| Wednesday, April 20th, 2011, 00:10 UTC | ||
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| [01:03:55] | wagnerrp: | the see-portals-through-walls bit is nice |
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| [05:08:40] | wagnerrp: | mmm... tornado siren |
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| [06:40:32] | wagnerrp: | so about six hours... double the price, double the length |
| [06:40:42] | wagnerrp: | maybe 5.5 |
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| [08:05:01] | justinh: | ugh why is everybody + dog using github these days? |
| [08:05:15] | justinh: | a POX on git |
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| [08:06:30] | justinh: | "I'm just hoping one day someone will do a great theme for myth". Man, that STILL hurts |
| [08:06:49] | ** justinh sends some GDIAFOIP ** | |
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| [08:15:34] | sid3windr: | go die in a fire of IP ? |
| [08:15:40] | sid3windr: | ah, over. |
| [08:15:40] | sid3windr: | :D |
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| [08:34:38] | justinh: | anyway, yes that special mythtv theme where vast amounts of videos are presented as One Big List (tm) still eludes us |
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| [08:42:59] | justinh: | hmm. had enough watching the desktop box HDD thrash now. Come on Firefox.. be killed already |
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| [09:24:18] | justinh: | hahaha. stupid new product with a switch inside doesn't have any way to connect the switch to the main board, necessitating a short patch cable on the outside. LAME |
| [09:25:41] | justinh: | and it looks like the shortest I can buy off the shelf is 25cm long |
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| [09:57:03] | justinh: | heh I just noticed one of our Java developers has to put up with using a 15" LCD monitor |
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| [09:57:43] | jamiem: | justinh: all you need for 80 columns |
| [09:59:16] | justinh: | ONE 15" monitor |
| [09:59:42] | justinh: | the web gui doesn't even fit on that |
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| [11:32:36] | justinh: | ugh. Moonfruit.com also needs to die in a fire. |
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| [11:50:49] | ** justinh wonders what happens to people (like me) to make them become such haters of silly little things like Adobe Flash ** | |
| [11:54:19] | mycoDA: | you know my biggest monitor is 19" |
| [11:55:13] | justinh: | that's fine, if it suits you :) |
| [11:55:25] | mycoDA: | meh is what i have |
| [11:55:32] | mycoDA: | normally use 2 of em tho lol |
| [11:55:39] | mycoDA: | 1crt and one LCD |
| [11:55:45] | justinh: | I just dunno how anybody can do serious development in an efficient manner with a 15" LCD |
| [11:56:51] | mycoDA: | text mode nuts |
| [11:57:08] | mycoDA: | emacs an tex types |
| [11:57:51] | justinh: | not even using an IDE, I note :) |
| [12:04:22] | lxs-makoto (lxs-makoto!~makoto@85.210.84.54) has joined #mythtv-users | |
| [12:05:22] | lxs-makoto: | sup. I've got a backend, running mythbuntu 10.04, and my laptop where I have mythfrontend. The backend can connect to itself, but i cant connect the laptop, because the laptop wants a newer database or something. how do i fix it? |
| [12:06:04] | mycoDA: | run the same version on both |
| [12:06:13] | mycoDA: | of myth that is |
| [12:06:21] | lxs-makoto: | oh. |
| [12:06:29] | lxs-makoto: | yuck. |
| [12:07:12] | lxs-makoto: | is there a ppa with newer versions of myth for ubuntu? |
| [12:09:36] | lxs-makoto: | servers version is "26437", and laptops version is "0.24", is the server running an old dev build? |
| [12:15:28] | lxs-makoto: | k, im updating, will i have to mess around with the databases, or will they be automatically upgraded? |
| [12:15:31] | justinh: | if the laptop is running ubuntu you can use the mythbuntu packages |
| [12:15:39] | lxs-makoto: | nah its running arch |
| [12:15:47] | justinh: | the frontend on the laptop should *not* update the database |
| [12:16:32] | justinh: | by that I mean it shouldn't change the schema version etc |
| [12:16:39] | lxs-makoto: | hmm |
| [12:17:08] | justinh: | you need to run *exactly* the same version on all mythtv components |
| [12:17:53] | lxs-makoto: | ok |
| [12:18:07] | lxs-makoto: | heres what the laptop was kicking out when i connected http://pastebin.com/A9HTBZJd |
| [12:18:14] | justinh: | so if the backend is running 26437, that is what you must run on everything else |
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| [12:19:03] | justinh: | so that's a newer version on your laptop |
| [12:19:21] | justinh: | it's trying – and thankfully (for you) failing to update the database schema |
| [12:20:19] | lxs-makoto: | i just tried to update the server |
| [12:20:21] | lxs-makoto: | looks done |
| [12:20:26] | lxs-makoto: | but its spitting out this |
| [12:20:27] | lxs-makoto: | myth@lxs-xw6000:~$ sudo mythbackend --version |
| [12:20:27] | lxs-makoto: | mythbackend: error while loading shared libraries: libmythtv-0.23.1.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory |
| [12:20:46] | justinh: | 0.23 ?! |
| [12:20:51] | lxs-makoto: | yup |
| [12:20:58] | lxs-makoto: | i told it to update to 0.24 |
| [12:21:28] | lxs-makoto: | ohh wait |
| [12:21:37] | lxs-makoto: | The following packages have been kept back: mythgallery mythmusic mythtv-backend mythtv-common mythtv-frontend mythtv-themes mythtv-transcode-utils mythvideo mythweather mythweb |
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| [12:21:42] | lxs-makoto: | *facepalm* |
| [12:24:12] | lxs-makoto: | MythTV Version : v0.24-248-g8c6ee70 |
| [12:24:17] | lxs-makoto: | that looks better |
| [12:24:56] | justinh: | maybe, but is it the same as the laptop frontend version? I think not |
| [12:25:49] | lxs-makoto: | hmm. |
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| [12:32:41] | justinh: | blimey. managementboy is going to ursurp my record |
| [12:33:48] | lxs-makoto: | awesome |
| [12:33:52] | lxs-makoto: | versions dont match |
| [12:33:56] | lxs-makoto: | but its running |
| [12:34:20] | lxs-makoto: | i just had to fix my herpderps in the backend config, ips and ports to be specific |
| [12:34:32] | lxs-makoto: | i has a picture on the laptop now, thanks :D |
| [12:35:15] | lxs-makoto: | 2011-04–20 13:34:07.001 Player(0): Waited 100ms for video buffers AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUuuL |
| [12:35:27] | lxs-makoto: | lolwut @ the AAAAAAAAAAAAA stufff |
| [12:35:28] | justinh: | herpderps? |
| [12:35:38] | lxs-makoto: | i made lots of errors |
| [12:35:42] | lxs-makoto: | stupid errors |
| [12:36:02] | justinh: | and the buffering errors.. likely due to wireless sucking etc |
| [12:38:50] | justinh: | or maybe the laptop is too slow to actually play video. under X on linux mythtv needs a *minimum* of Xv acceleration to play nicely |
| [12:39:03] | lxs-makoto: | combination of both |
