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Thursday, December 6th, 2012, 00:26 UTC
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[01:22:34] knightr: gigrm, they seem A-OK to me! I'm not expecting to receive any complaints about them...
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[02:10:26] gigem: knightr: Thanks for checking. I didn't want a bunch of translators mad at me for changing already translated phrases.
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[02:29:19] knightr: gigem, np. I see no reason why they would be mad at you. :-) The sentences are easily understandable and there are only a few strings to translate and plenty of time to do it... :-)
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[12:04:42] stuartm: GreyFoxx: was it you who did some experimentation with embedded mysql a few years ago?
[12:05:09] stuartm: from what I'm reading here we'd need to supply our own copy of the QT mysql driver
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[13:31:16] stuartm: can someone in the US, using SD tell me if there is anything in their callsignnetworkmap and networkiconmap tables?
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[13:57:26] jams: stuartm, both tables empty
[13:59:43] stuartm: jams: thought as much, seems to be dead code
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[14:16:54] stichnot: stuartm: same here, both tables empty
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[14:37:06] stuartm: ok, so it seems they were only used if the user manually imported an 'icon map', but since this is the first I've ever heard of icon maps I'm guessing this is little used functionality – importation has been broken for a while, which is why I even noticed this to begin with, coverity indicated it was dead code
[14:37:48] stuartm: I'd guess that the new services icon stuff was the replacement for this stuff
[14:54:11] danielk22: Does git blame give any hints as to who committed the icon maps stuff?
[14:54:53] danielk22: My guess is that it is vestigial, but I've never been a big user of the channel icons.
[15:02:51] stuartm: it's been refactored since in 2009, you split that code out from another file, so there's nothing in git blame to indicate authorship
[15:04:12] stuartm: I could go back to the source from before that period ...
[15:11:11] gigem: stuartm: I have lots of entries in my productions system db and don't recall doing anything special. Heck, I didn't even know those tables existed. There are no entries, however, in my newer development db.
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[15:50:22] tonsofpcs: this reminds me, I need to give SD money
[15:52:55] tonsofpcs: ok, done :)
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[16:25:39] gigem: Does anyone use AutoRecPriority? I think it's next on the chopping block. It's another invention of bjm along the lines of the Watch List to automatically handle things based on the user's viewing habits. In this case, it dynamically adjusts recording priorities based on the average time between when previous programs were recorded and then watched. The sooner the user typically watches something, the
[16:25:42] gigem: higher the priority. If this feature were to ever come back, I think it would be better implemented as a manually invoked action in Mange Recordings / Recording Rules.
[16:30:12] tonsofpcs: gigem: I just turned it on on my system but it's a brand new setup yet so I haven't played with it yet.
[16:31:10] tonsofpcs: that said, I would think that 'more often watched' v 'more often deleted without watching' would be a better measure. I just turned it on because it seemed interesting.
[16:31:56] tonsofpcs: (with my non-myth DVR, I usually manually delete recordings after I watch them or I set them to keep and not get marked for deletion because I want to watch a whole series as a chunk) — being able to record everything, I don't know that record priorities will affect me that much.
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[16:35:32] stuartm: gigem: they could have been entered there years ago
[16:38:11] stichnot: gigem: I assume AutoRecPriority depends on our somewhat unreliable definition of the Watched flag?
[16:38:31] stuartm: gigem: no, I don't use it, it sounds like the behaviour would oddly enough do the opposite of what I want – I have a few short, easy to watch shows that I don't really care about missing but they can be squeezed into my moments of free time as a distraction, the stuff I really care about seeing often sits unwatched, sometimes for weeks, until I can give it my full attention
[16:39:25] stuartm: stichnot: I take issue with 'unreliable' :) I just think you're definition of 'watched' is wrong ;)
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[16:40:14] stichnot: stuartm: :) For starters, I suppose I would need to actually enable the Watched flag
[16:41:18] stuartm: it's 'Watched' as in the recording has been viewed to completion, not a 'Being watched' flag or 'Started watching'
[16:41:45] stichnot: but how does one define "completion"?
