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Saturday, February 25th, 2012, 00:17 UTC
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[00:21:20] danielk22: wagnerrp: How do you send it to cerr ? qPrintable()?
[00:27:15] kormoc (kormoc!~kormoc@mythtv/developer/kormoc) has quit (Quit: kormoc)
[00:50:43] wagnerrp: danielk22: pulled from argv with QString::fromLocal8Bit(), sent to cerr with QString::toLocal8Bit()::constData()
[00:51:56] Captain_Murdoch: does anyone (around) have any issues with kenni and knightr applying tr() string patches like the one in ticket 10352 @ http://code.mythtv.org/trac/attachment/ticket . . . ve-cons.diff I think it should be fine, especially since we have the buildbot autochecking for compile mistakes.
[00:59:01] knightr: Captain_Murdoch, did anybody bug you with this? If the choice of the other devs is that it continues like that I am OK with it but I have always found it somewhat funny that we couldn't do that since I think it's in part because we submitted code (and not only translations) that we were offered to join the team and I have been programming professionnally for the last 18 years... :)
[00:59:19] knightr: s/couldn't/can't
[00:59:58] knightr: (and if it no longer compiles I can fix it, don't worry... :) )
[01:00:40] ** knightr usually test fixes like that anyway... **
[01:05:47] sphery: knightr: hehe, I bugged Captain_Murdoch because I think you guys should be able to touch any tr() or QT_TRANSLATE_NOOP stuff without having to request permission first
[01:07:02] knightr: sphery, Thank you!
[01:07:48] sphery: put another way, I think we, the devs who aren't restricted to just translations commits, trust you guys, the translation devs, much more than you guys realize :)
[01:09:14] sphery: so, just to be perfectly clear, I also think it's fine for them to edit any tr() or QT_TRANSLATE_NOOP strings, without explicit permission, too
[01:10:33] knightr: sphery, I have always wondered if you guys knew I am (and Kenni most probably is) a programmer, the reason I got into translation (among other things) is that it's something I could help with right now since I am not as comfortable in C++ as I am in some other languages....
[01:10:34] danielk22: Captain_Murdoch: Yeah, I think anyone on the translation team should be able to touch anything in tr() or similar.
[01:14:12] danielk22: wagnerrp: The reason I ask is because I can see the output of QString::toLocal8Bit() changing after QApp init. The 16-bit unicode to QString transform shouldn't really change.
[01:15:05] danielk22: wagnerrp: Oh, you used fromLocal8Bit() that's can change after QApp init.. It's probably just the same as fromAscii() before init.
[01:15:47] sphery: knightr: FWIW, I do (and did) know you're a programmer, but even if you weren't, I'd still trust you with the string changes (though that's even more reason you should be trusted :)
[01:16:47] wagnerrp: danielk22: changing the command line parser to just use QString directly, rather than QString::fromLocal8Bit, exhibits the same behavior
[01:17:05] knightr: sphery, :-)
[01:17:24] knightr: sphery, does you offer to help themers still stand? Did it include people doing solo work? I don't remember...
[01:18:29] wagnerrp: using fromLocal8Bit after QApplication init causes it to work properly
[01:18:50] wagnerrp: danielk22: note, this is more than just printing incorrectly, mythavtest is not able to open the file for playback as well
[01:19:18] sphery: knightr: yes, and yes (though I'm probably not a lot of help on actual theming--but as far as helping with finding a place to host theme and getting repos set up and helping find people more helpful than me, I think I can help out)
[01:21:16] danielk22: wagnerrp: QString(char*) is no different from QString::fromAscii(char*) so I would expect the same problems.
[01:22:17] wagnerrp: QString(QByteArray) just calls ::fromAscii as well
[01:22:38] danielk22: QTextCodec::codecForLocale() is used to do the transform fromLocal8Bit(), I'm guessing this changes when after QApp init...
[01:22:43] wagnerrp: so would that mean manually doing QString::fromLocal8Bit(QByteArray::constData())
[01:23:25] knightr: sphery, I contacted the guy who contacted xris and hwile I couldn't offer him translation "work" I suggested he might want to look into making themes and he seemed quite interested by the idea...
[01:24:36] sphery: nice... I'm definitely interested--I'm actually in the process of setting up some infrastructure to allow more user-involvement in themes we currently "own"
[01:24:50] danielk22: wagnerrp: if the codecForLocale() isn't set yet that wouldn't help.. you could call one of the QTextCodec::convertFrom.. methods directly.. but ideally this would all just be done after the locale is set by the QApp init.
[01:25:15] wagnerrp: danielk22: im talking about storing it in a QByteArray during initial parsing
[01:25:15] knightr: I told him I would get back to him with additionnal information, BTW do you know what's the ETA for the MythTV theming for dummies book? :-) (I sure would like to read it...)
[01:25:33] wagnerrp: and then converting to a QString once setCodecForLocale() has been run
[01:25:34] knightr: s/additionnal/additional
[01:26:13] wagnerrp: my concern about doing the parsing AFTER QApplication init is that it rips out any arguments that it handles internally
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[01:26:41] wagnerrp: we would lose access to a lot of things like -display
[01:27:20] knightr: sphery, essentially the question is: do we have any doc to help somebody make a new theme? (something that does more than explain the tags...)
[01:27:50] wagnerrp: danielk22: on the other hand, i could just store a duplicate of argv/argc inside the parser, and then wait until after QApplication init to actually parse it
[01:30:09] sphery: knightr: Not really... I was hoping some of that type of documentation stuff would come about as part of setting up Theme Teams--but since those didn't really happen. That said, if neither stuartm nor jpabq want their themes used as the default for mythtv (which would entail designing a 4:3 "copy" of the same theme), I may start up a new theme specifically to become the default, and will definitely need help with it (was figuring I'd scare ...
