MythLogBot@irc.freenode.net :: #mythtv-users

Daily chat history

Current users (155):

adante, akv, aloril_, amessina, AndyCap, anykey_, anykey__, Azelphur, baggy, Beirdo, benc_, BLZbubba, brfransen, CaCtus491, caelor_, Captain_Murdoch, Cardoe, ChanServ, CiaranG, clever, comingatyoubro, Cougar, d0netsFN, damaltor, darkstarbyte, Dave123, Dave123-road, dekarl, dijonyummy, dmz, dougl, dth_, duke42, ertyu-m, EvilGuru, felipe`, FinnTux, Floppe, foobum, frontrange, G, gergnz_, gholmlund, ghoti, gigem, gpd_, gregL, GreyFoxx, grumpydevil, Guierrmo, Heliwr, hipitihop, Hoochster, Hydr0p0nX, ikevin, infojunky_, IReboot, J-e-f-f-A, jams, jarle, jbrett, jduggan, jll, jm|laptop, joki, jpabq, jstenback, justdave, justinh, k-man, kabtoffe, KaZeR, keith4, kenni, Kevin`, knightr, kormoc, KungFuJesus, kurre2, kwmonroe`, linuxtech, lis0r, lotia, lucas^, mag0o_, mase_wk, Metoer, MissionCritical, monkeypet, Moscherkobold, Muzer, MythLogBot, mzb, N0BOX, neufeld_AFK, NightMonkey, nutron, Oleg_, paras, Peitolm, Pepsii, petefunk, peterpops, pgf, pheld, pigeon, purserj, pyther, quicksilver, RagingComputer, RagingMind, rhpot1991, rsiebert_, saintd3v, scopeuk, seld, ServerSage, Shadow__X, Sharky112065, sheppard, sid3windr, SIFTU, simcop2387, skd5aner, Slasher`, slickrick, SmallR2002, sphery, squidly, squidly_work, sraue, StevenR, sulx, sutula, tank-man, Technophil, teo-en-ming, tgm4883, tlhiv_laptop, toeb, toorima, tris, troyt, trumee, Twiggy2cents, ubIx, wahrhaft, wolfgang, XDS2010, zoktar, zombor, zombor_, [mrx], _abbenormal, _charly_
Wednesday, October 17th, 2012, 00:24 UTC
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[03:06:18] monkeypet: 2012-10–16 20:05:53.787232 I Downloading DataDirect feed
[03:06:18] monkeypet: 2012-10–16 20:06:04.791310 E DataDirect: Failed to get data: Download error
[03:06:18] monkeypet: 2012-10–16 20:06:04.791322 E DDLS: fillSelections did not successfully load selections
[03:06:28] monkeypet: i started to get those errors.
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[03:28:13] ertyu-m: anyone know what "signal quality" is technically measuring on an hdhomerun?
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[03:35:11] [R]: probably something in relation to SNR
[03:36:30] ertyu-m: that would be my guess as well
[03:36:51] ertyu-m: trying to optimize antenna, sometimes strong signal equates to lower quality
[03:36:57] ertyu-m: so I'm guessing noise at that point
[03:39:39] ertyu-m: I've tried several antennas at this point and most aren't doing much better than the the split coax dipole I have sitting on an old satellite dish, thats just sad
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[03:40:53] [R]: did you use antennaweb.org?
[03:41:16] ertyu-m: tvfool
[03:41:38] ertyu-m: although it really doesn't matter as I have a limited field of view
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[05:38:10] codenomics: hello
[05:39:36] codenomics: So I am experimenting with media centers and mythtv is next on my list. Been using XBMC for a few weeks now, but want to make sure I try all I can before settling
[05:41:59] codenomics: any recomendations for a newb?
[05:42:27] [R]: sure
[05:42:29] [R]: read the documentation
[05:43:13] codenomics: seems to be your canned answer
[05:43:14] codenomics: lol
[05:43:41] [R]: ask a stupid question
[05:43:42] [R]: get a stupid answer
[05:43:45] codenomics: I will end up reading definately and asking a bunch of questions
[05:44:10] codenomics: that seems to be your canned response to the response to what seems to be your canned answer
[05:44:19] codenomics: :)
[05:44:45] codenomics: oop seems that I need to logout and back in to run this
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[06:28:19] N0BOX: other than choosing the checkbox to transcode a recording automatically in the recording rule for a show, and the quality of the transcode, what else do you have to do to get your shows to automatically transcode?
[06:28:28] N0BOX: I've set all my shows to be transcoded, but nothing is being transcoded
[06:28:53] wagnerrp: that should be it, they should show up in the jobqueue
[06:29:20] wagnerrp: note, if you actually transcode using the internal transcoder, you will end up with nuppelvideo files, which your tablet will almost certainly not be able to handle
[06:29:38] wagnerrp: more people only use the internal transcoder for lossless mpeg2 -> mpeg2 commercial clipping
[06:31:22] N0BOX: hrmm
[06:31:56] wagnerrp: have you looked at the HLS interface for live transcoding and streaming to your tablet?
[06:32:32] N0BOX: well, using an app called MythTV Go, I can start a recording from the backend, and it will ask me to choose Low, Med, or High Quality, and then I can watch the recording
[06:32:40] wagnerrp: otherwise, you're going to want to define some external userjob to perform your transcodes
[06:32:59] N0BOX: I can only assume that the backend is doing a live transcode for my tablet
[06:33:30] wagnerrp: only if mythtv go uses the HLS interface
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[06:33:38] wagnerrp: i don't know if that's the case
[06:33:38] N0BOX: it does
[06:33:45] wagnerrp: HLS is a rather new addition, 0.25+
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[06:33:56] N0BOX: yeah, I am using .25
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[06:36:19] N0BOX: so those transcode profiles have nothing to do with the ones in the regular linux mythfrontend setup for transcoding?
[06:36:43] wagnerrp: HLS is independent from the jobqueue, yes
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[06:36:54] N0BOX: I tried to force mythbrake to work, and it is just finding new ways to fail
[06:37:30] N0BOX: I had to rewrite the whole v3 of that script to even get it to run
[06:38:47] N0BOX: is there a decent userjob that can do a quick and dirty transcode to h.264/x264/XviD available that I won't have to rewrite to make work?
[06:39:14] N0BOX: and that can get close to 30fps?
[06:39:23] wagnerrp: what is your CPU?
[06:40:27] wagnerrp: if MythTV Go is using HLS, it doesn't matter what format your content exists on disk, as it will always transcode it
[06:40:33] N0BOX: i7–3930K, mythtv is running in a vmware vm with VT-x and VT-x w/EPT enabled that has been given 8GB of memory and 4 vCPUs
[06:40:50] wagnerrp: ugh... why use a VM?
[06:41:02] ** Captain_Murdoch knew that was coming. **
[06:41:05] Captain_Murdoch: :)
[06:41:10] wagnerrp: it's nothing but hassles when trying to access tuner hardware
[06:41:32] wagnerrp: and unless you're trying to separately run linux and windows on the same physical machine, there's really no point to it for home use
[06:41:33] N0BOX: well, I want to have the backend pre-transcode the files so that I don't have to stream them in realtime because I can't skip through the commercials
[06:41:56] N0BOX: commskip doesn't work properly for SD shows, otherwise I would just use it
[06:42:08] Captain_Murdoch: N0BOX, I don't know if MythTV Go will use pre-transcoded HLS streams, but if it will, you can setup a user job to fire them off for you.
[06:42:14] N0BOX: my machine is running win7 as a host
[06:42:20] wagnerrp: if you just want to remove the commercials, set the internal transcode to operate losslessly, and let HLS handle the rest
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[06:42:54] N0BOX: I end up losing half the show with commskip :/
[06:43:10] wagnerrp: mythtv does not use commskip
[06:43:24] N0BOX: and if the files are transcoded already, I can just grab them via samba or sftp
[06:43:41] wagnerrp: for that matter, the transcoder does not use any commercial skipping mechanism
[06:43:56] wagnerrp: it relies on you to go into edit mode and generate a cutlist
[06:44:15] wagnerrp: specifically because commercial detection mechanisms cannot be expected to be 100% accurate
[06:44:25] N0BOX: I'm sorry, I've confused things for you all
[06:44:41] wagnerrp: in mythfrontend, you play a recording and hit 'e' to get into edit mode
[06:44:42] N0BOX: I just mean that I don't want to have to sit through the commercials in a live stream
[06:45:00] wagnerrp: Captain_Murdoch: does HLS even do live tv yet?
[06:45:23] Captain_Murdoch: wagnerrp, no, not yet, but that will be much easier once I get the on-demand stuff working.
[06:45:26] N0BOX: if the files have been transcoded to a format the tablet can play natively, I can manually FF through the commercials
[06:46:18] Captain_Murdoch: although that brings different issues as well regarding LiveTV.
