Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Friday, November 15th, 2013, 00:00 UTC

[00:00:03]

wagnerrp:

or run 0.26 on 13.04?

[00:00:11]

wagnerrp:

s/13.04/13.10/

[00:03:32]

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[00:21:04]

tgm4883:

wagnerrp, or 0.25

[00:21:17]

tgm4883:

12.04 shipped with 0.25, so he could have 0.25, 0.26, or 0.27

[00:23:26]

wagnerrp:

sphery, stuartm: could one of you confirm that this is accurate? http://www.mythtv.org/wiki?title=Talk:Austral . . . ;oldid=59436

[00:27:13]

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[00:40:07]

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[00:40:23]

plut0:

is there a screensaver for mythtv when a show is paused? version is 0.26

[00:42:52]

wagnerrp:

no, but mythtv should un-disable your OS's screensaver or dpms

[00:43:22]

plut0:

wagnerrp: bummer

[00:43:50]

wagnerrp:

why not just let dpms do its thing?

[00:44:07]

plut0:

i guess so, haven't thought about it

[00:45:28]

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[00:50:01]

plut0:

wagnerrp: so mythtv has controls to de-activate the screensaver when something is playing?

[00:50:47]

wagnerrp:

it will deactivate dpms and the standard X screensaver

[00:51:00]

plut0:

wagnerrp: is there a setting for it or does it just work?

[00:51:07]

wagnerrp:

should "just work"

[00:51:12]

plut0:

ok

[00:51:35]

wagnerrp:

unless you have a plasma tv, there's no real value in a screen saver, other than to look pretty

[00:51:48]

plut0:

i have a plasma

[00:51:50]

wagnerrp:

LCDs do not burn in, and thus do not need "saving"

[00:51:51]

wagnerrp:

ah

[00:55:12]

jya_:

wagnerrp: I've finished my review of freebsd/ubuntu and zfs: surprising results: http://jyavariousideas.blogspot.com.au/2013/1 . . . -part-2.html

[00:55:43]

jya_:

wagnerrp: I have plenty of LCDs that would disagree with you...

[00:56:37]

jya_:

including a LCD on an android device that was displaying the insert sim image for over a month without ever turning off the screen (was plugged on USB in a debugger). now the missing sim icon is stuck on it can always see it.

[00:57:05]

wagnerrp:

i had an old LCD with a memory, but it wouldn't permanently burn in

[00:57:19]

wagnerrp:

at one point, it had been cleaned with windex, and the edges were not well sealed

[00:57:29]

wagnerrp:

so the top right edge got... weird

[00:57:40]

jya_:

and I have 3 or 4 old LCDs that were used to display network information; those are "burnt" too... i turned one one last week because I needed a screen on the new server.

[00:57:54]

jya_:

and sure enough, here was the mrtg placement

[00:58:22]

wagnerrp:

if you left an application open for several hours, you would be able to see a ghost of the minimize/maximize/close buttons for a few minutes

[00:58:51]

jya_:

at the train station here; they use LCD screens; and when the display change (rarely) you can see the name of the station still showing... won't disappear

[00:59:23]

wagnerrp:

isn't freenas still based off freebsd 8?

[00:59:36]

jya_:

thus; stating LCD do not need saving; is contradictory to my own experience... and I'm talking plain LCDs here, not oled or anything like that

[00:59:38]

wagnerrp:

or did they finally update it?

[00:59:43]

jya_:

freebas 9.1 now

[01:00:04]

jya_:

it had been stuck on freebsd 7 for a long time; until the project got restarted by iXsystems

[01:03:25]

jya_:

transferring via nfs is much quicker on linux 9and use far less CPU)

[01:03:51]

jya_:

I'm transferring my recording directory; nfsd takes over 17% on the freenas

[01:05:01]

wagnerrp:

i'm not understanding some of these numbers... 12GB/s on ext4?

[01:05:15]

jya_:

that would be an effect of the cache

[01:05:42]

jya_:

on those re-reading test; it's usually read straight from the cache; and with 32GB of RAM; there's plenty

[01:06:35]

wagnerrp:

yeah, just read up to see how much memory was there

[01:07:13]

wagnerrp:

i'm actually surprised to see ext4 perform so poorly otherwise

[01:07:48]

jya_:

on big file... yeah... I interruped the test after about 6 hours

[01:07:53]

jya_:

it had only done half the test

[01:08:10]

clever:

there are simple ways to nuke the cache

[01:08:22]

clever:

just echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches

[01:08:51]

jya_:

is that for the duration of the session?

