Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Thursday, March 1st, 2012, 00:20 UTC

[00:20:45]

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[00:28:42]

sphery:

stichnot: we don't want a new action name for it. we currently allow any user to fix that issue--the only problem is there's no UI for doing so. You simply create an UNDO/REDO binding in the TV Editing context, and it will override the Global binding when in TV Editing context. We just need to fix MythControls (Setup|Edit Keys) to allow users to override a global binding in any non-global context

[00:28:53]

sphery:

but that would definitely be a new feature :)

[00:30:10]

sphery:

At this point, my recommendation for those who want to bind keys that only work as UNDO/REDO in TV Editing is to poke them in DB directly (though it's not something I'd recommend unless someone is really annoyed by it)

[00:30:42]

sphery:

besides, in theory, users won't be using undo/redo all that often--meaning they can use it through the menu

[00:32:17]

sphery:

(and, fwiw, "real life" was a shopping trip at Home Depot :)

[00:32:22]

frankster:

crap mythtv's suddenly started doing double actions when i press up or down. irw only shows one event. what else do i need to check?

[00:32:50]

frankster:

is it possible fvwm is responding to remote events and passing them through to mythtv as well?

[00:37:09]

sphery:

frankster: likely kernel is sending a key press and lirc is sending a lirc message for the same button press... probably need something like: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/504746#504746 (or, search for: lirc devinput)

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stichnot:

sphery: I use undo more than I care to, because I constantly misremember whether I need to move the previous/next cut/keep mark

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frankster:

sphery: hmm that post is about multiple protocols being active but there's only one on mine

[00:53:07]

frankster:

is there some way to force lirc to exclusively open the device?

[00:53:17]

stichnot:

and sphery, I believe that an undo/redo binding won't do anything in the TV editing context without explicit extra code. I think we had an email discussion about it a year ago

[00:53:27]

stichnot:

anyway, sounds like that's a no-go for 0.25 :)

[00:54:00]

frankster:

sorry i thought i was in mythtv users channel

[01:02:38]

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[01:09:36]

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[01:11:03]

Rasperin:

So I'm having a few issues with MythTV

[01:11:04]

Rasperin:

mythtv-setup: error while loading shared libraries: libmythtv-0.24.so.0:

[01:11:58]

Rasperin:

it exists in /usr/local/lib

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[01:12:51]

Rasperin:

I'm also having the same issue with the development environment (another issue with cannot find 'decoders\*c'

[01:13:01]

Rasperin:

'decoders\*.c'

[01:14:23]

xavierh_:

Rasperin: You probably want #mythtv-users (see topic)

[01:14:32]

Rasperin:

yeah, just noticed that

[01:14:34]

Rasperin:

However

[01:14:40]

Rasperin:

I'm actually trying to develop for that

[01:15:00]

Rasperin:

that decoders\*.c thing is from qtcreator

[01:15:06]

Rasperin:

trying to build the libs project

[01:15:18]

Rasperin:

I've been digging through the documentation and theres nothing on it

[01:15:47]

wagnerrp:

i dont think anyone actually uses the Qt IDE

[01:16:02]

Rasperin:

oh really? Are you all just using vim + make?

[01:16:09]

Rasperin:

or w/e text editor?

[01:16:28]

wagnerrp:

text editor of some sort, and make/gmake, yes

[01:16:30]

Rasperin:

(I'm working on trying to remove ffmpeg so it's a little more than just a small change)

[01:16:44]

wagnerrp:

remove ffmpeg?

[01:16:49]

wagnerrp:

mythtv is built around ffmpeg

[01:16:52]

Rasperin:

yeah

[01:16:53]

Rasperin:

I know

[01:16:57]

Rasperin:

and it's fairly dated

[01:17:00]

Rasperin:

that's why

[01:17:08]

wagnerrp:

so sync a new version

[01:17:17]

wagnerrp:

were likely going to do so shortly after the 0.25 release

[01:17:17]

Rasperin:

if you guys choose to take it or not is up to you

[01:17:33]

wagnerrp:

which is scheduled roughly a month from now

[01:17:37]

Rasperin:

moving fully away from ffmpeg (and actually make it so it can be changed out at a drop of a hat)

[01:17:47]

Rasperin:

oh really

[01:18:20]

wagnerrp:

i dont think there is any likelihood of us moving to an external ffmpeg pulled from whats available on the system

[01:18:22]

Rasperin:

a myth based transcoder or something else that already exists?

[01:18:41]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: why?

[01:18:41]

wagnerrp:

there are too many complications with trying to use different versions of ffmpeg, its just too much effort

[01:18:50]

wagnerrp:

the ABI changes too often

[01:18:57]

wagnerrp:

so we include our own snapshot

[01:19:09]

wagnerrp:

and resync once or twice per dev cycle

[01:19:24]

wagnerrp:

however this cycle, its been about a year

[01:19:34]

Rasperin:

yeah, that's part of the reason I'm switching it out

[01:19:41]

wagnerrp:

longer than average, as no one really wanted to deal with deciding which ffmpeg fork to follow

[01:19:55]

Rasperin:

because every change they make doesn't seem to be backwards compatible with a previous version

[01:20:21]

wagnerrp:

if youre interested in performing another sync, try talking to beirdo

[01:20:26]

wagnerrp:

he was the one who did it last

[01:21:05]

wagnerrp:

ffmpeg was shifted into the 'external' folder a while back to make future syncs easier

[01:21:09]

Rasperin:

cool, good to know, so you're saying though no one would really be interested in having a redesign of the interoperability of ffmpeg?