| [12:39:30] | lxs-makoto: | because the servers over a wifi bridge, connected to an ap, connected to a switch. laptops connected to a different ap on that switch. |
| [12:39:37] | justinh: | if ATI or Nvidia, use the restricted binary drivers |
| [12:40:02] | justinh: | assuming ATI, restricted binary drivers are only ever any good if your hardware is still supported |
| [12:40:07] | lxs-makoto: | cant, ATI dropped support for the xpress 200 chipset in 09 |
| [12:40:13] | justinh: | ouch |
| [12:40:14] | lxs-makoto: | lol |
| [12:40:29] | hashbang: | lxs-makoto: FYI, I had bad stuttering streaming over 54Mbps, but upgrading to 300Mbps seems to be sufficient |
| [12:40:46] | hashbang: | (actually probably 135Mbps suffices) |
| [12:40:54] | justinh: | 54Mbps not enough? Ouch |
| [12:40:56] | lxs-makoto: | i had the laptop for about 2 weeks. then they were like "LOL lets drop support!" |
| [12:41:12] | hashbang: | justinh: I suspect latency/retransmits rather than pure bandwidth |
| [12:41:14] | justinh: | isn't there some legacy-ish driver suppor tthough? |
| [12:41:18] | justinh: | hashbang: yeah likely |
| [12:41:23] | lxs-makoto: | nope |
| [12:41:26] | lxs-makoto: | well, yes |
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| [12:41:41] | lxs-makoto: | but the overlay the image with a huge "UNSUPPORTED HARDWARE" watermak |
| [12:41:44] | justinh: | I had a big argument with somebody over the whole 'connected at' report vs *actual* speed thing the other week |
| [12:41:46] | lxs-makoto: | and a giant ATI logo |
| [12:42:23] | justinh: | but MUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, it's 3000TGBPS! It SAYS so in the taskbar... MUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH |
| [12:42:48] | hashbang: | my wired network is only 100Mbps, and that's plenty |
| [12:42:58] | justinh: | AFAIK some wireless drivers suck incredibly in linux |
| [12:43:26] | justinh: | my laptop can't even get a sustained xfer rate over 60KB/sec in linux whether or not I'm in the same room as the router |
| [12:43:42] | lxs-makoto: | mine is ok, for about an hour |
| [12:43:45] | lxs-makoto: | then it drops |
| [12:43:56] | justinh: | 'connected at 54mbps' it says.. LOL |
| [12:44:14] | lxs-makoto: | and you have to reboot the laptop for it to work again. no amount of reinserting the modules fixes it |
| [12:44:22] | justinh: | heh |
| [12:44:37] | justinh: | if buying a laptop for linux, do plenty of research |
| [12:44:45] | justinh: | mine works.. just |
| [12:44:55] | lxs-makoto: | mine worked |
| [12:44:56] | lxs-makoto: | at the time |
| [12:45:04] | lxs-makoto: | for about 2 months it worked fine |
| [12:45:09] | justinh: | my next laptop will have nothing but non-broadcom wifi, nvidia graphics... |
| [12:45:16] | lxs-makoto: | out come some "new features" and it all screws up |
| [12:45:27] | lxs-makoto: | same. |
| [12:45:30] | justinh: | nvidia keep supporting stuff for much longer than ATI |
| [12:45:37] | justinh: | at the moment :-) |
| [12:45:49] | lxs-makoto: | afaik they still suppport my 03 fx5200 in linux |
| [12:46:06] | justinh: | thought that was only in nvidia-legacy or so |
| [12:46:08] | lxs-makoto: | my next laptops gonna be a toughbook CF-T1 :3 |
| [12:46:25] | lxs-makoto: | specs are pretty naff though. wouldn't be for serious stuff |
| [12:46:39] | justinh: | never gonna alow a dell vostro laptop purchase in my house again either. my wife got one |
| [12:46:54] | lxs-makoto: | what model? |
| [12:47:01] | lxs-makoto: | im using a vostro 1000 |
| [12:47:02] | justinh: | oh I dunno |
| [12:47:11] | justinh: | something low end. it was cheap |
| [12:47:31] | lxs-makoto: | i got mine cheap, and with a 3 year nbd warranty |
| [12:47:31] | justinh: | spends most of its life downloading updates for vista home |
| [12:47:46] | lxs-makoto: | mums inspiron does that all the time |
| [12:48:00] | justinh: | go to shutdown – no, install updates first. install some, reboot, install some more, reboot.. then shutdown. Piece of crap |
| [12:48:05] | lxs-makoto: | meh, not as bad as my sisters school laptop, shes got a vye s-18 |
| [12:48:07] | lxs-makoto: | horrible laptop |
| [12:48:19] | lxs-makoto: | geode 500mhz, with the graphics in the cpu |
| [12:48:28] | lxs-makoto: | no chip, ON the cpu |
| [12:48:42] | justinh: | awful case, awful keyboard.. the trackpad is ok ish but there's no scroll buttons – which is fine if you *like* the sidescroll thingy arrangement |
| [12:48:43] | lxs-makoto: | hait hated linux |
| [12:48:48] | lxs-makoto: | LOL |
| [12:48:51] | justinh: | good speakers though |
| [12:49:01] | lxs-makoto: | you said awful keyboard, mines just broke now XD |
| [12:49:03] | justinh: | but then they would be, in a box that BIG |
| [12:49:11] | lxs-makoto: | the y keycap keeps falling off |
| [12:49:24] | justinh: | weird layout too |
| [12:49:51] | justinh: | yeah next laptop will cost at least twice what I spent on that baby I reckon |
| [12:52:32] | lxs-makoto: | ok y keycap is back on, for the next 4 presses |
| [12:52:34] | justinh: | huh? anything with nvidia or ati graphics is considered a *gaming* laptop? |
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| [12:52:53] | lxs-makoto: | wow. where did they get that from? |
| [12:53:24] | justinh: | where 'gaming' is defined by me as wanting smooth video playback of *anything* |
| [12:53:31] | justinh: | i.e. not crappy Intel junk |
| [12:54:39] | justinh: | I can get smooth (non-tearing) playback in linux, but not in windows.. but in linux the wireless sucks so bad I can't play video from the network LOL |
| [12:56:46] | lxs-makoto: | yay for wired then ;) |
| [12:57:09] | lxs-makoto: | when people say "wifi's down" and moan at me, i normally hand them a cable. works every time |
| [12:57:19] | justinh: | kinda defeats the whole point of having a laptop |
| [12:57:31] | lxs-makoto: | lolno |
| [12:57:38] | ** lxs-makoto hugs his toughbook CF-25 ** | |
| [12:57:42] | lxs-makoto: | no wireless there! |
| [12:57:54] | justinh: | good for holding doors open I suppose |
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| [13:00:48] | perlmonkey: | hi all |
| [13:01:40] | justinh: | blimey. LTNS |
| [13:01:55] | perlmonkey: | does anyone know if its possible to disable sound on a recording profile for one specific source? mythtv is taking over my soundcard and I can't play any audio while I'm watching TV (is that normal?) |
| [13:02:21] | justinh: | nothing to do with recording profiles |
| [13:02:27] | perlmonkey: | ok where do I look |
| [13:02:52] | justinh: | it's likely just stopping pulseaudio & the app trying to play audio wants to use pulseaudio |
| [13:02:52] | perlmonkey: | I'm using mthtv as a cctv system and don't need audio |
| [13:03:05] | perlmonkey: | right |
| [13:03:29] | mycoDA: | lxs-makoto fyi ATI is pain for anything other than gaming and basic windows use |
| [13:03:33] | ** justinh looks. Is pulseaudio NOT DEAD YET? ** | |
| [13:03:59] | justinh: | ah PA.. another of my irrational hatreds |
