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Saturday, December 8th, 2012, 00:03 UTC
[00:03:05] stuartm: brb, going to see if restarting fixes the tearing with vdpau that's developed overnight
[00:03:20] stuartm (stuartm!~stuartm@mythtv/developer/stuartm) has quit (Quit: Gone)
[00:04:57] knightr: danielk22, suprisingly according to wikipedia one of them is similar but not identical... yyyy年mm月dd日 for Japan and yyyy年m月d日forChina...
[00:05:46] knightr: They were asked for by one of our Chinese translators we have no Japanese translator) so identifying them as Japanese will create confusion though...
[00:06:41] knightr: BTW, it's kinda weird that we need to use Qt specify stuff to be C++03 compatible..
[00:07:58] knightr: BTW, are we sure everybody that touches those file uses an editor that won't mess with the UTF-8 characters?
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[00:10:42] stuartm: knightr: no, but git will identify anyone that does corrupt it and they will be dealt with swiftly and harshly
[00:11:11] knightr: stuartm, :-)
[00:11:12] stuartm: an instant 99% pay cut
[00:11:48] stuartm: knightr: there are one or two other places where utf8 chars are used, I'm sure it will be fine
[00:12:16] ** knightr is Rotfl... **
[00:16:36] stuartm: I wonder if git has any option to spot character set changes, svn did iirc
[00:19:02] stuartm: restarting did help, these Nvidia drivers really suck, I should try to figure out what I was using before and revert
[00:20:20] Kevin`: can't use nouveau?
[00:23:07] knightr: stuartm, if it's that safe I guess I could use the UTF-8 characters directly instead of using their values, it would avoid all those conversion problems altogether...
[00:25:07] ** knightr keyboard is going bonkers, I can no longer type some characters that must be type using the shift key, looks like my PC needs to be rebooted pretty soon... **
[00:25:16] knightr: s/type/typed
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[00:31:20] knightr: danielk22, if you don't mind I'll replace the character values with the actual characters. If we can be sure nobody messes with the character encoding/set of those files there is no reason to using character values instead of the character themselves...
[00:31:57] knightr: oops, no reason to use...
[00:48:16] danielk22: knightr: yes there is, it's not legal C++..
[00:49:03] knightr: danielk, doing something like map["mt"] = QString::fromUtf8("Malti");
[00:49:03] knightr: which we do elsehwere is not legal C++?
[00:50:06] knightr: oops, I meant something like map["ja"] = QString::fromUtf8("日本語");
[00:50:08] danielk22: The \u isn't legal until C++11 and only with u8""
[00:50:33] knightr: danielk22, I mean replacing with the characters themselves...
[00:50:38] knightr: like what I peasted...
[00:50:45] knightr: s/peaster/pasted
[00:50:51] knightr: that would be legal, right?
[00:51:12] danielk22: nope.
[00:51:27] knightr: why?
[00:52:06] danielk22: It's just not in the language.
[00:52:34] danielk22: The stuff in "" needs to be in the range 0–127.
[00:53:10] danielk22: In C++ this has been extended with the u8/u16 stuff, but it's too early to rely on that.
[00:53:17] knightr: ouch, I ate ASCII... :)
[00:53:24] knightr: s/ate/hate
[00:54:12] knightr: stuartm ^ looks like the list of languages and country will have to be redone...
[00:54:24] danielk22: It's definitely nicer to use the actual characters!
[00:55:02] danielk22: Where is that list? I didn't see it in the compiler warnings.
[00:55:13] knightr: danielk22, the weirdthing about it is that we have to rely on the fact we use Qt...
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[00:55:27] knightr: iso639.cpp
[00:55:36] knightr: in libmythbase
[00:55:58] knightr: there's another one elsewhere too, let me find it...
[00:56:15] knightr: it should normally be an ISO-3166 list...
[00:56:33] danielk22: Bokm�l for example?
[00:57:11] knightr: Bokmal is a variant of Norwegian IIRC...
[00:57:38] danielk22: No idea why that didn't show up in the warnings.. maybe those characters just happen to use codesets below 127?
[00:58:03] danielk22: Seems unlikely for something like 漢語
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[00:58:45] knightr: lol, the other table is in iso3166.cpp in libmythbase...
[00:59:31] knightr: (we use the ISO-3166 table a lot at work...)
[00:59:46] knightr: danielk22, nope, impossible...
[01:00:02] knightr: UTF-8 encoding requires > 127
[01:00:29] knightr: for anything that's has accents and anything not in ASCII...
[01:01:16] knightr: (Cyrillic, Greek, etc..)
[01:01:44] danielk22: knightr: . . . s%20%2858%29
[01:02:03] danielk22: It's only complaining about progfind.cpp and globalsettings.cpp
[01:02:46] knightr: weird, I guess the test is nos exhaustive enough...
[01:03:42] knightr: I could send you an hex dump of those files and you would see characters > 127...
[01:03:45] danielk22: Heh, no actually it looks like I disabled the key warning "# 913: ignoring invalid multibyte character sequence" in ./configure
[01:06:46] danielk22: Maybe the #27 ones snuck through because the compiler didn't ignore the whole string in those cases.
[01:06:46] ** MythLogBot **
[01:07:27] knightr: it's probably something like that...
[01:08:05] danielk22: Annoying! I wonder how widespread support for u8"" is these days..
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[01:08:55] knightr: danielk22, icc is an Intel compiler?
[01:09:03] danielk22: yep
[01:09:27] danielk22: I'm running it to get more warnings on the code.
[01:09:29] knightr:
[01:09:41] danielk22: I want to get clang in there too.
[01:10:11] knightr: are we still using the coverity stuff too?
[01:10:20] danielk22: yep
[01:10:48] knightr: has it been automated or it is still manual?
[01:12:01] danielk22: Not sure. It seems to throw a lot more false positives so I've been concentrating on compiler warnings and cppcheck.
