| Tuesday, May 14th, 2013, 00:06 UTC | ||
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| [03:23:29] | k-man: | with the profusion of small computers like the raspberry pi, are there any that are suitable for use as a front end? |
| [03:24:28] | wagnerrp: | "sufficient" starts with a higher end A9 |
| [03:24:44] | k-man: | ok |
| [03:24:45] | wagnerrp: | "suitable" is a traditional dual core x86 |
| [03:24:57] | k-man: | ok, thanks wagnerrp |
| [03:25:10] | wagnerrp: | understand that the RPi is roughly equivalent to the bottom end of the Pentium 2 range |
| [03:25:31] | k-man: | wagnerrp, yeah, i know – but there are other SBCs out there with more CPU |
| [03:25:42] | k-man: | anyway, it was more a general question |
| [03:26:03] | wagnerrp: | at minimum, the RPi simply doesn't have enough memory to run mythfrontend |
| [03:26:19] | wagnerrp: | but you need more CPU to run the UI acceptably |
| [03:26:33] | k-man: | righto |
| [03:26:50] | wagnerrp: | a decent A9 could do it, were the necessary video decoders written that used the decoding hardware |
| [03:26:57] | k-man: | yeah thats one thing about those SBCs is they generaly have a fixed amount of ram |
| [03:27:47] | k-man: | i'll ge wanting to upgrade my frontend at some point, along with when i finally get around to getting an HD tv |
| [03:27:52] | wagnerrp: | they're also generally very expensive |
| [03:28:37] | k-man: | hmm.. sounds like x86 seems to be the way to go still then |
| [03:28:56] | k-man: | whats the generic term for x86 and 64 bit cpus? |
| [03:29:03] | wagnerrp: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_board_com . . . 2C_standards |
| [03:29:13] | wagnerrp: | that's an SBC... i doubt that's what you were referring to |
| [03:29:40] | k-man: | what's the generic term for things like the RPi? |
| [03:29:48] | wagnerrp: | stick? |
| [03:30:16] | k-man: | maybe – i always thought SBC is a single board computer, which in my mind the RPi fits into |
| [03:30:32] | wagnerrp: | typically, it's a single board that slots into a backplane |
| [03:31:00] | wagnerrp: | the backplane provides all I/O expansion slots |
| [03:31:03] | k-man: | wagnerrp, i;m not sure thats a requirement for SBC imho |
| [03:31:08] | wagnerrp: | as opposed to the board doing so |
| [03:33:02] | k-man: | wagnerrp, yeah, agreed some SBCs fit that, but i think SBC is more generic than that |
| [03:33:21] | wagnerrp: | 'The term "Single Board Computer" now generally applies to an architecture where the single board computer is plugged into a backplane to provide for I/O cards.' |
| [03:33:59] | k-man: | at the top of the wikipedia article it basicaly says an SBC is a computer with rom/ram and CPU and io all on one board |
| [03:34:11] | wagnerrp: | well any modern PC fits that bill |
| [03:34:20] | k-man: | yeah true |
| [03:34:43] | k-man: | ok, well, i'm willing to conced that point ;) |
| [03:34:58] | wagnerrp: | and PCs have come with integrated graphics, audio, and networking for a decade, eliminating any need for additional boards |
| [03:37:02] | wagnerrp: | we sell the things for like $10K... although i'm not sure off hand what we buy them for |
| [03:37:33] | wagnerrp: | that much for a lowly P4 and a couple fieldbus cards |
| [03:39:10] | k-man: | interesting |
| [03:44:05] | k-man: | anyway, i might aim for something like a core 2 quad machine instead |
| [03:45:14] | wagnerrp: | for a frontend? |
| [03:45:58] | k-man: | yeah |
| [03:46:46] | wagnerrp: | there's little to no need for a quad-core in a frontend |
| [03:47:01] | wagnerrp: | mpeg2 decoding won't use more than a dual core |
| [03:47:19] | wagnerrp: | and there's rarely any sliced h264 content that a decent dual core can't handle |
| [03:54:35] | k-man: | ok |
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| [03:54:52] | k-man: | but a used quad core is usually not much more than a dual core in my experience |
| [03:55:13] | wagnerrp: | but is a lot louder, and uses a lot more power |
| [03:55:22] | wagnerrp: | two big concerns for something sitting in front of yoru tv |
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| [03:57:13] | k-man: | ah yeah good point |
| [03:57:49] | k-man: | what about cpu speed? |
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| [04:36:01] | [R]: | ffs |
| [04:36:04] | [R]: | i really need to repoint my antenna |
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| [06:36:59] | lapion: | lautriv, apparently it's not the duplicate detector that's the problem, the scanner is currently simply ignoring certain folders |
| [06:45:15] | lapion: | ignore that previous comment, how can I turn off the duplicate detector for the database scanner ? |
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| [08:55:09] | sp00ge: | Morning all. Can anyone give me any pointers or clues as to why my MythTV installation on Fedora 18 will not show the correct information in Recordings in MythWeb ? |
| [08:55:32] | sp00ge: | I'm seeing errors such as "2013-05–14 09:53:38.824707 E GetPreviewImage: No recording for '1003_2013-05–13T18:30:00Z'" |
| [08:56:13] | sp00ge: | I'm guessing the recording names shouldn't have the T and Z in the name, but can't work out where to fix that |
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| [09:54:34] | sp00ge: | Hmm, it looks like the filename that MythTV is trying to access is truncated compared to the file on disk |
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| [09:55:57] | sp00ge: | GetPreviewImage: No recording for '1003_2013-05–13T18:30:00Z' should actually be trying to access 11003_20130513183000.mpg ? |
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| [10:49:43] | sirhcjw: | hey I am having some issues with CentOS 6.4 and MythTV backend |
| [10:50:14] | sirhcjw: | i have got my tuner working and can watch tv with mplayer no probs |
| [10:51:41] | sirhcjw: | this is the error I am getting |
| [10:51:43] | sirhcjw: | Protocol version check failure. |
| [10:51:44] | sirhcjw: | The response to MYTH_PROTO_VERSION was empty. |
| [10:51:44] | sirhcjw: | This happens when the backend is too busy to respond, |
| [10:51:44] | sirhcjw: | or has deadlocked due to bugs or hardware failure. |
| [10:51:44] | sirhcjw: | 2013-05–14 20:36:37.052776 I MythCoreContext: Connecting to backend server: 192.168.0.5:6543 (try 1 of 1) |
| [10:51:45] | sirhcjw: | 2013-05–14 20:36:44.054015 E MythSocket(1137430:85): readStringList: Error, timed out after 7000 ms. |
| [10:55:48] | stuartm: | is the backend definitely running? |
| [10:55:55] | sirhcjw: | yes |
| [10:56:03] | stuartm: | have you tried restarting it? |
