| Tuesday, January 15th, 2013, 00:01 UTC | ||
| [00:01:36] | systemloc: | wagnerrp: so I have base mythtv working now. I've been trying to get mythnetview working. I installed all of the perl deps listed in the wiki, and there are no compile errors. I can run it inside mythtv, and I can add website channels in the manage subscriptions menu, but then nothing happens.. The websites all appear under the search bar, but nothing populates with shows, and if I hit M/Menu, it doesn't have an option to upda |
| [00:01:40] | systemloc: | http://pastebin.com/FMeR9gbF |
| [00:01:50] | wagnerrp: | mythnetvision? |
| [00:02:06] | systemloc: | sure, that too |
| [00:02:41] | systemloc: | these plugin names are starting to drive me batty |
| [00:02:54] | wagnerrp: | there are two different types of grabber for MNV |
| [00:03:12] | wagnerrp: | there are ones that allow you to interactively search, and then there are ones that let you pre-populate a tree of videos to browse |
| [00:03:12] | systemloc: | MythCola – Record the real thing, baby |
| [00:03:18] | wagnerrp: | mythfillnetvision is for the latter |
| [00:04:02] | wagnerrp: | to be honest, i've never really used it |
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| [00:04:18] | wagnerrp: | so i'm not going to be of much help with that |
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| [00:04:51] | systemloc: | That's useful info, thanks. Is there a particular grabber you know allows prepopulating, so I can test it? |
| [00:06:16] | wagnerrp: | http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythNetvision#Curr . . . ion_Grabbers |
| [00:07:10] | jams: | it's awkward to use |
| [00:07:48] | wagnerrp: | it can be pretty clean.. if the individual websites are configured in a manner to allow so |
| [00:08:01] | wagnerrp: | most arent |
| [00:08:19] | jams: | says the person who just admitted they never really used it |
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| [00:08:55] | systemloc: | wagnerrp, tree view support means it allows you to prepopulate, I'm guessing |
| [00:08:57] | wagnerrp: | if the flash video player used by the website offers javascript hooks for various controls, the grabber can define those, and mythnetvision will use them |
| [00:09:07] | wagnerrp: | allowing it to be used through the remote |
| [00:09:26] | wagnerrp: | however, most websites offer no such thing, so you're stuck with mouse and keyboard |
| [00:09:47] | Seeker`: | Do all of the tuners attached to a source have to be able to recieve exactly the same channels? |
| [00:09:54] | wagnerrp: | Seeker`: yes |
| [00:10:17] | Seeker`: | k |
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| [00:10:49] | wagnerrp: | the grabbers are also capable of providing their own custom webpage with only the player itself embedded |
| [00:10:58] | wagnerrp: | i believe most are set up to at least provide that |
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| [00:11:17] | Seeker`: | hmm, increased the size of post requests allowed to 128M, still fails |
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| [00:12:30] | Seeker`: | and the number of fields to 100,000 |
| [00:12:34] | Seeker`: | still fails |
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| [02:07:16] | russk: | Hi does any gentoo user know why 0.26 is masked? any stability problems or anything ? |
| [02:12:16] | russk: | hmm, any stability problems on other platforms with 0.26? I think i might take the plunge |
| [02:12:38] | wagnerrp: | not that i know of |
| [02:14:02] | skd5aner: | jams: you jumped from 0.21 to 0.25?! |
| [02:14:05] | skd5aner: | why so long? |
| [02:14:29] | russk: | thanks, I guess I'll just unmask it and give it a whirl |
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| [03:50:56] | jams: | skd5aner, i waited because .22 was the first release with mythui, .23 was unstable at best, .24 I just skipped for no real reason |
| [03:51:24] | jams: | frankly .21 just worked |
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| [03:53:59] | jams: | skd5aner, for prev channel that ticket you linked to is exactly what i'm seeing. I assumed that was introduced during the great recorder rewrite |
| [03:56:00] | jams: | it's minor but also annoying. But really between that bug and channel changes taking so long I don't use prev channel much anymore. with .21 channel changes took liess then 1.5 secods with .25 it's close to 4–5 seconds with the same machine. only differnce is the myth & qt version. |
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| [05:11:36] | drussell_: | Any ideas why watch recordings wouldn't be showing the preview and the program until you press [I]nfo or hit an ALT-TAB? (0.26 on FreeBSD 8.3-STABLE) Hitting Up->Down doesn't work but an ALT-TAB does.... Very strange |
| [05:16:55] | drussell_: | (the program info description/rec time, etc. that is)... Using the Qt painter... I tried OpenGL but frontend hangs and just logs "Failed to create OpenGL texture".(software renderer using Mesa 7.6.1) |
| [05:17:26] | wagnerrp: | yeah, shouldn't use MESA with mythtv... or really anything... |
| [05:17:46] | drussell_: | No, but it should be enough to paint the theme menus.... |
| [05:18:24] | wagnerrp: | should be, but the performance is _awful_ |
| [05:18:50] | wagnerrp: | the opengl painter adds some simple transitions and animation, with no hard dropping of frames |
| [05:19:01] | wagnerrp: | it bogs down MESA to no end |
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| [05:20:41] | drussell_: | X doesn't seem to want to do hardware GL on this low-end ATI... I don't really care, it's just the backend db/fileserver and even plays videos fine, just wierd that the UI is broken... 0.23 worked fine |
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| [05:21:36] | wagnerrp: | the UI used to default to Qt in 0.23 |
| [05:21:56] | wagnerrp: | now, it tries to intelligently choose, and incorrectly decided to use opengl |
| [05:22:13] | drussell_: | No, I had to force it to opengl to try it... |
| [05:22:22] | drussell_: | Auto correctly uses Qt |
| [05:22:58] | drussell_: | It works fine on Linux using either Qt or openGL |
| [05:23:12] | wagnerrp: | on the same system? |
| [05:23:39] | drussell_: | This backend just happens to be FreeBSD, but I have several other FE that are BSD also that I haven't tried 0.26 on yet... |
| [05:23:45] | drussell_: | Yes, it works fine in Mythbuntu |
| [05:24:00] | drussell_: | With 0.26 |
| [05:26:18] | drussell_: | It's a minor glitch... Nothing compared to the head-bashing I'm doing trying to get LiveTV working properly on another system.. The dies on channel change problem... |
| [05:27:08] | wagnerrp: | all i can say is, stick with qt |
| [05:28:14] | drussell_: | I don't think the problem has anything to do with the painter since it works (0.26) with Qt on the linux boxes... I'm guessing it's a FreeBSD-specific problem... |
| [05:28:23] | wagnerrp: | i've got a BSD box as my backend as well, and i've honestly never even run X on the local terminal |
| [05:28:25] | drussell_: | Everything else works perfectly, though... :-) |
| [05:29:07] | drussell_: | I use this one as a FE also sometimes, so it'd be nice if it was as slick as it should be... |
| [05:29:31] | wagnerrp: | mine just sits in a corner in my basement |
| [05:29:32] | drussell_: | It's very strange that as soon as you ALT-TAB away (say to an xterm) you see it update the screen properly right away... |
| [05:30:07] | drussell_: | I have many many machines in the basement too... most have no monitors, they just run for years and years until I do some kind of hardware update or load a new kernel |
| [05:30:50] | wagnerrp: | my uptime is measured as the time between two power outages |
| [05:31:01] | drussell_: | I only use Linux for the boxes that have to have tuners in them, otherwise I use BSD |
| [05:31:22] | wagnerrp: | which at current, tends to be about a month |
| [05:31:27] | drussell_: | Exactly... SOme of mine are even on an old APC 24v UPS with 4 car batteries hooked up to it :) |
| [05:32:02] | wagnerrp: | i just have a puny 1250VA SLA unit, and the battery is going south quickly |
| [05:32:07] | wagnerrp: | needs to get replaced |
| [05:32:12] | drussell_: | Power is good here... Often 300–500 days between outages on most of my non-UPS BSD boxen.. Nice uptimes :-) |
| [05:32:45] | drussell_: | Go buy a nice big deep cycle battery from your local Interstate dealer and hook that up to it |
| [05:33:12] | drussell_: | Those things last forever... Just top it up with distilled water about once a year |
| [05:33:16] | wagnerrp: | yeah, and build a nice ventilated room while i'm at it |
| [05:34:01] | drussell_: | I'm in Canada, all those whirring fans are pumping out heat like a little space heater — reduces the heating bill but don't look at the electric |
| [05:36:18] | drussell_: | One standard lead-acid won't gas much on UPS detail but since I've got 4 and do an equalize charge every once in a while using an external charger, I do have a little battery box with an air pipe to outside on mine... |
| [05:37:22] | wagnerrp: | if i were going the DIY route, i'd ditch the inverter all together and switch over to DC |
| [05:38:51] | drussell_: | Good point if you have a bunch of machines... What does the "Build background buttonlist item xxx" mean, any idea? |
| [05:39:25] | wagnerrp: | nope, i don't really do UI stuff |
| [05:41:00] | wagnerrp: | right now, i've got the backup running the primary backend and file server (BSD), secondary backend and frontend (gentoo), firewall, modem, network switch, access point, and a handful of other DC parts |
| [05:41:27] | wagnerrp: | i'd be doing it to ditch the power strip full of rectifiers as much as anything else |
| [05:42:12] | drussell_: | Most of them are probably 12v already... as long as they're regulating the external supply down, they won't mind the 13.8–14... |
| [05:42:55] | wagnerrp: | no, i'd want to get something that cleaned up and normalized the power rather than run straight off the batteries |
| [05:43:11] | wagnerrp: | something like a high output picopsu |
| [05:47:18] | wagnerrp: | problem is none of those are particularly powerful |
| [05:48:10] | drussell_: | Good DIY project... :-) |
| [05:48:42] | wagnerrp: | maybe in a year or two |
| [05:52:27] | drussell_: | Yeah, I already have too many projects on the go also, mostly actual work not the really fun stuff |
| [05:53:18] | sphery: | wagnerrp: ah, I see... Your 25W-idle system is really a 200W power sucking system and your kill-a-watt is missing (seemingly a ton of) quick spikes and surges it's pulling |
| [05:53:37] | ** sphery places an order for an rPi for his new frontend ** | |
| [05:53:42] | wagnerrp: | nah, that's on the opposite side of the house |
| [05:54:33] | drussell_: | Know anything about the LiveTV problems with the Hauppauge cards? That's probably UI too.. Recordings work fine, LiveTV useless... |
| [05:55:03] | drussell_: | And I had it working a week ago on that box... Now I broke it somehow and can't for the life of me find out how or why... grrrrr |
| [05:55:43] | sphery: | I'm guessing he was saying that's why you didn't see a difference between full-frequency idle and freq-scaled idle, but I'm sure others will see it as "oh, yeah, so it's really pulling a ton of power" |
| [05:56:14] | wagnerrp: | oh, there a reply on the list? |
| [05:56:32] | sphery: | yeah |
| [05:58:09] | drussell_: | Is it a power factor correcting power supply? |
| [05:58:52] | wagnerrp: | no idea |
| [05:59:04] | wagnerrp: | it's an antec (or at least sold with an antec case) |
| [05:59:11] | wagnerrp: | but it's open frame with no detailed ratings |