[01:09:02]

clever:

it just drops all caches once

[01:09:09]

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[01:09:10]

clever:

you would need to re-run that between each test

[01:09:34]

clever:

caching is still enabled, and it will just re-cache everything afterwards

[01:10:26]

jya_:

some of those tests goes on for several hours

[01:10:33]

jya_:

so would have to do it in between

[01:10:50]

jya_:

and I'm not so sure zfs would use that cache anyway

[01:10:58]

jya_:

it's part if the larc

[01:11:10]

clever:

i think the main reason to run such large tests, is to make sure it doesnt fit in the cache

[01:11:19]

clever:

but if you nuke the cache, you can get away with much smaller things like 1gig

[01:12:02]

plut0:

jya: how do you like zfs?

[01:12:03]

clever:

but you may need to modify the benchmark tool to nuke things between each test

[01:13:04]

jya_:

plut0: given the choice ; I wouldn't use anything else

[01:13:27]

jya_:

clever: that's not how zfs works...

[01:13:40]

plut0:

jya_: i've been using it on linux for awhile myself, pretty happy with it

[01:14:05]

wagnerrp:

i need to figure out what to do with this SSD i have

[01:14:15]

wagnerrp:

i think i just need to leave a big chunk unused

[01:14:37]

plut0:

wagnerrp: zfs log/cache

[01:14:49]

wagnerrp:

yes, but there's no TRIM on log/cache at the moment

[01:15:01]

plut0:

wagnerrp: so what?

[01:15:04]

wagnerrp:

so once it fills and garbage collection kicks in, performance drops to nothing

[01:15:19]

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[01:15:21]

plut0:

wagnerrp: is your workload that intensive that you've seen a hit?

[01:16:18]

wagnerrp:

intensive? not at all

[01:16:35]

wagnerrp:

but all writes go through the zil, and those will stall for tens of seconds

[01:16:43]

plut0:

wagnerrp: i've been collecting iostat via nagios for my ssd used for log, cache and mythtv recordings, my average utilization is 0.02%

[01:17:17]

plut0:

maxed at 24.5%

[01:17:39]

plut0:

wagnerrp: what stalls?

[01:17:53]

wagnerrp:

any write

[01:18:02]

plut0:

zil is only used for synchronous writes

[01:18:43]

plut0:

are you forcing fsync or fdatasync somewhere?

[01:18:52]

wagnerrp:

specifically, i try to copy a few hundred MB file to the pool using samba, and it stalls about halfway through

[01:19:05]

wagnerrp:

so samba may be, but i'm not intentionally

[01:19:07]

plut0:

how large is your log?

[01:19:48]

wagnerrp:

2GB on root and each recording disk, 8GB on the big array

[01:20:04]

plut0:

how much memory?

[01:20:10]

wagnerrp:

16GB

[01:20:18]

wagnerrp:

most of it should go to ARC

[01:20:58]

plut0:

which is stalling? hdd or ssd?

[01:21:11]

wagnerrp:

the SSD

[01:21:19]

plut0:

you can see it with iostat?

[01:22:27]

plut0:

iostat -x that is

[01:22:46]

wagnerrp:

i removed the big partition (206GB), formatted it ufs with trim enabled, filled it and flushed it

[01:22:50]

wagnerrp:

haven't had a problem since

[01:23:04]

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[01:23:28]

wagnerrp:

gstat was reporting very high load on the drive

[01:23:51]

plut0:

i've only maxed my ssd when i do backups on the off hours, otherwise its my hdd i'm maxing out

[01:25:03]

wagnerrp:

the SSD should actually max out before the HDDs, but both will occur somewhere around 400–500MB/s

[01:25:09]

wagnerrp:

which is plenty for my needs

[01:25:36]

plut0:

wagnerrp: hdd can still max out on writes

[01:25:55]

wagnerrp:

if it's seeking heavily, the HDD will easily max out

[01:26:01]

wagnerrp:

sequentially, the HDD will best the SDD

[01:26:20]

wagnerrp:

(because there's 5 of them)

[01:26:29]

plut0:

using raid-z?

[01:26:33]

wagnerrp:

2

[01:26:43]

plut0:

with zpool though?

[01:26:43]

wagnerrp:

so 5+2

[01:26:49]

wagnerrp:

yes

[01:26:52]

plut0:

oh

[01:26:56]

plut0:

raid-z2

[01:27:25]

plut0:

you can add disks to a raid-z right?

