| Saturday, January 28th, 2012, 00:01 UTC | ||
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| [00:27:35] | wagnerrp: | sphery: do you think ben curtis understood my implication, that the only people who call it 'x264 playback' are people who just see that 'x264' in the filename, but have never encoded videos on their own to understand what that means? |
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| [00:43:36] | sphery: | wagnerrp: I'm guessing not |
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| [01:17:08] | wagnerrp: | mythtv expects dedicated access to hardware... that means no sharing with other applications, or other instances of itself on the same or different machines |
| [01:17:15] | notlistening: | Hi all, if i have two backends, primary and secondary connected to one homerun unit with two tuners. The two tuners are defined in both pri and sec backends am i going to get problems. I want to record on one system the secondary backend and scrape the EIT on the primary will this cause problems when i am recording? |
| [01:17:33] | sphery: | and it wouldn't really provide any benefit over just defining it on the master backend, anyway, right? |
| [01:17:49] | sphery: | (or do you mean 2 separate and disconnected mythtv systems?) |
| [01:18:09] | wagnerrp: | if you define both tuners on that HDHR to both backends, mythtv will expect to be able to record using both simultaneously, and you will have "strange" problems |
| [01:18:10] | notlistening: | well the difference is that the secondary backend is running only for recording or when i want to watch content |
| [01:18:28] | notlistening: | however the primary backend is running all the time but is under powered |
| [01:18:30] | sphery: | what benefit is the remote backend providing, then? |
| [01:18:38] | sphery: | oh, well then there's your real problem |
| [01:18:45] | wagnerrp: | so make the secondary the primary, and get rid of the current primary all together |
| [01:18:55] | wagnerrp: | define "underpowered" |
| [01:19:21] | sphery: | and use automatic shutdown to power off the powerful-enough-to-be-a-backend system when not recording or not watching |
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| [01:20:19] | notlistening: | does that not cause problems with EIT data, how long does the system have to be running to scrape the info? |
| [01:20:45] | sphery: | well, currently the system will not allow shutdown if the tuners are in use |
| [01:21:02] | wagnerrp: | the active scanner will start running after five minutes of idle |
| [01:21:08] | sphery: | and if you enable active EIT collection (versus passive), the tuners will always be in use (when not for recording, for EIT) |
| [01:21:10] | wagnerrp: | can you not just use radio times? |
| [01:21:37] | notlistening: | I could |
| [01:21:39] | wagnerrp: | and please dont say youre mixing radio times and EIT data on the same channels |
| [01:21:54] | notlistening: | well this is why i have come in here to pick your brians on solutions |
| [01:22:06] | notlistening: | no i am using EIT only |
| [01:22:42] | notlistening: | how do you enable active EIT collection? |
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| [01:23:42] | wagnerrp: | if youre using EIT successfully, you likely have it enabled already |
| [01:23:56] | notlistening: | oh okay, yeah it is running fine |
| [01:24:02] | wagnerrp: | active, as opposed to passive where it just picks up whatever EIT data it can as youre recording |
| [01:24:22] | wagnerrp: | chances are if you use passive, and dont frequently flip through all of your channels |
| [01:24:30] | wagnerrp: | you would have some coming up bare in short order |
| [01:24:48] | notlistening: | that was what i was worried about |
| [01:26:26] | notlistening: | I currently have this setup working, with two backends and one homerun |
| [01:26:33] | notlistening: | it seems to work okay |
| [01:26:59] | notlistening: | however i have not watched it too carefully |
| [01:27:43] | wagnerrp: | sphery: seems rambus got their third primary patent invalidated |
| [01:30:37] | sphery: | nice |
| [01:33:13] | notlistening: | does myth lock the homerun to a channel while it records? |
| [01:33:30] | wagnerrp: | yes |
| [01:33:58] | notlistening: | so if the other backend was updating the EIT it would not be allow to switch the channel on the tuner right..? |
| [01:34:06] | wagnerrp: | however, im not sure that another backend cannot force itself into that tuner if a previous backend is already using it |
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| [01:34:19] | wagnerrp: | the HDHR will only send the data from one tuner to one UDP address |
| [01:35:30] | iamlindoro: | If the same recording device is defined on two backends, the second backend trying to do anything with it will simply break the recording |
| [01:35:38] | notlistening: | as long as i don't want try and record on the same tuner twice it should be okay |
| [01:35:44] | notlistening: | and has seemed to be |
| [01:35:48] | sphery: | and breaking the recording breaks the schedule |
| [01:35:51] | iamlindoro: | no, it won't be |
| [01:36:01] | sphery: | i.e. mythtv can't properly plan for usage if some recordings will fail |
| [01:36:12] | iamlindoro: | The instant one backend is recording and the other decides to use that tuner to do EIT, and it will happen, it'll break both |
| [01:36:44] | notlistening: | well I plan to only have the secondary backend recording as i have prioritied the tuners over the primary backend system |
| [01:36:47] | wagnerrp: | plain and simple, never define a tuner more than once in any mythtv system |
| [01:36:57] | iamlindoro: | yup |
| [01:37:06] | notlistening: | all being well they should never be used but as there as a backup if sometime goes very wrong |
| [01:37:09] | wagnerrp: | if the secondary backend is using both tuners, mythtv will simply try to reuse those tuners on the primary for recording |
| [01:37:21] | wagnerrp: | s/recording/EIT scraping/ |
| [01:37:28] | wagnerrp: | which will break your in progess recordings |
| [01:37:38] | sphery: | you could define one tuner on master and one on remote backend, but you're really much better off with just one backend with both tuners and, ideally, shutting it down when not in use ... http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/499490#499490 |
| [01:37:43] | notlistening: | oh humm |
| [01:37:53] | iamlindoro: | Not to mention eventually the scheduler will decide it needs to record three things or four things at once |
| [01:38:00] | sphery: | and note that even if you use EIT, you can /manually/ tell it when to shut down and have it wake up automatically to record |
| [01:38:04] | iamlindoro: | And since you've told it there are four tuners, it'll try |
| [01:38:09] | notlistening: | okay i will have a go at one primary and shutting it down |
| [01:38:34] | wagnerrp: | what are these two machines, specifically? |
| [01:38:35] | sphery: | or even still use mythwelcome + mythshutdown, but add your own check to the script that checks whether to allow shutdown so if only eit is happening, it shuts down |
| [01:38:59] | sphery: | yeah, what types of systems... |
| [01:39:25] | notlistening: | there is an atom ion 330 and the other is a vm running on a webserver |
| [01:39:34] | notlistening: | which is also an atom 330 |
| [01:39:38] | wagnerrp: | so theyre both junk |
| [01:39:44] | notlistening: | I have been slated for this before |
| [01:40:14] | sphery: | so switching to the other won't really improve performance |
| [01:40:18] | notlistening: | yes junk that is doing what i need them to |
| [01:40:41] | notlistening: | well it will as it is dedicated to doing the job |
| [01:40:50] | sphery: | (is the underpowered one that's currently master backend the VM?) |
| [01:41:01] | notlistening: | as i am in the UK I don't need to do advert flagging or transcoding |
| [01:41:10] | sphery: | if so, getting it to a dedicated machine will help |
| [01:41:18] | wagnerrp: | sphery: thats not exactly true, considering the 330 does not support any kind of hardware accelerated virtualization |
| [01:41:19] | notlistening: | sphery that right the master is the vm |
| [01:41:31] | wagnerrp: | so the VM on the 330 is running on a small fraction of junk |
| [01:41:54] | notlistening: | lol yes wagnerrp |
| [01:41:59] | sphery: | I think that's what I said... it will help if you move off the VM |
| [01:42:10] | notlistening: | 1/4 |
| [01:42:14] | wagnerrp: | "sphery> so switching to the other won't really improve performance" |
| [01:42:23] | wagnerrp: | yeah, you corrected yourself before i had a chance to |
| [01:42:26] | sphery: | right, I didn't know which was which |
| [01:42:30] | sphery: | no, didn't correct myself |
| [01:42:42] | sphery: | moving from Atom 330 to Atom 330 won't help |
| [01:43:05] | sphery: | but once it was clarified that it's currently in a VM, moving off VM would help |
| [01:43:25] | wagnerrp: | notlistening: anyway... the real issue is the scheduler and database |
| [01:43:30] | notlistening: | yeah okay i am also happy to do that |
| [01:43:59] | sphery: | on the bright side, even if you run the atom box 24/7, it's maybe a 35W system, right? |
| [01:44:10] | wagnerrp: | both are tasks that need relatively little power overall, but want a lot of it in bursts, and want it in short order when that happens |
| [01:44:31] | wagnerrp: | with only broadcast channels, a couple days worth of EIT data, and two tuners, youre likely fine |
| [01:44:44] | notlistening: | the machines are not suited to the task, that was my bad |
| [01:44:45] | sphery: | not sure how much it costs in UK, but that's only about 300kWh/yr |
| [01:44:59] | wagnerrp: | with more channels, or more days of data, or a bunch of recording rules, or a bunch of tuners to schedule over, the scheduler runs get much longer |
| [01:45:20] | wagnerrp: | once the scheduler runs hit somewhere around a minute, youre going to have problems |
| [01:45:36] | notlistening: | yeah i am keeping it this size a the moment, I don't watch that much tv :) |
| [01:45:38] | sphery: | in the US, that would be about $35/yr on average |
| [01:45:45] | wagnerrp: | notlistening: you can check your backend logs, and you will see periodic scheduler runs along with the amount of time they took to run |
| [01:45:58] | wagnerrp: | how many rules do you have currently? |
| [01:46:01] | notlistening: | let me have a look for you |
| [01:47:05] | notlistening: | how do i know how many rules i have? |
| [01:47:16] | wagnerrp: | do you have mythweb installed? |
| [01:47:29] | notlistening: | yes but not running |
| [01:47:43] | notlistening: | by rules you mean scheduled recordings? |
| [01:47:47] | wagnerrp: | just do a "select count(1) from record;" |
| [01:47:52] | wagnerrp: | i mean rules |
| [01:48:18] | wagnerrp: | i.e. "record shows of X title at any time" |
| [01:48:37] | notlistening: | right about 15 or so i think at a guess |
| [01:48:53] | wagnerrp: | with only 15, you shouldnt have any kind of problems |
| [01:49:04] | sphery: | especially with only a few channels |
| [01:49:12] | sphery: | (DVB-T, I'm guessing?) |
| [01:49:17] | notlistening: | yeah |
| [01:49:21] | notlistening: | 91 channels |
| [01:49:24] | notlistening: | or so |
| [01:49:30] | wagnerrp: | 91 on -T? wow... |
| [01:49:36] | sphery: | oh, wow, didn't realize there wer ethat many on T |
| [01:49:55] | ** sphery is no longer so impressed with his own OTA system ** | |
| [01:50:08] | wagnerrp: | so yeah, 15 rules on that processor could take a decent chunk of time |
| [01:50:26] | sphery: | it's probably good enough for you if it's been working ok |
| [01:50:35] | sphery: | you do need to only define each tuner once |
| [01:51:01] | sphery: | and, really, it seems that having 2 backends isn't really buying you anything |
| [01:51:02] | wagnerrp: | "specific channel" rules are a lot cheaper on the scheduler than "any channel" ones, but sphery is going to argue against using them anyway |
| [01:51:07] | notlistening: | Well there are over 100 but i limit it to TV+radio and enencrypted |
| [01:51:20] | sphery: | you can use them if you like |
| [01:51:29] | sphery: | just make sure you don't ever change your callsigns |
| [01:51:29] | wagnerrp: | encrypted? the HDHR-T doesnt do encrypted channels |
| [01:52:02] | wagnerrp: | unencrypted -T and -C only |
| [01:52:18] | notlistening: | Oh well myth reports encrypted streams int he scanner log |
| [01:52:22] | notlistening: | I just assumed |
| [01:52:54] | wagnerrp: | it will report them, sure... it just cant do anything with them unless you have a card with a CI slot, plus a CAM and smart card installed in it |
| [01:53:51] | notlistening: | no i can't do anything with them :) |
| [01:55:03] | wagnerrp: | well on the chance their EIT data may be getting populated by another channel, it would be a good idea to hide them so the scheduler knows not to waste time on them |
| [01:55:51] | notlistening: | okay I will give that a go |
| [01:57:02] | notlistening: | so if i want mythweb accessible all the time can i have the database hosted on the vm? |
| [01:57:22] | wagnerrp: | mythweb needs to be able to access the backend |
| [01:57:41] | notlistening: | :P buggers that idea |
| [01:57:59] | wagnerrp: | i would advise against bothering with VMs, i would highly advise against letting a VM anywhere near an Atom 330 |
| [01:58:09] | notlistening: | lol |
| [01:58:15] | wagnerrp: | due to the aforementioned lack of any form of hardware acceleration |
| [01:58:20] | notlistening: | I was just practising |
| [01:58:43] | wagnerrp: | which means for every virtual cycle, the host has to run several more to encapsulate it |
| [01:59:31] | Oleg_: | mythtv 0.25 will be released soon? |
| [01:59:44] | wagnerrp: | depends on your definition of soon |
| [01:59:55] | Oleg_: | well, in less than 6 months? |
| [01:59:58] | wagnerrp: | yes |
| [02:00:01] | Oleg_: | ok |
| [02:01:47] | ** iamlindoro has a major pet peeve about people who use a statement as a question ** | |
| [02:02:08] | iamlindoro: | It just takes one extra word…. *WILL* MythTV 0.25 be released soon? |
| [02:02:27] | wagnerrp: | thats the same number of words |
| [02:03:43] | iamlindoro: | true |
| [02:03:52] | Oleg_: | well, maybe my grammar is improper |
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| [02:04:00] | notlistening: | maybe :) |
| [02:04:01] | iamlindoro: | I don't think it's a maybe |
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| [02:22:44] | Beirdo: | wooooweee, does that smell good |
| [02:23:10] | Beirdo: | split pea soup (heavy on the ham) in the crockpot |
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| [02:29:24] | Hilikus: | hey guys |
| [02:29:56] | Hilikus: | if i have a specific online video, how can i see it in mythtv using the internal player?? |
| [02:30:25] | wagnerrp: | depending on the site, use mythnetvision |
| [02:30:31] | wagnerrp: | or potentially, just mythbrowser |
| [02:30:58] | Hilikus: | its not a video website, its from oracle |
| [02:31:24] | Hilikus: | ok, i'll try with mythbrowser then |
| [02:31:42] | wagnerrp: | mythnetvision has mechanisms to download videos and play with the internal player |
| [02:31:48] | wagnerrp: | but it doesnt really work without a grabber |
| [02:32:01] | wagnerrp: | best option... just download it manually, shove it into a storage group, scan, and play |
| [02:32:12] | Hilikus: | with mythbrowser i won't be able to control playback though, right? |
| [02:32:26] | wagnerrp: | with mythbrowser, not without a mouse |
| [02:32:31] | wagnerrp: | assuming its flash |
| [02:32:37] | wagnerrp: | if its not flash, i doubt it will play at all |
| [02:32:38] | J-e-f-f-A: | Gee, is the HDHR3–6CC just two HDHR3-CC's in one case? Seems that way – two network ports, two CC slots... |
| [02:32:53] | Hilikus: | it is flash, how can i download it though?? |
| [02:32:55] | wagnerrp: | yes, but rackmount, and one internal power supply |
| [02:33:08] | wagnerrp: | Hilikus: you just play it directly, and use the mouse to control it |
| [02:33:17] | Hilikus: | :( |
| [02:33:21] | ** J-e-f-f-A drools, and if he gets that $750 Amazon card 'bonus', he's getting one. ;-) ** | |
| [02:35:00] | J-e-f-f-A: | Then again, a standard 'prime' would do me just fine – I currently have two STBs with HD-PVRs and don't get many conflicts... |
| [02:35:23] | wagnerrp: | youre on fios, right? |
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| [02:35:30] | J-e-f-f-A: | Yeah. |
| [02:36:05] | J-e-f-f-A: | If what I've read is true, I should get everything fine... |
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| [02:37:42] | wagnerrp: | all but the premiums |
| [02:38:04] | wagnerrp: | but realize, you are trading the two $10/mo box rentals for one $3/mo cablecard rental |
| [02:38:08] | J-e-f-f-A: | wagnerrp: Well, I don't get them anyways... Actually, I have Showtime, but rarely record anything on it. |
| [02:38:20] | wagnerrp: | so the cost makes up for itself relatively quickly anyway |
| [02:38:23] | J-e-f-f-A: | wagnerrp: exactly. |
| [02:39:50] | J-e-f-f-A: | And maybe I'd keep one STB just in case I want to record a channel that's not available on the prime... Humm... Does Myth detect if the Prime can't tune a program due to the 'copy freely' flag? |
| [02:40:22] | wagnerrp: | no |
| [02:40:56] | J-e-f-f-A: | humm... and that flag is per-program, right? or is it per-channel? |
| [02:41:15] | wagnerrp: | per program |
| [02:41:22] | J-e-f-f-A: | that's what I figured. |
| [02:43:10] | J-e-f-f-A: | Well, I'll probably just get a 'regular' 3-tuner Prime to fiddle with [assuming I get this 'bonus']... and then decide weather or not to keep both 'standard' HD boxes. I'll probably let one go at least, as long as VZ doesn't start to lock everything down. |
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| [02:54:46] | wagnerrp: | sphery: by the way, chuck is over if you want to start watching it |
| [02:54:47] | wagnerrp: | :) |
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| [02:57:14] | sphery: | yeah, saw that tonight's was series finale |
| [02:57:28] | sphery: | only have the one season to watch, though :) |
| [02:57:44] | sphery: | so I was basically caught up |
| [02:57:47] | wagnerrp: | one? there were five |
| [02:58:26] | sphery: | yeah, I've already watched the first 4 |
| [02:58:29] | sphery: | so just one left |
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| [03:23:48] | iamlindoro: | J-e-f-f-A: Aren't you on FIOS? If so, they leave everything copy freely at present |
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| [03:27:21] | wagnerrp: | does anyone else think george takai is creepy? |
| [03:28:56] | [R]: | in star trek, in recent movies, or in the commercials for those tvs? |
| [03:29:26] | wagnerrp: | recent stuff in general |
| [03:30:32] | [R]: | i dont think so |
| [03:31:35] | wagnerrp: | i mean the way he says "yes" is just... unnerving |
| [03:31:59] | [R]: | lol |
| [03:32:00] | sphery: | wagnerrp: ye-ey-ey-es, you're right |
| [03:32:13] | sphery: | (ok, no idea how to spell it, but I know what you're saying) |
| [03:32:26] | wagnerrp: | hes either agreeing that he enjoys the extra colors, or that hes about to eat my face |
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| [03:50:32] | ** mangus580 does a happy dance ** | |
| [03:50:39] | mangus580: | got my second PVR-500 tonight |
| [03:51:20] | iamlindoro: | Did you go get it in your delorean? |
| [03:51:51] | [R]: | haha |
| [03:51:56] | mangus580: | :-D |
| [03:52:04] | mangus580: | I know... nobody uses crap like that anymore |
| [03:52:04] | [R]: | analog video makes me a sad panda |
| [03:52:11] | [R]: | analog sd* |
| [03:52:39] | mangus580: | yeah.... too bad I am cheap |
| [03:52:48] | mangus580: | ;-) I only have an SD tv to begin with anyway |
| [03:52:55] | [R]: | mythtv isn't a cheap hobby |
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| [03:54:05] | mangus580: | all depends on what quality you want ;-) |
| [03:54:41] | mangus580: | so far, my only cost has been 2 pvr-500's, a pair of firewire cables, and a simple zotac frontend box |
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| [03:55:41] | [R]: | and dont' forget that bank breaking $25/yr |
| [03:55:59] | mangus580: | well, there is that... |
| [03:57:39] | mangus580: | with the twin PVR-500's, I can pull 4 channels at once – plenty for me |
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| [03:58:31] | wagnerrp: | there is no "cheap" when youre using time warner |
| [03:58:50] | iamlindoro: | and not much in the way of quality either ;) |
| [03:58:56] | mangus580: | true |
| [04:00:05] | iamlindoro: | Poor analog capturing bastards |
| [04:00:18] | sphery: | thanks, guys... now I'm appreciating my OTA system, again--even if it doesn't have 90 channels :) |
| [04:00:41] | sphery: | good quality and no monthly subscription fees |
| [04:00:43] | iamlindoro: | pfffft, 90? 90 channels of children's programming here. |