| [10:56:19] | sirhcjw: | yes |
| [10:56:42] | sirhcjw: | i am just running it in a terminal so i can see the output |
| [10:57:12] | sirhcjw: | i am not running it at root but that should be fine as far as I have read |
| [10:57:52] | stuartm: | yeah that's OK |
| [10:58:05] | sirhcjw: | mythfilldatabase and the frontend both give the same error |
| [10:58:21] | stuartm: | what addresses does the backend show it's listening on when it stars up? "Listening on TCP" etc |
| [10:58:57] | sirhcjw: | localhost + the localip of the server |
| [10:59:16] | sirhcjw: | plus a couple of ipv6 ips |
| [10:59:31] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: any firewalls running that might be getting in the way? |
| [10:59:51] | sirhcjw: | npoe |
| [11:00:22] | wagnerrp: | why do people still insist on running 32-bit? |
| [11:00:31] | stuartm: | point a browser at 192.168.0.5:6544 – do you get anything? |
| [11:01:05] | sirhcjw: | nothing |
| [11:01:31] | stuartm: | which distro? |
| [11:01:45] | wagnerrp: | sirhcjw: did you just let the backend run on boot? or have you restarted since? |
| [11:02:00] | sirhcjw: | resatrted a few times |
| [11:02:02] | wagnerrp: | is it possible the IP address was not yet available when your init scripts started mythbackend? |
| [11:02:09] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: there's some idiot notion that 32bit is somehow more stable and that 64bit doesn't offer real performance improvements |
| [11:02:18] | wagnerrp: | could we see the logs from your backend? |
| [11:02:52] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: pastebin.com the output from netstat -atunp (you can post just the lines relating to myth) |
| [11:04:24] | stuartm: | the irony is that since 99.9% of all developers would have switched to 64bit several years ago, 32bit builds are far more likely to be broken than 64bit |
| [11:04:36] | sp00ge: | wagnerrp, or stuartm, can you offer any wisdom on where to start looking to troubleshoot my issue ? |
| [11:04:51] | sirhcjw: | it should be fine on centos 6.4 right? |
| [11:05:13] | sp00ge: | mythweb is not finding the correct recording information and I can see it's looking for GetPreviewImage: No recording for '1003_2013-05–13T18:30:00Z' |
| [11:05:34] | sp00ge: | when I presume it should be looking for 11003_20130513183000.mpg ? |
| [11:05:40] | wagnerrp: | sp00ge: that filename looks fine |
| [11:05:46] | stuartm: | sp00ge: I don't know much about mythweb unfortunately, what version are you running and does the version of mythweb match that of mythbackend? |
| [11:05:51] | wagnerrp: | why would you think it was truncated? |
| [11:06:03] | sp00ge: | because the chanid is actually 11003 |
| [11:06:31] | stuartm: | wagnerrp: he means the error message "No recording for '1003_2013-05–13T18:30:00Z'" |
| [11:06:43] | sirhcjw: | wagnerrp, http://pastebin.com/Adw8d5h3 |
| [11:07:02] | sp00ge: | I'm running 0.26.0–8.fc18 from RPMFusion |
| [11:07:08] | stuartm: | which at best is confusing, it should show the filename not a mangled chanid/datetime string |
| [11:07:52] | wagnerrp: | sirhcjw: could we see logs? |
| [11:08:36] | sirhcjw: | suare |
| [11:08:38] | sp00ge: | stuartm, to answer your question, mythweb is pulled in from rpmfusion as well |
| [11:08:40] | sirhcjw: | in pastebin |
| [11:08:49] | stuartm: | well it's listening and accepting connections, just not responding so backend logs are definitely required |
| [11:08:57] | sirhcjw: | k |
| [11:09:12] | sp00ge: | I noticed it was only 0.26.0–3.fc18 so I tried grabbing latest version from git and it's exactly the same |
| [11:09:44] | stuartm: | sp00ge: which version of php? May be related somehow |
| [11:10:00] | sirhcjw: | http://pastebin.com/aCka2ZhY |
| [11:10:50] | sp00ge: | stuartm, php 5.4.14.1.fc18 |
| [11:10:58] | wagnerrp: | looks like the wrong log file |
| [11:11:14] | wagnerrp: | these logs claim it could not find any ipv6 addresses |
| [11:11:19] | wagnerrp: | but something sure is listening on them |
| [11:11:25] | sirhcjw: | yeah i just turned them off |
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| [11:14:27] | sp00ge: | stuartm, i've also noticed if I try to schedule a recording from mythweb, it doesn't show it has scheduled it but the recording rule exists |
| [11:15:08] | stuartm: | sp00ge: ok, that's not too old, or too new – I'm out of ideas for now, as I said before mythweb isn't really my area and I know it's working fine on my production box |
| [11:15:28] | stuartm: | sp00ge: what's the output of mythbackend --version ? |
| [11:15:49] | stuartm: | could be that fedora is shipping an older version of 0.26 which doesn't include a fix |
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| [11:18:04] | sp00ge: | stuartm, MythTV Version : 0.26.0–8.fc18 (v0.26.0-149-g5f45c0b) |
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| [11:18:25] | sp00ge: | and thanks stuartm, appreciate the help |
| [11:18:45] | stuartm: | that's a week or two old, so again that should be fine :/ |
| [11:20:29] | sp00ge: | yeh, finding it hard to pinpoint where the problem is |
| [11:21:41] | sirhcjw: | can i turn on some verbose logging? |
| [11:21:47] | stuartm: | actually, that's interesting, there haven't been any fixes backported to 0.26 since the release candidate |
| [11:22:10] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: you could try -v network |
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| [11:22:45] | stuartm: | kormoc: xris: Any thoughts on sp00ge's problem? |
| [11:22:53] | sp00ge: | apache logs just show lots of >> [Tue May 14 12:13:14.155236 2013] [:error] [pid 19739] [client 10.23.1.10:34963] PHP Warning: Unknown: function '0' not found or invalid function name in Unknown on line 0, referer: http://blackie/mythweb/tv/recorded |
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| [11:24:25] | sirhcjw: | nothing |
| [11:24:34] | sirhcjw: | this is really quite annoying |
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| [11:29:37] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: -v network --loglevel debug |
| [11:30:40] | stuartm: | sp00ge: that's the most useful error message I've ever seen :) "Something not found somewhere in some file" |
| [11:34:28] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: agreed, it's a strange one and those are always the most infuriating |
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| [11:35:03] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: does 127.0.0.1:6544 in a browser show anything? |
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| [11:47:58] | sirhcjw: | nope nothing on localhost either |