[01:27:33]

wagnerrp:

no

[01:27:42]

plut0:

you can never expand it?

[01:27:53]

wagnerrp:

you can add new arrays to the pool

[01:27:59]

wagnerrp:

but you cannot add disks to an array

[01:28:31]

wagnerrp:

so i either have to sequentially swap out each disk, or add another array

[01:28:44]

wagnerrp:

logs and cache can be swapped at will

[01:28:55]

plut0:

so you'd add another raid-z to the zpool?

[01:29:04]

wagnerrp:

yes

[01:29:24]

plut0:

yeah they need to add some features

[01:29:37]

plut0:

like being able to put a disk in maintenance mode so it can be removed from a zpool

[01:29:55]

plut0:

and being able to expand a raid-z

[01:30:00]

wagnerrp:

well to be fair, how many commercial users would ever want to add additional disks to an array?

[01:30:02]

plut0:

wishlist

[01:30:24]

plut0:

happens to me in the enterprise sometimes

[01:30:26]

wagnerrp:

as opposed to replace it with a larger version

[01:30:48]

plut0:

i think i remember netapp being able to do that

[01:31:19]

wagnerrp:

it just seems like a feature only needed out of poor planning

[01:31:34]

wagnerrp:

(or in the case of the typical home user, no planning)

[01:31:37]

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[01:31:48]

plut0:

seems like something trivial that should be available to me

[01:32:42]

wagnerrp:

it's a nice feature, it just isn't one i would put at a high priority

[01:32:56]

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[01:33:01]

plut0:

oh and another one

[01:33:14]

plut0:

being able to schedule dedup

[01:33:20]

plut0:

another netapp feature that zfs can't do

[01:33:44]

wagnerrp:

doesn't zfs do dedup in real time?

[01:33:49]

plut0:

yes

[01:33:54]

wagnerrp:

so why schedule it?

[01:33:59]

plut0:

but i'd rather schedule it off hours for performance reasons

[01:34:08]

plut0:

its expensive to do it realtime

[01:34:28]

wagnerrp:

well not really, since it's going to do it anyway

[01:34:46]

wagnerrp:

it just means you need extra memory to store your checksum table

[01:34:51]

plut0:

i've had bad experience with it performance wise

[01:35:19]

plut0:

i'm also pushing the limits on my "server"

[01:35:38]

jya_:

plut0: having too much zil will actually likely reduce your performance... you don't want a too big zil... 1–2gig max

[01:35:46]

jya_:

so a big SSD is usually a total waste

[01:35:57]

wagnerrp:

you can use the remainder for L2ARC

[01:36:23]

plut0:

jya_: i've watched zpool iostat and barely see it being used, like i said, its only for synchronous writes

[01:36:25]

wagnerrp:

rule of thumb is ~10 seconds at your peak sustained write rate

[01:36:39]

plut0:

yeah i've seen that sizing guide

[01:38:30]

plut0:

looks like my cache drive is working well, 64G in use, 8M free ha

[01:39:57]

wagnerrp:

is the whole thing partitioned?

[01:40:03]

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[01:40:17]

plut0:

wagnerrp: my ssd? yeah

[01:40:37]

plut0:

wagnerrp: i partitioned it so i can use it for log/cache on different zpools

[01:41:19]

wagnerrp:

either it has a chunk of space it keeps reserved for its garbage collection, or it has much better routines than my drive

[01:41:59]

plut0:

wagnerrp: yeah i'm barely denting mine

[01:42:09]

plut0:

wagnerrp: also using it for mythtv recordings

[01:42:28]

wagnerrp:

recording directly to it?

[01:42:31]

plut0:

up to 4 recordings simultaneously

[01:42:34]

plut0:

wagnerrp: yes

[01:42:37]

jya_:

plut0: if you have a 64gig ZIL; you will get much worse experience than without...