[06:47:42] wagnerrp: N0BOX: there are several userjob scripts on the wiki and floating around the mailing list to do that
[06:47:51] ** Captain_Murdoch isn't sure what's complicated about the handbrake command line that makes that hard to use anyway. **
[06:47:53] wagnerrp: although i haven't been paying close attention to them
[06:48:17] wagnerrp: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Category:User_Job_Scripts
[06:50:42] wagnerrp: Captain_Murdoch: did the user on #11176 just say they opened up access to mysql on his router?
[06:50:42] ** MythLogBot http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/11176 **
[06:51:34] N0BOX: handbrakecli is complicated for people who have no experience with video encoding
[06:52:23] N0BOX: it's not so much the syntax as just knowing what the heck all the terms mean
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[06:53:00] wagnerrp: it should be easy to find profiles online that will produce output compatible with your tablet
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[07:50:37] gnarface: so i have a PVR-250 and "v4l2-ctl --get-fmt-video" says its interlaced... how do i change it to progressive (the source claims its outputting 480p i basically just want the pvr-250 to stop converting it to interlaced)
[07:51:09] wagnerrp: the PVR-250 doesnt convert anything, the source is 480i
[07:51:32] wagnerrp: what source is telling you it is progressive?
[07:52:14] gnarface: wagnerrp: v4l2-ctl, like i said. ivtvctl just gives me an error, and modinfo also says that interlaced is the default but when i set it to auto it doesn't seem to change behavior
[07:52:30] gnarface: wagnerrp: ivtv 0.10 if it matters
[07:52:41] wagnerrp: you just said v4l2ctl was saying it was interlaced
[07:53:45] wagnerrp: the PVR-250, as well as the composite and s-video interfaces it supports, are only capable of interlaced capture
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[07:54:02] wagnerrp: it is not possible to receive progressive content from a PVR-250
[07:54:20] gnarface: oh you mean what is telling me that the *source* is progressive, sorry misread that; the *source* has lights on the front that tell me
[07:54:54] wagnerrp: so your cable box claims it is progressive
[07:55:14] wagnerrp: that may very well be the case, but the standard definition analog outputs you are using are interlaced
[07:55:27] wagnerrp: if you want progressive, you must use component capture with an HDPVR
[07:56:08] gnarface: wagnerrp: according to the internets s-video standardly supports 480p
[07:56:51] wagnerrp: nope
[07:56:59] wagnerrp: svideo does standard NTSC video, which is 480i
[07:57:21] wagnerrp: or, 576i PAL
[08:01:13] gnarface: oh
[08:01:20] gnarface: bummer
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[11:42:05] homebrewcider: Hi all, can someone help me, my backend updated and stalled halfway through, since then my frontend won't login to the backend
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[14:10:05] teo-en-ming: hi
[14:10:08] teo-en-ming: anybody here?
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[14:11:34] teo-en-ming: can somebody help me>?
[14:13:10] devinheitmueller: justinh: fyi, tvtime does *not* support digital TV tuners.
[14:13:15] devinheitmueller: (only raw framegrabbers)
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[14:19:57] teo-en-ming: hi devinheitmueller
[14:20:15] devinheitmueller: teo-en-ming: hello
[14:20:23] teo-en-ming: can you help me?
[14:20:42] devinheitmueller: There are many people here. If you have a question you should just ask it, and if someone knows the answer they will speak up.
[14:20:48] teo-en-ming: mythtv-setup reports "Failed to find any channels"
[14:21:14] teo-en-ming: i am using Ubuntu 12.04
[14:21:32] teo-en-ming: Previously, when i was using Ubuntu 11.10, i don't have this problem
[14:21:38] devinheitmueller: Analog tuner? Digital tuner? What country are you in? What channels are you trying to scan?
[14:22:04] teo-en-ming: i am using Hauppage WinTV PVR USB2
[14:22:08] teo-en-ming: i am in Singapore
[14:22:26] devinheitmueller: Are you scanning for DVB-T? Or analog?
[14:22:29] teo-en-ming: while scanning for channels: it says "scanning singapore channel 1 locked"
[14:22:46] teo-en-ming: i am not sure whether it is digital or analog
[14:22:53] teo-en-ming: but i am using Cable TV
[14:23:27] devinheitmueller: Probably analog then. The PVR USB2 doesn't support DVB-C.
[14:23:55] teo-en-ming: how should i fix the problem?
[14:24:17] devinheitmueller: The analog channel scanner in Myth might be broken again (it has been numerous times in the past).
[14:24:21] teo-en-ming: i think Ubuntu 12.04 broke something, that's why mythtv-setup can't find any channels
[14:24:24] devinheitmueller: Somebody else might be able to offer some insight.
[14:24:55] teo-en-ming: in Ubuntu 11.10 there were no problems
[14:25:14] devinheitmueller: Yeah, the MythTV devs seems to break analog channel scanning every few releases.  ;-)
[14:26:31] teo-en-ming: i was using mythtv 0.25+fixes, failed to find any channels
[14:26:53] teo-en-ming: then i compiled and install mythtv 0.26 from sources, still the same, Failed to find any channels
[14:27:03] teo-en-ming: could 0.25 and 0.26 be broken?
[14:27:20] devinheitmueller: Many of the developers are in the United States, and since they use SchedulesDirect they have no need for analog channel scanning. Hence it is often broken and none of the developers care.
[14:29:11] teo-en-ming: so you mean mythtv 0.25.2+fixes and 0.26 could be broken?
[14:29:16] teo-en-ming: as in channel scanning
[14:31:01] teo-en-ming: i am not sure what mythtv version was used in Ubuntu 11.10, probably 0.24
[14:31:16] teo-en-ming: should i roll back to ubuntu 11.10?
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[14:39:15] sphery: teo-en-ming: you can always add the channels manually or if you did a backup of your database before you upgraded, just restore the full backup and let MythTV upgrade it
[14:40:43] teo-en-ming: how can i add channels manually? There seems to be no option for setting the channel frequency in the Channel Editor
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[14:42:11] sphery: 2nd screen of the channel editor
[14:42:31] sphery: also, there's a full scan option that tries every frequency that you can try'
[14:43:18] sphery: don't know if it would help, but it's probably worth a try
[14:43:49] sphery: also, when you say it says something about channel 1 locked, that sounds like it found that channel
[14:43:54] sphery: are you sure it's not finding anything?
[14:44:03] sphery: have you actually waited until the scan completes?
[14:49:25] teo-en-ming: the scan took only about 1–2 secs. i am sure it did not find any channel.
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[14:49:45] teo-en-ming: but devinheitmueller says channel scanning is broken
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[14:52:44] teo-en-ming: 0.26 upgraded the database schema, now when i reverted back to 0.25, mythtv-setup reports it and produces an error, how can i downgrade the database schema?
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[15:15:07] tgm4883: teo-en-ming, restore from backup
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[15:27:19] teo-en-ming: tgm4883: i have restored from backup
[15:27:46] teo-en-ming: how do i specify the channel frequency in Channel Editor, in Hz, kHz, or MHz?
[15:32:07] sphery: teo-en-ming: the pre-upgrade (0.25) backup
[15:32:10] sphery: and kHz
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[16:20:41] louisdk: What's the difference between radio frequency and bluetooth keyboard? Pros/cons?
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[16:27:48] stuartm: louisdk: bluetooth keyboards tend to drain the battery much, much faster
[16:28:37] stuartm: I'd go proprietary RF e.g. the current gen Logitech keyboards which offer 2+ years from a single set of batteries
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[16:29:27] stuartm: I've heard from people with bluetooth keyboards that they were replacing/charging batteries every 2–4 weeks
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[16:32:20] stuartm: different models/makes might achieve better, but as a rule Bluetooth just seems go through batteries that much faster, maybe because it's not optimised for the job e.g. it polls more often than it needs to or the standard mandates a higher power transmission
[16:34:10] wagnerrp: those proprietary RF keyboards also don't have anything like the range of bluetooth
[16:34:42] wagnerrp: i get maybe a year out of mine, but i have trouble if i move my keyboard more than a foot from the center of my desk
[16:35:01] stuartm: wagnerrp: the range is more than enough, just to prove the point I can go two rooms down the hall (solid brick walls) ~ 20ft and it still works
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[16:35:41] wagnerrp: could be im just using old hardware
[16:36:34] wagnerrp: i would sporadically end up typing on computers on the opposite side of the house, but i can't seem to manage being more than a couple feet from my own base
[16:36:54] wagnerrp: right now, i've got the base velcro'd to the bottom of my desk, a couple inches from the keyboard
[16:36:59] stuartm: newer gen stuff is pretty impressive IMHO, I upgraded my old wireless keyboard for this Logitech around 3 months ago, the RF receiver is one of the nano jobs but the reception is great
[16:39:47] stuartm: the logitech ones also include AES encryption by default, used to be that they required a windows only app to enable that and even further back they used no or very weak encryption
[16:40:05] wagnerrp: yeah, mine has no encryption
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[16:42:45] stuartm: I am typing this from outside the house, maybe 40 ft from the reciever (blind), a few solid walls in between
[16:43:11] stuartm: wow, didn't expect that to work ...