| [11:49:24] | sirhcjw: | if i am going to run mythbackend as mythtv |
| [11:49:33] | sirhcjw: | do i run the setup as root |
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| [12:09:39] | sp00ge: | stuartm, I know. Gives me nothing to go on |
| [12:10:04] | sirhcjw: | I think i have figured it out |
| [12:10:13] | sirhcjw: | i had nto set a pin code |
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| [12:15:26] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: ok thanks for letting us know, we should definitely be printing out a more informative error message there :/ |
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| [12:17:28] | sp00ge: | hmm, stuartm with the recent changes for MythTV to use UTC for storing date/time. Should PHP&MySQL also be set to use UTC timezone ? or my local timezone i.e. london ? |
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| [12:18:32] | stuartm: | sp00ge: mysql needs the timezone table populated, but doesn't need to be configured to use UTC (we do that at runtime) |
| [12:18:49] | stuartm: | as far as php goes ... again I don't know the answer |
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| [12:20:55] | sp00ge: | stuartm, the timezone table is populated. I might try forcing php to UTC just to test |
| [12:22:43] | sirhcjw: | when i am scaning my channels |
| [12:23:18] | sirhcjw: | i was able to use scan and the info for my area to create a channels.conf that works wiht mplayer |
| [12:23:40] | sirhcjw: | should i be importing that when I tune my card |
| [12:27:15] | sp00ge: | o.k. forcing php to UTC doesn't make any difference |
| [12:30:15] | toeb: | sirhcjw: if you want to use eit you shoul do a full scan with mythtv-setup, afaik channels.conf import does not provide all data to use the eit scanner... but i don't know if this is still the case... it was when i did my setup... |
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| [12:41:25] | sirhcjw: | stuartm: nah it wasnt taht |
| [12:41:31] | sirhcjw: | still no good |
| [12:44:49] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: you should be able to scan within MythTV, you _can_ import a channels.conf but it doesn't actually include all the necessary information for features like EIT (OTA EPG) |
| [12:45:00] | stuartm: | oops, toeb already said that |
| [12:45:07] | sirhcjw: | ok thanks |
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| [12:45:18] | sirhcjw: | i am still back on the other issue now |
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| [12:46:13] | stuartm: | sirhcjw: are you using selinux or anything like that? |
| [12:46:19] | sirhcjw: | no |
| [12:46:49] | sirhcjw: | selinux is disabled |
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| [14:23:55] | bill6502: | sp00ge: The timestamp format is OK, the error is firing in the Services API which expects the format that's printing in the error message. An example sent to my backend displays the preview (png): |
| [14:24:00] | bill6502: | http://mc1:6544/Content/GetPreviewImage?ChanI . . . 13T23:28:00Z |
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| [15:18:19] | sp00ge: | Hi bill6502 |
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| [15:22:28] | bill6502: | Hey, the Services API thing is just a test. but it is used by mythweb. I suspect your thought about an incorrect chanid is the root cause. You should be able to generate the same error by plugging in 1003 and not get it with 11003. |
| [15:22:50] | sp00ge: | I've just tried http://blackie:6544/Content/GetPreviewImage?C . . . 13T19:00:01Z |
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| [15:23:09] | sp00ge: | but get page cannot be found |
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| [15:25:27] | bill6502: | try again without the seconds e.g. 19:00Z |
| [15:26:10] | sp00ge: | corrected it to the right ChanId and still get page cannot be found |
| [15:26:41] | sp00ge: | http://blackie:6544/Content/GetPreviewImage?C . . . 05-13T19:00Z |
| [15:26:46] | sp00ge: | still page cannot be found |
| [15:27:21] | sp00ge: | http://blackie:6544/ does return the backend web page to confirm it's up and running |
| [15:27:55] | bill6502: | and there is a .png file with that timestamp? Perhaps in /var/lib/mythtv/recordings (or wherever you keep your recordings.) |
| [15:29:08] | sp00ge: | yes |
| [15:29:12] | sp00ge: | -rw-rw-rw- 1 root root 81K May 13 20:00 11003_20130513183000.mpg.png |
| [15:29:21] | sp00ge: | hmm wrong one |
| [15:30:16] | sp00ge: | But yes there are 2 .png files for that chanid datetime |
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| [15:30:34] | sp00ge: | -rw-rw-rw- 1 mythtv mythtv 241K May 14 12:01 11003_20130513190000.mpg.-1.530x300.png |
| [15:30:34] | sp00ge: | -rw-rw-rw- 1 mythtv mythtv 104K May 14 12:00 11003_20130513190000.mpg.png |
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| [15:31:10] | sp00ge: | Although I might have manually generated them, as I was trying the mythpreviewgen program manually first to see if that worked |
| [15:33:56] | bill6502: | looking at the backklog to see if you pasted any backend logs |
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| [15:36:39] | sp00ge: | Not really yet. |
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| [15:37:17] | sp00ge: | Funnily enough I've just set something to record, which is on chanid 2054 |
| [15:37:21] | sp00ge: | 2013-05–14 16:34:48.587596 I Tuning recording: "The Gadget Show": channel 2054 on cardid 1, sourceid 1 |
| [15:37:21] | sp00ge: | 2013-05–14 16:34:56.445362 I Updating status for "The Gadget Show" on cardid 1 (Tuning => Recording) |
| [15:37:38] | sp00ge: | 2013-05–14 16:34:56.513971 I TVRec(1): rec->GetPathname(): '/mnt/TV-Drives/200GB/Recordings/2054_20130514153500.mpg' |
| [15:37:41] | sp00ge: | yet |
| [15:37:53] | sp00ge: | when I go into Recordings in MythWeb i see the following error |
| [15:38:08] | sp00ge: | 2013-05–14 16:35:38.338460 E GetPreviewImage: No recording for '1054_2013-05–14T16:00:00Z' |
| [15:38:24] | sp00ge: | so it's asking for chanid 1054 from MythWeb |
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| [15:43:17] | sp00ge: | Ahh, so i've managed to get the backend to give me a png by using the following |
| [15:43:19] | sp00ge: | http://blackie:6544/Content/GetPreviewImage?C . . . 14T15:35:00Z |
| [15:43:33] | sp00ge: | which matches the filename |
| [15:45:24] | bill6502: | Perhaps a progstart vs. starttime issue. I'm on 0.27-pre, but I get previews on the "Recorded Programs" page OK. |
| [15:46:46] | sp00ge: | bill6502, similar to what I was thinking ! It looks like MythWeb is referencing the endtime for the png generation |