| [04:00:49] | sphery: | hehe |
| [04:00:59] | sphery: | we had a UK guy earlier who had 90 channels with DVB-T |
| [04:01:04] | sphery: | I was impressed |
| [04:01:17] | sphery: | but, yeah, I'll bet not all are "good" channels |
| [04:01:35] | iamlindoro: | There are probably 2–3 dozen that I watch with any regularity |
| [04:01:38] | wagnerrp: | sphery: he was counting encrypted channels, so that doesnt count |
| [04:01:53] | sphery: | no, he said over 100 if you count encrypted, but his 90 didn't |
| [04:02:09] | mangus580: | I was impressed to be able to pull some channels from the TW box via firewire! |
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| [04:02:18] | wagnerrp: | did he? /me goes back to look |
| [04:02:43] | iamlindoro: | If he's getting 90 on DVB-T, that's multiple copies from multiple transponders |
| [04:02:53] | iamlindoro: | i.e., three BBC Ones |
| [04:03:01] | iamlindoro: | Which definitely *doesn't* count |
| [04:03:19] | sphery: | wagnerrp: specifically the 20:51:07 comment |
| [04:03:30] | wagnerrp: | "over 100 but i limit it to TV+radio and enencrypted" |
| [04:03:48] | wagnerrp: | so tv and radio... encrypted and unencrypted... |
| [04:03:56] | wagnerrp: | i dont know what that leaves out that would put him over 100 |
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| [04:04:48] | mersault: | So, I've noticed that a good portion of my listings have entirely incorrect episode descriptions. Canada's premier national news should not be described as "Gail takes revenge on Kulie; Becky disappears with Hope." Anyone else ever experience this? |
| [04:05:00] | sphery: | I read it as saying his 90 is TV+radio that's unencrypted... and that with encrypted there are over 100 |
| [04:05:06] | iamlindoro: | You're using a listings source and have EIT turned on too |
| [04:05:11] | wagnerrp: | are you doing bad things like mixing EIT and SD? |
| [04:05:40] | mersault: | oh, perhaps. |
| [04:05:44] | sphery: | mersault: those are the big headline in the news right now... you haven't heard about Gail, Kulie, Becky, and Hope? |
| [04:06:09] | mersault: | I haven't run mythtv-backend in… a very long time. |
| [04:06:26] | sphery: | yeah, you can use XMLTV (or Schedules Direct) on a channel or you can use EIT on a channel... You can't use both on the same channel |
| [04:06:54] | sphery: | in the US, you want Schedules Direct and no EIT |
| [04:07:14] | mersault: | Canada here, and I pull my data from SD. |
| [04:07:28] | mersault: | what's the details on this incompatibility? |
| [04:07:45] | wagnerrp: | you end up with problems with mixed times and metadata |
| [04:07:51] | wagnerrp: | throws the scheduler in a tizzy |
| [04:08:03] | wagnerrp: | things dont get recorded, wrong things get recorded |
| [04:08:03] | mersault: | Also, what is the setting in the DB? I'm presently recording so I don't want to stop the backend to fix this for another hour. |
| [04:08:08] | wagnerrp: | just generally bad things |
| [04:08:18] | sphery: | you have to stop the backend to fix it |
| [04:08:24] | sphery: | whether you change the setting now or later |
| [04:08:51] | mersault: | I understand, but a recording has unfortunately just started, but if I could verify my current EIT status, that would be useful |
| [04:09:09] | sphery: | so just wait 'til you're done recording, then stop backend, go into mythtv-setup, and then disable EIT on: a) every single channel or b) every single tuner or (most preferred) c) your video source that uses SD data |
| [04:09:09] | wagnerrp: | could we see the last couple hours of backend logs? |
| [04:09:35] | wagnerrp: | or if youve got mythweb running, look at the channel editor, there is a checkbox that will show if it is enabled for those particular channels |
| [04:09:41] | sphery: | yeah, backend logs would be best way to see if it's running |
| [04:09:55] | sphery: | eit is almost definitely enabled on channels |
| [04:09:58] | sphery: | it is by default |
| [04:10:02] | wagnerrp: | right |
| [04:10:05] | sphery: | usually people disable it on the video source |
| [04:10:31] | sphery: | i.e. it's enabled on every single one of my channels because it's easier to disable in one box rather than one/channel |
| [04:10:43] | mersault: | I do have mythweb. is it 'useonairguide'? |
| [04:11:50] | wagnerrp: | if that is checked, EIT may be running |
| [04:11:55] | mersault: | aha, useeit = 1 for my only video source in the videosource table in sql. |
| [04:11:57] | wagnerrp: | if it is not checked, it is definitely not running |
| [04:12:08] | mersault: | so yeah, looks like that's the issue. |
| [04:12:38] | mersault: | oh woah… a plaintext password. |
| [04:12:51] | mersault: | lame... |
| [04:12:57] | wagnerrp: | for schedules direct? |
| [04:13:01] | mersault: | aye |
| [04:13:10] | wagnerrp: | yeah, its been mentioned that needs to be fixed for some time |
| [04:13:16] | wagnerrp: | but no one has gotten around to it |
| [04:13:40] | mersault: | SD itself isn't a huge target, but the possibilities for shared passwords... |
| [04:13:51] | mersault: | and generally just silly |
| [04:14:04] | wagnerrp: | as it is, there is some mechanism to automatically anonymize that in the logs... but thats about it |
| [04:14:05] | mersault: | anyway, once this recording ends I'll disable EIT. |
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| [04:15:21] | mersault: | how reasonable would it be to just do a mysql update on that field and then restart mythtv-backend? |
| [04:15:36] | mersault: | rather than fire up VNC and bother with the whole mythtv-setup thing? |
| [04:15:43] | wagnerrp: | fire up vnc why? |
| [04:15:49] | mersault: | headless backend. |
| [04:16:00] | wagnerrp: | what OS are you using currently? |
| [04:16:05] | wagnerrp: | on the machine you are on right now |
| [04:16:06] | Hilikus (Hilikus!~hilikus@unaffiliated/hilikus) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [04:16:10] | mersault: | OS X. |
| [04:16:11] | sphery: | it can't be fixed |
| [04:16:20] | mersault: | I guess I could do remote X11 |
| [04:16:25] | wagnerrp: | so use the local X server |
| [04:16:31] | sphery: | we have to know the plain text password to send to SD |
| [04:17:01] | sphery: | so we either encode it using a 2-way encoding (keeps prying eyes from noticing it, but takes 2s for someone who knows what they're doing to reverse it) |
| [04:17:06] | wagnerrp: | you could encrypt it, but the code would still need to know how to decrypt it to send in plain text to SD |
| [04:17:14] | sphery: | or we leave it plain text where the user knows to protect it |
| [04:17:20] | sphery: | exactly |
| [04:17:32] | sphery: | meaning that encrypting is actually just a 2-way encoding |
| [04:17:34] | mersault: | that assumes the user is aware that they do need to protect it |
| [04:17:40] | mersault: | it needs to be advertised. |
| [04:17:41] | sphery: | because now we're just storing the password and the key |
| [04:17:51] | sphery: | yep, that's the only fix we'll do |
| [04:18:02] | sphery: | just warn the user that the password should not be used for other things |
| [04:18:05] | wagnerrp: | mersault: to be fair, anyone who knows the protocol can break into any system running mythtv |
| [04:18:11] | mersault: | yeah… I'd say that's still more useful, if the key isn't in the DB |
| [04:18:28] | sphery: | key would be either in the DB or in the publically visible source code |
| [04:18:31] | mersault: | I'm just thinking about someone who for whatever reason posts a mysqldump or something... |
| [04:18:46] | mersault: | sphery: or a properties file stored separately on disk |
| [04:19:01] | mersault: | it's not about eliminating the risk, just making it less likely to happen by accident |
| [04:19:42] | sphery: | no, it's about making it clear that it needs to be a password used for nothing else that you can change whenever |
| [04:19:55] | wagnerrp: | well thats why its anonymous in the logs |
| [04:20:06] | mersault: | I don't depend on mythtv'd code security to protect my network, but I'd still like to see all passwords encrypted and they key stored separately. |
| [04:20:36] | sphery: | half-arsed security is worse than none at all |
| [04:20:42] | sphery: | why make someone feel secure when they're not |
| [04:21:06] | sphery: | it's like the stupid browser-based "do you want me to store this password for you" |
| [04:21:12] | wagnerrp: | you mean like how OSX doesnt get viruses? |
| [04:21:18] | sphery: | all the information is there for the decrypting, so ... |
| [04:21:31] | sphery: | but people think it's safe because "it's encrypted" |
| [04:21:48] | mersault: | sphery, I think you're projecting. |
| [04:22:12] | sphery: | no, I'm just a big fan of do security right or not at all |
| [04:22:19] | sphery: | where 99% of the time, it should be not at all |
| [04:22:36] | sphery: | because I know far too many people who think they're safe using some extremely unsafe security practices |
| [04:22:44] | mersault: | I agree that misleading users is poor design. But where there are no expectations at all from the user one way or the other, it's not silly to put reasonable methods in place. |
| [04:23:27] | sphery: | (fortunately, though, most of the time, it's not a big deal... and for a SD password, it's definitely not a big deal unless the user uses the same password they used for everything else--which is a terrible idea no matter what we do with the password) |
| [04:23:31] | mersault: | I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a password in any db at all should be encrypted with the key stored separately. |
| [04:23:46] | sphery: | and so I'd prefer to just say, "use a password you don't use elsewhere because we will do our best to /not/ protect it" |
| [04:24:18] | sphery: | then the user at least knows not to use a "valuable" password |
| [04:24:25] | mersault: | I would agree if that was actually said. |
| [04:24:28] | sphery: | and is way to scared to do so |
| [04:24:32] | sphery: | it is what will be said |
| [04:24:38] | mersault: | but that does not appear when entering that info. |
| [04:24:43] | sphery: | not yet |
| [04:24:44] | sphery: | but will |
| [04:24:49] | sphery: | before 0.25 |
| [04:25:14] | sphery: | which means I should probably put it in place soon before we freeze strings |
| [04:25:50] | mersault: | well, I promise to promise but fail to come in here and mock you personally if 0.25 is released and this isn't made clear during install. |
| [04:26:00] | sphery: | hehe |
| [04:26:14] | sphery: | you should come in and yell at me if I forget |
| [04:26:59] | sphery: | hadn't done much with it because I had no idea what we'd be using for setup for 0.25, but it seems we'll still have a mythtv-setup for a while, so it makes sense to go ahead and change that code |
| [04:27:17] | sphery: | I may even put an in-your-face popup dialog in there for SD users to see |
| [04:28:39] | sphery: | You know, it's amazing how many celebrities die on Twitter, but then come back to life. |
| [04:28:50] | mersault: | heh |
| [04:29:08] | mersault: | any thought of a web based configuration for 0.25? |
| [04:29:17] | sphery: | it won't be finished |
| [04:29:31] | sphery: | not sure whether we'll leave the part that we have enabled or just disable it |
| [04:31:44] | mersault: | I haven't been paying attention, but in the interests of keeping the crickets at bay, what's the headline new stuff for 0.25? |
| [04:31:50] | mersault: | mostly backend or frontend changes? |
| [04:32:23] | wagnerrp: | !url releasenotes |
| [04:32:23] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword releasenotes |
| [04:32:30] | wagnerrp: | !url list |
| [04:32:30] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword list |
| [04:32:37] | wagnerrp: | !url help |
| [04:32:37] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword help |
| [04:32:43] | wagnerrp: | !url speak damn you |
| [04:32:43] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword speak |
| [04:33:08] | wagnerrp: | http://mythtv.org/wiki/Release_Notes_-_0.25 |
| [04:33:13] | mersault: | heh |
| [04:33:42] | ** wagnerrp goes into the database for more answers ** | |
| [04:34:09] | mersault: | oh, VAAPI is slick... |
| [04:34:29] | wagnerrp: | plugin_fart.so? |
| [04:34:39] | wagnerrp: | !fart on Beirdo |
| [04:35:00] | mersault: | AirTunes support will be nice |
| [04:35:30] | sphery: | !url list |
| [04:35:30] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword list |
| [04:35:47] | sphery: | I did a help url in privmsg, but can't figure out how to get that list |
| [04:35:51] | sphery: | !help url |
| [04:36:10] | wagnerrp: | sphery: speaking of that, we need to decide what to do about the airtunes key |
| [04:36:17] | sphery: | !url – list |
| [04:36:18] | MythLogBot: | analoghw digitalhw down faq google linuxtv lmgtfy log logs nocablecard overscan pastebin theming tuners upnp vdpau wiki |
| [04:36:21] | sphery: | oh, there... |
| [04:36:53] | wagnerrp: | we should probably remove that nocablecard |
| [04:36:53] | sphery: | so seems I needed a /q MythLogBot url #mythtv-users – list |
| [04:36:59] | sphery: | I didn't realize the – was required |
| [04:37:20] | sphery: | yeah, would be nice to add release notes, too |
| [04:37:55] | sphery: | actually, just change "nocablecard" to "recordingcable" or "cabletv" or something |
| [04:38:07] | sphery: | since it just goes to http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Recording_Digital_Cable (which is still very useful) |
| [04:38:29] | mersault: | is mythmusic going to get any love in 0.25? |
| [04:38:38] | sphery: | wagnerrp: yeah, I think I may send a message to -developers asking about removing it from our code and using an external file provided by users |
| [04:39:05] | sphery: | mersault: already got some |
| [04:39:13] | sphery: | hehe, I told he we already got some |
| [04:39:49] | sphery: | I've heard very good things about it (but as I don't have a music collection, I haven't used it) |
| [04:40:21] | sphery: | and since there's no api for pandora, I don't think I will be able to use it |
| [04:40:22] | mersault: | cool. that'll be awesome if it's good. the music plugin has been a serious weakness for a few releases now. |
| [04:40:37] | sphery: | yeah, it sounds like Paul did a great job on it |
| [04:40:55] | [R]: | sphery: there is pianobar... |
| [04:40:56] | sphery: | just has some expanding/enhancing to be done |
| [04:41:06] | sphery: | [R]: yeah, but pianobar doesn't belong in mythtv |
| [04:41:27] | [R]: | what do you mean belong? |
| [04:42:00] | sphery: | as a) it's a reverse-engineered protocol that Pandora doesn't support others using and b) protocol changes so frequently that if we tried to integrate pianobar/pythos-like code into MythTV, it would be broken a week after a stable release |
| [04:42:07] | [R]: | ah |
| [04:42:13] | sphery: | so I won't be using MythMusic for my music :) |
| [04:42:46] | sphery: | ah, yeah, just figured out your confusion... "and since there's no api for pandora, I don't think I will be able to use [MythMusic]" |
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| [04:42:48] | Beirdo: | wagnerrp: farting and belching are disabled |
| [04:42:57] | sphery: | "it" was MythMusic, not Pandora |
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| [04:45:05] | Beirdo: | yeah, let me finish this soup and we can tweak the urls |
| [04:45:41] | sphery: | hehe, "FirePassword is FREE console based tool to instantly recover login passwords stored by Firefox ... All these secret details are stored in Firefox sign-on database securely in an encrypted format. FirePassword can instantly decrypt and recover these secrets even if they are protected with master password." |
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| [04:45:58] | sphery: | um, what do you mean, "stored ... securely ... can instantly decrypt" |
| [04:46:29] | wagnerrp: | sounds like someone forgot to pass the salt |
| [04:46:50] | sphery: | no, it's just that it stores the encrypted passwords and stores the key there, too |
| [04:47:02] | Beirdo: | nah, the salt is all in my soup |
| [04:47:41] | jams: | sphery- in the same way this mortage company said my infomration was secure, but then I found their server had mysql open to the general internet. |
| [04:47:51] | jams: | they couldn't explain it |
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| [04:48:21] | mersault: | okay, I ran mythtv-seup, disabled EIT, and I see the value changed in the videosources table of the DB |
| [04:48:28] | sphery: | Reminds me of the story by the guy who wrote the MS Office decrypter when he lost the password to one of his files. Posted it online and people started using it, but he got hate mail saying that it couldn't possibly work because it was "too fast" (in spite of the fact that it gave them the password to get into their file--they claimed it was just a trick). So, he put a wait in there to wait some number of minutes before finally giving ... |
| [04:48:32] | mersault: | but the channels still have useonairguide checked in mythweb |
| [04:48:34] | sphery: | ... the password, then people loved it. |
| [04:48:57] | sphery: | mersault: yes, but because the videosource has EIT disabled, EIT won't run on any of the channels |
| [04:49:07] | sphery: | i.e. there are 3 places to enable/disable it |
| [04:49:12] | sphery: | to be used in different situations |
| [04:49:18] | wagnerrp: | sphery: was there some flag to 'run faster'? |
| [04:49:21] | mersault: | ah, and it doesn't cascade when the change is made. |
| [04:49:49] | mersault: | well, I've earned another scotch tonight. |
| [04:49:54] | sphery: | if you want it completely off, you disable on the video source(s); if you want it off on one or more tuners, you disable it on tuners; if you want it off on some channels but not others, you disable it on the channels |
| [04:50:42] | sphery: | you must have EIT enabled on card, source, and channel for EIT to work on some channel |
| [04:51:01] | sphery: | so disabling any of them stops EIT for that channel |
| [04:51:13] | sphery: | (in the case of disabling on the source, "that channel" = all channels on the source) |
| [04:51:22] | sphery: | wagnerrp: I don't think so |
| [04:54:41] | Beirdo: | watching some Ice Road Truckers |
| [04:55:17] | pyther (pyther!~pyther@unaffiliated/pyther) has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) | |
| [04:56:39] | Beirdo: | OK, you wanted nocablecard changed to what again? |
| [04:57:00] | wagnerrp: | well... something else that wouldnt say "we cant do cablecard" |
| [04:57:19] | Beirdo: | !url nocablecard |
| [04:57:19] | MythLogBot: | nocablecard: http://mythtv.org/wiki/Recording_Digital_Cable |
| [04:57:21] | Beirdo: | hmm |
| [04:57:23] | Beirdo: | k |
| [04:57:37] | sphery: | cabletv or recordingcable ? |
| [04:57:50] | wagnerrp: | ice road truckers... is that the one on the ice roads of alaska? or the one of the same name in the rainforests of bolivia? |
| [04:58:59] | Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +v MythLogBot | |
| [04:58:59] | Beirdo: | Oh that was pretty |
| [04:58:59] | Beirdo: | this one's in Alaska and northern Canada |
| [04:58:59] | Beirdo: | !url recordingcable |
| [04:59:00] | MythLogBot: | recordingcable: http://mythtv.org/wiki/Recording_Digital_Cable |
| [04:59:00] | sphery: | and release notes could go to: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Release_Notes or, to allow selecting the right version's release notes: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Category:Release_Notes |
| [04:59:00] | skd5aner: | watched season 1 of that, and decided anything beyond that was a waste of time |
| [04:59:00] | Beirdo: | gotta wait for it now |
| [04:59:00] | sphery: | wait for it... |
| [04:59:03] | sphery: | ary! |
| [04:59:04] | skd5aner: | you can only watch truck drivers drive so long... before you realize... I already watched that |
| [04:59:36] | skd5aner: | !url releasenotes |
| [04:59:36] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword releasenotes |
| [04:59:42] | [R] ([R]!~rbox@unaffiliated/rbox) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [04:59:49] | sphery: | skd5aner: which do you recommend for a releasenotes one? |
| [04:59:50] | Beirdo: | try now |
| [04:59:53] | sphery: | Beirdo: is setting it up |
| [04:59:59] | skd5aner: | Beirdo: if you do that, I would suggest a release notes for dev, and even more importantly, one for -fixes |
| [05:00:00] | sphery: | !url releasenotes |
| [05:00:00] | MythLogBot: | releasenotes: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Category:Release_Notes |
| [05:00:09] | sphery: | the category is nice because they can pick |
| [05:00:23] | Beirdo: | Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking too. |
| [05:00:30] | sphery: | but the 0.25 makes it look like we have a 0.25 released, already |
| [05:00:34] | Beirdo: | seems taht changing the name caused it to crap. :) |