| [13:04:00] | mycoDA: | no, very much still saying 'braiiinnssssss' |
| [13:04:25] | mycoDA: | i have a similar dislike for ATI to that you have for USB |
| [13:04:30] | mycoDA: | tho mine is rational |
| [13:04:39] | justinh: | it may very well do no ill to me, but because mythtv & it don't happily coexist, I despise it |
| [13:04:42] | mycoDA: | they cant write drivers to save their lives |
| [13:05:05] | mycoDA: | is more OpenGL and ATI dont mix |
| [13:05:06] | justinh: | mycoDA: I owned an ATI card once. I thought it was amazing when it worked for 10 minutes or so once |
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| [13:05:19] | justinh: | ATI All-In-wonder |
| [13:05:38] | mycoDA: | ATI work fine for direct 3D, on one screen |
| [13:05:48] | mycoDA: | with one gpu |
| [13:05:59] | justinh: | drivers firmly rooted in the V4W sphere, but I was trying to make it work on windows 98 |
| [13:06:03] | mycoDA: | o, and direct draw |
| [13:06:43] | justinh: | got it working, managed to capture video at last after a few weeks of messing about with it every night.. and then it hard-locked the machine & couldn't be made to work again |
| [13:06:56] | mycoDA: | roflmao |
| [13:07:07] | justinh: | that was a good £150 down the drain right there. Vowed never again |
| [13:07:36] | mycoDA: | my fiancee has ATI on her laptop, but she does nothing more challenging than basic photoshop |
| [13:07:43] | mycoDA: | this is a quadro |
| [13:07:50] | mycoDA: | gamer box is an sli box |
| [13:07:59] | mycoDA: | myth is a 9600GT |
| [13:08:29] | justinh: | my backend has a 8400 in it.. but only because that was the cheapest card I could find |
| [13:08:51] | mycoDA: | did have a gt210 in it, but that wont run the rearpro |
| [13:08:51] | perlmonkey: | stopping and restart pulseaudio appears to have had no effect |
| [13:09:00] | mycoDA: | what about uninstalling it? |
| [13:09:09] | perlmonkey: | ok could try |
| [13:09:14] | mycoDA: | oh yeah – the gt210 is in the remote frontend |
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| [13:09:29] | mycoDA: | pulseaudio is not suitable for media work |
| [13:09:36] | mycoDA: | too much latency |
| [13:09:57] | mycoDA: | pure alsa is nice |
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| [13:10:05] | ** perlmonkey is uninstalling ** | |
| [13:11:06] | perlmonkey: | got to reboot brb |
| [13:11:09] | mycoDA: | if you cant use dual sounds at once after that, then there is a tweak |
| [13:11:19] | justinh: | I think the official line is.. with pulseaudio & latency.. YMMV ;) |
| [13:11:52] | mycoDA: | you mean YDMV, but will be large |
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| [13:12:43] | ** mycoDA doesnt understand using the highest latency possible schema for audio you could without routing it outside the machine ** | |
| [13:13:09] | mycoDA: | only way i can think to add more delay than a modular sound system would be to send it over TOR |
| [13:13:55] | justinh: | I did try PA on a spare box ages ago.. I didn't notice any latency |
| [13:14:02] | mycoDA: | rly????? |
| [13:14:06] | mycoDA: | on myth? |
| [13:14:11] | justinh: | not on myth no |
| [13:14:21] | justinh: | there was no way to make it pretend to work then |
| [13:14:28] | mycoDA: | cos is the equiv of sending foldback to every effect you can think of |
| [13:14:51] | mycoDA: | with video playback? |
| [13:14:54] | justinh: | still shouldn't add *that* much latency |
| [13:14:57] | justinh: | yes |
| [13:15:04] | mycoDA: | ohhh, so not that much |
| [13:15:09] | mycoDA: | v diff to no lol |
| [13:15:29] | mycoDA: | alsa is pretty close to 0, is nice like that |
| [13:15:32] | justinh: | pretty sure not many people have issues with latency but when they do it's awful |
| [13:16:02] | mycoDA: | the whole ide of treating sound like a unix pipe is a lil retarded imo |
| [13:16:07] | justinh: | had an interesting time trying to get myth to output through JACK |
| [13:16:25] | justinh: | so I could shove it through a couple of LADSPA plugins.. oof |
| [13:16:38] | justinh: | I could see the level meters moving etc.. but heard nothing lol |
| [13:16:41] | mycoDA: | have an LADSPA plugin running now |
| [13:16:43] | mycoDA: | CAPS |
| [13:16:51] | mycoDA: | on pure alsa |
| [13:16:54] | mycoDA: | ;) |
| [13:16:59] | justinh: | hmmm? |
| [13:17:52] | justinh: | oh christ |
| [13:18:04] | mycoDA: | http://quitte.de/dsp/caps.html |
| [13:18:05] | justinh: | 'simply' add LADSPA plugins to your alsa.conf. LOL |
| [13:18:05] | mycoDA: | ? |
| [13:18:13] | mycoDA: | not quite |
| [13:19:35] | mycoDA: | http://www.thedigitalmachine.net/alsaequal.html |
| [13:19:41] | justinh: | I found an example lowpass filter config for a ladspa plugin for alsa.conf. eek |
| [13:20:07] | mycoDA: | designed to allow CAPS to run under alsa, but could work for any LADSPA plugin in theory |
| [13:20:47] | mycoDA: | desparately needed an equaliser so my digging found that |
| [13:22:23] | justinh: | http://alsa.opensrc.org/Ladspa_%28plugin%29 is interesting |
| [13:23:27] | justinh: | wish I'd known about that before I wasted hours with JACK |
| [13:24:24] | justinh: | OMG Dave have commissioned a new series of Red Dwarf |
| [13:25:23] | justinh: | wonder how I can make a custom rule to make sure it never gets recorded |
| [13:26:21] | justinh: | WHRE program.title LIKE "red%dwarf%" AND channel.name NOT LIKE "%dave%" – maybe |
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| [13:27:13] | perlmonkey: | all working fine now, many thanks |
| [13:27:22] | hashbang: | justinh: lol |
| [13:27:38] | justinh: | perlmonkey: so er.. why mythtv for cctv, not zoneminder? |
| [13:27:52] | justinh: | I thought they were moving to support PVR cards |
| [13:28:42] | perlmonkey: | justinh: i looked at zoneminder briefly but it looked a bit over kill for my needs..mythtv seems to do the job and I like being able to have cctv on one card and tv on another and switch between easily |
| [13:29:08] | justinh: | you do know mythtv has a zoneminder plugin, right? ;) |
| [13:29:15] | perlmonkey: | no i didn't know that |
| [13:29:21] | justinh: | mythzoneminder |
| [13:29:25] | perlmonkey: | coool |
| [13:29:41] | justinh: | you can't easily switch between TV & it though, AFAIK |
| [13:29:42] | perlmonkey: | i can't watch tv at moment as dont have a licence |
| [13:30:00] | justinh: | did you lose it for watching too much Channel Five? ;-) |
| [13:30:16] | perlmonkey: | im checking with my cable provider the legality of using STB for tv-on-demand without licence, waiting for a response..i dont suppose anyone knows about that? |
| [13:30:23] | perlmonkey: | lol |
| [13:30:41] | justinh: | perlmonkey: no, you need a licence to operate ANY TV receiving equipment, broadcast or not |
| [13:31:04] | justinh: | that technically (though how they'd police it is a conundrum) includes PCs |
| [13:31:30] | justinh: | oh wait they did say that would only be for 'live' content |