[01:12:20] danielk22: It does run fairly regularly though.
[01:13:38] knightr: ah, thanks... I was wondering what had happened with it...
[01:14:42] knightr: did you have a chance to read the post on the Intel forum?
[01:16:42] danielk22: Yeah, not sure what to make of it though. Is the warning a bug because icc is supposed to be gcc compatible?
[01:17:20] danielk22: Or is \u allowed in C++98 ?
[01:17:43] knightr: I'm not sure either... Sounds like they opened a ticket but unfortunately they didn't provide the UR...
[01:20:15] danielk22: — seems like unicode support was added in clang 3.0 as part of C++11 support.
[01:24:56] danielk22: It also looks like u8"日本語" isn't valid even in C++11 :| There was language encouraging compiler vendors to support it in N2295 but it was dropped in N2384.
[01:25:57] knightr: geez, what a mess...
[01:27:15] danielk22: UTF-8 text editing was pretty much standard as of 2011 AFAIK!
[01:28:57] danielk22: Hmm looks like it was closed up in 2007.. . . . 07/n2442.htm
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[01:42:21] knightr: does that mean it's now in force or it's simply some sort of RFC?
[01:42:58] danielk22: This is now part of the C++11 spec.
[01:43:58] danielk22: AFAICT compiler vendors are permitted to allow raw UTF-8 but it's not even recommended that they allow it, much less required.
[01:48:34] knightr: So, it's a nice mess...
[01:50:25] danielk22: Yep. There is at least support for UTF in the type system now, but it seems so much less than it could be.
[01:54:42] knightr: danielk22, I gotta go eat something, it's getting pretty late here and I still haven't eaten... It was nice talking to you.. ttyl
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[04:35:47] skd5aner: lol – "vote to remove live tv" – that'll be the day when MythTV finally jumps the shark and dies
[04:36:12] ** skd5aner rolls eyes in response to such a dumb suggestion **
[04:38:39] skd5aner: I've been using MythTV since 2004... and I leverage Live TV more today than ever before... the overly-pervasive attitude that "Live TV" means "you're doing it wrong" is just ludicrous
[04:39:37] skd5aner: I'm saddened to hear such a suggestion even come from some of the more persuasive and contributing devs :/
[04:40:46] skd5aner: I know it's late, and most people are gone – but I really hope some folks like danielk22 and Beirdo read this in the backlog if nothing else... live tv users aren't second class citizens – we know the purpose of a DVR, but setting up recordings makes no sense for dozens of use cases
[04:41:34] skd5aner: too bad Mark's no longer around as he's the last dev that actual saw the value in live tv and was willing to put some serious effort in to making it better
[04:42:05] Beirdo: I didn't say LiveTV was second class
[04:42:27] ** skd5aner steps off soap box, assuming he's probably stayed long past his welcome **
[04:42:35] Beirdo: I said that it causes plenty of extra code complications, but lots of users use it, so we have no choice but to maintain it
[04:42:47] skd5aner: you also said you'd vote to rip it out, if you could
[04:42:52] Beirdo: I would
[04:43:00] skd5aner: that's pretty dumb, imho
[04:43:04] Beirdo: because it makes the codebase easier to maintain
[04:43:06] skd5aner: coming from a pretty smart guy
[04:43:13] wagnerrp: the implication being he knows it can't be removed
[04:43:18] Beirdo: OMG
[04:43:21] wagnerrp: much as he would like to
[04:43:27] Beirdo: yeah, exactly
[04:43:31] skd5aner: I understand that Beirdo...
[04:43:35] skd5aner: I know you know it needs to stay
[04:43:55] skd5aner: but you don't want it there, along with others, so it stays there... in a minimal support state... with little attention
[04:43:55] Beirdo: it would make this app soooo much easier to keep working, and really remove a lot of complication
[04:44:05] skd5aner: enough to keep it on life support, but not actually make it what it should be
[04:44:09] Beirdo: but... we kinda need it for those who use it
[04:44:22] Beirdo: skd5aner: if you want to step up and maintain it...
[04:44:38] skd5aner: It's like saying "I have 4 kids, and 3 of them are great – but I guess we got to keep the 4'th one around"
[04:44:50] Beirdo: when the main people maintaining an *open source* project aren't interested in a feature, it dies.
[04:45:09] skd5aner: Beirdo: fair enough – I know I get 0 votes here – I'm like the representative from Washington DC in congress
[04:45:09] Beirdo: you want it maintained, well.. :)
[04:45:58] Beirdo: it gets not much attention because of lack of personal interest AND because it's a complicated pain in the butt
[04:46:10] skd5aner: The best I can do is step up and tell you why I think that line of thinking is ill advised and poisonous – it send the wrong message to users, makes the product inferior overall, and solves nothing
[04:46:34] Beirdo: too bad. :)
[04:46:47] Beirdo: we aren't being paid to work on this, or have you forgotten? :)
[04:46:49] skd5aner: What's the Kennedy quote? We don't do things because they are easy, but because they are hard
[04:47:06] Beirdo: if there's lack of interest, there's lack of maintenance.
[04:47:13] wagnerrp: kennedy did thing things because he was hard too
[04:47:19] skd5aner: Beirdo: no, you do it for fun, for a hobby, and to contribute something to the rest of the world – and, get a little recognition perhaps in the process
[04:47:25] Beirdo: including Marilyn...
[04:47:37] skd5aner: but you also do it make a QUALITY product
[04:47:47] skd5aner: I guess I agree – if Live TV is going to suck... rip it out
[04:47:53] skd5aner: but just know, that's like cutting of an arm
[04:48:03] skd5aner: s/of/off
[04:48:04] Beirdo: yes, and unless someone takes the time to maintain it... quality might be better without LiveTV.