[16:43:14] stuartm: heh
[16:44:28] stuartm: more impressive though is that I managed to do it without typos (just a sp error in receiver)
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[16:46:21] stuartm: with all the wifi networks around here operating in the same 2.4Ghz space, that's surprised even me and I've had this thing for weeks already
[16:47:09] wagnerrp: silly, no one actually knows how to change their network from the default channel cooked into the firmware
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[16:49:34] stuartm: these days most wireless APs aren't even setup or admined by the home owner, the ISP supply and set up combined modem/ap/routers
[16:50:31] stuartm: and few have the] smart auto-selection of the least crowded channel stuff
[16:52:32] stuartm: I had hoped that when I switched to 802.11n I'd be able to escape the clutter and switch to 5Ghz but unfortunately that barely penetrates into the next room, let alone the other side of the house :(
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[17:51:12] wagnerrp: stuartm: old stucco house?
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[18:16:04] wizbit: could my tv card be creating these kernel messages: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=atDxRH8D
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[18:19:10] devinheitmueller: wizbit: those are almost certainly coming from your tuner card.
[18:19:26] devinheitmueller: "vb2_vmalloc" is for videobuf2 (which is a component of video4linux)
[18:19:37] wizbit: ohhhhhh
[18:19:39] devinheitmueller: Looks like your logging is screwed up.
[18:19:49] wizbit: thanks!
[18:19:54] devinheitmueller: Did you set any modprobe options for the videobuf or videodev modules?
[18:19:56] wizbit: im using a Nova-T 500 dual tuner DVB-T
[18:20:06] devinheitmueller: Reall?
[18:20:08] devinheitmueller: Really?
[18:20:09] wizbit: i do have some options set for that card
[18:20:10] wizbit: let me check
[18:20:18] devinheitmueller: I don't think the Nova-T 500 uses videobuf.
[18:20:22] devinheitmueller: Do you have a webcam installed?
[18:20:41] wizbit: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=R4v2Wbut
[18:20:49] wizbit: yes there is a webcam on the server as well
[18:20:56] devinheitmueller: Probably the webcam.
[18:21:04] wizbit: its a logitech pro 4000 i use it with zoneminder
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[18:21:19] wizbit: i will remove it the webcam and see if the messages go
[18:21:50] wizbit: google throws up some results now :)
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[18:51:03] stuartm: wagnerrp: old brick house, solid brick and plaster walls throughout
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[18:52:34] stuartm: well could be stucco rather than plaster, it's friable enough
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[18:59:38] wagnerrp: we've got stucco walls... wireless doesn't travel well through a makeshift faraday cage
[19:00:06] wagnerrp: i've ended up placing an AP at opposite sides of the house on different channels to ensure good signal
[19:00:54] wagnerrp: sphery: going through old logs? you're dredging up threads from june
[19:01:03] wagnerrp: or is that july
[19:01:09] lotia-away is now known as lotia
[19:01:11] wagnerrp: yeah, i guess it's july
[19:02:39] wizbit: mythweb is showing these errors in log:
[19:02:40] wizbit: PHP Warnin
[19:02:41] wizbit: g: Unknown: function '0' not found or invalid function name in Unknown on line 0
[19:02:52] wizbit: i have updated both mythtv and mythweb to .26
[19:03:20] wizbit: could this be the first ever mythtv virus / trojan ?
[19:03:33] wagnerrp: no
[19:04:04] wagnerrp: mythtv is too rare of a target to bother tailoring a virus to it
[19:04:20] wizbit: that was my silly humour
[19:09:39] wizbit: wagnerrp: do you get those messages in your log?
[19:09:45] wizbit: are you running php 5.4 ?
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[19:16:41] wagnerrp: can't say ive noticed any trouble to make me think to check the logs
[19:29:32] whyzzyrd: evening, I've been running mythbackend with -vall for a few days, to see if I can see why my EPG for some channels keeps breaking.
[19:29:59] whyzzyrd: it's dutifully broken, and pre-restarting mythbackend, using femon, I confirmed that the card had lock
[19:30:45] whyzzyrd: post-restarting mythbackend, it's all pear-shaped until a reboot
[19:31:35] whyzzyrd: I've been getting PES and PSIP errors (while it's been working), and they all stop at a certain point in the log.
[19:32:06] whyzzyrd: In order that I don't put a whole load of irrelevance in pastebin, which bits are interesting in working this out?
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[19:42:34] wagnerrp: pear-shaped?
[19:43:13] whyzzyrd: broken
[19:44:06] whyzzyrd: I just rebooted, and the whole lot works again
[19:44:31] ** wizbit cleans and re-formats recordings hd xfs format **
[19:44:39] wizbit: nice docs http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/XFS_Filesystem
[19:45:24] wizbit: wagnerrp: i like my logs to be clean, dirty logs are not nice
[19:46:42] whyzzyrd: I'm wondering how I can narrow it down to hardware or software
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[20:06:28] slickrick: hi. whats a good way to adjust hte gamma correction for mythfrontend? i tried using nvidia-settings but it doesn't seem to affect mythfrontend. when i change the setting i can see the difference in the nvidia-settings window but the video output of mythfrontend remains unaffected.
[20:06:53] slickrick: i am finding a samsung tv i use for a frontend to be really dark. it has brightness controls but this washes out the image.
[20:07:55] whyzzyrd: slickrick, you running 26?
[20:08:15] slickrick: no, 0.25
[20:09:54] whyzzyrd: I had wacky gamma when I upgraded to 0.25 from 0.24, but it got fixed pretty rapidly in fixed IIRC
[20:10:02] whyzzyrd: fixes even
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[20:11:14] whyzzyrd: I suspect it'd be worth upgrading to 0.25.1 if you can easily.
[20:11:21] slickrick: i was really tempted to run 0.26, but when i was adding the mythbuntu repos the warning about 0.26 being a development release seemed pretty dire.
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[20:11:41] whyzzyrd: I'm running mythbuntu's fixes
[20:11:46] slickrick: 0.25.1? i didn't realize thee was such a thing.
[20:12:02] wagnerrp: i think we've even got a 0.25.3
[20:12:06] squidly_work: whyzzyrd: was it pretty easy to upgrade from the 11.10 to 12.04?
[20:12:20] tgm4883: slickrick, did you refresh?
[20:12:43] slickrick: tgm4883: not sure what you mean?
[20:12:50] whyzzyrd: squidly_work, yeah, but I've got diskless frontends, which were more fun
[20:12:57] tgm4883: in the MCC, there is a refresh button on the repos tab
[20:13:08] squidly_work: lol
[20:13:09] whyzzyrd: and one of the diskless frontends is also a slave backend..
[20:13:13] slickrick: ah. yes, pretty sure i did.
[20:13:20] slickrick: will check again tho.
[20:13:27] squidly_work: I've not botherd with teh diskless frontends as of yet. Once the drive dies I will go diskless
[20:13:37] whyzzyrd: silence improves the WAF
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[20:14:03] slickrick: was just about to say the same thing about silence too.... all my frontends are diskless. its worth the extra effort.
[20:14:05] squidly_work: lol
[20:14:30] squidly_work: my frontend is 90% silent and I dont hear anything from it
[20:14:37] squidly_work: also my guests say the same thing.
[20:14:41] whyzzyrd: I've got EPG problems causing WAF failure at the moment, and I'm trying to work out whether it's hardware or software
[20:14:53] whyzzyrd: squidly_work, if it don't bother you, it don't matter
[20:15:13] squidly_work: whyzzyrd: yep. Just saying some fans can be done very quietly
[20:15:18] whyzzyrd: they can indeed
[20:15:44] whyzzyrd: my P690 at work is pretty quiet
[20:15:54] whyzzyrd: and it's getting long in the tooth
[20:16:05] slickrick: tgm4883: the output of dpkg shows 0.25.2+fixes on my system ... so i guess i'm fairly up to date.
[20:16:09] squidly_work: My dell t3500 is quite until I start a couple of builds at once.
[20:16:29] tgm4883: slickrick, I was specifically talking about the 0.26 warning you got
[20:16:43] slickrick: tgm4883: oh, ok.
[20:16:45] whyzzyrd: mine does spool up if I load the CPUs or GPUs
[20:16:53] tgm4883: if you hit refresh in MCC, it should pull down info about 0.26 being released and not show the warning anymore
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[20:17:07] squidly_work: lol whyzzyrd. I dont spool up my GPU that much
[20:17:18] whyzzyrd: I've a pair in it
[20:17:40] squidly_work: I only have one.. but it does drive my dual 30" very nice.
