| Wednesday, August 31st, 2011, 00:00 UTC | ||
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| [00:36:14] | danielk22: | sphery: It was worth a look. If every hypothesis paned out life would be too boring. |
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| [06:22:21] | xris: | http://www.schedulesdirect.org/ |
| [06:25:11] | xris: | (fairly major news item) |
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| [11:01:34] | stuartm: | xris: good luck |
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| [12:36:18] | stuartm: | did anyone manage to grab a TouchPad in the firesale? |
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| [12:58:56] | danielk22: | stuartm: I didn't — but they are planning to assemble some more out of the existing parts inventory. |
| [13:00:58] | stuartm: | so I hear, although whether we'll get any over here ... |
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| [13:28:58] | stuartm: | and it's just been confirmed that they will only be available in the US |
| [13:30:01] | stuartm: | guess I'll just wait for a comparatively spec'd model from another manufacturer to hit the same price point |
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| [15:30:29] | dlasher: | morning all.. |
| [15:30:57] | dlasher: | Any PXE/NFS/Netboot experts/semi-experts present and willing to answer a question? |
| [15:31:43] | danielk22: | dlasher: this is the mythtv development channel |
| [15:32:06] | dlasher: | sorry danielk22 — wrong channel — 1000 apologies.. \bow out. |
| [15:32:17] | dlasher: | if I read chantop I'd know that.. :p |
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| [21:08:21] | skd5aner: | stuartm: looks like my order for a touchpad is still being processed by HP, but they supposidely have confirmed I made the deadline for fullfilment, so I'm just waiting for it to arrive |
| [21:10:52] | stuartm: | skd5aner: lucky, I completely missed the news until it was too late :) |
| [21:11:13] | skd5aner: | Yea, even if you got the news – they went basically within an hour everywhere |
| [21:11:37] | skd5aner: | I actually called up an OfficeMax (office supply company here in the US) who said they had 1 eft... it was 10 minutes away, when I got there it was gone |
| [21:11:45] | skd5aner: | they wouldn't hold it for me or let me purchase over the phone |
| [21:11:52] | stuartm: | within 15 minutes at most major retailers here |
| [21:12:10] | skd5aner: | and the HP and other online retailers sold out within a few hours, and that was Friday night/saturday morning |
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| [21:12:55] | stuartm: | that's the way it goes I suppose, although I'm annoyed that so many apparently bought just to re-sell on ebay etc |
| [21:12:57] | skd5aner: | I just kept trying to order on HP's small business website, which didn't list them as sold out, but they're .Net based web servers kept erroring out with "Out of Memory" errors... took me about an hour to get all the way through with an order |
| [21:13:43] | skd5aner: | yea, I got one as a toy... I'm hoping the folks trying to figure out out to get android on it have some success |
| [21:14:05] | skd5aner: | apparently, some engineering models accidently got sent out to customers that already had android pre-loaded on it |
| [21:15:15] | skd5aner: | but apparently, the speculation is that Amazon is going to come out with the next tablet to really be able to challenge the iPad when it comes to market penetration |
| [21:15:37] | stuartm: | that's why I wouldn't pay more for it than the £89–115 they were asking, it's not going to replace a phone or laptop, it's not really powerful or modifiable enough for anything beyond mobile browsing, note taking or checking photos on a larger screen |
| [21:16:19] | stuartm: | even though they were discounted so heavily, the price they were asking was about right for the functionality on offer |
| [21:17:05] | GreyFoxx: | I wish I had gotten one of those :/ It would have been a nice toy |
| [21:17:43] | GreyFoxx: | the cyanogenmod guys have an initial video up of the touchpad running android 2.3.5 |
| [21:17:54] | danielk22: | skd5aner: I have an iPad, but it's worthless as an e-reader as you can only conveniently read Apple store titles and none of the things I want to read are available though the apple store. Unfortunately having an iPad makes it hard to justify the cost of a Galaxy or any other $500 tablet. |
| [21:17:54] | stuartm: | web-os suits me fine too, I don't really like the googly aspects of Android and I don't see how Android would improve on the basics I'd be using it for |
| [21:18:12] | skd5aner: | yea – I might even go as far as playing around with it simply to see if I can implement some of the IP based control stuff in an adroid app |
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| [21:18:44] | danielk22: | stuartm: Me too, while android is interesting, I'd keep the WebOS. |
