:: #mythtv

Daily chat history

Current users (88):

aloril, andreax, Anduin_, Anssi, anykey_, Beirdo, brfransen, brtb, CaCtus491, Captain_Murdoch, cattelan, cesman, Chutt, clever, coling, Cougar, damaltor, danielk22, Dave123, davide, dblain, dekarl, dlblog, ElmerFudd, foxbuntu, ghoti, gigem_, gregL, GreyFoxx, highzeth, J-e-f-f-A, j-rod|afk, jams, jarle_, jcarlos_, joe_, joki, jpabq, jpabq-, jpabq_, jstenback, justinh, jwhite, kenni, knightr, kormoc, kurre2, kwmonroe, laga_, mag0o, MavT, mgolisch, mike|3, mirage335, mrand, MythBuild, MythLogBot, mzanetti, noahric, peitolm, poptix, purserj, rhpot1991, rsiebert, Sash, skd5aner, Slasher`, Snow-Man, sphery, sraue, stichnot, stuarta, superm1, sutula, taylorr, TazzNZ, tgm4883, ThisNewGuy, tomimo, tris, ttomkins, Unhelpful, vallor, wagnerrp, wahrhaft, xris, zCougar, _charly_
Thursday, February 16th, 2012, 00:05 UTC
[00:05:40] danielk22: stichnot: Feel free to abandon, I'm pretty sure it's as you remember.
[00:08:14] Beirdo: Won't Fix, here we come!
[00:08:15] Beirdo: :)
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[00:15:08] MythBuild: build #649 of cppcheck-master is complete: Failure [failed git] Build details are at . . . r/builds/649 blamelist: Robert McNamara < >, Stuart Morgan < >
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[00:27:09] Beirdo: you managed to bork cppcheck? :)
[00:27:31] Beirdo: ahhh
[00:27:36] Beirdo: 502 on the git update
[00:27:54] Beirdo: MythBuild: force build cppcheck-master now, please.
[00:27:55] MythBuild: build forced [ETA 13m58s]
[00:27:55] MythBuild: I'll give a shout when the build finishes
[00:28:06] MythBuild: Hey! build cppcheck-master #650 is complete: Failure [failed git]
[00:28:06] MythBuild: Build details are at . . . r/builds/650
[00:28:38] Beirdo: WTF?
[00:29:03] sphery: oh, github is down, now
[00:29:16] Beirdo: parts of it, it seems
[00:29:18] sphery:
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[00:33:00] Beirdo: MythBuild: force build cppcheck-master now, please.
[00:33:01] MythBuild: build forced [ETA 13m58s]
[00:33:01] MythBuild: I'll give a shout when the build finishes
[00:33:13] Beirdo: github says git is green
[00:33:25] MythBuild: Hey! build cppcheck-master #651 is complete: Failure [failed git]
[00:33:25] MythBuild: Build details are at . . . r/builds/651
[00:33:33] Beirdo: lairs
[00:33:37] Beirdo: liars even
[00:38:16] kormoc: not anymore
[00:38:19] kormoc: it's cycling between
[00:38:24] kormoc: I did manage to pull before it died
[00:40:09] Beirdo: good thing we are thinking of putting myth's primary git repo onto alcor
[00:40:28] Beirdo: and making github a mirror
[00:42:15] Captain_Murdoch: stuartm, I think that metallurgy may have showed up again because of the server migration. I'll take a look at removing it again. I need to resync all the themes again as well. once we're fully back on our own server I'll setup an automated update.
[00:49:54] MythBuild: build #1872 of master-freebsd-64bit is complete: Failure [failed git] Build details are at . . . /builds/1872 blamelist: Robert McNamara < >, Stuart Morgan < >
[00:55:56] Captain_Murdoch: sphery, not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but the idea that things don't really get deleted when you tell them to could end up causing issues itself. I can see -users now... "why didn't I get any more free space, I just deleted 30 recordings." answer: "well, they're not really deleted, they're only queued for deletion which will happen X days later."
[00:58:51] Captain_Murdoch: and it sounds like this would remove the ability to forcibly delete from the Deleted group. I like the simplicity though. if we could set the autoexpire interval down to near-immediate it might cure the 'in use by previewgen' type issues, but also give users the flexibility to delete ~now or in X days. perhaps X days + 5 minutes. so user sets to 0 and it's deleted quickly, but set to 1 and it's deleted in 24 hours, etc.. (tha
[00:58:51] Captain_Murdoch: t's if I got the concept right)
[01:03:27] xris: Captain_Murdoch: only ftp stuff got moved back to alcor so far.
[01:03:42] xris: I was hoping for more people to tell me the web stuff looked good enough on the new box.
[01:03:52] xris: but maybe Beirdo and I should just try to get all of that done tonight.
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[01:36:51] wagnerrp: dblain: you around?
[01:37:08] wagnerrp: the mediarenderer is no longer being started in mythfrontend
[01:37:54] wagnerrp: its being started up before the code to populate the address pool
[01:38:10] wagnerrp: so ServerPool returns an error when it is told to listen to nothing
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[01:38:31] wagnerrp: the MediaRenderer is actually being started before the connection to the database
[01:42:06] Captain_Murdoch: xris, right, thought so re: ftp.
[01:43:24] Captain_Murdoch: stuartm, I fixed the metallurgy issue. I had to remove it from one local directory that gets synced up to the themes webserver where the index .zip is generated. first time I've had to remove a theme so I missed that in my original 'fix'. the theme is no longer visible in the theme downloader.
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[01:45:38] gigem_: sphery, danielk22: regarding your delete idea from earlier, i think is the only code change to make it work, though, it should possibly check for the LiveTV recgroup too. That would just leave a schema update to set AutoExpireInsteadOfDelete=1 and possibly set DeletedMaxAge=1 and cleanup the settings screen.
[01:45:48] gigem_: fyi, there is a related bug i discovered while testing the above patch. if a program is in the Deleted recgroup and is still marked as in-use when the user tried to delete it, the delete is silently ignored.
[01:47:18] sphery: gigem_: is the recording marked as deletepending?
[01:48:09] sphery: I was thinking that DeletedMaxAge would be redefined such that 0 = "immediate" (meaning next autoexpirer run) and we'd add a new one (like -1) for "when required"
[01:48:23] sphery: and AutoExpireInsteadOfDelete would just go away
[01:48:37] gigem_: i don't think so, but i didn't check.