[04:48:12] Beirdo: but that would be... nasty
[04:48:49] skd5aner: I think you underestimate the value of live tv, because the majority of devs choose to live without it – which is fine
[04:50:11] skd5aner: but, all I hear on -users and the mailing list, and trac, is a bunch of noise about it... seems pretty volumous to simply say people are "doing it wrong" – perhaps the "it's a dvr" crowd is actually thinking about it wrong – who's to say, but that's my least favorite argument to hear when someone tells a user that
[04:51:47] Beirdo: There are a significant portion of people who do seem to have the mentality that LiveTV is the most important thing ever
[04:52:16] Beirdo: I honestly have zero use for it. The program was designed around recording and later playback
[04:52:29] skd5aner: there are times where I regret my decision to avoid learnign to code so long ago
[04:53:09] Beirdo: if I want to watch live tv... I'd watch live tv. why grind disc and waste CPU to get slightly inferior quality video? I nearly never pause playback
[04:53:46] skd5aner: Beirdo: I am not one of those people (who think it's uber important, the the most critical part) – but if I had to weight it, for my family's person use case, it's 2/3 dvr and 1/3 live tv
[04:54:01] skd5aner: well, when a product only works 2/3's of the time, it's pretty much a bummer to use
[04:54:07] skd5aner: free or not
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[04:54:16] Beirdo: right.
[04:54:34] skd5aner: that's all I'm saying... and jya would agree with me, right JYA?
[04:54:35] Beirdo: whereas the playback has worked > 95% of the time when I've used it
[04:54:37] skd5aner: ;)
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[04:55:12] jya: skd5aner: uh? just logged on… Have no idea what you guys are talking about
[04:55:18] skd5aner: Beirdo: well, I'd say greater than 95% on playback of recordings.... until 0.26, now it's much under that for me unfortunately (check tickets)
[04:55:39] jya: actually was about to investigate why my rip of Bolt and Wall-E suddenly do not play on my mac mini
[04:55:45] skd5aner: jya: yea, I know... I saw the join line and thought I'd rope you in to my argument for no good reason – carry on
[04:55:59] skd5aner: jya: or, feel free to read the backlog and support me ;) heh
[04:56:31] jya: not sure if this is due to the latest nvidia drivers, all my issued have started after I upgraded to 12.04 last month
[04:56:56] wagnerrp: there was a discussion in here a couple hours ago about potential problems with nvidia drivers
[04:57:46] wagnerrp: for values of "couple" approximating 12
[04:57:54] ** jya reading the logs **
[04:58:11] jya: skd5aner: I will certainly stop using mythtv the say LiveTV is removed.
[04:58:15] skd5aner: Beirdo: believe me when I say, that I understand me jumping in here provides little value... and I know contributions are way more valuable than words, but I've been around long enough that it's just sad to hear those kind of comments...
[04:58:17] jya: the day that is
[04:58:32] wagnerrp: "<jpabq> Yeah, current installed version of VDPAU is terrible at handling any kind of damage. I have had to go back to using software decode and just VDPAU for rendering."
[04:58:33] skd5aner: ...about live tv being a necessary evil, and wishing it could be removed, and not understanding the point of it, etc
[04:58:59] jya: liveTV works much better than it ever did, however, I do have to rewind 10s when playback start, otherwise it stutters
[04:59:51] jya: wagnerrp: my Bolt RIP is from a blueray… there's no damage to it whatsoever.. it plays well on my iMac running macos. Doesn't play on my mini with ubuntu 12.04
[04:59:51] skd5aner: jya: yes, live tv /has/ worked better in every revision since 0.21 for me, except for 0.26...
[04:59:59] skd5aner: jya: issues with analog tuners bombing
[04:59:59] Beirdo: jya: sounds like you volunteered yourself to be the champion of LiveTV. heh.
[05:00:41] wagnerrp: yeah, i didn't know the specific context... just remember seeing mention of nvidia drivers and vdpau when skimming the backlog
[05:00:42] skd5aner: jya: several tickets out there for that and other issues related (for example, the setting to allow live tv to move a scheduled recording to another available tuner doesn't work anymore)
[05:00:56] jya: skd5aner: to me 0.26 is the best especially in regards to danielk22 change in choosing a free tuner and not being stuck to a particular multiplex
[05:01:20] skd5aner: jya, wagnerrp: I think someone submitted a ticket on the issue an was confirmed by nvidia QA and moved to engineering (in the backlog) – ch utt confirmed
[05:01:48] jya: wagnerrp: I will downgrade the nvidia drivers to see if it's any better, and even if necessary go down to an earlier 2.6 kernel.
[05:01:52] skd5aner: jya: yea – that was the best... for sure... you can easily find me reporting that as a bug years ago and being told it wasn't a bug
[05:02:01] skd5aner: jya: best live tv fix in 6 years
[05:02:11] skd5aner: jya: credit where credit is due
[05:02:23] skd5aner: I thought that was a 0.25 fix though, no?
[05:02:47] jya: skd5aner: As far as your comment about markk being the only person seeing value in liveTV.. wtf? please point to me a single commit of his related to livetv?
[05:04:14] skd5aner: I don't think he was the only one... but I know from conversations with him he felt live tv was valuable and didn't agree when people said it shouldn't be a primary use of MythTV and people should use the DVR instead
[05:04:46] jya: as for saying LiveTV receives minimal attention, it's probably the single component that has received the most care in the past couple of years. I can't recall a single time where LiveTV received so much work to it
[05:05:19] jya: so great idea to bash the work being done, especially when there's never been as much… so really.. why bother?
[05:05:53] skd5aner: ah ha! – THAT'S why that setting no longer works
[05:06:29] skd5aner: jya: I'm not criticizng the lack of attention it's received... It's more so the attitude towards it
[05:07:06] skd5aner: jya: please, go read everything I've said over the last few years in regards to my praise of the devs for all the work they've put in to it
[05:07:14] jya: rubbish… some people (and dev) don't see the use for it… Some others do. So don't put everyone in the same basket thank you
[05:07:48] jya: Just like I see no use for VAAPI, nor the ability to reschedule
[05:08:01] jya: as being in Oz, re-scheduling just will never work
[05:09:19] jya: I don't see how [3281cdd32] would break rescheduling, as what it ultimately does, is make the LastFreeCard setting redundant as it's properly fixed
[05:10:00] jya: that is, the recorder will be selected and tried at the time you need it...