| [13:31:31] | perlmonkey: | ok seems to be a grey area as TV Licensing say you only need a licence to watch or record TV as it's being broadcast, but you can use TV or recorder for other purposes without a licence |
| [13:31:56] | perlmonkey: | but a STB is installed and able to view live TV so I guess even if you dont watch TV, still needs to be licensed eh |
| [13:32:09] | justinh: | I just pay up. what little I do watch on telly is worth it IMHO |
| [13:32:39] | perlmonkey: | yeah I would pay, but I just hate TV Licensing to be honest and the company behind it, their tactics..and I hate funding BBC |
| [13:32:50] | justinh: | and channel four |
| [13:32:50] | perlmonkey: | so its kind of a personal principle thing |
| [13:32:54] | perlmonkey: | aye |
| [13:33:06] | justinh: | ugh. imagine a world with no BBC! |
| [13:33:09] | justinh: | shudder |
| [13:33:13] | perlmonkey: | heh |
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| [13:33:38] | justinh: | they always say you never know you're onto a good thing til it's gone |
| [13:33:42] | perlmonkey: | i just caught on CCTV cam... |
| [13:34:39] | justinh: | perlmonkey: BTW, I dunno what your cameras are like but my CCTV DVR records D1 images at 25fps on all four inputs.. and er... when I got burgled it was *absolutely* *NO* frickin use what so ever |
| [13:34:40] | perlmonkey: | 2 council officers have arrived, taking photos of a guys car engine in flat nextdoor, he dumped in middle of close..and taking photos of the car he removed from and all the oil all over road..what a mess.. someones getting the bill I think |
| [13:35:16] | justinh: | you could just about tell, thanks to the IR illumination, that one of the guys was non-white |
| [13:36:00] | justinh: | faces at best only took up maybe quarter of the screen... so 576i / 4 == not enough res to go on |
| [13:36:46] | justinh: | I'm angling to get rid of it but my wife is being an obstacle. It wasn't a deterrent, and ultimately didn't help solve the crime either |
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| [13:38:48] | justinh: | still, it can be handy for telling whether the postie has been or not.. and whether the parcel delivery company are being lying bastards as usual or not |
| [13:39:31] | justinh: | 'we called but there was nobody in'. Er NO, your van guy came up the path, shoved the card in the letter box & went on his way without even trying to make the delivery |
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| [13:42:29] | perlmonkey: | sorry internet went down |
| [13:42:37] | perlmonkey: | second time today *sigh* |
| [13:44:09] | justinh: | internet, or the router? |
| [13:44:53] | justinh: | I'm on VM too, and noticed they gave away a netgear router for sharing home broadband.. the same one I first bought when I went wireless.. it needed power cycling quite often |
| [13:44:58] | perlmonkey: | internet |
| [13:45:18] | perlmonkey: | my kit is 10 years old! |
| [13:45:18] | justinh: | I honestly can't remember the last time our broadband went down |
| [13:45:28] | perlmonkey: | im still on same modem i got in 2001 |
| [13:45:28] | justinh: | oh. still on the STB broadband? |
| [13:45:36] | perlmonkey: | ya |
| [13:45:47] | justinh: | oof. you should hassle em |
| [13:45:56] | perlmonkey: | well i have a separate modem and the old style STB |
| [13:46:09] | justinh: | can the 10yr old modems even do 10Mbit? |
| [13:46:29] | justinh: | not that it matters, I think the new slowest speed they do is 20Mbit |
| [13:46:29] | perlmonkey: | it seems so i did a test and it confirmed the connection, but i rarely get that speed |
| [13:46:34] | perlmonkey: | more like 2Mbit max |
| [13:46:38] | justinh: | ouch |
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| [13:46:58] | justinh: | I see people moan about VM all the time on El Reg etc & wonder WTH they're on about LOL |
| [13:47:06] | perlmonkey: | hehe |
| [13:47:32] | perlmonkey: | I used to complain regular on the Blueyonder Usenet support forum until Virgin removed them in favour of their own forum |
| [13:47:39] | justinh: | in like 11 years, it's gone off maybe 4 times for a couple of hours or so |
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| [13:48:08] | perlmonkey: | mine was going off every few weeks last year |
| [13:48:16] | perlmonkey: | sometimes for hours |
| [13:48:23] | justinh: | tell em to sort it or you walk :-) |
| [13:48:34] | perlmonkey: | and the TV never works properly does it, always some problem with one channel or other |
| [13:48:44] | perlmonkey: | i always threaten with Sky now |
| [13:48:49] | perlmonkey: | seems to get their attention :D |
| [13:48:53] | justinh: | we asked about downgrading our broadband to save money & they said we were already on the slowest. So they knocked £12 a month off. Permanently |
| [13:49:03] | justinh: | perlmonkey: not that ADSL will necessarily be any better |
| [13:49:05] | perlmonkey: | woah |
| [13:49:10] | perlmonkey: | I tell you something they tried on me.. |
| [13:49:44] | justinh: | the CS rep went "oh.. you've been with us HOW long?".. rattle of keys.. "there!" |
| [13:50:10] | justinh: | Sky don't like churn either. I know somebody now paying half for the full package |
| [13:50:12] | perlmonkey: | I asked to change the name of the account as it was in my partners name but I pay all the bills and have done since day one.. they told me, £20 to transfer account as we have to do credit check and admin costs.. I told them, dont need credit, do the change without charge, or i'll go to Sky |
| [13:50:25] | perlmonkey: | they replied, we'll charge you £20 and credit £20 back off your next bill |
| [13:50:35] | justinh: | and forgot to credit? |
| [13:50:59] | perlmonkey: | they did the credit as promised, but it just goes to show how they make money out of customers |
| [13:51:41] | justinh: | I don't like how they can charge for info they get for free.. like Caller ID |
| [13:51:47] | perlmonkey: | i got a discount off the package service as i didnt want the phone, I pay £5.88 a month now for TV |
| [13:52:04] | justinh: | heh |
| [13:52:05] | perlmonkey: | i had to ask for the discount tho and tell them i didnt want phone, was no option on website at time |
| [13:52:12] | mycoDA: | glad it worked perlmomkey |
| [13:52:14] | justinh: | they've done good stuff with the ondemand gear though |
| [13:52:17] | perlmonkey: | thanks |
| [13:52:27] | justinh: | esp. the iplayer.. that's very good |
| [13:52:36] | mycoDA: | http://www.thedigitalmachine.net/alsaequal.html may/may not be of interest |
| [13:52:39] | justinh: | pity about the simple transport controls though |
| [13:52:58] | perlmonkey: | well looks like I have to cancel my TV package and lose TV on Demand, which sucks a lot, as I used to record a lot of stuff on mythtv |
| [13:53:08] | perlmonkey: | but im not going to back down on the licence issue |
| [13:53:39] | mycoDA: | would be near impossible to police |
| [13:53:55] | mycoDA: | given you have all the cctv gear |