[01:21:19]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: I saw that

[01:21:30]

Rasperin:

I haven't taken a full look into what this will take yet tbh

[01:21:55]

Rasperin:

I was just reading online how a few people were ticked off about how it's so tightly integrated into it

[01:22:08]

xris:

I think "convince ffmpeg devs that backwards compatibility is important" would be the first (and most difficult) step

[01:22:12]

Rasperin:

so I said to myself "hey, that could be fun" however, I have my own selfish reasons for this

[01:22:37]

wagnerrp:

xris: i dont think were in a position to request that... :)

[01:22:49]

xris:

wagnerrp: hence "most difficult" :)

[01:23:01]

Rasperin:

And you guys can clarify this for me, I'm working on funding (have $5m set aside out of $15m for 5 years, 75 total) signed to a company

[01:23:29]

Rasperin:

and I was going to have the developers upgrade and improve mythtv (leaving it 100% opensource, the proprietary software would be in a completely seperate project)

[01:24:11]

xavierh_:

Isn't Torc more suitable ? :D

[01:24:15]

Rasperin:

however, having a full professional team to help support mythtv I thought would be cooler than rewriting

[01:24:37]

Rasperin:

from scratch

[01:24:57]

wagnerrp:

xavierh_: i would expect mark to have the same opinion of shifting to an external ffmpeg

[01:25:34]

xavierh_:

That's what I meant

[01:25:46]

wagnerrp:

Rasperin: simply put, every time we sync, there are a range of things we need to re-tweak due to different behavior in ffmpeg

[01:26:17]

wagnerrp:

if we supported an external ffmpeg, we would have to have a whole range of various tweaks built into the code, and switch them out as needed depending on the version

[01:26:32]

wagnerrp:

or, we would just end up with strange bugs that exists if not running a specific version

[01:26:50]

wagnerrp:

xavierh_: no, i mean i would expect him to have the same opinion of sticking to an internal copy of ffmpeg

[01:27:11]

sphery:

besides, we can't use system-provided ffmpeg or libav because the sheer number of compile time options available that have significant impact on functionality would lead to 90% of users having at least "partially broken" MythTV

[01:27:29]

sphery:

i.e. we need it compiled the way we compile it

[01:27:47]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: Ah, and that was my original notion of removing it completely

[01:28:12]

wagnerrp:

Rasperin: replaced with something other than ffmpeg?

[01:28:23]

Rasperin:

yeah

[01:28:54]

Rasperin:

an internal app that we'll be releasing to the OS community

[01:28:57]

Rasperin:

err

[01:29:01]

Rasperin:

app was a bad choice of words

[01:29:05]

wagnerrp:

library?

[01:29:10]

Rasperin:

yeah...

[01:29:41]

Rasperin:

we currently run it cross platform in our production systems for live streaming professional confrences

[01:29:58]

Rasperin:

it has a wide range of support for different codecs, etc

[01:29:58]

wagnerrp:

would have to talk to someone who actually interfaces with the ffmpeg libraries to get an opinion on that

[01:30:27]

wagnerrp:

danielk22 or Captain_Murdoch or Beirdo

[01:30:29]

wagnerrp:

!seen taylorr

[01:30:30]

MythLogBot:

taylorr was last seen 1 day 6 hours 14 minutes 15 seconds ago

[01:30:34]

wagnerrp:

or that guy

[01:30:39]

Rasperin:

lol

[01:31:54]

wagnerrp:

in the past, our internal copy, and much of our video, was actually maintained by one of the ffmpeg devs

[01:32:12]

wagnerrp:

so what you suggest would likely be outright rejected

[01:32:19]

wagnerrp:

right now... like i said, you would have to get their opinion on it

[01:33:02]

Rasperin:

that's fine, I guess worst get's to worst we can rewrite our own (which was the original decision). I just really wanted to contribute to the open source community if we could.

[01:33:30]

Rasperin:

(Once we hit production, we're going with the google fridays....)

[01:33:51]

** wagnerrp has no idea what "google fridays" are **

[01:33:54]

Rasperin:

I know it sounds like sympathetic bs, but hey I don't need jack closed source

[01:33:55]

wagnerrp:

a search engine, but with flair?

[01:34:00]

Rasperin:

:D

[01:34:06]

Rasperin:

open source fridays

[01:34:14]

wagnerrp:

is that some program they run?

[01:34:39]

wagnerrp:

dont think we dont appreciate the sentiment

[01:35:57]

xavierh_:

Rasperin: out of curiosity, what is it about? What would be the added value from mythtv ?

[01:35:57]

Rasperin:

yeah, supposedly every friday there devs get to work on an open source (new or existing) project of there choice

[01:36:15]

xavierh_:

s/there/their :)

[01:36:57]

xavierh_:

/g

[01:37:08]

Rasperin:

xavierh_: well a small problem there

[01:37:22]

Rasperin:

and that's been another barrier

[01:37:37]

Rasperin:

trying to say enough to be clear, without giving away the business model

[01:37:43]

Rasperin:

or well trying to think of a way

[01:39:52]

Rasperin:

essentially, the benefit to us is having a good chunk of 1/2 (depending if we used it as the base for the desktop app too or not) already.

[01:40:55]

Rasperin:

the benefit to you guys would be a constant professional team constantly making bug fixes, adding extra options (really can't go into detail yet about that), modularizing ffmpeg or adding a much better version in :P

[01:41:30]

Rasperin:

adding an open source copy for secure hdmi (I don't know if myth already supports that yet or not)

[01:41:33]

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[01:42:07]

wagnerrp:

you cant do any form of DRM in open source

[01:42:22]

wagnerrp:

thats something that would only be available to a distributed binary

[01:43:43]

Captain_Murdoch:

Rasperin, how do you plan on dealing with the licenses involved if you're a commercial entity releasing source code? seems like you're painting a big target on your back. don't you expect MPEG-LA to come after you if you're a commercial entity?