[01:42:41]

plut0:

as an ext4 partition

[01:42:54]

wagnerrp:

i'm recording to standard partitions, and just giving them a bit of ZIL

[01:43:06]

wagnerrp:

standard disks

[01:43:06]

plut0:

jya_: 64G is cache, not log

[01:43:11]

jya_:

IMHO, unless you know exactly what you are doing, zfs should be left alone

[01:43:26]

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[01:44:35]

plut0:

partitions: 8G log, 8G log, 64G cache, 64G cache and 77G ext4 for mythtv

[01:44:51]

plut0:

2 different zpools

[01:44:59]

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[01:46:33]

plut0:

i need to buy a new server

[01:46:43]

plut0:

was considering supermicro but

[01:46:54]

plut0:

i think a heavy duty desktop will do fine and come out cheaper

[01:47:25]

wagnerrp:

unless you're moving up to multi-processor, the only reason to get server gear is for ECC support

[01:47:31]

wagnerrp:

and then, only if you're buying intel

[01:47:52]

wagnerrp:

AMD supports ECC in their desktop parts

[01:48:07]

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[01:50:09]

plut0:

i have all amd desktops but i think i'd buy intel for the server for more performance

[01:50:40]

plut0:

the other consideration i had was limited memory

[01:50:49]

plut0:

can only get 64G on a desktop currently

[01:51:24]

plut0:

well i think you can get 128G but it would cost more than a server board

[01:51:38]

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[01:51:38]

wagnerrp:

i'm not sure which CPUs support registered memory off hand

[01:52:15]

plut0:

yeah i don't see any 16Gx1 RAM dimm's for desktop

[01:52:21]

LTHorn:

anyone willing to take a stab at a partial lock problem that I have been having?

[01:52:38]

wagnerrp:

broadcast, i'm presuming?

[01:53:06]

LTHorn:

Comcast. mcard. infinitv4

[01:53:41]

LTHorn:

(TL___)

[01:53:59]

LTHorn:

get it on 90% of channels

[01:54:04]

wagnerrp:

the only thing i could think that might cause that is the cablecard tuner feeding mythtv a TS without the data it wants

[01:54:35]

LTHorn:

ts?

[01:54:48]

wagnerrp:

transport stream

[01:55:02]

LTHorn:

remedies?

[01:55:19]

wagnerrp:

the physical channel is one big transport stream, carrying a bunch of audio and video channels

[01:55:36]

wagnerrp:

digital tuners filter that down to what you want, and pass on a transport stream carrying only those

[01:56:42]

LTHorn:

that doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence Lol

[01:57:03]

plut0:

wagnerrp: so you're saying some amd boards/chips can use registered RAM? if so that would solve my problem

[01:58:07]

wagnerrp:

i'm saying they can all use ECC. i don't know about registered memory

[01:58:55]

LTHorn:

can't mix ecc with not tho

[01:59:02]

wagnerrp:

plut0: when you were talking about iostat, did you mean the application iostat, or the iostat function in zpool?

[01:59:16]

plut0:

hmm that doesn't help. amd desktop boards only go up to 64G

[01:59:26]

plut0:

wagnerrp: iostat from sysstat

[02:00:16]

wagnerrp:

freebsd calls that gstat

[02:00:54]

plut0:

hmm looks like some intel desktops support ecc also

[02:01:22]

wagnerrp:

i've only see that supported on the Xeon versions of the desktop chips

[02:01:40]

wagnerrp:

same exact thing physically, but with some bonus features added in software

[02:02:16]

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[02:04:24]

LTHorn:

+wagnerpp so is there hope?

[02:04:46]

wagnerrp:

i don't know enough about cablecard tuners to know what to suggest

[02:04:53]

wagnerrp:

have you checked the CCI status of those channels?

[02:05:38]

LTHorn:

not yet. I found a script that I was planning to run depending on what I found here

[02:07:34]

plut0:

wagnerrp: running zfs on bsd?

[02:08:01]

wagnerrp:

yes

[02:10:13]

wagnerrp:

difference is gstat defaults to auto-refresh, and breaks things down by partition, not just disk

[02:10:31]

plut0:

never used bsd

[02:10:56]

plut0:

with iostat you can specify which drives/partitions/lvms/etc to watch

[02:13:24]

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skd5aner:

!seen rkulagow

[02:16:21]

MythLogBot:

rkulagow was last seen 1054 days 21 hours 35 minutes 36 seconds ago

[02:16:32]

skd5aner:

ok, he doesn't hang out here anymore :)

[02:17:29]

jm|laptop:

:)

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[03:03:57]

** wagnerrp pokes sphery **

[03:04:28]

LTHorn:

wagnerrp, the script is running and all have shown up as either copy free, or unknown

[03:06:25]

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[03:11:17]

sphery:

wagnerrp: what's up

[03:12:06]

wagnerrp:

could you confirm that this is accurate? http://www.mythtv.org/wiki?title=Talk:Austral . . . ;oldid=59436

[03:13:45]

sphery:

wagnerrp: that sounds right to me

[03:13:56]

sphery:

might want to check with stua rtm, too

[03:14:17]

wagnerrp:

i pinged you and he earlier tonight with that link

[03:15:21]

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[03:15:34]

sphery:

oops, yeah, now I see the earlier ping

[03:15:46]

sphery:

glad you repinged

[03:16:10]

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[03:21:11]

wagnerrp:

may as well ping stuartm again too

[03:25:54]

skd5aner:

LTHorn: what script?

