| Friday, June 8th, 2012, 00:03 UTC | ||
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| [00:06:38] | tgm4883: | sphery, danielk22 I got NULL for that |
| [00:07:00] | tgm4883: | although, should I be leaving it like that, or do I need to alter it to PST? |
| [00:07:51] | danielk22: | tgm4883: no need to alter it, any distro would load all the tables. |
| [00:08:17] | tgm4883: | ok, it's NULL then |
| [00:09:13] | danielk22: | tgm4883: To confirm, this is with ubuntu? |
| [00:09:21] | tgm4883: | yes |
| [00:09:26] | danielk22: | ok, thanks. |
| [00:09:28] | tgm4883: | well, Mythbuntu, but same thing |
| [00:10:04] | danielk22: | Well, I'd think mythbuntu would be more likely to load these tables than straight ubuntu... |
| [00:11:02] | tgm4883: | do we need to load them? |
| [00:11:07] | tgm4883: | what does it gain us? |
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| [00:24:26] | gigem: | sphery: I'm not sure I follow you wrt title/subtitle, but yes, the intent is that the rule will without changes whether you're in daylight time or not or even if you change time zones. |
| [00:26:03] | gigem: | danielk22: I don't think using Qt is an option as that would require hardcoding various substitutions into the scheduler and the whole point of custom rules and the later filters is to not require changing scheduler code when some new use if use case comes up. |
| [00:28:54] | gigem: | With regard to distros loading the time zone info into MySQL, Debian doesn't do it, so I doubt Ubuntu does it either. I'm surprised they don't do it as it's really rather trivial. In addition, dpkg's triggers capability makes it very easy for automatically update mysql whenever a new tzdata package is installed. |
| [00:29:16] | wagnerrp: | freebsd does not |
| [00:29:25] | wagnerrp: | or at least did not the last time i installed the server |
| [00:29:40] | wagnerrp: | maybe a year ago |
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| [01:18:44] | jpabq: | taylorr, I have had no problem recording (or watching live) 480i channels. LiveTV and recordings are both working better than ever for me with all resolutions from the HD-PVR (480i, 720p, 1080i). With LiveTV I still get an occasional error that dumps me back to the menu, but that is now the exception instead of the rule. |
| [01:23:06] | sphery: | gigem: ah, yeah, forgot that the value will change also with DST changes, so I agree that your way is best. We'll just make it known that loading the zone info into MySQL is required for proper functioning of MythTV. |
| [01:24:17] | sphery: | tgm4883: so, basically, it's as I describe http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/519725#519725 ... It's actually as simple as: mysql_tzinfo_to_sql /usr/share/zoneinfo | mysql -uroot -p mysql |
| [01:25:03] | sphery: | I'll make sure that requirement goes on the release notes for 0.26 |
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| [01:33:07] | taylorr: | jpabq: ok, thanks for the update... maybe I should go into setup and recreate all my recorders again... I think I remember some people on the mailing lists mentioning that it helped |
| [01:33:42] | superm1: | gigem: is there a negative side effect to doing it? it could be as simple as there wasn't any applications out there clamouring for it |
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| [01:35:49] | danielk22: | gigem: I didn't mean for the scheduling. I meant for converting the time of the old recordings. |
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| [01:37:59] | danielk22: | superm1: I don't know of any negative side effects. As for benefits, with 0.25 and earlier having the timezone info loaded means that mythweb will work properly. With 0.26 and later it will mean that the custom rules that depend on recording something in say every weekday or only during "prime-time" will work properly. |
| [01:39:47] | gigem: | superm1: I can't think of any negative side-effects either. |
| [01:40:52] | gigem: | danielk22: Ah. Even if Qt is quicker than mysql, it's a one-time thing and is simpler to just do it all in the database. |
| [01:41:46] | danielk22: | gigem: I'm not thinking about quickness, just that it will work even if timezone data isn't loaded in the DB. |
| [01:42:37] | danielk22: | Plus, it might be quite complex to deal with collisions in SQL. |
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| [01:48:29] | gigem: | But if timezone support is available, all of the conversion will be correct. I didn't speak up yesterday about the "some historical times will be off by an hour" issue because others already had, but it bothers me even if it is a small nit. I'm of the mind if it's not too much trouble to do correctly, then it should be done. The change I'm working on will use convert_tz if it works and use your utc_offset |