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[01:44:20]

Rasperin:

Captain_Murdoch: I'm preparing to work with them, along with the major studios

[01:44:23]

Rasperin:

so I have more than a few

[01:44:52]

Captain_Murdoch:

and you think they'll be fine with you paying a license fee then releasing the source code as Open Source?

[01:46:00]

Rasperin:

Captain_Murdoch: and if they're not, then that would get pulled out to a seperate application that works between the two.

[01:46:15]

Rasperin:

Our security framework for the most part was already going to be part of that

[01:46:39]

Rasperin:

however, at that point for things like secure hdmi (not drm) I may not be able to get around it at all

[01:46:44]

Rasperin:

and that would kill it where it stood

[01:47:04]

Rasperin:

there's hopes and trying to trade vital statistics worth hundreds of millions of dollars

[01:47:15]

Rasperin:

and there's just going another route, that's reality

[01:47:44]

wagnerrp:

Rasperin: 'secure hdmi' means HDCP, DRM

[01:48:03]

wagnerrp:

it revolves around the ability to keep secure keys away from the prying eyes of the user

[01:48:11]

wagnerrp:

so it cannot be done through open source

[01:48:25]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: I'm thinking traditional DRM (calling back to a server to verify existance) versus a protocol which works on the hdmi port

[01:49:04]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: just like all other open source cryptology, working with a nounce should do a decent job of obfuscating it

[01:49:04]

wagnerrp:

DRM is all the same, protecting the content from the user

[01:49:16]

wagnerrp:

which requires code in the middle outside the users control

[01:49:33]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: yeah and if the studios would work with me without it I'd be happier than a pig in shit

[01:49:40]

wagnerrp:

when the code is open source, and the user can simply recompile the code to remove the relevant bits

[01:49:52]

wagnerrp:

there is no way to implement any form of drm

[01:50:06]

wagnerrp:

unless you do something like google with chrome/chromium

[01:50:15]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: working on a communication between two application premises works

[01:50:23]

wagnerrp:

chrome has the keys, chromium doesnt

[01:50:32]

Rasperin:

essentially a closed source binary, that application a contacts to handle all of that

[01:50:56]

Rasperin:

and streaming content (aka protected content) is then dealt through the second application

[01:51:31]

Rasperin:

and application A is just asking the binary for the information

[01:51:48]

wagnerrp:

which means the whole player is going to have to be ripped out and replaced, under the realization it may not have access to the raw video

[01:52:26]

Rasperin:

which then gives you seperation of concerns, application A displays the content, manipulates the stream, collects vital statistics, application B streams the content

[01:52:35]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: no, all it would take is adding a hook

[01:52:44]

Rasperin:

the stream would come through decoded just like from website xyz.com

[01:52:56]

Captain_Murdoch:

but application 'a' can't see decrypted content at all, the closed source binary would have to handle display and since I can capture display. since the display code (X, video drivers, etc.) is open source, then the fact that you have a closed source binary doesn't mean much.

[01:53:00]

Rasperin:

but instead of pointing to xyz.com it points to B

[01:53:07]

Captain_Murdoch:

the studios don't want you to have access to the decoded data ever.

[01:53:38]

Rasperin:

Captain_Murdoch: I watch hulu, I can throw a screen capture program up and capture the content

[01:54:07]

Rasperin:

just like how hulu's desktop app works

[01:54:19]

Rasperin:

(remember hulu is owned by the big studios)

[01:54:23]

Captain_Murdoch:

yeah, and they want to prevent that.

[01:54:29]

Rasperin:

it decodes from the internet

[01:54:34]

Rasperin:

and then displays it

[01:55:21]

Rasperin:

well B decodes from the internet, to access B you have to have the keys (username/password auth token) to access the data you will have to have the token

[01:55:37]

Rasperin:

the building of the token is your credentials + sha1 (which is open source anyways)

[01:55:40]

Rasperin:

or w/e

[01:56:16]

Rasperin:

essentially even knowing all the protocols, etc would give you the same vulnerabillities hulu's app has

[01:56:24]

Captain_Murdoch:

and as soon as you release that, someone else releases a patch to just 'record' to a file instead of displaying on a monitor. that's why itwon't work with an Open Source player.

[01:56:28]

Rasperin:

but the real question is, why not just run a screen cap program

[01:57:15]

Rasperin:

Captain_Murdoch: the stream comes through the closed source binary

[01:57:25]

Captain_Murdoch:

and goes to where?

[01:57:41]

Captain_Murdoch:

to the Open Source code or directly to the display?

[01:58:08]

Rasperin:

yeah, I lose, instead of to the memory (which if you know the range it's stored in you could do the same...) to another app connecting to it

[01:58:10]

Captain_Murdoch:

if to the Open Source code, then someone will write a patch to save the data to a file instead of displaying.

[01:58:13]

Rasperin:

which makes it easier

[01:58:16]

Rasperin:

you win on that point

[01:58:36]

Rasperin:

but all the work that goes behind that, (plus to even get ahold of this binary you have to get into our system)

[01:58:56]

Rasperin:

(hence why I said 1/2 above, I don't think I could release this on a desktop for the reasons mentioned)

[01:59:07]

Captain_Murdoch:

decoding what's in memory is tricky, trying to sync audio, video,etc.. saving a decoded stream from your closed-source binary is trivial if you have an open source app receiving the stream and displaying it.

[01:59:38]

Rasperin:

Captain_Murdoch: okay, let's drop the typical desktop side of connecting to the binary

[01:59:47]

Rasperin:

let's go with the media center only

[02:00:09]

Rasperin:

one of the security features we are adding is that if you open the case, wipes the device

[02:00:09]

Captain_Murdoch:

essentially that's what we do with the HDHR or any tuner. we're receiving a stream and saving it to disk.