| [05:00:38] | Beirdo: | bleh :) |
| [05:00:48] | skd5aner: | I would prefer the redirect page to latest major release (not "dot" release) – http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Release_Notes |
| [05:00:54] | sphery: | did we have a name for it befoer? |
| [05:01:08] | Beirdo: | no, but I changed the nocablecard one |
| [05:01:12] | sphery: | oh |
| [05:01:21] | Beirdo: | skd5aner: Hmm, that can be done |
| [05:01:28] | sphery: | skd5aner: though teh -fixes one is nice, too for showing what's fixed since release |
| [05:01:35] | Beirdo: | it makes no difference to me |
| [05:01:36] | sphery: | or finding out where the user it |
| [05:01:43] | sphery: | basically, you make too many good pages... |
| [05:02:09] | skd5aner: | maybe something like !url currentrelease to go to /Release_Notes |
| [05:02:18] | Beirdo: | sire |
| [05:02:22] | Beirdo: | sure even |
| [05:02:23] | Beirdo: | one sec |
| [05:02:59] | Beirdo: | !url currentrelease |
| [05:02:59] | MythLogBot: | currentrelease: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Release_Notes |
| [05:03:03] | Beirdo: | there |
| [05:03:15] | skd5aner: | and !url devrelease to go to http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Dev_Release_Notes |
| [05:03:19] | skd5aner: | (just created it) |
| [05:03:53] | Beirdo: | !url devrelease |
| [05:03:53] | MythLogBot: | devrelease: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Dev_Release_Notes |
| [05:03:57] | Beirdo: | :) |
| [05:04:19] | sphery: | wagnerrp: So, it seems the "salt" for firefox passwords is the firefox master password, which isn't enabled by default. The master password isn't stored on the machine, anywhere, so requires dictionary or brute-force type cracking. So, we could fix the problem by just making the user type in the password each time they run mythfilldatabse |
| [05:04:34] | skd5aner: | and !url fixesrelease to go to http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Fixes_Release_Notes |
| [05:04:51] | wagnerrp: | heh |
| [05:04:53] | sphery: | (ok, will still have some memory-based attacks available--and likely others that I haven't thought of--but it's about the best we could do for security) |
| [05:04:55] | wagnerrp: | that would work |
| [05:05:27] | skd5aner: | Beirdo: I think the fixes one would probably be the most useful and relevent one to reference in this room, I would think |
| [05:05:28] | Beirdo: | !url fixesrelease |
| [05:05:28] | MythLogBot: | fixesrelease: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Fixes_Release_Notes |
| [05:05:39] | Beirdo: | hard to seay |
| [05:05:44] | sphery: | basically, with master password, you "log in" to the "software security device" when you need access to password database, and can log out when you're done with it |
| [05:05:50] | Beirdo: | so many lusers using 0.23 even still |
| [05:06:01] | skd5aner: | sphery, wagnerrp, and the rest of the folks who are constantly pointing out that a user could upgrade to a specific version of -fixes to resolve a fxed bug |
| [05:06:06] | sphery: | or, as most would do, log in when you start firefox, then leave it logged in for 3 weeks while firefox is running |
| [05:06:23] | Beirdo: | true |
| [05:06:30] | skd5aner: | Beirdo: maybe for ease, would it make since to simplify it as !url release fixes/dev/current |
| [05:06:34] | skd5aner: | ? |
| [05:06:35] | Beirdo: | sphery: flush firefox down the toilet where it belongs |
| [05:06:49] | Beirdo: | nope |
| [05:06:52] | Beirdo: | that won't work |
| [05:06:55] | skd5aner: | ok :) |
| [05:07:02] | sphery: | skd5aner: I like the redirect links... gives nice names |
| [05:07:12] | wagnerrp: | Beirdo: and send it to google? |
| [05:07:13] | sphery: | anyone know if we have a way to show them also in category page? |
| [05:07:16] | skd5aner: | yea, then it can always be upgraded to current |
| [05:07:23] | Beirdo: | the second parameter would be for a %s |
| [05:07:35] | wagnerrp: | sphery: you can add categories to redirect pages |
| [05:07:36] | skd5aner: | You could manually edit the category page I believe |
| [05:07:36] | Beirdo: | like in: |
| [05:07:44] | Beirdo: | !url google firefox sucks |
| [05:07:44] | MythLogBot: | google: http://www.google.com/ |
| [05:07:45] | skd5aner: | or add the cat to the redirect page |
| [05:07:48] | Beirdo: | hmm |
| [05:07:52] | wagnerrp: | you can have a full page hidden behind a redirect |
| [05:07:57] | Beirdo: | !url lmgtfy firefox sucks |
| [05:07:57] | MythLogBot: | lmgtfy: http://lmgtfy.com?q=firefox%20sucks |
| [05:08:01] | Beirdo: | there we go |
| [05:08:05] | sphery: | wagnerrp: in such a way that it also shows that Release Notes – 0.25 = Dev_Release_Notes |
| [05:08:08] | sphery: | ? |
| [05:08:26] | wagnerrp: | not that i know of |
| [05:08:34] | skd5aner: | Beirdo: NP... I just happened to drop in for 2 minutes before bed... just stumbled upon you guys working on it at the right second :) |
| [05:08:42] | sphery: | I'm stil waiting for someone to set up a "Let Me Bing That for You" site... |
| [05:08:44] | wagnerrp: | Beirdo: i was thinking more along the lines of flushing it, and sending it to google through TiSP |
| [05:08:50] | sphery: | searches /and/ plays a "bing" sound |
| [05:09:04] | Beirdo: | hehe |
| [05:09:29] | sphery: | wagnerrp: tisp is fake, right? |
| [05:09:47] | wagnerrp: | what? no |
| [05:10:18] | Beirdo: | yeah, it was announced April 1, 2007 |
| [05:10:20] | Beirdo: | you do the math |
| [05:10:43] | sphery: | you can't propagate an April Fools' lie in January! |
| [05:10:50] | sphery: | get a calendar, wagnerrp ! |
| [05:11:04] | skd5aner: | hmmm, I can't seem to do this "#REDIRECT [[Release_Notes_-_{{CurrentFixes}}]]" |
| [05:11:08] | wagnerrp: | its april somewhere |
| [05:11:11] | Beirdo: | that was a really good one though |
| [05:11:17] | sphery: | hehe |
| [05:11:20] | [R]: | wagnerrp: i don't think it works that way |
| [05:11:35] | skd5aner: | any ideas on the wiki syntax to allow a template to populate a wiki tag? |
| [05:12:13] | Beirdo: | OMG |
| [05:12:19] | Beirdo: | http://www.google.com/onceuponatime/tisp/install.html |
| [05:12:23] | skd5aner: | anyway – I've got to get to bed... later |
| [05:12:27] | Beirdo: | that's still a good read :) |
| [05:12:51] | skd5aner: | even better – http://groups.google.com/group/google-tisp/?pli=1 |
| [05:13:16] | Beirdo: | the install instructions though... wow :) |
| [05:13:29] | [R] ([R]!~rbox@unaffiliated/rbox) has quit (Quit: Leaving) | |
| [05:13:59] | skd5aner: | !url help |
| [05:13:59] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword help |
| [05:14:03] | skd5aner: | !url |
| [05:14:06] | skd5aner: | how do I get a list? |
| [05:14:08] | skd5aner: | !url ? |
| [05:14:08] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword ? |
| [05:14:33] | skd5aner: | !url releasefixes |
| [05:14:33] | MythLogBot: | No match for keyword releasefixes |
| [05:14:46] | skd5aner: | !url fixesrelease |
| [05:14:46] | MythLogBot: | fixesrelease: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Fixes_Release_Notes |
| [05:15:03] | Beirdo: | !url – list |
| [05:15:03] | MythLogBot: | analoghw currentrelease devrelease digitalhw down faq fixesrelease google linuxtv lmgtfy log logs overscan pastebin recordingcable releasenotes theming tuners upnp vdpau wiki |
| [05:15:14] | Beirdo: | or |
| [05:15:22] | Beirdo: | !help url |
| [05:15:24] | Beirdo: | :) |
| [05:15:44] | mersault: | "Each package comes pre-sealed in a watertight and nanobot-resistant bag made of biodegradable corn-based plastic." |
| [05:16:10] | sphery: | !help url – list |
| [05:16:16] | sphery: | !url – list |
| [05:16:16] | MythLogBot: | analoghw currentrelease devrelease digitalhw down faq fixesrelease google linuxtv lmgtfy log logs overscan pastebin recordingcable releasenotes theming tuners upnp vdpau wiki |
| [05:16:26] | sphery: | very nice |
| [05:19:29] | Beirdo: | !url – last |
| [05:19:40] | Beirdo: | come on, you POS |
| [05:19:49] | sphery: | wait for it! |
| [05:19:51] | wagnerrp: | list perhaps? |
| [05:19:52] | Beirdo: | oh, it worked |
| [05:19:54] | Beirdo: | heheh |
| [05:19:59] | wagnerrp: | !url – list |
| [05:19:59] | MythLogBot: | analoghw currentrelease devrelease digitalhw down faq fixesrelease google linuxtv lmgtfy log logs overscan pastebin recordingcable releasenotes theming tuners upnp vdpau wiki |
| [05:20:00] | Beirdo: | it PMs the last 3 URLs |
| [05:20:08] | sphery: | oh, cool |
| [05:20:09] | wagnerrp: | oh, you really did want last |
| [05:20:16] | Beirdo: | yup ;) |
| [05:20:26] | sphery: | so if you start in a pm... |
| [05:21:09] | Beirdo: | it would be : url #mythtv-users – list |
| [05:21:11] | Beirdo: | or whatever |
| [05:21:26] | Beirdo: | If I remeember right |
| [05:21:34] | sphery: | yeah, been doing some PMs, just wondered if it would get confused, but it didn't |
| [05:21:42] | Beirdo: | nope :) |
| [05:21:44] | sphery: | sometimes I spend all night talking with MythLogBot |
| [05:21:52] | Beirdo: | you strange man :) |
| [05:21:54] | sphery: | I like that it really seems to listen |
| [05:22:09] | Beirdo: | It's obviously not my ex |
| [05:22:30] | Beirdo: | it even existed before I knew her in person |
| [05:22:54] | skd5aner: | Beirdo: Can you remove the "releasenotes" one just to eliminate confusion/duplicates |
| [05:23:28] | Beirdo: | !url – list |
| [05:23:28] | MythLogBot: | analoghw currentrelease devrelease digitalhw down faq fixesrelease google linuxtv lmgtfy log logs overscan pastebin recordingcable releasenotes(disabled) theming tuners upnp vdpau wiki |
| [05:23:34] | Beirdo: | heh |
| [05:23:53] | Beirdo: | I didn't actually implement a delete, it seems |
| [05:23:58] | skd5aner: | heh |
| [05:24:19] | Beirdo: | I thought I had, but I don't see it |
| [05:24:41] | sphery: | could change it to thisisnotthewordyouwanted |
| [05:25:28] | Beirdo: | how about this |
| [05:25:32] | Beirdo: | !url – list |
| [05:25:32] | MythLogBot: | analoghw currentrelease devrelease digitalhw down faq fixesrelease google linuxtv lmgtfy log logs mchou(disabled) overscan pastebin recordingcable theming tuners upnp vdpau wiki |
| [05:25:37] | ** Beirdo snickers ** | |
| [05:25:40] | mersault (mersault!~mersault@home.nullpointer.ca) has quit (Quit: mersault) | |
| [05:25:45] | sphery: | hehe |
| [05:26:26] | sphery: | how about v1@gRa... seems to be popular term--I get a ton of emails about it |
| [05:26:49] | Beirdo: | there |
| [05:27:21] | sphery: | hehe, the reminder for later |
| [05:28:08] | Hilikus (Hilikus!~hilikus@unaffiliated/hilikus) has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | |
| [05:28:11] | Beirdo: | should do for now |
| [05:28:33] | sphery: | yeah, but knowing you, I have a feeling mythlogbot 17.3 will be finished soon, adding a delete functionality |
| [05:28:41] | Beirdo: | heheh |
| [05:28:50] | Beirdo: | !version |
| [05:28:58] | Beirdo: | dangit |
| [05:29:02] | Beirdo: | !help |
| [05:29:07] | Beirdo: | !list |
| [05:29:26] | Beirdo: | hmm |
| [05:29:26] | sphery: | !svn |
| [05:29:33] | sphery: | oh, that's the lookup... nvm |
| [05:29:38] | Beirdo: | hehe |
| [05:29:43] | sphery: | thought it was something that needed updating |
| [05:29:44] | Beirdo: | !svn 10344 |
| [05:29:44] | MythLogBot: | No match for SVN revision 10344 |
| [05:29:53] | Beirdo: | !help symbol |
| [05:30:01] | kormoc (kormoc!~kormoc@mythtv/developer/kormoc) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [05:30:01] | Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +v kormoc | |
| [05:30:03] | Beirdo: | ahhh, right, for debugging |
| [05:30:07] | sphery: | hehe, good test of svn... must have been a mythweb one |
| [05:30:28] | Beirdo: | [10234] |
| [05:30:29] | MythLogBot: | No match for SVN revision 10234 |
| [05:30:36] | Beirdo: | hmm |
| [05:30:38] | Beirdo: | [1] |
| [05:30:38] | MythLogBot: | SVN 1: (branch master) https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/ce7a5f62 |
| [05:30:41] | Beirdo: | OK |
| [05:30:49] | Beirdo: | heh, it's not completely borked then |
| [05:30:50] | sphery: | must have been one of those nights that kormoc was tearing through the tickets |
| [05:30:55] | sphery: | he probably took the whole 10K range |
| [05:31:03] | Beirdo: | hehe |
| [05:32:07] | Beirdo: | 01:31 CTCP VERSION reply from MythLogBot: beirdobot — v0.4-102-g11a138c |
| [05:32:10] | Beirdo: | there it is |
| [05:32:48] | sphery: | hehe, wow, not bad for a 0.4 |
| [05:33:03] | sphery: | that's like 0.20 newer than mythtv |
| [05:33:14] | bobgill (bobgill!~smileyfac@CPE0016b6062e69-CM00222da10af5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | |
| [05:33:16] | Beirdo: | there's a buncha stuff I'll get to adding eventually |
| [05:33:22] | Beirdo: | and fix the lucene part |
| [05:34:28] | bobgill (bobgill!~smileyfac@CPE0016b6062e69-CM00222da10af5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [05:34:29] | zombor (zombor!~zombor_@kohana/developer/zombor) has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | |
| [05:34:30] | Beirdo: | it's partway there though :) |
| [05:34:44] | Beirdo: | oooh, I just had a thought. |
| [05:35:10] | Beirdo: | I should make a pouch to store my sewing tools in... from some of the huge pile of denim I have here |
| [05:36:04] | Beirdo: | I needed more denim to finish the quilt (binding) |
| [05:36:28] | Beirdo: | so I got like 12 pairs of jeans in a fit of lack of self control (at Goodwill for $1.09/lb) |
| [05:36:46] | Beirdo: | so now I have like... 11 pairs of jeans' worth of denim |
| [05:36:56] | Beirdo: | turns out I needed just one pair |
| [05:36:57] | Beirdo: | heh |
| [05:38:11] | skd5aner: | sphery: I caught a little of your lirc conversation earlier... |
| [05:39:01] | skd5aner: | I'm not sure I agree completely – I like being able to use lircrc, but I do understand trying to make a remote "just work" since lirc has always been one of the biggest learning curves and hurdles for setup |
| [05:39:23] | sphery: | all I'm saying is the lircrc makes no difference |
| [05:39:34] | sphery: | either way we're just mapping a logical name to a mythtv action |
| [05:39:46] | sphery: | whether that name is defined in lircrc or lircd.conf |
| [05:40:10] | sphery: | and there's no way we can pre-populate the right "standardized" names for every remote |
| [05:40:58] | sphery: | so unless we choose just one--like mce remote--it will actually make things more challenging because users will either have it just work (having no clue how) or will have to unmap and then remap the standard names as appropriate for their non-MCE remote |
| [05:41:36] | sphery: | if the goal is to separate action handling from its keypress foundation, I'm all for that |
| [05:41:46] | sphery: | but I don't think it will make remotes "just work" at all |
| [05:41:54] | wagnerrp: | if using the standard lirc namespace, i just dont think thats the case |
| [05:42:21] | sphery: | after all, why doesn't the remote "just work" when using inputdev and not using lirc? |
| [05:43:07] | sphery: | because users have to remap things to make the definition decided by some kernel dev (or, in the use lircd.conf directly, the lircd.conf designer) fit how they want to use the remote with mythtv |
| [05:43:20] | sphery: | i.e. some remotes have 20 buttons |
| [05:43:28] | sphery: | some have 30, some have 40, ... |
| [05:44:21] | sphery: | anyway, I don't care if you all go that way, but the abstraction is there for a (very good) reason |
| [05:44:26] | sphery: | just like video sources aren't lineups |
| [05:44:27] | wagnerrp: | people have to remap their keyboards (if they actually used keyboards to control mythtv) |
| [05:44:32] | sphery: | and storage groups aren't directories |
| [05:45:00] | sphery: | yes, if they want to use a keyboard and they want some key other than the one we chose to be used for an action, they have to remap |
| [05:45:01] | skd5aner: | I don't know what the answer is – I haven't thought about it much at all |
| [05:45:25] | sphery: | but if they're willing to learn, their keyboard already has the key we mapped, so they can just learn it the way we mapped it by default |
| [05:45:35] | wagnerrp: | its just that currently the ir codes are abstracted into the lirc namespace, which is then abstracted into lircrc keycodes, which are then abstracted into actions |
| [05:45:38] | sphery: | if we map remote buttons by default, which of the 430 do we map |
| [05:45:41] | wagnerrp: | its just way too many levels |
| [05:45:47] | sphery: | and what of the users with fewer remote buttons |
| [05:46:11] | wagnerrp: | map functions to a dozen different keys |
| [05:46:37] | wagnerrp: | use any and all that specific remote decides to use |
| [05:46:39] | sphery: | no, hardware is abstracted by lircd.conf, then applications are abstracted by lircrc, then how to use each action in each context is abstracted by mythtv |
| [05:47:09] | sphery: | anyway, if we do remove the key-based foundation for actions, then whether you use a lircrc or not makes no difference to users who don't use lirc modes, etc. |
| [05:47:21] | sphery: | but it still doesn't make a remote "just work" |
| [05:47:29] | sphery: | they never will until there's only one design |
| [05:48:01] | sphery: | i.e. more like keyboards (though with today's modern media keyboards and laptop keyboards, even they require per-keyboard configuration) |
| [05:49:42] | sphery: | so, really, I have no problems with people wanting to remove a level of abstraction that they don't use/don't see a benefit in, but I do have a problem with people saying it would make remotes just work |
| [05:50:05] | sphery: | that said, though, using lircd.conf key names is equivalent to using scan codes on a keyboard rather than using keysyms |
| [05:50:45] | sphery: | (ok, maybe more equivalent to using key codes rather than keysyms--scan codes would be like using the IR code itself) |
| [05:51:16] | sphery: | but still, note that keyboards have the same types of abstraction as LIRC provides |
| [05:52:44] | sphery: | anyway, IMHO, it's like saying that now that we have an HTTP-based services API, that 3rd party apps "just work" |
| [05:53:25] | sphery: | (when they don't unless they know how to use the api and can deal with changes to the api... i.e. there's a lot more to it than it seems at first glance) |
| [05:53:44] | Memphis (Memphis!Memphisau@124-170-87-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [05:53:56] | wagnerrp: | i think its more like how UPNP "just works" |
| [05:54:17] | emmanuelux (emmanuelux!~emmanuel@2a01:e35:2e4d:9010:21d:60ff:fe0e:b818) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [05:54:18] | sphery: | yeah, basically |
| [05:54:32] | wagnerrp: | since we are talking about a pre-defined namespace |
| [05:54:44] | wagnerrp: | and we can adhere to that namespace as much as we want to for compatibility |
| [05:54:45] | sphery: | yes, predefined namespace of 430 keys |
| [05:55:01] | sphery: | but we have no clue how much of that keyspace to use because different remotes have different numbers of buttons |
| [05:55:08] | wagnerrp: | so? |
| [05:55:30] | sphery: | so we can make things like 1, 2, 3, ... 9 work (which generally just work with any remote anyway, now) and maybe even ones like play, pause, etc |
| [05:55:30] | wagnerrp: | er use every single name that makes sense to map to one of our actions |
| [05:57:02] | sphery: | which means we then need a 50-key remote for it to just work |
| [05:57:08] | sphery: | or users have to unmap/remap |
| [05:57:45] | sphery: | because we though there was a good key for COMMERCIALSKIP, but the user doesn't have a lot of buttons, and they enabled auto-commercial-skip, so they don't need that |
| [05:57:48] | sphery: | or whatever |
| [05:57:51] | autojack (autojack!~owen@mail2.nerdnetworks.org) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [05:58:07] | wagnerrp: | for instance, youve got KEY_TUNER, KEY_TV, KEY_TV2... just send them all to the write place |
| [05:58:35] | wagnerrp: | there are some 70 codes that are only use for joysticks |
| [05:58:36] | sphery: | yeah, but who defines "right"... and doesn't defining that require knowledge of how many/which keys are available on a remote? |
| [05:58:58] | wagnerrp: | crap like TEEN or TEXT or WIMAX or WORDPROCESSOR |
| [05:59:03] | autojack: | I'm setting up a remote frontend for the first time (after years of running a combined frontend/backend). if I want this box to be able to play MP3s and stored video off the master backend, do I have to set up SMB or something and mount shared directories on the backend? |
| [05:59:08] | wagnerrp: | who even knows what ZENKAKUHANKAKU is |
| [05:59:20] | sphery: | because there are some actions that are quite useful, but you wouldn't waste a remote button on them if your remote is lacking |
| [05:59:47] | wagnerrp: | autojack: stored video just gets streamed from the master backend, assuming you define the storage using the proper groups in mythtv-setup |