| [01:48:31] | gigem: | change it convert_tz doesn't work. I don't see why there should be any collisions, but fwiw, I'm going to keep your "order by" part just in case. |
| [01:49:10] | gigem: | Anyway, I'm out of time for tonight, so not much more will get done before this weekend. |
| [01:51:54] | gigem: | Oh, and not surprisingly manual recordings do need some work. Fortunately, I think many of the problems will be fixed when stuartm's specail time functions are fixed/updated. For example, I had to choose "Tomorrow" to schedule a recording for 22:00 tonight. |
| [01:54:49] | gigem: | Unfortunately, there is a much bigger problem that will affect all kTimeslot and kWeekslot rules be they manual or not. That is they will all be off by an hour whenever DST is entered or left! Are we really sure changing to UTC is a good thing? It seems like we're trading one minor, albeit annoying, problem for several tougher ones. |
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| [02:07:42] | superm1: | + |
| [02:30:35] | sphery: | gigem: of course, going to UTC is a good idea--all of the users have told us that *all* sane applications use UTC and MythTV designers had no clue |
| [02:30:57] | sphery: | I can quote list posts berating us for our use of local time, if you like |
| [02:38:09] | sphery: | at least our users in Iceland won't notice a difference (they're at UTC+0 with no DST :) |
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| [03:50:18] | gigem: | sphery: Users always know best! :) I've been thinking about the kTimeslot/kWeekslot problem and I can't think of any simple way to handle it other than to change the BUQ in Scheduler::UpdateMatches() to convert the times and dates back to local time. That's ugly, ugly, ugly and could have a very negative affect on scheduler performance. Also, sine those are the same checks used for kSingle/kOverride/kDont |
| [03:50:20] | gigem: | rules, it might very well re-break the bugs that going to UTC is supposed to fix. :( |
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| [03:53:41] | gigem: | danielk22: I hope you check the IRC logs to see what you've missed. Anyway, do you have a reference for why you might think there would be collisions when changing the dates/times? Perhaps, I'm too naive, but I would expect mysql, and SQL in general, to be smart enough to only update a row once in a normal, UPDATE query. |
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| [04:10:12] | sphery: | gigem: Yeah, I started thinking about the issues a bit after you convinced me we need the conversion at scheduler runtime and there don't seem to be any pretty solutions. Since we're losing our "easy" day boundaries, it seems like we might need to convert back to localtime, like you mentioned, or switch to using datetime ranges with BETWEEN or whatever--which would probably get quite complex. No idea how either will affect performance, though. |
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| [09:16:18] | stuartm: | gigem: Daniel renamed/extended those time functions, it's where we do the actual conversion from GMT to localtime, so I'm puzzled that you're seeing incorrect values |
| [09:17:10] | stuartm: | I just used manual schedule to set a recording for 'Today' at '22:00' and it appears to be working fine |
| [09:18:00] | stuartm: | then again it seems there are some subtle bugs arising so ... |
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| [10:41:37] | stuartm: | sphery: I'd worry that making the timezone info a requirement to start mythbackend would be yet another hurdle new users have to jump in a long line of them |
| [10:42:03] | stuartm: | it's something we can easily avoid once we've embedded the db, but that's just not going to happen any time soon |
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| [11:20:07] | sphery: | stuartm: yeah, probably isn't that important, either... I guess Nigel wanted the stop because he thought the upgrade wouldn't do the right thing without the zone data--which would have made sense if that were the case. |
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| [11:30:38] | superm1: | gigem: i checked with the mysql maintainer in ubuntu, and they're open to the idea of it working via dpkg triggers |
| [11:30:49] | superm1: | probably want a patch however |
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| [14:11:20] | gigem: | stuartm: You might not see any problems with manual recordings because you're already at or near UTC. I'm 5 hours behind UTC and the problem shows up when I try to create a recording for late evening local time which is very early morning in UTC. The problem could very well be in the manual recording creating screen (not starting with the correct times) instead of in the time conversion/display functions. |
| [14:11:22] | gigem: | I haven't looked at the code yet, because there are bigger problems to fix first. |