| [06:02:36] | sphery: | fwiw, IIRC, a couple of my old antecs put the sticker with the ratings on the side that's mounted against the top of the case |
| [06:02:52] | sphery: | (only way to see it is to remove the psu) |
| [06:03:02] | wagnerrp: | http://www.onyougo.com/antec-fp-150-8-photos_pi1673935e7n0 |
| [06:03:11] | wagnerrp: | can't see anything in the picture that looks like PFC |
| [06:04:01] | sphery: | your killawatt should show pf, so if it's close to 1... |
| [06:04:40] | wagnerrp: | huh, there is a little PF button on the thing |
| [06:06:18] | wagnerrp: | http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cases/antec-foxconn-inwin/gr4.png |
| [06:06:43] | wagnerrp: | so efficiency and power factor both rank as "awful" at the load i'm putting on it |
| [06:07:01] | drussell_: | Yes, the kill-a-watt should be recording the actual power (just like your power meter) but if the PFC is working it should definitely closely indicate the actual power |
| [06:07:06] | sphery: | hehe |
| [06:07:27] | wagnerrp: | now hold on a minute |
| [06:07:28] | sphery: | I wish they made 80 plus psus that small |
| [06:07:48] | wagnerrp: | if i'm pulling 25W at the wall, and efficiency is somewhere south of 60% |
| [06:07:49] | drussell_: | yes, I'd bet it's a typical poor psu that is very inefficient below almost max rated power |
| [06:07:56] | wagnerrp: | that thing is pulling almost nothing on its own |
| [06:08:31] | sphery: | so, your 25W-idle system is really a 2.5W system and the rest is PSU inefficiency :) |
| [06:09:44] | drussell_: | Got a scope and a shunt resistor? You can watch exactly what it's pulling from the AC line :-) |
| [06:09:54] | wagnerrp: | nope, no scope |
| [06:10:17] | drussell_: | Drats... Once you have one you wonder how you ever got along without one... |
| [06:11:10] | drussell_: | You can get pretty good inexpensive hobby digital ones that connect to a laptop for display |
| [06:12:05] | drussell_: | It's just a high speed DAC... Then software |
| [06:12:49] | wagnerrp: | only time i've ever dealt with a scope is in some basic instrumentation course |
| [06:13:17] | wagnerrp: | and even then, it wasn't for electronics purposes, but pressure/temperature/strain/etc... |
| [06:14:15] | drussell_: | I've used everything from a bastardized monochrome monitor and a couple amplifiers to a sound card input to an analog scope to a laptop DSO to a standalone Tektronix for all sorts of different purposes |
| [06:15:24] | drussell_: | Very handy for everything from watching the AC line to "real" electronic uses... |
| [06:16:16] | drussell_: | I've even got an old analog one that uses vacuum tubes..... It's actually still a nice scope |
| [06:16:21] | drussell_: | Just no good above 1 Mhz |
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| [06:34:02] | wagnerrp: | well this is quite frightening... http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cases/antec-foxconn-inwin/gr9.png |
| [06:34:22] | wagnerrp: | the 3.3V is nice, the others.... |
| [06:35:44] | drussell_: | Yeah, doesn't look like the best power supply design :-) They're obviously hoping/assuming that everything on the +5 and +12 lines is being re-regulated locally... |
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| [06:36:11] | drussell_: | Or at least lots of extra filtering... |
| [06:36:12] | wagnerrp: | note to self, don't buy foxconn power supplies |
| [06:36:46] | drussell_: | Foxconn knows how to build good stuff too but most things now are designed to be cheap, not good.... |
| [06:37:26] | drussell_: | When you try to engineer all the cost out of a device, the reults are usually less than good |
| [06:38:06] | wagnerrp: | by comparison, here's the antec one... http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cases/antec-foxconn-inwin/gr2.png |
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| [06:40:02] | drussell_: | Yes, that's at least more what you'd hoope to see coming out of a supply meant for a digital device |
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| [06:54:16] | drussell_: | I should have started with bigger disks in this thing... 1x1TB+6x2TB are already almost full just consolodating the old disks :-) |
| [06:54:54] | drussell_: | Don't say I have too many videos... It's still under 10k on this db LOL |
| [06:55:54] | drussell_: | 8907 recordings |
| [06:56:53] | drussell_: | Interesting... The problems with the painter have gone away now that I'm running a metadata lookup in the background... |
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| [06:58:03] | drussell_: | Previews seem to be loading properly now... Wierd, but I'm glad it's working now. Wasn't sure what to check next without starting to trace and debug some source... |
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| [07:00:48] | drussell_: | Good... Now the FreeBSD BE is good to go, now on to the update on my tuner box (0.23 -> 0.26 on linux) and the laptops (FreeBSD) |
| [07:05:19] | drussell_: | And if I could just figure out this channel changinging crash on LiveTV... Maybe I'll see where it breaks as I update my tuner BE... |
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| [15:54:39] | runelind: | is anyone using mythweb with nginx? |
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| [15:54:56] | runelind: | while the website pulls up, I'm unable to make any of the links work. |
| [15:56:18] | runelind: | here is my nginx config: http://pastie.org/5688881 |
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| [17:08:52] | tgm4883: | sphery, wagnerrp weren't you guys helping someone the other day that had a single channel that wouldn't update data, then magically every few days it would get data? |
| [17:09:55] | wagnerrp: | not that i recall |
| [17:10:13] | tgm4883: | ok |
| [17:10:34] | tgm4883: | I might be remembering incorrectly, I thought someone in here was having a similar issue to a user I'm helping |
| [17:10:50] | tgm4883: | although he says he wasn't in here asking about it |
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| [17:39:16] | runelind: | I'm guessing since I'm on FreeBSD, I can't use mythbrake to automatically transcode stuff. |
| [17:40:37] | wagnerrp: | i don't see why not |
| [17:40:55] | runelind: | I didn't think handbrake was ported to FreeBSD |
| [17:41:14] | wagnerrp: | isn't it open source? |
| [17:41:25] | runelind: | oh, looks like it is in the ports tree now. |
| [17:41:31] | runelind: | it wasn't for the longest time. |
| [17:41:53] | wagnerrp: | they're both POSIX compliant, they both run X11, "porting" shouldn't take much more than recompiling under a different toolchain |
| [17:42:11] | wagnerrp: | at most, you've got a few structures and constants that exist in different places |
| [17:42:30] | wagnerrp: | the most i would be concerned about is things like capturing and disc access |
| [17:43:32] | runelind: | I just recorded my first show, and am starting to look at transcoding. |
| [17:44:03] | wagnerrp: | it's generally not worth it, unless you need to for support/storage on some mobile device |
| [17:46:13] | runelind: | well my 30 min sample show is 3GB big ;p |
| [17:46:29] | wagnerrp: | sounds about right |
| [17:46:42] | wagnerrp: | cutting commercials losslessly will bring that to around 2GB |
| [17:46:51] | wagnerrp: | transcoding to h264 should only drop you to around 1GB |
| [17:47:07] | tgm4883: | +time investment |
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| [17:49:19] | runelind: | need to read more about it. |
| [17:50:09] | runelind: | ideally I'd like to automatically cut commercials, transcode to h264, and rename it to something sane. |
| [17:50:39] | wagnerrp: | well you can't automatically cut commercials |
| [17:50:49] | runelind: | looking in my TV directory, right now I'm just getting a bunch of mpg files. |
| [17:50:55] | wagnerrp: | mythtv isn't designed to allow that, since the commercial flagger is not 100% accurate |
| [17:51:07] | wagnerrp: | but producing a cutlist is pretty quick, only takes a few minutes |
| [17:51:14] | wagnerrp: | as for renaming to something sane, don't |
| [17:51:37] | wagnerrp: | recordings should never be renamed, unless to do something innocuous like changing the extension |
| [17:51:47] | wagnerrp: | if you want human readable names, see mythlink.pl |
| [17:51:53] | wagnerrp: | or migrate the content to the video library |
| [17:52:47] | runelind: | yeah, I was wanting to dump the transcoded file into a dir where e.g. sickbeard can process it |
| [17:53:13] | wagnerrp: | and that's another thing, read the last bit of the topic |
| [17:54:04] | runelind: | oh, is it considered piracy to watch recorded shows? |
| [17:54:40] | wagnerrp: | recorded? no... but as i understand it, sickbeard is a program intended to automate downloading and distribution of content over bittorrent |
| [17:54:46] | wagnerrp: | which would be considered piracy |
| [17:55:12] | wagnerrp: | either that, or it's the newsgroup sharing thing... i can't remember |
| [17:55:36] | runelind: | it has a script that matches filenames and moves them into appropriate folders |
| [17:56:02] | runelind: | and then updates the htpc library |
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| [17:56:37] | wagnerrp: | see something like mythvidexport.py, does all that internally through the jobqueue |
| [17:56:45] | runelind: | (yes, it could also be used to download stuff from the internets, but that's not what I'm talking about) |
| [17:56:51] | runelind: | ok, I'll check that out. |
| [17:57:10] | wagnerrp: | just a warning, considering that's sickbeard's primary purpose |
| [17:59:52] | runelind: | thanks for the heads up. |
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| [18:07:04] | Quantum7: | Trying to upgrade from 0.24 to 0.27, but on mythtv-setup have the dreaded "MySQL time zone support is missing. Please install it and try again. See 'mysql_tzinfo_to_sql' for assistance." |
| [18:07:21] | jams: | http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MySQL_Time_Zone_Tables |
| [18:07:37] | jams: | directions are in the wiki |
| [18:07:41] | wagnerrp: | mysql_tzinfo_to_sql processes your local timezone files, and creates the necessary SQL to import them into your database |
| [18:09:10] | Quantum7: | Thx, I thought it should work with mysql_tzinfo_to_sql /etc or mysql_tzinfo_to_sql timezonefile /etc/timezone but no luck. |
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| [18:09:48] | wagnerrp: | all it does is generate the SQL statements |
| [18:09:50] | Quantum7: | O. |
| [18:09:54] | wagnerrp: | you still need to push them into the database |
| [18:10:09] | wagnerrp: | meaning something like "mysql_tzinfo_to_sql ... | mysql -uroot -p" |
| [18:10:19] | wagnerrp: | the page jams posted should have specifics |
| [18:11:09] | bas-t: | mysql_tzinfo_to_sql /usr/share/zoneinfo | mysql -u root -p mysql |
| [18:11:26] | runelind: | wagnerrp: so really, I just need to turn on commercial skipping in mythfrontend and not worry about it? |
| [18:11:29] | Quantum7: | mysql_tzinfo_to_sql /usr/share/zoneinfo | mysql -u root -p<yourpassword> mysql just gave alot of 'unable to load's |
| [18:12:01] | wagnerrp: | runelind: if you want to access stuff through the "Watch Recordings" screen, that works just fine |
| [18:12:35] | Quantum7: | Whaoh, but setup is running now. If this doesn't work I'm screwed. |
| [18:12:36] | runelind: | wagnerrp: yeah I think I'll just do that then – keep things simple for now. |
| [18:12:37] | wagnerrp: | if you want to spend 2–3 minutes per show generating a cutlist, and about as much time running the transcoder, you can permanently remove the commercials |