[16:41:46] stuartm: unless you often watch all but the the last 5 minutes of a recording, then it works very well
[16:42:04] stichnot: especially with padding, commercials, etc. involved
[16:42:18] stuartm: stichnot: it accounts for padding and commercials
[16:42:23] tonsofpcs: isn't there a setting somewhere to set what 'completion' means?
[16:42:31] stuartm: tonsofpcs: no and there won't be
[16:42:35] tonsofpcs: I remember changing a config option for how to automatically set watched...
[16:42:55] tonsofpcs: that said, if I watch a file over upnpav the whole way through, is it flagged as watched?
[16:44:17] stichnot: stuartm: to be honest, I'm speaking from ancient memory. I should look into it more so I can speak intelligently...
[16:44:21] stuartm: stichnot: there's a sliding scale, basically within 3–15 minutes of the end, excluding padding based on the overall length of the recording, so 15 would be for a film and 3–5 minutes would be a 30 minute show
[16:44:46] stuartm: tonsofpcs: not for upnp
[16:44:58] stuartm: it's only for shows watched through mythfrontend
[16:45:30] tonsofpcs: I think I'm ok with the feature going away.
[16:45:41] tonsofpcs: (or simplified...) it seems convoluted to begin with
[16:45:41] stuartm: it's not going anywhere
[16:45:49] stuartm: the watched flag that is
[16:46:00] tonsofpcs: right, talking about AutoRecPrio
[16:46:07] tonsofpcs: watched flag is good.
[16:46:09] stuartm: ok, just making sure :)
[16:46:24] tonsofpcs: I like watched flag, although I'll probably continue to use 'automatically pop up menu at end of recording'
[16:46:25] gigem: stuartm: Actually, it uses average time to deletion. My mistake. And, yes, I don't use it for the same reasons as you.
[16:47:05] tonsofpcs: being in ATSC land, I wonder if european TV delivery causes different behaviors with viewers there?
[16:47:53] stuartm: I'm in the UK, and I wrote the watch flag feature :)
[16:48:45] stuartm: I don't think I've ever had one single complaint about it, which is remarkable but I take that to mean I got it right
[16:49:08] stuartm: one of my very earliest contributions that was
[16:50:40] stichnot: So last night my wife started watching a recording, and I "secretly" edited out commercials on another frontend at the same time. I expected the new cutlist to take effect immediately on her frontend, but looking through the code, I can't find any instance of ProgramInfoUpdater involvement in playback. Somehow I thought that used to be there. Am I misremembering?
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[16:51:28] stuartm: stichnot: never existed that I'm aware of
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[16:51:50] stuartm: ProgramInfoUpdater is a relatively recent addition
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[16:52:16] stichnot: stuartm: you mean the concept or the specific implementation?
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[16:52:38] stuartm: both
[16:53:13] stuartm: it was Daniel's baby
[16:53:13] stichnot: I thought the PBB would automatically update new and deleted programs for as long as I've been using multiple frontends, which is >4 years
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[16:53:55] danielk22: stichnot: It used to be done by reloading the entire list.
[16:53:57] stichnot: I like it very much and I'm sad that Video Library doesn't use it...
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[16:54:27] stuartm: stichnot: only by triggering the entire list of recordings to be re-fetched, it was a blunt instrument, an event sent out which said to PBB (and only PBB) that it should refresh
[16:54:37] wagnerrp: it probably doesn't use it because the video library was originally designed for external players
[16:54:39] stichnot: danielk22: I see
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[16:54:49] wagnerrp: and you have no idea when an external player exited
[16:55:07] stuartm: stichnot: wagnerrp actually it's more because the video library doesn't use ProgramInfo
[16:55:11] danielk22: The PBB was getting slower and slower so I spent some time profiling and speeding up the slowest bit.