| [13:53:59] | perlmonkey: | I asked VM if they can do something to my STB or the service from their end, to stop live TV on the box |
| [13:54:05] | perlmonkey: | but they haven't replied |
| [13:54:17] | justinh: | mycoDA: nah, the TVL lot have a database of UK addresses & just assume everybody has a TV |
| [13:54:17] | perlmonkey: | yes |
| [13:54:25] | justinh: | you have to prove you haven't, if you don't |
| [13:54:35] | justinh: | a big point of contention, that |
| [13:54:35] | mycoDA: | yeah – but they cant do jack if you say you dont watch it |
| [13:54:39] | perlmonkey: | thats right, guilty until proven innocent is their approach eh |
| [13:54:53] | mycoDA: | pretty sure i read the law was the other way round |
| [13:54:54] | perlmonkey: | if you don't have a TV licene they think you should and won't stop until you do |
| [13:54:54] | justinh: | I don't agree with that either, mind |
| [13:55:07] | mycoDA: | but they cant do anything about it |
| [13:55:11] | mycoDA: | they cant come in |
| [13:55:17] | mycoDA: | they cant check |
| [13:55:19] | perlmonkey: | i get letters every month threatening me |
| [13:55:25] | mycoDA: | stuff em |
| [13:55:26] | justinh: | put you TVL refusenicks are labouring under the impression that UK gov will stop the TVL even when the BBC are cut off from its funding :-D |
| [13:55:27] | perlmonkey: | and they visited twice but i ignored them |
| [13:56:06] | justinh: | I mean – as if THAT is ever gonna happen. Imagine – UK gov doing away with a tax! |
| [13:56:06] | mycoDA: | in australia we are sane – we realise that if you are going to get everyone to pay something , you may as well just call it income tax |
| [13:56:15] | perlmonkey: | heh |
| [13:56:46] | justinh: | I find it funny how seemingly all the sky apologists don't think for one second that'll happen |
| [13:56:53] | mycoDA: | seriously – jus tell em to blow it out their arse |
| [13:57:03] | justinh: | yes sure UK gov may cut the BBC off from the fee. Course it is |
| [13:57:06] | mycoDA: | nothing at all they can do |
| [13:57:18] | perlmonkey: | i hate paying TV tax |
| [13:57:23] | mycoDA: | so dont |
| [13:57:32] | justinh: | mycoDA: you can be put away for longer than a common thief for evading the licence fee |
| [13:57:42] | perlmonkey: | the £145 i saved has been put to good use, i bought loads of DVDs and stuff |
| [13:57:45] | mycoDA: | (did some reading up on it – so damn odd from my point of view) |
| [13:57:51] | hashbang: | justinh: do I remember you saying that Myth's dep on MySQL is planned to go away in the mid- to long-term? |
| [13:57:56] | mycoDA: | they have to prove it justinh |
| [13:58:00] | perlmonkey: | i dont even miss TV, can watch most stuff on iplayer and other services |
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| [13:58:23] | mycoDA: | as soon as something goes to court, it becomes reasonable doubt, burden on the accuser |
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| [13:58:30] | mycoDA: | is the basis of our system |
| [13:58:33] | justinh: | mycoDA: they still manage to get people |
| [13:58:34] | mycoDA: | we arent in france |
| [13:58:43] | mycoDA: | imbeciles |
| [13:58:45] | perlmonkey: | the way TVL operates would shock you guys, especially the evidence side of things |
| [13:58:55] | perlmonkey: | I've been absorbed in this and researching a lot |
| [13:58:59] | mycoDA: | the inspectors dont have the power even to enter a premices |
| [13:59:11] | perlmonkey: | thats right, they need permission or a warrant |
| [13:59:11] | justinh: | evidence, meaning 'you bought receiving equipment capable of viewing televsion' |
| [13:59:17] | mycoDA: | they will do a lot if you let em, read that much |
| [13:59:31] | perlmonkey: | they have this classic trick they rely on to get convictions, the door step admission method |
| [13:59:40] | mycoDA: | no justinh – you can say you only play dvds or from the net |
| [13:59:44] | perlmonkey: | its the most common way people end up with a conviction and fine |
| [13:59:47] | mycoDA: | pre-recorded doesnt count |
| [13:59:55] | perlmonkey: | what they say is.. |
| [14:00:05] | justinh: | mycoDA: not if you have an aerial, and it's plugged into the TV.. and can conceivably BE plugged in |
| [14:00:31] | mycoDA: | thing is – they need a warrant to proove that |
| [14:00:37] | mycoDA: | and they dont get them |
| [14:00:54] | justinh: | I heard they can, and do |
| [14:00:55] | perlmonkey: | do you have a TV or other equipment capable of receiving TV? if you say yes, but i dont use it to watch TV.. they ask, is it installed and in working order, capable of receiving TV signal? if you answer yes, but i dont use it for watching live TV, they caution you and then the summons and fine comes |
| [14:01:16] | justinh: | the gov sanctions all this |
| [14:01:22] | justinh: | it's really their fault, not the BBC |
| [14:01:26] | perlmonkey: | yes |
| [14:02:13] | justinh: | come to think about it.. how much BBC stuff do I actually watch? hmmm |
| [14:02:22] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: so 'uninstall' your TV by detuning it and unplugging the aerial lead. Bonus points for chopping the plug off! |
| [14:02:22] | justinh: | not top gear, anymore |
| [14:02:27] | justinh: | not doctor who, anymore |
| [14:02:29] | perlmonkey: | not much worth watching is there? considering all the money they get, billions |
| [14:02:35] | perlmonkey: | its quite appalling |
| [14:02:47] | perlmonkey: | most of it goes on gov propaganda |
| [14:02:56] | perlmonkey: | or lavish budgets for execs |
| [14:02:59] | justinh: | yes but like I say, if anybody thinks the gov will axe the fee when they cut off the BBC... |
| [14:03:05] | mycoDA: | top gear isnt payed for by the bbc – it pays them – just fyi |
| [14:03:11] | justinh: | *sadly* *mistaken* |
| [14:03:12] | perlmonkey: | phew |
| [14:03:19] | mycoDA: | cut off BBC???? |
| [14:03:22] | perlmonkey: | the only thing i watch on BBC is antiques roadshow |
| [14:03:38] | justinh: | mycoDA: yeah the TVL funds the BBC & part of Channel Four |
| [14:04:01] | justinh: | or rather, they collect money for the government & the gov gives the BBC money IIRC |
| [14:04:11] | perlmonkey: | the BBC even has a commercial arm eh, even tho its charter says not for profit, so if they're making profit why are we funding them still |
| [14:04:13] | mycoDA: | oh – cut it off from tvl funding and move it over to general govt funds? like here? |
| [14:04:28] | justinh: | mycoDA: no. uk gov want to force the BBC to be commercial |
| [14:04:45] | justinh: | whether you watch BBC stuff or not, or use their website, or radio stations.. it will be a BAD move |
| [14:04:45] | mycoDA: | roflmao |
| [14:04:52] | mycoDA: | tards |
| [14:04:53] | perlmonkey: | i heard... |
| [14:05:13] | mycoDA: | if australia can manage 5 non-commercial channels, surely u guys can manage 2 |
| [14:05:28] | hashbang: | justinh: the nice thing about the BBC is it sets a minimum standard for UK TV. Without it, everything would be far, far worse. |