| [18:12:48] | wagnerrp: | dropping you to around 65–70% the original size |
| [18:12:52] | runelind: | that sounds like a lot of work. |
| [18:13:00] | runelind: | I have many TB of free space |
| [18:13:25] | wagnerrp: | fair enough |
| [18:15:49] | Quantum7: | That wiki article is vital. Had no clue it was there. |
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| [18:17:04] | ** wagnerrp wonders if this "flippant remark" was actually unnecessary... http://www.mythtv.org/wiki?title=Talk:Frequen . . . p;rcid=64221 ** | |
| [18:17:21] | wagnerrp: | seemed pretty necessary to me at the time |
| [18:17:38] | Quantum7: | O no, now when I try to start the backend it says my init scripts are out of date. (Debian Testing) Any idea where I can get newer ones? |
| [18:17:40] | Iamnacho (Iamnacho!~Iamnacho@ip174-70-132-58.ks.ks.cox.net) has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) | |
| [18:17:59] | ** wagnerrp grumbles about people throwing ramdisks at everything ** | |
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| [18:20:37] | Quantum7: | O, --logpath... |
| [18:21:40] | wagnerrp: | yeah, mythtv now prefers to be given a path to log to, and choose it's own filenames to allow independent files for each application instance |
| [18:22:06] | Quantum7: | Oh my gosh I'm running 0.27... |
| [18:22:20] | wagnerrp: | makes it cleaner to try to figure out what's going on when you don't have a user attempting to load half a GB worth of logs from the last 100 times they started mythtv |
| [18:23:37] | Quantum7: | It's forgotten my theming, and the only thing in Media Library is Watch Recordings, and mythfrontend -w still doesn't work. But this will be a nice upgrade. |
| [18:24:18] | wagnerrp: | you should always have "Watch Videos" in your "Media Library", since that is now part of the core and no longer a plugin |
| [18:24:31] | wagnerrp: | unless maybe you're running some funky menu theme |
| [18:25:17] | wagnerrp: | as for running the incorrect UI theme, it will not automatically download a theme if your selected theme is not installed, try going into the theme chooser and grabbing it again |
| [18:25:31] | Quantum7: | OK Watch TV is there. |
| [18:26:00] | Quantum7: | Is theme chooser in Utilities/Setup |
| [18:26:05] | wagnerrp: | yes |
| [18:26:47] | Quantum7: | Only have Setup there, and Appearance doesn't have themes. |
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| [18:27:36] | Quantum7: | Is theme chooser in mythplugins? |
| [18:27:36] | wagnerrp: | you should have a whole bunch of stuff in there |
| [18:27:46] | wagnerrp: | from the main menu, Setup --> Theme Chooser |
| [18:28:25] | wagnerrp: | if you can see Appearances, open it up and see what your "Menu theme" is set to |
| [18:28:28] | Quantum7: | N, under Utilities/Setup I only have Setup. Haven't compiles mythplugins yet... |
| [18:28:36] | wagnerrp: | should be under the first page |
| [18:28:58] | Quantum7: | Menu Theme DVR |
| [18:28:58] | wagnerrp: | the Video Library and Theme Chooser are both core functions, they will always be available in the menu |
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| [18:29:11] | Quantum7: | O. Ain't got em |
| [18:29:42] | wagnerrp: | Utilities/Setup --> Setup --> Theme Chooser |
| [18:29:59] | Quantum7: | Np, only have Setup there. |
| [18:29:59] | wagnerrp: | and Utilities/Setup --> Videos |
| [18:30:39] | Quantum7: | Utilities/Setup-->Setup is the only thing there, but Setup has a few things. |
| [18:31:35] | Quantum7: | (General, Appearance, Screen Setup Wizards, and TV Settings) |
| [18:31:56] | Quantum7: | My only choice under Utilities/Setup is Setup. |
| [18:32:10] | Quantum7: | This is yesterday's git. |
| [18:32:15] | wagnerrp: | any chance you were manually editing the menu theme at some time in the past, and have your own custom one sitting in your user folder? |
| [18:32:45] | Quantum7: | Very possible, on the 0.24. I've never had the theme chooser. |
| [18:33:23] | wagnerrp: | try going back to appearance and changing the menu theme to default |
| [18:34:32] | Quantum7: | OK now menu theme is Default, but still only setup. |
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| [18:35:49] | Quantum7: | When I set Default and next/next/next it seemed to restart the frontend, but still only Setup under Utilities/Setup. |
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| [18:48:31] | qwebirc21299: | I was here yesterday asking about commerical flagging in myth 0.25....I've upgraded to 0.26 now but still seem to be having issues |
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| [18:50:13] | qwebirc21299: | mythweb shows that a program was flagged but that it finished flagging half way through the 30 minute show....I'm guessing mythcommflag is crashing but I'm not sure where to find the logs in 0.26 to check...any ideas? |
| [18:50:32] | Quantum7: | Hm, oddly on my laptop I do have the theme chooser, and it remembered my old theme. (MythBuntu) But on the main HTPC it can't seem to do themes. |
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| [18:56:34] | drussell_: | qwebirc21299: Depends on your configuration but have you looked in /var/log/mythtv? |
| [18:57:31] | qwebirc21299: | ya...I've got an empty mythcommflag.log file in there....not sure how to turn it on |
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| [19:16:35] | wayne__: | I have "time to record past end of show" set to 600 seconds. However if Program A is followed by Program B on the same channel, I do NOT get the last 10 minutes of B added to end of the A recording. Is this because my advert detection method is pre/post-roll? |
| [19:17:42] | tgm4883: | wayne__, why would you get the last 10 minutes of program B on the end of program A if you set it to 60 seconds? |
| [19:17:43] | tgm4883: | err |
| [19:17:48] | tgm4883: | 600 seconds |
| [19:18:07] | tgm4883: | you should only get the first 10 minutes of program B on the end of program A |
| [19:18:54] | tgm4883: | you've got the rule setup to "record program A, plus 10 more minutes on this channel" |
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| [19:29:07] | wayne__: | Sorry, stupid me. I meant to say I expect to get the first 10 minutes of B at the end of program A. I do not. So when A runs late, I have to switch to watch B to catch the end of A. Family is not pleased. |
| [19:29:58] | wayne__: | So my question is why is the "time to record past end of show" not working, when there is a scheduled show immediately after, BUT it is on the same channel. |
| [19:30:19] | tgm4883: | wayne__, you have verified that you have it set to that particular schedule? |
| [19:30:25] | wayne__: | It works fine normally. |
| [19:30:33] | tgm4883: | since the default values only work for new schedules |
| [19:31:09] | tgm4883: | advert detection (commflagging) shouldn't have any bearing on schedules |
| [19:31:14] | wayne__: | No, it's not part of the schedules, or the default applying to new schedules. This is the global setting "time to record past end of show" |
| [19:31:29] | tgm4883: | wayne__, that is exactly what I'm talking about |
| [19:31:39] | tgm4883: | that global setting just sets it per schedule |
| [19:31:45] | tgm4883: | and only applies to new schedules |
| [19:31:49] | tgm4883: | if I remember all that correctly |
| [19:32:12] | tgm4883: | sphery could clear that up for me if he's around |
| [19:37:27] | drussell_: | wayne__: you should be using the recording rule's 'record past end of show by x minutes' function, not relying on the global |
| [19:38:26] | drussell_: | wayne__: the global is only for if there is NOT a show following and the tuner would be idle, THEN record a few extra seconds anyway... You have a show following, so it switches which show it records at the scheduled time |
| [19:39:30] | sphery: | wayne__: yes, Pre/Post-roll commercial detection puts commercial markers at the start and end of the listed program run time |
| [19:39:46] | sphery: | so if you have "automatically skip commercials" enabled, it will ignore those parts of the show |
| [19:40:12] | sphery: | note that really "automatically skip commercials" makes no sense (even the guy who wrote the commercial detection code doesn't use it) |
| [19:40:36] | tgm4883: | I totally use it, and it works for me 95% of the time |
| [19:40:49] | tgm4883: | occasionally, it skips too much |
| [19:41:59] | drussell_: | yes I recommend manual commercial skip (ie Q/Z) unless all your sources do very accurate detection and that varies a lot by market and input type |
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| [19:42:14] | sphery: | and, yeah, tgm4883 is correct that you need to use per-recording rule "End late" and not "Time to record past end of show". That global setting is actually just meant to be used to allow your HDDs to spin up or your capture card to load firmware before the /first/ recording of a session |
| [19:42:35] | sphery: | i.e. it should be some value < 30s for basically everyone (but most abuse it thinking it's a good thing) |
| [19:43:20] | sphery: | but if you record 3 back-to-back shows on a tuner, the first show will get the Time to record before start of show and the 3rd show will get the Time to record past end of show, and the middle gets nothing |
| [19:43:41] | wayne__: | That doesn't explain why there is a setting for continuing to record this late. I've seen this discussed on the group. People in countries where the scheduling times are unreliable find it very useful |
| [19:44:10] | sphery: | there's a setting because the people who abuse it think it works and bi*** when we talk about removing it |
| [19:44:14] | sphery: | even though it doesn't work |
| [19:44:27] | wayne__: | It works for me nearly all the time. |
| [19:44:35] | sphery: | the proper approach is to tell MythTV to end late |
| [19:44:46] | sphery: | i.e. in the recording rule |
| [19:44:49] | sphery: | that's the /only/ way to do it |
| [19:44:51] | wayne__: | If I add an extra 10 minutes for EVERY scheduled show, THEN some shows will not be scheduled because it can't fit them in. |
| [19:45:08] | tgm4883: | wayne__, it works for you just as it was designed to |
| [19:45:20] | tgm4883: | wayne__, yes, that is how it works |
| [19:45:23] | sphery: | it may cause conflicts, but then you fix them to say, "since these shows are likely to be offset, here's the ones I want to record, and the specific parts of each that are important to me" |
| [19:45:29] | wayne__: | Wherease if MythTV tries to ADD 10 minutes where it can, but will sacrifice 10 minutes, I have a greater chance... |
| [19:45:45] | wayne__: | the flaw sphery is that in some counties you cannot tell which shows are likjely to be offset |
| [19:45:58] | tgm4883: | wayne__, but.. you just said it was working like that |
| [19:46:03] | tgm4883: | <wayne__> Wherease if MythTV tries to ADD 10 minutes where it can, but will sacrifice 10 minutes, I have a greater chance... |
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| [19:46:12] | tgm4883: | <wayne__> I have "time to record past end of show" set to 600 seconds. However if Program A is followed by Program B on the same channel, I do NOT get the last 10 minutes of B added to end of the A recording. Is this because my advert detection method is pre/post-roll? |
| [19:46:27] | wayne__: | My point is that there IS a case where it CAN add the extra 10 minutes, but does not. |
| [19:46:35] | tgm4883: | wayne__, where? |
| [19:46:47] | sphery: | wayne__: it's is /not/ meant to "do it if I can" |
| [19:47:00] | tgm4883: | it cannot add 10 minutes to the end of program A if Program B starts right after it? |