[16:55:48] stichnot: danielk22: do you think it's practical to use ProgramInfoUpdater to communicate cutlist changes?
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[16:56:27] stuartm: a year or two back I spent some time refactoring the videos to use a VideoInfo class which shared a base with ProgramInfo, but Robert had his own plans and so I gave up
[16:57:38] stichnot: the player already has to watch for changes in recording length for an in-progress recording, but this could potentially be done through the existing filesize change event
[16:58:59] danielk22: stichnot: The keyframe map has it's own update mechanism it might make more sense to piggy back on that.
[17:00:57] stichnot: danielk22: ok, I'll check that out
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[17:07:42] dekarl: stuartm, you are talking about seperate iconmaps, not about then icons that come via xmltv grabbers, correct?
[17:07:50] stuartm: dekarl: correct
[17:08:33] dekarl: sounds like a plan, then
[17:08:41] stuartm: this appears to have been a US only mapping of callsigns to icons which involved importing an xml 'iconmap#
[17:09:20] dekarl: I'd say its been superseeded by the icon lookup in setup
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[17:34:56] skd5aner: stuartm, stichnot: fyi,'s default for a "listened" track is 50% in all of the scrobblers I've seen, although they allow the user to choose anywhere between 50%-and 100% I believe
[17:35:33] skd5aner: so I song won't increment the playcount and scrobble to until it passes the 50% mark of the song...
[17:36:01] skd5aner: perhasp the same makes sense for TV, or at least a similiar strategy
[17:36:10] skd5aner: 50% is probably too low
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[17:39:09] stuartm: skd5aner: we use a similar strategy, well a better one IMHO
[17:39:19] skd5aner: gigem: the AutoRecPriority sounds nice on paper, a "smarter" learning scheduler – but I never found it practical in the real world... I always manually increase or decrease shows based on how I feel about them at any given time
[17:39:50] skd5aner: stuartm: sure – just wanted to give you comparison to another major player in the media space that cares about "plays" – albeit a slightly dfferent model
[17:41:12] skd5aner: gigem: I wouldn't be sad to see that feature go away, as a user – but I always was intrigued by other "learning" capbilities such as recommendation – especially distributed recommendations
[17:42:10] stuartm: considering that we will autoexpire watched recordings before unwatched we wouldn't want a value as low as 50% or even 75%, people do stop watching a programme for reasons other than having seen enough of it e.g. they are too tired, the phone rings
[17:42:20] skd5aner: The biggest third party scheduler enhancement that I always thought was cool was the one that was created to go and see if a final score existed for a particular sporting event, and if not (overtime for example), it would extend the recording by 10 minutes and check again
[17:42:59] skd5aner: stuartm: yup
[17:43:24] skd5aner: big different between 50% of a 3.5 minute song, and 50% of an hour long drama :)
[17:43:34] stuartm: right
[17:43:46] skd5aner: man I can not type today... ugh
[17:45:30] stuartm: I'm not really sure that is right about 50% for music, but their reasoning is different than ours, they have to pay by play (at least for tracks listened to on their site), 50% is probably the figure agreed with the royalty sharing companies at which they pay out
[17:46:19] stuartm: I mean with most pop music, once you've heard the first 50% you've heard it all and quite possibly lost the will to live ...
[17:48:04] skd5aner: btw, I wasn't necessarily talking about streaming from but "scrobbling" – which is submitting playcounts to your profile from any player (or plugin) capable of doing so
[17:48:17] skd5aner: that would also be inclusive of's streaming, of course
[17:48:22] stuartm: for music you'd really think it would be 100% or near there, unlike tv there are no commercials or long credit sequences to be ignored/skipped
[17:48:57] skd5aner: stuartm: well, some songs do have long outros that wouldn't be on a radio edit – of course, they can have long intros too
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[17:49:11] stuartm: who really considers that you've listened to a track if you hit 'skip' after half of it?