[01:30:15] sphery: ... people into helping by showing my lack of ability :). And, I do plan to document as much of the process as possible as I/we do create the new default.
[01:31:14] wagnerrp: ill put the qbytearray stuff in and see if that fixes it
[01:32:09] sphery: wagnerrp: as a completely wild suggestion, do we really need to provide the command line to Qt for any reason? could we just pass a 0/blank argv into the constructor?
[01:32:21] sphery: i.e. is it doing anything useful for us?
[01:32:23] knightr: sphery, you would make some kind of tutorial I gather?
[01:33:03] sphery: probably tips, suggestions, tutorial, type things
[01:33:03] knightr: BTW, looks like the best documentation we've got is http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythUI_Theme_Development . Is everything in MythUI now though?
[01:33:21] wagnerrp: im thinking no
[01:34:07] knightr: sphery, good idea!
[01:34:23] sphery: knightr: yeah, that's the official reference... there's very little that's not mythui, yet, so other than the fact that it's not a step-by-step tutorial/does very little hand holding for a noob, it's the best currently available source of information
[01:34:44] sphery: note, though, I still have to learn everything, so...
[01:35:49] knightr: sphery, anyway unless I misunderstood how that works anything not themed uses some sort of default/template theme
[01:36:04] knightr: (but I could have misunderstood...)
[01:36:25] xris: knightr: cool. I replied to him, too, just in case.
[01:38:50] knightr: xris, if you don't mind me asking what did you tell him and around what time (I want to know which reply came first) and if he had gotten both replies when he replied back (just to make sure his interest in theming has not changed...)
[01:39:10] xris: it was maybe 6 hours ago
[01:39:25] xris: I just directed him to the translators page.. just wanted to make sure that *someone* wrote him back
[01:39:42] sphery: stuartm / jpabq : btw, regarding your new themes, if either of you /do/ want them to become default and don't mind <you or someone> creating an "identical" square-format theme as well as "giving up" some of the ownership, that works for me, but I had a feeling you might want to "hold on" a bit longer before letting other people get their grubby ideas all over your nice, shiny, new themes :) So, if you prefer, I'll start up a new theme pair ...
[01:39:48] sphery: ... specifically with the hope of them becoming the default--and, therefore, being able to make it bland and boring enough that it's not controversial and where I explicitly want others to take control (since I'm completely unqualified)
[01:40:45] sphery: knightr: and, yeah, we have a fallback to default/default-wide for missing windows and such
[01:41:37] knightr: xris, LOL don't worry, I try very hard to keep my word...
[01:42:28] xris: I must have missed that you said you would reply
[01:42:30] knightr: xris, I wrote to him around 2 PM EST during my pause
[01:42:42] xris: been just a tiny bit stressed the last few weeks.
[01:42:56] xris: finally employed again. exactly where I would have been if I hadn't let them lay me off.
[01:44:18] knightr: xris, mmm, I hope you guys are getting my messages, that's the second or third time I send something to the ml and some people don't seem to receive them...
[01:44:51] jpabq: sphery, one of the issues I ran into created Steppes, was trying to figure out what *invoked* each window defined in the theme. I finally got smart and started adding a comment to the top of each <window> that gave an example of how to invoke it.
[01:44:54] knightr: sphery, ah, so the worst thing that can happen is that they get the default...
[01:45:42] jpabq: I should go into default/default-wide and add those comments, so future theme creators don't have to search so hard.
[01:45:45] sphery: jpabq: nice... I'm sure that will go into any tutorial :)
[01:45:52] Captain_Murdoch: knightr, (and kenni), I think you can take this and the above conversations as official approval for you guys to touch strings related to translation in the code.
[01:47:06] jpabq: sphery, how many Myth users still use 4:3 TVs?
[01:47:12] sphery: knightr: fwiw, your mails are coming through
[01:48:30] jpabq: Making a 4:3 version steppes *may* not be that hard, but would require picking some "information" to throw away.
[01:48:55] sphery: jpabq: not sure, but figured if we have to have a default square and default wide theme, it should be the same theme... plan is to make default/default-wide a fully-functional theme (and the only one shipped with mythtv, and all others would be installed with Theme Chooser). It would still also be the fallback, but it would be usable on its own. Now, if we decide to get rid of square-aspect themes (and just scale wide aspect ones), that ...
[01:49:02] sphery: ... would be easier
[01:49:04] xris: jpabq: should add that to the smolt stuff. but I suspect there are more than a few who use 4:3 monitors (as in "not a TV")
[01:49:12] sphery: jpabq: FWIW, my plan was--like you did on steppes--to use mainly shapes and not a lot of images
[01:52:14] sphery: my main concern with making a theme "borne out of an artists love of MythTV" the default is that our default will probably become a "designed by committee" type thing--probably needing to often take a "least objectionable" approach, which might be considered "boring"--and didn't want anyone's vision "corrupted"
[01:52:23] knightr: Captain_Murdoch, Thank you! That will make our jobs so much easier... If we need to change context (like in this commit were I got sphery's OK: https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/edfe1b8a0 , changing context in some cases mean calling the tr() of another class ) or adding tr() will still require appoval, right? (I just want to make sure, not just assume...)
[01:52:41] knightr: s/appoval/approval
[01:52:59] sphery: I still think that's translation stuff (and I /know/ you know the effect better than I do :)
[01:54:23] jpabq: The reason Steppes *may* not be that hard to convert to 4:3, is because I made heavy use of relative offsets and sizes. That allowed me to change my mind about how big something should be, without having to re-layout all the elements.