| [21:18:52] | skd5aner: | stuartm: I'd be more concerned about the future of webos and how many devs plan to still spend any time releasing apps for the platform |
| [21:19:15] | skd5aner: | or how much resources HP would plan on putting into updates for webos |
| [21:19:24] | stuartm: | skd5aner: I think WebOS is safe, at least long enough for most people to have ditched their TouchPads for something newer |
| [21:20:01] | skd5aner: | yea, but in a "keep the lights on" fashion versus "keep it fresh and new to keep customers happy"? |
| [21:20:09] | stuartm: | skd5aner: especially since it's rumoured that Samsung are considering buying WebOS from HP |
| [21:20:25] | skd5aner: | why not just spin Palm back off... ha |
| [21:21:27] | stuartm: | skd5aner: IMHO it doesn't need to be kept fresh, the hardware is fixed, it ain't ever going to change and it's got a lifespan of 3–4 years at the most, so bug fixes are really all that matters |
| [21:21:38] | danielk22: | skd5aner: stuartm: I think development of WebOS is pretty much dead for tablets and phones, there isn't room for it in the market. But by the time that really matters for a tablet you'll want to replace it with something with a transflective display, less weight and longer battery life. |
| [21:22:12] | skd5aner: | eh – I just don't see many people jumping on a dead platform |
| [21:23:08] | skd5aner: | I don't know much about the WebOS "market/app store", but I already know that blackberry isn't having much success with some major players in the iOS and android space porting things over to the blackberry market (like skype for example) |
| [21:23:41] | skd5aner: | why would people want to spend any time/effort creating, supporting, updating apps for something they know is EOL |
| [21:23:50] | danielk22: | IMHO The lack of a transflective display is the #1 problem with the current crop of tablets & smartphones. Everyday I go hunting for a shadow so I can change what I'm listening to on my smart phone. |
| [21:24:00] | skd5aner: | heh :() |
| [21:24:02] | skd5aner: | :) |
| [21:24:56] | stuartm: | danielk22: I sincerely hope that's not true, two products in the market isn't choice, it's as bad as just one – I don't like Apple's lock-in or Google's need to know everything I do – there is need for a third option at the very least |
| [21:26:07] | stuartm: | skd5aner: the platform's not dead though, actually the opposite thanks to the TouchPad selling out – overnight they've created a huge market for WebOS |
| [21:26:28] | skd5aner: | stuartm: can't necessarily disagree with you, but I kind of agree with danielk22 – I don't see anyone caring about a third option – at least not one the emulates the other two anyway (plus there's MS and Blackberry playing in the field as well) |
| [21:27:03] | skd5aner: | stuartm: yea – I hear ya, I just think it'll take a few months for things to sort out to really see what's going to to happen |
| [21:27:22] | stuartm: | true |
| [21:27:43] | skd5aner: | I mean, HP basically said it's going to get out of the PC, tablet, and consumer printer business... so what incentive do they have to really fund things in that arena besides a "keep the lights on approach" |
| [21:27:44] | danielk22: | stuartm: There will be eventually. I had hoped Nokia would do it, but under current management that isn't going to happen. Blackberry might pull out of their death spiral, but until they are totally dead no one will want to enter as the fourth wheel, esp after HP's exit. |
| [21:28:12] | skd5aner: | it's like the fact that Walmart announced they're going to get out of the online digital music selling business, but plan to at least keep their DRM servers on for several more years |
| [21:28:54] | danielk22: | (Well other than Microsoft, but their OS is just horrid.) |
| [21:29:27] | stuartm: | MS and Blackberry are going to be the also-rans in the OS field, MS because it's MS and Blackberry because like Apple they are all about their own hardware |
| [21:31:35] | stuartm: | skd5aner: HP UK boss is back-tracking on the 'we're getting out of the business' line, he's said that it's no more than one of many possible ideas they are discussing – whether that's true or not, the wider world thinks they must be mad to abandon hardware for software and that's going to influence their shareholders too |
| [21:32:29] | skd5aner: | yea – I don't get it |
| [21:33:20] | skd5aner: | I work for a company that has to be one of HP's largest customers... period... especially since they bought EDS, who we also were one of thir largest customers |
| [21:33:37] | skd5aner: | I would think we've got some folks who are also trying to discuss some long term strategy with them |
