| Sunday, April 21st, 2013, 00:00 UTC | ||
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| [02:15:13] | Oleg_: | what key do I have to press to jump to a previous channel in mythtv? |
| [02:19:40] | Oleg_: | okay, I think it's the H button |
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| [02:58:15] | Korny: | Evening |
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| [05:16:57] | Jester86: | hello |
| [05:26:14] | Jester86: | anyone around? |
| [05:26:36] | Jester86: | I'm considering whether or not I should update my system |
| [05:26:40] | Jester86: | would like some input. |
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| [09:48:53] | jarle: | Hmmm... any reason why mythweb/tv/reecorded suddenly should give me a blank (empty page with a 500 internal server error) while all other mythweb pages work just fine?? |
| [09:49:35] | jarle: | (should be recorded, not reecorded) |
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| [10:02:49] | SteveGoodey: | jarle: http://www.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-users/ . . . /346005.html |
| [10:04:22] | jarle: | SteveGoodey: thnx, I'll give it a try.. |
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| [10:07:24] | jarle: | SteveGoodey: that did the trick, and I remember reading this while installing it, but it worked initially so I kept the defaults until now.. |
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| [18:14:57] | Oleg_: | mythavtest is like mplayer. |
| [18:15:23] | Oleg_: | it doesn't require adding files to a database, unlike mythfrontend |
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| [18:15:35] | Oleg_: | pretty cool |
| [18:19:55] | wagnerrp: | no, but it does require access to the database, for playback configuration settings |
| [18:20:28] | Oleg_: | well, it needs audio and video settings configured through mythfrontend |
| [18:22:42] | Oleg_: | what do you mean it requires an access to the database? you can use it even when mythbackend is down |
| [18:22:53] | bitHipy: | does the mythtv project have any interest in maintaining/bundling hardware drivers? |
| [18:23:45] | wagnerrp: | nope |
| [18:24:41] | bitHipy: | my capture card depends on unsupported drivers, and a collection of patches from https://home.comcast.net/~bender647/go7007/ (yes, some guys webpage) |
| [18:25:15] | bitHipy: | when that guys webpage goes down, no Plextor capture card users will be able to use mythtv |
| [18:25:30] | wagnerrp: | there are special distributions like mythbuntu and linhes that bundle mythtv with an operating system and drivers |
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| [18:25:55] | Jester86: | hey guys |
| [18:27:05] | wagnerrp: | to be honest, i don't think anyone is all that concerned about the obsolescence of plextor capture devies |
| [18:27:20] | wagnerrp: | i think it's been like 8 years since those things were even last on the market |
| [18:27:38] | Jester86: | What version of mythtv is everyone running here? |
| [18:27:47] | Jester86: | I just upgraded from 0.24 last night to 0.25 |
| [18:27:52] | wagnerrp: | in any case, mythtv is just the dvr software |
| [18:27:55] | Jester86: | considering going up to 0.26 |
| [18:28:05] | wagnerrp: | it's up to the linuxtv project to support the tuner and capture hardware |
| [18:28:47] | wagnerrp: | the plextor devices were always screwy anyway |
| [18:29:11] | wagnerrp: | since they compressed the video, but they requires the software to independently capture, compress, and multiplex the audio |
| [18:29:32] | wagnerrp: | as compared to IVTV style cards that did that all internally and fed an MPEG stream to the system |
| [18:30:22] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: at the time they came out, they were the only hardware that could encode div-X.. is that mainstream now? |
| [18:30:40] | wagnerrp: | right now, no one wants to encode divx anyway |
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| [18:33:06] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: what's the preferred encoding these days? do you recommend any external capture devices w/hardware codec? |
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| [18:34:27] | bitHipy: | i've been out of the market for a while.. but back in the day the non-Plextor external devices only did a raw capture |
| [18:34:40] | wagnerrp: | if you must have something external, then an HVR-1950 for standard definition, or HDPVR for high definition, are your best bets |
| [18:34:52] | wagnerrp: | both are in active production, and active support by the linuxtv project |
| [18:35:00] | bitHipy: | thanks |
| [18:35:05] | wagnerrp: | and actually, the developer of the -1950 driver is currently in this channel |
| [18:35:11] | bitHipy: | yes, i insist on external |
| [18:35:17] | wagnerrp: | why? |
| [18:35:46] | wagnerrp: | an older, cheaper alternative would be the PVR-USB2, but that has not been manufactured for some time |
| [18:36:25] | bitHipy: | there is a *lot* of electromagnetic noise inside cases – having analog video or audio inside the case is a bad idea — plus I need to be able to use a laptop |