| [14:14:12] | gigem: | sphery, stuartm: Unless I have another epiphany, working time zone support is going to be needed to fix kTimeslot and kWeekslot rules. It's also going to be needed to fix another issue I thought of with kFindDaily and kFindWeekly rules. |
| [14:15:57] | gigem: | Thanks for checking. I'm really surprised it isn't the default. I guess application developers have just gotten used to working around the fact that it's not usually there. |
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| [14:20:15] | superm1: | i'll file a bug for us to try to keep track of to write said patch to do dpkg-triggers and see where he's willing to push it, depending on where it's pushed might need to add something directly to mythtv deb packaging i'm guessing too |
| [14:24:33] | gigem: | Not that it helps us any, but I just checked postgresql and time zone support appears to work out of the box with it. |
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| [14:27:00] | jams: | yes it does |
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| [16:25:21] | gigem: | sphery, danielk22: Something like http://pastebin.com/bzJhf0Fc is needed to fix kTimeslot and kWeekslot rules. Unfortunately, I can't test it right now because my db server crashed with a disk problem and won't come back up. I'll have to go home for lunch to see what the problem is. |
| [16:25:32] | gigem: | This change could be a little more efficient if record.startdate/time were kept in local time instead of UTC, but that would just be confusing and error prone. On the bright side, it would now make sense to combine record.start/enddate/time into just start/endtime. Besides obviously needing time zone support because of convert_tz(), this change would also require that the scehema update also needs to use |
| [16:25:34] | gigem: | convert_tz(). If that isn't done and the update is done in DST, rules created in ST would break. Likewise, if the update is done in ST, rules created in DST would break. |
| [16:25:39] | gigem: | A similar change needs to be done for kFindDaily and kFindWeekly rules to make sure the findtime/day is correct when DST changes. That also means undoing/fixing the schema update I committed yesterday so that findtime/day are kept in local time or combine them into just findtime so they could be kept in UTC. |
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| [19:25:38] | gigem: | Here's an updated patch which fixes kFindDaily and kFindWeekly rules. It doesn't include the not-yet-done parts of undoing the schema update and saving findday/time in local time. I'm mainly throwing these patches out to show the ugliness factor with the hope it will inspire someone else think of a more elegant solution. If anyone is crazy enough, though, to already be running master in production, I would |
| [19:25:40] | gigem: | like to hear what kind of run-time effect this patch has. |
| [19:25:45] | gigem: | BTW, in tracking down what I thought was a bug in this kFindDaily/Weekly handling, I came across some unexpected news. It seems TMS is now assigning non-generic programids for nearly all of the programs that were the original inspiration for kFindDaily/Weekly. If this had been the case several years ago, kFindDail/Weekly probably wouldn't exist today. I wonder how many people use them and how big the |
| [19:25:46] | gigem: | uproard would be if we proposed removing them. |
| [19:31:52] | stuartm: | well not everyone is in the US, so there may still be people who feel they genuinely need those schedule types |
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| [19:33:13] | stuartm: | personally I stopped using them when it became clear that there was no guarantee they would record the episode you wanted, if they ran repeats the same week as the new episode then 'Find Weekly' was largely useless – same goes for 'Find Daily' |
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| [19:34:53] | danielk22: | gigem: I'm running the UTC branch in production, but I don't have any finddaily/findweekly schedules. I'll add some and then time before and after.. |
| [19:35:12] | stuartm: | and 'Time slot' recordings are sure to cause heartache if a programme airs later (or potentially earlier) because of a sports or other live event on that day (EIT allowing updates right up to the minutes before the recording starting mean that even a 5 minute postponement mean the recording never happens) |
| [19:35:35] | danielk22: | gigem: Is the main problem knowing if two programs are in the same day locally and if that is a weekday or weekend? |
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| [19:36:14] | gigem: | danielk22: It's the timeslot and weekslot rules — i.e knowing they are on the same weekday and/or time locally. |
| [19:37:46] | gigem: | stuartm: We all know the evils of timeslot and weekslot rules. It's some users who insist on using them. We do still need them for recurring manual recording, though. |