| [14:05:33] | justinh: | mycoDA: how's all that paid for then? exporting shows? |
| [14:05:40] | mycoDA: | nope – tax |
| [14:05:55] | justinh: | hashbang: btw re Mysql.. I dunno if I said that or not.. |
| [14:05:56] | mycoDA: | income tax etc |
| [14:05:58] | perlmonkey: | that the guy responsible for the BBC licence stuff, gob minister is currently reviewing the whole thing and they have a number of proposals for revision licensing law..one option is a tax on internet connected COMPUTERS instead of TV's, basically an internet tax |
| [14:06:07] | perlmonkey: | that seems to be their popular choice |
| [14:06:17] | justinh: | hashbang: but I've known people have been looking at moving to an embedded DB for ages |
| [14:06:18] | seeker: | mycoDA: Bbc1, bbc2, bbc3, bbc4, cbbc, cbeebies, then a whole load of radio stations |
| [14:06:23] | hashbang: | mycoDA: the other thing is that the BBC is at arms length to the government, compared with 'state TV' |
| [14:06:23] | seeker: | Oh, and BBC news |
| [14:06:24] | mycoDA: | if ur gonna tax everyone, just put it in normal tax |
| [14:06:35] | justinh: | perlmonkey: that was Tessa Jowell, in the Labour Gov |
| [14:06:38] | mycoDA: | fair 1 |
| [14:06:39] | perlmonkey: | yeah its sneaky putting it in a separate tax as a "licence" |
| [14:06:52] | perlmonkey: | its bullshit, licences are for public safety |
| [14:07:08] | justinh: | government safety, you mean :) |
| [14:07:22] | perlmonkey: | these taxes hit the poor people |
| [14:07:25] | justinh: | they only entitle you to use broadcast material |
| [14:07:28] | perlmonkey: | cuz thats a lot of their income |
| [14:07:33] | mycoDA: | we have abc1 abc2 abc3 sbs1 sbs2 and shiploads of radio stations (one for every broadcast area on a continent, plus a few national ones) |
| [14:07:46] | justinh: | perlmonkey: and drink, and fags.. and gambling.. and sportswear. and SKY |
| [14:07:50] | perlmonkey: | :D |
| [14:08:13] | justinh: | council estate half a mile from where I live – EVERY house has a Sky dish with quad LNB |
| [14:08:20] | perlmonkey: | ok so if you opt out of the TV licence, here is what you have to do.. |
| [14:08:29] | justinh: | almost all of them have 4 coaxes coming from the LNB |
| [14:08:47] | perlmonkey: | 1. inform TVL you no longer need a licence via their website (basically this is a tactic they use to gather data on unlicensed properties in db) |
| [14:08:59] | perlmonkey: | 2. agree to a home visit by inspection officer |
| [14:09:05] | hashbang: | Arts Centre, Darlington30/04/2009Institute the "Sky test" on benefit claimants. So if you suck on the teat of Murdoch no benefits for you. |
| [14:09:10] | hashbang: | http://www.markthomasinfo.com/policies.asp |
| [14:09:10] | perlmonkey: | 3. agree to annual inspections thereafter |
| [14:09:11] | seeker: | perlmonkey: What? In the UK? |
| [14:09:14] | perlmonkey: | yes |
| [14:09:17] | mycoDA: | perlmonkey – you could get together with 100 people, have one of them pay a lic, put a myth machine there, and the rest can stream from it |
| [14:09:29] | perlmonkey: | once you let those guys in to inspect |
| [14:09:32] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: 3 is BS |
| [14:09:33] | seeker: | No you don't, you just don't buy a licence |
| [14:09:43] | perlmonkey: | they will use any trick possible to either get you to admit guilt, or plant false evidence |
| [14:09:50] | justinh: | plant? |
| [14:10:04] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: mate of mine just uses his TV for his VCR and video games. I think they came round once, saw the TV was detuned and unconnected and left him alone afterwards |
| [14:10:17] | perlmonkey: | ive seen all kinds of stuff.. those guys get £20 commission for each person they trap or get to buy a licence |
| [14:10:24] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: possibly your aggressive rather than co-operative stance has put you on their shitlist. |
| [14:10:27] | perlmonkey: | it stinks the whole company, Capita/TVL |
| [14:10:35] | justinh: | hashbang: yeah but theoretically every year you might have to prove it again |
| [14:10:38] | perlmonkey: | justinh: here is what they do.. |
| [14:10:52] | perlmonkey: | they will go to a TV that doesn't have an aerial and put some wire or a pen into the socket and try and get a signal |
| [14:11:09] | perlmonkey: | then say "its capable of receiving broadcasts" |
| [14:11:10] | justinh: | lol |
| [14:11:14] | justinh: | well yeah |
| [14:11:22] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: well, if you will keep it tuned... |
| [14:11:28] | justinh: | bit dumb of whoever leaves it unplugged not to properly disable it |
| [14:11:32] | justinh: | pfft |
| [14:11:48] | justinh: | desolder the tuna, innit guv |
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| [14:11:58] | perlmonkey: | if you have a TV guide |
| [14:11:59] | justinh: | hashbang: <3 Mark Thomas |
| [14:12:03] | perlmonkey: | they will even use that as evidence |
| [14:12:04] | perlmonkey: | yeah if its tuned, you're done for |
| [14:12:08] | hashbang: | justinh: said mate didn't even have to do that, just kept it detuned. |
| [14:12:10] | perlmonkey: | what a load of crap eh, Britain in 21st century |
| [14:12:16] | perlmonkey: | cant even watch tv |
| [14:12:23] | perlmonkey: | archaic laws from decades ago |
| [14:12:25] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: that's the legal definition of 'installed'. Deal with it. |
| [14:12:59] | seeker: | You dont even have to let them in, do you? |
| [14:13:00] | justinh: | but if the gov took it as a basic tax regardless of whether you had a teevee or not.. would that not be unfair on the 1% of people who didn't own/use a teevee? |
| [14:13:01] | perlmonkey: | yeah but they dont tell people this anywhere on their website |
| [14:13:12] | perlmonkey: | they only tell you during an inspection after they caution you |
| [14:13:15] | mycoDA: | no justinh |
| [14:13:16] | justinh: | ignorance is not a defence |
| [14:13:21] | hashbang: | justinh: a bit surprising, in a way, considering Thomas' left-wing sympathies, but I guess his hatred for Murdoch overrides! :-) |
| [14:13:30] | mycoDA: | it is a service provided to the whole of society |
| [14:13:40] | perlmonkey: | who actually is going to read all the fine print of the Communications Act 2003 eh |
| [14:13:40] | justinh: | hashbang: I think he has to go with the audience majority there ;) |
| [14:13:46] | mycoDA: | even if they didnt recieve info direct, they would get it 2nd hand |
| [14:14:04] | perlmonkey: | also.. |
| [14:14:25] | perlmonkey: | ive discovered that BBC law and CA is contrary to EU law and theres a case to answer I think in European Court |
| [14:14:29] | justinh: | anyway, I've had some bloody good nights out, thanks to the unique way the BBC is funded. Leave it alone! |
| [14:14:31] | mycoDA: | frankly it reeks of poll tax |
| [14:15:00] | justinh: | the free bar backstage at a few radio 1 shindigs saw me right :D |