| [15:47:02] | sp00ge: | Still unsure why it gets the chanid wrong |
| [15:48:16] | sp00ge: | But yes to confirm. In MythWeb Recordings it shows the following for that recording |
| [15:48:18] | sp00ge: | Tue May 14, 2013 (05:00 PM) |
| [15:48:36] | sp00ge: | As the Air Date |
| [15:49:10] | sp00ge: | Considering the database stores in UTC and i'm in BST then that actually is the correct End Time and not Start |
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| [15:52:45] | sp00ge: | Although I don't have a clue on where to go from here |
| [15:52:53] | bill6502: | Do you do something similar to this: LANG=$LANG LC_CTYPE=$LANG in your backend startup script/config? |
| [15:53:23] | bill6502: | Ignore that. |
| [15:53:33] | sp00ge: | ? |
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| [15:55:02] | sp00ge: | I'm just using the standard startup script that was provided by the RPMFusion package |
| [15:55:13] | sp00ge: | Had a quick look and no reference to any language variables |
| [15:59:51] | bill6502: | Can you look in: <your mythweb directory>/classes/Database.php around line 125? Is there a line that looks like this: $dbh->query('SET time_zone="+0:00";'); |
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| [16:06:24] | sp00ge: | bill6502, yes |
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| [16:13:44] | bill6502: | That (sample of one line) suggests the correct version of mythweb. Running out of ideas for me. If you want to pastebin your backend log beginning with the most recent line that looks similar to this: mythbackend version: master [v0.27-pre2-1042-g38608a4] www.mythtv.org, I'll look for any clues, but others may spot something too. |
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| [16:21:01] | sp00ge: | bill6502, sure I'll restart mythbackend with debug logging and pastebin the log |
| [16:21:22] | sp00ge: | Any actions you want me to do whilst that's happening ? i.e. set recording and then try view recordings in mythweb ? |
| [16:21:33] | sp00ge: | I'll also clear out old recordings |
| [16:29:30] | sp00ge: | bill6502, backend log is here -> http://pastebin.com/1tDf5eWL |
| [16:29:36] | sp00ge: | Thanks for your time on this |
| [16:33:06] | sp00ge: | Let me know if there is anything else I can do or submit |
| [16:46:44] | bill6502: | sp00ge: Sorry, away for a bit. Good log. The only suggesting would be adding -v upnp. The reason is to verify what mythweb is sending to the Services API in the timestamp being reported in the error message (before printing it, it gets run through a MakeUniqueKey routine and I honestly don't know if that is altering the timestamp before printing. |
| [16:54:49] | bill6502: | I did check my backend logs that go back to May of 2012 and I have 9 GetPreviewImage failures. They happened in two 1 minute clusters. However, the chanids were valid 4 digit numbers. |
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| [17:35:41] | dekarl: | stuartm: you can import channels.conf? I thought that is broken for 2–3 releases now |
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| [18:05:38] | bitHipy: | what ever happened to the convention of putting the relevant newsgroup in the topic? |
| [18:05:50] | bitHipy: | alt.video.ptv.mythtv should be in the topic |
| [18:07:22] | bitHipy: | "Piracy will not be tolerated" <- WTF. Sure, freenode has rules, but a zero-tolarance policy is a bit neocon |
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| [18:57:02] | dekarl: | bitHipy: which server carries it? I can see various alt.video.ptv groups but no mythtv |
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| [19:00:52] | BabThooka: | Is it normal for the metadata fetcher for the video gallery to fetch the cover art for only some of the movies? |
| [19:01:12] | BabThooka: | I mean automatically fetch from themoviedb.org? |
| [19:03:16] | dekarl: | BabThooka: yes. two random reasons of the top of my head a) because some movies have no posters in the db, b) the automatic match is tuned to avoid false matches |
| [19:06:14] | BabThooka: | OK, I check the movies in themoviedb.org for which I am fetching data, and I see that they all have cover art present, so that one is ruled off (for now). Is there any way I can work around option b)? (without having to manually do things myself)? |
| [19:10:46] | dekarl: | How should that work? Either the script finds a unique and good match or it finds multiple candidates for you to choose from. The only "do nothing" would be "show any picture that somehow can be related to the title" which sounds wrong |
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| [19:21:01] | BabThooka: | Well, I thought that if the cover art is present on themoviedb.org, the assumption was that it was OK. That's also the reason I was wondering why some of the cover art didn't get fetched while some other did… I guess I'll have to do this manually, then. |
| [19:21:59] | dekarl: | bitHipy: what good is a news group with one post since new year? Feel free to add it to the wiki, but I don't see much point in directing people to a dead place |
| [19:22:33] | dekarl: | BabThooka: did the video get matched to the movie at themoviedb? |
| [19:23:23] | BabThooka: | Yes. It retrieved plot text, actors, director and such data, just not the cover art. |
| [19:26:06] | dekarl: | does manually allowing updates and starting an update fix it? |
| [19:28:09] | BabThooka: | That is actually the only way I can manage to fetch any data, so that's what I do for each and every single one of my movies... |
| [19:28:33] | BabThooka: | I don't have that many either... |
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| [19:50:32] | bitHipy: | dekarl: if the newsgroup is dead, it's because no one is being directed there |
| [19:51:27] | bitHipy: | newsgroups are de facto standard forums to discuss, independant of private 3rd parties |
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| [20:03:11] | bitHipy: | dekarl: btw, alt.video.ptv.mythtv is carried by aioe.org |
| [20:10:49] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I don't see why newsgroups would be the de facto standard now |
| [20:11:07] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, perhaps the antiquated de facto standard |
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| [20:30:49] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: newsgroups are the only place where you can asynchronously discuss the /whole/ of a topic |
