuartm: obviously auto-detection would be even better, but until then let's at least fix those descriptions so they cause minimal confusion
[20:45:48] stuartm: think I'll fix the ordering too so that the most commonly used card types are listed before the old v4l/ivtv analogue stuff
[20:51:32] sphery: stuartm: yeah, that would help a bunch... we still have quite a few people who use V4L--probably because it sounds good "I want Video in Linux, so..." and it's one of the first/default ones
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[21:14:49] stuartm: the dvb drivers are from the v4l project, just not the same API as the analogue stuff, so it's an easy mistake to make
[21:15:35] sphery: right
[21:16:26] ** stuartm fires up the editor **
[21:28:02] stuartm: danielk22: is it correct that the HDPVR stuff is wrapped in USING_V4L2, or is it a mistake? I don't actually know much about the HDPVR driver/API but I'd assumed they were completely separate to v4l2?
[21:29:48] jpabq: stuartm: the HD-PVR driver falls under v4l2.
[21:30:11] jpabq: It uses the v4l2 ioctl interface.
[21:30:20] stuartm: jpabq: thanks, learnt something new :)
[21:31:25] jpabq: Even so, I have been somewhat tempted to break it out of mpegrecorder.cpp and redo it as it's own 'recorder' in the same architecture as the 'other' recorders.
[21:31:49] jpabq: If I did that, then it would be fairly easy to implement 'multirec' with the HD-PVR>
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[21:39:44] stuartm: ok, I've re-ordered the selection as follows DVB, HDPVR, HDHomeRun, Firewire, Ceton, IPTV, MPEG2 Analogue Encoder, MJPEG Analog Encoder, MPEG4 Analog Encoder, Analog Capture, ASI
[21:41:59] stuartm: I've changed the strings, feedback on those would be welcome:
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[21:59:09] skd5aner: stuartm: reading far in to the backlog (a few days), but current mythmusic no longer allows you to display/group by letter (unfortunately) – it's now just one long list too
[21:59:44] stuartm: skd5aner: that's not true at all?
[21:59:44] skd5aner: stuartm: but, I do really like that methodology and is VERY common with touchscreen interfaces – particulary android and iOS
[22:00:03] stuartm: depends on the view you select (just as with the old mythmusic)
[22:00:24] skd5aner: I sure couldn't find a way to do it? perhaps I'm missing it??
[22:00:34] skd5aner: in the old version it was my default – very helpful
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[22:00:48] skd5aner: (that said – I'm also running 0.26-fixes, so maybe it has changed in master?)
[22:01:20] skd5aner: stuartm: what view are you referring to "Playlist editor"?
[22:01:24] stuartm: hasn't changed
[22:01:56] stuartm: skd5aner: aye
[22:02:06] skd5aner: For me, if I go to artists, the next column is just every artist I have in 1 alphabetical list – I recall seeing several users complain about this on the mailing lists in the past as well
[22:02:38] skd5aner: I very well could have something not set right, or the theme isn't handling it that way – do you know how I can make it behave the way you indicate?
[22:03:02] stuartm: ah, ok, sorry my bad, you're right, I thought it was sub-divided A/Z
[22:03:41] skd5aner: gotcha – thanks for checking and confirming I wasn't missing something I've desperately missed :)
[22:03:54] stuartm: I was remembering wrong, sorry for insisting, I should have double-checked first
[22:04:00] skd5aner: also, my young daughter just through a tantrum because I turned off Mickey Mouse to go in to mythmusic to check
[22:04:01] skd5aner: :D
[22:05:11] stuartm: fwiw, if that's implemented (and it probably should be) then it needs to depend on the number of artists overall, no point sub-dividing it that way if you've only got a few different artists
[22:05:19] stuartm: but it makes total sense for huge collections
[22:05:23] skd5aner: stuartm: no worries... it's a feature that made navigating my rather large music collection very easy – but it's very painful to scroll now (even with page down/page up
[22:06:20] skd5aner: I would say if you have at least 50 artists? Then, you most likely have enough to cover a good portion of the alphabet
[22:06:27] skd5aner: thinking out loud here
[22:06:35] stuartm: I've just noticed that the sorting is FUBAR anyway, artist names starting with lower case are at the end of the list after Z ...
