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Saturday, March 10th, 2012, 00:00 UTC
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[00:01:42] xavierh_: With the MythUI version you can not edit like that, it basically a list of settings (label + value). when you want to edit it you press OK, It will bring you a dialog to edit it. Depends of the type of setting it is bringing either an input text popup, a list of option ...
[00:02:24] xavierh_: So you can actually press INFO before you edit, it would not interfere
[00:03:01] xavierh_: stichnot: ^^^
[00:03:21] jams: instead of info why not F1 like the watch recordings screen
[00:03:59] xavierh_: jams: because I did not configure my remote for this ? :)
[00:04:23] jams: i could see that
[00:04:45] jams: just saying F1 is already setup for help..might as well be consistent
[00:05:01] stichnot: F1 = HELP
[00:05:05] xavierh_: jams: seriously I could bind it to F1, my plan was to use INFO for a contextual menu, with access to help
[00:05:18] stichnot: so HELP, INFO are both good keys to respond to
[00:05:48] xavierh_: If the contextual menu is only filled with Help, it could bring the help directly
[00:06:13] jams: xavierh- that works
[00:07:18] xavierh_: What I had in mind with the INFO key have a menu with, Load/Save individual setting, reset to default and help
[00:07:20] stuartm: jams: I find it really hard to see how a setting which increases a timeout like that could make things worse and not better
[00:07:45] stuartm: jams: most people have an info button on their remote, they don't have one called 'Help'
[00:08:12] stuartm: and in that context I can't see how 'INFO' would be used otherwise
[00:08:51] xavierh_: stuartm: just read above :) [00:07]
[00:10:09] jams: stuartm, thats what i thought until i did some testing around that commit. Could just be bad luck while testing, either way I don't think that commit is the real source of the problem.
[00:10:10] stuartm: xavierh_: you don't need 'grouptitle' with depends behaviour, so that could be left out of the code changes, and you'd need to call the title textarea something like 'pagetitle' instead otherwise it will clash with the recording/video/music 'title' textareas
[00:11:29] xavierh_: stuartm: don't really know how depends work, could you hide completely a group if a textarea is not filled ?
[00:11:47] xavierh_: and title was just for the example
[00:12:23] xavierh_: The point of having a setTitle method is to force a normalization
[00:13:10] xavierh_: or setPageTitle :)
[00:13:16] stuartm: jams: unless the first attempt to change times out and a second retry succeeds, a longer timeout might mess with the timing causing the 'retry' which worked before to start failing – but if that's the case it's not the timeout change which is at fault but whatever causes the initial failure (this is all just pure conjecture based on zero knowledge of what actually occurs in that code)
[00:13:33] stuartm: xavierh_: yes, just depends="!title" in your example
[00:13:43] xavierh_: hmm nice
[00:13:53] stuartm: i.e. <group depends="title">
[00:14:14] stuartm: !title would be the inverse, only show that group if title is empty
[00:14:35] xavierh_: pretty neat
[00:16:18] stuartm: xavierh_: I can see how it would be helpful to 'normalise' page titles, but personally I prefer to chose those myself, they vary in almost every theme I create as I experiment with possibly better page descriptions or align the descriptions to match an aspect of the theme, or a custom menu
[00:16:41] xavierh_: stuartm: How does the confirmation behave when the text overflow ?
[00:17:36] stuartm: xavierh_: depends on the theme, but usually it just gets cut off, I'm not really inclined to 'fix' that, it's not really fixable because the area available is decided by the theme and not the code
[00:18:10] stuartm: xavierh_: I think the current system forces concise text, which is IMHO important in a good UI
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[00:19:57] xavierh_: stuartm: It is not a question of not choosing uour own page title, it is a matter of allowing easy standardization inside the theme itself. Maybe it could be done with window inheritance ?
[00:20:33] stuartm: xavierh_: you misunderstood me, I understand the idea, I'm saying it's a good idea but that I wouldn't as a themer take advantage of it
[00:21:00] stuartm: either that or I've misunderstood what the patch attempts to do
[00:21:14] jams: stuartm, agreed. Obviously I wasn't saying it's purely the longer timeout causing the problem. Just that it had an affect on it.
[00:22:56] xavierh_: stuartm: The patch attempt to force the dev to use a standard name for the title so if the themer want to easily standardize the title area, he can create a group and reuse it in every window.
[00:23:49] xavierh_: stuartm: Also the group area can be left out of the Qt side
[00:24:10] stuartm: xavierh_: right, which is what I understood it to be doing – that's a good thing if the themer wants it
[00:25:36] xavierh_: stuartm: Looking at Terra, I had to fix all the setting page to display the same top with a different page title, some were called pagetitle, some title, some heading ...