[01:48:46] sphery: I'd much rather keep the settings widgets if we keep the setting
[01:49:43] sphery: and as far as deleting deleted recordings, I figure we could set deletepending to a different value (i.e. 2) to mean "delete immediately"
[01:49:55] gigem_: sphery: re DeletedMaxAge, fine but that would require bigger code changes. i was looking for the absolute minimum we could get by with.
[01:50:16] sphery: and if you really need "immediate" delete instead of "next autoexpirer run", we could just send a message that tells the expirer to run, now
[01:50:43] gigem_: that's if we wanted it for 0.25. for 0.26, anything goes.
[01:51:16] sphery: yeah, I think if all users had to wait a day for files to be removed, they'd complain, which is why I was thinking post 0.25
[01:54:41] gigem_: they can always change to the Deleted group and delete from there. that already is an immediate delete.
[01:56:40] sphery: true
[01:57:44] skd5aner: I wouldn;t complain...
[01:57:55] skd5aner: again, I like the feature... for me, it's set to 3 days...
[01:58:09] ** skd5aner plays the roll of "user who speaks up at the sound of a feature being ripped out" **
[01:58:13] skd5aner: mwhahahaha
[02:00:42] skd5aner: gigem_: and, that's what I do when I need to do that, but rarely ever do I need to delete something immediately
[02:02:02] skd5aner: How feasible would it be to simply count anything in the deleted group in the free space calculations? Yea, it won't match with df, but at least users won't be like "why doesn't my free space increase immediately after a delete"? that'd be similiar to how the recycle bin handles it in Windows
[02:02:33] skd5aner: assuming that's the primary argument against it... people "deleting" something but the free space not changing until it auto-expires
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[02:11:01] gigem_: skd5aner: very feasible, don't know how easy, but probably not too hard. anyway, i doubt any of this will be done for 0.25. i mainly wanted to see if we could easily get rid of the "can't delete" misfeature.
[02:12:24] skd5aner: yea – gotcha – I just know in the past that when I discovered a regression around it that most devs didn't notice because they didn't use the autoexpire instead of delete feature – so just wanted to let you know that I'm happy to provide you any feedback as I've used it for years ever since it went in
[02:12:53] skd5aner: gigem_: of course from here on out, I'll wait for you to solicit any feedback if you need it :)
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[02:39:29] gigem_: skd5aner: sorry, been busy debugging the problem i wanted to look at tonight. no problem, i don't mind hearing input from educated users. i still reserve the right to ignore it, though. going back to debugging now.
[02:51:12] skd5aner: gigem_: heh – and I'm not one to get offended by that anyway... happy debugging :)
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[03:17:26] gigem_: taylorr: appears to fix the osd position issue on finished and overtime recordings for me. there appears to be a race condition or logic error because the frames reported in the DONE_RECORDING message is -1, most likely because the recorder was already torn down. since the actual seconds is available, i just pass that in instead of frames/fps.
[03:18:46] gigem_: there could very well be other latent bugs because totalFrames doesn't get set, but i'll leave that for later. also, what is the difference between totalLength and totalDuration? should totalDuration be sett to when a recording finishes?
[03:20:41] taylorr: gigem_: totalLength and totalDuration are just derived from different locations – all that code needs to cleaned up for better readability
[03:21:02] taylorr: does this fix apply to 0.24-fixes too?
[03:25:01] taylorr: gigem_: patch looks reasonable and jives with what I'm planning on in the future
[04:01:32] taylorr: gigem_: here's a patch which adds the ability for the recorder to save the total frames recorded and the player to query them ->
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[04:38:13] MythBuild: build #1873 of master-freebsd-64bit is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at . . . /builds/1873
[04:45:27] gigem_: taylorr: re my patch for 0.24, only the livetv part is applicable. the watching/recording part calls SetLength(seconds) just like my patch. i didn't realize that until i looked.
[04:46:37] gigem_: re your patch, i'll leave that up to you. as long as it fixes bugs and isn't high risk, it's still ok for 0.25, imho.
[04:55:31] Beirdo: MythBuild: force build cppcheck-master now, dangit
[04:55:32] MythBuild: build forced [ETA 13m58s]
[04:55:32] MythBuild: I'll give a shout when the build finishes
[05:07:30] MythBuild: build #653 of cppcheck-master is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at . . . r/builds/653
[05:09:51] Beirdo: yay
[05:11:43] taylorr: gigem_: heh, might want to git blame that one :)
[05:12:26] taylorr: anytime we can remove code with frames/fps I'm all for it
[05:16:17] jya: whao… 774ceca6cb34c9fbc878c9685e3e01b184747796 got to be the fastest time ever between report and fix
[05:18:58] wagnerrp: nah, there have been a couple on the order of a few minutes
[05:19:48] wagnerrp: i think one or two actually from iamlindoro
[05:28:18] Beirdo: I've had a couple under half an hour :)
[05:28:58] Beirdo: pure dumb luck occasionally
[05:29:12] Beirdo: someone reports something I was already fixing, etc
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[05:40:07] stichnot: taylorr: I hope we can still keep frame-accurate editing :)
[05:58:57] taylorr: stichnot: yes, correcting the position/duration information shouldn't have any effect on frame-accurate editing – it's really just cosmetic
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[06:00:02] taylorr: stichnot: btw, welcome aboard! :)
[06:09:51] stichnot: taylorr: thanks!
[06:23:55] jya: has anyone attempted to write a MythUI XML editor ?
[06:40:36] MythBuild: build #684 of master-vista-mingw-32bit is complete: Exception [exception git] Build details are at . . . t/builds/684 blamelist: Robert McNamara < >
[06:46:47] wagnerrp: its been mentioned, frequently
[06:47:01] wagnerrp: but i dont believe anyone has ever actually made a start at one
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[08:54:59] stichnot: The discussion of deletes and in-use recordings reminded me of a bug I meant to look into. If I start watching on one frontend, then pause on that frontend and watch the remainder on another frontend, and I have EndOfRecordingExitPrompt=true, then at the end of playback it gets into a loop of trying to ask me if I want to delete but also notifying me that the program can't be deleted...
[08:55:01] stichnot: ...because it is in use by another frontend. Will this just become a non-issue after the proposed changes are made?
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[09:29:11] stuarta: sphery: OpenGL ES is primarily for embedded systems, desktops should be using full blown OpenGL
[09:33:55] wagnerrp: tell SuSe that
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[09:54:00] stuarta: well if it works
[09:54:08] ** stuarta finally finished reading scrollback **
[10:17:12] jya: with GPL license, can you make a code GPL only within the boundary of usage within a particular project. Here mythtv? e.g. source code can only be used within mythtv?