[01:56:21] jpabq: Steppes would not make a good "fallback" theme, though. It's layout is a little radical in some places, combined with the fact that it's native resolution is 1920x1080, not 1280x720.
[01:57:01] Captain_Murdoch: jpabq, not necessarily 4:3 TVs, but 4:3 monitors might expect. I have several frontends that are just using 4:3 LCDs.
[01:57:39] jpabq: yeah, the other chris made the same observation.
[01:58:29] knightr: sphery, and I think know why the person who coded it like it was coded before coded it like that, he didn't realize tr() was static and that he didn't need to call the one from QObject, he could call the one from the class he was in when from his static methods... That makes a lot of difference in how it's presented to the translators and doesn't add any overhead to speak of...
[01:58:45] knightr: s/when//
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[02:00:44] jpabq: sphery, One of my motivations to keep working on Steppes, was the fact that the "fallback" looked terrible, since it was 1280x720 being rendered in a 1920x1080 theme.
[02:01:26] jya_: What, over 2.5 hours shopping, and no update to #10337 ticket? danielk22 there's some lax occurring here :)
[02:02:13] knightr: Do all the strings we have in MythTV (even the English one) actually fit in a 4:3 theme? AFAIK, not all of them do...
[02:03:21] knightr: s/one/ones... (that's one of those: I need more coffee days I guess...)
[02:04:41] jpabq: knightr, like I said above, the only way I could turn Steppes into 4:3 would be to throw some information away on some screens. For example, on the Watch Recordings screen, I would have to choose to display either the original air date, or the length or the channel name. Or, I would have to make it three lines of text instead of two, resulting in fewer episodes being displayed....
[02:05:48] knightr: jpabq, sorry I guess I missed that comment... BTW, congrats on getting you new theme out!!
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[02:06:37] jpabq: knightr, Thanks. And thank you for your help!
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[02:07:09] jya_: jpabq: do you have some screenshots somewhere?
[02:07:41] jpabq: jya_, sorry, I don't right now. Guess I should do something about that.
[02:08:13] jya_: it's available on the theme downloading page ? (in the settings)
[02:09:09] knightr: jpabq, np, I was glad I could help. I wish I could have tested it even more thoroughly than I did but our translation is still not entirely completed...
[02:09:55] knightr: Must be very funny to see the output of that demo camera when you go into MythZoneminder... :)
[02:10:02] jpabq: knightr, Captain_Murdoch says that pushing updates are relatively easy. So, if you do find issues it should not be a big deal to fix them.
[02:10:43] knightr: jpabq, Thank you!
[02:10:47] jpabq: jya_, Yes, Steppes is now available as a choice on the theme download page.
[02:11:10] jya_: going to try right away
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[02:30:04] jya: anyone has a mac 10.5 or 10.4 installation going ?
[02:48:43] gigem: jya, sphery: /me crosses fingers and knocks wood and hopes the livetv input ordering is finished with my last commit.
[02:49:06] jya: gigem: did you look at danielk22 fix?
[02:50:14] gigem: jya: no, not yet. hopefully tomorrow.
[02:50:51] jya: because with danielk22 fix, there should be no need for having a particular priority order for livetv, making your fix unecessary
[02:51:06] danielk22: jya: It was my turn to do bedtime tonight. I'll update the ticket tomorrow morning. I know where it is getting hung up.
[02:51:09] gigem: Captain_Murdoch, jpabq: what does it take see the new theme? i chose "Refresh downloadable themes", but still don't see it.
[02:51:56] jya: gigem: does your new fix allow to swap cards as required while in livetv?
[02:52:35] gigem: jya: i think there's still a desire to have a priority order. btw, the commit i did is not the patch from yesterday. this was for a related, but different issue.
[02:53:24] gigem: jya: if i understand correctly, you already could by choosing menu / source/ switch input.
[02:53:53] jya: but that should be completely unecessary to have to manually change source
[02:54:06] jya: how would a user know which one is actually the one he wants?
[02:54:08] jpabq: gigem, a refresh worked for me, but I have had problems with that on the Myth virtual machine I have been using for development. Once it was a permission problem, and the other time, I just had to retry a few times. Maybe Captain_Murdoch has an idea.
[02:54:40] jya: IMHO, it would have been better to hold off on that one until it's been fully tested. Especially as danielk22 one allows change of cards on the spot...
[02:54:58] gigem: after danielk22's fix, it might not be strictly necessary for regular users, but it's still nice for testing and debugging to choose the specific input.
[02:55:45] Captain_Murdoch: I don't recall if 'refresh' force downloads the index file from the server.
[02:55:49] ** Captain_Murdoch goes to check **
[02:56:50] jya: gigem: if your new fix is working on a similar basis as the previous one, danielk22 mode was not compatible. By that I mean neither cases were fixed when both were applied
[02:59:13] gigem: jya: this change really shouldn't have anything to do with the fix danielk22 is making. this is fixing issues with the schedorder/livetvorder changes that i made several weeks ago.
[03:00:10] jya: ah ok… it seems it would fix in a similar fashion the choice of the encoder when entering liverTV, as the one you put yesterday
[03:01:31] Captain_Murdoch: the theme chooser should re-download the themes.zip index file if it is older than 10 minutes old. gigem do you have a ~/.mythtv/tmp/themes.zip and if so, does it have Steppes listed in it?
[03:04:12] jpabq: It was that ~/.mythtv/tmp dir that I had permission problem with, once. I must have accidentally run myth as root somewhere along the line.