[00:29:40] xavierh_: stuartm: Also I was thinking of implementing the inheritance for window
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[00:32:10] stuartm: sphery: strictly it might not be a bad idea to delete old settings to prevent future conflicts, of course we'd need a smarter way of doing it than compiling a big long list of removed settings which would be difficult to do – maybe a framework that looks at what settings are currently defined and removes everything else, or a new timestamp on the settings table which tracks the last time a setting was accessed (not foolproof but reasonably safe)
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[00:33:34] stuartm: xavierh_: window inheritence isn't permitted for good reason, it's far more complicated than widget inheritence and it's hard to see how it would work in practice – few screens share enough widgets for it to work
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[00:34:33] stuartm: the approach of using <groups> and includes is better, more flexible and less likely to break horribly
[00:34:42] xavierh_: Noted
[00:35:17] stuartm: sphery: s/strictly//
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[00:40:34] xavierh_: I am looking at the doxygen doc to find the best suitable dialog for an help text. Would it not make more send if the MythUI did not show all the inheritance outside MythUI ?
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[00:42:19] xavierh_: In an other word, where is the config file for doxygen, and would this change interest anyone ?
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[00:44:08] stuartm: xavierh_: from the pov of tracking down where code is used to apply changes/fixes seeing the usage of classes is invaluable
[00:45:03] stuartm: it also helps to have a list of examples to reference
[00:45:35] sphery: stuartm: Yeah, leaving values can only result in 2 problems: a) users change the value by editing DB directly and don't see changes and think there's a bug (which I don't care about, since that's not a supported mechanism of editing settings values) and b) we have a future conflict. TTBOMK, we've never had a conflict in the past, but it is possible. Other than that, though, there's no real reason to worry about removing them--they really ...
[00:45:41] sphery: ... won't change size on disk or anything (as creating all settings for a new frontend/backend machine results in an increase of 8kB of data and 20kB of index, so deleting even 10 or 20 of the 150+ settings will have negligible impact).
[00:46:08] xavierh_: stuartm: sure
[00:46:28] stuartm: the chances of conflicts only increases with time, but it's not an immediate problem
[00:46:47] sphery: at this point, I'm not too worried about future conflicts, but I do plan to add some functionality for better handling settings (like resetting all settings for a host to defaults--similar to how we can now do that for key bindings--which will clean up old settings values, too)
[00:48:18] sphery: In theory, though, assuming well-named settings values and good code that actually does make the setting unnecessary (i.e. meaning we don't just add it back in), we won't have future conflicts... Not that real life follows theory, nor that those assumptions are necessarily valid.
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[00:49:56] xavierh_: reset to default would be nice
[00:49:59] stuartm: sphery: there's a mechanism to reset settings to the locale defaults, intended to allow existing users to benefit from a new locale config, unused at the moment and probably incomplete but probably something you'd need to include with your 'reset settings' stuff
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[00:50:41] sphery: yeah, will have to keep that in mind (or if I miss that on my change, please let me know so I can fix it)
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[00:52:55] sphery: stuartm: also, fwiw, I was thinking about adding a new locale-defaults-like "packaging defaults" mechanism--that would allow packagers to define distro-/package-specific defaults. My plan is that the locale-based defaults would take precedence. Does that seem reasonable? Would allow packagers to simplify some of their post-install stuff.
[00:53:01] stuartm: hmm, the guys at TVDB aren't too bright, in response to a change I made in their wiki clarifying some advice about artwork they've clarified their policies even further making it verboten to resize images in any direction in order to create banners/fanart/etc
[00:53:09] sphery: (i.e. where Ubuntu sets Mythbuntu as the default theme and such)
[00:53:47] stuartm: I'm tempted to upload fanart showing just the navels of the shows cast because I'm not allowed to scale the original photograph down to size
[00:53:57] sphery: obviously post 0.25 change for the packager defaults
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[00:55:45] stuartm: sphery: I can't really say whether it makes sense since I don't really know what settings packagers are currently manipulating and what their reasons for doing so might be
[00:55:45] jams: sphery- please talk to me at a later date for that, as my mythutils patch already does just about everything you talked about for settings
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[00:57:44] stuartm: I'm not saying that they don't have good reason for changing some things, but a series of abuses and very bad decisions made by packagers (in general, not entirely specific to MythTV) has left me deeply suspicious of their overall motives and techinical ability
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[01:01:13] xavierh_: stuartm: where you saying that scrolling in a textarea is not implemented in MythUI ?