| [06:00:04] | wagnerrp: | music has not been converted to that system yet, and still must be shared using some form of network file system |
| [06:00:06] | autojack: | wagnerrp: I mean like local avi files, not recorded TV etc. |
| [06:00:07] | sphery: | autojack: mythtv only needs local file system access for writing (i.e. recording and transcoding) |
| [06:00:10] | wagnerrp: | preferably NFS, not SMB |
| [06:00:26] | wagnerrp: | autojack: yes, non-recording video |
| [06:00:28] | sphery: | or for some plugin stuff |
| [06:00:34] | wagnerrp: | http://mythtv.org/wiki/Video_Library |
| [06:00:41] | autojack: | cool, thank you :) |
| [06:00:55] | sphery: | so a backend will need write access to the file system |
| [06:01:02] | autojack: | NFS is really preferable to SMB? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they prefered NFS to.. anything :) |
| [06:01:04] | wagnerrp: | see the item at top for 'storage groups' |
| [06:01:13] | sphery: | (because backend implies you have one or more tuners, and, therefore, will be recording with it) |
| [06:01:19] | wagnerrp: | autojack: new to linux then? |
| [06:01:33] | autojack: | 13 years new. |
| [06:01:55] | wagnerrp: | and all that time, people actually want to use samba when there are alternatives? |
| [06:02:08] | wagnerrp: | not sure what crowd youre hanging around with |
| [06:02:12] | autojack: | hehe |
| [06:02:25] | wagnerrp: | the only real advantage to using samba over nfs is security |
| [06:02:39] | wagnerrp: | nfs assumes youre operating on a trusted network |
| [06:02:41] | autojack: | maybe it's just that I've heard ops people bitching about NFS for 13 years. |
| [06:02:48] | autojack: | not necessarily saying there is anything better than it :) |
| [06:03:21] | autojack: | that's fine though, I've set up NFS before and my home network is trusted. |
| [06:03:58] | autojack: | I only have AFP configured on the backend right now anyway (for Mac Time Machine backups) so either way... |
| [06:03:59] | wagnerrp: | basically, NFS being simple means you get rid of a bunch of overhead that slows samba/cifs down |
| [06:04:10] | autojack: | OK. |
| [06:04:24] | wagnerrp: | in particular, there are some pretty nasty issues with cifs when parsing large directory trees |
| [06:04:40] | autojack: | nod |
| [06:05:07] | wagnerrp: | anyway.... recordings and video get streamed internally, photos and music still need some sort of network mount |
| [06:05:29] | autojack: | OK. I should be able to handle that. thanks for the pointer, I appreciate it :) |
| [06:05:54] | autojack: | I think I've been using MythTV for about 8–9 years now. man that seems crazy. |
| [06:06:47] | wagnerrp: | sphery: so basically, youre saying the "ok" button on a 5-way control might be better mapped to something different if your remote only has 8 buttons |
| [06:07:08] | wagnerrp: | so without that layer, there is no way to account for it without the user remapping it |
| [06:08:41] | sphery: | well, there is a way, just no "one size fits all" |
| [06:08:51] | sphery: | and I'm saying that the layer is irrelevant |
| [06:09:18] | sphery: | so whether we use lircd.conf names or .lircrc actions, there is no one size fits all |
| [06:09:41] | sphery: | but at least with current, distros, etc, can use .lircrc to bridge the middle ground between remote and pre-configured mythtv keys |
| [06:10:13] | wagnerrp: | assuming the user tells the distro what remote they have, and the distro has a profile set up for it |
| [06:10:58] | wagnerrp: | why need that be performed by the distro rather than us? |
| [06:10:59] | sphery: | if we do change the mythtv action layer to remove the key-based assumptions, then whether we use lircrc or lircd.conf, custom remapping will be required for each remote |
| [06:11:06] | sphery: | but I still think that's a good thing to do |
| [06:11:23] | wagnerrp: | no it wouldnt |
| [06:11:50] | wagnerrp: | just have a script that reads the key/action mapping out of the database, and replaces the keys in lircrc with the actions |
| [06:11:53] | sphery: | well, when I have my planned changes for key bindings "themes" in place, then, yeah, we could do the custom mapping for whatever remote they tell us they have |
| [06:13:50] | sphery: | main reason we need to remove the key-based assumptions from mythtv actions is because it limits how many actions we can have so we reuse ones like COMMERCIALSKIP to mean "import flag list" in Edit mode |
| [06:17:16] | sphery: | and the "if we do change the mythtv action layer to remove the key-based assumptions, thenwhether we use lircrc or lircd.conf, custom remapping will be required" is back to the "different remotes have different numbers of keys" argument |
| [06:17:22] | Memphis: | does anyone know how to force a resolution (my TV only detects 720P; where it should do 1080P) using the built-in/opensource Radeon driver (I'm using Mythbuntu/Ubuntu Oneiric and a radeon 5450 for my Mythtv setup)? cheers |
| [06:17:34] | sphery: | meaning it's the same argument as why using lircd.conf doesn't make remotes just work |
| [06:18:18] | wagnerrp: | well the standardized namespace wasnt even in place until 2008 or so |
| [06:18:28] | wagnerrp: | and then it took a long time to convert all the existing driver config |
| [06:19:08] | sphery: | right but standard namespace doesn't help when remotes themselves aren't standard |
| [06:19:39] | sphery: | remote requires someone to decide which buttons should map to which actions |
| [06:19:45] | sphery: | that someone could be a) lircrc designer |
| [06:19:56] | sphery: | b) mythtv developer who just hard codes in lircd.conf names |
| [06:20:30] | sphery: | c) mythtv developer who creates a database of remotes and applies logical names to mythtv context/actions in keybindings or to jumppoints |
| [06:20:34] | wagnerrp: | c) users who submit maps |
| [06:20:50] | sphery: | that logical name could be a name in lircd.conf or lircrc--it makes no difference whatever since it's just a name |
| [06:20:53] | wagnerrp: | all gets back to actually using that services.mythtv.org |
| [06:21:08] | sphery: | so lircrc isn't the problem here |
| [06:21:36] | sphery: | to get remotes to "just work" requires someone to create a database of remotes and appropriate per-remote configuration for use with MythTV |
| [06:21:44] | sphery: | currently distros have that, but we could bring it into mythtv |
| [06:22:02] | sphery: | but it requires a database because you can't just assume one remote layout |
| [06:22:06] | skd5aner: | sphery: one thing I think would make sense, regardless, is that when a user DOES want to customize a remote binding, they do it in the same way they edit a keybinding for a keyboard... go to the edit keys menu, select an action, and press the appropriate button on the remote |
| [06:22:22] | skd5aner: | instead of working about some conf file somewhere |
| [06:22:37] | sphery: | and whether we use lircd.conf or .lircrc, there's no difference to mythtv--they're both just names |
| [06:22:53] | sphery: | skd5aner: I do that all the time in 0.24 |
| [06:23:02] | wagnerrp: | skd5aner: thats the point i was trying to make that started this whole thing |
| [06:23:08] | skd5aner: | heh |
| [06:23:24] | sphery: | again, it makes no difference |
| [06:23:27] | sphery: | it's just a name |
| [06:23:28] | skd5aner: | I'm not paying full attention – starting to get sleepy |
| [06:23:35] | sphery: | currently the names in lircrc are key names |
| [06:23:38] | sphery: | but it makes no difference |
| [06:24:16] | sphery: | the only issue with current is that when hitting a button on the remote when it says, "Press a key", you're changing both remote /and/ keyboard configuration for that key |
| [06:24:25] | skd5aner: | Well, I can tell you – when I update ubuntu last – about 20% of my remote mapping from lircd.conf to lircrc got messed up |
| [06:24:29] | sphery: | so if you guys don't like that, then break apart the key-based assumptions of MythTV actions |
| [06:24:35] | sphery: | but it's /not/ because of lircrc |
| [06:24:36] | skd5aner: | they changed the names of the keys within lirc for some dumb reason for the mce remotes |
| [06:24:50] | sphery: | "they" != mythtv |
| [06:24:53] | skd5aner: | sphery: there is no "you guys" – I'm not arguing |
| [06:24:58] | skd5aner: | and I know that too |
| [06:25:03] | sphery: | that means someone on your distro changed lircd.conf without updating your lircrc |
| [06:25:06] | skd5aner: | ubuntu and/or lirc did that |
| [06:25:21] | skd5aner: | I know – I had to go change all those things – but I don't run a myth distro... |
| [06:25:29] | skd5aner: | so the lircrc is basically a custom file I put there myself |
| [06:25:32] | sphery: | and I've been saying all night that the /only/ benefit of using lircd.conf names directly is it prevents that one misconfiguration |
| [06:25:41] | sphery: | i.e. using different names in lircd.conf and lircrc |
| [06:26:28] | sphery: | but again, I don't care what we use... it's just names |
| [06:26:37] | skd5aner: | but, those names can (And do) change |
| [06:26:48] | skd5aner: | even if you take out the middle layer |
| [06:26:52] | sphery: | I, personally, will use .lircrc (because I do use lirc modes) |
| [06:27:02] | sphery: | but if you guys want to lose that abstraction, feel free |
| [06:27:11] | sphery: | but it doesn't make remotes "just work" |
| [06:27:49] | sphery: | only a database of remotes and proper mapping of remote buttons to mythtv actions makes a remote just work |
| [06:27:55] | skd5aner: | oh – on that note... I've never used irexec, but I'm debating setting up a few things to make it easier for the wife to troubleshoot when things go awry |
| [06:28:08] | sphery: | and we could do that, but it has nothing to do with lircd.conf vs lircrc |
| [06:28:15] | skd5aner: | killall mythfrontend for example |
| [06:28:22] | wagnerrp: | sphery: theres no reason that couldnt be performed outside of lircrc |
| [06:28:29] | sphery: | right |
| [06:28:30] | wagnerrp: | one way or another, the codes still come into mythtv |
| [06:28:37] | sphery: | lircrc or lircd.conf makes no difference |
| [06:28:44] | wagnerrp: | its just whether that is stored in an lircrc, or stored in the database |
| [06:28:57] | sphery: | we need a mapping of a name (who cares where that comes from) to mythtv context/action pairs |
| [06:29:01] | wagnerrp: | and im saying storing it in the database means you dont have to go mess with files outside of mythtv |
| [06:29:07] | sphery: | fine |
| [06:29:21] | sphery: | but separate out the key-based assumptions of th eaction layer in mythtv |
| [06:29:34] | wagnerrp: | thats fine, thats a whole other issue entirely |
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| [06:29:41] | sphery: | then do the mapping |
| [06:29:59] | sphery: | but have many mappings for many remotes that get applied together--a "theme" |
| [06:30:04] | ** skd5aner bows out of discussion as he thinks lirc is inherintely evil and pleads ignorance on the subject ** | |
| [06:30:18] | sphery: | (i.e. you have themes for various remote models/styles, and apply the one the user selects) |
| [06:30:24] | autojack: | wagnerrp: hm, so I set up storage groups, and now the frontend sees a list of video files that are on the backend, but it can't play any of them. |
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| [06:30:33] | autojack: | it's just giving a "can't find the file" error. |
| [06:30:50] | sphery: | wagnerrp: I'm just saying it makes no difference where the name comes from.. whether it's lircrc or lircd.conf |
| [06:31:21] | sphery: | again, only thing using lircd.conf names does is avoid the potential problem of a misconfigured remote where lircd.conf and lircrc use different button names |
| [06:31:53] | sphery: | no one has shown any other thing that changes |
| [06:32:05] | wagnerrp: | autojack: on the phone currently, i could probably help you in 20 minutes or so if no one else gets to you |
| [06:32:08] | sphery: | we still need a database of remotes with button-mythtv context/action mappings |
| [06:32:31] | autojack: | oops, it might be working now... I didn't rescan the media first. |
| [06:32:38] | autojack: | hm, or not. |
| [06:32:38] | sphery: | was about to suggest a rescan :) |
| [06:32:52] | autojack: | that time it tried to play, but then dropped me back to the UI. |
| [06:33:07] | skd5aner: | what kind of files? |
| [06:33:08] | sphery: | what do logs say (frontend and backend) |
| [06:33:42] | skd5aner: | -v playback |
| [06:33:49] | autojack: | hmm, frontend is saying stuff like "failed to open socket" |
| [06:34:12] | autojack: | "does storage group exist?" hmm. |
| [06:34:15] | autojack: | yes it exists, I created it! |
| [06:34:34] | sphery: | content is on backend? |
| [06:34:40] | autojack: | yep. |
| [06:34:53] | sphery: | storage group is defined on that backend with proper directory list? |
| [06:35:04] | autojack: | frontend looks like it's trying to connect to e.g. myth://Banners@127.0.0.1 |
| [06:35:19] | sphery: | and, yeah, you'll want to define all the images directories |
| [06:35:24] | autojack: | I did. |
| [06:35:28] | autojack: | but I only defined them on the backend. |
| [06:35:38] | sphery: | you have only one host in use on all of mythtv? |
| [06:35:44] | sphery: | if not, you cannot use 127.0.0.1 |
| [06:35:48] | sphery: | (anywhere in the config) |
| [06:35:59] | autojack: | what do you mean by one host? |
| [06:36:15] | autojack: | I have 2 frontends and 1 master backend |
| [06:36:22] | sphery: | you'd need to go into mythtv-setup on all the mythtv hosts and change master backend and this backend IP address settings to use routable addresses |
| [06:36:27] | sphery: | so, yeah, you need to |
| [06:36:43] | sphery: | since that means you have at least 2 computers in use |
| [06:36:47] | autojack: | hmm. I thought I did that. |
| [06:37:07] | sphery: | well, myth://Banners@127.0.0.1 |
| [06:37:14] | sphery: | says you have 127.0.0.1 in there somewhere |
| [06:37:23] | autojack: | right. let me check. |
| [06:38:29] | autojack: | do I need to create these same storage groups on my frontend? or only on the backend? |
| [06:38:40] | autojack: | instructions seemed to indicate just the backend. |
| [06:38:59] | sphery: | only backends need storage groups |
| [06:39:18] | sphery: | for tv storage groups, you should only define dirs on master backend |
| [06:39:27] | autojack: | ok. |
| [06:39:45] | sphery: | for video (non-recording) storage groups and images storage groups, you have to define them on each backend that has video/images content |
| [06:39:51] | autojack: | on my frontend-only, can I use 127.0.0.1 to connect to the LOCAL backend? or is even that not OK? |
| [06:40:14] | sphery: | no, you can't use 127.0.0.1 or localhost anywhere in the config if you have more than one host |
| [06:40:18] | autojack: | OK |
| [06:40:31] | autojack: | so even when it is connecting to itself, it has to use an addressable IP. got it. |
| [06:40:43] | sphery: | only exception is that you can use localhost for a mysql database hostname on the host where the mysql database runs |
| [06:40:45] | autojack: | I should probably give this box a static IP then. |
| [06:41:37] | sphery: | and, assuming you run mysqld on the master backend, you probably should use localhost for the DBHostName on the master backend for significantly improved performance (like >10x better) with data-intensive queries |
| [06:41:49] | autojack: | yeah, I think I am/ |
| [06:41:55] | sphery: | yeah, you'll need static ips |
| [06:42:13] | sphery: | (or at least statically-assigned by the dhcp server) |
| [06:43:06] | autojack: | yeah. I'll just assign one here. |
| [06:44:19] | autojack: | I love that someone near me has a wifi network named HERPES |
| [06:46:11] | ** wizbit switches off wireless ** | |
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| [06:49:26] | Blaksmith: | hmm, just want to verify .. if card 1 is in use recording, and I'm in setup, it won't let card 0 scan? (card 1 is analog, card 0 is digital) |
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| [06:53:11] | autojack: | ok, let's see what happens now. |
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| [06:54:43] | wagnerrp: | sphery: would that be something worth fixing for 0.25 to make things consistent? |
| [06:54:57] | wagnerrp: | all video directories getting defined on the master backend |
| [06:55:07] | sphery: | I'm thinking after 0.25 |
| [06:55:16] | wagnerrp: | with a protocol to enumerate available backends for scanning |
| [06:55:36] | wagnerrp: | as it is, the only real reason to do that is so you can restrict the scope of the scan in case backends are offline |
| [06:55:37] | sphery: | when we have the schema which allows a "last seen at" and maybe some tracking of which backends are available |
| [06:55:48] | autojack: | ummm hmm |
| [06:56:03] | sphery: | yeah, it's kind of a shortcut that allows us to know which backends to scan for video content |
| [06:56:11] | autojack: | somehow I got logged out while trying to play a video. |
| [06:56:24] | wagnerrp: | i doubt it would be that difficult to add the method in |
| [06:56:42] | sphery: | if you have an idea, it would be nice to make it standardized |
| [06:56:47] | sphery: | I just haven't come up with a good plan |
| [06:57:02] | sphery: | (and was delaying until we had more of the recordedfile stuff in place) |
| [06:57:23] | Blaksmith: | wagnerrp, don't you ever sleep? HAHAHA |
| [06:57:42] | autojack: | huh, interesting. |
| [06:57:51] | sphery: | but we definitely need to keep track of which backends are up/connected, anyway, so wouldn't hurt to get that in even if we don't change around the videos dir scannign stuff |
| [06:57:54] | autojack: | I think it's trying to work, but failing because sound isn't working on here. |
| [06:57:56] | wagnerrp: | it would be simple enough just to add another QStringList into the mainserver, add a new hostname when a slave backend connects, drop it when it disconnects |
| [06:57:58] | autojack: | I saw a frame of video. |
| [06:58:02] | autojack: | then mythfrontend segfaulted. |
| [06:58:07] | wagnerrp: | and then a query to list what slaves are connected |
| [06:58:15] | wagnerrp: | then just scan all available slaves |
| [06:58:20] | autojack: | ALSA, Error: WriteAudio: buffer underrun |
| [06:58:42] | sphery: | yeah, and maybe update it occasionally (either heartbeat or even just when we fail to connect to a backend we though was up) |
| [06:58:47] | autojack: | oh how I love troubleshooting ALSA errors :) |
| [06:58:49] | wagnerrp: | sphery: it would only be temporary code, since that stuff is all basically handled automatically in libmythprotoserver |
| [06:58:58] | sphery: | hehe, cool |
| [06:59:18] | sphery: | it would be nice to allow the no-overrides required config for videos/images |
| [06:59:43] | sphery: | (as there's a /lot/ of those SGs to define, so doing it on multiple systems can be annoying--especially if dirs are identical) |
| [06:59:58] | autojack: | well, wife is heading home now, I'll mess with it more tomorrow. |
| [07:00:04] | autojack: | thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it. |
| [07:00:11] | sphery: | I'm note sure how iamlin doro feels about it, thoug |
| [07:00:42] | sphery: | autojack: good luck... and, yeah, audio can be a challenge |
| [07:00:46] | wagnerrp: | yeah... i can put the query into mainserver tonight, but i would want to talk it over with him before making any modifications to the scanner |
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| [07:01:16] | autojack: | sphery: one of the reasons I gave up on Linux on the desktop a long time ago ;) |
| [07:01:20] | sphery: | hehe |
| [07:01:27] | autojack: | the trifecta of sound, wireless, and video :) |
| [07:01:28] | sphery: | well, it's gotten better in recent years |
| [07:01:31] | autojack: | it's always one of them. |
| [07:01:43] | sphery: | definitely not the mess it was back in the days of OSS 3.kernel |
| [07:01:44] | autojack: | yeah so I see. I'm using Ubuntu on this new frontend. |
| [07:01:50] | autojack: | *shudder* |
| [07:01:58] | wagnerrp: | wasnt 2004 the year of the linux desktop? |
| [07:02:11] | wagnerrp: | (and every year since) |
| [07:02:17] | autojack: | getting wifi working was pretty easy, though I had to download some firmware files and stick them in /lib/firmware or w/e |
| [07:02:19] | sphery: | hehe, weren't all years since about 2004 the year of the linux desktop |
| [07:02:24] | sphery: | oh, yeah, that's what you said |
| [07:02:29] | autojack: | man I thought like 2001 was the year :) |
| [07:02:47] | sphery: | 2001 was a space odyssey |
| [07:02:50] | autojack: | I tried for a long time, I have to say. |
| [07:02:58] | autojack: | but Apple eventually won my heart. |
| [07:03:02] | autojack: | still use Myth though :) |
| [07:03:04] | wagnerrp: | well theres your problem, i wasnt even a linux user in 2001 |
| [07:03:09] | autojack: | haha |