[17:49:23] wagnerrp: i'm thinking something like scrobbling would want to follow the existing model
[17:49:25] skd5aner: Seems reasonable to me... sorta...
[17:49:38] wagnerrp: just have an application, or list of applications, that you call when playing a song
[17:50:00] wagnerrp: rather than integrate it into mythmusic
[17:50:17] skd5aner: Well, there is a library that has created for linux
[17:50:23] skd5aner: vs a client
[17:50:24] stuartm: generally if I skip halfway through a track it's because I'm not interested and it just took my that long to find the remote
[17:50:56] stuartm: wagnerrp: I'd implement it through system events
[17:51:05] wagnerrp: stuartm: at least on windows/winamp, their client only registers a play once you get so far into the song
[17:51:12] skd5aner: wagnerrp: you could do it 1 of three ways – you can have a service, that can be written to monitor one or more plays, you can have an app that you pass info to that scrobbles on behalf of the app, or you can integrate
[17:51:39] wagnerrp: yeah, i like a system event
[17:51:49] wagnerrp: maybe on "song finished"
[17:52:00] skd5aner: stuartm: yea, but by that point, you basically listened ot the song... haha... btw, itunes requires you to actually go 100% of the way to the end, unless you do the equivalent of "cutlists" on the song and cut the end of it within itunes
[17:52:05] stuartm: wagnerrp: in mythmusic we don't increment the playcount/last play timestamp until at least 75% I think – not too sure on that figure really
[17:52:59] wagnerrp: or maybe trigger an event when the playcount is incremented
[17:55:00] skd5aner: is someone actually working on scrobbling for mythmusic as this point? Paul said he'd consider it a while back
[17:55:19] skd5aner: obviously, not holding out hope for that at this point
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[17:57:11] skd5aner: fyi –
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[19:31:00] stuartm: I wish coverity wasn't so frustrating to use, it's unbelievably slow and the UI sucks
[19:34:31] danielk22: stuartm: Probably web 2.0 problems. It's relatively fast here. As I understand it, web 2.0 is all about adding round trip delays to web apps so things that used to take 2 seconds instead take 2 minutes post upgrade ;->
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[19:44:40] peper03: Ok, that was interesting. Tried to skip forward over the intro of a DVD. Got a black screen, then 10 seconds of 'Waited 100ms for decoder to pause', another 5 of 'Waited 100ms for decoder loop to stop', seems to tried again to stop for 5 seconds before endless 'Waited 10ms for decoder lock'?! Had to kil mythfrontend in the end.
[19:45:58] stuartm: peper03: yeah, the error handling is buggy and prone to getting stuck in loops, or just stuck ...
[19:46:14] stuartm: it doesn't get much attention
[19:46:30] peper03: Maybe yet another thing for my list :)
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[19:49:59] peper03: stuartm: You mentioned the Gladiator DVD menu was still jerky. I *think* I know why. For one thing, the video overlayed over the clouds has been slowed right down with no tweening. Not much we can do about that :)
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[19:51:31] stuartm: peper03: yeah that was interesting, it's smooth if you return to the menu later but not when arriving at the menu for the first time
[19:52:23] peper03: I didn't notice that but I've got a region 1 version. There may be some other differences.
[19:53:06] stuartm: when most people hit playback problem their first thought is to fix the root cause and not to improve things so that errors are handled gracefully, so in your example skipping over still frames might be fixed but someone will again end up stuck in a "Waited for ..." loop for a different reason
[19:54:44] peper03: Yeah, I would look at how to stop it getting stuck first. Then work out why it got stuck in a still frame. It was only when I hit 'ESC' that it got stuck in the loop. Two problems :)
[19:54:51] stuartm: peper03: I've actually owned two different versions of that DVD, bought the second after losing the first (figured I'd left it behind somewhere only for it to turn up again) – so even with the Region 2 there are multiple versions
[19:55:53] stuartm: one was the original theatrical one disc release, the other a 3 disc extended special edition
[19:55:57] peper03: The region 1 version I've borrowed (or been given) has the Dreamworks intro and then goes straight into the menu (via an intro). There's no FBI warning or the like.