[01:02:51] stuartm: xavierh_: it's implemented, as automatic scrolling (stock ticker style) but nothing permitting the user to manually scroll a text area
[01:03:12] xavierh_: ok thx
[01:04:06] stuartm: IMHO the latter isn't really remote control friendly, better to fit everything on screen and if that's not possible to leave something out
[01:06:02] stuartm: <rant>after all, few people really consider that packagers get to make changes to a projects code without ever having been given commit access, or needing to have their work reviewed by developers, in some instances it seems that packaging represents a loophole in the open source system of security</rant>
[01:07:56] stuartm: as neatly demonstrated by Debian's packagers thinking they know better than OpenSSH devs and leaving every Debian user with worthless ssh keys for a period of years
[01:08:42] Anssi: IIRC the debian packagers tried to contact OpenSSH devs first via ml but got no response
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[01:10:11] Anssi: s/OpenSSH/OpenSSL/
[01:10:35] stuartm: Anssi: they shouldn't have been messing around in the first place, they should have shipped the code as they got it, packagers don't have the right to modify the code and then pass it on to users as the 'official application', it's no wonder than Firefox force Debian to rename their packages
[01:10:49] stuartm: right, it was OpenSSL
[01:10:55] Anssi: actually, there were some replies, like  :p
[01:12:24] stuartm: s/than/that/ ... I should be in bed, I always start irritable rants when I'm tired ;)
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[01:15:56] wagnerrp: stuartm: beat me to it
[01:19:46] stuartm: wagnerrp: I'm trusting that it really isn't a bug, otherwise I'll look a touch foolish ;)
[01:22:04] wagnerrp: well there is a bug involved there, #10424
[01:22:24] wagnerrp: but #10421 is just a case of the user breaking their database by updating to a development version
[01:23:41] wagnerrp: i expected the user to open it back up
[01:23:49] wagnerrp: so i didnt want a "real" ticket getting cluttered
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[01:32:38] wagnerrp: sphery: do you think were pretty much done with schema updates, and can do a rollup?
[01:32:46] wagnerrp: or would it be better to wait until late march?
[01:34:31] sphery: I've been waiting just because I don't want to do it twice if I can avoid it... testing takes about 40min to an hour, so I'm hoping to avoid having to redo it. I was thinking of sending an e-mail to the list asking people how sure they are we won't be updating schema
[01:35:31] sphery: with an Apr 2 expected release date, though, there's a lot of time for "oops, we have to change this"
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[01:52:10] xris: !seen Beirdo
[01:52:10] MythLogBot: Beirdo is here and has been idle for 7 hours 6 minutes 44 seconds
[01:57:58] Beirdo: Im here
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[03:45:28] xris: wondering if it's worth trying to move www tonight
[03:50:50] xris: Beirdo: how confident are you that email and lists are ready to go?
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[04:11:37] k-man: moving www?
[04:12:36] sphery: (back to our own server)
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[04:31:41] Beirdo: xris: try sending some mails from it to yourself, that gets almost all of it tested other than mailman itself
[04:32:46] stichnot: danielk22: I need CEA-708 advice. I have a recording with scrolling captions, with each line following this pattern: <characters> DefineWindow(row_cnt=3) AddText(CR) SetPenLocation(col=0, row=2). Since DefineWindow's row_cnt arg is supposed to be incremented to yield the true number of rows, our code keeps overwriting the same row instead of scrolling as intended. I don't know if this is...
[04:32:48] stichnot: ...a bug in the data, or a bug in my understanding. If the former, what's the best workaround?
[04:33:05] Beirdo: let me finish this yogurt, and I'll send another test
[04:33:11] stichnot: The behavior is similar to that described in
[04:44:26] stichnot: When CEA-608 captions are displayed, they appear as a window of 3 lines that continue scrolling up.
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[05:05:56] xris: wow, we have so many DNS subdomains.. not sure we should even be keeping them around..
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[05:35:45] xris: anyone awake who cares to validate my proposed DNS changes:
[05:40:55] ** xris prods Beirdo with a stale trout **
[05:48:15] Beirdo: yup...
[05:50:41] xris: we should switch to salmon now that we're in the northwest. esp. with Captain_Murdoch headed this way, too
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[05:55:40] Beirdo: hehe
[05:55:46] Beirdo: !salmon xris
[05:55:46] ** MythLogBot plants a salmon upside the head of xris on behalf of Beirdo... **
[05:55:50] Beirdo: :)
[05:56:27] Beirdo: I was tempted to buy smoked salmon today
[05:56:39] Beirdo: but I didn't feel like walking to the market in the drizzle
[05:56:43] Beirdo: it will wait
[05:58:45] xris: heh
[05:59:06] xris: you need to wait and go to whole foods and get their maple smoked stuff.
[06:00:25] Beirdo: yah that stuff is mighty tasty
[06:00:53] Beirdo: the smoked salmon with peppercorns at the market is pretty good too
[06:03:55] xris: true. wholefoods was better value for the cost, though
[06:04:00] wagnerrp: wait, whats this?