| [18:37:20] | wagnerrp: | parts designed to be inside cases are designed to handle all that noise |
| [18:38:24] | wagnerrp: | i just have a predisposition against all things USB |
| [18:38:48] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: well, they try using various metal shields, but that's not thorough.. noise can never be eliminated, but getting the thing outside the case is a big improvement |
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| [18:38:57] | Oleg_: | what program removes the commercials from a file? |
| [18:39:35] | bitHipy: | not sure why you would oppose USB — that bus is more common than PCI and the like, and will outlast the internal bus types |
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| [18:40:16] | bitHipy: | USB devices are ultimately more versatile (hance why I still get use from an 8 year old card) |
| [18:44:19] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: i suspect i'm boring you at this point with esoterics.. but i should also point out that analog signals are lossy over long cables — which means RCA cables carrying analog input should be very short (thus your computer must be placed very close to the source of the signal), while the USB digital signal can be something like 4 feet and have no loss |
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| [18:50:47] | wagnerrp: | the USB signal can be sent dozens of feet, but the spec artificially limits it at 16ft due to wire timing concerns |
| [18:51:09] | wagnerrp: | i've just had far more stability problems resulting from USB devices than anything else |
| [18:51:25] | wagnerrp: | USB hard drives cause kernel panics |
| [18:52:02] | wagnerrp: | incompatibility between a root hub and a hub causes the entire system to periodically stall |
| [18:52:18] | wagnerrp: | a hub starting to go bad makes the entire system refuse to boot |
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| [18:53:20] | wagnerrp: | other buses come and go, but USB always seems to give me trouble when dealing with anything other than directly attached HID devices |
| [18:53:32] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: those all sound like device driver problems, not problems with the bus. poorly written drivers can cause a kernal panic because they run in the kernel space |
| [18:54:02] | bitHipy: | i think it's just incidental that you got some lousy drivers that happen to drive USB hardware |
| [18:54:12] | wagnerrp: | and my KVM switch that refused to work properly when directly connected to a board with an nvidia chipset? |
| [18:54:45] | wagnerrp: | i had to buy little VIA hubs to put in between it and several of my computers |
| [18:54:51] | bitHipy: | some KVMs are quite buggy, I've found |
| [18:55:02] | wagnerrp: | anything but nvidia hardware worked fine |
| [18:55:58] | wagnerrp: | point is, USB has just caused me enough trouble over the years, so i try to avoid it where ever possible |
| [18:56:08] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: nVidia makes lousy hardware. although it's often top spec, engineers who must interface with nVida hardware at a low level complain about how crappy their firmware is |
| [18:57:50] | bitHipy: | it's a bit ironic that firewire isn't more common, considering it was designed for video |
| [18:58:58] | wagnerrp: | it's more complex electronically, since it's actually a proper high speed interconnect |
| [18:59:10] | wagnerrp: | it provides DMA access, rather than being software driven by the CPU |
| [18:59:23] | wagnerrp: | plus, there's a licensing charge on every device |
| [19:00:04] | bitHipy: | that'll kill it |
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| [19:06:20] | bitHipy: | yikes — guess i'll avoid Plextor products in the future: http://archive09.linux.com/feature/46113 |
| [19:07:21] | bitHipy: | threatening legal action against programmers who wanted to give them a larger market by making their products usable under GNU/Linux is a non-starter for me.. i kinda regret having their hardware now |
| [19:07:22] | wagnerrp: | i dont recall it ever being a popular device |
| [19:07:39] | wagnerrp: | the hauppauge tuners were always far more common |
| [19:08:36] | bitHipy: | the plextore was uniquely the best tool on the market at the time — but geek products almost never prevail with much market share |
| [19:09:15] | wagnerrp: | it only ever did video compression, not audio compression |
| [19:09:24] | bitHipy: | at the time, div-x was the best quality compression of the time |
| [19:09:35] | wagnerrp: | not really |
| [19:09:41] | bitHipy: | mp3 is good enough, imo |
| [19:09:43] | wagnerrp: | divx was never designed to be used for quality |
| [19:10:00] | wagnerrp: | it was designed to be used for high compressibility, at the expense of quality |
| [19:10:14] | wagnerrp: | mpeg4asp, rather |
| [19:10:17] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: you have to recall the hardware of th time — nothing was better quality with that compression ratio |