[22:07:17] skd5aner: ah, yea... I didn't even check for that... All of my tags have been set by musicbrainz, so they're fairly standard, consistent, and accurate
[22:07:51] stuartm: paul-h: don't know if you saw that, the sorting in the playlist editor isn't case-insensitive
[22:07:57] skd5aner: stuartm: ID3 has a tag for sort order, it'd be good if MythTV would observe and use that if it's set
[22:08:25] stuartm: skd5aner: some band names intentionally start with a lower case letter and that's the issue here
[22:08:50] skd5aner: All of mine have that tagged – musicbrainz helps set that in a consistent manner so bands with "The" are sorted properly, and artists with firstname lastname are actually sorted "lastname, firstname"
[22:09:16] skd5aner: stuartm: yea, very true... and musicbrainz would keep that styling if it was true to the band's name
[22:09:23] skd5aner: (as an FYI)
[22:09:49] stuartm: skd5aner: interesting, here, at least for the classical stuff, I've just tagged the artist field them lastname, firstname
[22:09:53] stuartm: s/them//
[22:10:40] stuartm: of course I'd like to add proper composer support for classical stuff, since artist/composer aren't quite the same
[22:11:24] skd5aner: Yea... so, I used Picard Tagger, which will set the artist name with the common display name "Johan Sebastian Bach", but then will set the sort name as "Bach, Johan Sebastian"
[22:11:39] skd5aner: iTunes, for example, will honor the sortorder tag, but display the artist name tag
[22:11:53] skd5aner: so will iPhones/iPods
[22:12:21] skd5aner: and, google music / android music player does as well
[22:13:05] skd5aner: Classical tags are always the most challenging – performer vs composser vs conductor etc
[22:15:40] skd5aner: I think my music tags are one of the things I've been the most anal retentive about... I want them to be perfect, complete, and consistent... I'd be screwed without musicbrainz
[22:16:15] skd5aner: All of the other tagging sources are aweful... FreeDB, CDDB, bleh – next to worthless
[22:16:34] skd5aner: and even itunes and amazon don't really tag their stuff that well – I've caught several errors
[22:18:52] skd5aner: dekarl1 is my fellow mb evangelist ;)
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[22:19:08] stuartm: I've had to fix quite a few tagging errors in the past, and some sources are inconsistent about including stuff like year (which isn't vital but is still useful)
[22:19:42] stuartm: there have been some amusing genre tags too, e.g. english modern folk tagged as Reggae
[22:20:29] skd5aner: stuartm: yea, mb picard tagger and be done with it – bet it'll be 98% what you need, and for the other 2%, go in and edit the artist/album/track and fix it so that it's complete for the next guy :D
[22:20:45] stuartm: every time I've visited MB I've just been frustrated by the website/navigation, I've no idea if they've improved it any, but in the past it's been awful
[22:20:58] skd5aner: then, it'll also add an mbid tag, and then you can quickly update in the future since it knows exactly which track/album/artist you said it was
[22:21:31] skd5aner: see, I know you've said that before – but for me, it's very straight forward, but I've been using it since like 2002/2003, so I'm pretty used to it
[22:21:48] sphery: stuartm: FWIW, regarding "quick scrolling button list" Paul mentioned them after your last conversation :
[22:22:12] skd5aner: so, I can understand where there might be some familiarity/learning curve items for folks who aren't as familiar
[22:22:22] skd5aner: the picard tagger is significately better now
[22:25:04] stuartm: sphery: yeah I saw it, I'm just remaining on the fence about it since I've never really liked the approach, I think there are better and perhaps more generally useful solutions yet to be thought of
[22:25:06] skd5aner: drag and drop an album in to the tagger, hit search, and see if the result matches... if not, click the button to look it up on the website, and then send the right one back to the tagger
[22:26:39] stuartm: sphery: if it wins the popular vote I'm not going to fight it, I just can't ignore my gut instinct that it's a hack rather than a genuine UX/UI improvement
[22:27:13] sphery: ah, I thought he meant that was the A-Z lists on screen, but it sounds like that means the "hit 2 a number of times to get some letter" stuff--which, I'll agree isn't good (as it completely breaks key bindings)
[22:27:46] sphery: How many times did we get the bug report that you couldn't type a 0 (because 0 was typed with a 9)
[22:27:52] stuartm: sphery: it's a hit 3 to move down the list 30%
[22:28:07] sphery: ah, or even that... still breaks bindings
[22:28:29] stuartm: hit 2 to move to D doesn't work generically because many lists aren't sorted A-Z
[22:28:43] sphery: we should have a separate action for "SCROLL10" – "SCROLL90" (or whatever) and let users bind keys as they desire
[22:29:16] sphery: Yeah, I was thinking the T-9 like thing.. 2 = ABC, 3 = DEF, ...