| [07:03:19] | autojack: | I started with Red Hat 6. |
| [07:03:28] | sphery: | applie is a good choice for *nix like and usable |
| [07:03:31] | sphery: | er, apple |
| [07:03:43] | wagnerrp: | sounds about right |
| [07:04:00] | autojack: | Apple is good for GSD. |
| [07:04:02] | wagnerrp: | i installed a copy of 5 or 6 in a vmware player instance on my laptop some time around then |
| [07:04:13] | wagnerrp: | and thats about as far as i got |
| [07:04:13] | sphery: | of course, now that they've become a iTunes company, it looks like that might change |
| [07:04:19] | Blaksmith: | apple is just a BSD flavor .. |
| [07:04:21] | sphery: | (i.e. "we want 30% off everything") |
| [07:04:33] | Blaksmith: | I started with RH 4.0 heh |
| [07:05:07] | sphery: | the EULA for the iBooks Author software tells you--after you finish composing your book--that if you sell the book you wrote with iBooks Author, you may /only/ sell it through iTunes (= "we get our 30% of all your sales") |
| [07:05:20] | wagnerrp: | Blaksmith: BSD-based OS... but not kernel |
| [07:05:30] | sphery: | I remember when Apple sold computers and devices... now they just sell other people's stuff and take their 30% |
| [07:05:56] | sphery: | wagnerrp: does apple use a custom kernel? not even bsd-based? |
| [07:06:04] | sphery: | mach? |
| [07:06:07] | Blaksmith: | wagnerrp, ahh.. I would have thought that they used the BSD kernel also ... look you can teach old dogs new tricks heheh |
| [07:06:32] | wagnerrp: | Blaksmith: no, they use a derivative of the Mach microkernel |
| [07:06:41] | Blaksmith: | they used to use the 6802 cpu, if I'm corret |
| [07:06:55] | sphery: | hehe, wow, that was an old neuron that half-remembered mach, but it was actually right |
| [07:06:57] | Blaksmith: | or was that the commie 64 that used the 6802 |
| [07:07:27] | autojack: | ok, bedtime for real here. thanks again guys. |
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| [07:09:00] | Blaksmith: | heh, I'm doing yet another scan ... for some reason, one of the channels I set up, had a duplicate channel number, that I renumbered as I flipped through them, and it didn't record my news tonight .. so, I did something wrong on my channel editing of the digital card .. /sigh/ |
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| [07:14:43] | Blaksmith: | is there any "right" way to remap the channels to the right order? for example, I have the "charter" input, and my "scanned" input... I need to map channel 703, which is on the "charter" input over to the "scanned" input (after I find which one it is and set the numbering of it) ... should I delete the 703 form the "charter" input? |
| [07:16:03] | Blaksmith: | or leave it in both? |
| [07:16:39] | Blaksmith: | my SchedulesDirect lists the HD channel as 703, but of course the analog card can't see it ... |
| [07:16:42] | wagnerrp: | presumably those are in two separate video sources? |
| [07:16:55] | Blaksmith: | yes, "charter" is the analog, and "scanned" is the digital |
| [07:17:46] | wagnerrp: | usually schedules direct will have different xmltvids for the standard definition (analog) and high definition (digital) channels |
| [07:18:18] | Blaksmith: | hmm, I will have to re-look at my SD account then.. because I didn't see anything like that earlier today when I looked |
| [07:20:23] | Blaksmith: | ahh.. you know what.. I had the digital set, instead of the analog |
| [07:21:49] | Blaksmith: | but, looking at the SD lineup for the digital, it only shows the actual # that would be on the box, not the 27–3 .. or whatever it would be |
| [07:23:35] | wagnerrp: | right, schedules direct does not know the physical mappings |
| [07:24:39] | Blaksmith: | ok, so I could use the digital lineup, instead of both? since the digital does carry all of them, but the regular only has the lower 100? |
| [07:25:05] | Blaksmith: | I've been only using the digital for the last few years |
| [07:25:10] | wagnerrp: | better to leave the analog lineup on the analog video source |
| [07:25:20] | Blaksmith: | ahh ok.. |
| [07:25:28] | wagnerrp: | as mythtv will automatically update the analog source with new channels from schedules direct |
| [07:25:31] | Blaksmith: | I have never tried setting a different lineup for each .. |
| [07:25:45] | wagnerrp: | while it will refuse to do so if any digital tuners are linked to a video source |
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| [07:26:58] | Blaksmith: | ok, so, possible steps .. remove all lineups, and then re-add them per tuner? |
| [07:27:25] | wagnerrp: | you want two lineups on your SD account, analog and digital cable for your area |
| [07:27:35] | wagnerrp: | you want two video sources, one for each of those lineups |
| [07:27:36] | ** Blaksmith nods .. got that now ** | |
| [07:27:48] | wagnerrp: | for the analog, just pull the lineup from SD |
| [07:27:56] | wagnerrp: | for the digital, youll have to scan as you did before |
| [07:27:57] | Blaksmith: | ok.. need to do the 2 sources (well, change them, but yah) |
| [07:28:07] | Blaksmith: | just got done scanning |
| [07:28:22] | wagnerrp: | the analog video source gets mapped to the -150, and analog on the -1800 (with sufficiently new drivers) |
| [07:28:38] | wagnerrp: | while the digital video source gets mapped to the digital on the -1800 |
| [07:29:03] | wagnerrp: | if youve been mixing analog and digital tuners on a single video source, it may be prudent to just wipe the source clean and start fresh |
| [07:29:13] | Blaksmith: | my analog on the -1800 is not hooked up |
| [07:29:49] | wagnerrp: | not yet, and shouldnt be until you update your kernel or drivers to a point past the recent fix |
| [07:30:10] | Blaksmith: | I probably won't be hooking them up .. only a 2 way splitter, not 3 :D |
| [07:30:26] | wagnerrp: | http://www.kernellabs.com/blog/?p=1636 |
| [07:30:37] | wagnerrp: | so get a 3-way, its not like theyre expensive or anything |
| [07:31:19] | Blaksmith: | but, it makes sense to have the different lineups... I wasn't mixing, but the analog did have the higher digital all along .. just need to change that |
| [07:31:34] | Blaksmith: | I probably have a 3-way around here somewhere hehe probably a 4-way, |
| [07:31:41] | wagnerrp: | yes, separate lineups, separate video sources |
| [07:33:45] | Blaksmith: | ok, sources set. |
| [07:37:47] | Blaksmith: | going to do a channel wipe, since the regular analog still has a lot of the HD channels still listed |
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| [07:39:01] | Blaksmith: | and now for the 10 minute scan hehe |
| [07:39:16] | Blaksmith: | analog looks good with no chans over 99 now |
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| [08:05:58] | Blaksmith: | ok, got picture on all valid channels... :D now to start to do the remapping |
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| [08:10:09] | davey486: | can I put a tv tuner card in m y backend computer and be able to watch different channels on all my tvs? |
| [08:11:55] | wagnerrp: | only if you have enough tuners to tune all those different channels simultaneously |
| [08:11:55] | davey486: | And is there a cheap usb controller that works with mythtv? I'm actually going to use mythbuntu |
| [08:12:02] | wagnerrp: | !url tuners |
| [08:12:02] | MythLogBot: | tuners: http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hardwar . . . _Information |
| [08:13:16] | davey486: | is mythbuntu a pretty good os, or is there something that might be a little better, like say fedora or redhat? |
| [08:13:37] | wagnerrp: | do you have any experience with linux? |
| [08:14:08] | davey486: | I have been tinkering with ubuntu version 6.04 |
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| [08:14:34] | wagnerrp: | you recently picked up a 6yr old copy of ubuntu? |
| [08:14:38] | davey486: | And I can't find a 32bit precompiled version for xp |
| [08:14:55] | wagnerrp: | mythtv doesnt run on XP |
| [08:15:06] | davey486: | no, since 6.04, I'm runn 11.10 now |
| [08:15:28] | wagnerrp: | well then ive youve been using ubuntu for almost six years, then mythbuntu is your best bet for mythtv |
| [08:15:52] | wagnerrp: | no sense struggling through learning mythtv and a new distro at the same time |
| [08:16:08] | wagnerrp: | for what its worth, fedora is redhat |
| [08:16:38] | wagnerrp: | unless youre talking about RHEL, but chances are youre not going to shell out the money for an enterprise version of linux for home use |
| [08:16:42] | davey486: | yeah, dunno why i typed that, the first 2 that popped into my head |
| [08:17:57] | davey486: | Can I stream to windows 7 media player ? |
| [08:18:10] | davey486: | I have 2 laptops running 7 |
| [08:18:26] | wagnerrp: | you mentioned "XP"... you can compile and run the frontend on windows, but the backend really needs to run on a linux system |
| [08:18:56] | wagnerrp: | mythtv has little support for recording devices outside of linux, and none in windows |
| [08:19:11] | davey486: | don't know how to do that, compile |
| [08:19:44] | davey486: | i was looking for a precompiled version i could use buy only found 64 bit |
| [08:19:45] | wagnerrp: | look on the wiki, theres a guy who makes periodic Windows builds available for download |
| [08:20:14] | davey486: | on the mythtv homepage |
| [08:21:03] | wagnerrp: | http://members.iinet.net.au/~davco/ |
| [08:21:30] | davey486: | I'll check it out, what about bwing able to stream to media player 11? |
| [08:21:56] | wagnerrp: | mythtv has a upnp server, and can stream content to WMP11 |
| [08:21:57] | davey486: | or can only myth tv connect to a myth backend? |
| [08:22:24] | wagnerrp: | in so far as WMP11 sort of has UPNP support |
| [08:22:24] | davey486: | oh good, so i don't need to fiddle with my win7 computers, cool |
| [08:23:48] | davey486: | thanks for the information you gave i appreciate it, can you suggest to me a inexpensive remote for mythbuntu? |
| [08:24:19] | wagnerrp: | some tuners come with remotes |
| [08:24:32] | wagnerrp: | for stand alone IR, most people tend to like the MCEUSB units |
| [08:25:15] | davey486: | do you know if haupaug (sp?) cards work good? |
| [08:25:59] | wagnerrp: | what do you want to record? |
| [08:27:02] | davey486: | nothing inperticular, just want the dvr option |
| [08:27:40] | wagnerrp: | then i should warn you that mythtv is really designed with the intent that you record and watch later |
| [08:28:12] | wagnerrp: | you can watch live, but since none of the developers really use it outside of debugging purposes, its slow and sometimes buggy |
| [08:28:25] | davey486: | I have a large digital video collection |
| [08:28:31] | wagnerrp: | you create recording rules for anything you think you might ever be interested in |
| [08:28:54] | davey486: | would mythtv be good for that? |
| [08:28:57] | wagnerrp: | and then you provide enough tuners to satisfy conflicts, and enough storage space to save it all (or just let it auto-expire) |
| [08:29:13] | wagnerrp: | see mythvideo... http://mythtv.org/wiki/Video_Library |
| [08:30:08] | davey486: | does it sound to you like maybe i would be better off using another software? |
| [08:30:18] | davey486: | XBMC perhaps? |
| [08:30:59] | wagnerrp: | if you want a media library software, go with xbmc |
| [08:31:10] | wagnerrp: | if you want a dvr software with media library capabilities, go with mythtv |
| [08:31:45] | davey486: | Yeah, basically i want to watch my videos stored on my hard drive, with the option to record something i might not be able to see at the time |
| [08:32:14] | wagnerrp: | then i would question why you want to watch it "at the time" |
| [08:32:31] | wagnerrp: | the purpose of a DVR is to record everything you may want to watch |
| [08:32:35] | wagnerrp: | and then watch it on your own time |
| [08:32:51] | davey486: | i meant watch it at the time it is showing |
| [08:33:04] | wagnerrp: | so did i |
| [08:33:30] | davey486: | lkike if im not home when its airs i could record it and view it later |
| [08:33:59] | wagnerrp: | if you are home when it airs, why be constrained to watch it at that pre-specified time? |
| [08:35:55] | davey486: | One more question before i head to bed, do they make something usb i could use as a tuner? I only have one slot left and if i want to add 2 that would be a problem |
| [08:36:09] | wagnerrp: | i.e. record all the new primetime shows for a couple weeks, wait for reviews to come out and decide which ones you actually want to watch |
| [08:36:23] | wagnerrp: | continue recording those, delete the rest, and watch then whenever you feel like it |
| [08:36:36] | wagnerrp: | or even wait until the end of the season, and watch the whole thing in one shot |
| [08:36:38] | dekarl-too: | davey486: why not put a dual tuner card into the slot? |
| [08:36:48] | wagnerrp: | !url tuners |
| [08:36:49] | MythLogBot: | tuners: http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hardwar . . . _Information |
| [08:37:11] | davey486: | they make that? sounds like what ii need |
| [08:37:15] | wagnerrp: | davey486: what do you intend to record, your input source makes a big difference on what to buy |
| [08:37:41] | davey486: | cable tv, or from the antenna |
| [08:38:06] | wagnerrp: | antenna is easy, get an ATSC tuner... cable is a bit more complicated |
| [08:38:11] | wagnerrp: | analog or digital? |
| [08:38:23] | Blaksmith: | WOOT .. I think I got it .. program guide shows the 2 channels I added with the proper programming |
| [08:39:07] | davey486: | I don't have a digital subscription but it needs the cable box to descrable the picture |
| [08:39:32] | wagnerrp: | descramble... meaning the premium channels? |
| [08:39:35] | davey486: | descramble |
| [08:39:47] | wagnerrp: | im surprised anyone actually broadcasts the premiums over analog these days |
| [08:39:58] | davey486: | no, if i don't have a cable box, i can't watch anything, its snow |
| [08:40:04] | Blaksmith: | thanks for all your help wagnerrp |
| [08:40:17] | wagnerrp: | you mean theyre digital |
| [08:40:18] | Blaksmith: | now it's just a matter of finding the other channels hehe |
| [08:40:28] | wagnerrp: | digital != scrambled |
| [08:41:28] | wagnerrp: | davey486: are you talking about those little "miniboxes"? |
| [08:41:49] | davey486: | My cable company offers standard and digital, digital comes with alot of HD channels and standard doesn't but I have to have the boxfor both |
| [08:42:18] | wagnerrp: | a full cable box? or a small little thing a couple inches on a side? |
| [08:42:50] | davey486: | I'm not sure what the difference is i have never had a digital subscription |
| [08:43:22] | davey486: | but 6 x 2 approx.? |
| [08:43:25] | wagnerrp: | a full cable box will be about a foot wide, and give all sorts of fancy UIs |
| [08:43:45] | davey486: | no, nothing like that |
| [08:44:02] | wagnerrp: | the minibox will just be a few inches square, fairly thin, only have a single RF video output |
| [08:44:21] | davey486: | that sounds more like it |
| [08:44:37] | wagnerrp: | thats called a minibox |
| [08:44:47] | wagnerrp: | its what they give you to tune the digital channels when they phase out analog |
| [08:45:18] | wagnerrp: | except its only capable of standard definition, and only a limited "privacy mode" rather than the full modular cablecard encryption |
| [08:45:28] | wagnerrp: | which is technically illegal to use, so they get waivers forit |
| [08:45:47] | wagnerrp: | !url – list |
| [08:45:48] | MythLogBot: | analoghw currentrelease deleteme(disabled) devrelease digitalhw down faq fixesrelease google linuxtv lmgtfy log logs overscan pastebin recordingcable theming tuners upnp vdpau wiki |
| [08:45:53] | wagnerrp: | !url recordingcable |
| [08:45:53] | MythLogBot: | recordingcable: http://mythtv.org/wiki/Recording_Digital_Cable |
| [08:45:57] | wagnerrp: | see that link |
| [08:46:56] | davey486: | k bookmarked both of those links you gave me, I'm headed to bed, thanks for helping a lost soul find his way |
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| [11:05:51] | EvilGuru: | Do any UK users know if it is possible/likely that there will be a second HD multiplex in the future? |
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| [11:12:41] | Roklobsta: | 2nd on what? BBC? |
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| [11:13:25] | Roklobsta: | how is a typical UK DVB multiplex allocated? |
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| [11:14:41] | EvilGuru: | Roklobsta: Currently six multiplexes, one DVB-T2 the rest DVB-T |
| [11:14:56] | EvilGuru: | I am wondering if it is possible that another will be switched over in the future to DVB-T2 |
| [11:15:09] | Roklobsta: | is DVB-T2 h264? |
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| [11:30:51] | Seeker`: | isnt DVB-T2 mpeg4? |
| [11:37:01] | Seeker`: | EvilGuru: the qustion is, what channels would they put on the new multiplex? |
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| [11:39:04] | EvilGuru: | Only one or two at the moment, but in five years or so.... |
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| [11:40:03] | Seeker`: | in the far far distant future they will probably all be DVB-T2 |
| [11:40:45] | EvilGuru: | Given the fuss getting people to DVB-T here I can see that being a good 10–15 years away |
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| [11:40:56] | Seeker`: | yes |
| [11:41:53] | Seeker`: | but AIUI it is expensive to switch to broadcasting HD content |
| [11:42:10] | Seeker`: | And most of the channels have contracts with Sky already for a lot of HD stuff |
| [11:42:18] | EvilGuru: | Yeah, that appears to be the problem |
| [11:42:27] | EvilGuru: | As most channels do have HD variants, just on sky |
| [11:43:03] | Seeker`: | thats why freesat doesn't have ITV2–4 HD, or E4/More4/Film4 HD, or Dave/Yessterday |
| [11:44:10] | EvilGuru: | Film4 HD would be nice, although I questionn the amount of upscaling on the others |
| [11:44:28] | Seeker`: | Doesn't matter |
| [11:44:50] | Seeker`: | Their upscaler should be far higher quality than what you get in a TV, or in MythTV |
| [11:44:58] | EvilGuru: | Unlikely :) |
| [11:45:10] | Seeker`: | you really think so? |
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| [11:45:47] | EvilGuru: | Upscaling is computationally hard |
| [11:46:08] | EvilGuru: | But nvidia and ati have put a lot of work into their hardware decoding voodoo |
| [11:46:20] | Seeker`: | so therefore it is impossible to have a higher quality than in your home PC / TV |
| [11:46:23] | Seeker`: | hah |
| [11:46:54] | EvilGuru: | even TVs are not bad, a friend has a stupidly expensive upscaling DVD player |
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| [11:47:30] | EvilGuru: | and while it was neat a few years back it is not that much nicer, at a distance, than his new TV and a component DVD player |
| [11:47:57] | Seeker`: | but the point is that for the broadcasters, a 'stupidly expensive' piece of consumer hardware isn't close to commercial hardware |
| [11:48:29] | EvilGuru: | I really doubt that the algorithms are any different |
| [11:48:40] | EvilGuru: | and computation is no longer a limiting factor |
| [11:52:28] | Seeker`: | Upscaling certianly isn't a solved problem |
| [11:52:48] | Seeker`: | And I would not say that graphics cards / TV do a perfect job |
| [11:53:23] | EvilGuru: | I would agree, however, from a commercial standpoint it is |
| [11:53:35] | Seeker`: | huh? |
| [11:53:53] | EvilGuru: | Someone has to develop better/improved algorithms/heuristics for upscaling |
| [11:54:20] | EvilGuru: | And given the quality of current upscalers it is hard to justify the expense considering the potential returns |
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| [11:55:21] | Seeker`: | There are algorithms that do a better job than TVs and graphics cards. And products which use those algorithms. Which is what the broadcasters buy, and upscale at their end for HDTV. Which is better than upscaling it at our end. |
| [11:56:05] | EvilGuru: | I am not convinced that there are such algorithms that are perceptually better |
| [11:56:29] | Seeker`: | I am |
| [11:57:21] | EvilGuru: | If you owned IP for such an algorithm — and it was indeed better — you would be trying to sell such IP |
| [11:57:54] | Seeker`: | People are trying to sell such IP |
| [11:58:05] | Seeker`: | http://www.snellgroup.com/ them for one |
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| [12:02:11] | EvilGuru: | A USPO such is unremarkable at best |
| [12:02:21] | Seeker`: | what? |
| [12:02:26] | EvilGuru: | US patent office |
| [12:02:45] | EvilGuru: | A few processing related patents but nothing that jumps out of the page |
| [12:05:26] | Seeker`: | their latest stuff might not appear in searches |
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| [12:10:46] | Seeker`: | but I'm not sure what makes you an expert in how good a scaling algorithm is based on a patent abstract |