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| [19:10:47] | wagnerrp: | true, but mpeg2 offered better quality than divx was capable of, at lower compression ratios |
| [19:11:08] | wagnerrp: | divx had heavy artifacting even at low compression ratios |
| [19:11:16] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: yeah, but that was when a blank DVD costed $1 |
| [19:11:39] | bitHipy: | blank CDs were the economical media |
| [19:11:50] | wagnerrp: | even still, h264 was standardized in 2003, and the x264 project has been around since 2004 |
| [19:12:33] | wagnerrp: | divx was never able to produce a good quality feature length movie at single CD size |
| [19:12:43] | wagnerrp: | it's even a stretch for h264 to manage that |
| [19:13:22] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: i found the quality quite impressive, particularly when omitting the parity bits and burning 800MB to a 700MB disc |
| [19:14:26] | wagnerrp: | which meant incompatibility with most ROMs, and the slightest scratch would cause loss of data |
| [19:15:37] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: when you lose a pixel on a stream showing 60? frames per second, you don't notice |
| [19:15:51] | wagnerrp: | you don't lose a single pixel, you lose a whole macroblock |
| [19:16:07] | wagnerrp: | and then that macroblock gets smeared all across the video until the next i-frame |
| [19:16:15] | bitHipy: | i recall div-x being the dominant distrobution format at the time.. why not h264? |
| [19:16:42] | wagnerrp: | mpeg2 was the dominant distribution, on DVDs and broadcast television |
| [19:17:34] | wagnerrp: | divx was on the dominant distribution format among media pirates, whose strict adherence to artificial size restrictions based off optical media immediately shows they have no clue what they're doing |
| [19:17:51] | bitHipy: | mpeg2 was too big for bandwidth at the time.. sure there were a few fanatics downloading high quality vide at a high bandwidth price, but that was not the norm |
| [19:19:05] | wagnerrp: | divx never had significant use among legitimate venues |
| [19:19:05] | bitHipy: | i recall backing-up DVDs to CDs, because of the unoticeable quality difference |
| [19:19:29] | wagnerrp: | i backed up DVDs to my hard drive, because hard drives were cheaper than CDs |
| [19:20:28] | bitHipy: | hard drives are temporary though.. i guess I was more into archival backups |
| [19:20:42] | bitHipy: | a backup media should not have moving parts |
| [19:20:52] | wagnerrp: | CDs spin |
| [19:21:24] | bitHipy: | sure, but who cares if the CD drive wears out? it's the data that's important |
| [19:21:47] | bitHipy: | a head failure is too costly to justify recovery |
| [19:21:49] | wagnerrp: | the media itself rots |
| [19:22:03] | wagnerrp: | archival grade CDRs were considerably more expensive than the average spindle of ritek |
| [19:22:10] | wagnerrp: | several times more |
| [19:22:14] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: indeed, long after the HDD fails |
| [19:22:32] | bitHipy: | archival CD dye goes 100 years |
| [19:22:45] | bitHipy: | not even the best Seagate Barracuda can run that long |
| [19:22:51] | wagnerrp: | i have 8yr old hard drives i'm still using daily, i have many CDRs and DVDRs that are unreadable |
| [19:23:12] | bitHipy: | i mean, even if you don't run the drive, magnetism is lossy |
| [19:23:48] | bitHipy: | yeas, I've had a Seagate Barracuda go ~8 years.. that was very impressive for a hard drive |
| [19:24:27] | bitHipy: | and it's not just the magnetism on the platters.. there are magnets that the arm needs |
| [19:24:27] | wagnerrp: | the difference is you can put that hard drive in an array, and when one drive goes bad, you know to replace it |
| [19:24:50] | wagnerrp: | a CD sitting in a binder can rot for years and you would never know until it's too late |
| [19:25:19] | bitHipy: | depends if it's archival quality |
| [19:25:37] | wagnerrp: | right, but those were always several times the cost of a standard CDR |
| [19:25:40] | bitHipy: | the free blanks start to fail after ~5 years.. the good ones, 100 years |
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| [19:26:12] | wagnerrp: | meaning at that cost, you could buy two hard drives, mirror them, and replace them both multiple times due to failure |
| [19:27:18] | wagnerrp: | and don't forget the cost of time should you ever need to spend several days cycling CDRs through your drive to recover from a failure |
| [19:27:51] | wagnerrp: | the first time i did that was the last time i ever used optical media for bulk backups |
| [19:30:10] | bitHipy: | it would be quicker if you store extra parity data |
| [19:30:29] | wagnerrp: | huh? |
| [19:31:14] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, I think wagnerrp was talking about attempting to restore 30GB of data from CDRs |
| [19:31:18] | bitHipy: | if you don't toss out the parity data (as I sometimes did), you can do the opposite and store more parity data |
| [19:31:39] | tgm4883: | 30GB being an arbitrary number that is larger than 700MB |