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| [20:31:24] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, the /whole/ of a topic? There is no other place? |
| [20:32:18] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: i cannot cite mythtv examples, because i don't know where mythtv users would go other than alt.video.ptv.mythtv |
| [20:32:33] | bitHipy: | but if there is a place, it probably has a jurisdiction |
| [20:33:18] | bitHipy: | and as such, rules of that particular jurisdiction would block conversation from those in other jurisdictions |
| [20:33:29] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I still don't understand why newsgroups are the "best" place |
| [20:34:55] | bitHipy: | E.g. consider the U.S., where you have the strictest rules in the world. There is no DMCA in Europe, but Europeans would be blocked from discussing encryption breaking schemes that paying subscribers might be interested in |
| [20:35:37] | bitHipy: | it's a long-winded example, but the bottom line is that a privately owned forum always blocks topic-related chatter of various sorts |
| [20:35:44] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, out of curiosity, was it you we were having a discussion regarding using CDR's for archiving? |
| [20:36:02] | bitHipy: | yes |
| [20:36:27] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, ah ok. I'll concede this discussion then |
| [20:36:29] | stuartm: | usenet isn't floating in some magical hinterland out of reach of laws and law enforcement, posts can and regularly do get removed from servers. Maybe not the servers of other jurisdictions but that pretty much nullifies the argument that you can see the whole topic |
| [20:37:10] | bitHipy: | stuartm: i don't see how "that pretty much nullifies the argument that you can see the whole topic" |
| [20:37:28] | stuartm: | the few remaining usenet servers are actually hosted in countries where the laws aren't really enforced (but it's usually still illegal to impune copyright etc) |
| [20:37:36] | bitHipy: | if people can discuss what's legal in their respective jurisdiction, then that's complete |
| [20:38:29] | bitHipy: | stuartm: indeed, violating copyright is nearly a universal matter — but not the DMCA |
| [20:38:34] | bitHipy: | (for example) |
| [20:38:41] | stuartm: | they can discuss it, but only those in the same jurisdiction could see it |
| [20:39:38] | bitHipy: | another example: MacOS forums in the US block discussion of hackintoshes b/c hackintoshes violate the DMCA.. but they are quite legal in Europe |
| [20:40:17] | bitHipy: | stuartm: i agree, the discussion alone is often legal — but admins won't have it, generally |
| [20:40:38] | bitHipy: | and that's what matters.. not the actual law, but the rules that decide what can be discussed |
| [20:40:43] | tgm4883: | all that aside, that still doesn't make newsgroups > other things |
| [20:40:54] | stuartm: | I thought you were arguing that everyone could post/read everything, which hasn't really ever been true – I had a mate who worked for Planet Online, they were the actual ISP behind most UK ISPs in the late nineties and early 00s, they ended up killing their usenet servers because they generated far too much work with all the takedown requests (yes, even before the DCMA etc there were legal requests to remove content) |
| [20:42:02] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: it's not a matter of what's "better". it's completeness |
| [20:42:25] | bitHipy: | newsgroups don't exclude. privately run walled gardens do |
| [20:42:53] | bitHipy: | IRC users are largely a global crowd |
| [20:43:27] | stuartm: | of course back then the content that had to be removed was stuff like libel, terrorist discussion, illegal pornography and violations of things like the official secrets act |
| [20:43:31] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, are we talking about pay newgroups now? |
| [20:43:59] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: no, i've not heard of "pay newgroups".. what's that? |
| [20:44:13] | stuartm: | binary newsgroups were pretty much limited to photographs and even then, they were sometimes split into multiple parts ...! |
| [20:44:25] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: by "privately run walled gardens", i am talking about web-based forums |
| [20:46:02] | stuartm: | bitHipy: there are 'privately run walled garden' newsgroups too, basically a usenet server where the content isn't synced with other usenet servers and you pay a fee to access it |
| [20:46:09] | bitHipy: | stuartm: indeed, newsgroups still have some form of censorship, but it's not the disruptive variety of censorship — not like the kind that's rampant in walled gardens |
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| [20:47:25] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, what you are talking about has less to do with "walled garden" (which technically most forums aren't) and more with where the servers are located |
| [20:47:31] | bitHipy: | stuartm: right.. and I would not advocate a moderated newsgroup either.. although it's all relative |
| [20:48:06] | bitHipy: | afaik, alt.video.ptv.mythtv is free |
| [20:48:11] | stuartm: | anyway, circling back to the start, yes piracy (discussion of how to, enabling of etc) is verboten here, not just for legal reasons but moral ones too |
| [20:48:23] | bitHipy: | gratis, certainly, but also free as in libre |
| [20:49:05] | tgm4883: | so I still think forums > newsgroups |
| [20:49:41] | bitHipy: | stuartm: you shouldn't use the word "piracy" in the sense that you are. It's a political word that equates those who share with those who rape and pillage |
| [20:49:45] | wylie (wylie!~wylie@ip72-208-123-25.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [20:50:12] | ** tgm4883 rolls eyes ** | |
| [20:50:14] | stuartm: | and if I could stop people discussing in in alt.video.ptv.mythtv too then I would, since it reflects badly on mythtv as a project – a few years back MythTV was expressly mentioned in a New York Times article about piracy, despite the fact that MythTV isn't intended for and doesn't condone piracy of any kind |
| [20:50:16] | bitHipy: | stuartm: but don't blur the lines between copyright and backing up |
| [20:50:37] | bitHipy: | stuartm: in some countries, consumers have a *right* to backup their purchases |
| [20:51:52] | stuartm: | bitHipy: I'm not – I've ripped all of my bluray, dvd and cds :) That's not 'piracy', but downloading a torrent of a film etc is and that's not allowed here, in the mythtv mailing lists or wiki |