[20:17:53] whyzzyrd: heh, I've 3x24 on mine
[20:18:14] whyzzyrd: I've got very used to having one infront and one either side
[20:18:18] squidly_work: heh. At home I got dual 23". I cant live with only a single monitory any more
[20:18:53] wagnerrp: i know the feeling, im using three currently
[20:18:55] whyzzyrd: started moons ago with Sony GDM90W10's on 3d labs oxygen card in a dual PIII-550
[20:19:01] slickrick: whyzzyrd: thats a great setup, i have something similar 3x21. crazy amounts of desktop space.
[20:19:13] whyzzyrd: GDM90W10's were a beast of a screen
[20:19:31] squidly_work: lol
[20:20:44] whyzzyrd: Our health and safety person caught me carrying one up the stairs on my own. I got in a lot of trouble.
[20:21:48] squidly_work: heh.. I wish I had someone here to yell at me. I've had to sling some nice heavey servers around my office at times..
[20:21:59] whyzzyrd: some madman has one on ebay for $400
[20:22:03] squidly_work: and 6U file servers are BLASTED heaay!
[20:22:06] squidly_work: haha
[20:22:16] wagnerrp: even heavier when filled
[20:22:30] whyzzyrd: aye, make your job easier, fill the disks with nulls
[20:22:40] wagnerrp: ive got one sitting vertically on wheels on my basement floor
[20:22:51] wagnerrp: double-wide pedestal chassis
[20:23:02] whyzzyrd: had to rack a Sun/Oracle T4–4 last week
[20:23:14] whyzzyrd: Their rack kit is thoroughly unconvincing
[20:23:15] squidly_work: wagnerrp: these were fully filled. Each one has 48 disks..
[20:23:24] wagnerrp: only 14 drives here
[20:23:25] squidly_work: lol
[20:23:44] wagnerrp: 12 in 3-in-2 hotswap bays, another two internal
[20:23:45] squidly_work: wagnerrp: not bad.. still heavy..
[20:23:55] squidly_work: these are 48 hot-swap bays
[20:23:58] wagnerrp: yeah, still probably 60–80lbs
[20:24:02] squidly_work: and POS bays as well.
[20:24:19] whyzzyrd: we tend to use 2U's and MD1120's nowadays
[20:24:46] squidly_work: we are moving to the r720ex for the largers File servers now.
[20:25:01] squidly_work: though I'm trying to get them to let me do some work with iSCSI
[20:25:03] wagnerrp: im surprised the thumper/blazebox design hasn't become more common
[20:25:10] wizbit: upgrading to 14 was a mission, just about every application broke (not slackwares fault, just a lot of changes to apps functions)
[20:25:24] whyzzyrd: thumpers are shit, that's why.
[20:25:36] wagnerrp: how so?
[20:25:56] whyzzyrd: we've got one, and the guy who uses it for his research storage says it's slow
[20:26:09] wagnerrp: how much memory? any L2ARC?
[20:26:10] whyzzyrd: it's also a pita to rack
[20:26:17] whyzzyrd: nfi
[20:26:39] whyzzyrd: it also apparently needs a fair bit of babysitting with software patches etc
[20:26:46] wagnerrp: ZFS sucks down memory, every bit you're willing to give it
[20:26:56] whyzzyrd: I suspect it's under-resourced
[20:27:16] wagnerrp: and the "L2ARC" is a chunk of non-volatile flash, used as the battery-backed storage on a hardware RAID card
[20:27:20] tgm4883: yea you've got to feed it a bunch of ram
[20:27:20] whyzzyrd: it also isn't trivial to replicate between 2 sites as far as I understand
[20:27:41] whyzzyrd: people that want to store that much data seem to be doing san now
[20:27:41] tgm4883: we've moved to nexenta on our x4200
[20:28:18] stuartm: tgm4883: are the latest -fixes packages not labelled 0.25.3+fixes instead of 0.25.2+fixes?
[20:28:19] wagnerrp: zfs send <partition> | ssh <remote> -c zfs receive <partition>
[20:28:23] wagnerrp: painfully simple
[20:28:39] wagnerrp: replace partitions with incremental snapshots for maintenance
[20:29:05] tgm4883: stuartm, yea they are just 0.25.2 it seems
[20:29:19] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, I presume the chap that has it can't work it then
[20:29:32] tgm4883: stuartm, honestly, I'd prefer it just be 0.25
[20:29:41] whyzzyrd: and that his opinion of it is coloured
[20:29:42] squidly_work: nice wagnerrp
[20:30:28] wagnerrp: there are some tricks needed, like it's beneficial to include some form of memory buffer on both ends to keep data flowing regardless of latency
[20:30:34] whyzzyrd: We've a lot of sun stuff, and apart from coolthreads being none so cool for our workloads, it's relatively solid. We've more and more debian now.
[20:30:42] squidly_work: wagnerrp: to bad zfs is not native under linux yet.
[20:30:49] wagnerrp: and im not sure if that's the exact syntax for ssh, not to mention 'zfs receive' needs to be run as root
[20:31:02] wagnerrp: and then there's the whole issue of Sun stuff being more or less abandoned
[20:31:05] squidly_work: wagnerrp: actually that looks just about correct
[20:31:07] whyzzyrd: squidly_work, isn't it on $bsd?
[20:31:17] wagnerrp: i use it on freebsd currently
[20:31:20] squidly_work: whyzzyrd: yes it's on BSD.. but not on linux
[20:31:26] squidly_work: I use all linux at work..
[20:31:26] wagnerrp: it's been natively included since 7.x i believe
[20:32:01] stuartm: tgm4883: if users would stop reporting the package version instead of the code/application version then you could call it anything, but they will insist on citing the package version string when we ask what they are running :(
[20:32:33] tgm4883: stuartm, well technically the package version string is 2:0.25.2+fixes.20121002.139bd59–0ubuntu0mythbuntu4
[20:32:44] tgm4883: that is what it should say, and what is reported when you look at the package
[20:32:57] whyzzyrd: does that 139db59 correspond to the git point?
[20:33:00] stuartm: now 0.25.3+fixes is still not helpful as a version string, but it's better than 0.25+fixes etc because it at least gives us some idea how old it might be
[20:33:26] tgm4883: stuartm, they aren't giving you the full version string
[20:34:29] tgm4883: whyzzyrd, yes I believe that is the git revision
[20:34:54] devinheitmueller: wagnerrp: the Colossus has a high speed HD transcoder which can convert MPEG2 to H.264. Do you think anybody would actually buy boards for that functionality? Or are people generally satisfied just doing transcoding using the host CPU?
[20:34:54] stuartm: even that full version is sadly not as useful as we get from non-packaged builds, not your fault really, I blame git
[20:35:31] wagnerrp: it all comes down to cost
[20:36:01] wagnerrp: if you transcode, you gain effective storage in exchange for electricity consumption
[20:36:19] whyzzyrd: devinheitmueller, the other issue is where to put the card
[20:36:20] wagnerrp: which with CPU encoding and x264 at high quality, tends to be a wash
[20:36:23] tgm4883: stuartm, what would be a good version string then?
[20:36:44] tgm4883: stuartm, what do you get from non-packaged builds?
[20:36:49] devinheitmueller: wagnerrp: I was thinking less about storage cost and more about the ability to transcode for rendering to other devices that don't support anything other than H.264.
[20:36:54] stuartm: git just doesn't produce easy to recognise version strings, at least with SVN you could instantly say 1234 came after 1233 and before 1235, and since we're now on 2468 it's really, really old – with git you've got to mess about looking up the checksums in the logs
[20:36:56] wagnerrp: with a discrete transcoder, it's not going to be as compressively efficient as x264, but it's going to run at much lower power than a CPU
[20:37:11] wagnerrp: so the question is how much do you need to transcode before it's worth the purchase cost
[20:37:18] wagnerrp: versus the cost of more storage
[20:37:27] whyzzyrd: could you power it off USB2 or 3 port and have a warm dongle :)
[20:37:36] wagnerrp: it's a PCIe card
[20:37:43] wagnerrp: and one currently not supported in linux
[20:38:06] whyzzyrd: ahh, none of my myth boxes have pcie even
[20:38:12] devinheitmueller: wagnerrp: for most hardware encoders, they can definitely match x264 in terms of quality (the encoding just takes longer). And for many applications, it can outperform x264 by a wide margin in terms of encoding time.
[20:38:49] wagnerrp: devinheitmueller: they can produce the same quality output, but can they produce the same quality at similar file size?
[20:39:19] stuartm: tgm4883: we use "git describe" so we get the number of commits since the last tag, and whether there are patches applied etc e.g. "v0.27-pre-66-gaf9d367" – that's 66 commits after the 0.27 tag, so I can say at a glance that a user reporting "v0.27-pre-57" is 9 commits behind the current version
[20:39:27] wagnerrp: i thought that was one of the advantages of software encoders, they had more memory available to spend on exhaustive motion estimate refinement
[20:39:40] devinheitmueller: wagnerrp: most of the modern hardware encoders have the same level of flexibility to adjust bitrate, quantization factors, etc.