| [21:36:55] | stuartm: | the complete sell-out of the Touchpads has demonstrated that people do want tablets, they just don't want a £400 tablet (unless it's an iPad, but that's about branding), certainly other manufacturers will learn from this and start to reduce prices, re-lease budget models etc |
| [21:37:54] | danielk22: | Taking this discussion back to MythTV have you guys looked at necessitas ? It allows you to run Qt programs on Android... I've been wondering how much work that would be. Obviously video would be a whole other thing, but could the rest of the frontend be easily ported? |
| [21:38:50] | danielk22: | That would be severely cool for a GoogleTV TV or a tablet. Less compelling on a phone of course. |
| [21:39:56] | danielk22: | It does not do OpenGL ES but the Qt graphics looked fast in the video.. |
| [21:42:23] | j-rod is now known as j-rod|afk | |
| [21:47:25] | stuartm: | danielk22: I hadn't heard of it before now |
| [21:49:50] | stuartm: | I'd have to look at the limitations but a frontend port would be interesting, entirely feasible but it would probably need the right theme because of memory constraints on those devices |
| [21:51:27] | skd5aner: | I think the webos guys were basically saying the hardware that HP decided to use was rediculously underpowered and they had to "dumb down" webos for it... the software guys thought the hardware would be their downfall. |
| [21:52:10] | danielk22: | stuartm: Yep, 512 MB on a GoogleTV. But that's not that far from where my frontend sits @ 808 MB. I know there is a lot of room for memory savings if it's necessary; my resident usage is < 100 MB.. |
| [21:52:27] | skd5aner: | I read an article where they actually were able to hack webos onto an ipad2, and it ran an order of maginitude faster... and they were even able to run it within the safari browser context within iOS and it ran faster than n the native touchpad hardware |
| [21:52:52] | skd5aner: | http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/08/webos-on-ipad/ |
| [21:54:46] | skd5aner: | I do find it funny that I've continued to see touchpad commercials and my wife showed me a staples add for "$50 off the touchpad this week" – way to let those marketing campaigns run on |
| [21:54:47] | skd5aner: | :) |
| [21:55:26] | wagnerrp: | danielk22: now i know you saw mark's post a few weeks back, because you responded |
| [21:55:42] | stuartm: | danielk22: in the past we've not had to think too hard about reducing memory usage, it could be interesting to profile and see whether there's some unexpected and simple to fix memory hogs |
| [21:55:42] | wagnerrp: | is that the kind of thing youre talking about? |
| [21:57:03] | stuartm: | I've long been mulling over potential memory saving options for the UI, compositing images when possible to reduce the number we need to store, it's not what I'd call a trivial fix but definitely a possibility |
| [21:57:18] | wagnerrp: | stuartm: yeah, simon kenyon inquired about that rasberry pi thing yesterday, and besides the normal video decoding issues, it was an outright no because it only has 128MB of memory |
| [21:57:40] | danielk22: | Yeah, to keep our code simpler and hence less buggy, we assume that we have virtual memory. But since we've never had to lower virtual memory usage there is probably a good deal of low hanging fruit. |
| [21:57:59] | wagnerrp: | even stuff like the appletv paired with a crystalhd is somewhat painful with only 256MB of memory |
| [21:58:36] | stuartm: | it's simpler still for themers to think hard about how they use images, i.e. using one image to achieve the same effect as three separate overlayed images |
| [22:00:00] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: 128MB is a non-starter, it was a no-go even 5 years ago with the 'cheapest' theme then available (Iulius or something) |
| [22:00:51] | danielk22: | wagnerrp: To me at least the AppleTV was never compelling. It can't play back 1080i, and it's more expensive than a decent frontend that can do that and a lot more. The iPad and GoogleTV are a lot more compelling to me. |
| [22:01:12] | stuartm: | fonts and images burn through memory, but even so, they probably aren't the first place we should look |
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| [22:04:06] | wagnerrp: | danielk22: an appletv with the wireless replaced by a crystalhd decoder isnt bad |
| [22:04:19] | wagnerrp: | aside from the memory issue, the only thing lacking is hdmi output |
| [22:04:33] | wagnerrp: | but it puts you in the same boat as people with underpowered Atoms using VDPAU |
| [22:05:00] | wagnerrp: | one way or another, if the hardware decoder chokes, youre out of luck |
| [22:05:28] | wagnerrp: | but the ipad is really not at all compelling as a frontend, unless you want to transcode all your content for it |
| [22:05:34] | wagnerrp: | dont know about the googletv |