| [20:51:59] | bitHipy: | stuartm: indeed corporations who hold copyrights have reason to see mythtv as a threat.. users get more control and can cut out commercials |
| [20:53:26] | bitHipy: | stuartm: it's very unlikely that you have not violated the DMCA. You would be banned from most US-based forums for discussing how to break the encryption of your discs to back them up |
| [20:53:55] | bitHipy: | most commercial DVDs and BDs are encrypted |
| [20:54:23] | stuartm: | maybe, but we don't forbid that here, except that it's not really on-topic so we might direct people elsewhere |
| [20:54:37] | ** tgm4883 wonders what that has to do with newsgroups ** | |
| [20:55:35] | bitHipy: | stuartm: indeed, but sometimes legal matters *are* related to the topic. E.g. someone wants a capture device with decryption capability that works with mythtv.. that would be mythtv related |
| [20:55:49] | stuartm: | tgm4883: looks like this started with the channel topic which states 'Piracy will not be tolerated', it's a bit blunt I'll admit but there wasn't much space for a more detailed list of forbidden topics |
| [20:55:57] | bitHipy: | but in a US-based forum,such a thread would be locked |
| [20:56:34] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, there will *never* be an "official place to discuss mythtv related things that are illegal in the US" |
| [20:57:04] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: there already is: alt.video.ptv.mythtv |
| [20:57:20] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, is that run by the mythtv developers? |
| [20:57:27] | stuartm: | bitHipy: allowed here, but only if it concerns a legally obtained smart card and CAM, doesn't violate the service T&Cs – softcam is disallowed |
| [20:57:48] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: the beauty of newsgroups is they don't need anyone to "run" them |
| [20:57:51] | stuartm: | tgm4883: no |
| [20:58:01] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, is that listed anywhere on the mythtv.org website? |
| [20:58:03] | stuartm: | bitHipy: his point is that it's not 'official' |
| [20:58:48] | bitHipy: | stuartm: sure, that's his claim, but what's "official"? it's not a government matter either way |
| [20:59:06] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, official would be what is stated as such by the core mythtv developers |
| [20:59:07] | bitHipy: | stuartm: anyone can make claims about what they think is "official" |
| [20:59:15] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, no, no they cannot |
| [20:59:30] | bitHipy: | Usenet is a convention |
| [20:59:41] | bitHipy: | it's where people go without depending on a private party |
| [21:00:29] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: how many developers need to sponsor alt.video.ptv.mythtv before it's official, in your mind? |
| [21:00:46] | bitHipy: | one? |
| [21:00:48] | bitHipy: | all? |
| [21:00:54] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, it would need to be listed on mythtv.org |
| [21:01:10] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, since that would be the starting place anyone would go to for mythtv related stuff |
| [21:01:11] | bitHipy: | ah, so the guy who controls the web server |
| [21:02:05] | bitHipy: | that's back at the original problem.. a single controller controlling the walled garden |
| [21:02:18] | bitHipy: | it's a shame the net has taken that direction |
| [21:02:22] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means |
| [21:03:06] | bitHipy: | it's an environment that's controlled.. one or a couple masters, who hold the keys |
| [21:03:14] | bitHipy: | who says what goes and what doesn't |
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| [21:03:49] | bitHipy: | they bounce those that don't fit their model of a model netizen |
| [21:04:01] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, yes that is correct. The mythtv developers get to decide what their official support/dev channels are |
| [21:04:40] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: how many? one? all? |
| [21:04:54] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, just because you don't like "the man" doesn't make it any less true |
| [21:05:11] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, it's irrelevant how many |
| [21:05:15] | SteveGoodey (SteveGoodey!~steve@host86-140-98-12.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | |
| [21:05:18] | bitHipy: | if one mythtv dev decides his official support channel is alt.video.ptv.mythtv, does that make it official, in your mind? |
| [21:05:19] | stuartm: | the 'ideal' you're describing sounds a lot like anarchy, where does the line get drawn – are spammers, fraudsters etc allowed to run free? The useful content would quickly get drowned out by the noise |
| [21:05:50] | bitHipy: | stuartm: of course, there are problems in all communities |
| [21:06:33] | bitHipy: | stuartm: but the walled garden in one jurisdiction is a lousy community to impose on the globe |
| [21:06:35] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, if that mythtv developer has enough standing to say that, then yes |
| [21:07:05] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: but actually, someone else controls the IRC topic.. maybe they disagree |
| [21:07:45] | stuartm: | it's so much worse online precisely because of a layer of anonymity and automation, people do and say things they wouldn't dream of doing or are not possible to do in the 'real' world |
| [21:07:48] | bitHipy: | so what's "officially recognized" here is really whatever #mythtv-users admin say, whether they are devs or not |
| [21:08:15] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, whatever you say |
| [21:08:53] | Steve-Goodey (Steve-Goodey!~steve@host86-140-98-12.range86-140.btcentralplus.com) has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | |
| [21:09:08] | bitHipy: | stuartm: i have a decade of experience in both usenet and the walled gardens. I've seen far more abuse of power in the walled gardens than abuse from newsgroup participants |
| [21:09:28] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, 'abuse', according to you |
| [21:09:32] | bitHipy: | stuartm: this is why i have returned to usenet |
| [21:10:06] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: of course according to me, it's my opinion and my opinion alone that matters when I'm making a decision for myself |
| [21:11:39] | stuartm: | bitHipy: well in this instance I'd have to say that mostly because usenet has been largely unused/bypassed in the last decade, most people are completely unaware of it's existence and trolls etc don't usually want to waste their time playing to a tiny audience, I used usenet heavily during the 90s but it was a lot busier then, it's pretty much dead now (in comparison) |