[03:05:08] gigem: Captain_Murdoch: fyi, this is for my development version which uses ~/.mythtest. anyway, the only themes.zip i have is .mythtest/tmp/remotethemes/themes.zip with a date from ~1:40:00 ago. it is an html file reporting a 404 error.
[03:07:33] gigem: Captain_Murdoch: i just tried my production version and don't see the new theme there either.
[03:08:01] Captain_Murdoch: does the 404 have any info about the url it tried to fetch?
[03:10:03] gigem: Captain_Murdoch: http://pastebin.com/XxpcJHxJ
[03:12:59] Captain_Murdoch: gigem, what is MYTH_SOURCE_PATH set to in libs/libmythbase/version.h
[03:14:50] Captain_Murdoch: if that isn't "master", then we look at the MYTH_BINARY_VERSION to try to determine what version of themes we should use.
[03:16:27] gigem: Captain_Murdoch: that's the problem. i typically run with my private branch. it's currently called "local/0.25".
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[03:17:38] Captain_Murdoch: I need to figure out a better way to deal with that.
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[03:18:20] gigem: okay. let me know what you decide. i can rename my branch if need be.
[03:19:17] Captain_Murdoch: I could check for [0–9]*.[0–9]*-fixes and use MYTH_BINARY_VERSION in that case, else use 'master'.
[03:20:10] Captain_Murdoch: probably best to just specify it somewhere that we change at release.
[03:20:20] Captain_Murdoch: hard to handle all scenarios of local branch names.
[03:23:47] gigem: Captain_Murdoch: understood. my MYTH_BINARY_VERSION is unchanged, so perhaps something else is wrong. on the web site do you have "trunk" == "0.25"?
[03:26:15] Captain_Murdoch: no, website just has 0.24 and trunk, no links since we don't have access to the ftp site to make links. I have the beginnings of a download tracker php file that I want to get in place before 0.25 is released, so I could make that serve up trunk/master if the version dir didn't exist. once you have the themes.zip file, it contains all the URLs you need.
[03:26:39] Captain_Murdoch: might be able to make links I guess since they use rsync to mirror the ftp stuff.
[03:29:39] gigem: what do i need to do with themes.zip? i copied it to .mythtv/tmp, but there's still no sign of the new ones.
[03:31:25] Captain_Murdoch: easiest thing to do if you just want to test Steppes is to just snag it from the ftp site and unzip it into ~/.mythtest/themes/ ftp://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/mythtv/themes/trunk/ . . . .0_trunk.zip
[03:31:38] Captain_Murdoch: then you don't need themes.zip.
[03:32:11] Captain_Murdoch: it creates the subdir for you.
[03:32:17] gigem: i'll do that. i've got to go now anyway. thanks for the help.
[03:32:46] Captain_Murdoch: yw, I'll see what I can do to make it work for branches. I've known about that issue for a while but haven't got around to it.
[03:50:47] sphery: jya: we do still need live tv order to allow users to choose to put live tv on tuners less likely to be used for recordings so they don't get interrupted with "A recording is about to begin" messages
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[04:35:09] Captain_Murdoch: gigem, what output does "git branch -v -v" give you? I wonder if I can add another #define to version.h that will list the upstream to figure out whether a branch is from master or a released version.
[04:49:02] skd5aner: jpoet in here?
[04:49:13] jpabq: yup
[04:49:20] skd5aner: ah, hey jpabq
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[04:49:35] skd5aner: got a screenshot of Steppes I could take a look at?
[04:49:35] jpabq: Hi
[04:50:00] jpabq: I do, I just don't have a place to easily put them right now
[04:50:12] skd5aner: also, are you distributing it as part of myththemes/core?
[04:50:33] jpabq: It is available in the theme download manager.
[04:50:45] skd5aner: jpabq: http://tinypic.com/ :)
[04:51:04] Seeker`: http://cjo20.net/preview.jpg
[04:51:12] Seeker`: thats the preview image in the Steppes theme
[04:51:40] skd5aner: oh, nice :)
[04:52:13] skd5aner: jpabq: well, just curious if it's officially distributed as part of 0.25 or more of a "third-party" theme that people can get through the download manager?
[04:52:39] Seeker`: skd5aner: from what I gathered, it looks like the idea is to move most themes to the download manager
[04:52:39] skd5aner: jpabq: if it's going to be distributed as part of MythTV, I'll be sure to call it out in th release notes :)
[04:53:37] jpabq: skd5aner, yeah, it is "officially" in the download manager ;-)
[04:53:55] skd5aner: sigh... not sure I'm asking the question appropriatey
[04:54:38] skd5aner: I know how users will "get" the theme – but are you officially submitted the theme to the MythTV project so that it's "owned" by the project, or are you retaining all rights and maintaining it exclusively as a "3'rd party" theme?
[04:55:06] jpabq: That is a good question.
[04:55:56] skd5aner: If the theme is now "owned" by the project, then I'd be more apt to include it in the release notes as a contribution directly towards the 0.25 release...
[04:56:10] skd5aner: if it's going to be owned and maintained by you, then I don't necessarily feel it belongs there...
[04:56:40] jpabq: I am not prepared to answer that question right now. I am going to have to think about the ramifications.