| [12:11:05] | dekarl-too: | and here I thought upscaling at the headend is better not because of a better signal but because of less noise which improves the signal/noise, too |
| [12:13:37] | Seeker`: | dekarl-too: I imagine that isnt such an issue with digital transmission, where the reconstructed signal tends to look either perfect or unwatchable |
| [12:15:00] | dekarl-too: | After having looked at the quality of the realtime mpeg2 encoding that is in use I disagree with that. Compare that to not-good-either MPEG4 in HD. its always going to be better then the mpeg2 sd signal |
| [12:15:26] | dekarl-too: | just because its a bit-perfect transmission doesnt mean that the encoding is any good |
| [12:15:50] | Seeker`: | dekarl-too: yes, doing it before it is encoded like that would be beneficial |
| [12:16:20] | Seeker`: | plus they aren't constrained by a requirement to carry out the upscaling in real time |
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| [14:00:25] | J-e-f-f-A: | what the heck? This is the 3rd time in 2 weeks I've had failed recordings because both of my FiOS HD boxes were OFF... Did Verizon change something???? |
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| [15:06:14] | sceo: | I have an HD-PVR and I made a successful recording with it last night after a fresh install of mythbuntu 11.10. I have it connected to the master backend/frontend combo machine, and I have a frontend-only machine in the bedroom. When I play the recording on the frontend-only machine, I have audio... no audio when I play it back on the master backend machine. Again, these are both clean installs. Am I missing something? What logs can |
| [15:11:52] | Seeker`: | Is there a way of viewing the weights used to make up the rec priority of a program? |
| [15:12:39] | sceo: | Seeker` in addition to the "priorities" themselves? I always look at the "recording schedules" in mythweb and it shows me the priorities I've set. |
| [15:14:07] | Seeker`: | I have 2 rules, both newly created, no priority assigned within the rule itself, one comes out as '1', the other as '3' |
| [15:14:40] | sceo: | I'm not familiar with rules, sorry. Must be something new.(?) |
| [15:15:10] | Seeker`: | The 3 is because I've given HD a priority of +3, but the other program also has a HD showing, but I'm not sure where it loses the 2 points from |
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| [15:53:36] | sphery: | Seeker`: mythfrontend Manage Recordings|Set Priorities |
| [15:53:47] | sphery: | shows rule priority and all modifiying priorities |
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| [16:22:32] | helptranscode: | Hello, I need some help with a MasterBackend / SlaveBackend HandBrakeCLI script |
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| [16:22:47] | helptranscode: | I can get the script to work on the masterbackend, but not the slave |
| [16:22:56] | wagnerrp: | slave backend is a bit more tricky |
| [16:23:02] | helptranscode: | I think it has to do with storage groups but I dont quite know |
| [16:23:26] | wagnerrp: | user jobs are defined globally, but the checkbox as to whether they are enabled is local |
| [16:23:38] | wagnerrp: | you need to run mythtv-setup on the slave backend to enable it |
| [16:24:11] | wagnerrp: | additionally, you must mount the storage content in exactly the same place it exists on the other machine, using NFS |
| [16:24:11] | helptranscode: | I have that setup properly, I setup the user job on the main backend, and the slave backend sees the job |
| [16:24:23] | helptranscode: | The NFS part I think is whats missing |
| [16:24:26] | wagnerrp: | it must be available on the local file system |
| [16:24:32] | wagnerrp: | it will not stream from the remote backend |
| [16:24:45] | wagnerrp: | this slave backend... it actually has tuners and storage of its own? |
| [16:25:17] | helptranscode: | The slave backend has no tuners, but a much higher end cpu |
| [16:25:24] | helptranscode: | its my frontend |
| [16:25:29] | wagnerrp: | then dont run a slave backend |
| [16:25:34] | wagnerrp: | run mythjobqueue |
| [16:28:00] | helptranscode: | Let me see if I understand though |
| [16:28:14] | helptranscode: | When I transcode, I want the original recordings replaced with the transcoded one |
| [16:28:19] | helptranscode: | in the mythtv database |
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| [16:28:51] | helptranscode: | So i have to mount /var/lib/mythtv/recordings from the master onto a local directory of the remote system? |
| [16:29:25] | helptranscode: | This is the script: http://pastebin.com/DjPtLwjb |
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| [16:30:50] | wagnerrp: | yes |
| [16:31:20] | wagnerrp: | the content must be in a readable and writable mount in the same path as it exists on the recording host |
| [16:31:51] | wagnerrp: | thas not much of a script |
| [16:31:58] | helptranscode: | yeah i see it got cut off hang on |
| [16:32:41] | helptranscode: | http://pastebin.com/gjPgCDzx |
| [16:33:53] | helptranscode: | the script requires a working directory |
| [16:34:19] | helptranscode: | Would that have to be located on the masterbackend, and mounted on the slave? |
| [16:35:00] | wagnerrp: | that '--gencutlist' you did there? dont do that |
| [16:35:50] | wagnerrp: | second, when you run mythtranscode to cut commercials, it automatically rebuilds the seek tables |
| [16:35:59] | wagnerrp: | there is no reason to run mythcommflag afterwards to do so |
| [16:36:35] | wagnerrp: | and there is DEFINITELY no reason to run it with the --file flag, which inserts the seek data into filemarkup rather than recordedseek... as it is designed for content in mythvideo, not recordings |
| [16:37:37] | wagnerrp: | third... dont much about in mysql in BASH |
| [16:37:54] | wagnerrp: | if youre going to do mysql, use a language with proper bindings |
| [16:38:02] | wagnerrp: | muck |
| [16:38:51] | wagnerrp: | fourth, dont go deleting recordings manually out from underneath mythtv anyway, use the backend protocol and tell the backend to delete it for you |
| [16:39:22] | wagnerrp: | which again means something other than bash, that has a proper socket library... and fiddling about with /dev/tcp or netcat doesnt cut it |
| [16:39:39] | helptranscode: | Originally I used a modified version of the transcode_stub.py which did all of the things you described |
| [16:39:59] | helptranscode: | However, it would stop working on recordings at 5:00, but show the recording was 30:00 |
| [16:40:09] | helptranscode: | I assumed this was because at the first commercial break, it dumped out |
| [16:40:29] | wagnerrp: | no, because it does not do anything with commercial breaks |
| [16:40:45] | helptranscode: | I changed the flush commskip to true |
| [16:41:12] | wagnerrp: | as i explained before, all that does is dump the commskip information out of the database, assuming it is invalid |
| [16:41:57] | wagnerrp: | as i also explained before, the reason it would stop working five minutes in is because the System() class in the 0.24 python bindings does not flush out the stdout pipe until the called program has terminated |
| [16:42:22] | wagnerrp: | and as a consequence, anything that generates more than 64KB of output will block permanently |
| [16:42:23] | helptranscode: | I did modify it to dump stdout to /dev/null |
| [16:42:32] | helptranscode: | and ran it with & as well |
| [16:42:35] | helptranscode: | did not help |
| [16:42:51] | wagnerrp: | if you ran it with '&', then you broke it |
| [16:43:14] | wagnerrp: | because it immediately detached, the wrapper stub assumed it completed, and finished |
| [16:43:20] | helptranscode: | ah |
| [16:43:57] | wagnerrp: | using '> /dev/null' to redirect all stdout to null should have worked, assuming there wasnt 64KB worth of material being sent to stderr as well |
| [16:44:37] | helptranscode: | I used >/dev/null 2>&1 |
| [16:45:11] | wagnerrp: | i believe that should work |
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| [16:49:21] | helptranscode: | ill retry it on the master backend and see what happens |
| [16:49:59] | wagnerrp: | note that if youre intending to record elsewhere, the wrapper stub really isnt for you |
| [16:50:09] | helptranscode: | If the transcode_stub.py does work, how can I get this to operate within mythjob queue? |
| [16:50:09] | wagnerrp: | s/record/transcode/ |
| [16:50:35] | wagnerrp: | as the whole bottom half is designed to fix things up such that it remained in the recording directory, replacing the existing recording |
| [16:51:50] | wagnerrp: | the only reason it could work when run manually, but not when run inside the jobqueue, is because of permissions |
| [16:52:27] | wagnerrp: | i know you said you used some application to run it as user 'mythtv' when testing it |
| [16:52:31] | wagnerrp: | what application was that? |
| [16:52:33] | helptranscode: | ok, I'll check, I believe I have the group for /var/lib/mythtv/recordings set for mythtv on both machines |
| [16:52:51] | helptranscode: | It was the script itself run with command line parameters, run as user mythtv |
| [16:52:57] | wagnerrp: | recording storage groups should only be defined on the master backend |
| [16:53:09] | helptranscode: | Instead of jobid, i used CHANID and STARTTIME |
| [16:53:19] | sphery: | haven't read all of scrollback, so ignore me if already covered, but why are you even transcoding? only real reason to do it is if you have a limited device on which you want to play back a video (as you can generally just cut commercials if you're trying to archive stuff--only exception being H.264 content, for which we have no cut capability) |
| [16:53:43] | wagnerrp: | looks like to get content on an ATV2 |
| [16:53:59] | sphery: | well, that's /definitely/ a limited device |
| [16:54:02] | helptranscode: | sphery here is my predicament, I want my recordings to remove commercials, my wife has an iphone4, my son has an ipad2 |
| [16:54:16] | sphery: | yeah, so those all qualify |
| [16:54:24] | helptranscode: | they are supposedly compatible with atv2 settings, and atv2 looks good enough on my tv |
| [16:54:25] | helptranscode: | too |
| [16:54:32] | sphery: | just making sure it's not for some useless reason, like "saving space" |
| [16:54:41] | helptranscode: | haha, i have a 2tb drive |
| [16:54:48] | helptranscode: | I just want playback on all devices |
| [16:55:11] | helptranscode: | and removal of commercials |
| [16:55:24] | tgm4883: | I'd like to verify this is a bug before opening a ticket. In master, when adding a storage group though the web setup, after adding the storage group you have to refresh the page before you see it listed. |
| [16:55:30] | helptranscode: | the childrens channel that my son watches has the same freaking commercials, over and over, I can practically recite them from memory |
| [16:55:54] | sphery: | tgm4883: or a "it's not finished yet"? |
| [16:56:07] | sphery: | haven't tried, though |
| [16:56:16] | wagnerrp: | helptranscode: as mentioned, you should not be using that --gencutlist option |
| [16:56:20] | tgm4883: | sphery, could be, but wouldn't that still be considered something a ticket should be opened on? |
| [16:56:21] | sphery: | I don't think even the SG section is considered finished, though |
| [16:56:29] | ** tgm4883 shrugs ** | |
| [16:56:32] | wagnerrp: | if you want to clip commercials, go into edit mode in mythfrontend, and define them manually |
| [16:56:37] | sphery: | at this point, it's very likely that we will disable HTTP setup for release |
| [16:56:44] | tgm4883: | your call, If you say no ticket then no ticket |
| [16:56:45] | wagnerrp: | the commercial flagger is not to be trusted for absolute accuracy |
| [16:56:48] | helptranscode: | I'm retrying the transcode_stub.py that doesnt use the cutlist |
| [16:56:55] | tgm4883: | sphery, ah ok |
| [16:57:01] | sphery: | because a) we will not release with 2 different setup programs and b) we won't finish the HTTP setup before 0.25 |
| [16:57:16] | tgm4883: | it's in the release notes right now :( |
| [16:57:31] | tgm4883: | I know, WIP |
| [16:57:50] | sphery: | it may be worth asking iamlin doro and/or Capt ain_Mur doch if they want a ticket for it, but I'm sure it will be fixed before we release a version with HTTP setup |
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| [16:59:18] | tgm4883: | sphery, sounds good. on a different note, have you seen issues with mythcommflag on master? |
| [16:59:26] | sphery: | haven't run it on master |
| [16:59:30] | tgm4883: | ah |
| [16:59:53] | tgm4883: | seems to fail sometimes |
| [16:59:53] | sphery: | some users have said they're having problems, but I have a feeling that it's the normal, "mythcommflag dies when given less than perfect streams" |
| [17:00:03] | tgm4883: | probably |
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| [17:00:40] | sphery: | i.e. the mythcommflag player is far less aggressive about recovering after failures than the player in the frontend |
| [17:00:55] | sphery: | (well, it's the same player, but different code doing the playback) |
| [17:01:42] | tgm4883: | unknown decoding error's |
| [17:01:43] | sphery: | I know of at least 3 devs who are using master for production systems and whose commercial flagging seems to be working as well as ever |
| [17:01:48] | tgm4883: | hmm, very descriptive |
| [17:01:54] | sphery: | hehe |
| [17:02:08] | tgm4883: | it only seems to fail on stuff from my hdpvr |
| [17:02:12] | sphery: | ideally, though, if we had known decoding errors, they'd be handled, already :) |
| [17:02:50] | tgm4883: | yea |
| [17:03:04] | sphery: | I think Bei rdo is still using his HD-PVR (and he runs master in production), so might want to ask him if he's seen issues |
| [17:03:13] | tgm4883: | so what goes into debugging a mythcommflag error? I assume you want more than just these logs |
| [17:03:14] | sphery: | (he's also likely the one who would look into it, anyway) |
| [17:04:08] | sphery: | generally we'd need logs with -v playback and likely debug loglevel... possibly other verbose areas, too |
| [17:04:36] | sphery: | but talk with Bei rdo first... |
| [17:05:51] | tgm4883: | Beirdo, have you seen issues with commflagging hdpvr recordings on master? |
| [17:08:10] | wagnerrp: | helptranscode: as mentioned, if you dont intend to transcode these recordings "in place", dont bother with that wrapper stub |
| [17:08:23] | wagnerrp: | to be honest, you dont even need a script at all |
| [17:08:51] | wagnerrp: | just use %DIR% and %FILE%, and call handbrakecli directly |
| [17:09:32] | sphery: | +1 |
| [17:10:17] | sphery: | and can put transcoded copies in mythvideo or something, if you want--then just have a script to find the ones that have since been deleted from recordings or video to tell you to delete (or to just automatically delete) the other |
| [17:10:38] | wagnerrp: | make your user job... HandBrakeCLI -i "%DIR%/%FILE%" -o "/home/mythtv/workdir/%TITLE% – %PROGSTARTISO%.mp4" -f m4v --preset="AppleTV 2" |
| [17:11:15] | wagnerrp: | and do your initial commercial clipping manually ahead of time |
| [17:11:37] | helptranscode: | Ok, that sounds more like what I need |
| [17:13:00] | helptranscode: | But without the database keeping track wont I lose all the meta info for each show? |
| [17:13:09] | helptranscode: | like the show description? |
| [17:14:36] | helptranscode: | The transcode_stub.py I just ran, operated for a while, but terminated with a non-zero return, maybe its a poor recording |
| [17:18:19] | wagnerrp: | helptranscode: in your script, you deleted all the metadata for each show... and you did it manually in the database |
| [17:18:28] | wagnerrp: | i figured thats what you wanted |
| [17:18:50] | helptranscode: | ah, it was someone elses that i was modifying |
| [17:20:10] | wagnerrp: | would that someone else's happen to be on the wiki? or something posted to the mailing list? or just something online? |
| [17:21:30] | helptranscode: | here is the transcode_stub.py I was using: http://pastebin.com/jr5Di28q |
| [17:22:01] | helptranscode: | Unfortunately I don't know enough about scripting to write what I want to do |
| [17:22:22] | helptranscode: | Im giving up on that other bash script from earlier since it does too many things the wrong way |
| [17:22:42] | wagnerrp: | so you do want to replace the original recording, with this transcoded copy designed for a reduced capability ATV2? |
| [17:22:47] | helptranscode: | yes |
| [17:22:54] | helptranscode: | my tv only does 720p anyway |
| [17:23:12] | helptranscode: | the ATV2 setting works and is acceptable enough |
| [17:23:20] | helptranscode: | and it works on the mobile devices |
| [17:24:38] | helptranscode: | maybe it would be simpler to have user job #1 do commflag, user job #2 use mythtranscode with --mpeg2 and --honorcutlist to get a recording without commercials into the database first, then worry about transcoding? |
| [17:25:32] | wagnerrp: | mythcommflag and mythtranscode already have their own slots in the jobqueue |
| [17:25:41] | wagnerrp: | they dont need to use up a user job slot |
| [17:25:49] | helptranscode: | ah, thats right |
| [17:25:51] | wagnerrp: | commflagging can be done automatically at the end of recording |
| [17:26:05] | wagnerrp: | transcoding, you just need to set up a profile to be 'lossless' |
| [17:26:46] | helptranscode: | in that profile I still have to including the --honorcutlist though? I dont really want to make a manual cutlist though, I can live with what commskip does |
| [17:27:07] | helptranscode: | does commskip make a cutlist or is that a skiplist and something totally different? |
| [17:27:31] | wagnerrp: | mythcommflag makes a skip list |
| [17:27:40] | wagnerrp: | which is a best guess at where it thinks the commercial breaks are |
| [17:27:52] | helptranscode: | it does a very good job for me |
| [17:27:55] | wagnerrp: | when you do --gencutlist, you are copying that inaccurate, best guess into a cutlist |
| [17:28:18] | helptranscode: | so I would need to modify the command for mythcommflag to including --gencutlist |
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| [17:28:31] | helptranscode: | then use the --honorcutlist in mythtranscode? |
| [17:29:13] | wagnerrp: | you shouldnt do anything to mythtranscode, since that can all be done internally, with the proper changes to a transcoding profile |
| [17:29:42] | helptranscode: | ok |
| [17:30:09] | wagnerrp: | as for --gencutlist, you can modify the commflagging executable, but when you do so, you have to define the full command line argument |
| [17:30:31] | wagnerrp: | listing 'mythcommflag' there is a "special" word, that automatically populates all the necessary arguments to run |
| [17:30:50] | wagnerrp: | and i would highly recommend against it |
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| [17:31:17] | wagnerrp: | go into edit mode, hit 'z' to load the skiplist, and then just briefly cycle through the cutpoints to confirm them |
| [17:31:23] | helptranscode: | I can live with the errors though, Ive watched many shows and the commflagger works well for me |
| [17:31:32] | helptranscode: | ok |
| [17:31:33] | wagnerrp: | if they are as accurate as you say, it should take 15–20 seconds |
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| [17:38:38] | skd5aner: | sphery: you mind replying to this thread on my behalf stating that I've been working on this for a while and might have something better than the wiki available sometime after 0.25 is out |
| [17:38:43] | skd5aner: | sphery: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/501649 |
| [17:39:51] | skd5aner: | I don't log into that email account that often and don't really care to enough, but it might be worth pointing out that someone is looking at it with the backing of several devs |
| [17:40:12] | skd5aner: | (as in, me) |
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| [18:02:47] | sphery: | skd5aner: done. thanks for the motivation (been putting off replying to that one) :) |
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| [18:06:22] | lis0r: | um, is activating signal monitor meant to kill any actual picture reception? |
| [18:06:54] | wagnerrp: | i remember hearing something along those lines |
| [18:07:23] | ** lis0r sees a couple of boxes pop up on screen, one at the top with the title and time, one at the bottom with the signal %, S/N ratio, "BE" and "(TL) Lock" ** | |
| [18:07:34] | wagnerrp: | oh, that signal monitor |
| [18:07:49] | ** lis0r was kinda hoping for more details, but oh well ** | |
| [18:08:02] | wagnerrp: | the only time the "letters" show up is when mythtv is trying to achieve a channel lock |
| [18:08:26] | wagnerrp: | http://mythtv.org/wiki/Channel_tuning |
| [18:08:50] | lis0r: | this is the signal monitor I get when I press alt-f7? |
| [18:09:22] | wagnerrp: | no, those are the standard tuning indicator |
| [18:09:25] | wagnerrp: | "TL" and stuff |