[22:30:26] sphery: anyway, I hope we don't add any overloads for keys bindings--and that if someone has a new action, they add a proper action
[22:31:10] sphery: of course, if I got the key bindings "themes" (downloadable/sharable) finished, that would be easier to convince people to do (since it would mean defining them once, rather than on every single system)
[22:31:50] stuartm: having lists grouped by something relevant to the context alphabetically, date, etc with that grouping evident on-screen, and navigable using a mouse/touchscreen as easily as a keyboard makes the most sense to me
[22:33:06] stuartm: but it would mean redesigning screens such as 'Watch Recordings', for the better ultimately but it would upset a lot of people who were used to how it works now
[22:33:22] sphery: right, agreed--and same in recordings and video... having to go to frontend settings to change the sort order in watch recordings is too much work
[22:34:09] sphery: yeah, but I think it would be worthwhile in the long run... perhaps they'll be more accepting if I finish tags... I really need to get back to work on mythtv
[22:34:34] stuartm: yeah, same even for mythvideo where you have to go into the context menu, bring up a filter dialog, select the filter criteria (most people would only change one criteria) and then 'save' the changes
[22:34:43] sphery: right
[22:35:04] sphery: and save without saving as default (I change my default about 50% of the time by accident)
[22:36:59] stuartm: seems much simpler, if a little less powerful, to have those same criteria Title/Year/Director/Genre as permanent dynamic groupings – mythmusic's playlist editor is the relevant model here, easier to look at that than for me to try and describe it
[22:39:08] sphery: agreed... and could even "save" which level you're in, so if you want to only see grouped by Title, just go to title grouping and exit somewhere within it... next time it opens to the title grouping, but you can always go back "up" a level to choose a different sort
[22:39:26] stuartm: yup
[22:41:01] skd5aner: I wouldn't worry to much about upsetting people... some people don't want change, but almost all people want "improvement"
[22:41:10] skd5aner: change without improvement is generally what people grumble over
[22:42:17] skd5aner: and change with regression or "dis-improvement" will cause the most strife amongst users
[22:42:29] sphery: skd5aner: no, the definition of improvement is what most people grumble over
[22:42:39] stuartm: heh, an improvement for one person isn't necessarily an improvement for another and that's where it gets tricky
[22:43:24] sphery: MythTV's biggest problem is "workflow":
[22:43:48] skd5aner: Well, I like the agile/lean approach... put it out there, and see how people respond. If people outright hate it, be prepared to change it again
[22:44:12] skd5aner: prove or disprove your hypothesis by testing
[22:44:48] sphery: and poor children freeze to death in the winter
[22:44:54] sphery: (see xkcd link)
[22:47:40] skd5aner: Well, not everyone is going to happy – but you'll never know if an idea is good or bad if you don't test it
[22:50:42] skd5aner: and, if it's general received as a bad idea, time to pivot!