[05:10:41] skd5aner: jya: not sure, but I can tell you 2 things... 1) from the commit – This setting obsoletes the old
[05:10:42] skd5aner: "Avoid conflicts between Live TV and scheduled shows" setting. – that setting still exists, so it needs to be removed
[05:11:10] jya: according to the commit, that settings was removed
[05:11:17] skd5aner: and 2) many users are getting the prompt that the tuner their currently using to watch live tv is needed ot record
[05:11:24] jya: unless it was added back later.. in which case I don't recall
[05:11:25] skd5aner: jya: well, it's still there for me
[05:11:31] skd5aner: perhaps
[05:11:41] jya: LastFreeCard in globalsettings.cpp is gone
[05:12:01] jya: and I think you misunderstand the meaning of that setting
[05:12:27] skd5aner: jya: #11207
[05:12:27] ** MythLogBot **
[05:13:51] jya: you tell me the "Avoid conflicts between Live TV and scheduled shows"
[05:14:00] skd5aner: jya: I want to go back for a second... because I want to make it clear. I'm not lumping all devs in to one basket – I appreciate many of the contributions of devs like danielk22 who have tried to make it significantely better over the last several release, and have told them so personally on dozens of occasions
[05:14:03] jya: is still there… that may well be the case for the version you are running
[05:14:09] skd5aner: 0.26-fixes
[05:14:11] jya: but it's certainly not in the code I'm looking at now
[05:14:44] jya: anyhow… I want to get Bolt to playback properly…
[05:14:56] skd5aner: jya: yea, no worries... sorry for the distraction
[05:15:11] jya: and as far as LiveTV is concerned, don't want to have to deal with conflicts over tuner ? get a new tuner. cheaper and less frustrating experience
[05:15:17] skd5aner: no...
[05:15:24] skd5aner: jya... that's not what I'm saying
[05:15:28] skd5aner: I have PLENTY of available tuners
[05:15:56] jya: I have 4 tuners, i would prefer to buy another $50 tuner than spending hours of my time looking for the issue to be honest
[05:16:00] skd5aner: I have many, free, available tuners... same source... I could be watching live tv, and it would still prompt me to leverage the tuner I'm using to record than leverage one of the free ones
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[05:16:24] jya: well… maybe you aren't running 0.26 :) because I haven't seen this message in a while
[05:16:43] skd5aner: oh my gosh...
[05:16:52] jya: in the mean time… see you later… hopefully it's just a nvidia issue, otherwise I'll run a git divert to find out what the problem is
[05:16:52] skd5aner: apparently, you think I'm a newbie
[05:17:15] skd5aner: MythTV Version : v0.26.0-53-gb28041a
[05:17:34] jya: skd5aner: did I say that? but you are telling me that the settings Avoid conflicts between Live TV and scheduled shows is still there… when looking at the code: it isn't.
[05:17:36] skd5aner: and others, are reporting it on 0.26 too :)
[05:17:46] jya: so you are obviously not running stock code.
[05:17:50] skd5aner: yes, I am
[05:17:52] skd5aner: pulled from git
[05:17:53] skd5aner: clean...
[05:17:55] jya: maybe someone re-introduced it or something
[05:17:59] skd5aner: perhaps
[05:18:10] skd5aner: jya: maybe you can check your menu and see if it shows up
[05:18:23] jya: I'm on globalsettings.cpp
[05:18:28] jya: it certainly isn't there
[05:18:32] jya: or it's been moved
[05:18:48] skd5aner: Setup | Video | General | first page
[05:19:14] skd5aner: "Allow Live TV to move scheduled shows" very bottom of that page
[05:19:50] skd5aner: yea, very well could have been...
[05:19:52] jya: but that's not "Avoid conflicts between Live TV and scheduled shows" is it ?
[05:20:22] skd5aner: hrmmmmm... were those different settings?
[05:20:31] jya: which . . . 288ca/mythtv certainly didn't touch
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[05:20:46] jya: the commit you linked it touch LastFreeCard setting
[05:21:13] jya: which makes LiveTV use a tuner that isn't going to be used for recording
[05:21:15] skd5aner: I see – perhaps I am confusing the two...
[05:21:32] jya: setting that is now completely redundant following danielk22 work.
[05:21:47] jya: where LiveTV use a free tuner whenever you start liveTV or change channel
[05:22:13] skd5aner: ok – I gotcha... my misunderstanding then of confusing the two settings
[05:22:16] jya: I'm not saying something isn't broken.. may well be
[05:23:18] skd5aner: and, btw... the multirec fix for live tv went in to 0.25 – that's when Live TV was it's absolute best... worked great and I was shouting praise from the mountain tops :D
[05:23:57] skd5aner: may have been the best bug fix (for me personally) since I've been using MythTV
[05:24:36] skd5aner: jya: anyway – go work on your rips :)
[05:24:43] Beirdo: skd5aner: I think what can help is a willing partner in crime user that can work with the dev in question to test fixes, and report, etc.
[05:25:18] skd5aner: Beirdo: totally agree – and I've volunteered multiple times to be that person as much as I can... and still am happy to do so
[05:25:40] skd5aner: Beirdo: I may not be able to replicate all the issues out there, but I've got a handful to start with that seem to be impacting others too
[05:25:59] Beirdo: Cool. Users who can work alongside like that can often really help hammer out issues once the issue is being workied
[05:26:14] skd5aner: Beirdo: I also do understand, that by it's nature alone, the DVR stuff is more important to ensure stability in than Live TV... that's a logical priority
[05:26:25] Beirdo: and... yay... I get to work a high-priority bug for the release...