| [19:47:02] | sphery: | it's is /only/ meant to allow you to spin up hard drives and load firmware for capture cards |
| [19:47:15] | sphery: | the only proper way to say, "I think I need this extra time" is to tell MythTV to schedule it |
| [19:47:22] | jarle: | sphery: you've got a message waiting for you in #mythtv if you're not too busy in this channel :) |
| [19:47:24] | wayne__: | sphery, why do you need an extra time after the recording has finished then? |
| [19:47:33] | sphery: | and there will never be a "recording some padding around shows if you can" because there's no way to define it |
| [19:48:05] | tgm4883: | wayne__, it cannot add 10 minutes to the end of program A if Program B starts right after it, which is exactly what your original question was about right? |
| [19:48:06] | wayne__: | Except sphery that's exactly how it works now....honestly I understand where you are coming from |
| [19:48:09] | sphery: | i.e. if you way, "always record 10 minutes on the end if you can", and mythtv records from 8:00–8:30, it's supposed to record from 8:00–8:40, but then you have a show starting at 8:36, so what does mythtv do |
| [19:48:25] | sphery: | does it record from 8:00–8:30 or 8:00–8:36 |
| [19:48:46] | sphery: | and if you also say "and record 10 minutes on the beginning if you can", then does it record the 8:36 show starting at 8:36 |
| [19:48:52] | wayne__: | tgm4883, it's a multituner, but why can't it write data to TWO files |
| [19:48:53] | sphery: | or does it record that show at 8:30 |
| [19:49:09] | tgm4883: | wayne__, because it's not programmed to do that? |
| [19:49:16] | tgm4883: | wayne__, as always, patches accepted |
| [19:49:17] | wayne__: | sphery, I believe I get it recorded to 8:36 |
| [19:49:21] | sphery: | and who gets the overlap, the first, the last, both split it (and if so, how much--based on priority or split evenly or ...) |
| [19:49:37] | wayne__: | which is why I started asking about this in mythtv, rather than users |
| [19:49:40] | sphery: | in other words, there's no way to know exactly what *you* want MythTV to do, so /you/ must tell MythTV |
| [19:49:52] | sphery: | automatic "pad things because my guide data sucks" doesn't work |
| [19:50:05] | tgm4883: | wayne__, and if it's a multituner, then it should record program A on tuner 1 and program B on tuner 2 |
| [19:50:09] | sphery: | we've explored it in much detail and it cannot work reliably--especially worldwide |
| [19:50:10] | tgm4883: | and then you just pad it as normal |
| [19:50:11] | wayne__: | Yes, sphery I hear you, but I think there are LOTS of people who are very happy with how it works, now and it is clear. |
| [19:50:18] | wayne__: | A recording schedule FRCES behaviour |
| [19:50:22] | wayne__: | FORCES |
| [19:50:27] | sphery: | so we require the user to manually pad with recording rule overrides and end late and start early to say exactly what they want |
| [19:50:35] | wayne__: | the extra padding will be used if possible, but recording rules come first |
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| [19:51:29] | wayne__: | tgm4883, I think both tuners were in use, but it it can record 5 shows per tuner. But it doesn't use the padding in that case |
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| [19:52:10] | sphery: | wayne__: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/471185#471185 |
| [19:52:13] | wayne__: | I understand that sphery, but what is the problem with saying "and if you can, record an extra x seconds on the end of the show", which is what it currently does, and lots of people like? |
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| [19:52:30] | sphery: | wayne__: And, for more details than you could possibly want on why we don't have soft padding--or, more correctly, why soft padding can't possibly work--read (all 5 pages of) http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/195124#195124 . :)~ |
| [19:52:40] | jarle: | I have a title search for "Louis Theroux" matches all programs like "Louis Theroux: blablabla". (the description is empty, only the title of the show changes). How to I make it record all "Louis Theroux*" shows, but only one recording of each show? |
| [19:52:43] | sphery: | wayne__: that's not what it does |
| [19:53:04] | sphery: | it only records the extra before the first show recorded by the tuner and after the last show recorded by the tuner in any contiguous block of time |
| [19:53:19] | tgm4883: | wayne__, sphery so even if that is not what it is suppose to do, that is what it currently does, in which case, what is the question? |
| [19:53:25] | sphery: | because it's meant for compensating for slow hardware (HDD spin up or capture card firmware loading) |
| [19:53:29] | wayne__: | Thank you for your time sphery. I appreciate the link and shall go read it. I don't want to annoy you or waste your time. |
| [19:53:56] | wayne__: | sphery You keep saying it is for spin up time, but you enver explain why there is a setting for recording an extra x seconds at the END of a show. |
| [19:54:13] | sphery: | wayne__: let me just end it by saying that the "more details than you could possibly want" thread was discussing the implementation of it /that was coded up and used/--and shows why it didn't work |
| [19:54:41] | sphery: | this isn't a "well, they just don't want to code it" issue--it was coded, tested, and found to cause more problems than making the user tell MythTV what to record |
| [19:55:10] | sphery: | when you have bad guide data and you expect some automatic "do what you can" to compensate, it actually makes things worse |
| [19:55:25] | sphery: | and especially when the user believes it will fix things when it really won't |
| [19:55:36] | wayne__: | Can you please give me ONE example of how that could be. |
| [19:56:31] | sphery: | the proper solution is a) specify start early/end late per recording rule so you can say exactly how much each rule gets (and note that a -3 start early is a start late and -6 end late is an end early, to allow you to fix conflicts and b) if you don't want to be bothered by fixing the conflicts that can occur, get more tuners |
| [19:58:38] | wayne__: | So you can't show an example of where recording an extra x seconds at the end of a show causes any problems. |
| [19:58:41] | sphery: | wayne__: I did... you're thinking of "well, it's easy because my show is from here to here", but you're not acknowledging that other shows occurring at the same time around that show can impact MythTV's ability to get that extra, and--even more so--the fact that when you have multiple tuners, recording that extra may cause allocation of "the wrong" tuner to a later recording, which will result in an even later recording being impossible ... |
| [19:58:48] | sphery: | ... to record (because it's not available on the tuner that's available--i.e. it needed the tuner that was used for the middle program because the first program didn't yield its tuner so it could get the extra) |
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| [19:59:02] | sphery: | read the whole 5-page thread, though |
| [19:59:08] | sphery: | you'll see all the problems that come up |
| [19:59:21] | sphery: | and since the only solution to those problems is "user preference", we can't automate it |
| [20:00:26] | sphery: | i.e. /you/ must make the decision, "Since I can't get 'full' overlap on both of these shows, how much overlap do I want on each, or would I prefer to just miss one because I really like the other" |
| [20:00:46] | sphery: | again, though, it was written and tested and it didn't work |
| [20:01:04] | sphery: | and the only way we could " |
| [20:01:06] | wayne__: | I've read the 5 page thread, and it only supports me. Here it is put well: |
| [20:01:07] | wayne__: | Second, hard and soft buffers serve very different purposes. Hard |
| [20:01:08] | wayne__: | buffers are for correcting known differences between the guide data and |
| [20:01:08] | wayne__: | the actual schedule time. Soft buffers, on the other hand, are insurance |
| [20:01:08] | wayne__: | against unpredictable time shifts. |
| [20:01:08] | wayne__: | An example: say I have a global 5-minute end-late soft pad--maybe I |
| [20:01:08] | wayne__: | don't trust my system clock, or the network's. Say also that although |
| [20:01:10] | wayne__: | SURVIVOR is scheduled for 8–9pm each week, I have noticed that the |
| [20:01:12] | wayne__: | credits always run a minute longer. That is, the show is actually 61 |
| [20:01:14] | wayne__: | minutes long. |
| [20:01:16] | wayne__: | What I should do is simply extend the length of SURVIVOR by one minute. |
| [20:01:18] | wayne__: | I am thus using what I know to correct the guide data. But I am *not* |
| [20:01:20] | wayne__: | also saying I no longer wish to insure against clock drift. |
| [20:01:22] | sphery: | wow, you read (and understood) that 5 page thread very quickly |
| [20:01:37] | wayne__: | I've been reading about this for years. |
| [20:01:41] | sphery: | ok, let me just say, then, pull the branch and compile it and fix it to work for you |
| [20:01:59] | sphery: | the only way we could "fix" the code to work was by making arbitrary decisions about how to resolve overlap conflicts |
| [20:02:05] | sphery: | which is worse than just not even promising them |
| [20:02:15] | wayne__: | I think the code you ahve now is great |
| [20:02:26] | wayne__: | The way it works now is great. |
| [20:03:03] | wayne__: | So I'm just saying there is some cases where soft-padding could also be applied, that it currently doesn't. |
| [20:03:12] | wayne__: | Without affecting any schedule, or what else gets recorded. |
| [20:03:22] | sphery: | yes |
| [20:03:32] | wayne__: | If I make such a patch, would there be a philosophical objection to accept it? |
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| [20:03:41] | sphery: | we won't accept it |
| [20:04:10] | tgm4883: | so... is that a yes? |
| [20:04:11] | sphery: | as a matter of fact, removing the current pre-/post-roll settings (and hard coding them to a reasonable value) is far more likely (or maybe was done?) |
| [20:04:25] | sphery: | we could apply a soft padding in the simplest cases |
| [20:04:30] | sphery: | if we do, then users expect it |
| [20:04:37] | sphery: | and when cases are more complex, they say mythtv doesn't work |
| [20:04:47] | sphery: | even if we say, "we only apply padding in the simplest places" |
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| [20:05:01] | wayne__: | But you have soft-padding now |
| [20:05:17] | sphery: | so, we have chosen to instead not promise any soft padding and tell the user to tell MythTV /what they really want/ |
| [20:05:34] | sphery: | rather than trying to code up mind reading |
| [20:05:37] | sphery: | no, we don't |
| [20:05:44] | wayne__: | But you have a setting for soft-padding now. Which many people use, and as you say, complain if you suggest removing |
| [20:05:54] | wayne__: | Ummm, yes you do. |
| [20:06:01] | sphery: | we have a "tuner start/stop extra time to allow for HDD spin up or firmware loading" |
| [20:06:15] | sphery: | it only applies before the first recording on a tuner or after the last on a tuner in a session |
| [20:06:19] | sphery: | and is /not/ scheduled |
| [20:06:34] | sphery: | anyway, we won't go there |
| [20:06:40] | sphery: | been there, done that, didn't work |
| [20:06:59] | sphery: | so, either use recording rule start early/end late + manual conflict resolution |
| [20:07:03] | sphery: | or get more tuners |
| [20:07:13] | wayne__: | "Time to record past end of show (secs) |