[20:40:01] devinheitmueller: wagnerrp: most of those assertions are bs. They might have been true ten years ago.
[20:40:07] wagnerrp: of course if you're talking real-time transcoding for streaming to mobile devices, a hardware encoder would be a huge benefit
[20:40:31] wagnerrp: something to build into the HLS capability
[20:40:42] tgm4883: stuartm, not sure I understand how ""v0.27-pre-57" is 9 commits behind the current version"
[20:40:50] devinheitmueller: wagnerrp: the hardware encoders can typically far exceed "real time". For the example, the Colossus could probably transcode HD to 640x480 for an iPod at something like 12x.
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[20:41:10] tgm4883: stuartm, unless by current version you mean latest commit?
[20:41:15] wagnerrp: would that allow for rapidly switching between multiple streams?
[20:41:25] stuartm: tgm4883: yes
[20:41:26] wagnerrp: such as two or three people simultaneously watching different programs?
[20:41:36] tgm4883: stuartm, there is no way I could put that into a packaged version
[20:41:38] wagnerrp: i would see that as a more useful capability
[20:41:52] devinheitmueller: wagnerrp: yes, encoders such as the Colossus can encode multiple streams in parallel.
[20:42:02] devinheitmueller: (no need for "rapid switching")
[20:42:11] stuartm: tgm4883: which at least from our perspective, _is_ the latest version on each branch, we just don't push out a new point release for each commit
[20:42:32] stuartm: tgm4883: I guess not or it would already be done that way
[20:42:34] wagnerrp: i would talk to Captain_Murdoch about that sort of thing
[20:42:41] tgm4883: stuartm, what does a 0.26 git describe show?
[20:43:07] wagnerrp: the last tag in that commit sequence, and the number of commits since that tag
[20:43:20] wagnerrp: it outputs that "v0.27-pre-57" string
[20:43:22] stuartm: tgm4883: current 0.26-fixes branch shows v0.26.0-16-gbff8eb1
[20:43:57] tgm4883: stuartm, ok, so when 0.26.1 gets released, that -16- gets reset to 0?
[20:43:59] stuartm: so there have been 16 commits to the -fixes branch, or 16 commits since 0.26 was tag is a better way of looking at it
[20:44:25] stuartm: tgm4883: yes, it would be "v0.26.1-0-gbfsd5eb1"
[20:44:39] tgm4883: wagnerrp, stuartm so IDK all the mythtv devs, is it the general consensus that is a better way to represent the build version?
[20:45:12] wagnerrp: the tag and commit count is just a very quick and easy way to estimate how recent the version is
[20:45:27] wagnerrp: with the specific commit hash being useful to define the exact commit
[20:45:38] tgm4883: is there any benefit of having the git hash in there (eg. 139bd59 )
[20:45:43] tgm4883: ok
[20:45:57] wagnerrp: a date reference would be decent enough if that is preferred
[20:46:12] tgm4883: wagnerrp, that is what is in there now
[20:46:18] tgm4883: 2:0.25.3+fixes.20121002.139bd59–0ubuntu0mythbuntu4
[20:46:23] tgm4883: 20121002
[20:46:34] stuartm: tgm4883: generally yes, as wagnerrp says it allows a very quick calculation of whether a user needs to upgrade or whether they already have a version containing the fix without needing to resort to the git logs
[20:46:35] wagnerrp: basically, name your packages whatever you want, but it's nice to have that 'git describe' output when you run 'mythbackend --version'
[20:46:53] wagnerrp: the same thing prints as the first line at the top of the logs when you start any mythtv application
[20:48:13] stuartm: yeah, fwiw I'm not really bothered how you name the packages, but it would be really good to have --version show the same format for everyone, currently Ubuntu shows something like "MythTV Version : v0.25.3"
[20:48:29] tgm4883: stuartm, hmm
[20:48:32] whyzzyrd: stuartm, exactly that actually
[20:48:35] wagnerrp: which is fine if you're actually sitting right on the tag
[20:49:12] tgm4883: stuartm, so I've honestly never compiled mythtv outside of our packages, where does mythbackend pull that info from? Is it actually trying to pull a 'git describe'?
[20:49:21] wagnerrp: yes
[20:49:22] stuartm: whereas a version built from source shows "MythTV Version : v0.25.3-2-g84431ca"
[20:49:29] tgm4883: hmm
[20:49:34] wagnerrp: or lacking that, it can pull it from a config file in the tree
[20:49:52] stuartm: tgm4883: we execute "git describe" every time we build
[20:50:16] stuartm: with a fallback to reading "VERSION" if we're outside the git tree
[20:50:23] whyzzyrd: heh, now I've got a channel with just now/next epg, but I've a full epg in my real receiver..
[20:50:29] tgm4883: so we would just need to basically do 'git describe > configfile' when we build?
[20:50:36] wagnerrp: there is a 'version.sh' in the tree you can manually insert to provide that information
[20:50:49] stuartm: which is what's happening for Ubuntu since the build exports to a clean directory first
[20:51:04] wagnerrp: http://code.mythtv.org/cgit/mythtv/tree/mythtv/version.sh
[20:51:38] wagnerrp: looks like you can simply define $SOURCE_VERSION and $BRANCH in the environment
[20:53:09] stuartm: yeah, some thought did go into that
[20:54:03] wagnerrp: ill have to tweak the gentoo ebuilds, since they're rewriting that file with `sed`
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[20:55:17] tgm4883: hmm, looks like it will take a little work since we build source packages and upload to a build server, but I'll see if we can't fix that
[20:55:44] wagnerrp: can you not control the environment of the build process?
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[20:57:47] tgm4883: wagnerrp, we can the source build env, IDK if that carries over to the binary build env
[20:58:05] wagnerrp: im not sure what the difference is
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[20:58:55] sphery: wagnerrp: hehe, yeah, I got way behind on my lists
[20:59:12] tgm4883: so we take mythtv source checkout, and combine it with the debian/ packaging directory to make a source package. Upload that to launchpad build servers where the build and host the binaries that people install
[20:59:47] wagnerrp: if nothing else, you can always provide your own version of version.sh
[20:59:53] tgm4883: wagnerrp, yea
[21:00:07] tgm4883: I can't get to our source build server though, it and our website is down :/
[21:02:00] whyzzyrd: that's not so hot
[21:02:18] whyzzyrd: loadbalancer fail?
[21:02:45] tgm4883: whyzzyrd, IDK, I emailed they guy running it
[21:02:53] tgm4883: since he apparently doesn't want to be in our channel today
[21:03:35] whyzzyrd: he putting out the other fires then?
[21:03:39] tgm4883: possibly
[21:03:53] tgm4883: he works for canonical, so he's probably pretty busy this week anyway
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[21:35:57] rooter7: Anyone know how the keyboard is linked in to mythfrontend?
[21:36:29] rooter7: I've just replaced KDE with XFCE, and now suddenly my keyboard doesn't work. In Myth only.
[21:36:53] rooter7: Old PS2 keyboard in Debian Testing.
[21:37:34] justinh: myth uses qt to capture keypresses. it gets keypresses from X AFAIK
[21:37:55] rooter7: O. I may have deinstalled QT.
[21:38:15] rooter7: Which module of QT?
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[21:41:02] justinh: I doubt it somehow. myth would almost certainly be removed with it
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[21:41:20] justinh: or if you compiled mythtv yourself, mythtv certainly wouldn't even load without qt I'd bet
[21:41:46] rooter7: I'm compiling Myth, so it's entirely possible.
[21:42:05] rooter7: It loads fine, but no response from the keyboard.
[21:42:44] rooter7: Mouse cursor works fine, and I can go through the Myth menus, but of course I can't stop a video or fast-forward, etc with a mouse.
[21:42:59] justinh: weird city
[21:44:11] rooter7: Any idea of the keyboard mechanism?
[21:45:10] justinh: I doubt you're missing any of qt if the mouse & other aspects are working
[21:45:29] justinh: more likely to be a window related issue – the window not getting focus for example
[21:45:46] rooter7: Ya, and if I kill mythfrontend, the keyboard works fine on the underlying desktop.
[21:46:17] rooter7: I doubt it's focus because I can control Myth with the mouse.
[21:48:13] justinh: maybe your keybindings table is hosed
[21:48:46] rooter7: For Myth? Because keyboard works fine on desktop.
[21:49:08] rooter7: There's something wrong with Myth's handling of the keyboard.
[21:49:10] justinh: the mythconverg database keybindings table. which myth uses to lookup keypresses against
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[21:49:58] justinh: I find it incredible you could have a library missing and succeed in building mythtv without keyboard support..