| [19:40:52] | gigem: | stuartm: I don't understand your point about find daily/weekly being useless. What use case were you trying to use them for? The use case that inspired them was programs with generic programids, but I knew new daily episodes always began at a specific time and new weekly episodes always began on a specific day/time. |
| [19:41:43] | danielk22: | gigem: If it comes down to it we could have a table with localprogstart, but maybe we can think of something more elegant. |
| [19:43:52] | gigem: | danielk22: I suggested keeping record.start/end/date/time in local time for that reason. I suspect it would be error prone, but would be willing to try it. The bigger impact is the scheduler via the db will always have to convert program.starttime back to local time. Yes, I'm hoping for a more elgant solution too. |
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| [19:46:36] | sphery: | gigem: specifically, The Daily Show -> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/153872#153872 |
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| [19:49:19] | sphery: | and, yeah it seems a /huge/ number of users actually think they want timeslot/weekslot rules--I suppose because they're looking at it from more of a VCR-type perspective and forgetting that they have (or failing to trust) listings |
| [19:51:59] | gigem: | And don't forget the ones who want timeslot/weekslot with fuzz! |
| [19:53:10] | sphery: | hehe, yeah |
| [19:54:13] | sphery: | where each one has their own idea of how much fuzz is appropriate, but they still feel custom rules are overkill... (It's easy, just use /my/ value for the one-and-only amount of fuzz!) |
| [19:54:14] | jams: | sphery- i can't tell you the number of times the guide changed at the last minute and a show was missed |
| [19:54:38] | sphery: | with my any time rules, that has /never/ been a problem for me :) |
| [19:54:59] | jams: | for anything real important my wife like a special , my wife now does timeslot or manual |
| [19:55:06] | gigem: | sphery: Re. The Daily Show, not a watcher, so I don't care! :) Anyway, from a quick glance at the program listings, it looks like the main problem probably no longer exists there either. The description might not be accurate, but it appears TMS has gotten smart enough to regular assing unique programids in most cases even if they don't have subtitle/descriptions. |
| [19:56:25] | danielk22: | I watch the Daily Show and it's pretty good now, even if they don't get the guest in the description they still get the time right, even when it starts a minute late and ends 2 minutes late. |
| [19:57:34] | sphery: | that's good news about the listings... with my (very simple) rules, I hadn't noticed the change, but I'm glad you did |
| [20:05:22] | gigem: | danielk22: In case I wasn't clear about testing the patch, the main point is to gauge the impact on scheduler run-times. Because time/weekslot rules are defined for local time, the record and program times need to be converted back to local time. Since those same checks are used for single and override rules, everyone will be impacted at least some. The scheduler changes I made earlier for 0.26 might make |
| [20:05:23] | gigem: | the impact negligible, but I'm still concerned about it. |
| [20:05:57] | danielk22: | gigem: ah, ok so my results will be valid even without adding extra rules... |
| [20:06:06] | gigem: | Yes. |
| [20:08:55] | danielk22: | gigem: where is the update patch? |
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| [20:23:28] | gigem: | danielk22: It looks like I forgot to post the url earllier. It's at http://pastebin.com/2k5EswM3 . Because the times in record are converted back to local time, it might very well break on any rules your created during standard time and haven't changed. That's why I think the schema might have to be reworked with convert_tz() anyway. Anyone who updates while things are still being shaken out might very |
| [20:23:30] | gigem: | well have to fix some things manually. |
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| [21:05:55] | stuartm: | gigem: I meant the 'find one showing every day/ every week' |
| [21:08:13] | stuartm: | the timeslot versions are useless because it doesn't account for programmes which get moved forward/back an hour to accommodate special event coverage, or even shifted to a second channel for one day e.g. BBC One > BBC Two because of Football/Olympic/Jubilee or extended news coverage of a significant world event |
| [21:11:03] | stuartm: | they don't even have to move by much for a timeslot recording to fail, since it's matching an exact start time and isn't flexible enough to recognise that a programme with the correct title starting 15 minutes later is the same episode we wanted to record |