| [20:07:14] | sphery: | so you don't get conflicts, even with recording rule start early/end late |
| [20:08:25] | wayne__: | "This global setting allows the recorder to record beyond the end of the scheduled end time. It does not affect the scheduler. It is ignored when two show have been scheduled without enough time in between." |
| [20:08:48] | wayne__: | Respectfully, it;s disingenious to suggest this is for "HDD spin up" |
| [20:09:02] | wayne__: | And the thread you referred to me, refers to this as soft-padding. |
| [20:09:25] | tgm4883: | wayne__, anyway..... doesn't that answer your question? |
| [20:09:28] | wayne__: | Except sphery, the code is there, it does work, people are using it, |
| [20:09:32] | tgm4883: | "It is ignored when two show have been scheduled without enough time in between." |
| [20:10:05] | wayne__: | Except tgm4883, there are cases (or a case) when soft-=padding could be used when it is not. |
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| [20:10:21] | tgm4883: | wayne__, by your original question, no there is not |
| [20:10:34] | wayne__: | I respectfully suggest if this case was included you have a better product, where my wife doesn't scream at me for losing the last minutes of NCIS |
| [20:10:46] | tgm4883: | when program A and program B are one right after the other |
| [20:10:57] | sphery: | wayne__: it can only be used in those cases by bumping recordings across to other tuners, which is not something we do |
| [20:10:58] | tgm4883: | there isn't enough space between the two |
| [20:11:14] | wayne__: | TGM4833 AND on the SAME channel |
| [20:11:17] | sphery: | i.e. it can only be used in those cases by /making/ it so that enough time is scheduled between recordings |
| [20:11:31] | tgm4883: | wayne__, so? |
| [20:11:44] | tgm4883: | I already explained why that won't work |
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| [20:11:58] | sphery: | the problem with the description is that a) there's no way to properly explain it in a small amount of space available in the setup help section and b) it's a setting that shouldn't exist |
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| [20:12:28] | sphery: | wayne__: again, the best solution is to get more tuners |
| [20:12:37] | tgm4883: | hmm |
| [20:12:43] | sphery: | wayne__: the price for choosing to "cheap out" on tuners is to manually fix conflicts |
| [20:13:10] | sphery: | if you like, you can pull the code from the softpad branch and try to make it work |
| [20:13:14] | sphery: | and maintain your own fork |
| [20:13:21] | sphery: | we have no interest in pursuing it |
| [20:13:22] | tgm4883: | sphery, sidebar... what if tuner 1 wasn't always attempted as the first tuner for scheduling? |
| [20:13:30] | sphery: | note, though, that branch was off 0.21, IIRC |
| [20:14:08] | tgm4883: | so program A runs from 8:00 to 8:30, and program B runs from 8:30 to 9:00. What if program A used tuner 1 and program B used tuner 2 |
| [20:14:21] | sphery: | tgm4883: moving recordings across tuners will affect tuner allocation, which will eventually (at least in systems with non-equivalent inputs) cause conflicts |
| [20:14:40] | wayne__: | sphery, your suggestion means I would add 10 minutes to end and 2 minutes to start of EVERY recording rule I have. Doesn't that strike you as something that would be better handled with a global setting |
| [20:15:03] | bas-t: | you could of course make some rules that are giving your wife's recordings the highest prio. That way you can avoid her yelling to you about NCIS ending early |
| [20:15:06] | sphery: | that said, there's another setting that was put in specifically to allow cheapskates without enough tuners who still believe that "bad data can be fixed by randomly recording extra" to say "don't record back-to-back shows on the same tuner" |
| [20:16:03] | sphery: | wayne__: in 0.25 and below, there's a global setting to do that: Default 'Start Early' minutes for new recording rules and Default 'End Late' minutes for new recording rules |
| [20:16:25] | sphery: | wayne__: in 0.26+, there's a global setting for that: edit your Default recording rule template to include the desired start early/end late |
| [20:16:35] | sphery: | then, all recording rules you create will include those values |
| [20:16:56] | tgm4883: | sphery, but for a multirec capable tuner, seems like it would be easy to move it to the other vtuner |
| [20:17:11] | tgm4883: | providing it wasn't already scheduled |
| [20:17:31] | sphery: | anyway, my position is, "if you want to overrecord and don't want to fix conflicts, get more tuners" |
| [20:17:38] | sphery: | and, again, we went down all these paths |
| [20:17:44] | sphery: | and they caused a ton of problems |
| [20:17:52] | sphery: | scheduling is never as easy as people believe |
| [20:17:59] | wayne__: | I was doing that, but it caused many conflicts. Since perhaps 1 show in 50 runs late, softpadding will nearly always catch those. It's the odds I play. |
| [20:18:27] | wayne__: | Can I jus then say I am so impressed with the scheduler. Thanks to you and all who work on it. It is smarter than me. |
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| [20:18:55] | tgm4883: | sphery, something like "schedule all recordings", "if multirec allows moving a back to back recording (eg. the other vtuner isn't scheduled AND it is on the same mplex) then move it", "add softpadding where available" |
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| [20:19:34] | wayne__: | And thank you for responding to me. I am saddened that you are so opposed to a change to existing soft-padding that you rule it out. |
| [20:20:13] | tgm4883: | sphery, alternatively, making back to back recordings on the same tuner/(channel) able to add to two files |
| [20:20:17] | tgm4883: | wayne__, what change would you make |
| [20:20:29] | wayne__: | As I have seen on the mailing list, in this area there seems to be some intransigence from people living in countries with more reliable program scheduling. Something you might like to think about... |
| [20:20:41] | tgm4883: | wayne__, just give me in english what you want it to do |
| [20:20:53] | tgm4883: | what is the desired behavior |
| [20:21:09] | sphery: | tgm4883: start early/end late will move the back-to-back recordings to alternate virtual tuner automatically without conflict |
| [20:21:09] | wayne__: | tgm4883 well important not to change the scheduler at all. There would be two cases |
| [20:21:26] | sphery: | so no need for a setting--just use start early/end late |
| [20:21:28] | tgm4883: | forget about all the softpadding/hardpadding talk. Just tell me what it should do in layman terms |
| [20:23:07] | sphery: | wayne__: I'm guessing (based on the 1 in 50), you're not in Australia |
| [20:23:21] | sphery: | there's is pretty close to 100% off schedule--sometimes > 20min |
| [20:23:43] | sphery: | but it all comes down to "Garbage in/garbage out" |
| [20:24:08] | sphery: | and how things like that get handled is pretty much only something the user can decide |
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| [20:24:16] | sphery: | and we've given them all the tools they need to make it work |
| [20:24:41] | sphery: | but, if you have garbage data, you may have to do some work to make it usable (i.e. manual conflict fixing) |
| [20:24:58] | wayne__: | What it does NOW, but extra smarts so that a) as you said, back to back recordings add to same file, or b) that multi-rec doesn't hog the same tuners so much |
| [20:25:13] | tgm4883: | wayne__, that isn't two use cases |
| [20:25:15] | wayne__: | Close, sphery. New Zealand. I think Australia has it much worse |
| [20:25:35] | tgm4883: | wayne__, I'm trying to figure out exactly what you want, so I can accurately say what parts need changing |
| [20:25:38] | sphery: | multi-rec doesn't hog the tuners |
| [20:25:53] | sphery: | that's what I said--it will automatically handle start early/end late overlaps with proper multirec config |
| [20:25:56] | wayne__: | sphery – a program running 1–2 minutes late is just a very common real world case, IMHO |
| [20:26:33] | sphery: | if you've done stupid things--like apply the bast***ized version of the workaround for "Live TV gets stuck on one mux" I gave before--it won't |
| [20:26:35] | tgm4883: | wayne__, you have to realize that over in the states we use Schedules Direct, so we have really good data to deal with |
| [20:26:41] | sphery: | if you use the proper workaround I described, it will |
| [20:27:30] | sphery: | plus, multi-rec works for back-to-back with overlap--it /is/ adding new tuners (the "more tuners so you don't get conflicts" approach I mentioned) |
| [20:27:39] | wayne__: | Here's what I get: Tuner 1 Records ProgA on TV2 at 0830, Tuner 2, Tuner 2Records ProgB on TV1 at 0845 (same multiplex), Tuner1 Records ProgC on TV2 at 0900 |
| [20:27:42] | sphery: | granted, they're "software tuners" that are locked to a mux, but... |
| [20:28:08] | sphery: | wayne__: what mythtv version |
| [20:28:17] | wayne__: | That means Tuner1 stops recording the 08030 show, if progC was recorded by Tuner3, then Tuner 1 could have continued recording past end of show according to soft-padding |
| [20:28:19] | sphery: | sounds like your multirec config is broken |
| [20:28:34] | sphery: | because if it's same mux, all 3 shows should be on physical tuner 1 |
| [20:28:42] | tgm4883: | wayne__, so I'm going to throw out the second thing you said (since it doesn't make sense), and just go with "I want 2 back to back recordings on the same channel to start 5 minutes early and end 5 minutes late and only use 1 tuner" |
| [20:29:01] | sphery: | if you have multirec ^^^ will work |
| [20:29:23] | sphery: | if you break multirec (by doing stupid things like alternating your tuner creation in 0.25 and below), it won't work |
| [20:29:23] | tgm4883: | sphery, it would only use one hardware tuner, but 2 virtual tuners right? |
| [20:29:28] | sphery: | right |
| [20:29:40] | tgm4883: | sphery, yea, that isn't what I'm getting at here |
| [20:29:50] | sphery: | then again, you could also break it by doing stupid things like setting channel and input priorities |
| [20:30:06] | tgm4883: | if that is accurate to what wayne__ wants, then it would be a fundamental change in the way recording works right? |
| [20:30:26] | sphery: | that will work if you have multirec |
| [20:30:28] | tgm4883: | but it would be beneficial to may different things |
| [20:30:35] | sphery: | and it's normal |
| [20:30:36] | tgm4883: | sphery, can't do multirec with an HDPVR |
| [20:30:39] | sphery: | right |
| [20:30:52] | tgm4883: | which is one of the more popular tuners isn't it? |
| [20:30:52] | sphery: | because no one has written code to add multirec for analog recorders |
| [20:31:00] | wayne__: | MythTV Version : v0.26.0-74-g72bca07 |
| [20:31:20] | tgm4883: | I lied, it's HDHR and DVB |
| [20:31:31] | sphery: | if you want that, you could write multirec for analog tuners (i.e. write to multiple files), and we'd accept that |
| [20:31:38] | tgm4883: | sphery, but you can't do multirec on an HDHR either, so my point stands |
| [20:31:39] | sphery: | we won't accept a soft-padding patch, though--because it won't work |
| [20:31:48] | sphery: | HDHR supports multirec |
| [20:31:52] | sphery: | HDHR Prime doesn't |
| [20:32:02] | tgm4883: | sphery, ah, I have the prime |
| [20:32:04] | sphery: | again because it needs the "analog" multirec support |
| [20:32:19] | tgm4883: | sphery, I don't even think it needs analog multirec support |
| [20:32:30] | tgm4883: | (since it wouldn't really be multirec anyway) |