[02:00:18]

Rasperin:

you could do a backup, but then you need to decrypt the drive

[02:00:33]

Captain_Murdoch:

if you have a closed source media center that's another story..

[02:00:36]

Rasperin:

there is usb running in a virtual machine

[02:00:53]

Captain_Murdoch:

but we're drifting way off MythTV development here...

[02:00:54]

Rasperin:

we're building 3 apps a web/mobile/media center

[02:01:06]

Rasperin:

well not really, the benefits of building the media center app

[02:01:17]

Rasperin:

and all the support and features still goes back to mythtv

[02:01:29]

Rasperin:

and on our side only leaves half the fight up to us

[02:01:37]

Rasperin:

which was going to be there any way we look at it

[02:01:43]

Captain_Murdoch:

not directly related to MythTV development because MythTV will never be able to see your decrypted stream. NetFlix, Hulu, etc. don't want us seeing their decrypted stream.

[02:02:04]

wagnerrp:

Rasperin: the issue is that youre talking about replacing huge chunks of mythtv, to service the ability to access DRM'd streams

[02:02:10]

Rasperin:

Ah, have you guys tried working with them before?

[02:02:15]

Rasperin:

that could kill out of the boat

[02:02:25]

xris:

Rasperin: it's a matter of being not legal

[02:02:26]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: not really, it'd be a hook

[02:02:36]

wagnerrp:

since the open source versions would be unable to access those streams for the above reasons

[02:02:52]

wagnerrp:

those big changes would be of no benefit to the open source versions

[02:02:59]

Rasperin:

really? they both have developer hook ins

[02:03:11]

Rasperin:

and open development kits

[02:03:40]

wagnerrp:

from the point at which the video hits the system, until it leaves for the tv or is deleted

[02:03:49]

wagnerrp:

it can only be handled unencrypted by a binary blob

[02:04:21]

wagnerrp:

there is a huge amount of mythtv that expects it will be able to read and process that video

[02:04:32]

wagnerrp:

that is now replaced by whatever is in that binary blob

[02:04:59]

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[02:06:09]

wagnerrp:

even if that binary blob is completely open source, besides the versions specially compiled and signed with the keys

[02:06:21]

wagnerrp:

its still a radical redesign of the internals

[02:06:37]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: I'd have to read there terms on there developers (for both of them) to verify what you are saying.

[02:06:44]

Rasperin:

I'll take your word on it if you say you've read it

[02:06:48]

xris:

hulu and netflix inclusion would be awesome but at this point it seems it would take a completely separate playback plugin. if not an entirely separate plugin altogether.

[02:07:01]

wagnerrp:

i dont know whose terms youre talking about

[02:07:11]

Rasperin:

netflix and hulu's

[02:07:12]

Captain_Murdoch:

Rasperin, have you ever seen an Open Source app playing Hulu or Netflix (excluding streaming via a middle man like PlayOn)

[02:07:14]

wagnerrp:

im referring to the general demands of any DRM format

[02:07:15]

Rasperin:

they both have open sdks

[02:07:41]

xris:

and that's assuming that hulu wouldn't block playback outright like they have for every other "on tv" device (at least until hulu plus came about)

[02:07:48]

Captain_Murdoch:

If Netflix had an open SDK that could play their streams, we'd have had NetFlix support years ago.

[02:08:33]

Rasperin:

Captain_Murdoch: let me dig that up

[02:08:47]

sphery:

wasn't it boxee that Hulu was playing games with--changing things to break their Hulu access since, "Hulu is meant for use on a desktop computer, not for display on a TV and control with a remote" (i.e. it isn't supposed to replace people's cable subscriptions)

[02:08:51]

Rasperin:

I know for sure netflix does, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about hulu

[02:09:09]

Captain_Murdoch:

I don't expect you back soon. I'm 99.9999% sure they don't have an open SDK taht gives you decrypted video and audio data to display yourself.

[02:09:17]

Rasperin:

http://developer.netflix.com/

[02:09:18]

sphery:

biggest problem with netflix is their use of Silverlight + Silverlight DRM

[02:09:38]

wagnerrp:

sphery: they were formerly working WITH boxee, until the license owners got pissy and blocked it

[02:09:52]

Rasperin:

it's behind there username/password wall

[02:09:56]

wagnerrp:

after which they went back and forth several times, blocking access attempts

[02:10:12]

Captain_Murdoch:

and playing Hulu via flash isn't the same as getting decrypted audio and video data.

[02:10:14]

sphery:

isn't the public netflix API just for queue management?

[02:10:41]

Captain_Murdoch:

sphery, that's what I thought. I have a 'mythtv' dev account with them in case we revive our plugin.

[02:10:43]

xris:

sphery: that's all it used to be. mythflix did that but then people stopped using it so we stopped developing it

[02:10:43]

Rasperin:

Do:

[02:10:44]

Rasperin:

For Netflix Branded Applications that evoke playback ensure the highest possible quality of experience for video streams.

[02:10:55]

Rasperin:

right on that link

[02:10:59]

sphery:

Rasperin: from your link ( http://developer.netflix.com/ ): May not play Netflix movies inline, but may launch our stand-alone player when a member hits the Play button. (Not available for Mobile applications.)

[02:11:25]

Captain_Murdoch:

Rasperin, they don't give you access to raw decoded video and audio data which is what we'd need.