[06:04:06] Beirdo: by far
[06:04:08] Beirdo: :)
[06:04:14] xris: wagnerrp: salmon or dns?  :)
[06:04:15] wagnerrp: another one of you people headed towards the PNW?
[06:04:33] xris: Captain_Murdoch might be moving here (really close to the canadian border)
[06:04:37] Beirdo: seems so. You'd better move too, don't miss the boat
[06:04:48] wagnerrp: its going to stop being a primary NA project, and become a primarily WashSt project
[06:05:02] xris: have to get everyone up here. best place I've ever lived.
[06:05:08] xris: LOTS of tech jobs at the moment
[06:05:15] wagnerrp: its just so damn cloudy
[06:05:15] Beirdo: we'll have to put the UW imap lib in there
[06:05:36] Beirdo: seriously though, I really enjoy it here too :)
[06:05:48] ** wagnerrp enjoys the sun, even though he never gets outside during the day to see it **
[06:06:33] xris: global warming helps there.. we have long sunny summers these days.  :)
[06:09:46] xris: and it doesn't actually rain much here. just stays grey for a long time in the winter
[06:10:20] Beirdo: it was drizzly today, but just enough to be annoying, not enough to really get wet
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[06:16:01] xris: depends on when you were out and how far you had to walk.  :P mile walk back to work after lunch made me glad I had an umbrella
[06:17:52] xris: Beirdo: minor tweaks to dns request:
[06:18:42] Beirdo: looks good
[06:25:01] Beirdo: album = album = mdata->Album() + " ~ " + QString("%1").arg(mdata->getAlbumId());;
[06:25:07] Beirdo: that just looks... wrong
[06:26:01] Beirdo: I think that will be the equivalent of doing "album = true;"
[06:27:12] Beirdo: certainly the ;; is pointless
[06:27:59] Beirdo: and of course, paul-h isn't on to say "ooops" and go off and fix it :)
[06:28:23] Beirdo: mythmusic/playlist.cpp line 346, BTW
[06:38:46] ikrabbe: is there a database scheme change, when I want to test 0.25?
[06:40:05] wagnerrp: there have been several dozen schema changes in 0.25
[06:40:54] ikrabbe: so I should save my current database before testing, thx
[06:41:47] wagnerrp: its automatically done on any schema update
[06:42:10] ikrabbe: my concern is, that I loose my TV, when I have to switch back :)
[06:42:30] ikrabbe: i know i could just reconfigure it
[06:42:44] ikrabbe: but i hate that... maybe I'm just too laze
[06:42:50] ikrabbe: /e$/y$/
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[07:30:05] xris: Beirdo: you should probably join #osuosl
[07:30:31] Beirdo: K
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[10:02:04] stuartm: Beirdo: delete NULL is perfectly safe, in fact it's redundant to check that a pointer is null before deleting it
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[14:06:34] danielk22: stichnot: I think roll-up captions may have maybe been dropped from the latest 708 standard, it sounds like that's what is supposed to be going on here. I have copies of both the new and old 708 spec somewhere but I'm still working on my taxes this weekend...
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[14:10:04] stichnot: danielk22: I tried a number of hacks to detect and correct that problem, but every attempt caused a problem with some other recording. Finally, I looked at what was essentially a newer version of the old recording — it looks like the broadcaster has fixed their 708 encoding bug by now.
[14:10:48] stichnot: And weren't you doing taxes last weekend? :)
[14:10:55] stichnot: oh, I missed the "still"
[14:13:16] danielk22: Heh, yeah. corp taxes are due in a few days... I'm really just collecting documents to send to the accountant at this point, he's already sent me the extension paperwork to sign... but if I don't do this now I'll be doing it in Sept under more pressure.
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[14:27:01] stichnot: danielk22: what is the latest version of CEA-708? "D"? "E"?
[14:28:11] danielk22: I think it's D
[14:30:19] stichnot: ah, there's a CEA-608-E, which I misread as D
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[14:55:57] Yanc: guys, I bought a peak usb dvb-t. – anyone got any clue on how to get the remote control usable please?
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[15:15:54] kenni: Yanc: This is the MythTV development channel, you want #mythtv-users (or more likely #linuxtv and #lirc)
[15:17:27] Yanc: thanks kenni and sry
[15:22:41] skd5aner: in case it hasn't been mentioned – tons of usability/bug reports appearing on the -users mailing list since beta was released... might be worthwhile to lurk the list for a little while if you don't typically do so
[15:29:29] stuartm: sphery: given the evident confusion over flat view and file browse mode, maybe we should rename one or both for 0.25?