| [20:32:44] | sphery: | i.e. HDHR Prime and HD-PVR are basically "analog" tuners because we don't have any mux type tuning |
| [20:33:04] | sphery: | no, it's multirec |
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| [20:33:20] | sphery: | it's just not "multirec of different channels on a single mux" |
| [20:33:21] | tgm4883: | sphery, potato potato ;) |
| [20:33:26] | tgm4883: | right |
| [20:33:31] | sphery: | but, yeah, I see what you're saying |
| [20:33:41] | sphery: | but if implemented, it should be done the same as multirec is done |
| [20:34:02] | sphery: | i.e. no need for new things just for those tuners when we have a useful infrastructure already |
| [20:34:03] | tgm4883: | sphery, I'm completely out of my element right now as I don't know how the backend does recordings |
| [20:34:26] | tgm4883: | sphery, I'm assuming that the backend just gets a stream and writes it to a file? |
| [20:34:27] | sphery: | (and, ttbomk, the HDHR Prime and HD-PVR use the same classes as the analog recorders do) |
| [20:34:35] | sphery: | pretty much |
| [20:34:49] | tgm4883: | sphery, why must the backend only have a single file for a recording? |
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| [20:35:05] | sphery: | because no one has yet felt it was worth the effort to write multirec for analog recorders |
| [20:35:08] | tgm4883: | sphery, eg. why can't a recording be a playlist? |
| [20:35:30] | sphery: | we've been saying for literally years that we would accept a patch to do so, but no one has stepped up to write |
| [20:35:30] | tgm4883: | is it not possible for that to be seemless? |
| [20:35:37] | tgm4883: | ah |
| [20:35:51] | sphery: | and none of the developers find it interesting enough to do it |
| [20:36:02] | sphery: | especially since analog recording was becoming far less common for a whlie |
| [20:36:19] | sphery: | the CableCARD support has increased its usage, but still someone needs to step up and write the support |
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| [20:36:24] | tgm4883: | sphery, because if that was the case, it would be easy enough to pad back to back recordings by just making the overlapping parts a single file and adjusting the playlist |
| [20:36:33] | tgm4883: | wayne__, ^^ |
| [20:36:54] | sphery: | we'd actually want to record one stream to 2 files |
| [20:37:01] | sphery: | because that way, you can delete episodes individually |
| [20:37:09] | sphery: | i.e. multirec for analog\ |
| [20:37:41] | tgm4883: | sphery, well you could do that anyway right? 2 programs might have a total of three files (sharing only one of them) |
| [20:38:00] | sphery: | otherwise, you may delete a show that's in the middle of a string, and don't regain any space from doing so, until eventually autoexpire decides to delete a bunch of connected files and upset the user |
| [20:38:03] | tgm4883: | and that extra file that contains the overlap would only be deleted when both are deleted |
| [20:38:28] | wayne__: | I'm really grateful for you giving me your time. One more question then. Here's my upcoming recordings. So why is Tuner 1 used immediately, when by using Tuner 2, softpadded extended recording could continue on Tuner 1. The next 10 shows that are scheduled for recording: |
| [20:38:28] | wayne__: | Today 10:00 am – Encoder 1 – Maori Television – Korero Mai |
| [20:38:29] | wayne__: | Today 11:00 am – Encoder 1 – TV2 – Shortland Street |
| [20:38:47] | sphery: | yeah, but we also want individual shows to "stand on their own" so that they can be played by any player |
| [20:39:04] | sphery: | easiest solution is to write the code that allows the "analog" tuners to write to multiple files |
| [20:39:13] | sphery: | all the infrastructure is in place |
| [20:39:23] | tgm4883: | sphery, why though? I don't see why internal mythtv files (recordings) should be played directly |
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| [20:39:59] | sphery: | wayne__: if you're asking "why don't I get soft padding on the additional shows", it's because we don't support soft padding |
| [20:40:12] | tgm4883: | sphery, especially when mythtv frontend is moving away from allowing external players and the services API now exists for requesting shows |
| [20:40:14] | sphery: | wayne__: if you do a start early/end late on the recording rules, they will get padding through multirec |
| [20:41:09] | sphery: | well, in my opinion, writing "proprietary" data formats when a standard format will work is just the right thing to do |
| [20:41:16] | sphery: | er, standard is the right thing to do |
| [20:41:30] | sphery: | proprietary (lock you in to our player) is wrong |
| [20:41:34] | wayne__: | This is true sphery. If I set the recording rule to add 10 minutes to Korero Mai, it forces Shortland Street on to Tuner 2. But if MythTV would just cycle through Tuners (1–5,1–5) cyclically, the softpadding would work automagically. |
| [20:41:36] | tgm4883: | sphery, well I'm unsure it's proprietary |
| [20:41:43] | tgm4883: | sphery, it's still h264/mpeg2/etc |
| [20:41:51] | tgm4883: | we're just adding a playlist |
| [20:42:22] | sphery: | wayne__: and Maori Television and TV2 are different muxes? |
| [20:42:35] | sphery: | and mythtv does cycle through tuners in the schedule order you specify |
| [20:42:43] | wayne__: | They are different muxes |
| [20:42:47] | tgm4883: | wayne__, we've referenced what should be worked on, if you decide in fact you want to submit a patch |
| [20:43:14] | tgm4883: | one that won't be rejected for philosophical reasons |
| [20:43:17] | sphery: | tgm4883: that said, it's easier to code up support for just writing the content to multiple files |
| [20:43:27] | sphery: | and users who are offended by the space wasted can simply chop of the extra |
| [20:43:51] | sphery: | and users (like me) who feel that HDD space is cheaper than their time can just leave it and delete it as they watch it |
| [20:43:52] | tgm4883: | sphery, ok, if it's easier to do it that way, that sounds better to me |
| [20:43:54] | sphery: | :) |
| [20:44:01] | tgm4883: | HDD space is cheap |
| [20:44:04] | tgm4883: | so I'm OK with it |
| [20:44:07] | wayne__: | tgm4883, I _might_ go down that path, but I'd want to get back to you for a better briefing. And I'd probably need to buy an anlog tuner. :-) |
| [20:44:14] | sphery: | it's definitely easier--we already have multirec support in MythTV and the scheduler |
| [20:44:35] | sphery: | so it's just a matter of adding support for it to the code that writes out files from analog encoders |
| [20:44:40] | tgm4883: | sphery, it might be easier, but I think the other solution provides more benefits |
| [20:44:53] | sphery: | only real benefit would be the space savings ,right? |
| [20:44:58] | wayne__: | The tuners (and multi-rec tuners) do NOT appear cyclical. It seems always, lowest number taken, viz: The next 10 shows that are scheduled for recording: |
| [20:44:58] | wayne__: | Today 10:00 am – Encoder 1 – Maori Television – Korero Mai |
| [20:44:58] | wayne__: | Today 11:00 am – Encoder 1 – TV2 – Shortland Street |
| [20:44:58] | wayne__: | Today 12:00 pm – Encoder 1 – TV ONE – Mucking In |
| [20:44:58] | wayne__: | Today 12:00 pm – Encoder 6 – Maori Television – Korero Mai |
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| [20:45:01] | wayne__: | Today 2:00 pm – Encoder 6 – Maori Television – Korero Mai |
| [20:45:03] | wayne__: | Today 2:55 pm – Encoder 1 – FOUR – Peppa Pig |
| [20:45:05] | wayne__: | Today 3:05 pm – Encoder 6 – TV2 – Pocoyo |
| [20:45:07] | wayne__: | Today 3:05 pm – Encoder 1 – FOUR – Dora The Explorer |
| [20:45:09] | wayne__: | Today 3:30 pm – Encoder 1 – TV9 – History Legend |
| [20:45:11] | wayne__: | Today 4:00 pm – Encoder 2 – Radio NZ Concert – Made in New Zealand |
| [20:45:13] | justinh: | tgm4883: you guys ever run into folks with WoL issues? Might want to watch out for people using the sky2 module.. sometimes they'll need the legacy_pme=1 option. It's BIOS dependant though |
| [20:45:16] | tgm4883: | sphery, you could get away with less tuners too |
| [20:45:40] | tgm4883: | justinh, I don't recall seeing that issue, but I only check the forums for certain keywords |
| [20:45:47] | justinh: | tgm4883: was bashing my head against a wall for weeks trying to bottom this one out. |
| [20:45:52] | sphery: | wayne__: if you have digital tuners (i.e. ones that tune to a multiplex and send some or all of the stream to MythTV), you already have support for what you want |
| [20:45:57] | tgm4883: | justinh, do you have it documented anywhere? |
| [20:45:58] | sphery: | just need to schedule those start early/end lates |
| [20:46:07] | justinh: | tgm4883: no, I'm currently between blogs ;-) |
| [20:46:29] | tgm4883: | justinh, I'd recommend documenting it on askubuntu.com which is where we've moved a lot of our content |
| [20:46:38] | wayne__: | But because that is HARD padding sphery, I will miss more shows (as being unable to be scheduled). |
| [20:46:44] | justinh: | as I said it's BIOS dependent.. so their mileage may vary |
| [20:46:48] | tgm4883: | it's a question/answer format, so you'd need to ask and answer your own question |
| [20:46:58] | sphery: | wayne__: and which encoders are virtual and which are physical? I'm guessing you've set up 1–5 as virtual tuners on the first physical and 6–10 as the virtual on the 2nd physical |
| [20:47:00] | justinh: | heh. that's a bit MPD even for me |
| [20:47:13] | sphery: | wayne__: in which case it's doint exactly what it should, and you're getting some nice multirec action when you hit encoder 2 |
| [20:47:16] | tgm4883: | justinh, it's encouraged there |
| [20:47:34] | sphery: | and in cases where you're not getting multirec, it's because you're not recording from multiple channels on the same mux |
| [20:47:42] | justinh: | it'll apply to ubuntu actually.. any distro using a recentish kernel will be affected |
| [20:47:52] | justinh: | bloomin broken BIOSes. grrr |
| [20:48:06] | wayne__: | And it's just a thought, but if the encoder selection was cyclical, rather than lowest, then soft-padding would work more often, with no harm, change or any side-effect |
| [20:48:14] | justinh: | or to put it another way.. darn kernel developers, believing everything the BIOS says LOL |
| [20:48:15] | sphery: | tgm4883: with "write to multiple files" you'd get away with fewer tuners, too |
| [20:48:30] | sphery: | it's the same solution, just uses a bit more space |
| [20:48:53] | tgm4883: | sphery, sorry, I guess my brain wasn't working well there :/ |
| [20:49:17] | sphery: | i.e. i'm recording from channel 3 from 8:00–8:30 and from 8:30–9:00 and I put a 5-min start early/end late on both and so the 8:25–8:35 gets written to 2 files at once |
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| [20:49:25] | sphery: | but all comes from one tuner |
| [20:49:28] | tgm4883: | sphery, actually wait |
| [20:49:48] | tgm4883: | sphery, the only thing it would allow you to do is softpadding |
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| [20:50:19] | tgm4883: | "shared file" that is |
| [20:50:20] | sphery: | yes |
| [20:50:25] | sphery: | same with playlist |
| [20:50:39] | sphery: | which is why no one has felt "analog" multirec was worth the effort |
| [20:50:40] | tgm4883: | "multi file" wouldn't allow you to do softpadding, you'd have the same thing you have now |
| [20:50:58] | tgm4883: | only extended to HDHRCC and HDPVR |
| [20:50:58] | sphery: | we won't ever do soft padding |
| [20:51:00] | sphery: | it won't work |
| [20:51:10] | sphery: | we'll always require the user to specify when to overlap |
| [20:51:33] | wayne__: | Except you already have soft-padding.....OK, another question: |