[04:57:02] skd5aner: i.e., arclight used to be a MythTV theme, but iamlindoro specifically requested that it be removed as an "official" mythtv theme and that he maintain it himself outside of the packaged/distributed themes – yet it was still available via the download manager
[05:00:34] skd5aner: so, either it'll become part of the repository itself, or it won't... I guess that's up to you and the other devs
[05:01:09] skd5aner: I think there was some debate a while back about what deserved to be in there and how anything else should be considered "3'rd party" – maybe that's how arclight ended up in that category, I have no idea
[05:01:36] skd5aner: jpabq: but, good work – glad to see someone working on more themes for 0.25 :)
[05:02:16] jpabq: skd5aner, yeah, I am going to have to think about it. I have put so much time into it, that I would like to maintain some control over it's "look".
[05:03:10] skd5aner: well, like most things in the repository, the primary creator/owner generally has historically had a lot of say about what changes do and do not apply to their pieces of work...
[05:04:11] skd5aner: that said, I'm more in the camp that once it's in the repository, anyone should be able make reasonable edits/additions who has commit access... but with themes it seems to be a bit more territorial, understandbly so (since it's more art than anything)
[05:05:38] skd5aner: anyway – let me know what conclusion you guys come to prior to 0.25, so that I don't neglect mentioning it and giving you credit if that's the route you take
[05:05:51] jpabq: I agree
[05:06:15] jpabq: does this work: http://snoopy.dyndns.org/Steppes-video-browser.jpg  ?
[05:07:18] jpabq: http://snoopy.dyndns.org/Steppes-video-editor.jpg
[05:07:30] skd5aner: no, 404's
[05:07:49] jpabq: Ah, I think I have it setup for https only
[05:08:04] jpabq: https://snoopy.dyndns.org/Steppes-video-editor.jpg
[05:08:42] skd5aner: jpabq: here's another option – http://imagebin.org/
[05:09:42] jpabq: skd5aner, thanks, I will look at that. I am leery of the terms-of-service of some of those sites.
[05:10:30] skd5aner: pretty basic here – http://imagebin.org/index.php?page=disclaimer
[05:10:44] jpabq: http://imagebin.org/200698
[05:11:17] skd5aner: ah, nice
[05:11:35] jpabq: http://imagebin.org/200699
[05:11:53] skd5aner: "Whores Don't Make That Much"
[05:12:37] jpabq: http://imagebin.org/200700
[05:13:19] jpabq: http://imagebin.org/200701
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[05:13:57] jpabq: http://imagebin.org/200702
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[05:14:38] jpabq: http://imagebin.org/200703
[05:21:11] gigem: Captain_Murdoch: see http://pastebin.com/vW8uPhum for my "git branch -v -v" output.
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[06:34:59] sphery: jpabq: one easy place to put a screenshot of Steppes: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Themes
[06:41:04] sphery: skd5aner: Just a bit before you guys were talking, we began the next step toward what we had started with Arclight a while back--the idea of moving all themes out of MythTV's "only accessible by a few devs" repos and into repos on which theme authors (and contributors in a "theme team") can have push/pull and admin type control. It's taken us longer to get here than we thought it would when Arclight "moved out", but ...
[06:41:10] sphery: ... https://github.com/MythTV-Themes shows you the idea of where we're going. Each is a separate repo, and we're allowing authors administrative control (including allowing other contributors) of their repo. The next step (which is likely to occur before 0.25) is going to be the removal of MythTV/myththemes repository (as you'll note Mythbuntu and Childish--and all their history are in MythTV-Themes).
[06:41:19] sphery: so, funny timing for your question :)
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[08:17:21] Beirdo: !seen mousey
[08:17:21] MythLogBot: mousey was last seen 28 days 11 hours 9 minutes 53 seconds ago
[08:17:36] Beirdo: bum
[08:18:00] Beirdo: I hope he gets my email :)
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[09:43:55] jya: sphery gigem : I was thinking… If we want to have by default livetv using the opposite order as the recorder priority. Provided when the card created that the priority for both are equal. What about simply changing how the weight operate? so recording priority weight are in increasing order (1 > 2), while livetv is decreasing order (1 < 2).
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[10:35:00] jya: any sed expert here? how do I put a carriage return in a replacement pattern?
[10:36:08] jya: \r or \n do nothing but add a r or n
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[10:54:59] xavierh: jya: in case you did not find out: s/pattern/\\n/g
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[11:38:23] jya: xavierh: I tried that.. didn't work for me
[11:42:52] jya: going to use space instead.. should work
[11:45:01] ElmerFudd: jya: otherwise I think it shold be pretty simple with awk – something along the lines of BEGIN { RS="[\r\n]"; ORS="" } {print}
[11:46:12] jya: I'm trying to run a set of patch on an existing source code. So i use sed , I wanted to properly format hte replacement code, using carriage retrn
[11:58:19] stuartm: jpabq: I like
[11:59:00] stuartm: jpabq: you get Midsomer Murders in the US?
[12:01:26] stuartm: jpabq: you undersold it, that's very good, better than you lead me to believe ;)
[12:03:03] stuartm: not so sure that my new theme is distinctive enough now
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[12:08:09] stuartm: the transparent grey box look is played out by too many other themes (mythbuntu/Arclight/Graphite/Steppes) and I don't make use of any of the funky buttonlist effects, use of artwork is understated, there's not much if anything that it offers which another theme doesn't
[12:10:05] stuartm: on the other hand, some of my more radical ideas – http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/printpress.png or http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/bellatrix_actual.png are too stylised for a wide audience
[12:10:58] jya: ElmerFudd: seems that being able to escape characters in the replacement pattern is only avaible with GNU sed
[12:11:14] stuartm: so maybe I should persue http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/filmstrip_browser.png or http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/concept_guide2.png
[12:13:04] stuartm: or do I even dare to put it to a vote on the -user list? ... Maybe not
[12:14:34] jya: while on the subject of the Watching Recordings screen… what is the "Watch List" entry.. I never understood what it's for
[12:17:40] stuartm: jya: it's supposed to order recordings so that the ones you are most likely to want are at the top of the list, it looks at past behaviour – how often you watch a series, when you last watched an episode, how quickly it's likely to expire if you don't watch it, when the next recording of an episode will be and probably some other stuff
[12:18:53] jya: ah… funny, because I can't recall watching any of the show listed there in years :)
[12:18:58] stuartm: bjm added it to make his viewing decisions for him and to ensure that he got to watch everything he wanted to see before it expired
[12:19:37] jya: ok
[12:19:48] jya: i'll need to pay more attention to it and see how well it works...