| [22:07:01] | danielk22: | Heh, you don't know what I think of Atoms+VDPAU.. My opinion is of course colored by my experiences with VIA. Unless somebody is paying me $500k to make a really bitchin low cost device I respectfully decline to play the low cost hardware that will be irrelevant in 18 months game. :) |
| [22:07:10] | skd5aner: | not sure what kind of decoding capabilities are on the popular android tablets or the touchpad |
| [22:08:00] | wagnerrp: | danielk22: FWIW, im of the same opinion as far as all this Atom stuff |
| [22:08:13] | stuartm: | anything that can't play a direct stream from the backend without transcoding or other intermediate steps really isn't interesting to me – it negates the whole convenience of the feature |
| [22:08:37] | wagnerrp: | personally, i would never run a 'proper' frontend that didnt have enough CPU power to decode the content i wanted to use in software |
| [22:08:51] | wagnerrp: | im just saying as far as hardware decoding, the appletv isnt much worse than the rest of the field |
| [22:09:02] | wagnerrp: | (if you give it a CHD card) |
| [22:09:27] | ** wagnerrp heads out to dinner ** | |
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| [22:10:29] | stuartm: | I'm biased because most of the work I've put into MythTV has been on the frontend but I really would like to see a full frontend on a touchscreen device and not an 'app' or cutdown client |
| [22:11:30] | danielk22: | stuartm: I've been thinking a bunch about automatic transcoding. But it's only compelling because the tablet provides a different enough UI experience to be interesting; esp if we could take the whole frontend with us via Qt. |
| [22:12:40] | danielk22: | stuartm: The cut-down app has already been done 5+ years ago with the LinuxMCE MythTV Symbian remote app. |
| [22:13:12] | stuartm: | it's unfinished, could use some serious re-working but the frontend does have mouse/touchscreen support of sorts, I'd happily do more work on it if I thought there was a reason to |
| [22:13:39] | danielk22: | It was pretty cool for music, since you could control it without turning on the TV, but less compelling as a remote control. |
| [22:17:55] | Chutt: | tablets? |
| [22:17:58] | Chutt: | *ahem* |
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| [22:21:37] | ** stuartm writes a hundred lines – "I must not go off-topic in #mythtv" ** | |
| [22:21:39] | danielk22: | Chutt: you want to speak up ? :) |
| [22:22:16] | danielk22: | We did veer off to mythtv on tablets eventually... |
| [22:24:38] | Chutt: | no no |
| [22:24:50] | Chutt: | just that all i do is tablets |
| [22:28:20] | danielk22: | Chutt: I assume you have some opinions on MythTV on tablets... For instance, what's a good model Android tablet to target? |
| [22:30:11] | Chutt: | depends |
| [22:30:12] | stuartm: | is there any emulation software for those without actual hardware to test? |
| [22:30:39] | Chutt: | i'd think the ui and stuff would require a tegra3, so, that's not available yet |
| [22:31:01] | Chutt: | problem is that mobile stuff doesn't support vdpau |
| [22:31:12] | Chutt: | everything's openmax il, so that's a rewrite |
| [22:31:44] | danielk22: | stuartm: That I can answer, you can emulate a tablet — but it is very slow. |
| [22:32:50] | danielk22: | Chutt: For the UI we could do the UI using Qt drawing with necessitas, at least as a first pass. The video is of course a different ball of wax. |
| [22:32:56] | stuartm: | danielk22: figures ... I suppose if choosing between upgrades to allow reasonable emulation and testing on the actual hardware, I'd rather spend my money on the latter |
| [22:33:01] | Chutt: | naw |
| [22:33:05] | Chutt: | opengl would actually be better |
| [22:34:56] | Chutt: | at least all the honeycomb tabs are 720p+ |
| [22:38:18] | danielk22: | Chutt: Am I right in assuming all the tablets need transcoding of HD material down to something their decoders can handle? |
| [22:38:48] | Chutt: | to h264 baseline, same res |
| [22:38:55] | Chutt: | newer stuff won't have that same requirement |
| [22:39:30] | danielk22: | Basically the same as iPad, for now.. |
| [22:44:20] | Chutt: | ah, they have announced it |
| [22:44:29] | Chutt: | tegra3 basically does everything bluray needs |
| [22:44:37] | Chutt: | so, should be plenty for myth |
| [22:47:40] | danielk22: | yeah, MPEG-2 & H.264 up to 1080i main profile. And there are stories in May about a pre-back-to-school release.. |
| [22:48:19] | Chutt: | demoed 50mbps h264 high profile 1440p back in february or whatnot |
| [22:49:04] | danielk22: | cool! can it do multiple streams at main profile then? |
| [22:49:34] | Chutt: | max would be a combination of bitrate and macroblock counts |
| [22:52:20] | danielk22: | Ok, I have an excuse now to buy another tablet in the fall :) |
| [23:04:54] | stuartm: | my 8200 is fine with bluray content but struggles a little with some broadcast stuff, of course it's probably the de-interlacing which makes the difference |
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