| [20:51:34] | wayne__: | I would expect that when MythTV needs free space, it would removed recordings marked as Deleted first. But if "time to retain deleted recordings" is 1 day, then AutoExpire picks other shows first. The "wait 1 day" is enforced, even when space is needed. This is not the behaviour I would expect. |
| [20:51:34] | tgm4883: | sphery, I've not read that thread, but I think it would work with "multi file" |
| [20:51:36] | sphery: | which they decide based on whether they have sufficient (physical or virtual) tuners and/or they're willing to fix conflicts |
| [20:52:18] | sphery: | so, multirec (or your playlist option) is just another way of increasing the number of tuners without an outlay of actual money for tuner hardware or STBs or cablecard or ... |
| [20:52:22] | tgm4883: | sphery, where it 1) Schedule all recordings (including ones with hard padding) 2) add soft padding where available |
| [20:52:34] | sphery: | but we can't do soft paddign |
| [20:52:42] | sphery: | because even with multirec, you'll get conflicts |
| [20:52:59] | tgm4883: | sphery, unless I'm mistaken, you can't have conflicts with softpadding |
| [20:53:04] | sphery: | on digital muxes withmultiple channels |
| [20:53:20] | tgm4883: | by definition, doesn't it only add padding when it doesn't conflict? |
| [20:53:31] | sphery: | well, that's the part we're not ever going to do |
| [20:53:37] | sphery: | because you'll get conflicts |
| [20:53:47] | sphery: | which means you'll have to decide when to forego the soft padding' |
| [20:54:28] | wayne__: | sphery, we already have the soft-padding....what do you mean that is the part we're not ever going to do |
| [20:54:31] | sphery: | and when you do, do you do none, some (and if so, on which recording--and how do you decide, based on priority or ...--and if so, how much on each) |
| [20:54:39] | sphery: | which are unsolvable problems |
| [20:54:41] | tgm4883: | sphery, i'm sorry, I think I might be in the same boat with wayne__ and not understand |
| [20:54:46] | sphery: | they're only solvable by user choice |
| [20:54:47] | tgm4883: | sphery, well, they aren't unsolvable |
| [20:54:53] | tgm4883: | we just solved some of them :) |
| [20:54:55] | sphery: | which is what start early/end late in recording rules allow users to specify |
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| [20:55:02] | sphery: | i.e. just tell us what you want and we do it |
| [20:55:07] | sphery: | and don't be lazy about it :) |
| [20:55:11] | tgm4883: | <sphery> and when you do, do you do none, some (and if so, on which recording--and how do you decide, based on priority or ...--and if so, how much on each) |
| [20:55:15] | sphery: | no, we didn't solve them |
| [20:55:25] | sphery: | we still have conflicts |
| [20:55:32] | sphery: | now which recording gets the padding? |
| [20:55:35] | tgm4883: | "multi file" that would place the overlapping parts in a separate file and have it referenced by both |
| [20:55:36] | sphery: | do both? |
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| [20:55:50] | sphery: | multi-file only works if you have the same channel |
| [20:55:58] | wayne__: | Currently MythTV will schedule, and THEN it will add a global setting of extra time (soft-padding) if there is no conflict. What is the problem with that? |
| [20:55:58] | sphery: | 99.99999% of users probably have more than one channel |
| [20:55:59] | sphery: | :) |
| [20:56:02] | tgm4883: | sphery, base it on priority? |
| [20:56:12] | sphery: | ok, so higher priority gets it all |
| [20:56:21] | sphery: | and when we document, we say, because that's what tgm4883 wanted? |
| [20:56:30] | sphery: | because otheruser said he wants to split the difference |
| [20:56:36] | tgm4883: | sphery, no, we say, "because you said it's higher priority" |
| [20:56:59] | sphery: | and anotheruseraltogether said he wants to split the difference weighted by priority |
| [20:57:02] | tgm4883: | higher priority means that show is more important to the user? |
| [20:57:35] | sphery: | because, of course, the users set more overlap than they need, "Because it's free and it solves all my problems", so they really didn't need it all on high-prio program, but they wanted some on lower=prio program |
| [20:57:55] | sphery: | so now they miss the start of lower-prio program just because it was 1 priority lower |
| [20:58:07] | tgm4883: | sphery, not to be an ass, but aren't we already making arbitrary decisions "eg. we absolutely don't want to have softpadding because we can't decide on what rules to set" |
| [20:58:29] | sphery: | and that 1 priority lower was actually a priority 98 where the first show was a 99 and the 3rd show is actually prio -87 |
| [20:58:32] | wayne__: | If your opposition to soft-padding is because some users might misunderstand the feature, and want more fuctionality than you are willing to code, there's a lot more in MythTV that should be taken out ;-) |
| [20:58:46] | sphery: | so 98 prio was actully a very well-liked-by-the-user show |
| [20:59:16] | tgm4883: | sphery, slightly off topic, but is it really necessary to have 200 levels of priority? |
| [20:59:17] | sphery: | no, my opposition is due to the fact that the only way to decide what to do when there's a conflict is have the user specify |
| [20:59:28] | sphery: | and we /already/ have all the tools to allow them to do that without soft padding |
| [20:59:31] | sphery: | i.e. use start early/end late |
| [20:59:43] | sphery: | and let multirec + more physical tuners solve conflicts |
| [20:59:49] | tgm4883: | sphery, yes, providing the answer is also "throw money at the problem" |
| [20:59:53] | wayne__: | But I'm willing to have a lucky dip. I specify hard padding when I know the show is always late or I absolutely can't miss the start/end. |
| [20:59:53] | sphery: | or, if you don't want to get more physical tuners, manually solve conflicts |
| [21:00:16] | sphery: | no, the answer is "tell mythtv what you want, and it will do it" |
| [21:00:28] | sphery: | not "read the user's mind" |
| [21:00:33] | wayne__: | But I get free sprinkles on my ice cream, when the 2% case happens, and I still get the end of Dora the Explorer, without sacrificing the scheduling of other shows |
| [21:00:35] | sphery: | not "do it the way I want for every user" |
| [21:01:17] | sphery: | besides, if you have 2 weeks of listings data, manually fixing the conflicts isn't that hard--just look at upcoming recordings once every 2 weeks |
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| [21:01:21] | tgm4883: | sphery, I agree, that mythtv does exactly what you tell it to do. But I sometimes feel that you are unable to do something because of a philosophical reason instead of a technical limitation |
| [21:01:28] | sphery: | 26 times per year, so you don't have to buy yourself another tuner |
| [21:01:37] | sphery: | or just get a tuner if you want "just do the right thing" |
| [21:02:27] | sphery: | anyway, in that 5-page thread, there are many examples of "what should we do?" "how about X" where X is just someone's opinion and other people had other preferences for how it's handled |
| [21:02:36] | wayne__: | 2% of shows, not 26 times per year, so about 400 shows per year. |
| [21:03:01] | tgm4883: | wayne__, he is saying you only have to look 26 times a year |
| [21:03:04] | wayne__: | But the thread didn't have any conclusion that we shouldn't have it. Respectfully, that's a rather distorted spin on the thread. |
| [21:03:10] | sphery: | and /every single one/ of the cases--including those that caused scheduling problems and those that didn't--could be solved by the user just putting in the appropriate recording rules to tell MythTV what to do without adding any new functionality |
| [21:03:24] | tgm4883: | although I'd argue that one a week is what you should check |
| [21:03:25] | sphery: | i.e. we need you to tell us what to do |
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| [21:03:44] | sphery: | otherwise, we're just doing what someone wants to do, and others will likely find it not to their liking |
| [21:04:28] | wayne__: | But the shows running late are unpredictable. It's a feature. Lots of people like it. It's not a guarantee. There are tools to make a guarantee, but at a cost. But there is FREE insurance, that doesn't always pay off. But it's free. |
| [21:05:33] | wayne__: | I really appreciate your time. I ma going to look at how tuners are assigned, because a simple change there seems to me (tell me I'm wrong), to just allow the existing soft-padding code to work for free. |
| [21:05:40] | sphery: | wayne__: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/238199#238199 |
| [21:05:48] | sphery: | from the scheduler expert, himself |
| [21:05:52] | wagnerrp: | wayne__: if you want something like that, that behavior should be programmed in properly |
| [21:06:14] | wayne__: | Can I ask you to comment on the automatic deleting of recordings. I would expect that when MythTV needs free space, it would removed recordings marked as Deleted first. But if "time to retain deleted recordings" is 1 day, then AutoExpire picks other shows first. The "wait 1 day" is enforced, even when space is needed. This is not the behaviour I would expect. |
| [21:06:19] | wagnerrp: | which means something that goes back through any conflicts as a final pass after all the decisions have been made, and checks if some of the show can be recorded |
| [21:06:20] | sphery: | wayne__: tuners are assigned correctly |
| [21:06:30] | wagnerrp: | which would then get replaced by a later showing |
| [21:06:32] | sphery: | again, I explained exactly what's happening to yours, abvoe\\ |
| [21:06:38] | sphery: | you just don't understand what the numbers mean |
| [21:07:08] | tgm4883: | sphery, that makes sense |
| [21:07:31] | wagnerrp: | wayne__: "deleted" recordings are always deleted first if the system needs space, even if they have not yet been around their preset amount of time |
| [21:07:33] | wayne__: | sphery, with respect, I do understand. But they are clearly not cyclical as you started., |
| [21:07:43] | wagnerrp: | that time is the maximum a deleted recording might be retained, not a minimum |
| [21:07:57] | wagnerrp: | it will always be deleted after that period, but it may be deleted before hand |
| [21:08:05] | sphery: | wayne__: they are |
| [21:08:07] | tgm4883: | sphery, so the best course of action is to add multirec to analog tuners |
| [21:08:08] | sphery: | what's not cyclical |
| [21:08:17] | sphery: | you've enabled 5 multirec virtual tuners per physical |
| [21:08:17] | wayne__: | wagnerrp: That's NOT what happened to me. Instead recordings were deleted from the autoexpire list first, and then the "flagged for deleted" ones were deleted after a day |
| [21:08:32] | sphery: | it's using 1, but if it needs multirec, 2 will be used at the same time |
| [21:08:36] | wayne__: | wagnerrp: So if I can demonstrate that behaviour, it would be a bug |
| [21:08:41] | sphery: | it will use 6 when it needs something off another mux |
| [21:08:41] | wagnerrp: | if that happened, and it is verifiable, that would be a bug |
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| [21:09:14] | wagnerrp: | deletion flagged recordings should always be deleted first, then livetv, then the autoexpire list |
| [21:09:30] | sphery: | wayne__: Live TV is deleted with prejudice, then recordings marked as Deleted, then other recordings that allow auto-expire |
| [21:09:40] | wagnerrp: | or that |
| [21:09:42] | tgm4883: | lol |
| [21:09:42] | wayne__: | wagnerrp: Thanks. I shall investigate. Appreciate your genius, and others. |