[05:26:33] Beirdo: all bloody night if needed
[05:28:49] skd5aner: I'll jump out of this channel – I've blabbered far too long – haha – just know, if I can help somehow, I want to do it
[05:29:03] skd5aner: I'm sorry I'm not the dev you're looking for
[05:29:05] skd5aner: :)
[05:29:05] Beirdo: gotcha
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[05:36:05] skd5aner: jpabq: interesting side note, I'm seeing slightly more corruption in my HD-PVR recordings after upgrading to the latest firmware than prior... but I'm not confident that this isn't just a coincidence vs some instability on the cable STB... I'll keep you posted
[05:37:45] skd5aner: jpabq: the corruptions are now appearing in the middle of certain recordings rather than just the begining, so I'm often forced to exit and restart playback multiple times when this occurs – just wanted to let you know the latest
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[07:00:19] jya: well, good news… playback works in 0.25, but not 0.26… so git bisect to the rescue
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[07:30:01] skd5aner: jya: similiar to #11159?
[07:30:20] skd5aner: hrm, MythLogBot not spitting out link –
[07:31:39] jya: very different errors no
[07:32:16] skd5aner: k
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[10:05:01] stuartm: heh, so this nvidia driver situation gets worse, this morning one of my screens has developed a case of chicken pox – 4x4 squares of black pixels confined to the upper left corner
[10:09:29] stuartm: knightr: coverity uploads have not been automated yet, I did the last one manually a couple of days ago
[10:11:14] stuartm: I'll probably use an existing script to do the work (Coverity link to an open source one), then have someone who knows buildbot set it up to run regularly
[10:12:19] stuartm: the way coverity works, doing a full build, we could actually make it a step in one of the existing bots so after they finish building it uploads the results
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[12:21:21] stuartm: erm, the VDPAU slim profile uses a 2x deinterlacer?
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[13:05:13] alexjfisher: Hi. Should the 'Streaming' storage group be defined in mythtv/libs/libmythbase/storagegroup.cpp as a 'special' storage group?
[13:05:56] alexjfisher: ie added to the list that already includes 'DB Backups','Fanart' etc
[13:29:37] danielk22: skd5aner: jya: I was mostly just annoyed at an abusive user who was causing real developers to drop of the dev channel in frustration. I've spent man months on making LiveTV better.
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[14:17:37] dekarl: danielk22: I'm trying to understand the string literal change... According to the following is code point 0x5E74, gets converted to its UTF-8 encoding as its stored in a 8-bit string literal and the parsed as UTF-8 by the QT fucntion. QString::fromUtf8("\u5E74");
[14:18:14] dekarl: QChar(int) takes a unicode code point, too. So no need to fiddle with the numbers as no funky UTF-x encoding is done in the source code :)
[14:28:49] dekarl: skd5aner: I thought the agreed upon attitude towards live tv was "you are not reaping the full benefits of mythtv while you have the full cost" which often gets worded slightly different as "you are doing it wrong!". the latter part being the disputed one ;)
[14:37:06] danielk22: dekarl: That page would have been useful yesterday. It basically says QString::fromUtf8(u8"\u5E74"); can safely be rewritten as QChar(0x5E74);
[14:37:11] dekarl: alexjfisher: it depends, the other builtin groups are not in the list of special storage groups either.
[14:38:22] dekarl: danielk22: I figured that but thought peer review might still be valuable feedback (as I had invested the time to understand the change already)
[14:38:40] danielk22: yep, and it is a useful page too.
[14:41:06] alexjfisher: dekarl: really? . . . agegroup.cpp lines 24–32
[14:41:11] danielk22: The QString::fromUtf8(u8"\u5E74") approach will be useful once we start taking advantage of C++11 features. It's unfortunate though that we still won't be able to just use utf8 encoded string directly and have C++11 compliant code.
[14:41:38] stuartm: heh, I should have been paying more attention last night, I read all that when I implemented the mythui textarea widget, I just assumed that the code in question wasn't involving a QString/QChar conversion
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[14:43:01] alexjfisher: If I can go to schedule a recording, I can chose the storage group. I can select between 'default' and 'streaming'. I was assuming the other groups didn't appear because they were all defined as part of kSpecialGroups.
[14:43:24] dekarl: alexjfisher: 68–72 defines ChannelIcons, Themes, Temp, Streaming, 3rdParty which I don't see in LiveTV, DB Backups, Videos, Trailers, Coverart, Fanart, Screenshots, Banners
[14:43:42] dekarl: the answer might be to just add all from the first set to the second set
[14:44:11] dekarl: the other groups don't appear because the are not defined in the database
[14:44:23] dekarl: did you manually add a streaming storage group via setup?
[14:45:49] dekarl: changing the code to just ignore both sets of storage groups might work, too . . . oup.cpp#n780
[14:54:47] dekarl: I think that builtin storage groups are also special storage groups after looking at the functions that use kSpecialGroup. Special groups get their names translated, are offered in setup to add via list choice, are not shown in the backend status when showing free space for recordings.
[15:01:22] alexjfisher: So should Streaming be a builtin, or a special?
[15:03:40] alexjfisher: In my case at least, the 'Streaming' group was created automatically when I installed mythbuntu. The directory path listed does get used for the live streaming. I'm note sure that /tmp/hls does.
[15:05:17] alexjfisher: or rather /home/mythtv/.mythtv/tmp/hls is empty.
[15:07:11] dekarl: alexjfisher: strange, I don't have it in my Mythbuntu setup.
[15:09:50] alexjfisher: I've only come back to mythtv this year. It was a fresh install of 0.25 on mythbuntu 12.04
[15:11:04] dekarl: Either way, I do agree that "Streaming" (and the other builtin groups) should not be offered as a place to store recordings.