| [14:15:01] | hashbang: | mycoDA: there was no way to legally avoid poll tax, there are many ways of avoiding TV license. |
| [14:15:08] | hashbang: | (legally) |
| [14:15:12] | perlmonkey: | ya |
| [14:15:17] | perlmonkey: | i remember the poll tax riots |
| [14:15:19] | mycoDA: | never had to here |
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| [14:15:31] | mycoDA: | have the medicare levy tho |
| [14:15:52] | mycoDA: | but is percentage based on income, and is lower if you have private insurance |
| [14:15:53] | justinh: | I remember the anti-war protests too |
| [14:16:00] | justinh: | and the anti tuition fees riots |
| [14:16:05] | justinh: | hmm.. fat load of good they did |
| [14:16:24] | mycoDA: | the anti war protests worked quite well |
| [14:16:29] | mycoDA: | for the latest ones |
| [14:16:36] | justinh: | yeah, they stopped the war really good |
| [14:16:38] | mycoDA: | vietnam too |
| [14:16:53] | justinh: | they totally put a block on the UK army going into Iraq |
| [14:17:21] | justinh: | and seeing tuition fees completely overturned by over a million people protesting.. brought a tear to my eye |
| [14:17:24] | hashbang: | justinh: marches are a great way of relieving one's pangs of conscience – "at least *I* did something", but that's about it |
| [14:17:31] | justinh: | OH WAIT. That didn't actually happen |
| [14:17:49] | sphery: | wagnerrp: It's not MySQL 5.5. Upgraded on a temporary system, and have no problems init'ing a new DB. |
| [14:17:51] | perlmonkey: | spotted FedEx on cctv |
| [14:17:56] | perlmonkey: | goodies arriving for me |
| [14:18:12] | justinh: | hashbang: yeah. very middle class of them |
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| [14:18:37] | justinh: | if we really want to do something, we need to take more than a day out |
| [14:18:51] | perlmonkey: | what can we do |
| [14:18:52] | justinh: | prepare for *weeks* of demoing |
| [14:19:00] | justinh: | maybe months |
| [14:19:03] | mycoDA: | have no idea what happened over there |
| [14:19:03] | hashbang: | justinh: I wonder how many bothered to write to their MP – still relatively useless, but perhaps more effective in changing opinions of people that can make a difference. |
| [14:19:05] | justinh: | knuckle down |
| [14:19:06] | perlmonkey: | we should say bollox to the bbc and all stop paying together |
| [14:19:35] | justinh: | I'm tired by the whole lot of it |
| [14:19:52] | mycoDA: | what would you suggest instead? |
| [14:20:02] | perlmonkey: | put all the £145's into a central fund, and buy up all the gov debt or lend it to them in bonds and all demand it back |
| [14:20:04] | justinh: | it's odd enough that the new gov doesn't overturn decisions the last lot made, despite them being vehemently opposed to it before they got into power |
| [14:20:31] | justinh: | I mean not just *odd*.. utterly inconceivable |
| [14:20:31] | perlmonkey: | bring the gov to its knees financially |
| [14:20:45] | perlmonkey: | i wrote to my MP last month |
| [14:20:57] | perlmonkey: | she writes back but shes not really interested in |
| [14:21:00] | justinh: | perlmonkey: because nobody wants to be THAT man. they make examples of some, not all – because they can't lock *everybody* up |
| [14:21:09] | perlmonkey: | true |
| [14:21:16] | hashbang: | justinh: bear in mind that the UK state is somewhat different from the UK government |
| [14:21:28] | perlmonkey: | very true justin |
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| [14:21:38] | justinh: | hashbang: yes but aren't we all led to believe gov makes policy? |
| [14:21:46] | mycoDA: | sweet – wrong addrss on an order fixed – belkin n300 router and sennheiser hd202 on way |
| [14:21:48] | hashbang: | justinh: also, some of the 'being vehemently opposed' stuff is just political pointscoring |
| [14:22:01] | mycoDA: | $70 for the pair :D |
| [14:22:02] | justinh: | hmm |
| [14:22:06] | perlmonkey: | the gov makes laws which are unlawful using acts of parliament that gain the force of law |
| [14:22:23] | mycoDA: | so lookin forward to having wireless N |
| [14:22:58] | justinh: | oh goody. I found some 20cm patch cables. better than 25cm :) |
| [14:23:12] | perlmonkey: | I'm gonna put mythtv on my bike |
| [14:23:23] | perlmonkey: | I got an ITX system |
| [14:23:24] | justinh: | hashbang: so who actually made policy for tution fees etc? |
| [14:23:43] | perlmonkey: | the gov |
| [14:23:49] | perlmonkey: | they just decided it themselves |
| [14:23:53] | justinh: | and wth is the point in a 'democracy' where politicians *say* they're opposed to X, but don't kill it when they get in? |
| [14:24:01] | perlmonkey: | probably the chancellor mostly was involved in that |
| [14:24:22] | mycoDA: | democracy? lmao |
| [14:24:25] | perlmonkey: | there should be a public consultation and not the gov's idea of one where they listen and then do the opposite |
| [14:24:32] | hashbang: | justinh: I don't think the Tories ever said they were opposed to fees |
| [14:24:41] | perlmonkey: | a real one, where people vote and decide what is best and each social group is represented |
| [14:24:48] | justinh: | I strongly suspect there's a little more too it.. like politicians just sign off stuff civil servants dream up 'for the good of the country' |
| [14:24:59] | perlmonkey: | definitely |
| [14:25:05] | hashbang: | justinh: Lib Dems don't have enough seats to overthrow it, but believe they've made a bad job slightly less painful |
| [14:25:08] | perlmonkey: | they're completely out of order in my opinion |
| [14:25:19] | perlmonkey: | an unlawful gov operating way outside its mandate |
| [14:25:27] | justinh: | it's not made any better when they hide some of the more contentiuous stuff away in late night voting sessions |
| [14:25:29] | perlmonkey: | always the same in UK, we stand for it every time |
| [14:25:38] | hashbang: | justinh: certainly a lot of stuff seems to originate from the civil service – look at how many times ID cards have come up. |
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| [14:26:01] | justinh: | did you look into whether your MP voted on the DEA ? |
| [14:26:08] | perlmonkey: | you know.. |
| [14:26:19] | justinh: | was it the DEA? Digital something or other Act |
| [14:26:23] | hashbang: | justinh: and, to be fair, if I was them, with targets to meet and budgets to justify, I'd probably want ID cards too, 'cos they might make my job easier. |
| [14:26:25] | perlmonkey: | if you watch parliament live on BBC, you can see many of these "laws" or acts, being passed into law, like trivally |
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| [14:26:38] | hashbang: | justinh: Digital Economy |
| [14:26:40] | perlmonkey: | they put it to the house and its read out, no-one even votes or questions it |
| [14:26:44] | justinh: | yeah that was it |
| [14:26:45] | hashbang: | justinh: most Tories voted for that too |
| [14:26:46] | perlmonkey: | a big list are read out |
| [14:26:54] | justinh: | my MP wasn't even THERE |