[12:19:50] stuartm: jya: it's weighted most by the order of auto-expiry
[12:20:01] jya: i see
[12:21:03] stuartm: so if you've got really old recordings then those will appear at or near the top of the list, the feature doesn't work so well if you have lots of disk space or tend to hoarde stuff as recordings instead of exporting it to mythvideo
[12:22:36] stuartm: if you've just watched an episode of 'ABC' then other episodes of 'ABC' will be moved down the list a little, since it assumes you'll want to watch something different next
[12:23:12] stuartm: it was very much based around Bruce's viewing habits and preferences
[12:38:57] jya: thanks stuartm for taking the time to explain that to me… sounds like a great idea to start with. would be interesting to come up with a way to get it to learn more about your behaviour automatically...
[12:39:07] jya: well above me skillset 'm afraid
[12:39:53] jya: ElmerFudd: for reference: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1421478/ho . . . in-a-bsd-sed
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[13:24:33] xavierh: jya: echo "aba" | sed "s/b/\n/g"
[13:24:42] xavierh: jya: no need to double the \
[13:24:58] jya: xavierh: this only works with GNU sed
[13:25:25] jya: not standard / BSD sed (which is what I have to use, it's for the mac build)
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[13:33:47] wagnerrp: jya: who needs google when we have stack overflow... :)
[13:34:21] jya: that's true… I have found SO the most useful resource when it comes to programming lately..
[13:34:49] jya: Often I start typing a question in SO, by the time I've finished writing it, before even I submit it the answer is suggested on the right hand side
[13:35:44] wagnerrp: heh
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[14:06:23] Captain_Murdoch: skd5aner, the goal is to get most themes out of the official repository. We're doing away with the MythTV/myththemes repository in favor of moving themes into the community-supported MythTV-Themes section of github. That's where Steppes is now. jpabq has exclusive access to modify it, it is not owned by MythTV. MythTV-Themes is just a place for themers to share out their themes and grant others access to update them if they ch
[14:06:23] Captain_Murdoch: oose. Anyone who wants to make a theme available for others to work on or just have a git repository to store their theme can put a theme in MythTV-Themes if they contact sphery. He's coordinating it right now.
[14:07:01] Captain_Murdoch: and /me notices that sphery replied in the middle of the night saying somewhat the same thing. :)
[14:07:57] wagnerrp: this is just a location for development, not where the theme chooser draws from?
[14:08:36] stuartm: the aim is to shift the burden of maintaining the themes away the devs who in most cases were not the ones who wrote the themes in the first place – if the community believes a theme is worth maintaining then they'll step up to help and if not well ...
[14:09:36] wagnerrp: Captain_Murdoch: is this in place of the previously planned web application that would have allowed authors to upload and manage themes?
[14:13:53] wagnerrp: i ask in reference to setting up a commit hook, or perhaps a nightly job, that would run through the available themes and automatically update the contents of the theme chooser
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[14:18:08] Captain_Murdoch: wagnerrp, no, I still want to have a website where themers can go to 'register' a theme for the downloader. this would set the theme up for automatic packaging for the MythTV versions that were supported by the theme.
[14:18:45] stuartm: Captain_Murdoch: we should start requiring a compatibility string in themeinfo.xml, something that indicates what major version of MythTV the theme will work with, most themes are not backwards or forwards compatible
[14:18:57] Captain_Murdoch: I planned on setting up a cron to run the packaging script once a day to pickup updates to themes. can't rely on a commit hook for all since some themes might live outside repos in tarballs or elsewhere.
[14:19:28] wagnerrp: stuartm: why not just follow the existing branching structure of the mythtv repo?
[14:20:02] stuartm: I'd happily tag a 0.24 release of Terra for example and the chooser would offer that to 0.24 users and the 0.25 version to 0.25 users
[14:20:20] stuartm: wagnerrp: assumes that all themes will be in the github repo and not submitted from outside of it
[14:20:29] Captain_Murdoch: stuartm, yeah, sounds good. that's the reason that I didn't just push everything in 'master' to '0.24' when that was released and I won't do for 0.25 either unless I'm told a theme is compatible with 0.25. in most cases the easiest way for that is for the themer to make a 0.25 branch in their repo and let me know.
[14:20:54] Captain_Murdoch: we do have 0.24 and master Terra currently. 0.24 comes out of the fixes branch.
[14:21:17] Captain_Murdoch: I've been recommending themers do the same thing on their repos, create branches and branch when we do if their theme is compatible.
[14:21:39] wagnerrp: stuartm: oh, i thought Captain_Murdoch meant themes in the mythtv-themes project would be automatically downloaded and bundled with the release tarballs
[14:22:16] Captain_Murdoch: not everything in MythTV-Themes has to be packaged, we might have an 'Archive' area of older themes like metallurgy in case people want to bring those up to date.
[14:22:45] Captain_Murdoch: and things in MythTv-Themes might not be ready for packaging, they might be works in progress.