[15:11:57] danielk22: I believe the only storage group you actually need is "Default"
[15:12:06] alexjfisher: I've come across this issue after migrating my system to zfs. Each storage group now has it's own filesystem. The free space code is ignoring most storage groups, but deciding all filesystems in default,livetv and streaming count towards free space.
[15:12:44] alexjfisher: since they all inherit from the same base zfs filesystem, free space is over reported by 3 times.
[15:12:46] stichnot: gigem: just trying out the latest Master with your simplified recording rule types. This is awesome. The simplified Schedule Options section on the mythweb page now has precisely the 5 options I ever use.
[15:13:08] dekarl: ahh, that explains why "Live TV" is removed from the set of special groups in one place. makes sense even.
[15:16:37] dekarl: alexjfisher: found it... /usr/share/mythtv/sql/mythtv_0.25.0.sql contains a database export with "Streaming" that likely gets used to initialize the mythtv database when the package is installed and the database does not yet exist
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[15:43:19] danielk22: stuartm: knightr: dekarl: I'm going to see if I can't find a better way to handle the UTF-8, maybe we just use compiler extensions on gcc,icc&clang to get the desired result instead of trying to be 100% C++ compliant.
[15:44:07] danielk22: It's a minor pain in those couple files I translated, but a larger pain if we handle all the utf-8 issues that pedantically.
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[15:46:10] stuartm: it would be nice not to worry about it
[15:46:57] dekarl: hmm, does using only ascii string plus the translation framework for anything >0x7f make sense?
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[15:50:07] AlexJFisher: dekarl: Sorry. Linux box froze on me. Dunno why, will have to power cycle and see what happened. I've probably missed stuff you said. I think the last thing I got was a comment about about the 'Live TV' group was excluded from something. or was that included from something? :)
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[16:34:04] danielk22: dekarl: That would work but it would also be a pain because these strings would need to be translated in all the translations and I believe some of them are used before any translations are loaded in the initial mythfrontend choose your language screen.
[16:36:57] knightr: danielk22, dekarl yep, on initial installation we prompt for country and language to chose which translation and locale file will be used...
[16:38:00] danielk22: The icpc I have installed doesn't support C++11 strings, but I'm downloading the latest version now to verify it's support.
[16:38:24] knightr: additional date formats could be put in the translation files or, I believe more preferably locale files but the iso--3166 or iso-639 could not because of that...
[16:39:22] knightr: I guess they could be put in XML (for example) files which could be loaded at startup though...
[16:39:30] danielk22: Neither the intel compiler nor clang are officially supported, but I want to at least not make the latest versions of those compilers unhappy. I'm ok if we can't satisfy older versions of those compilers.
[16:40:30] danielk22: Well we also do have a C++97 compliant way to handle this, it is just inelegant.
[16:41:07] danielk22: The C++97 complaint way is just QString("") + QChar(0x????) + QChar(0x????) ... ;
[16:41:40] danielk22: It will result in the same correct code, but will take a long time to compile + just not read as nicely.
[16:43:41] danielk22: The compilation will be slow assuming the compiler executes the code at compile time, if it doesn't this method will be less efficient.
[16:46:09] danielk22: Hmm, configure doesn't know about clang++. I thought jya was already compiling with it...
[16:46:20] danielk22: jya: Do you have a ./configure patch?
[16:46:43] skd5aner: danielk22: fair enough – again, please don't read in to my comments from yesterday as a knock on any specific work that has went in to making Live TV better over the last few releases... quite the opposite. It was the comments that came out after that other guy came in that sat a bit uneasy with me
[16:47:00] skd5aner: danielk22: but, I can see how his attitude could spurn such comments :)
[16:47:51] danielk22: skd5aner: :) LiveTV isn't going anywhere.
[16:49:03] skd5aner: :)
[16:49:59] skd5aner: btw – you were talking about filters the other day, particularly with SD content, and I thought to myself that I hadn't used any filters since switching to vdpau years ago... so I just starting playing with the vdpaudenoise and vdpausharpen filters and my SD content is so much better
[16:50:53] skd5aner: almost makes me forget about the relatively crappy encoding quality of the hold hauppauge pvr-250/500s :)
[16:50:54] danielk22: skd5aner: I think the filters might get more use if there were a decent interface for them. Currently you either need to look at the source or get filter incarnations from googling.
[16:51:30] skd5aner: danielk22: yea, had to refer to the wiki – also, looking at the actual filter page, it was last updated in 2007 and says it's accurate "as of 0.15" – heh
[16:51:57] skd5aner: I assumed, however, that those built-in filters only work if you're using the standard decoder, not vdpau
[16:51:58] danielk22: heh
[16:53:38] danielk22: I dunno. I believe vdpau allows you to process the decoded frames before display.
[16:53:38] skd5aner: alright – suppose I ought to get some stuff done this weekend – have a great one!
[16:53:49] danielk22: Although our implementation might not.
[16:54:07] skd5aner: danielk22: yes, you can choose to use vdpau for presentation only and ffmpeg for decode
[16:54:59] danielk22: Hmm, mythtv does not appear to compile with clang 3.0
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[17:16:21] danielk22: jya: check_cflags -mllvm -stack-alignment=16 <-- in ./configure is what prevents clang from compiling MythTV on Linux. It appears this is already inserted by qmake into QMAKE_CFLAGS and we clang complains that we have it listed twice and exits.
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[17:33:16] tonsofpcs: what is this "SD content" that you speak of?
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[17:43:57] stuartm: skd5aner: that's captured SD, or digital?
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[18:56:35] peper03: Does Myth still support VCD playback? I have some recollection of seeing in in MythVideo at some point in the past but I don't see it any more. I don't need it but if it isn't supported any more, that could potentially make clean playback of DVDs easier to implement.
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[19:20:41] wagnerrp: ugh... udo...