| [18:09:40] | lis0r: | well, that's all that appears when I hit Alt-F7 :/ |
| [18:09:47] | wagnerrp: | the alt-f7 thing is for most intents and purposes, meaningless |
| [18:10:02] | lis0r: | helpful *rolleyes* |
| [18:10:19] | wagnerrp: | it relies on accurate information coming from the tuner frontends, and information that is consistent between different drivers |
| [18:10:26] | ** lis0r was hoping to see reports of decode errors, etc. ** | |
| [18:10:29] | wagnerrp: | and that simply isnt available |
| [18:10:52] | sphery: | yes, the picture is no longer updated when the signal monitor is active |
| [18:10:59] | sphery: | only the signal monitor OSD is updated |
| [18:11:05] | wagnerrp: | are you trying to align a direction antenna or something? |
| [18:11:26] | lis0r: | no, I'm trying to determine if picture breakup is due to bad reception or insufficient network bandwidth |
| [18:11:36] | wagnerrp: | what network? |
| [18:11:48] | sphery: | and, yeah, signal monitor is mostly useless unless you know which of the information is useful from your particular card (as most just give garbage) |
| [18:11:52] | lis0r: | powerline ethernet doobries |
| [18:12:27] | wagnerrp: | are you trying to record to storage on the network or from a network attached tuner? or is this just pulling recordings from the backend over this network? |
| [18:12:30] | sphery: | best bet is to use your TV's or STB's built-in signal-monitoring/antenna-aiming/satellite-adjusting interface |
| [18:12:33] | lis0r: | don't really want to have to drill a hole through the ceiling for ethernet unless I know that's the problem |
| [18:13:11] | lis0r: | I have 6 tuners in a monster of a server upstairs in my study |
| [18:13:15] | wagnerrp: | the former may very well cause garbage in the recording as you lose data |
| [18:13:18] | lis0r: | then a little atom frontend in the lounge |
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| [18:13:26] | wagnerrp: | the latter will just cause pauses and stuttering during playback |
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| [18:13:58] | wagnerrp: | the server is recording to local storage, correct? |
| [18:14:01] | lis0r: | trying to watch live television |
| [18:14:06] | lis0r: | it looks like it's losing macro blocks |
| [18:14:32] | lis0r: | yes, the server streams livetv to a non-raided single hdd |
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| [18:14:39] | wagnerrp: | mythtv communicates over TCP, it doesnt "lose blocks" during playback |
| [18:14:54] | wagnerrp: | at most, it will give up waiting on data, and either skip frames, or outright terminate playback |
| [18:15:08] | lis0r: | hmm, must be a bad signal then |
| [18:15:34] | sphery: | "streams livetv to a non-raided single hdd"? streams over the network or writes to a local HDD on the backend? |
| [18:15:40] | wagnerrp: | the only way you would lose blocks would be if you were trying to record from something like an HDHomeRun over such a network, or if you were running out of disk IO and truncated data |
| [18:16:07] | wagnerrp: | six simultaneous recordings to a single hard drive could cause disk IO troubles |
| [18:16:13] | wagnerrp: | especially if it is heavily fragmented |
| [18:16:30] | sphery: | also, if you're using vdpau decode, might want to switch to ffmpeg decode and vdpau render to see if it plays better--ffmpeg is more resilient to errors in the stream |
| [18:16:43] | lis0r: | sphery: there's a configuration thing to say where to save livetv, which is set to a local harddrive |
| [18:16:57] | lis0r: | sphery: ah, I'll have to try that |
| [18:17:46] | wagnerrp: | lis0r: considering this is an Atom, thats likely only going to work for standard definition content |
| [18:17:50] | sphery: | ok, just wanted to make sure that you weren't saying it's writing to an NFS share that mounts a file system that's local to the frontend that's playing (as that would be writing to a remote system) |
| [18:18:25] | wagnerrp: | simple solution, find some other computer with enough power for software decoding, connect it via hardline to the server, and try to play those files |
| [18:18:31] | wagnerrp: | see if they are good |
| [18:18:32] | lis0r: | wagnerrp: that's ok, my tuners can only receive SD anyway |
| [18:18:46] | lis0r: | is there a profile that use ffmpeg+vdpau? |
| [18:18:47] | wagnerrp: | if they are good? then its a network and/or playback issue |
| [18:18:54] | wagnerrp: | if they are bad, then its a tuning issue |
| [18:19:17] | wagnerrp: | lis0r: your local broadcasters only transmit SD digital content? or you have analog tuners? |
| [18:20:43] | lis0r: | wagnerrp: my local broadcaster use modulations that my tuner cards can't handle for their HD multiplexes |
| [18:21:07] | wagnerrp: | meaning... -T vs. -T2? |
| [18:22:11] | wagnerrp: | yeah, i would say just put some machine on a hardline to the backend to test the recordings |
| [18:22:30] | wagnerrp: | or just copy the files onto the Atoms hard drive (or a flash drive if it doesnt have one), and use mythavtest |
| [18:22:52] | wagnerrp: | play the files over some mechanism that youre sure has enough bandwidth, to take the network out of the equation |
| [18:22:55] | lis0r: | yeah – 26-QAM, iirc |
| [18:23:33] | wagnerrp: | and if they still have problems on that Atom, try with the standard decoder, or try on another machine with a proper CPU |
| [18:23:35] | lis0r: | 256, even |
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| [18:26:09] | simcop2387: | Anyone testing 0.25 right now, and know how well the vaapi support works? |
| [18:26:47] | lis0r: | hmm, twiddling it to ffmpeg seems to have made a lot of the strangeness go away – I will debug it properly when I'm less tired |
| [18:27:09] | sphery: | simcop2387: I hear it works best on nvidia hardware with nvidia drivers...but if you have nvidia, you don't need vaapi |
| [18:27:19] | sphery: | I /highly/ recommend nvidia GPU + drivers |
| [18:27:42] | sphery: | (and the problem here isn't mythtv's support for vaapi, but amd/intel's support for vaapi) |
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| [18:29:54] | simcop2387: | sphery: yea that's what i figured. i've got a system with an on board amd card that'd suffice perfectly for mythtv if it weren't for that |
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| [18:30:15] | simcop2387: | so i've got an nvidia card in there, love to be able to pull it out and use less power |
| [18:30:25] | simcop2387: | or likely less anyway |
| [18:30:51] | sphery: | simcop2387: which onboard amd card? you mean a fusion cpu or a real cpu that has an amd chipset with amd gpu? |
| [18:31:04] | simcop2387: | real cpu and amd chipset with amd gpu |
| [18:31:13] | simcop2387: | forget which one it's been disabled for so long... |
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| [18:31:48] | sphery: | you might be able to make it work OK with CPU-based decode and OpenGL or (if you must) Xv video rendering |
| [18:31:55] | sphery: | but I think you're actually much better off with the nvidia |
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| [18:32:56] | sphery: | note that if you have chosen wisely, your nvidia GPU is likely only using around 7–10W when idle (which equates to 88kWh/yr or less) |
| [18:33:04] | wagnerrp: | simcop2387: unless youre talking about a low end Fusion, any AMD system of an era that would support VAAPI is going to have plenty of power for mythtv's needs |
| [18:33:21] | sphery: | now if you bought the top-end gaming-style 225W+ graphics card, you're likely using a lot of power, even at idle |
| [18:33:29] | lapion: | I got a fe machine to work with an ati agp card, with the current driver.. |
| [18:33:33] | wagnerrp: | while AMD is still highly recommended against in general, just because of unreliable drivers |
| [18:33:43] | wagnerrp: | lapion: there are no AGP cards that support VAAPI |
| [18:33:48] | lapion: | playing back video on a 1080p monitor.. |
| [18:33:51] | simcop2387: | nah it's a cheap Geforce 210 that I got a while ago because it had hdmi |
| [18:34:01] | sphery: | GF 210 should be around 9W idle |
| [18:34:20] | wagnerrp: | VAAPI starts with the Radeon 3000 series and up |
| [18:34:20] | sphery: | and, I /think/ when you disable the AMD GPU in the BIOS, it actually cuts power to it |
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| [18:34:32] | sphery: | (at least I've been hoping that's the case) |
| [18:34:45] | simcop2387: | sphery: i've hoped the same thing but i never trust anyone :) |
| [18:35:09] | sphery: | I should get out my kill-a-watt and see if I can see for sure one of these days |
| [18:36:22] | simcop2387: | any idea how the AMD Zacate systems (e-350 i think the cpu is called) do for vaapi? been looking at them to cut power down even lower (<30w total I hope) |
| [18:36:43] | lapion: | nope did not try vaapi.. it is however a recent agp...a cheap probably last production model.. |
| [18:36:54] | lapion: | last or finall..... |
| [18:37:04] | sphery: | simcop2387: however, even if it's not cutting power, I can't see the integrated GPU taking more than 10W (and would expect a lot less) if it's disabled in the BIOS... over a year's use at average US prices, that would be $10 for electricity |
| [18:37:12] | wagnerrp: | simcop2387: it all depends on whether you can actually get the AMD drivers running reliably |
| [18:37:39] | sphery: | simcop2387: big problem with the Fusion systems is that you have an integrated GPU and CPU with a relatively not useful GPU... |
| [18:38:08] | sphery: | and to keep the chips under some "standard" TDPs, they end up clocking the CPU cores lower |
| [18:38:48] | sphery: | so you actually pay more (and get a GPU you probably won't be able to use), get a slower CPU at a given TDP rating |
| [18:39:17] | sphery: | now I don't know how well it gates power to the GPU when you disable it (or how well it allows you to disable the GPU) |
| [18:39:49] | sphery: | but in general, I can't see it being better than an Athlon II + chipset with integrated GPU |
| [18:40:03] | sphery: | (oh, and I'd recommend against all the laptop Fusion parts as they're generally way too slow) |
| [18:40:21] | wagnerrp: | the bigger architectural problem with the Fusion systems is that they also drop the cache to half that of the Athlon IIs, with non of the Phenom's L3 to speak of |
| [18:40:22] | sphery: | which would include the E350/E400 |
| [18:40:46] | wagnerrp: | and then they crammed a grossly oversized GPU on there for the amount of memory throughput they have |
| [18:40:58] | wagnerrp: | that GPU is starved |
| [18:41:19] | sphery: | but, assuming you can find it (since they're out of production), a nice 65W dual-core Athlon II or--better--a 45W dual-core Athlon II "e" series chip would give you a nice CPU and low power usage |
| [18:41:21] | wagnerrp: | you can watch benchmarks increase linearly in performance as you overclock the memory bus |
| [18:41:32] | wagnerrp: | that just shouldnt happen |
| [18:42:08] | wagnerrp: | they should have chopped off about a quarter of the GPU, and replaced it with a nice big chunk of eDRAM |
| [18:42:43] | sphery: | (where the 65W or 45W is TDP--meaning maximums when at full load, and each chip actually uses different amounts, and chips generally use much less than TDP even at load, once they work out the kinks) |
| [18:42:44] | wagnerrp: | or added another one or two memory controllers |
| [18:43:14] | sphery: | edram? not gdram? |
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| [18:43:49] | sphery: | ah, embedded |
| [18:43:56] | wagnerrp: | edram... special form of dram suitable for combined manufacturing on processor dies |
| [18:44:09] | wagnerrp: | much higher latency than sram |
| [18:44:14] | wagnerrp: | (sram being cache) |
| [18:44:24] | sphery: | but cheaper for large quantities, presumably |
| [18:44:25] | wagnerrp: | but lower power consumption, and something like 6x the density |
| [18:44:59] | wagnerrp: | shove like 32–64MB of edram on the thing as a monstrous shared L3 |
| [18:45:16] | wagnerrp: | to make up for the insufficient memory bus |
| [18:46:19] | sphery: | FWIW, I consider the GPU in a fusion APU (or ceepeegeepee) to be equivalent to an integrated (non-discrete) graphics card that uses "shared ram"--i.e. good for business desktop usage and not something useful where video performance is required |
| [18:46:39] | sphery: | meaning I /hope/ AMD designed the chip to allow completely disabling the on-board GPU and gating all power to it |
| [18:48:53] | BLZbubba (BLZbubba!~mark@tpsit.com) has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) | |
| [18:49:08] | wagnerrp: | well look at their previous IGPs from the 3000 and 4000 series |
| [18:49:14] | sphery: | http://hothardware.com/Reviews/AMD-Fusion-A83 . . . -APU-Review/ mentions "GPU power gating of Radeon Cores and video decode (UVD3)" |
| [18:49:29] | wagnerrp: | youre looking at core configs like 40:4:4, at a ~500MHz clock |
| [18:49:59] | wagnerrp: | meanwhile, even the low end E350 has about double that power |
| [18:50:19] | wagnerrp: | while the high end A8s are running 400:20:8 at 600MHz |
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| [18:50:26] | sphery: | yeah, but as you said they don't have the required memory bandwidth to use the hardware |
| [18:50:36] | sphery: | so it's back down to something like you had with the IGPs |
| [18:50:43] | wagnerrp: | all on a dual channel, DDR3–1866 controller, capable of some 30GB/s |
| [18:51:19] | wagnerrp: | the same core config on a dedicated card with a higher clock rate runs 64GB/s |
| [18:51:26] | wagnerrp: | and it doesnt have to share that with the rest of the system |
| [18:52:01] | sphery: | yep, so regardless of cores/clock/... still just a desktop "entry-level" graphics solution |
| [18:52:02] | wagnerrp: | (just giving numbers to explain it) |
| [18:52:17] | wagnerrp: | right, its actually a fairly decent mid-range GPU |
| [18:52:28] | wagnerrp: | but too starved for memory to perform as such |
| [18:52:30] | simcop2387: | sphery: that's what i wondered about them with their gpus. |
| [18:52:32] | sphery: | yeah, and I'm sure in the future, they'll feed it the bandwidth they need |
| [18:52:48] | sphery: | (especially now that they've cut production of Athlon IIs) |
| [18:52:50] | wagnerrp: | but its like bulldozer, it seems somehow... halfassed |
| [18:53:22] | wagnerrp: | they had this nice idea for increasing performance by reducing unnecessary redundant parts |
| [18:53:36] | wagnerrp: | but then they didnt beef up those now non-redundant parts to handle the increased load |
| [18:53:46] | sphery: | well, either feed it the bandwidth they need or perish... the latter seeming more and more likely--especially as now Intel can hold up ARM as a competitor in the "monopoly" arguments |
| [18:54:06] | wagnerrp: | same exact thing intel originally tried to do with hyperthreading, made it do more without actually beefing it up enough to make it able to do more |
| [18:54:47] | sphery: | yeah, and in truth, intel still hasn't made hyper threading useful, so maybe I'm wrong to expect AMD to do the right thing eventually |
| [18:55:18] | wagnerrp: | its a lot more capable on the i7s than on the old p4s |
| [18:55:30] | sphery: | gotta say, though, that the per-core poewr gating on the fusion chips is pretty sweet |
| [18:55:34] | wagnerrp: | but just because they spent the past decade really pumping up their frontend to handle it |
| [18:55:55] | wagnerrp: | but then it all depends on the task youre performing whether you will see an advantage |
| [18:56:21] | simcop2387: | with my bulldozer using a different scheduler seems to make it do better performance wise, which is one of the things some people had speculated about when they came out. just like a hyperthreading aware one. |
| [18:56:47] | sphery: | (much prettier than nvidia's solution with their tegra 3--seems they couldn't get per-core power gating to work, so they instead put 5 cores on there, but as basically 2 separate CPUs... a single core CPU for "general" use, and when it needs more power, it shuts off the single-core CPU and switches to a quad-core CPU) |
| [18:56:56] | simcop2387: | normal every day stuff i see no difference but for emulating a gamecube game i go from 150% to 200% top speed |
| [18:57:03] | sphery: | that said, nvidia's solution is much cheaper--which is likely better for embedded systems |
| [18:57:40] | simcop2387: | that makes me wonder how much latency nvidia's can incur when it switches |
| [18:57:50] | wagnerrp: | sphery: its not like SMT is an inherently bad idea... |
| [18:58:14] | wagnerrp: | i mean IBM ran two concurrent threads in their POWER5 and POWER6 |
| [18:58:15] | sphery: | simcop2387: don't remember the numbers, but I remember thinking they looked good when I was reading about tegra 3 |
| [18:58:30] | wagnerrp: | while the POWER7 and niagara chips both ran four concurrent threads per core |
| [18:58:35] | sphery: | wagnerrp: yeah, SMT is good... I just hate HT because Intel had to give it a trademarked name |
| [18:58:35] | Seeker`: | nvidia hasn't provided sensible numbers for tegra |
| [18:58:44] | wagnerrp: | oh |
| [18:59:11] | wagnerrp: | simcop2387: do you understand what that scheduler change did? |
| [18:59:12] | sphery: | and, really, like their Centrino stuff, it was all hype and very little actual tech |
| [18:59:18] | sphery: | i.e. hyped-up threading |
| [18:59:34] | Seeker`: | I remember the slide comparing tegra 3 CPU to a 6 year old intel chip, tegra using the latest GCC, intel using an ancient version |
| [18:59:37] | wagnerrp: | centrino was just a P-M with an integrated wireless chipset |
| [18:59:44] | simcop2387: | wagnerrp: mostly it kept things from trying to use the same integer unit at the same time |
| [18:59:53] | sphery: | no, just a P-M with an integrated /Intel/ wireless chipset |
| [19:00:00] | wagnerrp: | simcop2387: your bulldozer has four cores, each with one frontend and two integer units |
| [19:00:00] | sphery: | it was just a marketing ploy |
| [19:00:07] | sphery: | but it was a very successful one |
| [19:00:13] | sphery: | dollars to advertising worked |
| [19:00:18] | simcop2387: | wagnerrp: i could swear it was the other way around, 4 integer units 8 front ends |
| [19:00:19] | wagnerrp: | by default, windows would view each integer unit as an independent core, and load them up sequentially |
| [19:00:24] | sphery: | people thought you needed Centrino to have wireless |
| [19:00:43] | simcop2387: | ah no it is the other way around |
| [19:00:48] | wagnerrp: | meaning you were loading up both integer units on two modules, leaving the other half of the CPU unused |
| [19:01:11] | wagnerrp: | with the modified scheduler, it now loads up the modules sequentially |
| [19:01:24] | wagnerrp: | using one integer unit on each, before flowing over onto the second on each |
| [19:01:54] | wagnerrp: | the fact that you see significantly higher performance doing so means that the frontend is overloaded trying to run both integer units simultaneously |
| [19:02:04] | sphery: | seems I should go mow the alwn (though talking about tech is so much more fun)... :( |
| [19:02:10] | sphery: | lawn, that is |
| [19:02:33] | simcop2387: | all i know is that BFS seems to do a better job of doing that for me on most loads, up until i need to be doing 5 significant things at once, at which point it gets the same performance. |
| [19:03:18] | simcop2387: | locking things to certain cores has the same effect without bfs but is more annoying |
| [19:04:19] | wagnerrp: | the frontend and fpu are significantly improved from the old STARS core, so with the proper scheduler and four simultaneous tasks, it will perform better than a previous quad core |
| [19:04:54] | wagnerrp: | the problem is that on a lot of tasks, an old hex core will outperform the quad module bulldozer, due to shared resource contention |
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| [19:05:32] | simcop2387: | that and i believe the older 6 core phenoms also did do better single thread performance too |
| [19:07:38] | simcop2387: | i still wonder if letting people have access to the microcode and bypass the instruction decoder would make any difference performance wise (with a suitable compiler and everything) |
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| [19:29:28] | wagnerrp: | simcop2387: that depends... the bulldozer has significantly shorter stages, meaning a longer pipeline, and higher clock speed |
| [19:29:54] | wagnerrp: | in theory, the bulldozer should be significantly better in single threaded performance than the STARS due to the clock speed |
| [19:30:14] | wagnerrp: | but again, that depends on the branch predictors in the frontend being robust enough to keep that long pipeline filled |
| [19:30:30] | wagnerrp: | its the same problem that plagued the netburst/P4 |