[14:22:53] stuartm: wagnerrp: I mean themes from third parties who chose not to make their themes available via a public git repo but only in tarballs
[14:23:04] Captain_Murdoch: so I see the 'registration' website as separate from MythTV-Themes
[14:23:46] Captain_Murdoch: currently I repackage several themes from tarballs out on the net. most are in repos, but a few are not.
[14:24:37] stuartm: IMHO we need some checks within mythtv to refuse to show incompatible local themes in the selection, so that users with a really old install of metallurgy etc cannot select it or if they are using it now they get switched back to the default instead
[14:25:20] Captain_Murdoch: yeah, having supported version in the themeinfo.xml would help that. that way when a user upgrades Myth, we don't let them continue to use a theme that's broken in the new version.
[14:25:40] stuartm: right
[14:25:44] stuartm: I can add that
[14:26:07] ** Captain_Murdoch has to go afk for a while. **
[14:29:43] ** wagnerrp wishes firefox 'paste and go' would obey what you have highlighted **
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[14:39:53] wagnerrp: if were switching from github to our own local repo, does anyone know what that means in regards to git hooks?
[14:56:03] wagnerrp: Beirdo: whenever you wake up.. ^^^
[14:56:14] wagnerrp: specifically with respect to trac
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[15:05:21] jya: stuarta: I've pushed the build script for Mac Lion and XCode 4… I'll try to rework on it so it uses Qt's own development package.
[15:05:48] jya: I've literally spent days looking at my computer building qt only to find it fails after an hour and restarting again...
[15:05:55] jya: what a @#%!$%@ shit that was
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[16:33:04] stichnot: I just noticed that when I start playback with closed captions on, the musical note character renders as a different character. Go into the subtitles menu and reselect, and it's fixed. Exit playback and restart, and the problem is back. I suspect one of the recent ascii-related commits.
[16:55:40] gigem: jya: i prefer the meaning of schedorder and livetvorder be consistent. i relaize that makes it difficult for the default livetv ordering to be the reverse of scheduling order as some, maybe most, would prefer, so i wouldn't veto a change in meaning if there's consensus to do so.
[17:01:36] danielk22: jya: I've update the 10377 patch
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[17:25:00] stichnot: never mind, I'm an idiot... (had a .srt file left over from mythccextractor/ccextractor testing, which was being used instead)
[17:38:34] MythBuild: build #402 of master-osx-snow-leopard is complete: Failure [failed shell_2] Build details are at http://code.mythtv.org/buildbot/builders/mast . . . d/builds/402 blamelist: Stuart Morgan <smorgan@mythtv.org >
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[20:23:37] gigem: should invisible channels be viewable in live tv? my initial reaction is no since we prevent them from being used for scheduling and from showing up in the epg and searches.
[20:23:42] gigem: in the interest of full disclosure, i have to admit i have a biased opinion. i have two channels that are tunable by my cable card tuner because of drm even though they are in clear qam and are tunable by my qam tuners.
[20:23:47] gigem: in order to not have to use special options like --remove-new-channels with mythfilldatabase, i simply mark those those channels as invisible on the cable card videosource. preventing live tv from viewing invisible channels avoids trying to tune an untunable channel and having to manually switch cards.
[20:32:09] sphery: gigem: users are constantly asking us to change it to not allow invisible channels in Live TV to make it more consistent with recordings, since a) users were confused, and b) users are abusing "visible" to mean "keep this channel so I don't have to delete it again next time I rescan, but don't allow it to be used" (since we don't have an alternative at this point) (see http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/6714 + ...
[20:32:15] sphery: ... http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/2193 + http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/7217 + ...)
[20:32:22] sphery: so I say go for it
[20:32:39] sphery: those who want "not visible in browse mode, but tunable if I want to" can use channel groups
[20:33:53] sphery: (and since we have at least 3 different tickets related to it, it's probably even a bug fix :)
[20:35:07] sphery: that said, trac is painfully slow, right now. not sure if they're doing some work on it (but searching the archive for ticket number shows them – http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/engine? . . . ;list=mythtv )
[20:39:00] sphery: and, actually, at that point, we could even change the meaning of visible (and translations and if desired even eventually change column name) to mean "disabled" so that most users who use it are using it right :)
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[20:47:36] gigem: sphery: the patch was already done. :) i just wanted to check since it could be a contentious issue. you and i make 2 "for". i'll wait for others to chime in and maybe even post on -developers before commiting. fyi, my patch also fixes yet another place where livetvorder isn't honored. we've got waaaaaay too different code paths to decide which tuner to use.
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[20:49:05] ** Seeker` thinks that invisible channels should be just that; not viewable **
[20:49:47] gigem: danielk22: i tried your patch some and it appears to work. browse mode seemed more sluggish, though. i also had a frontend segfault and a backend segfault, but i didn't have core dumps enabled, so i can't say if they were because of the patch or not.
[20:50:01] wagnerrp: sphery: why are 'invisible' channels not considered 'disabled' channels anyway?
[20:51:02] gigem: wagnerrp: i guess that's another way of asking the question. they pretty much are disabled everywhere except live tv.
[20:53:17] wagnerrp: i mean i actually thought that was their intended purpose
[20:53:23] wagnerrp: what other use would that option be?
[20:54:07] stuartm: gigem: this change makes them untunable even if you enter the number directly? I ask because that's the only bit which is currently possible with 'hidden' channels, they are hidden from the guide and browse mode already
[20:55:18] stuartm: sphery: do you know if channel groups can be passworded?