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[21:51:17] rooter7: Haven't built Myth lately, nor changed it.
[21:51:28] rooter7: Just removed KDE and all associated.
[21:51:45] rooter7: I've just run Mythfrontend through x2go, and it works OK.
[21:51:57] justinh: what's x2go?
[21:52:09] rooter7: Bring up the HTPC remote desktop and run Myth.
[21:52:21] rooter7: ... from another machine.
[21:52:56] sphery: it's focus issues
[21:53:31] justinh: oh x2go is like NX. Cool
[21:53:34] sphery: even if your keybindings table were broken, mythtv would use defaults
[21:53:38] justinh: I like freenx
[21:53:49] justinh: sphery: that's good to know.. I was kinda grasping ;-)
[21:54:06] rooter7: I'll try again. Gotta warm up the projector.
[21:54:11] justinh: figured it had to be focus. sounds like focus but the mouse working part.. was confusing
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[21:57:26] sphery: it's possible to be in a state where even clicking on the app window doesn't shift focus
[21:57:30] rooter7: Y'all seem to be right. I clicked it with the mouse then the keyboard worked. I'll crawl back under my rock now.
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[21:57:46] justinh: heh
[21:57:50] sphery: try the alt-tab (or your WM's/DE's equivalent) to switch to a different app, then to mythtv
[21:58:07] justinh: I just keep yelling til users listen sometimes :P
[21:58:08] sphery: ah, or maybe the mouse will transfer focus this time :)
[21:58:11] rooter7: K. In 4 years never had this problem.
[21:58:32] rooter7: Freaked out because this is my TV!
[21:58:35] justinh: in I dunno how many years I've never seen somebody ask about the keyboard not working here
[21:58:38] sphery: justinh: hehe, keybindings was a good guess if it wasn't focus
[21:59:02] sphery: (though it would require a purposefully mapped empty binding for each key to stop keyboard from working)
[21:59:35] sphery: yeah, usually it's lirc doesn't work, but keyboard does
[21:59:47] sphery: (and none of us like crawling into the mess that's lirc support :)
[21:59:51] rooter7: Sure wish I could make LIRC work, but not smart enough.
[21:59:58] ** justinh had a busy day today trying to sort out a customers MySQL database. all 7.5GB of it. 88.5 million rows in one of the tables. A bit big by our standards. Then tweaked my.cnf, hauled performance up from 150 queries/sec to 550 or so.. and then scratched my head as to why the hell there are so many queries going on. It shouldn't be even a tenth of that **
[22:01:23] justinh: this customer is my worst nightmare. he always calls/emails at 4.55pm, and if it's a Friday you just *know* you'll be manually joining bits of database back together with sticky tape
[22:01:59] rooter7: Graft him over to Postgres.
[22:02:03] justinh: I knew enough mysql to get by with mythtv before I took this on.. and now I feel like I know more than I ever want to know.. and it's only gonna get worse
[22:02:23] justinh: meh. the dev will have to rewrite a lot of stuff
[22:02:34] justinh: he's got enough on his plate as it is
[22:02:44] rooter7: With MySQL now owned by Oracle, when is Myth going to Postgres?
[22:03:12] rooter7: Or better, some object-oriented database?
[22:03:16] justinh: when you've submitted all those patches to the ticket entitled "convert mythtv to use postgres"
[22:03:21] justinh: :-P
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[22:03:40] rooter7: ... Or when Oracle brings down the hammer on us.
[22:03:47] sphery: and provided a good technical reason for the disturbance/issues the transition will cause :)
[22:03:49] tgm4883: rooter7, my understanding is it's going to embedded mysql
[22:03:53] tgm4883: not postgres
[22:04:10] rooter7: Prob also owned by Oracle.
[22:04:11] justinh: what does it matter how it does it, so long as it works well?
[22:04:12] sphery: yeah, embedded is the goal, embedded mysql should be the easiest approach for that
[22:04:23] justinh: don't care, personally
[22:04:47] rooter7: When Oracle closes down the (competitive) product?
[22:04:51] sphery: oracle owns Berkeley DB, but does that mean Sendmail should stop basing its DBs on it?
[22:05:02] rooter7: Yes.
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[22:05:05] justinh: I think the worst that will ever happen to mysql is that Oracle will drop it – but that'd hardly be the end of it
[22:05:06] sphery: (Oracle bought SleepyCat, so owns BDB)
[22:05:13] sphery: agreed
[22:05:32] sphery: Oracle is keeping mysql to pretend to be a good member of the open source community after the Sun merger
[22:05:35] rooter7: MySQL is inferior to OO anyway.
[22:05:51] sphery: when the focus is off Oracle after the Sun merger is long since past, Oracle will realize they can't monetize it and will drop it
[22:06:08] justinh: blah blah my database is better than your database blah blah blah. What is it with the fanatics? can't they just accept that some people choose things for their own reasons?
[22:06:12] rooter7: They already know this.
[22:06:37] rooter7: No, justinh, it's about monopolies.
[22:06:37] sphery: (though Oracle is trying hard with its "open core, paid features" approach to MySQL--and approach that was started by MySQL owners before Oracle bought them, btw)
[22:06:48] rooter7: You should know this...
[22:06:51] kormoc: oof
[22:06:57] sphery: monopolies aren't a problem
[22:07:06] kormoc: anyone who wants Myth to move to a nosql db has no clue about databases
[22:07:12] justinh: rooter7: other databases are available, true.. but... you try porting the big ugly scheduler query to anything else, I dare ya
[22:07:14] sphery: it's abusing a monopoly position to unfairly gain market share in a different market that's wrong
[22:07:28] sphery: kormoc: we must link that video...
[22:07:31] tgm4883: kormoc, can't we just stick everything in a flat file? ;P
[22:07:54] rooter7: sheppard: monopolists do that inherently.
[22:07:58] rooter7: er, sphery...
[22:08:10] kormoc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2F-DItXtZs
[22:08:17] justinh: course you can stick everything in a flat file, but borrow the algorithms to efficiently use that flat file from the best DB engines around :P
[22:08:25] sphery: kormoc: hehe, thanks... I knew you'd have the link
[22:08:31] justinh: oh wait.. that'd be reinventing the wheel
[22:08:34] rooter7: Object Oriented databases are a quantum leap more advanced.
[22:08:50] rooter7: ... but no one knows.
[22:08:54] sphery: rooter7: perhaps you want the Perl replacement for MythTV, which uses XML and no MySQL DB!
[22:08:57] justinh: but why do you think that has ANYTHING mythtv will benefit from?
[22:09:05] kormoc: Oracle has owned InnoDB for years and years, they had the power to stop mysql cold in enterprise usage forever and they didn't. Why? It's because it fills a really useful sector
[22:09:32] kormoc: And second, who cares if Oracle drops it. you have Drizzle and Maria ready to fill the void (and taking market share already)
[22:09:42] rooter7: ... and no one listens.
[22:09:56] justinh: rooter7: how would mythtv benefit from an OO database?
[22:10:13] rooter7: Far more efficient. Far faster. Far cleaner.
[22:10:15] tgm4883: justinh, but, but, Object Oriented
[22:10:16] justinh: you keep going on about how mysql sucks, basically.. but without offering any real reasons
[22:10:20] kormoc: Cause Zope ODB is a wonderful system...
[22:10:20] justinh: but but but but CLOUD
[22:10:22] justinh: CLOUD
[22:10:25] justinh: CLOUD!!!!!!
[22:10:42] rooter7: I don't want my data in no cloud.
[22:10:46] tgm4883: lets just put it on the Wifi
[22:10:58] justinh: same argument. something for the sake of having something
[22:11:07] kormoc: I really wonder if rooter7 is the carl I know in Seattle and is just trolling me
[22:11:12] tgm4883: wait, what if we ran the Object Oriented Database Virtualized in the Cloud?
[22:11:15] rooter7: Advancement for the sake of advancement?
[22:11:15] justinh: like the people who virtualise for no good reason. grrr
[22:11:45] rooter7: OO is 10 years ahead of us now.
[22:11:49] sphery: no good reason? they want to run more than one program at a time--and don't try to tell me that a single computer could do that!
[22:11:56] justinh: lol
[22:12:09] justinh: yeah, and it can like halve your electrickery bill!
[22:12:13] tgm4883: rooter7, you still haven't given any concrete examples
[22:12:20] justinh: and if you run linux in a VM you never have to administrate it
[22:12:22] justinh: EVER
[22:12:26] tgm4883: "<rooter7> Far more efficient. Far faster. Far cleaner." is not an example of anything
[22:12:28] sphery: yeah... inefficiency is the best way to cut your costs
[22:12:28] rooter7: Oh, you want me to teach you all about OO.
[22:12:39] kormoc: rooter7, no. We really don't.