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[10:49:31] Captain_Murdoch: pretty sure that the GPL doesn't allow that, it would require a different license, and once it's out there under the GPL, it's too late for current code, only future changes/code would be covered.
[11:04:47] sphery: /tb
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[11:11:49] jya: Captain_Murdoch: I was only considering this for new code...
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[12:18:58] knightr: stuartm, no problem... I would put a warning where I would document this to warn them that it's not a replacement for a proper locale config... Thank you!
[12:25:02] stuartm: jpabq: there seems to be an issue with the top and bottom of characters being clipped in master, I only noticed it when using larger pixel sizes and different fonts to those used in Terra
[12:28:48] stuartm: << Bounding box debug enabled, it's more than large enough for the text and it doesn't seem to matter even if I increase the vertical height to twice that size, the top of the R and bottoms of the g are clipped
[12:29:41] stuartm: also evident with most capital letters, lower case i (dotted with a semi-circle)
[12:30:30] stuartm: some fonts aren't affected so badly, but I can spot it in most e.g. Droid Sans
[12:31:35] stuartm: in that example the font is Junction and pixelsize is 52 (again, doesn't seem to matter what the size but the smaller it gets the harder it is to spot the clipping)
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[13:24:38] danielk22: jya: You can not add restrictions to the GPL, you can only remove restrictions or give up potential claims. For instance, the "linking exception" just means the authors of a library preclude themselves from making the claim later on that a program linking to their library is a derivative work.
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[15:03:19] stichnot: stuartm, jpabq: font clipping was happening all the time in captions/subtitles. I couldn't figure it out, seemed like a Qt bug. markk couldn't figure it out either I guess, leading to the PAD_WIDTH and PAD_HEIGHT code.
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[16:06:44] jpabq_: stuartm: as a quick test, could you try adding <extraleading>5</extraleading> to that text area?
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[16:38:27] stuartm: jpabq_: that fixes it
[16:39:55] jpabq_: stuartm, hmmm. The top and the bottom?
[16:40:47] stuartm: ah, not the bottom
[16:41:55] jpabq_: Makes me think either Qt has a little bug, or the font definition is not quite right. I could add an extra 5% of "space" around the area reported by Qt. I wonder if that would mess up things like <scroll>
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[16:56:30] jpabq_: Adding extra space around the rectangle that Qt returns, does result in <scroll>ed text starting outside the designated area.
[17:06:24] stuartm: funny, but Lawrence's occasional rants about a supposed NIH attitude amongst MythTV devs seems in fact to be a case of NIBM (Not invented by me) on his part – creating new single purposes classes instead of extending existing ones, refusing to conform to coding standards because he thinks they are silly and then attacking US for not accepting his work
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[17:22:15] Captain_Murdoch: so, do we make an official statement concerning Torc on the -users mailing list or just let users speculate and spread rumors? we've already got a "so, has anybody tried it yet" post which could lead to our first support question being "Are you _actually_ running MythTV?" and then "Wait, you thought you could switch back and forth between the official version and a forked version while using the same database?"
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[17:27:55] jpabq_: stuartm: Looks like Justice defines leading as zero. If you have multiple lines, the text actually overlaps.
[17:28:31] stuartm: Junction?
[17:28:39] jpabq_: Sorry, yes.
[17:29:13] stuartm: << Just to be sure we're talking about the same font
[17:29:20] jpabq_: Yup
[17:35:10] wagnerrp: Captain_Murdoch: i messaged iamlindoro this morning, suggesting he either respond to that, or give me something to relay, if nothing else to stave off the speculation the -users list is so prone to
[17:35:31] jpabq_: stuartm, I am currently not seeing a way to automatically "fix" the problem without breaking it for other situations. <extraleading> allows the themer to adjust the space above a line. I could add a <extratrailing> to allow the themer to adjust the space below the (last?) line.
[17:35:36] ** Captain_Murdoch goes the opposite direction and forks off LegacyTV from MythTV 0.21-fixes, emails Phoronix anonymously, and then proceeds with a bunch of commits to strip out all code designed to support hardware newer than 5 years old. Next patch in the works.... Restoring Qt2 support. **
[17:35:50] wagnerrp: for what its worth, while they're not trying to hide that other repo, they had no intention to "go public" with it
[17:36:07] wagnerrp: someone else posted the news blurb to phoronix
[17:37:03] stuartm: jpabq_: damn
[17:37:25] Captain_Murdoch: speculation, but sounds like someone who's either in the know or talked directly with mark or iamlindoro. someone with an attitude as well given the wording.
[17:38:15] jpabq_: stuartm, I can automatically add extra space around the area that Qt says is needed for the 'text', but that results in <scroll> exceeding the area by that much. I know scroll is not used much, but...
[17:38:16] Captain_Murdoch: if it's just a fork for non-public use, then why change the name.
[17:39:57] stuartm: jpabq_: do we have access to the leading value from the font? Could we not apply such a fix only where the font might require it? (sorry, font metrics aren't my strong suit)
[17:39:58] dekarl-too: whats wrong with giving a development project a cool name?
[17:40:53] stuartm: dekarl-too: it's not a project? It's Mark's personal branch and he's given no indication otherwise at this stage
[17:41:07] stuartm: except, that is, to rename it
[17:41:13] Captain_Murdoch: cool name on the repo doesn't mean much unless it's s/mythtv/torc/ all over the source code. the binary is still mythfrontend/mythbackend/etc. otherwise
[17:42:10] wagnerrp: Captain_Murdoch: on the contrary, i dont think anyone "in the know" would have included airplay as a "popular feature"
[17:42:19] jpabq_: stuartm: Yes. QFont is reporting the leading for Junction as zero. I was hoping the problem, was that QFont reported it at a negative number for that font, then I could deal with it. But what do we do with zero?
[17:42:52] dekarl-too: well, mark is doing something. When I do something its a project :) I might create a fork so I can develop my http-iptv-recorder and call it InternetTV (to differentiate from plain old IPTV) or add player/web integration and call the development branch hbbTV... its just a name thats better then foo or bar
[17:42:58] wagnerrp: considering only the OSX bot has the necessary pre-reqs to build it, and you need to set an environmental variable to even enable it
[17:43:15] Captain_Murdoch: wagnerrp, I just don't see the comments like "years worth of unmaintainable and legacy code" and "prevents MythTV from becoming a fully modern project" as coming from your average user.
[17:43:49] wagnerrp: maybe
[17:43:56] Captain_Murdoch: dekarl-too, but that's only a directory name. the binaries are still myth*
[17:44:03] jpabq_: stuartm, let me looks some more. Maybe QFontMetrics has the info in another way...