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[15:52:16] stichnot: natanojl: if you're around. I recall you have the DVD and can reproduce . If you're not planning to look into it, is there any chance you could find a way to upload an excerpt of the .iso that shows the problem? e.g. via a re-authoring tool
[15:53:11] stuartm: skd5aner: is reading the -users going to make me sad?
[15:53:34] skd5aner: you might want to avoid the mythmusic thread – but otherwise, decent reports (and some praise)
[15:55:03] skd5aner: the bug reports seem to be legit – I just know not all of them are going to end up in trac, but probably just another good place to check the pulse of what people are seeing in the beta period in addition to what ends up in trac
[15:56:26] skd5aner: stuartm: that said – as I just mentioned in the other channel, some of the uproar on the UX of mythmusic might be valid, but sometimes people lose tact... I'm holding my judgement until I've actually had time to play with the new interface
[15:56:35] stuartm: "videos are only deletable from Video Manager" << OK, I missed that commit, and I'm slightly surprised by it, it used to be the case that videos were only deletable from the manager but I changed that during the mythui port, only it's now gone back to the way it was before
[15:57:06] skd5aner: yea, I remember that one – iamlindoro made it right?
[15:57:59] stuartm: skd5aner: there are issues with the UI/UX, although some of the complaints I've seen are bizarre since the stuff they are complaining about was true of mythmusic in 0.24 and earlier, what I would point out is that the new mythmusic isn't finished, it's a work in progress
[15:58:48] skd5aner: stuartm: hard for me to talk to, not using it myself yet, but it sounds like it relies heavily on adding tracks/albums to playlists before playing them – rather than navigating a library or heirarchy and simply "playing" what you highlight
[15:58:54] skd5aner: that sounds annoying to me too
[15:59:55] skd5aner: but I honestly won't have a grasp on the reality of it until I actually touch it
[16:00:13] skd5aner: I wonder if I should make the leap now... what do you think?
[16:00:19] stuartm: skd5aner: that's not true at all, it was true of the old mythmusic however
[16:00:32] skd5aner: old mythmusic I never had to do that?
[16:00:40] stuartm: you did?
[16:00:50] stuartm: unless there was a mode I wasn't aware of
[16:01:06] skd5aner: yea, it's always worked that way for me
[16:01:09] skd5aner: didn't realize there was another way :)
[16:01:22] stuartm: hmm
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[16:02:02] skd5aner: could easily play a song, album, artist – I think it was slightly more challenging playing the entire library, but I rarely did that via mythmusic...
[16:03:12] skd5aner: There UX of actually playing what I wanted to play in mythmusic up to this point, I'd give it a 7
[16:03:29] skd5aner: could be better, but met my needs as far as getting around the library
[16:03:41] stuartm: skd5aner: well you can do that in the new mythmusic, in the Playlist Editor (tree/gallery) (tree is better) you just select a track/album/artist/genre and it gets queued to play, choose 'Replace' and it's played immediately
[16:04:12] skd5aner: Just I can just navigate and hit the play button, I have to stick it in a the queue?
[16:04:31] skd5aner: ugh... what the heck did I just type?
[16:04:40] skd5aner: let me try again...
[16:04:51] stuartm: yes, just substitute the play button for the select button
[16:04:55] skd5aner: so I can't just navigate to what I what to hear and hit play? It's got to be added to the queue?
[16:05:17] stuartm: although it makes some sense to have PLAY play it immediately vs SELECT which queues it (by default)
[16:05:45] stuartm: skd5aner: if you hit MENU, "replace all tracks" it's played immediately
[16:05:52] skd5aner: yea – I'm very curious now to get around to tyring it out
[16:06:16] skd5aner: I've got some company coming to stay for a week or so next week – so now's not the time to ugprade, but maybe in a few weeks I'll give it a go
[16:06:56] skd5aner: extremely excited that MythMusic got some major love – even if it'll have some rough edges during it "re-birth" – those can always be sanded down :)
[16:08:31] skd5aner: back to the -users list – just wanted to bring attenion to the fact that maybe 25% of the threads there now are related specifically to feedback on 0.25 beta – most of those being issues/bugs
[16:08:37] stuartm: skd5aner: the behaviour of queuing tracks in a playlist is more in line with what most people would do, I've GBs of music, I don't want to sit in front of the TV choosing what to play next as each song ends, I want to queue up some tracks and then do something else (be that return to the party, fill out my tax returns or whatever)
[16:09:19] skd5aner: perhaps... or maybe someone just wants to put their entire libary on shuffle
[16:09:23] stuartm: skd5aner: someone should be advising people to open tickets otherwise there is no guarentee that their issues will get fixed
[16:09:36] stuartm: skd5aner: or that, you can do that too
[16:09:38] skd5aner: not sure if that's easily done or not... can you add at a parent level?