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| [19:31:12] | simcop2387: | yea, it seems like the compilers might be providing some better hints lately too. playing with some synthetic benchmarks and gcc 4.7 it seems to do better that way |
| [19:31:28] | wagnerrp: | there was a saying about the old P4... it was the fastest processor available for any task that fit in its cache |
| [19:31:35] | simcop2387: | heh |
| [19:32:25] | wagnerrp: | once branch prediction failures cause you to leave the cache, you stall that pipeline waiting for new data to feed into it, and the whole thing falls apart |
| [19:32:49] | simcop2387: | I honestly think the cache is one of the biggest reasons that i saw such a huge speed up from my old Athlon X2, I went from such a small amount (like 128kb l2 per core i think it was) to 1MB l2 per core |
| [19:33:34] | wagnerrp: | 128kb of l2? were you coming from some celeron? |
| [19:33:59] | wagnerrp: | oh, from your athlon x2, not to... |
| [19:34:16] | wagnerrp: | no, the athlon64s all had at minimum 512kb of cache per core |
| [19:34:30] | simcop2387: | hmm |
| [19:34:31] | wagnerrp: | plus 128kb of L1 |
| [19:34:39] | simcop2387: | that must be why i was thinking 128k |
| [19:34:44] | simcop2387: | been a little while |
| [19:34:56] | wagnerrp: | split in half, between data and instructions |
| [19:35:55] | simcop2387: | all i know is that it flies compared to what i had before :) |
| [19:36:15] | simcop2387: | it was one of the first generation dual core amd's i believe either that or very early second generation |
| [19:36:25] | wagnerrp: | thats because an AthX2 was likely running in the mid 2GHz range |
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| [19:37:11] | wagnerrp: | so youve got from a dual core 2.x GHz chip, to something halfway between 4 and 8 cores, running in the high 3GHz range |
| [19:37:12] | simcop2387: | yea 2.4 i think was the highest it would go |
| [19:37:17] | simcop2387: | yep |
| [19:37:43] | wagnerrp: | with gobs more cache, and twice the memory channels, each capable of twice the throughput as the old chip |
| [19:39:04] | simcop2387: | yep |
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| [20:23:00] | al_nz1: | Is there a howto for Ubuntu somewhere? |
| [20:23:24] | wagnerrp: | im sure mythbuntu has one |
| [20:24:04] | tgm4883: | you mean like this http://www.mythbuntu.org/wiki/installation-guide |
| [20:24:16] | wagnerrp: | that would probably do |
| [20:25:05] | al_nz1: | wagnerrp: but wont that apply only to the "pre-rolled" install of mythbuntu? I have ubuntu and want to add mythtv – isnt this different? |
| [20:25:15] | tgm4883: | ah |
| [20:25:15] | wagnerrp: | no, not really |
| [20:25:30] | wagnerrp: | youre going to have slightly different package layouts |
| [20:25:31] | tgm4883: | you probably want that guide, and this http://mythbuntu.org/download-type |
| [20:25:37] | wagnerrp: | and be using unity rather than xfce |
| [20:25:39] | wagnerrp: | but thats about it |
| [20:26:03] | al_nz1: | unity and xfce – they are todo with desktop layout right? |
| [20:26:12] | wagnerrp: | yes |
| [20:27:27] | al_nz1: | wagnerrp: how do I get back to unity? I have the desktop in 11.10 anyway |
| [20:27:52] | wagnerrp: | get back to it? im betting you just have to close mythfrontend |
| [20:28:52] | al_nz1: | wagnerrp: havent installed myth yet |
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| [20:29:22] | wagnerrp: | then im not sure what your question is |
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| [20:32:36] | al_nz1: | so which packages do I need on my "server" if I just want to watch live tv from my tv card, and record shows? I am picking "mythtv" and mythtv-backend or should it be mythtv-backend-master? and mythtv-database |
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| [20:33:38] | wagnerrp: | that you would likely want to check the links tgm gave |
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| [20:34:04] | wagnerrp: | mythbuntu breaks the mythtv core up into a bunch of smaller packages, independent from what the build scripts are supposed to do |
| [20:34:49] | tgm4883: | minimally, you would need a master backend and a frontend |
| [20:34:57] | tgm4883: | that should pull in the database stuff as well |
| [20:35:17] | wagnerrp: | when you say "server", does that mean its intended to be headless? |
| [20:35:22] | wagnerrp: | playback will occur elsewhere? |
| [20:44:43] | al_nz1: | tgm4883: so, in mythtv parlance, is a tv a front end? |
| [20:46:19] | wagnerrp: | in mythtv parlance, a PC running mythfrontend is a front end |
| [20:46:43] | wagnerrp: | while a PC running mythbackend, with one or more tuner cards, and local or network attached storage, is a back end |
| [20:47:07] | wagnerrp: | you can run these on the same machine, you can run these on separate machines, you can have multiples of each working cooperatively |
| [20:47:14] | wagnerrp: | http://mythtv.org/wiki/Executive_Overview |
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| [21:04:09] | autojack: | where's the "hide mouse cursor" option in 0.24? I can't find it. |
| [21:06:41] | sphery: | always on |
| [21:06:53] | autojack: | oh I found it, it was right in front of me |
| [21:06:57] | autojack: | didn't even see those check boxes. |
| [21:07:03] | wagnerrp: | by default, you have to choose to enable the mouse cursor |
| [21:07:05] | sphery: | can't disable the hiding, but it automatically hides it when the mouse is not moving |
| [21:07:19] | sphery: | I thought stuartm removed the setting and made it smart? |
| [21:07:20] | wagnerrp: | it should be somewhere in appearances in the frontend setup |
| [21:07:22] | sphery: | maybe that was post 0.24 |
| [21:07:32] | wagnerrp: | smart? not that im aware of |
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| [21:07:53] | wagnerrp: | you mean it autohides after a few seconds if you dont use the mouse? |
| [21:07:57] | sphery: | yeah |
| [21:09:06] | sphery: | [27324] and [27325] |
| [21:09:06] | MythLogBot: | SVN 27324: (branch master) https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/5179b04a |
| [21:09:06] | MythLogBot: | SVN 27325: (branch master) https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/ba1f912e |
| [21:09:11] | sphery: | seems he did and undid the removal |
| [21:09:18] | ** wagnerrp suspects he has not managed to hook a prospective developer in the other channel ** | |
| [21:09:55] | sphery: | the desire for a $25 mythfrontend isn't strong enough, you say? |
| [21:10:08] | sphery: | "I want a $25 mfe, but I don't want to have to invest time to get it" |
| [21:11:05] | wagnerrp: | i think he would have to invest a lot of time to learn openmax/opengles(/c++/general_programming) in the first place |
| [21:11:10] | sphery: | you keep saying opengl es is only used on embedded systems, but your fellow distro users keep trying to prove you wrong... |
| [21:11:13] | sphery: | ;) |
| [21:12:55] | sphery: | speaking of which, I need to ask a friend of mine--who does embedded GL programming for a living (but not using GL ES, at least to say he's been doing this for longer than there's been a GL ES)--what his thoughts are on the "use opengl es on a desktop because it's a cleaner API" |
| [21:14:13] | wagnerrp: | probably the same thing one of my EE friends said about taking a standard ATX PSU, and splicing several connectors onto one to power multiple compute nodes in separate cases |
| [21:15:11] | sphery: | that cleaner is better? |
| [21:15:58] | Beirdo: | ahhh, Saturdays... waking up at the crack of 1pm |
| [21:16:04] | wagnerrp: | actually... yeah! |
| [21:16:45] | wagnerrp: | having high amperage 12V lines strung several feet across multiple cases is a recipe for disaster |
| [21:17:02] | sphery: | hehe |
| [21:17:54] | wagnerrp: | i would have loved to convert that system over to 48V and water cooling, and scrap our frankenstein AC unit for an water cooling into an evaporator |
| [21:17:59] | wagnerrp: | but that requires a budget and planning |
| [21:18:02] | wagnerrp: | we had neither |
| [21:18:06] | sphery: | and a flywheel! |
| [21:18:20] | wagnerrp: | meh, flywheel |
| [21:18:28] | sphery: | (thinking of other projects you had previously talked about) |
| [21:18:43] | wagnerrp: | cost too much to backup a several hundred kilowatt compute cluster |
| [21:19:05] | wagnerrp: | better to just have everything dump restart files every couple hours |
| [21:19:43] | wagnerrp: | why spend 40K in energy storage and generators just to save a couple hours of compute time |
| [21:34:09] | wagnerrp: | sphery: you know... i can understand why people might not want multiple systems running all the time... |
| [21:34:25] | wagnerrp: | but why wouldnt you want at least one system, always on, always serving whatever purposes you need? |
| [21:34:32] | sphery: | agreed |
| [21:35:36] | wagnerrp: | even before i ran mythtv, my fileserver was always running for web/mail/ftp/ssh/whathaveyou |
| [21:36:15] | wizbit: | why can i still see mythtv AV renderer on windows 7 when ive turned off upnp on the backend? |
| [21:36:20] | wagnerrp: | is that a function of wanting such services before "the cloud" was around to perform them otherwise? |
| [21:36:33] | wagnerrp: | wizbit: its detecting your frontend? |
| [21:36:40] | wizbit: | ohhhh |
| [21:36:48] | sphery: | wagnerrp: yeah, you must just be a dinosaur who doesn't get the cloud... |
| [21:36:49] | wizbit: | do they need to be started without upnp as well? |
| [21:37:11] | wagnerrp: | you cant really do anything with it, but it advertises itself none the less |
| [21:37:30] | wizbit: | wagnerrp: is there a way to stop the advertising |
| [21:37:38] | wagnerrp: | i dont believe there is an option to stop that |
| [21:37:44] | wizbit: | aye ok |
| [21:37:57] | sphery: | Though I tried running MythTV in the cloud--got a bunch of dry ice and fed it into a big tub of water above the computer--and the computer just broke. No clue why MythTV doesn't support running in the cloud. |
| [21:38:46] | dekarl-too: | sounds like the wrong kind of cloud ;) |
| [21:40:58] | wizbit: | name=wagnerrp; if [[ "$name" = "wagnerrp" ]]; then echo "hello fellow mythtv user"; fi; |
| [21:41:28] | wagnerrp: | huh? |
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| [21:42:27] | wizbit: | im just showing off new bash skillz :D |
| [21:42:56] | dekarl-too: | are you the one rewriting mythtv in bash? |
| [21:43:01] | sphery: | hehe |
| [21:43:15] | sphery: | mythvideo portion is done, just need the rest finished up |
| [21:43:29] | wizbit: | has mythmusic been re-written for .25 ? |
| [21:43:32] | ** wagnerrp is waiting for mythtv bindings in bash, that implement database and backend protocol access through persistent pipes set up with /dev/tcp ** | |
| [21:44:13] | dekarl-too: | sounds like a linuxism that won't work in my bash on vista? |
| [21:44:30] | wagnerrp: | probably |
| [21:44:57] | sphery: | but bash is platform independent, so it should work! |
| [21:45:03] | sphery: | don't go bashing bash |
| [21:45:04] | dekarl-too: | as long as I can have my money back after testing its ok |
| [21:45:56] | wagnerrp: | http://www.alge.no/projects/scripts/bairc-1.3.bash |
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| [22:18:15] | awalls (awalls!~awalls@d-72-9-3-220.cpe.metrocast.net) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [22:21:53] | wizbit: | If my future HD capable frontend uses a CPU core2duo 1.86GHz, and a Nvidia Geforce 210 + VDPAU, what that be enough power for usual bluray 1080p movies? I assume a core2duo 1.86GHz would much nicer to fall back to than a atom cpu? Do you think I should get a frontend what uses a core2duo 2.0GHz or above? Is 1.86GHz too much on the lower edge? |
| [22:23:12] | sphery: | C2D 1.86GHz is a nicer fallback than Atom, but still not powerful enough to decode high-bitrate H.264 (as you'd see on BluRay) |
| [22:23:46] | sphery: | you want something in the 2.6GHz+ range (for a C2D) to be able to handle most high-bitrate H.264 |
| [22:25:16] | wizbit: | i very much doubt i will ever fall back to the CPU for decoding? If my nvidia card packs up, ill just have to get another |
| [22:25:19] | sphery: | but chances are most BluRay content will be relatively clean and should be well handled by VDPAU (assuming the 210 is sufficient for VDPAU decoding of BluRay--I don't know my VDPAU feature sets or anything, but think it is with certain lower-resource settings) |
| [22:25:41] | wizbit: | C2D 1.86GHz should be enough grunt for HD television bandwidth? |
| [22:26:02] | simcop2387: | 210 should be fine with bluray itself. |
| [22:26:05] | sphery: | probably ok for HDTV MPEG-2 |
| [22:26:06] | wizbit: | sphery: the 210 is in the CLASS C range |
| [22:26:39] | simcop2387: | i've not had any problems with mine doing high bitrate stuff |
| [22:26:39] | sphery: | if you have HDTV H.264, though, the 1.86GHz is likely not even close to enough |
| [22:27:09] | sphery: | (lots of that is single-sliced content, IIRC, and, therefore, requires decoding on a single core, so requires extremely high frequency cores) |
| [22:27:37] | wizbit: | sphery: im in UK, im not sure what ITV and BBC use |
| [22:27:54] | [R] ([R]!~rbox@unaffiliated/rbox) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [22:28:07] | wizbit: | simcop2387: you have a 210? |
| [22:28:11] | sphery: | yeah, pretty sure you get single-sliced H.264 content |
| [22:28:39] | wizbit: | hopefully the geforce 210 should be able to handle that |
| [22:28:57] | wizbit: | if thats the case, im 1 step away to getting a new frontend :D |
| [22:29:18] | Seeker`: | wizbit: some of the stuff on freesat is showing up as h264 |
| [22:29:48] | wizbit: | Seeker`: what card are you using |
| [22:30:04] | Seeker`: | 430 |
| [22:30:18] | wizbit: | i gather thats a CLASS C card |
| [22:30:22] | simcop2387: | wizbit: yea in my main myth box, seems to work fine with everything i throw at it. mostly samples from blu-ray disks, i don't have a reader myself |
| [22:31:03] | wizbit: | ace :D |
| [22:31:21] | simcop2387: | hdmi audio on it works great too, though it too me a minute to get it going since it doesn't want it on the first output but the second |
| [22:31:57] | simcop2387: | though that might be different if you get a different brand, etc. |
| [22:32:01] | wizbit: | double ace :D |
| [22:32:19] | Seeker`: | brand doesn't make a difference really, they are all copies oft he reference card |
| [22:32:40] | wizbit: | this is sitting in my cupboard: http://www.mobilx.hu/images/detailed/gf_gt_210_synergy-1.jpg |
| [22:32:42] | simcop2387: | i've seen them have different outputs sometimes |
| [22:34:02] | simcop2387: | mine wasn't fanless but neat to know that it can be if i find the right heatsink |
| [22:34:41] | jkfod (jkfod!~Greg_od@31.31.103.152) has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | |
| [22:35:42] | simcop2387: | wizbit: https://gist.github.com/61e5dde06817e15d1dc6 # that's what i had to put in my /etc/asound.conf to make everything happy |
| [22:35:53] | simcop2387: | i got the numbers from aplay -l as shown below it |
| [22:36:01] | wizbit: | excellent :D |
| [22:36:10] | ** wizbit sends simcop2387 some good karma ** | |
| [22:36:57] | simcop2387: | you can probably just give everything hw:0,8 but i think i remember it just being simpler to do that |
| [22:38:19] | wizbit: | Seeker`: would you consider moving to dvb-t2 |
| [22:42:31] | Beirdo: | watchin the "IRT Deadliest Roads" today |
| [22:42:46] | Beirdo: | with them driving in the Andes right now |
| [22:45:26] | Beirdo: | OK, first step... upgrade to current... |
| [22:45:35] | Beirdo: | then maybe I'll look at a bug or two |
| [22:48:36] | drindt (drindt!~drindt@brln-4dba7be5.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [22:49:07] | Seeker`: | wizbit: why would I move to DVB-T2? |
| [22:49:32] | wizbit: | easier than sticking a sat dish up |
| [22:49:56] | Seeker`: | I live in a block of flats with a sat dish already on the roof :P |
| [22:50:05] | wizbit: | oh ok |
| [22:50:18] | sphery: | at least their flat--that must mean that it's easier to get a direct line of site to the satellite |
| [22:50:20] | Seeker`: | If DVB-T2 were available in my area and I didn't have a sat dish already up I'd certainly consider it |
| [22:50:21] | sphery: | they're |
| [22:50:45] | Seeker`: | sphery: didn't say level :P |
| [22:51:10] | wizbit: | i wonder what areas it covers |
| [22:51:14] | sphery: | hehe |
| [22:51:25] | drindt: | hey guys, maybe someone has an hint for me. since i new installed myth and use a dvb-c usb stick i cant tune in a hd station. i got all the time "unknown recorder error". sometimes i also can't tune in a normal channel, it seems there is a timing problem. hopefully i get a suggestion to solve this. thanks |
| [22:51:31] | Seeker`: | but I wont get any DVB-T2 for another 4 months or so |
| [22:52:35] | wizbit: | hopefully london/essex folk are ok.. |
| [22:52:39] | Seeker`: | wizbit: http://freeview.co.uk/HD |
| [22:52:57] | Seeker`: | wizbit: It'll probably be after switchover that it becomes available |
| [22:53:12] | picgla (picgla!~picmar@70-36-234-243.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [22:53:54] | wizbit: | Freeview HD available: March 2011 |
| [22:54:44] | ** wizbit wipes tear from eye ** | |
| [22:55:02] | Seeker`: | ? |
| [22:55:13] | wizbit: | ive been waiting for this moment for years |
| [22:55:37] | Seeker`: | what moment is that? |
| [22:55:43] | wizbit: | HD |
| [22:55:55] | Seeker`: | heh |
| [22:56:41] | wizbit: | i will keep my nova-t 500 for all the other non-HD channels |
| [22:56:55] | Seeker`: | yeah, I've got a nova-t 500 and my dvb-s2 card now |
| [22:57:02] | wizbit: | and get a PCTV SYSTEMS DVB-T2 290e for those 4 HD channels |
| [22:57:51] | wizbit: | http://www.amazon.co.uk/PCTV-DVB-T2-290e-Nano . . . 9&sr=8-4 |
| [22:57:57] | wizbit: | gone down again in price :D |
| [22:58:19] | Beirdo: | hahaha, I have A-Team recording all day |
| [22:58:24] | Beirdo: | umm, screw that |
| [22:58:47] | sphery: | send in the B-Team! |
| [22:59:08] | wizbit: | do you americans have lots of non-HD channels? |
| [23:01:00] | sphery: | OTA-wise, we generally have HDTV channels with non-HDTV subchannels |
| [23:01:32] | sphery: | each broadcaster gets a single 6MHz frequency block allocated for their use as they desire, and since that's not enough for 2 good-quality HDTV subchannels... |
| [23:01:41] | wizbit: | ok |
| [23:02:14] | wizbit: | 4x HDTV channels will be amazing |
| [23:02:42] | sphery: | then again, there's not much good on the other subchannels... Only one I generally record stuff off is the "old movies" subchannel of one of the broadcasters |
| [23:03:39] | Seeker`: | wizbit: I imagine that DVB-S2 will have more HD channels than DVB-T2, seeing as they are already being broadcast on sattelite, just encrypted atm |
| [23:03:48] | drindt: | hey guys, maybe someone has an hint for me. since i new installed myth and use a dvb-c usb stick i cant tune in a hd station. i got all the time "unknown recorder error". sometimes i also can't tune in a normal channel, it seems there is a timing problem. hopefully i get a suggestion to solve this. thanks |
| [23:05:48] | wizbit: | Seeker`: i bet the americans dont even have 4x HDTV channels |
| [23:08:15] | Seeker`: | Do you mean 4k? |
| [23:08:27] | Beirdo: | OK... waiting for this show to finish.. then restart |
| [23:13:54] | croppa (croppa!~stuart@CPE-120-146-137-99.static.nsw.bigpond.net.au) has joined #mythtv-users | |
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| [23:19:19] | awalls: | ota from washington dc usually has 1080i and sometimes a 720p subchannel |
| [23:19:41] | awalls: | depends on the broadcaster. |
| [23:20:28] | croppa_ (croppa_!~stuart@CPE-120-146-137-99.static.nsw.bigpond.net.au) has joined #mythtv-users | |
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| [23:26:15] | PhilQ (PhilQ!~phil@quineyclan.force9.co.uk) has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | |
| [23:28:47] | wizbit: | is there a simple way to switch between analogue out and digital out using software? maybe using jackd? |
| [23:29:51] | [R] ([R]!~rbox@unaffiliated/rbox) has quit (Quit: Leaving) | |
| [23:30:30] | trumee: | Seeker`, what dvb-s2 card are you using? |
| [23:46:20] | Seeker`: | trumee: TBS 6920 |
| [23:46:55] | trumee: | Seeker`, cheers. |
| [23:47:49] | trumee: | Seeker`, is that single tuner? |
| [23:47:59] | Seeker`: | correct |
| [23:49:53] | zombor (zombor!~zombor_@kohana/developer/zombor) has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | |
| [23:49:53] | trumee: | Seeker`, I have a Technisat SkyStar2 DVB card atm, but some channels sometimes dont work very well |
| [23:50:24] | trumee: | Maybe the signal isnt good enough. Is there any card which can boost the signal. |
| [23:50:42] | trumee: | I live in a flat with a common dish btw. |
| [23:51:39] | ** trumee hopes to get a 2 tuner card for simultaneous viewing/recording. ** | |
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