[17:44:06] ** Malard points to #torc and #torc-dev **
[17:44:22] dekarl-too: uhh, you're spoiling the fun with facts
[17:44:33] Malard: :P
[17:52:27] stichnot: jpabq_, stuartm: please let me know if you find a good solution to the font problem, as it would be useful for text subtitles as well.
[17:54:17] jpabq_: stichnot, stuartm the Qt documentation warns hat some font designers break the "ascent" and "descent" values — the font may say that has a certain height, but it is really taller. Unfortunately, they don't give any hints on how to deal with that.
[17:55:50] stichnot: for subtitles, there were also problems with the width calculation that led to clipping
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[18:01:39] stuartm: jpabq_: hmm, maybe worth asking on a QT list/form?
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[18:13:29] stichnot: Is there any good reason for our own, non third party, code to contain assert() calls?
[18:19:07] stuartm: no, although they sometimes get used for debugging and are accidentally left in
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[18:26:17] stuartm: davide: thanks for that last commit, it had been driving me mad but I never found the right moment to work on a fix
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[18:28:28] jpabq_: stuartm, stichnot: Interesting. I define a font with Junction and a pixel size of 100. If I ask QFontMetrics what the "ascent" is, it says 75, and the "descent" is 24, plus 1 for the "baseline" and you get the 100 requested. If I ask QFontMetrics how big a '?' is, it indicates that it needs 82 pixels *above* the baseline, to draw it. If I ask about a 'g', it says it needs 28 pixels below the baseline to draw it.
[18:28:58] stichnot: stuartm: That's what I thought. Unless someone feels otherwise, I will consider the asserts in cc708decoder.cpp and cc708window.cpp to be bugs and replace them with reasonable behavior.
[18:29:48] jpabq_: So, QFontMetrics "knows" that some characters need more room than the font is defining.
[18:32:09] stuartm: jpabq_: if you give it a string with those characters, does it report the correct values for the string as a whole? In other words we ignore what the font defines but what each string actually uses?
[18:34:53] stuartm: again, I know next to nothing about how this code works, I should really take a look :)
[18:40:27] jpabq_: QTextLayout is STUPID. It has a function called boundingRect that is suppose to be the smallest size needed to render all the lines. However, it just goes off the font's defined (over all) "height", and does not represent reality. QFontMetrics also has a boundingRect function that does represent reality — but doesn't have a clue about the layout that QTextLayout is dealing with.
[18:43:17] stuartm: :/
[18:44:11] davide: stuartm: yw. it's been annoying me too.
[18:44:59] wagnerrp: stuartm: is there a mechanism in the old UI (mythtv-setup) to leave a field visioble, but disabled?
[18:45:37] stuartm: wagnerrp: I don't remember, but I can find out easily enough
[18:46:02] wagnerrp: i want to disable that 'BackendServerIP6' setting if the user has no IPv6 addresses
[18:48:38] stuartm: heh, even better example of what I talked about last week –
[18:49:39] stuartm: wagnerrp: try setEnabled(false) – . . . 891567bd76c9
[18:49:55] wagnerrp: thanks
[18:53:18] skd5aner: stichnot: congrants on the promotion (i.e., commit rights) btw :)
[18:54:53] stichnot: stuartm: in jpabq_ 's example, presumably you would ask for a pixel size of 100, then query the "g...?" string and find out it's actually 110 pixels. So now you try resetting it to 91 pixels and continue the search until you find a pixel size that turns out to be actually 100?
[18:55:25] stichnot: I saw search code like that in teletextscreen.cpp to find the right fontstretch value...
[18:55:50] stichnot: skd5aner: promotion, eh? thanks! :)
[18:56:24] skd5aner: heh – well, just nice to see your activity as I go through the logs – since you've been around forever :)
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[18:58:51] stichnot: I remember starting with myth as a means to record and watch the 2008 Summer Olympics in high definition...
[19:01:52] davide: can someone please explain the logic in the 'if (pginfo->GetRecordingGroup() == "Deleted" && undelete_possible)' check in PBB::deleteSelected()?
[19:02:16] davide: first, it bypassed the !pginfo->QueryIsDeleteCandidate() check done later. while it's unlikely the program might still be in use, it's not impossible. if the program is still in use, the delete is ignored without any feedback given to the user.
[19:02:24] davide: second, the two conditions are mostly redundant. undelete_possible is merely the current AutoExpireInsteadOfDelete value and for the recgroup to be "Deleted", AutoExpireInsteadOfDelete had to have been set previously and probably still is.
[19:02:32] davide: third, and probably most important, is it really the intention to bypass the confirmation popup in this case. undelete_possible is badly named in this case because deleting from the "Deleted" recgroup is the deletion that can't be undone.
[19:02:41] davide: i propose to remove that check and fall through to the other checks, change PI::QueryIsDeleteCandidate() to always allow deletion of regular recordings when AutoExpireInsteadOfDelete is enabled (llike the patch I posted last night). if the no confirmation popup behavior is really desired for the "Deleted" recgroup, that can be handled in the final else block.
[19:07:51] taylorr: I hope everyone who fought so hard to keep Xv are happy now... for those who act like it was decided to allow Mark to gut features after 0.25 then you should refresh your memories... it was like almost all decisions which are left hanging because someone wants to protect there ancient frontend from being obsolete
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[19:30:29] Beirdo: taylorr: the proper time to discuss removal of such things is coming into the release before it will be removed. i.e. now. This is because we need to make a clear announcement to the users far enough in advance, just like we did for XvMC.
[19:30:32] danielk22: stichnot: Any asserts left in 708 decoding are probably bits I didn't get around to implementing and testing.
[19:30:47] Beirdo: i.e. announce at 0.25 release that this would be the last one with Xv support.
[19:31:10] Beirdo: that's how it was left when it was discussed mid-cycle, as best I recall
[19:34:06] wagnerrp: Beirdo: wasnt that actually discussed pre-0.24?