[22:51:48] sphery: yeah, agreed
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[23:02:22] dekarl1 is now known as dekarl
[23:04:19] stuartm: there, made my contribution to mythtv for this cycle :p
[23:04:33] stuartm: should have done that years ago
[23:04:49] dekarl: stuartm, wrt to reordering selections in setup. What do you think about moving the Universal LNB in front, so its the default?
[23:05:59] stuartm: dekarl: that's another good idea, I'd even assume Universal LNB by default for new DVB-S cards so it 'just works' for most people without needing to go into diseqc setup
[23:06:38] stuartm: AFAIK that shouldn't cause any explosions of hardware if it's wrong
[23:08:55] dekarl: aye, making the common user story "just work" was my idea after helping someone figure out why only half of the channel work. All working frequencies were in the same band...
[23:09:32] stuartm: heh
[23:10:16] dekarl: would that do it?
[23:11:31] stuartm: dekarl: it's often the little things that make the biggest improvements, and these even come up regularly but unfortunately it's rare that something actually gets done (and I'm one of the worst offenders for "Wouldn't it be good if ...")
[23:12:14] dekarl: ^- not sure if I can test it without a card with DVB-S frontend
[23:12:30] stuartm: dekarl: seems like it would, I can test it
[23:13:10] dekarl: stuartm. That would be cool. One patch less to rebase until good to commit ;)
[23:13:53] stuartm: apparently to download the patch I need a launchpad account ... who though of that?
[23:14:03] stuartm: thought
[23:14:41] dekarl: ouch, that must be new
[23:14:56] stuartm: I'm copy/pasting instead
[23:15:14] dekarl: hmm, which pastebin works better?
[23:16:22] stuartm: at the moment, was still having uptime issues the last time I checked
[23:16:40] skd5aner: stuartm: if you are one of the worst offenders, I must be one of the "ultra-worst" offenders :D
[23:17:34] stuartm: dekarl: I think I probably do have a launchpad account, but it wasn't worth looking up the login details for a 30 line patch :)
[23:20:08] dekarl: either way, you made me configure pastebinit for the first time =>
[23:21:36] skd5aner: love pastebinit
[23:22:40] dekarl: ^- not sure how that comes around... thank you for finally doing it ;)
[23:22:57] stuartm: heh
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[23:24:08] dekarl: I was procrastinating...
[23:33:40] stuartm: hmm, triggered configuration isn't initialising correctly for the reordered device list :/
[23:35:22] dekarl: would have been to easy...
[23:36:59] paul-h: stuartm: RE: the sorting in the playlist editor isn't case-insensitive I've made a note to have a look at it but can't in all honesty say its high on my TODO list so feel free to take a look yourself if it bothers you
[23:37:42] stuartm: dekarl: well your patch seems fine, it's mine that's exposed a problem
[23:38:18] paul-h: Not sure if QMap can sort the key case insensitively
[23:38:34] stuartm: dekarl: I'll do a proper test tomorrow, I'm using the backend to record atm which means I can't actually create a new entry in the DB
[23:38:52] dekarl: stuartm: ty
[23:38:55] stuartm: paul-h: I'll see what can be done
[23:45:15] paul-h: stuartm: any idea what might be causing #11464. I think it must be user error of some kind but can't think what
[23:45:15] ** MythLogBot **
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[23:48:35] stuartm: paul-h: my best guess would be the same as Raymond, that it's a filesystem issue, the user doesn't actually deny using a samba mount just that the disc is local
[23:49:11] stuartm: as you know there is nothing in the scanner code to replace characters of any kind
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[23:51:10] stuartm: just possible that it's a database issue, they are using a non-standard engine instead of MyISAM or InnoDB which doesn't like those characters, but we need more information
[23:57:20] stuartm: paul-h: I noticed that the import option does replace : with -, so it's possible they used 'Import Music' at some point, perhaps by mistake, then changed the configured music directory without rescanning? Whichever explanation you go with it's all user-error
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