[19:56:24] peper03: This one is a 2 disc 'Signature selection'. Whatever that means :)
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[19:57:01] peper03: The bigger problem with playback though is the relationship between AVFormatDecoder and DVDRingBuffer. The video intro plays ok but there's a horrible jump and 'video is x.xxxx frames ahead of audio' when the menu packets are parsed.
[19:57:40] peper03: AVFormatDecoder is reacting to changes in the ring buffer before they should be visible/audible to the viewer.
[19:58:46] peper03: Doesn't help that the ringbuffer gets an 'audio stream changed' event and rescans the audio codec independently of AFD.
[20:00:04] stuartm: special edition has Universal intro, FACT (Federation Against Copyright Theft) patronising video telling you not to buy bootlegs, then 3 still frame warnings (copyright, commentary track disclaimer etc), then the menu
[20:00:31] stuartm: curiously if I let it play out without skipping then the menu doesn't stutter
[20:01:28] peper03: How do you skip? Next chapter? Right arrow?
[20:01:47] stuartm: next chapter
[20:04:04] peper03: Do you always get the full video intro to the menu or does it jump in at a different point depending on how you select it? Sometimes the intro is skipped once you've been in the main title (for example).
[20:05:52] stuartm: with this version at least there's no intro to the menu that I've noticed
[20:07:56] peper03: Ok. Mine has about a 20 second intro. If you go back to the root menu from the film, the intro is skipped.
[20:08:44] peper03: BTW, you were asking about 'BACK' functionality on DVDs. There is 'GoUp' but I'm not sure whether it's something that has to authored.
[20:10:04] stuartm: oh, well if it's there I'd like to investigate using it, even if it only works on some DVDs
[20:11:01] peper03: Look here:
[20:11:27] stuartm: thanks
[20:12:16] stuartm: I used that site last year while implementing something else but forgot to bookmark the link, couldn't find it again when I recently searched :)
[20:13:05] stuartm: that's exactly what I was hoping for, just need to work out how to make use of it :)
[20:13:14] peper03: There's a function in libdvdnav – dvdnav_go_up(). I would think you could check the return code to see whether the 'Go up PGC' had been authored and if not, maybe jump to the root menu.
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[20:14:39] peper03: Actually, I think jumping to the root menu if 'go up' doesn't work would be perfectly fine. I'd forgotten but it has bitten me several times when I've been watching a film and wanted to go back to the DVD menu. I hit back and get dumped back in the MythVideo menu instead and can start the DVD again :(
[20:15:30] peper03: Ah, bugger. Just had a look at the implementation in libdvdnav. It always returns OK.
[20:17:26] peper03: Oh come on! That function is just a wrapper around vm_jump_up, which *does* return whether it worked or not. They've just completely ignored the return value!
[20:18:39] stuartm: peper03: we can fix that, it's just one reason why we include our own copy of dvdnav
[20:19:14] peper03: Yeah, it's an easy fix and at least it's not hard to merge that.
[20:20:35] stuartm: peper03: the BACK action does return to the root menu, it's just not bound by default, it can be bound to the same button as ESCAPE and will only override it in the playback context
[20:21:08] stuartm: peper03: I only learnt that the other day after being dumped back at the main menu once too often :)
[20:22:22] peper03: Ah :) I suppose that makes sense. The problem I have with the main box is that I don't have another button to differentiate between BACK and ESCAPE. Mine's mapped to ESCAPE.
[20:22:57] peper03: I have to be careful if I try to clear the OSD. If I mis-time it, I exit playback :-o
[20:23:01] stuartm: peper03: yeah, just bind it to both actions via the bindings editor
[20:23:32] peper03: Oh, will that work. Never tried/though of that.