[19:34:18] Beirdo: XvMC was for sure
[19:34:37] Beirdo: Xv was as well, and it was decided not to take it out for 0.25
[19:34:38] stuartm: wagnerrp: yeah it was
[19:34:39] wagnerrp: i mean the whole thing, xvmc, xv, and even vdpau/vaapi
[19:34:50] Beirdo: I don't think a *permanent* decision was made
[19:34:54] wagnerrp: drop them all for an opengl approach like xbmc
[19:35:26] wagnerrp: was brought up like two years ago, during the OSD rewrite
[19:35:26] Beirdo: yeah, I recall that unrealistic conversation :)(
[19:35:28] Beirdo: hhe
[19:35:48] Beirdo: getting rid of hardware decoding once it's here is pretty unrealistic
[19:35:58] wagnerrp: not get rid of it
[19:36:11] Beirdo: reorganizing the layers is I think what the final suggestion was
[19:36:14] wagnerrp: route it through opengl like xbmc currently does, so there is only one video rendering interface
[19:36:18] Beirdo: but yes, OpenGL specifically
[19:36:42] Beirdo: sounds like a plan, but it wasn't the plan for 0.25 that I recall
[19:36:54] wagnerrp: thats what mark originally wanted to do for 0.24
[19:36:57] wagnerrp: but was shot down
[19:37:20] Beirdo: I have no issues with making that the plan for 0.26, with the exception that there needs to be a non-OpenGL setup menu at a minimum
[19:37:22] wagnerrp: since that would eliminate the old Xv users
[19:37:44] Beirdo: for the "Oh CRAP" situations when your drivers are borked and you need to fix the config
[19:38:00] Beirdo: playback... all OpenGL sounds fine here :)
[19:38:22] Beirdo: and for those NEEDING Xv, they can stick with 0.25
[19:38:28] ** Beirdo shrugs **
[19:38:51] Beirdo: just because it was decided before doesn't mean we can't rething and redecide
[19:39:00] Beirdo: rethink rather
[19:39:42] Beirdo: we need to have a roadplan...
[19:40:18] Beirdo: we don't have a group common vision for advancement, and I think that's really the core issue
[19:41:39] Beirdo: for Xv specifically, unless someone can come up with a good solid reason as to why it is needed for modern equipment, I'm fine with it being gone.
[19:41:56] Chutt: mobile hardware
[19:42:01] Beirdo: *if* it's being a maintenance issue
[19:42:15] Beirdo: mobile hardware such as?
[19:42:18] wagnerrp: wouldnt mobile hardware being using opengles/openmax?
[19:42:33] Chutt: overlays are a hell of a lot more efficient on every single chip out there
[19:43:12] Beirdo: well, that's a fair assessment, but that hasn't been the focus of development
[19:43:40] Chutt: just sayin :p
[19:43:50] Beirdo: if that were on the roadmap as being considered important, then I'm sure it would weight things differently, but during this last cycle, it sure hasn't been :)
[19:44:04] Beirdo: a good point thoug :)
[19:45:09] Beirdo: it would be cool (IMHO) to have an Android native frontend for tablets
[19:45:21] Beirdo: but we are SO far from that
[19:45:34] Beirdo: including being C++ rather than hacked up Java :)
[19:46:44] Chutt: that's not a problem, the ndk has everything you need for a frontend now
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[19:47:18] Beirdo: cool
[19:49:01] jpabq_: stuartm, stichnot, I have a fix that deals with the *actual* height being larger than the "font" height. Dealing with a possible width problem, along the same lines, would be VERY difficult to do efficiently, so I am ignoring that.
[19:49:27] jpabq_: This "fix" is not working with outlines, though, so I need to look at that.
[19:51:48] davide: i generally try to stay out of these discussions because i don't have the people skills to do it well nor the time to try since i'm so damned slow at it. some of you are certainly more in the know than me, but there is one thought that keeps coming to my mind, so i'm going to say it and then go back to letting things play out. while i'm sad to see markk, and possibly, iamlindoro, leave, i can't really see them ever being happy working on a large,
[19:51:49] davide: disorganized project like we have or even a small, tightly controlled project like they seem to want. the main reason being the way they handle things when they don't get their way.
[19:52:09] jpabq_: Actually, it is not that dealing with the possible width issue is difficult, it would just be inefficient.
[19:53:10] Beirdo: davide: you have a good point there.
[19:53:41] jpabq_: As it is, dealing with the height is going to slow down the rendering by some very small amount.
[19:55:09] Beirdo: Anyways, for 0.26, I hope to have the GPU-based commflagging ready (well, depending on when we put 0.26 release)
[19:55:35] Beirdo: with the aim of handling non-US commercials better too
[19:56:18] jpabq_: stuartm: actually, I wonder if the width component of *this* problem, is what caused your problem with text disappearing a few weeks ago because it didn't "fit"? I bet it is…
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[19:57:15] Beirdo: Also (probably with the help of stuartm), I'd like to get mythgallery using mythui and storage groups
[19:57:33] Beirdo: even if we have to disable the OpenGL effects at first
[19:58:44] jpabq_: stuartm, stichnot, it is a shame that QTextLayout/QTextLine don't jive with QFontMetrics. QTextLayout/QTextLine have very similar functions (features) to QFontMetrics, but their implementation seems incomplete when dealing with *actual* sizes.
[19:59:10] Beirdo: now if you want a fun discussion... ffmpeg or libav? :)
[19:59:41] Beirdo: we have until about April 2 to decide where our next sync will be sourced from. I'm sure there are pros and cons to either
[20:00:41] Beirdo: something to mull over while debugging
[20:03:21] Beirdo: I'll volunteer to do the sync again, but we'll need to decide which to sync from :)
[20:03:56] wagnerrp: DAMNIT!!!
[20:04:03] Beirdo: that too.
[20:04:12] ** wagnerrp tapes something in front of the power button on his UPS **
[20:04:21] Beirdo: Oh JEEZ
[20:04:24] Beirdo: you didn't!
[20:05:53] danielk22: Beirdo: My vote is for libav. But mostly because we have a man on the inside with janne. Both projects have picked up steam since the split.
[20:06:16] superm1: my understanding is now after the split the libav is more open to accepting patches thrown up at them too
[20:06:50] Beirdo: danielk22: that's certainly a strong reason for libav, as is what superm1 mentions :)
[20:07:33] stuartm: as I remember it, the majority of devs were on board with removing the old unmaintained or difficult to maintain video rendering methods and concentrating on OpenGL for everything, there were just a couple of people concerned about how that would affect their old hardware even though they weren't volunteering to maintain the renderers
[20:07:40] Beirdo: I have put off the investigation of it all until now as there was no point until we are ready to sync, which we would want to do very early in the cycle
[20:07:44] danielk22: superm1: Except that some of my patches started being accepted into ffmpeg after the split, along with in one case an apology for how long it took...