[02:11:27]

Rasperin:

sphery: even then, that would be fine under an opensource app

[02:11:31]

Rasperin:

hooking in there code

[02:11:31]

wagnerrp:

"including functional Add and Play buttons in your web application"

[02:11:36]

Rasperin:

but allowing there play

[02:11:42]

Rasperin:

ack

[02:11:43]

sphery:

Rasperin: well, their player only exists on Mac OS and Windows

[02:11:46]

wagnerrp:

that sounds like you need Silverlight, and just call up their Silverlight player

[02:11:48]

xris:

sphery: I heard a rumor a few months ago that netflix was moving to html5 video. but not yet. I can't tell now because I cancelled my streaming membership

[02:11:56]

Captain_Murdoch:

Rasperin, and Netflix doesn't have a binary player that works under Linux.

[02:11:56]

Rasperin:

sphery: I watch netflix on this box?

[02:12:15]

Rasperin:

but I'm getting what you guys are saying

[02:12:23]

Rasperin:

you could still integrate a webview into your application

[02:12:37]

wagnerrp:

Rasperin: Netflix only supports streaming through Silverlight on PCs, which is only available on Windows and OSX

[02:12:43]

xris:

Captain_Murdoch: that reminds me, I wanted to look at plugging into amazon instant streaming like roku does.

[02:12:46]

Captain_Murdoch:

xris, I can't see them doing a standard, that'd be too easy to intercept and download.

[02:12:52]

wagnerrp:

while OSX might be worth it, there is next to no Windows frontend usage

[02:12:56]

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[02:13:00]

wagnerrp:

and the primary linux user base would be out in the cold

[02:13:05]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: atleast this much is true, they are moving to html5

[02:13:12]

Rasperin:

since MS is EOLing Silverlight

[02:13:14]

xris:

Captain_Murdoch: maybe it just referred to the player container, not html5 video

[02:13:33]

wagnerrp:

Android and ChromeOS are technically linux, but the netflix players for those require locked down systems to operate

[02:13:43]

Captain_Murdoch:

well, html5 video is different depending on what browser you use. different browsers support different formats.

[02:14:00]

wagnerrp:

if you flip the switch on a chromebook that allows you to run your own applications, netflix will refuse to operate

[02:14:05]

Rasperin:

Captain_Murdoch: html5 is a standard

[02:14:09]

Rasperin:

how would it be that different

[02:14:20]

Rasperin:

ontop of that, firefox would be one such browser I would assume

[02:14:22]

Captain_Murdoch:

Rasperin, there is no standard html5 video that will play on all browsers

[02:14:27]

wagnerrp:

HTML5 does not define any form of DRM

[02:14:28]

Rasperin:

or kill 40% of there audience (which they have no problem)

[02:14:44]

wagnerrp:

and even if it did, it would have to be controlled by an authorizing agency

[02:14:46]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: however there was a press release from them a few weeks ago

[02:14:51]

wagnerrp:

and would only be available to binary releases

[02:14:56]

Rasperin:

planning on having html5 playback by sometime in june

[02:15:13]

Rasperin:

which would still allow for netflix integration into mythtv

[02:15:15]

wagnerrp:

ill believe it when i see it

[02:15:21]

Rasperin:

you would just have to put a switch

[02:15:22]

Rasperin:

k

[02:15:22]

Rasperin:

sec

[02:15:34]

wagnerrp:

and youll likely see netflix integration rigged up by someone by the end of that weekend

[02:15:34]

sphery:

xris: fwiw, that's based on the proposed (and currently looking to be rejected) DRM extensions for HTML5 video: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip . . . d-media.html

[02:15:36]

Rasperin:

http://techblog.netflix.com/2010/12/html5-and . . . reaming.html

[02:15:40]

sphery:

i.e. not gonna happen

[02:16:15]

Rasperin:

hulu already supports html5 playback on certain content

[02:16:25]

Rasperin:

(aka not hulu+ content)

[02:16:51]

wagnerrp:

likely only content that the owners have decided they don't mind being out in the open

[02:16:53]

Rasperin:

however, I simply think there is no way you are ever going to get hulu on a pvr

[02:17:02]

wagnerrp:

released under creative commons or some such license

[02:17:03]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: house

[02:17:04]

sphery:

btw, Microsoft, Google, and Netflix submitted the proposal and Ian Hickson (of W3C--and also a Google Employee) has called it unethical

[02:17:24]

Rasperin:

huh

[02:17:32]

Rasperin:

why would it be unethical to use html5

[02:17:33]

wagnerrp:

fox allows house episodes through an HTML5 player

[02:17:34]

wagnerrp:

?

[02:17:44]

Rasperin:

iirc yes

[02:17:49]

Rasperin:

I can find that article too if you'd like

[02:17:51]

sphery:

unethical to add DRM to HTML5

[02:18:03]

Rasperin:

ah

[02:18:04]

wagnerrp:

HTML5 is supposed to be an open standard, that anyone can implement

[02:18:07]

Rasperin:

well I agree :)

[02:18:12]

wagnerrp:

DRM by definition means only select people are allowed to implement it

[02:18:13]

Rasperin:

but they'll do whatever they damn well please

[02:18:35]

Rasperin:

well long round about, I have another question

[02:18:38]

Rasperin:

let's look at android

[02:18:42]

Rasperin:

or linux in and of itself

[02:18:50]

Rasperin:

why couldn't I include say a proprietary license

[02:18:54]

Rasperin:

as a hook or plugin

[02:18:57]

Rasperin:

into mythtv?

[02:19:09]

Rasperin:

they both have it

[02:19:23]

Rasperin:

realtek, catalyst drivers

[02:19:26]

Rasperin:

etc etc

[02:19:33]

wagnerrp:

the language of the GPL disallows proprietary code to link with it

[02:19:50]

wagnerrp:

proprietary drivers get around that by using an intermediary layer

[02:20:01]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: essentially what I'm proposing

[02:20:07]

Rasperin:

hdcp would be a driver

[02:20:10]

wagnerrp:

the proprietary code links with the intermediary layer, and that intermediary layer links with the kernel

[02:20:17]

Rasperin:

drm can be decrypted in part b (which would just be a plugin)

[02:20:27]

wagnerrp:

but youre missing the key issue

[02:20:35]

wagnerrp:

as mythtv is designed, all that decrypted video passes through mythtv

[02:20:43]

Rasperin:

the fact that it's accesible at one point in time

[02:20:50]

wagnerrp:

decrypted video in an open source application means no viable DRM

[02:20:55]

Rasperin:

however, how do hdcp drivers work then?