[19:24:16] danielk22: peper03: I think we dropped support at some point. It was only really popular in Asia and we don't have many users there.
[19:26:12] stuartm: peper03: we never actually supported it, we just allowed users to specify an external player to use and spawned that instead
[19:26:22] peper03: danielk22: Ok, that's good (I think – the dropping support). How feasible would it be for the DVD player to just create an MPEG2 decoder for the video stream before playing?
[19:27:29] dekarl: wagnerrp: danielk22: another option would be to add a second stringlist kBuiltinGroups and use that in addition to kSpecialGroup where it makes sense
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[19:28:39] peper03: At the moment, the start of the DVD seems to be read two or three times in order (as far as I can tell) to create the decoders required. This seems to end up with the VM getting a bit confused as the rug gets pulled out from under its feet.
[19:28:43] danielk22: peper03: Possible but not easy. I think you would need to implement a it at the TV class level.
[19:30:05] danielk22: The TV class is nearly 13,000 lines and it would need to be refactored into a base + TV class + DVD class.
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[19:30:29] SmallR2002: so that should take about half an hour
[19:30:57] peper03: At 13,000 lines, it sounds like it needs refactoring anyway :) You're right, though. It doesn't sound easy!
[19:31:34] danielk22: Yeah, it does need refactoring anyway.. but not an easy task ;]
[19:32:30] stuartm: peper03: can we not just reset the vm?
[19:35:48] peper03: We do, sort of. There's the 'StartFromBeginnging' method in DVDRingBuffer that calls dvdnav_first_play (a Myth-specific addition). Theoretically, that should probably do, but it obviously doesn't because playback still isn't always clean (e.g. on one DVD I can't select Play from the root menu). If I comment that stuff out, it plays better but then we there seem to be other issues with other DVDs.
[19:36:59] peper03: I'm not entirely on top of the problem as it's hard to keep all the different logic flows, architecture and problems seen in your head :)
[19:38:26] skd5aner: stuartm: analog SD
[19:39:13] peper03: Starting the VM playing and then resetting the seek pointer several times (causing the VM to reinterpret the data again) at the very least looks pretty ugly on some DVDs as bits of video sometimes get shown at the beginning that shouldn't be.
[19:39:51] stuartm: skd5aner: I should have put two and two together, you've already told me what your setup is more than once :) Plus you actually mentoned the PVR-250
[19:41:19] stuartm: skd5aner: filters can apparently help with analog, I know that theoretically they could also improve the crappy quality SD we get here via DVB-T although I don't know that we've got any filters of that sort ;)
[19:41:25] peper03: This is probably the cause of #11171.
[19:41:25] ** MythLogBot **
[19:42:06] skd5aner: stuartm: heh – yea, no worries. I've got all sorts of tuners/encoders in the mix – HD-PVR, PVR-250/500s, Air2PC/HD5000 ATSC cards, HDHR-dual tuner, HDHR-Prime.... shew....
[19:42:25] stuartm: peper03: I'd say so, the patch attached there is ugly but I wonder if we can learn something useful from it
[19:42:48] skd5aner: actually, the Air2PC cards aren't used anymore, and I just pulled the 250's out this summer and settled for the one, PVR-500 card with dual tuners... and the prime has a cable card, but all of the channels but locals are encrypted :/
[19:43:49] skd5aner: stuartm: I also have been using, for a while now, the vdpauhqscaling feature – I'd assume that helps with digital SD content and upcsaling it
[19:44:30] stuartm: peper03: there are bits of the code I don't really understand myself, I suspect we could get away with a simplified initialisation
[19:46:20] peper03: stuartm: I'm not sure about the patch. At the moment, the ringbuffer jumps to the first playable title and starts playing. Soon afterwards, StartFromBeginning is called. That patch just adds trying to jump to the root/title menu in between.
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[19:48:13] peper03: Ideally, we should be starting from the DVDs firstplay and leave the VM to it. Jumping about here, there and everywhere independently of the VM seems (to me) to be a good way of giving the VM every chance to get confused (and probably our stuff as we react to events from the VM).
[19:50:32] stuartm: I know some of the stuff we're doing in OpenFile() is to workaround copyprotection measures on some discs where there are a bunch of unplayable titles, but yeah, there has to be a better way
[19:51:09] stuartm: anyway, I'm off to eat
[19:51:16] jpharvey: And there was only a very limited understanding of what was going on when i produced that patch, but at the time i looked at how mplayer worked when playing the dvd using dvdnav.
[19:51:53] peper03: Add to the above also the fact (just rechecked) that MythPlayer::OpenFile calls Peek several times to create decoders. Peek causes blocks to be read and then seeks back to the beginning.
[19:53:43] peper03: stuartm: I think if you play from the DVDs firstplay and let it go from there, you should never hit any unplayable titles because the DVDs navigational code should always ensure you avoid them.
[19:54:48] peper03: The unplayable titles should only become an issue if you're trying to rip the DVD. That's a separate problem and more for the ripping software than Myth, as far as I can see.
[19:56:34] peper03: Also, the start of a title might be playable but it might bomb out later. Just because you *can* start playing a title doesn't mean you can finish it.
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[20:49:30] stuartm: peper03: that's how I'd assume it should work, else how would any commercial DVD player handle such copy protection, so really we need to work out how to do that with minimal effort
[20:50:55] stuartm: the stuff in OpenFile as far as I'm concerned is unimportant and can be moved, determining the number of titles/chapters/serial number aren't necessary before starting playback (except for bookmarks but let's ignore than for now)
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[20:52:27] stuartm: determining the decoder/codec, I'd need to remind myself of that code, but we control the ringbuffer for DVDs so if we really needed to, we can just feed peek a dummy ts (we used to do this for dvb radio)
[20:52:47] peper03: stuartm: I think there are several aspects that are inter-related at some level but not at all, which makes it complicated to sort out what exactly needs to be done.