| [19:31:50] | wagnerrp: | what tgm said, i'm just talking about the scenario of losing a hard drive and having to recover all that data from the CDR archives |
| [19:32:11] | wagnerrp: | when you're recovering several hundred GB, 700MB at a time, it gets exceedingly tedious |
| [19:32:18] | wagnerrp: | hence... better to just use another hard drive |
| [19:32:26] | tgm4883: | total time + total cost is always going to be better for hard drives than CDRs |
| [19:32:51] | bitHipy: | indeed, losing a hard drive is a major loss.. one head goes down and you have a lot to recover.. lose one or two CDs, no big deal |
| [19:33:16] | wagnerrp: | i'm talking about the CDs being used as an archive, to back up the more convenient use |
| [19:33:20] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, it's a big deal if you need the data on those CDs |
| [19:33:27] | bitHipy: | another hard drive means 2 points of failure.. that's still a bit insecure |
| [19:33:31] | wagnerrp: | you can't very well navigate a binder of CDs through the onscreen menu in the video library |
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| [19:34:36] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, Anyone serious about backups isn't going to use CDs. IMO |
| [19:35:02] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: no, but not HDDs either |
| [19:35:19] | wagnerrp: | hard drives are typically good for several years |
| [19:35:28] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, true, so I'm not sure what we're arguing here |
| [19:35:30] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: magnetic tape is still king in the enterprise |
| [19:35:40] | wagnerrp: | and by the time the hard drives are going to go bad, on average, you're looking to upgrade your storage capacity anyway |
| [19:36:29] | wagnerrp: | so you stick it in a RAID for the unexpected failure, stick to a fairly regular replacement/upgrade schedule, and there's really nothing to worry about |
| [19:36:32] | tgm4883: | CDs are an infeirour format to just about everything |
| [19:36:48] | tgm4883: | (currently) |
| [19:36:50] | wagnerrp: | where if you stick it all on CDs, or DVDs, or BDs, and expect it to still be round in five years, you're going to lose data |
| [19:37:04] | wagnerrp: | hell, even my commercially printed HDDVDs, about half of them are already rotted away |
| [19:37:49] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: be sure to not let your magnetic media get near a magnetic field.. store it next to a loudspeaker too long and you're hosed |
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| [19:38:48] | bitHipy: | i've seen CDs chip apart when the sun dries out the label.. but generally they're stored in a cool dark place |
| [19:38:50] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, so we're doing one offs/bad practices now? |
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| [19:39:11] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, good argument. Take a bad practice of HD's and compare it to good practice for CDRs |
| [19:39:16] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: vulnarabilites are of course part of security issues |
| [19:39:17] | wagnerrp: | you know, hard drives have these exceedingly powerful magnets directly in them to drive the armature motors |
| [19:39:19] | ** tgm4883 goes back to looking for lunch ** | |
| [19:39:57] | wagnerrp: | a speaker driver sitting a few feet away won't do them a bit of harm |
| [19:40:16] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: those magnets cancel each other out — they do not prove resistence to magnetic fields in the slightest |
| [19:40:46] | bitHipy: | a third magnet will go to town on a hard drive |
| [19:40:57] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, you seem to have some sort of emotional attachment to CDRs (like you've spent a lot of time backing up all your stuff to them). I try not to get into discussions with people that have emotional investments in it. |
| [19:41:05] | tgm4883: | wagnerrp, I suggest you do the same ;) |
| [19:41:38] | bitHipy: | tgm4883: there's nothing emotional on my end.. i just have a background in security, so I look at vulnerabilities — most people ignore them |
| [19:41:50] | wagnerrp: | i'm not suggesting they offer any form of protection, merely indication that it takes a fairly powerful magnetic field to cause any real problems |
| [19:42:14] | tgm4883: | bitHipy, thats BS. I'd argue with you more, but I'm going to get lunch. |
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| [19:42:20] | bitHipy: | i always make it a point to expose vulnerabilities — it takes an emotional attachment to deny it |
| [19:42:24] | wagnerrp: | that's going to be doubly the case if we start moving towards thermomagnetic storage |
| [19:43:11] | bitHipy: | i've never heard of thermomagnetic storage |
| [19:44:25] | wagnerrp: | you use a laser to raise the temperature of the specific spot you want to write to |
| [19:44:58] | wagnerrp: | since the laser can be focused more accurately than the magnetic write head, it allows for smaller writes |