| [21:09:49] | tgm4883: | perfect timing |
| [21:09:57] | sphery: | wayne__: you're probably seeing the result of a bug where if you hit R while in LIve TV the recording group isn't changed to Default, so that show is actually still Live TV and gets deleted |
| [21:10:31] | sphery: | also, Live TV is generally deleted after a day and Deleted recordings can be removed from the file system after a while (up to a year, IIRC) |
| [21:10:45] | sphery: | neither of which is actually auto-expiration (which only occurs when file systems that are in use are full) |
| [21:10:47] | tgm4883: | sphery, perhaps it would be beneficial to gather information in smolt regarding schedules? |
| [21:11:19] | tgm4883: | nm, looks like it already does |
| [21:11:20] | wayne__: | No sphery, nothing to do with live recording. I manually deleted 200 Gb of shows, as was getting low on space. The next day, the Watched shows Penn and Teller had been deleted (but not watched by my chuildren!), but the shows I had manually deleted were still in the Deleted view, and only went 24 hours after I had manually marked them, |
| [21:11:58] | justinh: | tgm4883: done :-) |
| [21:12:04] | tgm4883: | justinh, link? |
| [21:12:09] | sphery: | wayne__: then the problem was that the Penn and Teller episodes were on a file system without any of the 200GB of deleted shows (or any Live TV), which is why they were deleted |
| [21:12:17] | justinh: | arghh.. "03:00.0 Ethernet controller: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88E8053 PCI-E Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 22) Subsystem: AOPEN Inc. Device 0607 Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 43 Memory at fdefc000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16K] |
| [21:12:20] | sphery: | and they were deleted because you've enabled auto-expire of Watched before Unwatched |
| [21:12:34] | justinh: | tgm4883 I can't answer my own question because... lame |
| [21:12:43] | justinh: | I have to wait 7 hours :-\ |
| [21:13:02] | justinh: | http://askubuntu.com/questions/243590 |
| [21:13:06] | sphery: | wayne__: auto-expiration is done on a per-filesystem basis, not a per-storage group or ... |
| [21:13:51] | sphery: | wayne__: so if you have "unbalanced" file systems (with no Live TV or Deleted recordings on some) and MythTV decides to use one with only "good" shows on it, it will expire a good show |
| [21:14:05] | ** sphery just wrote up a long description of this on list ** | |
| [21:14:19] | wayne__: | Thanks sphery, so if I have 3 drives: A,B,C and I mark for deleting files that happen to all be on A, and all 3 are short of space, MythTV will just choose files how? Surely it should still delete the marked for deletion first? |
| [21:14:24] | tgm4883: | justinh, it must be because you are a new user |
| [21:14:30] | tgm4883: | sorry, I didn't know that |
| [21:14:50] | sphery: | wayne__: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/537186#537186 |
| [21:15:17] | justinh: | tgm4883: I can let you have my answer in a pastebin if you like :-) |
| [21:15:24] | tgm4883: | sure |
| [21:15:39] | tgm4883: | I can post it, or you can do it later if you want the points |
| [21:16:12] | sphery: | wayne__: MythTV chooses a directory (which chooses a file system) based on the Storage Group Disk Scheduler, then if that file system is full, it will start deleting things according to the normal approach |
| [21:16:40] | sphery: | wayne__: MythTV doesn't (and can't) choose which file system to use based on space available after auto-expire because we don't know which file system any recording is on |
| [21:16:51] | justinh: | oh dear GOD.. wth has happened to pastebin.com? |
| [21:16:58] | sphery: | wayne__: in the future we will, then we will make decisions about where to record more appropriately |
| [21:17:05] | wagnerrp: | eh? |
| [21:17:07] | sphery: | wayne__: until then, you must "manually" balance your file systems |
| [21:17:09] | tgm4883: | justinh, pastebin.ubuntu.com |
| [21:17:15] | wagnerrp: | justinh? |
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| [21:18:14] | wayne__: | Thanks sphery, that's extraordinarily helpful. That must be what happened. File system chosen first, then delete stuff from that. Thanks so much. |
| [21:18:18] | justinh: | tgm4883: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1535615/ |
| [21:18:29] | sphery: | wayne__: if you delete a bunch of shows, but aren't show where they are, you may want to then remove them from the file system, too... In Watch Recordings, MENU|Change Group Filter|Deleted, then highlight Deleted in the left column, then MENU|Add this Group to Playlist, then MENU|Playlist Options|Delete |
| [21:18:38] | wagnerrp: | "don't like ads? pro users don't see any ads".... i wonder i'm not seeing any because i'm blocking any javascript from facebook |
| [21:18:55] | justinh: | wagnerrp: I went to pastebin.com & tried to enter text.. but it just kept opening a blank window |
| [21:19:06] | sphery: | wayne__: then, after you realize, "oh, no, that removed 200GB from one of the 3 file systems," you may want to shuffle some of the recordings around--which you can do with a simple mv or whatever |
| [21:19:29] | justinh: | oh.. works in Chrome just fine.. where there's an ad blocker |
| [21:19:34] | wayne__: | sphery: Great tip thank you. |
| [21:19:49] | tgm4883: | justinh, done |
| [21:20:08] | justinh: | cheers :-) |
| [21:20:10] | sphery: | wayne__: also, if you have full file systems, you should almost definitely not use Balanced Free Space Storage Group Disk Scheduler (see last para of linked post) |
| [21:20:18] | justinh: | I'd have waited til tomorrow but I'd only forget |
| [21:20:58] | wagnerrp: | sphery: we could have the auto-expirer pre-compute weightings for the disk scheduler, so it would prefer to record on disks with older recordings |
| [21:22:23] | sphery: | yeah, though once we have teh "last seen in" field for recorded files, we'll be able to modify balanced free space and balanced percent free space to take into account live tv and deleted and autoexpirable |
| [21:22:41] | sphery: | and we'll be able to create a new "auto-expire order" disk scheduler (which I think many users would prefer) |
| [21:23:14] | sphery: | as we don't go in auto-expire order, now, since we choose file system first |
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| [21:23:28] | ** sphery needs to work on that ** | |
| [21:24:07] | wagnerrp: | sphery: i suppose that would be easier to accomplish once i get my file scanner in, and we actually know where recordings are being stored at any given time |
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| [21:24:23] | wagnerrp: | as opposed to having to go search for everything on every pass |
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| [21:24:53] | wagnerrp: | is there any way to detect if a disk is spun up or not? |
| [21:26:11] | wayne__: | sphery: I saw that but don't see what advantages any other Storage Scheduler would offer me, given I have a powerful machine with no IO limitations |
| [21:26:39] | wagnerrp: | it's always a good idea to spread recordings out among however many drives you have |
| [21:26:48] | justinh: | wagnerrp: smartctl ? |
| [21:26:53] | wagnerrp: | if nothing else, it keeps fragmentation down when performing multiple simultaneous recordings |
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| [21:28:15] | AndyCap: | wagnerrp: seems there might be away in smartcl http://blogmal.42.org/patches/smartmontools/s . . . ospinup.diff |
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| [21:28:39] | wagnerrp: | i was hoping more for some kind of generic POSIX ioctl |
| [21:28:58] | AndyCap: | wagnerrp: maybe in another 10 years. |
| [21:28:58] | wagnerrp: | something cross platform that the file scanner could pick up on and decide not to run |
| [21:29:34] | AndyCap: | wagnerrp: and you're lucky if it doesn't involve Jörg Schilling. |
| [21:29:47] | sphery: | wayne__: storage group disk scheduler chooses which file system to use--if you use balanced free space and have a full file system, the feedback loop means you'll probably just put all new shows on the same file system (and only delete shows from that file system)--i.e. chooses most free space available, but it's not enough to record the new show, so it deletes a show, which makes more free space available, which means it chooses the same ... |
| [21:29:53] | sphery: | ... one next time, and deletes more from that one and your 200GB of Deleted recordings on the other file system sit there forever while you keep deleting good shows from the one |
| [21:30:05] | sphery: | wayne__: i.e. Balanced Free Space (or Balanced Percent Free Space) is probably why it did what you say it do |
| [21:30:15] | wagnerrp: | berlios is dead? |
| [21:30:33] | sphery: | whereas with others like combination or balanced I/O, it would at least use other file systems when you have concurrent recordings |
| [21:30:45] | sphery: | what you saw it do |
| [21:30:56] | AndyCap: | wagnerrp: btw, what would you call that ioctl on? won't opening a filehandle spin up the drive normally? |
| [21:30:59] | sphery: | (I wasn't question whether it did what you said--that was just a typo :) |
| [21:32:09] | sphery: | not to mention all the other reasons wagnerrp gave (which are very good reasons for using combination or balanced i/o) |
| [21:33:26] | wagnerrp: | andycap: i figured it would only spin up the drive if the information were not currently held in the disk cache |
| [21:34:00] | wayne__: | sphery, wagnerrp: That's very helpful. So with multiple nearly full drives and multiple tuners, Combination seems the best choice? |
| [21:34:22] | wagnerrp: | isn't that the default choice? |
| [21:34:27] | sphery: | wagnerrp: especially because of the "always delete to Deleted recgroup" and the whole, "balanced free space makes no sense with full file systems", plus the reasons you gave, I'd think we should change the default disk scheduler back to combination or balanced i/o |
| [21:35:00] | wagnerrp: | combination used to be the only choice for a long time |
| [21:35:11] | sphery: | pretty sure it got changed to balanced free space because users were adding new drives and it was recording to the full drive and the empty drive instead of putting all on the empty |
| [21:35:12] | wagnerrp: | but even when capt'm put in alternatives, i thought that was still at least the default |
| [21:35:17] | sphery: | wayne__: I use combination |
| [21:35:59] | sphery: | yeah, current default is balanced free space |
| [21:36:02] | wagnerrp: | sphery: seems like that might be something well suited for a daily maintenance task |
| [21:36:20] | wagnerrp: | shuffling recordings around so you never have an excessive disparity between free space |
| [21:36:26] | sphery: | yeah, would be nice |
| [21:36:33] | sphery: | but really needs the "what's where" info |
| [21:36:44] | wagnerrp: | so when you do add a new drive, it might free up 50GB or so on the other disks |
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| [21:37:37] | sphery: | yeah, that plus an auto-expire aware scheduler would be ideal |
| [21:38:07] | sphery: | so you could maintain balanced free space + I/O + auto-expire order |
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| [22:17:53] | justinh: | gawd, from theming to designing a remote layout for a smartphone... |
| [22:18:11] | justinh: | it's all inkscape this, xml editor that :) |
| [22:18:29] | wizbit: | /s/inkscape/illustrator |
| [22:18:44] | justinh: | no Adobe rubbish here. I can't afford it |
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