[20:23:44] peper03: s/work\./work\?/
[20:24:06] peper03: s/though/thought/
[20:24:07] stuartm: anything in a named context can override the GLOBAL context
[20:24:30] stuartm: everything ESCAPE does in playback is also done by BACK, they are synonymous except in how they work within a DVD
[20:25:37] stuartm: personally I'd remove BACK and just have ESCAPE behave the same way, it's one of those cases where I can't see anyone being upset that they get returned to the DVD menu before exiting playback
[20:26:53] peper03: So exit back to Myth only if you're in a menu (any menu)? Or only if you're in the root menu?
[20:27:12] peper03: Probably just in any menu? Otherwise you might find it hard to get out :)
[20:28:42] stuartm: well we'll see what the behaviour of this go_up stuff is, I suspect that it might return you to an earlier menu e.g. in the chapter menu it would return to the episode menu, and from the episode menu to the root menu
[20:29:27] peper03: That'll depend on how the DVD is authored :)
[20:30:55] stuartm: yeah, I just mean we'll check if goup is available, if not we go to root (unless already at the root), if in root we'll exit entirely
[20:30:59] stuartm: something like that anyway
[20:32:24] peper03: I'm sure something like that could be done without too much trouble and still be fairly clean.
[20:34:42] peper03: Do you have any ideas about how to sort out the connection between AFD and DVDRingBuffer? I have a feeling it's going to be difficult but something needs to be done to get smoother playback across boundaries.
[20:35:25] peper03: The problem with changing stuff in AFD though is that you have to be careful not to break playback of other sources.
[20:40:10] stuartm: peper03: I'd defer to danielk22 on changes to AFD
[20:41:45] peper03: Ok. Hopefully he'll chime in when he's back :)
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[21:27:23] danielk22: peper03: I'm 99% unfamiliar with DVDRingBuffer, but if there you have any patches for AFD I'll review them.
[21:29:37] peper03: danielk22: The problem is the mismatch between the decoding and presentation of the data streams. It probably only occurs with things like DVDs due to things like still frames and menus.
[21:30:44] peper03: AFD queries the ringbuffer for things like 'are we in a menu'. The ringbuffer is on the decoding side and says 'yes' because it's just decoded the menu. AFD is on the presentation side and is, say, nearly a second behind the decoding process.
[21:31:08] peper03: It really needs to know 'am I in a menu at this point in the presentation'.
[21:31:22] peper03: The problem is how to do that :)
[21:31:39] danielk22: why is the AFD making that query?
[21:32:14] danielk22: The AFD is just the decoder it shouldn't care about the presentation.
[21:32:50] danielk22: That should be driven at a higher level like in MythDVDPlayer.
[21:33:08] peper03: Ok, bad description on my side (still trying to get my head round the architecture :) )
[21:34:24] peper03: The ringbuffer has presented the raw data streams to AFD. The decoding of *this* is delayed in relation to the navigation data also coming in via the ringbuffer.
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[21:36:38] peper03: If I'm lucky, the bigger problem may be my understanding of the architecture rather than how to fix the code :)
[21:40:14] peper03: I'm trying to match up what I see in the logs as they zip past to what I can see and hear. It certainly seems like we often have problems when playback moves across boundaries (like video->still frame or in and out of menus).
[21:55:07] jpharvey: xgoto-li
[21:55:24] jpharvey: Sorry typed in wrong window
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[22:59:20] peper03: Ok, the reason for the horrible glitch when transitioning from intro to menu on the Gladiator DVD is because it's region 1 and I'm set up for PAL. ScanStreams gets called and is told to ignore video streams, which causes it to set fps to 25 and, hey presto!. we're suddenly 4.97 frames behind where we should be.
[23:05:24] peper03: Is there any way round that? It'll only happen when playing a DVD for a different TV standard, but it's ugly and the frame rate gets corrected almost immediately but by then the glitch has already been seen.
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[23:11:39] peper03: Maybe using m_fps if it's not 0?
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