[03:26:40]

skd5aner:

wagnerrp: ask dekarl, he probably knows very well

[03:28:01]

skd5aner:

jy a might know too, being from Aus

[03:28:58]

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[03:43:11]

LTHorn:

skd5aner, http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/487621

[03:43:36]

skd5aner:

ah

[03:43:39]

LTHorn:

new information. when i try to do a channel scan on my backend it sais failed to open the card

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[04:12:10]

skd5aner:

storage group question...

[04:12:59]

wagnerrp:

storage group answer...

[04:13:44]

skd5aner:

If I set up a couple of local disks for recording on a master backend, and a local disk that's set up for recordings on a slave backend, can I prevent the MBE from using the SBE's disk and vice versa?

[04:14:27]

wagnerrp:

all else equal, mythtv will always prefer a local disk over one mounted using nfs/cifs

[04:15:09]

skd5aner:

well, I believe I have it set up to use a mix of availale space, and then load balancing...

[04:15:17]

wagnerrp:

now how that works when things are not equal... i don't know how its weighted

[04:15:29]

wagnerrp:

you can always simply not mount the storage

[04:15:41]

wagnerrp:

the directories won't exist, so neither will try to record to them

[04:15:53]

skd5aner:

or, mount it elswhere....

[04:16:06]

wagnerrp:

of course that won't work if you intend to allow each other perform transcoding tasks, or any other jobs that require direct file access

[04:16:16]

wagnerrp:

commercial flagging can be streamed, and thus does not require file access

[04:17:04]

skd5aner:

ah, I didn't realize that about commflag...

[04:17:28]

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[04:18:41]

wagnerrp:

here we go... http://code.mythtv.org/cgit/mythtv/tree/mytht . . . er.cpp#n4433

[04:19:03]

wagnerrp:

when using the combination scheduler, if one disk is local and the other remote, it will ignore free space and only operate on weighting

[04:19:17]

skd5aner:

wow, pretty easy to follow that actually

[04:19:27]

wagnerrp:

if they're both local, or both remote, freespace is the tie breaker

[04:20:00]

skd5aner:

isn't "local" considered anything that's mounted though?

[04:20:33]

skd5aner:

it's not smart enough to understand physical disk versus networked, at least that's what I thought you had mentioned in the past

[04:20:41]

wagnerrp:

http://code.mythtv.org/cgit/mythtv/tree/mytht . . . nfo.cpp#n243

[04:21:10]

skd5aner:

awesome...

[04:21:39]

skd5aner:

is that new logic? I swear you had told me a few years ago that it wasn't able to make those distinctions

[04:22:35]

wagnerrp:

blame says... me, two years ago :)

[04:22:41]

skd5aner:

heh :)

[04:22:53]

wagnerrp:

i didn't write it though. it was already in there when i reworked the FileSystemInfo class

[04:23:32]

skd5aner:

no worries... I've been going off the assumption that anything that the backend could stream was "non-local" and anythign that was mounted was "local" – thanks for the clarification :)

[04:24:04]

skd5aner:

I kept telling people at the time that it didn't make sense to call "NFS" "local"... and I was always corrected, lol

[04:24:29]

wagnerrp:

did i rip that out of some other file?

[04:24:36]

skd5aner:

well, anyway – ok... I'm wondering what would happen should you have a remote SBE across a WAN

[04:24:45]

skd5aner:

wagnerrp: you mean, at the time???

[04:25:14]

skd5aner:

not that I plan to do so, was just playing through it as a "what if" scenario and how that would impact various configs

[04:25:31]

wagnerrp:

i'm trying to find where that code originally came from

[04:25:35]

wagnerrp:

i may have created that file

[04:25:42]

skd5aner:

:)

[04:27:05]

wagnerrp:

seems i puled it out of libmyth/util.cpp

[04:31:58]

wagnerrp:

it was around at least in 2009... http://code.mythtv.org/cgit/mythtv/commit/myt . . . ?id=7bc28fca

[04:39:12]

skd5aner:

seems like just yesterday ;)

[04:39:17]

skd5aner:

it's almost 2014

[04:39:18]

skd5aner:

!!