[20:53:01] peper03: As I see it at the moment we have:
[20:53:14] peper03: 1. The need to determine decoders
[20:53:58] peper03: 2. The apparent problem of DVDs which start with a still frame (if I understand it, ffmpeg doesn't have enough data to determine the decoder – although that seems odd to me)
[20:54:13] peper03: 3. Don't know :)
[20:55:29] stuartm: 2 – We feed ffmpeg more data than it needs in the majority of cases because there are some edge/corner situations (mostly broadcast) where it needs more information
[20:55:43] peper03: Determining the decoders seems to cause us to jump about. So does the 'choose a title' code. I don't think they are inter-dependent but I *think* they're happening at more or less the same time.
[20:56:20] peper03: That's half the problem. I'm not really sure what exactly is happening at the moment. Until you know that, you can't know what needs to be cleaned up.
[20:56:35] stuartm: peper03: I don't know if I'm going to be much help on this, but if I'm going to try then I need to spend some time looking at the problem
[20:57:29] stuartm: I would like to get it sorted, DVD playback is pretty important to me and I'd like to see us handle things better
[20:57:48] peper03: Sure. I've spent hours trying to work out all the ins and outs of it. Probably a big part of that is my newness to the code.
[20:58:29] peper03: I'd like to get it sorted too. I don't actually watch that many DVDs but when I do, I don't want to have to cross my fingers that it'll work.
[21:00:19] peper03: I sat down with the kids to watch a DVD this afternoon, which promptly bombed out at the first menu. We ended up watching most of it via VLC, which then bombed out later. Fortunately my development build of Myth would play it but it's hard to explain to two little kids to hang on for a few minutes whilst Daddy tries to fix it.
[21:01:03] peper03: (whilst secretly hoping that Daddy really *can* fix it!)
[21:01:55] stuartm: I've been through this code many times, but I don't really remember much about it months later
[21:04:34] peper03: I think it needs a liberal helping of comments. It's always easy to say that when you first come to a project but I think there are a few too many workarounds for special cases that either aren't commented at all or insufficiently to understand exaclty what the problem was (maybe the person fixing it didn't understand the exact problem either, but found that tweaking 'this bit here' seemed to make the problem go away).
[21:05:22] stuartm: it's come a long way since we first added dvd playback support and most dvds play fine for me, but there are still rare problems – a more common one is that Play returns to the root menu after apparently trying and failing to do something, that can usually be work around by going to the title/chapter menus and playing from there
[21:09:11] peper03: I seem to find more and more DVDs with problems recently. Maybe we've just been going through a phase of watching more stuff on DVD but at the moment it feels like every DVD I put in seems to give me something else to put on my things to look at.
[21:10:46] peper03: Some are just aesthetic things (like the menu overlays appearing too soon). Others make it almost impossible to watch the DVD or to navigate the menus.
[21:12:13] stuartm: some of the more minor aesthetic issues I probably wouldn't notice
[21:13:15] peper03: Yeah, I think aesthetic things can be pushed back down the list a bit. My gut feeling at the moment is that if we can get clean playback from the beginning, quite a number of problems will disappear.
[21:13:54] stuartm: most of the reported problems in the last couple of years have actually been with children's or workout type DVDs, those seem either to be less robustly authored or just to do stuff that the big production companies avoid
[21:15:15] stuartm: or maybe it's only kids and exercise enthusiasts who have time to watch DVDs ...
[21:15:40] peper03: :) Quite possible. I could imagine the market is generally smaller for those and so they get less testing or are given to smaller companies to author, who aren't as aware of what things should be avoided to increase compatibility.
[21:16:13] peper03: You could probably use those DVDs as a benchmark. If Myth can play those, it can play anything :)
[21:46:48] gigem: skd5aner: Regarding #11207, scheduling around live TV appears to work as intended. At least, it did for me except for the normal fragility of live TV. I suspect the original reporter didn't have the setting that controls that behavior enabled. BTW, that setting will be going away soon, perhaps as early as tomorrow.
[21:46:48] ** MythLogBot **
[21:48:42] skd5aner: gigem: thanks, it's impacting me as well...
[21:49:45] skd5aner: gigem: basically, I could be watching LiveTV, and have a single upcoming recording with multiple free tuners, and it would still prompt me to either exit tv or watch the new recording or just not record and continue to watch live tv (or whatever the actual choices are)
[21:52:40] skd5aner: gigem: and I can tell you that particular setting is set in my instance
[21:53:28] skd5aner: gigem: I would assume the best thing to do would be to get rid of the setting all together and just have a default behavior of using a free tuner for recordings, and only prompt if another tuner isn't available at all
[21:56:37] stuartm: I imagine that gets complicated with multiple sources
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[22:07:19] stuartm: jpharvey: sorry btw if it appeared we were ignoring you, thank you for the patch, it definitely helps point us in the right direction even if we feel on balance that it's a band-aid rather than a cure
[22:12:16] jpharvey: stuartm: I understand, my only attachment to the patch is it helped fix the problem i had and i havent seen and bad side effects
[22:13:00] jpharvey: I'm also happy to try to help make things better with dvd's since i have the same problems with never feeling very confident that they will work
[22:13:34] jpharvey: But thats probably just the sort of dvd's the children watch
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[22:22:58] jams: skd5aner, does that prompt work in .26?
[22:23:12] jams: i know it's busted in .25
[22:30:24] skd5aner: jams: I didn't notice in 0.25, but I was moving cross country at the time and switching jobs, so didn;t really pay much attention. I can only confirm the issue exists in 0.26 (still?)
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[22:31:49] skd5aner: jpharvey: +1 – I'm discovering all sorts of little quirks since my wife watches a bunch of dvd's now with my 18 month old daughter :)
[22:32:26] skd5aner: since the stuttering menu fix went in, it's been pretty smooth sailing
[23:17:27] stuartm: moving from Fedora to CentOS is an upgrade now?
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