[02:21:04]

Rasperin:

hdcp is a _driver_

[02:21:05]

wagnerrp:

on linux, im pretty sure they dont

[02:21:15]

Rasperin:

on windows, it's still a driver

[02:21:20]

Rasperin:

I can send any application through and from it

[02:21:28]

wagnerrp:

windows has their whole protected video path, for which they spent gobs of money developing for Vista

[02:21:38]

Rasperin:

windows xp?

[02:21:47]

Rasperin:

I have a bluray player playing blurays on my xp machine

[02:21:48]

wagnerrp:

i do not believe XP supports HDCP

[02:21:54]

Rasperin:

blurays require hdcp

[02:21:58]

wagnerrp:

no they dont

[02:21:59]

Rasperin:

wait how are you playing blurays

[02:22:01]

Rasperin:

without hdcp

[02:22:07]

Rasperin:

I thought that was part of the spec

[02:22:22]

Rasperin:

and you couldn't play any bluray without hdcp

[02:22:24]

wagnerrp:

blurays with the image constraint token require HDCP, or else they downscale the video before outputting it

[02:22:28]

Rasperin:

(hdcp is still integral to my concept)

[02:22:37]

Rasperin:

it's the hard one to get around

[02:22:40]

wagnerrp:

nothing in bluray requires HDCP for playback

[02:22:49]

wagnerrp:

and only a limited number of movies require it at all

[02:22:50]

Rasperin:

I see

[02:23:07]

Rasperin:

I don't know, I'd have to see if the studios bitch

[02:23:12]

Rasperin:

but I'll let them bitch first

[02:23:26]

Rasperin:

I have to present my security document

[02:23:33]

Rasperin:

which is (trust me) more than enough to wow them

[02:23:41]

Rasperin:

but that is one whole

[02:23:46]

Rasperin:

that's going to be a bitch to exploit

[02:24:06]

Rasperin:

(since to get to it, you'd have to get through a lot of different sec measures, such as a wipe)

[02:24:18]

Rasperin:

so the question is though

[02:24:21]

Rasperin:

since you all are here

[02:24:25]

Rasperin:

still interested?

[02:24:58]

Beirdo:

I'm not all here

[02:25:02]

Rasperin:

:D

[02:25:21]

wagnerrp:

id love to see some form of commercial interest in mythtv, i just dont see anything DRM-related happening

[02:25:37]

wagnerrp:

i think theres just simply too much that will need to be changed to make it compliant

[02:25:45]

Beirdo:

I'm about half drunk, and working on the other half

[02:25:49]

Rasperin:

The drm related plugin would be open source, but you'd have to have the proprietary driver to work with it

[02:26:00]

wagnerrp:

that it will end up being easier for an application that wants to get properly licensed for drm content to start from scratch

[02:26:03]

Rasperin:

Beirdo: well then perfect time to talk to you about ripping out ffmpeg :)

[02:26:13]

Rasperin:

see people are more agreeable when they're drunk

[02:26:35]

Beirdo:

hmmm, that's not likely to happen without a viable dropin replacement

[02:26:44]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: and if we have to we will, till then though I'd like to present this as an option to my cofounders and investors

[02:26:57]

Rasperin:

Beirdo: I'll grab you another day about it

[02:27:03]

Rasperin:

I have to start my meeting in a few minutes

[02:27:16]

Rasperin:

I'll brb

[02:27:22]

Beirdo:

Mmm, Mike's Hard Limeade

[02:27:53]

Rasperin:

:D

[02:36:14]

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[02:36:55]

acidfreeze:

does the WinTV-HVR-1600 perform well?

[02:37:35]

acidfreeze:

i wanted to make sure i got a good card this time. i had the 150 version and it kinda lagged

[02:38:02]

xris:

acidfreeze: wrong channel. check the topic.

[02:38:16]

acidfreeze:

crap been a while

[02:40:48]

Rasperin:

So anyways

[02:41:51]

Rasperin:

after all that, does anyone know why I'm getting :-1: error: No rule to make target `decoders/*.c', needed by `*.o'. Stop.

[02:42:00]

Rasperin:

make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/ray/Development/cpp/Qt/myth/mythtv/mythtv/libs-build-desktop-Qt_4_8_0_in_ PATH__System__Release/libmythbluray'

[02:42:03]

Rasperin:

make[1]: *** No rule to make target `decoders/*.c', needed by `*.o'. Stop.

[02:43:33]

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[02:52:30]

wagnerrp:

dont we have some kind of problems building against 4.8?

[03:06:41]

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[03:54:31]

Rasperin:

wagnerrp: that could be the case

[03:54:35]

Rasperin:

I am running 4.8 qt

[04:11:11]

jya:

wagnerrp: I've built myth against 4.8 on the mac without problems

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[06:36:22]

Rasperin:

is there anything special I need to do for making mythtv on 64bit linux?

[07:02:28]

sphery:

Rasperin: should just work, but if it's a multilib system that uses crazy lib dir names (i.e lib64), you'll probably have to use --libdir-name on configure (see ./configure --help )

[07:24:21]

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[07:24:25]

Vink-:

Hi there

[07:29:03]

Vink-:

since few days.. I've a problem on my mthtv box (mythbuntu 0.24.2): I can scan DVB-T channel, but, cannot record or read eit data... and when mythbackend is on, dvbsnoop -nph 0x12 works fine

[07:29:42]

Vink-:

does someone know where to start to look at ?