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[21:08:11] gigem: stuartm: yes, it makes them untunable by entering the channel number directly.
[21:08:16] gigem: there is another way to get put on an invisible channel, though. that's how i noticed the issue in the first place. channel 504 is a clear qam channel, but is not tunable by my cable card tuner due to drm. i marked channel 504 invisible on the cable card source.
[21:08:20] gigem: in my livetvordering testing, i've been trying lots of things. say i'm on channel 504 on a clear qam tuner and then exit live tv. if the cable card tuner is the preferred live tv tuner, i first get put there when re-entering livetv. tv then says, oh, you were on chanid 2504 when you left tv, that's channel 504 and there's a channel 504 on your current (cable card) source, so i'll switch to that channel for you.
[21:08:25] gigem: my patch keeps tv from matching the cable card channel 504, so it now switches to a clear qam tuner to restore the previous channel. i suppose it's arguable that tv shouldn't assume two channels with the same channum are the same, but that's the live tv has done it for ages.
[21:10:10] stuartm: gigem: ahh, yeah I didn't think of that case
[21:13:35] sphery: stuartm: no password on channel groups, yet... perhaps as part of the multiuser changes?
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[21:16:20] sphery: FWIW, though, I see no reason why anyone would want a channel that's tunable in Live TV, but not for recordings. Channel groups handle all the other functionality--of being able to show or not show the channel's listings in EPG/browse mode. So, unless there's a good reason for a Live TV only channel, I don't see why we shouldn't just turn visible into disable. (And, the consistency benefit, on its own, is enough reason that there should be a ...
[21:16:26] sphery: ... /really/ good reason to have a channel that's only tunable in Live TV.)
[21:17:11] sphery: should be a really good reason = "would have to be a really good reason"
[21:17:34] sphery: (to argue for keeping it)
[21:17:40] stuartm: sphery: I know in the past some users have used the facility to hide adult channels from the lineup while keeping them tunable
[21:20:30] stuartm: I don't have kids and what passes for 'adult' on FTA tv is pretty tame by comparison with what's online, but it's one fairly legit usage of the current behaviour even if it's abusing the feature slightly
[21:21:22] sphery: so the kids just check the Live TV recordings every day?  :) Yeah. I think the whole multiuser thing needs to be done right (at least get the skeleton in place--that you were working on--so we can do it incrementally).
[21:23:34] sphery: I, too, have no kids and no adult channels (FCC is making sure that I never see anything which might offend anyone), so I may not be best for judging that reason--but I would like it to be done properly if we're going to "support" that use. Besides, we don't hide any of the rest of it (the recordings, themselves, from Live TV or the recording history (which is visible in Previously Recorded) and ...)
[21:26:19] stuartm: recorgin groups, including the livetv group can be password protected, ok not really that secure to a teenager but good enough for younger kids
[21:27:38] stuartm: the recording history can also be manually expunged, although that's a bit of a stretch :)
[21:30:58] sphery: yeah, just saying it's a lot of work to properly clean up after the fact--and would be easy for users to make mistakes in the process--so it would be better to start getting the multiuser stuff in place to better support use in households with kids (or even with multiple adult users)
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[21:31:35] sphery: that said, I'll let someone else decide whether that's good enough reason to keep visible = "only tunable in Live TV"
[21:31:53] sphery: until we get multiuser support
[21:32:50] stuartm: I agree entirely with all of that, I'm just putting forward another point of view – not my view, but a view all the same :)
[21:42:02] danielk22: gigem: The browsing itself shouldn't be any more sluggish than the typical "Browse All" experience. The channel changes do check more stuff I'd expect them to be a little bit slower.
[21:43:21] danielk22: gigem: I haven't checked for thread-safety yet, but I'd be surprised if it caused any segfaults on the frontend. It's impossible for it to cause segfaults on the backend.
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[22:07:57] gigem: danielk22: it was the browsing that was sluggish. i expect the actual channel changes to be slow. sometimes when starting to browse, it would take several seconds for the first channel to show. once browsing was started, sometimes it would take several seconds for the next channel to show after pressing up or down, and other times it would be very quick.
[22:09:41] stuartm: it's never been exactly quick, something slows it down more than it should
[22:10:31] danielk22: gigem: ok, then it is because we check all the recorders in the IsTunableOn() loop, I can add a short-circuit during browsing.
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[23:07:14] skd5aner: gigem: just giving you another opinion from someone who actually uses live tv regularly – I think it should be consistent between what channels are available for live TV and recordings. In fact, any other way just makes it harder to leverage Live TV imho
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[23:26:28] jya: gigem: I certainly don't want invisible channels to be visible in LiveTV… Right now after my scan, all duplicated channels , I mark them as invisible. Makes no sense to me to have a different channel number between recordings and livetv
[23:27:14] jya: sphery: I totally disagree with that statement.. And I've never read anything about people saying they want that. And I sure don't
[23:28:20] jya: I like that invisible means de-facto disabled
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[23:32:09] jya: ok.. I've finished catching with last night comments. And gigem sphery I'm confused : you want to change the behaviour of the meaning of "visible" to something that is already what I am seeing. An invisible channel currently is for all purpose disable. It does show in liveTV for me (though I've never tried to tune to them as I only use browse mode to switch channels)
[23:38:11] jya: who runs the mac autobuild machine ?
[23:40:11] wagnerrp: stuarta
[23:44:59] jya: i wonder what xcode he is using on this 10.6 machine...
[23:45:38] jya: because I tried xcode 4.2 ,4.3 and 3.2 and never saw that error
[23:46:33] jya: skd5aner: I totally agree with you there… and I often start recording from LiveTV too
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