[16:09:45] skd5aner: (like the top parent level)
[16:09:52] stuartm: skd5aner: yes you can
[16:09:55] skd5aner: cool
[16:10:26] stuartm: or use smart playlists, I've one which plays back only 8 star or better tracks which I've not listened to in the last 4 months
[16:10:44] skd5aner: true, the usual suspects usually do suggest that they go to trac, but again – just thought it might be a good place to check for a month and see what the feedback is before release (bugs or otherwise)
[16:11:01] skd5aner: the voice of the masses – it's not always torches and pitchforks ;)
[16:11:19] stuartm: and another which plays only tracks added to the database in the last month
[16:11:33] skd5aner: yea, I've got a several dozen playlists in itunes
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[16:11:47] skd5aner: would be nice if there was a way to sync those in mythmusic – would *LOVE* that
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[16:12:37] skd5aner: Added in the last 3 months, Added in the last year and played more than 3 times, not listened to in the last 6 months and playcount 6+, etc
[16:12:38] stuartm: smart playlists are a fantastic feature, dynamically generated based on preset selection criteria
[16:13:05] skd5aner: yea – that's what I'm talking about – heavy user of smart playlists in itunes
[16:13:54] skd5aner: the general problem is that each player keeps their own stats related to playcounts and date added – unfortunately, those make up the criteria of 75% of my playlists :)
[16:13:54] stuartm: we've had smart playlists for as long as I can remember, but in the new mythmusic they are found alongside the other browse options rather than hidden in a context menu
[16:14:31] stuartm: skd5aner: for mp3 we store playcount/rating in the ID3 tag – date added unfortunately is not an official ID3 tag :(
[16:14:58] skd5aner: yea, itunes ignores that and leverages their db unfortunately
[16:15:00] stuartm: of course that only helps with software which is willing to read the playcount/rating from the ID3 tag :/
[16:15:10] skd5aner: which is a real bummer
[16:15:13] skd5aner: f'ing apple
[16:15:36] skd5aner: stuartm: I use to track my overall playcount
[16:15:51] skd5aner: would be nice if myth count sync with that
[16:16:08] skd5aner: but, frwoap :)
[16:16:30] skd5aner: anyway – gotta run, have a good one
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[16:18:44] kenni: ohh, I didn't know that #10429 was a feature :)
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[16:25:16] danielk22: kenni: not a feature really, it's just the code is simpler if we don't special case dummy recordings.
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[16:26:17] danielk22: kenni: While we're waiting for tuning data we need to give the frontend something to play.. so we create a dummy recording and tell it to play that.
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[16:44:15] natanojl: stichnot: Is it ok if I PM you the URL?
[16:52:37] danielk22: #10414 is interesting, it looks like people are seeing much higher CPU usage than I am.. but I'm still wondering if that is a red herring since it could be something like the rmem_max. For some reason it seems to be set at a ridiculously low value 131071 by default (on Ubuntu).
[16:52:37] natanojl: stichnot: Hm, I thought it was the other ticket about LOTR.
[16:56:00] danielk22: superm1: Any idea why rmem_max would be set so low? It seems that buffer could overflow in just 1 ms on a 1000Mbit network. With timeslices set anywhere between 1ms and 10ms it seems a recipe for dropped packets..
[16:58:26] stichnot: natanojl: absolutely, thanks.
[16:59:11] stichnot: natanojl: there are two LOTR tickets, 9407 and 9429.
[17:01:56] kenni: danielk22: That makes sense...however, I don't see that they get cleaned up within minutes, I still have multiple of them from yesterday. It seems like they get expired/deleted together with the "real" live tv recordings.
[17:03:09] danielk22: Hmm, they used to be cleaned up quickly... sphery do you know of any changes to the deletion of small livetv files?
[17:16:57] stichnot: danielk22: Do you know of any legitimate free source of the information in the CEA-708-D document? (other than the wikipedia page)
[17:17:56] danielk22: stichnot: the mythtv source code :)
[17:18:09] stichnot: :)
[17:21:20] danielk22: Unfortunately the document is $300, cheap for a business implementing the guidelines but expensive for a hobby budget.. I was very happy when SMPTE decided to make their timed-text document free to all comers, but I think something like mythtv just didn't enter the thoughts of the CEA folks.
[17:22:02] danielk22: You could ping one of the authors they might be able to give you the final draft version if you tell them what you are up to..
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[17:29:55] stichnot: OK, that's what I thought. Good idea to contact the authors.
[17:32:54] stichnot: If I read the logging code correctly, there is no longer a way for me to have fully verbose logs (e.g. containing microsecond timestamps) sent to a fixed file like /var/log/mythtv/mythfrontend.log, right?