[07:33:01]

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[07:42:34]

xris:

Vink-: no reply probably means you're in the wrong channel and didn't notice...

[07:42:42]

xris:

(check the topic)

[07:42:49]

Vink-:

oops

[07:43:45]

Vink-:

thany for it

[07:43:53]

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[12:58:37]

stuartm:

jya: as I was noting yesterday, there used to be an --ignore-schema type arg to mythfrontend for exactly that reason, but it seems that it was factored out when the command line parsing was re-written

[12:59:05]

jya:

stuartm: actually, I believe it's sphery that removed it on purpose

[12:59:15]

jya:

so people wouldn't mess with it

[12:59:33]

jya:

on linux I use this: --extra-cxxflags='-D IGNORE_SCHEMA_VER_MISMATCH -D IGNORE_PROTO_VER_MISMATCH

[12:59:55]

jya:

however on the mac, I haven't had the ability to add custom cxx flags.. I just did :)

[13:00:19]

stuartm:

ah, right, yeah that rings a bell

[13:01:24]

jya:

… I don't get it.. I try on my 4th mac, identical in settings and tools installed as my first one, and on this one it doesn't compile

[13:01:27]

jya:

https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/blob/master/ . . . /greedyh.asm

[13:01:49]

jya:

about MotionSense; not being defined…

[13:02:41]

jya:

looking at the code, it actually makes sense…

[13:03:50]

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[13:04:48]

stuartm:

MASKS_DEFINED is defined elsewhere?

[13:05:35]

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[13:06:00]

** jya looking **

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[13:08:35]

jya:

actually, it seems that the asm isn't being compiled at all

[13:21:42]

jya:

i don't get it :(

[13:26:43]

jya:

hummmm.. only difference is that I didn't compile in non-debug time this time...

[13:40:41]

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[13:51:20]

jya:

yep.. compiling with compile-type=debug works.

[13:51:25]

jya:

must be an LLVM issue

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[17:22:32]

stichnot:

What is MythMovieTime?

[17:23:13]

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[17:24:48]

jams:

it was a plugin that showed movie times and where they are playing

[17:24:52]

jams:

it has been discarded

[17:25:06]

stichnot:

I see, thanks.

[17:25:26]

stichnot:

More generally, I noticed that the NetworkControl constructor references a number of nonexistent jump points, and should be cleaned up.

[17:27:56]

wagnerrp:

ideally, it should be removed

[17:28:18]

wagnerrp:

but that would require the jump points themselves defining a 'pretty' name to be displayed

[17:30:42]

danielk22:

stichnot: Bringing up MythMovieTime reminded me of MythRecipe, the one plug-in I really miss...

[17:31:53]

stichnot:

danielk22: never heard of that!

[17:33:13]

stichnot:

wagnerrp: I noticed for a while that the network control's "mythvideo" jump point has been broken, and wanted to fix it. I'd like to correct the mappings and remove stale entries for 0.25.

[17:33:44]

wagnerrp:

plugins automatically get a jumppoint created when they are loaded

[17:33:53]

wagnerrp:

which would have gone away when it got integrated into core

[17:34:05]

wagnerrp:

but i thought someone added a replacement several months back

[17:34:24]

stichnot:

would "Video Default" be the right translation for "jump mythvideo"?

[17:34:34]

danielk22:

It was a while ago.. Plugins had a lot of attention in the early days and then interest petered out. I had hoped GoogleTV would take off mostly because their apps would fill the gap mythtv plugins were supposed to fill.

[17:35:16]

stichnot:

there are 5 different mythvideo jump points to choose from in libmythmetadata/globals.cpp

[17:35:17]

danielk22:

But then again AFAIK there is no good recipe app out there.

[17:46:40]

stichnot:

Was there an old jump point called "Play DVD" that has been renamed "Play Disc"?

[17:48:03]

stuartm:

danielk22: I've a vague hope that interest in plugins will revive a bit once I've improved the plugin API, the fact that every plugin requires modification of the official menu themes to work is one good example of why there isn't a community of third party plugin developers

[17:50:15]

stuartm:

if plugins could insert their own menu items, could display embedded information into screens (think summarised weather report show in menu menu) and could better override or hook into existing features then maybe there would be more interest

[17:57:16]

stuartm:

danielk22: adding --signoff to the git args will add the 'Signed off by danielk' line to the end of the commit message so that it's obvious at a glance who the commit was made by

[18:00:55]

stuartm:

I'm sure there is a git setting that will always sign off commits when --author is used

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[18:11:30]

stichnot:

Anyone who knows/uses jump points, please check over https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/ff593fadc for any mistakes in the network control jump point cleanup.

[18:14:39]

stichnot:

The network control names should be integrated into the jump point registration, but that's a task for a different day...

[18:39:32]

sphery:

stichnot: fwiw, it looks good to me (and thanks for finding the disconnect)

[18:40:32]

stichnot:

sphery: thanks for checking. (I got here by trying to find out why "jump mythvideo" wasn't working...)

[18:42:03]

sphery:

Someone in #-users had said that the mythvideo jump point wasn't working, and I thought they were crazy... Now I think they just used the wrong terminology/description of the problem.

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[19:08:57]

skd5aner:

stichnot: MythMovieTime was actually changed to MythMovies which was later removed...