[20:08:07] superm1: oh rlly... hmf
[20:09:56] stuartm: that last bit is at least partly responsible for some of the frustration we've all experienced from one time to another, developers opinions get more weight than the users even if it's concerning code they are unable or unwilling to maintain themselves – maybe we need to think again about how we reach a decision, we don't give a minority veto rights on an issue, especially when it concerns features they are not maintaining
[20:10:44] Beirdo: stuartm: yeah, unless they are actively volunteering to step up and maintain said code, that has a lot of sense to it
[20:10:45] superm1: libav are supposed to have some level of commitment with ABI and API stability too making it more feasible to explore linking to distro versions and not having to store in tree if they're willing to accept any mythtv delta to the (libav/ffmpeg) code
[20:14:27] Beirdo: yeah. With janne there, it may make things simpler for us too
[20:16:40] stuartm: dumping xv for example is IMHO a no-brainer, all of our target systems support opengl (even 5–6 year old bottom of the range GPUs can manage it), Xv does add a number of complications to the code and visually it's awful (has anyone reminded themselves just how bad the OSD looks rendered via xv?) – it's not our job to nurse along Xv forever just so people can use the latest versions of MythTV on hardware which is older than the MythTV project
[20:16:41] stuartm: itself
[20:17:55] Beirdo: stuartm: agreed
[20:17:56] stuartm: that was my position the last time this discussion was had – maybe we need an official vote, get a firm decision
[20:17:56] Beirdo: )
[20:18:25] Beirdo: Sure. Bring it up on the mailing list, and we can put the knife in its back :)
[20:18:47] Beirdo: now *is* the time to dispose of stuff for 0.26, after all :)
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[20:19:38] wagnerrp: stuartm: do you know where the opengl renderer stands in regards to the older GMA units?
[20:19:45] stuartm: and I'll make the time to write up the project guidelines/ethos/rules this week, even though I'd much rather be working on this theme
[20:19:51] Beirdo: wagnerrp: like GMA500?
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[20:20:02] wagnerrp: like GMA3100/4500
[20:20:11] wagnerrp: Core2 on-motherboard stuff
[20:20:13] Beirdo: stuartm: talk to Captain_Murdoch on that, he has a good start on that already
[20:20:28] Beirdo: wagnerrp: ahhh. Gotcha, not sure
[20:20:37] Beirdo: I can test GMA500 easily though
[20:20:46] Beirdo: sadly :)
[20:21:02] wagnerrp: any halfway modern nvidia chip is plenty, as is any AMD chip (assuming the drivers function)
[20:21:12] wagnerrp: but those integrated intel chips were always pretty pathetic
[20:21:17] stuartm: Beirdo: I know
[20:21:28] Beirdo: yeah, and *hopefully* the sandybridge and newer works well
[20:21:47] Beirdo: stuartm: cool, just didn't want you to have to duplicate effort :)
[20:22:36] Beirdo: OK, BRB
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[20:23:06] stuartm: Beirdo: whatever we end up with will probably be based on parts of Captain_Murdoch's work, but I want to remove some of the more contentious stuff (board/leadership related) which can always be discussed at later date
[20:23:54] stuartm: hopefully what is proposed now can be readily agreed upon by everyone, then we at least have a firm footing
[20:31:56] stuartm: wagnerrp: I've got a couple of devices, a netbook with a GMA 950 (or something like that) and an old laptop that has an Intel GPU of some description, I can test
[20:32:22] stuartm: although both are much older than something like the GMA3xxx/4xxx series
[20:32:30] xavierh: Is there that much of the old UI left in mythtv ?
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[20:33:17] xavierh: If not, removing the old UI would be a nice goal for 0.26
[20:34:47] sphery: btw, I still haven't gotten any recommended OpenGL Playback Profile group settings for a GL-based example, so if we want one in 0.25...
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[20:39:16] stuartm: xavierh: no, just a couple of dialogs, a screen in mythgallery, nothing substantial and I've got a patch to deal with at least one of those
[20:40:59] stuartm: bizarrely when I run the frontend on my netbook it's trying to upgrade the schema even though there isn't a schema update required, I think somewhere the logic for older clients with mis-matching DB schemas is broken
[20:50:29] taylorr: Chutt: I'm curious (and clueless), why can't OpenGL be used on mobile chipsets in place of Xv?
[20:52:33] Chutt: it can, generally
[20:52:38] Chutt: it's just not as efficient
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[20:54:33] taylorr: ah, I figured most of the Xv acceleration was just OpenGL underneath anyways
[20:54:57] Chutt: not necessarily needing xv
[20:55:04] Chutt: but some way to access the overlay hardwrae
[20:56:07] taylorr: ok, thanks for the info
[20:56:35] Chutt: gles doesn't support yuv, so anything using that for output needs to do a copy and a csc, etc
[20:57:33] stuartm: what would be great to have is an intermediate API, somewhere between Xv in performance and OpenGL in capability, so that we solve the issues of say OSD scaling but still use overlay for rendering
[20:59:29] Chutt: it doesn't really matter for, say, android
[20:59:55] Chutt: but that's just be using a different api, anyway
[21:02:10] sphery: FWIW, the existing OpenGL video renderer is significantly less efficient than the Xv renderer--to the point that I haven't been able to do timestretch without significant frame dropping (Athlon X2 250@3GHz with nvidia GT210) with GL rendering (which is also why I refuse to be the one to create the example GL Playback Profile group settings). Both Xv and VDPAU work fine, though, even up to 2x playback. The theory was that if we dropped Xv, ...
[21:02:16] sphery: ... Mark could spend time focusing on/optimizing the GL renderer to try to get it closer to Xv-like performance, at least on modern cards, but IME, we're far from there, now.
[21:04:50] taylorr: sphery: that's a modern reason for keeping it until it can handle such playback.... hopefully Mark can make OpenGL handle that scenario
[21:06:24] Beirdo: taylorr: or we can make it handle it. I'm not going to depend on a third-party project to fix our bugs.
[21:07:21] xavierh: stuartm: you are talking about mythfrontend, is there any other program which does use the old UI? What is the plan for mythtv-setup, http only ?
[21:07:23] taylorr: that third-party project has the technical experience necessary which now doesn't exist for mythtv
[21:08:27] Beirdo: taylorr: that's debatable, but not worth debating.
[21:08:51] wagnerrp: well the simplification of the video library external player for 0.25 seems to have fallen through
[21:08:57] wagnerrp: but what about 'file browse mode'?
[21:09:28] wagnerrp: the removal of...
[21:09:51] taylorr: Beirdo: it's not debatable unless I'm unaware of another developer that is a closet video rendering expert (besides Chutt)
[21:10:31] Beirdo: I've used OpenGL as well
[21:10:53] Beirdo: I've done so before Mark was even involved with MythTV.
[21:12:03] Beirdo: Just because all of it has been done by one person doesn't mean others aren't capable.