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| [19:45:24] | wagnerrp: | basically, one of the tricks they're investigating to continue to increase storage density |
| [19:45:35] | bitHipy: | and the surface is magnetic? |
| [19:45:56] | wagnerrp: | the surface is still magnetic just like a normal hard drive |
| [19:46:00] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: i think the crystals sound more promising |
| [19:46:12] | wagnerrp: | but they use a material that is more resistant to change |
| [19:46:19] | wagnerrp: | meaning they have to heat it up to be able to write to it |
| [19:46:25] | bitHipy: | lasers writing to crystals sounds safer |
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| [19:53:31] | bitHipy: | wagnerrp: when packing your stuff into a storage container or mini-storage, do you label all your boxes that have hard drives, and all your boxes that have speakers or magnets, and try to keep separation? |
| [19:54:11] | wagnerrp: | can't say. never shipped them |
| [19:55:02] | wagnerrp: | although they would likely either be securely mounted in a case, or bubble wrapped |
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| [20:12:45] | RogerM: | Anyone know if 0.27 will have support of multifrontend dvb drivers? |
| [20:15:38] | wagnerrp: | if 0.26 doesn't, i doubt 0.27 will |
| [20:18:13] | RogerM: | It might be a bit too late for it to be worked on. Do not know how hard it is to implement. |
| [20:18:45] | wagnerrp: | is that sort of thing needed to handle certain types of hybrid tuners? |
| [20:19:13] | wagnerrp: | is it possible to simply add all the frontends individually, and shove them into an input group? |
| [20:19:22] | RogerM: | Just noticed that a device I have (Terratec H7) recently got multifrontend. |
| [20:19:54] | RogerM: | Yes.. My H7 has both DVB-C and DVB-T. Default is DVB-T and I have to run a command to actually set it to DVB-C before use. |
| [20:20:25] | RogerM: | Myth could do that manually via DVBv5 API I guess. |
| [20:21:01] | wagnerrp: | i would say ask devin about that, but he left 45 minutes ago |
| [20:21:05] | RogerM: | I guess it could be included in the scheduler if needed.. |
| [20:21:54] | RogerM: | well.. I'll drop an email to dev-list if I remeber. :) |
| [20:21:58] | RogerM: | remember.. |
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| [20:22:40] | wagnerrp: | i swear, you have to have some script that emails you when someone utters your name in the logs |
| [20:22:41] | wagnerrp: | :) |
| [20:23:03] | RogerM: | =) |
| [20:23:51] | wagnerrp: | devinheitmueller: any idea if mythtv supports multi-frontend DVB drivers? |
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| [20:25:53] | devinheitmueller: | wagnerrp: Not the last time I checked. |
| [20:26:11] | devinheitmueller: | I think people are still using the command line tool to toggle their device between DVB-T and DVB-C. |
| [20:29:09] | wagnerrp: | that's not something mythtv could do by adding the frontends individually, and marking them as a shared input group? |
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| [20:30:32] | devinheitmueller: | No. |
| [20:30:44] | devinheitmueller: | IT's a single frontend. You issue an ioctl() call to it to put it into a particular mode. |
| [20:31:12] | devinheitmueller: | Until recently, the driver would actually create separate /dev/dvb/frontendX devices, but that's what they're moving away from. |
| [20:31:34] | wagnerrp: | ah, i mistakenly though they were doing the opposite |
| [20:31:48] | RogerM: | Hopefully someone with knowledge will have time and insert the needed code so it will become easier to choose inside myth. |
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| [20:32:31] | RogerM: | Not sure at which kernel-version support was inserted for multi frontend. |
| [20:33:21] | devinheitmueller: | Yeah, it shouldn't be that hard. |
| [20:33:30] | ** RogerM took a look at both linuxtv and myth wikis to insert some data.. Too late in the evening for learning wiki-editing.. ** | |
| [20:33:31] | devinheitmueller: | That said, getting anybody to do any real work on that code has been a challenge. |
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| [21:08:47] | Gumby`: | hi all. does anyone know if mythtv grabs dvb-s eit data while it is tuned to a channel or when it is not in use? |
| [21:11:22] | wagnerrp: | that's controlled by a setting |
| [21:11:42] | wagnerrp: | you can either have it only pull data out of channels it is already recording |
| [21:11:52] | wagnerrp: | or automatically scan in the background any time the system goes idle |
| [21:12:20] | Gumby`: | for the pull data of channels it is already recording, does that mean all data available in that stream or just data for that channel? |
| [21:12:32] | Gumby`: | and might you know where is this setting found? |
| [21:12:39] | wagnerrp: | all data available in that stream |
| [21:12:57] | wagnerrp: | not off hand. i've never used eit data |
| [21:13:09] | Gumby`: | ok, I'll search around. thanks for the answers |
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