[19:09:52]

skd5aner:

(prior to 0.24)

[19:10:30]

skd5aner:

which, actually pissed me off one time as I used it to look up a show time for a movie, showed up, and it didn't start for another 3 hours :P

[19:10:39]

skd5aner:

so, I don't miss it much :)

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[19:16:37]

stichnot:

:)

[19:20:05]

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[19:24:06]

wagnerrp:

yeah, it had limited utility, limited further by accurate available information

[19:24:39]

wagnerrp:

so many things seem to be limited by accurate information

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[19:32:20]

stichnot:

I'm looking for situations where there there is more than one legacy MythDialog in the screen stack (or whatever you'd call it) at a time. One example is if you're on the nth screen of a setup page (but that's being reworked into MythUI). Are there any others?

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[20:29:47]

danielk22:

superm1: do you have any pull to make build-essential depend on manpages-dev ? :)

[20:31:21]

superm1:

danielk22: probably not as a direct depends/recommends on build-essential – that comes from debian and will take some debate to make it happen

[20:31:21]

superm1:

http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/10240

[20:31:27]

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[20:31:45]

superm1:

but maybe ubuntu-dev-tools or like they were saying a C developer task (if you use tasksel to install developer tools)

[20:33:16]

superm1:

danielk22: also: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bui . . . /+bug/391472

[20:39:11]

danielk22:

superm1: I don't like to use tools like tasksel, it just adds more complexity when a meta-package should work. But I can buy the "build-essential" just installs the _essentials_. But it seems we really need a higher level meta-package that installs most of what a developer wants on a machine... including doxygen, man pages, libtool, make, g++, etc.

[20:39:45]

danielk22:

maybe yasm too :)

[20:40:12]

superm1:

yeah, i think that 391472 would hit exactly what you would want then. ubuntu-dev-tools is more geared for the ubuntu developer working on packaging and bug fixing

[20:40:19]

superm1:

so just like a generic dev-tools metapackage

[20:41:02]

danielk22:

yeah, I don't expect everything, but don't like to spend half a day installing basic developer packages..

[20:42:19]

superm1:

looking through the archive there are a couple of packages like that tailored to specific types of developers (there's a ubuntu-dev-tools, kubuntu-dev-tools, ubuntuone-dev-tools, qt4-dev-tools, xfce4-dev-tools). so maybe a c-dev-tools package would do the trick

[20:44:05]

danielk22:

yeah, c-dev-tools... :)

[20:44:39]

superm1:

can you come up with a list of the stuff that you would want in it? i might be able to make it happen

[20:49:58]

danielk22:

superm1: autoconf, manpages-dev, doxygen, telnet, nano, grep, ed, yasm, g++, gcc, make, ccache, distcc

[20:50:28]

superm1:

and build-essential – whatever is already in that list?

[20:50:41]

superm1:

er (build essential minus what's in that list i meant)

[20:51:19]

danielk22:

heh, yeah build-essential + those things.. I think g++,gcc,gmake are already in build-essential.

[20:52:12]

danielk22:

grep, and sed come pretty much by default on all systems.. but I could see them getting dropped as general packages and they are pretty essential to a developer.

[20:52:45]

superm1:

okay i'll start out mentioning it on that bug and see if the build-essential maintainer is up to keeping it in that source package or they insist on a new source package

[20:52:56]

danielk22:

bash and awk would probably be in that list of things you already get but would be more sorely missed by a dev than most end users.

[20:53:19]

superm1:

i think some of those are part of ubuntu-standard which will be on every system

[20:54:44]

danielk22:

I'm paring all the things I really need for mythtv but I think are pretty specific to it, like the particular -dev libraries we need; those should be handled by build-dep mythtv and for the most part are handled by it.

[20:56:32]

superm1:

i think that's a pretty good selection for general developers though

[20:58:14]

danielk22:

superm1: If you can make that package happen I'm sure others will come up with additional suggestions :)

[21:04:41]

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[21:41:49]

stuartm:

I'm stumped on how to properly handle composition/dead keys in mythuitextedit, I can easily implement a hack that might sort of work for basic character support – é,ñ.ö etc but would probably overlook more complex cases

[21:43:25]

stuartm:

I can't see how Qt does it (Qt embedded has lookup table, I've still not deciphered it but I could recreate it using full QT keycodes)

[21:44:34]

stuartm:

does anyone have a clue how this is supposed to work?

[21:46:51]

danielk22:

stuartm: I wonder if Qt even fully supports something like Chinese or Japanese...

[21:57:14]

danielk22:

Does anyone here have a recorder with multiple connected inputs? Whether true multiple inputs or DVB-S ?

[21:57:53]

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[21:58:16]

danielk22:

7e4740ea may fix #8941, but I don't the setup to test it.

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[22:48:17]

danielk22:

stuarta: #7923... looks unlikely to be looked at for 0.25, should that be punted to 0.26 or unknown?

[23:01:44]

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[23:06:20]

Beirdo:

danielk22: I'd say unless we know it's gonna be 0.26, it's probably best to say "unknown", and then set it when it gets worked on. Just my $0.02 :)

[23:10:02]

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[23:14:30]

danielk22:

stuarta: I added a patch to #8251 and updated the ticket.

[23:14:37]

stuartm:

ordered my RaspberryPi ... either the best £30 I've spent or money down the drain

[23:14:55]

Beirdo:

just think of it as a few pints

[23:15:34]

danielk22:

Beirdo: There is a patch on #7923, it may just need a review and some testing..

[23:16:20]

Beirdo:

Ahhh. :)

[23:17:05]

Beirdo:

be nice if the OP would update whether the patch works

[23:20:14]

Beirdo:

I'm having a lot of fun trying to track down some horrible behavior in mythtranscode (at least in fifo mode)

[23:20:34]

Beirdo:

always fun to have a meaty bug to chew on a bit

[23:21:10]

Beirdo:

so far, seems... if I get the "AFD: Unknown audio decoding error", the transcode ends shortly after

[23:24:15]

Beirdo:

although that could just be a red herring still

[23:34:10]

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