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[18:06:02] Beirdo: stuartm: experience has shown otherwise. We have had several cases in mythtv in the past where delete NULL crashed us.
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[18:07:03] stuartm: that's impossible
[18:08:18] Beirdo: no it's not. It can be a libc bug, or a compiler bug, but it has happened
[18:08:37] Beirdo: and a simple null check is two instructions.
[18:08:47] Beirdo: load. check against 0
[18:09:24] Beirdo: better safe than sorry... anyways, as it was coded in those two places I changed, it was wrong anyways
[18:09:38] Beirdo: only deleting if NULL does nothing for us
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[18:11:21] stuartm: right, the code was wrong there, but I still maintain that applications would be crashing left, right and centre if such a bug had crept into libc/gcc or otherwise, the standard guarentees that 'delete NULL' is a no-op
[18:11:48] Beirdo: could be there was more to it that I forget then :)
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[18:17:37] stuartm: it can crash if the code has re-implemented delete and failed to check for null values, although I'm not aware of any code in Myth that provides it's own de-allocation (not saying it doesn't exist)
[18:17:55] Beirdo: hmm, yeah, it coulda been something like that
[18:18:14] Beirdo: anyways, good to know that it shouldn't be necessary.
[18:23:30] sphery: kenni: Are the dummy files showing up in the Live TV recording group or other? They're not getting put into Deleted group, right?
[18:25:42] sphery: stuartm: I'm all for any change which would lower confusion about (evil) "File browse mode" (=scan every disk every time you enter Video, work without DB metadata, and lose capabilities) and flat view (especially, if we can find a way to prevent users from thinking they need file browse mode to see content in a hierarchy).
[18:27:43] sphery: stuartm: also, iamlindoro changed the code to only show "Delete" from Video Manager because many people complained that they were deleting files by accident because it was "too easy" to hit--especially with remotes double triggering or latency or whatever
[18:27:50] sphery: was the commit
[18:28:01] stuartm: too easy to hit DElete, then confirm that same deletion?
[18:29:22] sphery: perhaps that's where the double remote events came in to play?
[18:29:37] stuartm: sphery: I'm not quite sure what the revised terms should be, but instead of 'disable/enable flat view' it should be something like 'Show/Hide directory structure'
[18:30:55] stuartm: sphery: confirmation dialogs default to selecting 'cancel', so you'd have to hit "select, left/right, select" to delete a recording by accident
[18:31:59] sphery: yeah, saying directory structure would probably be a lot clearer to most users than flat view (as they're looking for structure, not looking for lack of it)
[18:32:00] stuartm: as for file browse, hmm ... that's difficult
[18:32:00] stichnot: stuartm: unless something has changed recently, mythvideo delete dialogs have always defaulted to 'confirm'
[18:32:15] stuartm: stichnot: that's the real bug then
[18:32:34] stichnot: sphery: how about hierarchical, to avoid confusion with file system directories?
[18:34:03] sphery: it is actually file system directories (just "merged"--i.e. /Kids under all storgage group directories is shown as a single "directory")
[18:34:24] sphery: but I don't have a big preference on wording--though I do agree changing it might make it easier for users to understand
[18:34:57] sphery: it seems "directory" would be the word they're expecting, but as you mentioned, it's not 100% precise
[18:36:23] stuartm: stichnot: fixed
[18:36:46] stichnot: cool, thanks
[18:42:16] sphery: stichnot: as far as logging, you are correct. Since the only way to get a "you name it" log file is using syslog, and since syslog doesn't do microseconds, you lose microseconds
[18:42:43] ** sphery still needs to put the rottlog configuration file for rotating mythtv log files on the wiki **
[18:42:56] sphery: (that being the mythtv-named log files)
[18:50:00] wagnerrp: Beirdo: are syslog logs still asynchronous, or are they sent immediately?
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[18:53:32] sphery: all logging is async, but with DB and file logging, we create the times when LOG() is called. syslog does its own time (when syslog function is called?), so that means even if you enable microseconds in rsyslog, the times may be way off
[18:54:36] wagnerrp: i was just wondering whether syslog, or some external logger of our own, could be a shortcut to the issue of losing uncommitted logs during a segfault
[18:57:07] Beirdo: they are all async
[18:57:59] Beirdo: it comes off a common queue. The only way of doing sync is to bypass that queue, and I plan on adding support for that in the 0.26 cycle, specifically for debugging those segfault type things
[18:58:33] Beirdo: there *should* be no reason we can't go through the queue by hand though, unless Qt buggers us by hiding the details too much.