| [21:12:34] | stuartm: | with EIT especially starttimes are fluid, EIT can pick up on last minute schedule changes e.g. a starttime being moved back 10 minutes |
| [21:14:28] | stuartm: | perhaps 'useless' is overstating it, 'time slot' can just result in missed recordings because it's so rigid and therefore it's always better to use 'Record all' then just delete or 'never record' any repeats/generics it might happen to pick up |
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| [21:30:53] | gigem: | stuartm: I agree with you about timeslot and weekslot rules. Your 'largely useless' comment was about find daily and find weekly rules and didn't make sense in that context. Perhaps you mistyped. |
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| [21:48:27] | stuartm: | gigem: not exactly, they are all useless (to me, in the UK) for different reasons – e.g. "Find One per Week" is of limited usefulness when there are repeats being shown of any given programme, you generally want the episode that is 'new this week' but it's guaranteed to occasionally record the repeat of last weeks episode or one from three years ago showing on another network |
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| [21:50:18] | stuartm: | or they decide to show two new episodes back to back for a series finale or similar, only one gets recorded |
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| [21:55:08] | stuartm: | it very much depends on what you're wanting to record I suppose, Find One Daily probably suits the case where you want to record a news broadcast, it doesn't really matter which one (morning/lunch/evening) and there won't be repeats to accidentally record instead, plus if you miss the news on one day then it's no big deal |
| [21:57:23] | stuartm: | when you've got plenty of space available it's always better to record every showing if it comes to that and sort them out afterwards than to periodically have it miss the episode you really wanted |
| [21:57:25] | gigem: | That's pretty close to the intended use case. bjm invented the other one which is essentially to rate limit recordings to one a day or one a week. I never used that. |
| [21:58:00] | gigem: | "That's pretty close" refers to your news example. |
| [21:59:42] | gigem: | Anyway, now that my shows no longer need it, I'll probably change my rules. I still might post something on the -users list about removing find daily/weekly to see what reaction it gets. |
| [22:01:24] | stuartm: | right, that makes sense – personally I tend to get most of my news online these days, I can pick and chose the items which seem to be of interest, written articles always tend to include more detail, videos can be re-watched if necessary and you don't have to sit through the mindless repetition and banter/interviews/dispatches that seemingly defines the modern 24 hour rolling news channels |
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| [22:21:42] | xris: | kormoc just sent this to me. anyone think we should advertise? http://openhatch.org/ |
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| [22:44:20] | xris: | anyone else seeing compile errors in audio/audiopulsehandler.cpp with gcc 4.7? not sure if it's a code issue or another oddity to the rpm packaging script (or fedora 17) |
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| [22:48:03] | Beirdo: | we haven't really tested compiling with 4.7 to my knowledge |
| [22:48:15] | Beirdo: | hmm, no danielk today |
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| [22:56:17] | gigem: | Beirdo: He was here earlier. |
| [22:56:24] | Beirdo: | hmm, K. |
| [22:56:35] | Beirdo: | the d3d9 changes don't compile for Windows |
| [22:56:45] | Beirdo: | and they are for Windows only |
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| [22:56:59] | Beirdo: | he made the destructor private, and it's called from another class |
| [22:58:04] | Beirdo: | so I'm not sure if he's mid-changes, or if he's thinking he's done, and it's borked, or what the case is... don't wanna bother trying to fix it if he's already doing so :) |
| [23:00:00] | Beirdo: | although I think I know how to fix it... be better not to duplicate work and all. |
| [23:01:19] | tris (tris!tristan@camel.ethereal.net) has joined #mythtv | |
| [23:02:51] | Beirdo: | well, I'm gonna put in my change, he can back it out/modify it if he wants, I need the Windows stuff compiling before I merge |
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| [23:36:42] | superm1: | xris: same failure on ubuntu quantal i believe: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/107115933/buil . . . BUILD.txt.gz |
| [23:37:12] | superm1: | last successful build with 4.7 on quantal was 4 days ago |
| [23:37:16] | xris: | superm1: yup, same one |
| [23:38:16] | xris: | looks like it was 4f028f388c38c1677 (danielk22) |
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