[21:12:25] taylorr: ok, that's good to hear then
[21:12:44] sphery: wagnerrp: I'm all for removing file browse mode--I contend that 99% of people using it do so only because they don't understand how to use MythVideo properly. (And the other 1% because they find it too challenging to scan for new videos all the time because of how often they steal movies and tv shows.)
[21:13:23] wagnerrp: does content available through the mediamonitor behave differently?
[21:13:29] sphery: i.e. disable flat view if you want dirs, and the fact that flat view can be disabled separately for gallery, browse, or list views
[21:13:58] wagnerrp: i could see a use for file browse mode for removable media, but thats it
[21:14:32] wagnerrp: i just bring this up, as there was another user on the -users list suffering from 'strange behavior' due to file browse mode
[21:19:38] stuartm: we don't make additional content available through the media monitor in mythvideo, that only applies to mythgallery and to CDs in mythmusic
[21:20:14] wagnerrp: so the mediamonitor only works with video DVDs (not data DVDs with videos in a filesystem)
[21:21:06] stuartm: xavierh: mythtv-setup – initially http only, but given enough time and help I would like to create a mythui client for the new protocol, so users have a choice
[21:21:18] stuartm: wagnerrp: correct
[21:22:13] stuartm: it only supports auto-play of DVDs, mythvideo (as I can't think how else to term it) doesn't register any other handlers e.g. for display of videos on a usb thumb drive
[21:22:31] wagnerrp: i wonder how many people are actually using browse mode to otherwise access removable media
[21:24:14] stuartm: their video collection stored on a stack of DVD-Rs? Seems unlikely
[21:24:32] wagnerrp: im thinking more someone bringing over a USB stick with video
[21:24:38] wagnerrp: or perhaps a SD card out of a camera
[21:24:50] stuartm: wagnerrp: that's what mythgallery is for
[21:25:24] xavierh: stuartm: mythui client for new protocol included in mythfrontend, or are you thinking of a different tool ?
[21:25:41] stuartm: mythvideo has and always will be about film/tv, home video is more mythgallery's strength, although 'strength' might not be the most appropriate term
[21:25:46] wagnerrp: xavierh: a new client written around the new methods added to the services API
[21:26:03] wagnerrp: the setup rewrite is a web-based one, communicating with the backend through the services API
[21:26:31] xavierh: stuartm: I got but do you mean included in mythfrontend or as a separate tool like mythtv-setup is?
[21:26:43] xavierh: s/I got/I got it
[21:26:49] stuartm: xavierh: standalone app, frontends never will have good reason to access backend settings – that's strictly an admin type role that might only be needed once every few months
[21:27:30] xavierh: I will be using the http interface instead then :)
[21:27:54] wagnerrp: stuartm: you could make it like the Harmony remote application
[21:28:07] stuartm: no sense bloating mythfrontend to perform a task that is done infrequently and possibly never (not all frontends will be used for configuration)
[21:28:09] wagnerrp: a web browser application loosely wrapped around a web page... :)
[21:28:51] stuartm: wagnerrp: heh, given how badly that works for mythbrowser I'd pass
[21:30:32] CaCtus491: Random comment from a web, but non-myth developer – ExtJS 4 seems like it would be ideal for creating a setup interface.
[21:32:05] wagnerrp: the setup is already half written using jquery
[21:32:09] stuartm: xavierh: a gui app wouldn't be for everyone, but something about needing to fire up a web browser, probably on another machine e.g. a laptop to make changes to the backend configuration ... it's all a little too circuitous
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[21:35:06] stuartm: and though it's reasonably safe to assume that most homes have a second machine or a webbrowser installed on the TV, it doesn't seem to fit well with the self-contained STB for granny scenario – it's an easy argument to knock down, but it's not going to stop me from wanting a remote friendly mythui client as an alternative
[21:35:17] xavierh: stuartm: for a first time user, It would be nice to start the setup of the backend, when mythfrontend is started for the first time. that being said I have plenty of time to convince you before 0.26 is out
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[21:35:58] xavierh: stuartm: I guess it could be bth at the same time anywy
[21:36:03] xavierh: anyway
[21:36:06] xavierh: both
[21:37:11] Beirdo: stuartm: it would be nice to have a CLI/ncurses config tool too :)
[21:37:24] Beirdo: I can work with you on that if you are interested in doing so
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[21:38:43] Beirdo: granted, that can be quite the project in and of itself
[21:39:59] stuartm: xavierh: that's easy enough to do even if it's a seperate application, you can even have a menu entry to launch it from the frontend if you wanted to
[21:40:30] xavierh: Why on earth do I carry on to put "public" in front of "signals:" ? :)
[21:41:13] xavierh: stuartm: or integrated as a lib
[21:42:08] stuartm: architecturally I don't like UIs in a lib, but that may just be be me
[21:45:01] xavierh: stuartm: the same way I don't like SQL statement in the UI part :P
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[21:50:58] stuartm: we're in agreement on that
[21:52:29] davide: stuartm, Captain_Murdoch (or anyone else): any comments on my pbb delete proposal from earlier ( you two appear to have been the most active in that area.
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[21:56:51] Captain_Murdoch: davide, looks like we want that '&& undelete_possible' in there so that we can immediately delete (without prompt) something from the Deleted group if the setting is turned on, but if the setting is off, we prompt the user to make sure they want to delete.
[21:57:24] Captain_Murdoch: that's based on me looking at the code for 2–3 minutes though, I haven't had my had in that area of PBB much since the MythUI rewrite.
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[22:02:35] stuartm: sphery: should we be forcing the QT painter for mythtv-setup? It's mostly QT screens anyway and given that it's going away in 0.26 there doesn't seem to be a pressing need for it to work reliably with opengl – backends don't need to have a decent GPU
[22:04:22] sphery: we aren't forcing it... we're using it when someone has device that says it can do GL
[22:07:57] sphery: that said, I can put in a "always use qt painter for mythtv-setup", but it will have to be in the lib (either in MythRenderOpenGL::IsRecommendedRenderer() or MythMainWindow::Init(), since the app doesn't choose its painter)
[22:17:08] sphery: and, because of my earlier comments on the GL video renderer, I should probably say, that our non-video, OpenGL UI painter doesn't need much--works fine on a GF440MX type card (or probably even earlier models)
[22:21:40] stuartm: sphery: we can put in an early OverrideSetting() into main.cpp
[22:22:04] stuartm: which would allow forcing it to QT without modifying any libs
[22:22:36] sphery: I still don't see why we need to... any card that has direct rendering support should be fine--except if the video driver install is broken (and I mean fine with F/LOSS or proprietary drivers)
[22:22:58] sphery: but I'll do that
[22:23:11] stuartm: and yes, generally I've found that the opengl painter works pretty well with almost any hardware, as long as it supports hardware accelerated opengl and it doesn't fallback to software or use a broken driver
[22:23:21] sphery: oh, and note that on Qt4.8, it uses opengl even when we don't
[22:23:45] sphery: so anyone whose system doesn't work with gl painter will likely have the exact same problem with qt painter in 4.8
[22:24:27] sphery: and we /are/ explicity checking for software rendering, so the only time we're using gl painter and it doesn't work is broken driver installs
[22:24:33] stuartm: sphery: it just seems to be the path of least resistance, we don't really care about mythtv-setup running under opengl because it doesn't have a future and given that backends generally are going to be using the oldest, least capable GPU hardware ...