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| [21:12:52] | bitHipy: | stuartm: yeah, it's a shame it's largely dead. Some of the geek oriented groups are still live, but it's a sparse land |
| [21:13:58] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I'm only discussing this from the POV of what would be considered an official channel and de facto standard |
| [21:14:26] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, you can use whatever you want for support, but whine when usenets aren't displayed in the IRC channel |
| [21:14:49] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: usenet has been the convention, because it doesn't exclude people.. it's trully global |
| [21:15:26] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, generally, mailing lists/forums/irc doesn't exclude people either |
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| [21:16:50] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: they exclude by way of controlling the topic. e.g. if you go to emaildiscussions.com (the active forum for email service discussion) you are excluded if you want to discuss politics |
| [21:16:51] | stuartm: | having said that, back in those days most people were more polite on the internet generally, I think that was partly because people initially behaved online as they would do in the real world and also because there were fewer young adults (kids) online too, but once the wall of social restraint broke down it pretty much became a free for all online – many people now won't think twice about swearing at, threatening and generally abusing |
| [21:16:52] | stuartm: | others online which is a shame, they are also happy to say whatever comes to mind without stopping to think about it first |
| [21:17:37] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, yes, topics are excluded, not people. If people can't follow the given rules for X, then they should be excluded from X as well |
| [21:18:19] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: people who intend to discuss politics on emaildiscussions.com are excluded |
| [21:18:52] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, 1) wtf is emaildiscussions.com, 2) why are we talking about that and not something relevant like the mythtv mailing lists |
| [21:18:54] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: it doesn't really do any good to use semantics to say the exclusion isn't happening |
| [21:19:19] | stuartm: | there are plenty of politics forums to discuss politics, the point of 'topics' is to make it easier for people to find the information they want and not need to wade through hundreds of posts by people discussing anything from their pets through to conspiracy theories on a forum for discussing gardening |
| [21:19:23] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, if I agree that exclusion is happening, will it suffice to say that I don't care? |
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| [21:19:57] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: "If people can't follow the given rules for X, then they should be excluded from X as well" <= i agree, and this makes X unsuitable for a full discussion |
| [21:20:15] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, so? |
| [21:20:32] | bitHipy: | emaildiscussions.com created division.. and this is what walled gardens do |
| [21:20:58] | bitHipy: | divided communities make for a lousy "official" community |
| [21:21:20] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, let me just parrot what stuartm said |
| [21:21:30] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, "<stuartm> there are plenty of politics forums to discuss politics, the point of 'topics' is to make it easier for people to find the information they want and not need to wade through hundreds of posts by people discussing anything from their pets through to conspiracy theories on a forum for discussing gardening" |
| [21:21:45] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, if you can't understand that, then I don't see why we are having this discussion |
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| [21:22:44] | stuartm: | right, now for some irony, this discussion has run it's course, it's OFF-TOPIC and I don't think it's fair to inflict it on others who are here to discuss mythtv :) |
| [21:22:56] | tgm4883: | stuartm, agreed |
| [21:23:19] | bitHipy: | stuartm: politics is very much in email service. |
| [21:23:39] | bitHipy: | stuartm: i can appreciate the topic separation when appropriate |
| [21:24:14] | bitHipy: | stuartm: you have email providers sharing information with governments.. that's very political and contentious |
| [21:24:41] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, out of curiosity, what do you run mythtv on? |
| [21:24:56] | tgm4883: | what OS I mean |
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| [21:25:30] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: i'm not running it because my hardware driver does not compile on the latest debian kernal |
| [21:25:46] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, ah, so your a debian guy then? |
| [21:26:03] | bitHipy: | i run debian among many OSs |
| [21:26:20] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, cool deal, just wanted to know a bit about your background |
| [21:27:00] | tgm4883: | stuartm, bitHipy if the topic does get changed, can we put a link to mythbuntu.org in there since it's the de facto standard for running mythtv? |
| [21:27:33] | stuartm: | tgm4883: :p |
| [21:29:38] | bitHipy: | i thought there was a mythtv live cd of its own.. i don't recall it being ubuntu based |
| [21:29:53] | bitHipy: | wasn't it called knoppymyth or something? |
| [21:30:51] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, it was, which then switched to linhes. Mythbuntu also has a live cd |
| [21:30:58] | stuartm: | there's no official distribution, knoppmyth (knoppix based), mythbuntu and mythdora (fedora) were all created by third parties |
| [21:31:37] | stuartm: | the mythtv project only supplies the MythTV suite of software itself |
| [21:32:00] | tgm4883: | but if there was one distro that was to be the de facto standard, it should be mythbuntu :) |
| [21:33:09] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I'm just saying, I don't think the topic should change. But if it does, I wouldn't be upset if a link to Mythbuntu was put in there |