[04:39:43]

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[05:08:39]

wagnerrp:

stuartm: looking through the shepherd code, they do seem to support traditional xmltv grabber operation, even if they choose not to use it

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wagnerrp:

could you take it from here?

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[10:15:42]

stuartm:

wagnerrp: yeah that's accurate

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[10:28:30]

solars:

hi, I tried to watch tv on my local machine by connecting the frontend to a remote backend, however the versions mismatch and it doesn't work. what's the easiest way I could still watch tv over the remove backend?

[10:31:57]

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[10:34:05]

stuartm:

it's inaccurate to say that these issues weren't raised with Shepherd devs, one even participated in a discussion about them in mythtv-dev and yet they persist with screwing directly with the MythTV database, and with using cron (it was suggest that they get a 'next suggested runtime' argument added upstream to xmltv instead)

[10:47:23]

stuartm:

even the channel icon behaviour – it was pointed out that xmltv has channel icon support already, but no – instead it downloads and inserts them directly

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lapion:

Hi, if I look in the guide to some past show I missed, I cannot create a recording rule for it to record it in the future..

[16:36:54]

lapion:

it would be nice to be able to look into the past days and select what one would like to record should it ever air again..

[16:37:39]

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[16:38:27]

lapion:

nvm it works allright

[16:38:42]

lapion:

only takes some time to appear in the list of rules

[16:49:37]

wfann:

On my Comcast remote is a button “Guide.” Pushing it once gives me a table. On the top is the time. On the left is the channel number. In the body is the program name for each channel at which ever time.

[16:49:39]

wfann:

Pushing the “Guide” button again selects the channel highlighted and gives column of all of the programs on that channel by time.

[16:49:40]

wfann:

S there a way to do this in the program guide in MythTV?

[16:49:47]

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stuartm:

wfann: not currently, but all the relevant parts are there, it would just need a small amount of code to enable that behaviour

[16:56:32]

wfann:

stuartm – Thank you for your reply. I'll wait until some future release implements the option. :)

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[17:03:42]

stuartm:

you've got both views, the grid/table layout and the list of programs by time on a channel, just not the option to switch between them in the way you describe

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[17:10:40]

wfann:

How would I access the list of programs by time mode in the display?

[17:15:27]

wfann:

Wife is calling me to breakfast. I'll leave the channel open and check back after I've shovelled down some groceries.

[17:19:15]

stuartm:

it's under Search Lists > Channels (a little hidden)

[17:19:42]

stuartm:

you can edit the menus to move it somewhere more accessible

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[17:26:41]

wfann:

stuartm – Again, thank you. I'll play about with the search lists and see what I can find. Time for me to go and get some work done. Again, thanks.

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[18:19:17]

Oleg_:

a mythtv computer can be connected to a Nielsen box, right?

[18:21:33]

Oleg_:

how do people who watch live tv through mythtv get included in Nielsen ratings?

[18:22:02]

Oleg_:

should they buy a Nielsen box if they want to be included in ratings?

[18:22:25]

Oleg_:

what the hell is a Nielsen box anyway?

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[18:29:40]

tgm4883:

Oleg_, AFAIK, you don't buy a nielsen box.

[18:33:29]

tgm4883:

Oleg_, http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/about-us/nielsen-families.html

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[18:45:26]

stuartm:

in a nutshell, a Nielsen box gets given to a representative bunch of complete morons and the data collected is then used to cancel the best, most intelligent and original programming

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ctmjr:

well said

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[18:51:55]

stuartm:

where representative is just 23000 households in a country with over 110 million tv owning households, a quick google shows that 'national' ratings are based on a subset of just 5000 (might be a little higher as the article was a few years old)

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stuartm:

i.e. they sample just 0.00000000001% of the population

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[18:56:07]

stuartm:

that was a sarcastic figure btw, the real one is something like 0.0002%

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[19:12:42]

Oleg_:

ic

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Orcie:

lo I need help on my installation :)

[21:04:08]

Orcie:

got it running and found channels but unable to view tv :)

[21:11:48]

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GreyFoxx:

[21:12:50]

stuartm:

Greg, you need to turn up the volume, we can't hear you

[21:13:10]

Orcie:

hehe

[21:14:12]

GreyFoxx:

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?!?!?1

[21:14:14]

GreyFoxx:

hehe

[21:14:28]

Orcie:

can someone help me?

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