[22:25:01] stuartm: it gets us through to 0.26 without having to help users who have issues
[22:25:24] sphery: well, if nothing else, it will change our bug reports from, "mythtv-setup displays blank screen" to "mythfrontend displays blank screen"
[22:25:27] sphery: :)
[22:25:35] sphery: anyway, I'm happy to put the setting back if you all want
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[22:26:01] stuartm: we don't need the setting back IMHO
[22:26:02] sphery: default to auto, then users can change it rather than fixing their broken systems
[22:26:33] sphery: well, I meant if people think that we're going to have problems with 0.25 due to our trying to use a painter that the card/drivers say they can handle
[22:26:47] sphery: i.e. I do /not/ want users running with -O UIPainter overrides
[22:27:21] sphery: I'd rather have the setting than have a bunch of people either using the override or--worse--editing the DB directly
[22:27:48] stuartm: if they have problems with mythfrontend that's different, I just don't want to waste anyones time trying to sort out a user who's running a broken down system for a backend – it's a lot easier to tell a user that they need something better for a frontend, but not a backend which will probably be headless after initial setup
[22:30:11] sphery: well, if their backend's video is broken, simply doing the same thing the headless users do would "fix" the problem--use ssh X forwarding and it won't use opengl painter
[22:30:16] stuartm: anyway, it's just a suggestion, nothing more
[22:30:59] davide: Captain_Murdoch: sorry for the delay. i was helping a coworker. yes, i believe you read the code correctly. the undelete_possible part just seems odd to me. i mean the recording is in the Deleted recgroup already so somebody already "deleted" it — either never require confirmation if that's the desired behavior or always do it. anyway, the more important part to me is changing QueryIsDeleteCandidate() and moving the Deleted case below that.
[22:30:59] sphery: yeah, I just don't like trying to work on broken setups, but like you said, it's mostly harmless to do so for mythtv-setup
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[22:33:44] stuartm: davide: the undelete, deleted recording group stuff is unfamiliar territory for me, I don't use the feature and I've never looked at the code dealing specifically with that feature, just the general delete logic on the periphery – if my name appears in the git annotation it's only because I shunted some stuff around during the mythui port or PBB refactors
[22:34:16] stuartm: in other words, I trust whatever conclusions you come to and I can't shed further light on it
[22:34:54] jya: what is the unsigned equivalent to int64_t  ?
[22:35:00] Beirdo: uint64_t
[22:35:08] jya: that's what I thought
[22:35:32] jya: but doesn't compile (in code with plenty of int64_t)
[22:35:49] davide: stuartm: ok. it was hard to decipher the history for this area because of the mythui conversion and one or more pi refactors came after the feature was added.
[22:36:04] Beirdo: it should. Likely are missing the requisite headers and int64_t is defined by some dumb luck
[22:36:23] sphery: stdint.h
[22:38:40] jya: I now have the name of the audio device connected via hdmi showing when available...
[22:38:53] jya: it shows in the description field at the bottom of the audio config…
[22:39:11] stuartm: nice touch
[22:39:20] jya: it's informational only, (same as the capabilities showed).. I have mentioned it previously, and I like to commit that.
[22:40:56] jya: I see this as a "fix" for finding the proper hdmi device to use (there are always a few in there)
[22:42:09] stuartm: fine by me, but you might want to ask on the list and wait to see if there are any immediate objections, the same as I did for the ui patches
[22:42:22] Beirdo: good plan. No objections here
[22:42:29] jya: yeah, I ask because I read your message :)
[22:42:54] Beirdo: I think we are early enough in the freeze that minor cosmetic things shouldn't be too much of an issue
[22:43:09] jya: Ok.. I ask in the list
[22:43:12] Beirdo: but yeah, best to solicit the objections on-list, just in case :)
[22:44:19] stuartm: if you ask on the list then no-one can come back afterwards and say weren't asked (not everyone uses/monitors IRC after all)
[22:47:46] jya: anyhow, if I can't put it in, I'll fork anyway :)
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[23:10:44] stichnot: davide: I prefer having the confirmation dialog even when deleting from the Deleted group. Consistency, fewer undoable surprises.
[23:11:47] davide: stichnot: ok. anyone else care to comment. i don't really feel that strongly about it either way.
[23:16:10] Beirdo: confirmations are (generally) the more user-friendly way
[23:16:21] Beirdo: in case someone hit the wrong button too :)
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[23:19:39] stichnot: The first time I undeleted a recording, I was surprised it didn't return to its original storage group. but no complaints, I was just grateful to get it back...
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[23:32:05] jya: Amazing, the new XCode 4.3 is now a self-contained program, no more /Developer full of stuff
[23:32:33] sphery: that will be fixed by tags "soon" (tags = ability to assign multiple, user-specified tags versus a single recgroup)
[23:36:08] stichnot: yes, tags will be great.
[23:36:49] Beirdo: hash-tags? :)
[23:36:53] ** Beirdo runs **
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[23:52:08] stuartm: davide: I think the expected behaviour in these situations is always to prompt before performing an irrecoverable action
[23:54:12] stuartm: stichnot: unfortunately it doesn't seem that we keep track of the old group, in a way it's a flaw in the design, rather than moving recordings to a new group it would have been better to mark them as deleted in some other way – in fact probably the same way we mark them deleted now in that window between asking for a delete and deletion being completed – the available status flags
[23:54:18] davide: stuartm: right. that's why i thought the current code was odd. the case where there is no undo is the one that didn't require confirmation.
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[23:58:21] stichnot: stuartm: yeah, that behavior became completely understandable once I learned the schema. sphery's tags should fix that — just add/remove the Deleted tag, and filter out recordings with a Deleted tag when displaying non-Deleted groups.
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