| [21:33:12] | sp00ge: | bill6502, no problem, was away myself too. I've uploaded a new log with -v upnp here -> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5665830/ |
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| [21:34:27] | bitHipy: | the danger there is that you pin down Mythbuntu as offically supported, then non-Mythbuntu users who come here will get excluded by someone (perhaps uninformed) telling them to get lost for not having a supportable installation |
| [21:34:59] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, why can't it be the de facto standard though? (like you want to make newsgroups) |
| [21:36:01] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: i don't set the standard – but i would object given the vote on the grounds that I stated.. some would get excluded |
| [21:36:38] | bitHipy: | of course, that matter is orthoganol to an official medium for asynchronous chatter |
| [21:37:44] | bitHipy: | it's a problem in some freenode channels |
| [21:38:26] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I think the fact that the newsgroup you are talking about is lacking users is the definition of a barrier to entry |
| [21:38:42] | bitHipy: | someone looking for support goes to a channel that has the right crowd but gets bounced for not conforming rigidly to a narrow topic |
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| [21:39:20] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: there's no barrier — in fact, the newsgroup is begging for action |
| [21:39:28] | bitHipy: | it's starving for entrants |
| [21:39:33] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, exactly |
| [21:39:38] | bitHipy: | and no one is excluded |
| [21:39:48] | tgm4883: | why would anyone go somewhere for help if there is nobody to help them |
| [21:40:08] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: i'm there |
| [21:40:13] | bitHipy: | ready to help |
| [21:40:26] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, yes, and you think that CDRs are a valid archiving solution ;P |
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| [21:43:43] | bitHipy: | i'm not sure if you see the problem with your analogy. putting mythbuntu in the topic would /narrow/ the discussion, but referencing the asynchronous group would not |
| [21:45:29] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, no that wouldn't narrow the discussion. People could still discuss other distros. |
| [21:45:41] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, you are confusing the "Topic" with the "Rules" |
| [21:46:03] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: the danger is not with me confusing them.. it's with others |
| [21:46:20] | tgm4883: | who? |
| [21:46:28] | bitHipy: | someone would be pushed inappropriately |
| [21:46:42] | tgm4883: | pushed where? |
| [21:46:52] | tgm4883: | away? |
| [21:47:03] | mzb- is now known as mzb | |
| [21:47:06] | bitHipy: | someone who incorrectly *thinks* mythbuntu is the only supported installation |
| [21:47:32] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, the people that idle here know the rules, they know that mythbuntu isn't the only supported installation |
| [21:47:46] | bitHipy: | i'm talking non-mods |
| [21:47:55] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, so am I |
| [21:48:01] | bitHipy: | it happens |
| [21:48:03] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I'm not a mod, I know the rules |
| [21:48:28] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, what if it said "looking for a mythtv distro? Try Mythbuntu (mythbuntu.org)" |
| [21:48:55] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I mean, it IS the de facto standard ammirite? |
| [21:48:58] | bitHipy: | someone enters a channel, and some asshole drives him off telling him he's off-topic when he's not — those are the kind of problems it creates |
| [21:49:33] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, that problem you mention is easily corrected |
| [21:50:02] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: not really.. not unless the right people are paying attention at the moment |
| [21:50:27] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, so it's better to divide the population then? |
| [21:51:00] | bitHipy: | my stance actually favors inclusion |
| [21:51:11] | bitHipy: | is your proposal that divides |
| [21:51:52] | bitHipy: | *it's |
| [21:51:56] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, no. Adding newgroups to the topic would divide the population and 'water down' the talent that resides in a particular place for support |
| [21:52:33] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, adding Mythbuntu to the topic would suggest that new users might try it, thus bringing more users to a single platform |
| [21:52:43] | tgm4883: | making it easier to support |
| [21:53:02] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: sometimes instant gratification of synchronous chat is appropriate, sometimes it's not |
| [21:53:23] | bitHipy: | let the user decide what serves her better |
| [21:54:07] | bitHipy: | usenet is actually more inclusive than IRC |
| [21:55:07] | bitHipy: | so anyone in #mythtv-users can participate in alt.video.ptv.mythtv if they want |
| [21:55:33] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, while instant support might not be the best method for some, there are already things available for non-instant support that are better suited then usenet, simply because they are established places for mythtv support with a community already in place |
| [21:55:35] | bitHipy: | but the other way around is less true |
| [21:55:46] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, your usecase for usenet is a fringe case |
| [21:56:16] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, while that is often said (people can use both), that is hardly the case that actually happens |
| [21:56:51] | bitHipy: | people have choice.. and rightly so |
| [21:57:15] | bitHipy: | but proposing more walled gardens is just more division |
| [21:58:05] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, oh ok |
| [21:58:25] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I should have just learned from last time |
| [21:59:12] | bitHipy: | walled gardens divide. usenet does not.. usenet is inclusive |
| [21:59:38] | tgm4883: | gotcha |
| [22:00:04] | bitHipy: | (moderated usenet being an exception) |
| [22:00:13] | bitHipy: | anyway, i'm off |
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| [22:00:17] | tgm4883: | good |
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