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[22:12:45] justinh: well, we taught you about window focus :P
[22:12:46] tgm4883: rooter7, no, I think they just want you to back up your claims with SOMETHING
[22:12:56] sphery: rooter7: if OO databases are so much better, why is it that the world is still using RDBMS's
[22:13:14] tgm4883: sphery, because they are too busy virtualizing in the cloud?
[22:13:25] sphery: IME, OO databases are lacking the 40+ years of optimization that's gone into RDBMS implementations and RDMBS-using code
[22:13:26] rooter7: OK, I'll search for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_oriented_database
[22:13:29] justinh: I don't think anybody is going to be willing to be lectured on DB architectures from somebody who'd lost window focus & hadn't thought of trying to get it back
[22:13:44] justinh: but that's just me
[22:13:52] rooter7: OK criticism starts. I'm out.
[22:13:56] sphery: hehe
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[22:14:03] tgm4883: justinh, wait, it was a focus issue?
[22:14:03] kormoc: starts? it's been going for awhile now
[22:14:32] justinh: I'd just love to know what drives the zealotry, I really would. Insanity?
[22:15:05] sphery: tgm4883: yeah, just focus (which is what justinh said the first time and rooter said wasn't the case)
[22:15:10] tgm4883: lol
[22:15:28] sphery: took a second person saying, "it's really focus," to get him to actually consider the possibility
[22:15:30] justinh: yeah if it's not mysql vs other DBs, it's Qt vs Flash vs HTML5 vs whatever...
[22:15:45] justinh: or C++ vs perl. LOL
[22:15:56] sphery: why tie yourself to any of those
[22:16:01] sphery: I say go pure machine language
[22:16:04] tgm4883: xbox vs ps3?
[22:16:10] tgm4883: windows vs linux?
[22:16:14] sphery: with that, you only have 2 tokens to worry about 1 and 0
[22:16:15] tgm4883: sphery vs wagnerrp?
[22:16:22] sphery: hehe
[22:16:26] kormoc: sphery, which machine language? ARM? x86? ;)
[22:16:33] justinh: sphery: I'd love to see mere mortals tweak the BUSQ in assembler
[22:16:51] sphery: hehe, yeah
[22:17:00] sphery: kormoc: all of them
[22:17:08] tgm4883: justdave, tweaking it is probably easy. Tweaking it and having it work afterwards is probably the hard part
[22:17:11] justinh: Z80 FTW!
[22:17:14] tgm4883: err justinh
[22:17:18] justinh: tgm4883: LOL.
[22:17:18] sphery: after all, it's F/LOSS, so there's no budget constraints!
[22:18:31] sphery: anyway, we should really consider dropping x86 support, because Intel owns the x86 instruction set, and it's all about monopolies
[22:19:32] kormoc: Oracle bought innodb in 2005. If the were going to kill mysql, that was the time
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[22:33:37] whyzzyrd: ingres FTW
[22:38:53] whyzzyrd: dropping x86 support eh? Over to mips we all go!
[22:40:12] stuartm: sphery: another reason for embedding, fewer people telling us they'd rather use another dbms (or no db – it should be flat file!)
[22:40:50] stuartm: if people can't see it, they suddenly stop caring, because all that really matters ultimately is that it works
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[22:46:04] wagnerrp: it seems there's never any end to people telling us we're doing it wrong... and then leaving
[22:50:06] whyzzyrd: If I had to make a choice, I'd prefer postgres, but then, like everyone, it's because I've the most experience of it.
[22:50:41] whyzzyrd: If this was for work, we'd be asking why it didn't use oracle, because doesn't every medium/large enterprise have an oracle site license?
[22:51:00] kormoc: nah. A huge number of companies don't
[22:51:07] whyzzyrd: indeed
[22:51:16] whyzzyrd: I know that perfectly well
[22:51:39] SIFTU: whyzzyrd: do you use ingres?
[22:52:02] wagnerrp: whether postgre or mysql, the plan is to move to embedded... something
[22:52:14] whyzzyrd: We used to use ingres many many moons ago
[22:52:21] wagnerrp: one way or another, we want control over access to the database for easy recovery and setup
[22:52:22] SIFTU: lol yeah same
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[22:52:48] whyzzyrd: On a Sun Ultra2 with a fibre A1000 IIRC (pre fibrechannel).
[22:52:50] ertyu-m: sqlite?
[22:53:04] wagnerrp: someone who knows what they're doing can manage an external database server on their own just fine, but for the majority of users who don't know what they're doing, an embedded database makes things much cleaner
[22:53:10] SIFTU: yeah I remember the A1000's
[22:53:24] wagnerrp: ertyu-m: someone looked into that many years back, the sqlite database model was just too simplistic and limited
[22:53:24] whyzzyrd: so long as one *can* screw about at it
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[22:53:43] whyzzyrd: Then the evil T3's
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[22:54:08] whyzzyrd: you looked at their management interface funny, it fell over
[22:54:43] SIFTU: e250's and e350's were our main work horses
[22:54:47] wagnerrp: whyzzyrd: the likely route, any database access will be limited to the master backend, with everything else being required to perform commands through the backend protocol or services API
[22:54:57] whyzzyrd: 350's, you mean 450's :)
[22:55:00] whyzzyrd: or 3500's
[22:55:10] ertyu-m: good old e450 beer fridges
[22:55:18] wagnerrp: meaning if you want to perform direct database queries, you would need to write and load a plugin into the backend with those queries programmed into it
[22:55:44] SIFTU: ah 450's you are right
[22:55:46] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, ick spit
[22:55:51] SIFTU: I had a e3000 in my house
[22:56:08] whyzzyrd: SIFTU, we've still got a 450 running
[22:56:26] SIFTU: whyzzyrd: for heating?
[22:56:31] wagnerrp: the alternative would be terminating the backend, and loading up mysqld pointed at the database path
[22:56:38] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, I've had to go and fix my db before now, and I can't imagine doing that via that route
[22:56:56] ertyu-m: I've got an U2 around I use for development and something new and expensive and furnace like that I forget the model of
[22:57:23] wagnerrp: whyzzyrd: the idea is that when you lock out external access to the database, you can internally fix database corruption, without having to worry about external users mucking about in it and disrupting your recovery process
[22:57:35] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, I see why you'd want to do it that way
[22:57:48] whyzzyrd: SIFTU, no, for shell access IIRC
[22:57:51] wagnerrp: that's the primary reason why mythtv does not already internally handle database recovery
[22:58:08] ertyu-m: having the master control the database makes perfect sense to me, the current method not so much
[22:58:57] whyzzyrd: we're about to retire a 4900, now that's a spaceheater n a half
[23:00:03] SIFTU: whyzzyrd: lol, my e3000 ran is a closet in my house.. blew 2 power supplies, a cpu board and a memory board.. still ran
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[23:00:58] whyzzyrd: Whilst I'm a tinkerer at heart, I'd settle for the database not going wrong in the first place, or if it did, the master doing the recovery, provided it worked every time.
[23:01:31] ertyu-m: v480, thats what it is
[23:01:35] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, what's the idea wrt database backups if it's embedded?
[23:01:48] whyzzyrd: Ahh the venerable 480.
[23:01:55] SIFTU: lol
[23:02:01] whyzzyrd: we've got a couple still going, and a few 490's.
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[23:02:17] whyzzyrd: you could toast marshmallows off the back of a 490's ram bay
[23:02:36] whyzzyrd: you can't hold your hand in the outflow air
[23:02:38] ertyu-m: the 480s needed two 115v circuits if you followed the manual
[23:02:42] wagnerrp: the master backend would perform backups, updates, recovery as would be expected
[23:02:53] whyzzyrd: ahh, well.. we're all 230 :)
[23:03:11] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, I back up the db to another machine
[23:03:13] wagnerrp: but as mentioned, you don't have to worry about external access to the database changing things, and potentially corrupting things, when recovery is in progress
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[23:03:52] wagnerrp: there is already a DB Backups storage group that is used whenever the backend updates the schema
[23:04:11] wagnerrp: you would just have a share on a remote machine mounted there
[23:04:24] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, I never did quite get storage groups working properly..
[23:04:41] whyzzyrd: my slave backends write back by nfs :)
[23:04:56] wagnerrp: slave backends must write via NFS
[23:05:05] wagnerrp: recording over the backend protocol is not supported
[23:05:14] wagnerrp: slave backends must have local filesystem access
[23:05:22] wagnerrp: (for writes)
[23:05:25] whyzzyrd: that would explain how I never quite got it to work :)
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[23:06:49] sphery: stuartm: yeah, that will be nice
[23:07:22] whyzzyrd: If slaves could write back over "storage groups" or something similar, I suspect it would simplify matters for a few people. I misunderstood the documentation around storage groups, evidently.
[23:07:43] wagnerrp: most people really have no use for slave backends
[23:08:04] wagnerrp: since they only exist to provide external room where one machine cannot hold enough tuners or hard drive space
[23:08:31] whyzzyrd: true
[23:09:11] whyzzyrd: personally, I use them to locate the tuners on the end of the incoming cables, and because I built my mythtv system from scrap and a couple of drives.