[18:58:37] wagnerrp: right, i know this was brought up before
[18:58:43] Beirdo: it should still be in memory
[18:58:48] wagnerrp: ah
[18:58:51] stuartm: sphery: a slight imprecision in terminology is better than the status quo if it's causing so much confusion
[18:59:32] stuartm: if we can think of a suitable alternative to 'file browse' then we're all set
[19:00:04] Beirdo: one thing I've found useful for debugging if you KNOW where the problem is.. put sleep(1); abort(); right before the problem
[19:00:21] Beirdo: that will let the logs flush, and get you a core dump
[19:00:43] stuartm: 'Enable full metadata' – masks the underlying realities but still describes the difference in behaviour between 'file browse' and database browsing
[19:01:19] Beirdo: I'm also thinking of adding in 0.26 a signal handler for SEGV and others that will allow the logging to flush
[19:01:28] Beirdo: but that can be a royal PITA at times too
[19:01:53] sphery: stichnot: FWIW, it seems with rsyslog, "if you would like to use high-precision timestamps in your log files, just remove the ";RSYSLOG_TraditionalFormat". That will select the default template, which, if not changed, uses RFC 3339 timestamps."
[19:02:19] Beirdo: sphery: that gets ms or us?
[19:02:37] sphery: stichnot: agreed... and "Enable full metadata" sounds like a good thing, so I wonder how many enable it just based on that?
[19:02:59] sphery: Beirdo: hehe, not sure, but it's "high precision" :)
[19:03:12] stuartm: sphery: do you know if we get any metadata at all in file browse mode (ignoring file derived stuff)?
[19:03:38] stuartm: that could be reduced to 'Enable/Disable Metadata'
[19:03:51] sphery: RFC 3339 seems to just allow "time-secfrac" without limiting the fractional portion
[19:04:44] Beirdo: hehe
[19:04:47] Beirdo: so specific
[19:05:47] sphery: stuartm: but "Enable metadata" only applies when using "File browse mode", right? (I.e. we always use metadata without "File browse mode".) Does it only show up for those people who enable file browse mode? (Or are you saying to condense both file browse and enable full metadata to a single option?
[19:09:16] stuartm: sphery: I'm saying that we should rename 'enable file browse' to 'disable metadata' and vice-versa
[19:09:41] sphery: that sounds good to me--makes it sound bad, like it is :)
[19:09:49] stuartm: since that's the net effect of file-browse, it makes it less appealing to use too
[19:09:59] sphery: yeah, agreed
[19:10:26] wagnerrp: stuartm: my question on #10432 was in regards to pausing video
[19:10:36] wagnerrp: when we pause video, we re-enable the screen saver
[19:10:49] wagnerrp: and if pausing is managed by the flash player, and a mouse
[19:10:55] wagnerrp: we have no way of knowing anything has happened
[19:11:03] Beirdo: OK, I'm goin out for brunch, no breaking crap while I'm gone :)
[19:11:51] wagnerrp: if we dont have javascript hooks to control the player internally, IMHO we shouldnt touch the screen saver, and should leave it up to the flash player to deal with that as it sees fit
[19:12:55] sphery: though you could make the argument that if they pause a flash video they shouldn't expect the screensaver to work (since they don't want it to enable when they're watching the flash video)
[19:13:08] stuartm: wagnerrp: whether it's paused or not doesn't seem to matter IMHO, we know when the user starts watching and when they stop, we can inhibit the screensaver on behalf of the user between those two points
[19:14:25] wagnerrp: assume if theyre going to walk away for any considerable amount of time, they will exit the player?
[19:14:35] stuartm: I'm not even sure it's possible for a browser plugin to disable the screensaver, that would require the netscape plugin api to support it and then it would actually be the browser which disables the screensaver
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[19:51:22] stichnot: Beirdo, sphery : what do you think about adding a relative timestamp to the syslog output?
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[20:34:19] Beirdo: stichnot: relative to what?
[20:35:45] stichnot: I don't know, application start time? Or maybe I should enable both syslog and logpath and go to the logpath files when I want performance data
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[20:52:30] xavierh_: stuartm: I implemented the title window idea looking forward for comments
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[21:42:20] superm1: danielk22: rmem_max is set by the kernel to be 131071 by default (which is what i see on my ubuntu precise system): . . . /core/sock.c
[21:43:37] superm1: danielk22: i don't think it's anything specifically modified by ubuntu though
[21:46:16] superm1: looks like it's the same on linuses' tree,
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[22:27:28] gigem: danielk22: re #10414, i'm seeing the same problem with my ceton infinitv4. i'm not using rtp, so i doubt the problem has anything to do with tcp. i've got a hunch on what my be causing the problem, but don't want to point any fingers until i'm sure. unfortunately, i can't try anything until after midnight cst.
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