[23:09:23] wagnerrp: sphery: im going to try to get the new scanner in some time this weekend, and hook it into the video library next week
[23:10:09] whyzzyrd: I had to go scrap pile hunting when you withdrew epia support
[23:10:31] wagnerrp: we didn't withdraw EPIA support, we withdrew XvMC support
[23:10:35] whyzzyrd: true
[23:10:46] wagnerrp: it's just that the EPIAs were next to worthless without that partial hardware acceleration
[23:10:50] whyzzyrd: but it amounts to the same thing
[23:11:16] whyzzyrd: my master's still an epia, but my frontends are now atom
[23:11:56] wagnerrp: what do you use for video, considering an Atom still isn't sufficient?
[23:12:10] wagnerrp: video playback
[23:12:15] whyzzyrd: atom
[23:12:23] whyzzyrd: I have no HD
[23:12:38] wagnerrp: still using standard definition analog?
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[23:13:00] wagnerrp: since anything digital, you get what the broadcaster sends you, and have no choice HD or SD
[23:13:00] whyzzyrd: SD DVB-T and DVB-S
[23:13:29] wagnerrp: ah, England?
[23:13:36] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, nah, we get T2 or S2 for HD
[23:13:38] wagnerrp: i know they generally only do HD on -S2 and -T2
[23:13:45] whyzzyrd: erm, scotland
[23:14:04] wagnerrp: considering there is nothing technically preventing the use of HD over -T and -S
[23:14:06] whyzzyrd: But I tune 5W, 13E, 19.2E, 28.2E and T
[23:14:20] wagnerrp: it's all just a function of bandwidth, and the older techs have plenty
[23:14:22] whyzzyrd: most of the euro satellites only do HD over S2
[23:14:56] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, where are you located?
[23:15:21] wagnerrp: US, we only have the one ATSC, and all of the major networks are HD
[23:15:37] whyzzyrd: that sortof complicates matters
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[23:15:52] whyzzyrd: well, for people that build stuff from scrap anyway
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[23:16:05] wagnerrp: well it does make things very simple, since you only need one kind of tuner to handle all your broadcast content
[23:16:21] wagnerrp: but it does require you have a 2005-era PC or better
[23:16:44] whyzzyrd: The beauty of the epia and the atom is the tiny power draw
[23:17:01] wagnerrp: there is no beauty in the atom
[23:17:05] whyzzyrd: The slave backend/frontend takes about 10w idle, 15w decoding
[23:17:32] wagnerrp: they started with a pentium m, and they ripped out its guts until they got the power consumption they wanted
[23:17:33] whyzzyrd: the epia, between 20 and 40 depending on the disks
[23:18:12] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, you'd be suprised just how quick a P233MMX really is :)
[23:18:46] wagnerrp: it's every bit as quick as a raspberry pi
[23:18:50] whyzzyrd: wagnerrp, the way the atom looks to me is a shrunk and clock ramped pentium (perhaps pro)..
[23:18:57] wagnerrp: but that's not saying much
[23:19:11] whyzzyrd: I'm not sure what all the hype is around a raspberry pi..
[23:19:29] wagnerrp: the atom has no out-of-order processing
[23:19:40] wagnerrp: meaning the IPCs have gone to crap
[23:19:50] wagnerrp: that's how they got such low power consumption
[23:20:02] whyzzyrd: Sure, it's nicely packaged, but it's not amazing
[23:20:11] wagnerrp: not by optimizing the architecture, but giving an existing architecture a lobotomy
[23:20:25] ertyu-m: I'm wondering if atom is dead now with ivy bridge pushing such a low wattage and that cellphone chip they have (unless that is an atom derivative)
[23:20:38] wagnerrp: their cell phone chip is an atom
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[23:20:49] SIFTU: ertyu-m: i would think the gen 4 will kill the atom
[23:21:26] whyzzyrd: Epias got to the point where they needed to redo the chipset, as it was taking more than the processor
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[23:21:53] wagnerrp: that's where atoms started
[23:22:07] SIFTU: haha true
[23:22:33] wagnerrp: the CPUs were only running 4W (although they were running 4W whether they were under full load or idle), but the P945 they had it matched with drew an extra 20W
[23:23:05] SIFTU: that was highly annoying
[23:23:10] SIFTU: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6355/intels-haswell-architecture/4
[23:23:18] whyzzyrd: however, when you now look at some of the GPUs and what they'll do on very little power, there's still quite the way to go with efficient processor design
[23:23:49] wagnerrp: the problem is that GPUs are a very specialized and very limited piece of hardwaer
[23:24:03] whyzzyrd: they are
[23:24:06] SIFTU: ??
[23:24:32] whyzzyrd: what they can do, they do very very well, but they've a very limited instruction set
[23:24:38] wagnerrp: sure, they're very fast for the amount of power they consume, but you can only run small, simple, and relatively linear chunks of code on them
[23:25:07] frontrange: I'm getting no where with Mythbuntu 12.4.01 using VPDAU. With my two Atom/ION FE's it just worked. Now I'm setting up a Core2 Duo with a PCI-e caed and mythsetp wizard says it cannot open video output when I choose any VDPAU profile. Have tried two cards on the supported list and both open source and Nvidia drivers with same results. Anyone have any ideas?
[23:25:24] whyzzyrd: I still think there's milage in the multi-core, more specialised core areas
[23:25:31] wagnerrp: mythtv-setup does not control video outputs, only video inputs
[23:25:42] justinh: I think people are forgetting what the original intent of the raspberry pi creators was. it certainly wasn't a low power low cost mythtv frontend :-P
[23:25:48] wagnerrp: are you sure you're in the right place?
[23:26:28] frontrange: This is the place for myth setup issues, right?
[23:26:53] wagnerrp: no, i mean the application 'mythtv-setup'... i don't think you're trying to configure the correct options
[23:27:03] wagnerrp: mythtv-setup is for configuring video inputs, capture hardware
[23:27:10] wagnerrp: it has nothing to do with your graphics card
[23:27:39] frontrange: Talking about the setup wizard where you test audio and video
[23:27:49] wagnerrp: ah, what card?
[23:28:01] sphery: perhaps you're talking about something like the MythTV Control Center (distribution-specific configuration application from *buntu)
[23:28:14] sphery: but the problem sounds like you have X authentication issues
[23:28:15] frontrange: first tried the Nvidia 9500 GT then the 8600 GT
[23:28:30] wagnerrp: you have the official nvidia drivers installed?
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[23:28:41] sphery: give the complete and uninterpreted error message and we could say for sure
[23:28:46] frontrange: tried both open source and Nvidia
[23:28:51] sphery: wagnerrp: sounds good on the scanner
[23:29:01] wagnerrp: only the closed source drivers support VDPAU
[23:29:32] whyzzyrd: when you've the closed-source drivers on, have you eliminated all traces of the open source ones?
[23:29:34] sphery: ah, you mean the MythTV GUI works, but VDPAU video rendering doesn't
[23:29:44] sphery: do you get a black screen or does it just fail back to the menu
[23:30:27] sphery: definitely sounds like driver installation issues (such as bad permissions or missing libvdpau--which isn't necessarily part of nvidia drivers)
[23:30:35] frontrange: Get a pop up windo saying "Failed to open video output" other profiles like OpenGL work fine
[23:31:33] frontrange: <whyzzyrd> Yes, did a complete reinstall between driver tests
[23:31:47] wagnerrp: do you have anything like compiz enabled?
[23:32:17] whyzzyrd: frontrange, I remember having issues many many moons ago with bits of the open source driver getting in the way of the closed source one, even when wasn't apparently referenced.
[23:32:25] frontrange: dunno, just did a defaul mythbuntu 12.4.01 install like on the ion systems that work fine..
[23:32:29] whyzzyrd: frontrange, but a reinstall would fix that.
[23:33:09] wagnerrp: this is a mythbuntu install, and not an ubuntu install with the mythbuntu packages?
[23:33:34] frontrange: mythbuntu 12.4.01 distro
[23:35:18] frontrange: Is there a substantial load diff between VDPAU and the working OpenGL profile?
[23:35:24] whyzzyrd: ok, it's o-dark-thirty here, so I'm off to bed.
[23:35:26] whyzzyrd: have a good one
[23:35:38] frontrange: G'night
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[23:39:27] lucas^: why doesn't MythTV query SchedulesDirect as often as it used to?
[23:39:45] lucas^: everything beyond midnight tonight is marked as 'Unknown' in the guides
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[23:42:37] wagnerrp: it should run once daily
[23:46:26] frontrange: So is anyone else running mythbuntu 12.4.01 with a PCI-e card (not ion) and have it running? Thinking about just running OpenGL profile..
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