| [14:27:00] | perlmonkey: | so what are MP's for eh |
| [14:27:07] | justinh: | exactly |
| [14:27:25] | hashbang: | justinh: MPs trade votes with their opposite numbers |
| [14:27:40] | justinh: | so come on, Wolfie.. power to the people & all that. Saddle up with your brazier & placards.. we've got a lot of demoing to do. See you all in a few months |
| [14:27:50] | perlmonkey: | :) |
| [14:27:55] | hashbang: | justinh: so if someone on the other side was going to vote for, and you were going to vote against, you both agree to be absent. |
| [14:28:18] | justinh: | oh wait – you mean I'll actually have to inconvenience myself a little to change the status quo? Oh forget it, then! |
| [14:28:34] | perlmonkey: | what do you guys think of this "say No to AV" campaign, every household has got the glossy brochure.. some serious money behind that, cross party funded no doubt |
| [14:29:01] | perlmonkey: | i was outraged when i saw it |
| [14:29:01] | justinh: | just Cameron being on the 'No' side is enough to make me vote YES |
| [14:29:08] | perlmonkey: | haha yes |
| [14:29:10] | justinh: | methinks it may backfire |
| [14:29:22] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: nah, probably just Tory money |
| [14:29:24] | justinh: | sure, AV isn't perfect, but what we've got now ain't either |
| [14:29:29] | perlmonkey: | they're treating the public like idiots in that brochure and using scare tactics |
| [14:29:33] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: Lab and LD are pretty broke after the last election |
| [14:29:43] | perlmonkey: | hashbang you think so |
| [14:29:52] | perlmonkey: | probably is, i did wonder if labour was behind it |
| [14:29:53] | justinh: | and saying it'll help minority parties could backfire too |
| [14:30:01] | perlmonkey: | where did they even get OUR personal details from eh |
| [14:30:09] | perlmonkey: | is that even legal, data protection act etc |
| [14:30:12] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: mind you, Lab was shovelling taxpayer's money into the unions before it lost power |
| [14:30:19] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: Union Modernisation Fund |
| [14:30:26] | justinh: | because with FPTP people might vote tactically because there's no point voting for who they really want :D |
| [14:30:28] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: ostensibly to pay for better ICT for Unions |
| [14:30:34] | perlmonkey: | sucks |
| [14:30:49] | perlmonkey: | I tried to find out who is behind it, its a limited company |
| [14:31:07] | justinh: | whoah it's not just a simple leaflet drop? |
| [14:31:17] | perlmonkey: | im putting in a complaint to advertising standards and data protection commissioner |
| [14:31:26] | perlmonkey: | just cuz i like to complain a lot and tie up gov resources |
| [14:31:27] | perlmonkey: | :P |
| [14:31:40] | justinh: | I take it you opted out of the 'please sell my data' on the electoral register |
| [14:31:44] | perlmonkey: | no it has my full name and address on it |
| [14:31:54] | perlmonkey: | the only party which has that ive given it to, is Labour |
| [14:32:00] | justinh: | mind, not all councils allow that |
| [14:32:09] | perlmonkey: | thats why i did wonder was it labour, it looks very much like their style of mailing |
| [14:32:15] | perlmonkey: | as i had glossy's off them before |
| [14:32:18] | justinh: | with some, you're on the electoral roll there & they're entitled to sell your data |
| [14:32:20] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: it's probably just off the electoral roll |
| [14:32:24] | perlmonkey: | yes |
| [14:32:25] | justinh: | some councils let you opt out |
| [14:32:40] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: also, No2AV organised a bunch of the town hall debates |
| [14:32:53] | perlmonkey: | they have a picture... |
| [14:33:16] | perlmonkey: | of a race, with a guy winning the crossing line and an arrow, saying "wins but loses" and another guy at back saying "he wins" is it fair? |
| [14:33:26] | perlmonkey: | errr, YES we want people represented |
| [14:33:35] | perlmonkey: | not just big parties controlling parliament |
| [14:33:42] | justinh: | depends what the race rules were ;-) |
| [14:33:50] | perlmonkey: | heh |
| [14:33:59] | perlmonkey: | Labour and Tories are scared eh |
| [14:34:00] | justinh: | if it was 'be at the back when the photo is taken', he really did win :D |
| [14:34:12] | justinh: | Labour are mostly Pro AV I thought |
| [14:34:16] | perlmonkey: | they see this as the end of their monopoly of power, the "pendulum of politics" |
| [14:34:28] | hashbang: | justinh: no, Lab's pretty split on AV |
| [14:34:30] | perlmonkey: | smaller parties will be in power, and coalitions will become the norm |
| [14:34:38] | perlmonkey: | that means big gov can't operate again or force policies |
| [14:34:46] | hashbang: | justinh: no-one does tribalism better than Lab |
| [14:34:50] | justinh: | Ahh I just assumed cos Dud Milliamp was against it.. |
| [14:34:56] | hashbang: | justinh: aka "fuck the country if it's good for us" |
| [14:35:23] | justinh: | so would I, to be honest |
| [14:35:29] | justinh: | wouldn't you? |
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| [14:35:37] | perlmonkey: | are you guys gonna vote on it? |
| [14:35:41] | justinh: | totally |
| [14:35:49] | perlmonkey: | we actually have a referendum for ONCE |
| [14:35:55] | perlmonkey: | didnt get one on EU did we |
| [14:36:02] | hashbang: | justinh: nope, I've consistently voted for higher taxes for me, because I think it's in country's interest |
| [14:36:03] | justinh: | it's our local elections at the same time though |
| [14:36:12] | perlmonkey: | if it wasn't for lib dem we wouldn't got a referendum I doubt |
| [14:36:29] | ** hashbang will be voting too ** | |
| [14:36:43] | justinh: | don't expect the turnout will be very good |
| [14:36:55] | perlmonkey: | if the turnout is too low |
| [14:36:55] | hashbang: | justinh: nope, apathy may well win the day |
| [14:37:00] | perlmonkey: | can the gov decide the outcome? |
| [14:37:05] | justinh: | and that's another thing. voting should be compulsory |
| [14:37:08] | justinh: | perlmonkey: of course |
| [14:37:11] | perlmonkey: | :-/ |
| [14:37:15] | justinh: | see Ireland |
| [14:37:18] | perlmonkey: | i bet you they will fiddle this some how |
| [14:37:21] | hashbang: | justinh: also, pensioners are largely against AV, and *vote* |
| [14:37:26] | justinh: | oops, wrong result. rinse & repeat til they get the right answer |
| [14:37:28] | perlmonkey: | so it works in their interests |
| [14:37:37] | perlmonkey: | even AV itself is a compromise eh |
| [14:37:42] | perlmonkey: | we wanted a proper PR system like Europe |
| [14:37:48] | perlmonkey: | the Tories soon blocked that |
| [14:37:54] | ** justinh wonders if perlmonkey is really Canadian ;-) ** | |
| [14:37:59] | hashbang: | "no-one ever got rich by over-estimating the intelligence of the general public" |
| [14:37:59] | perlmonkey: | :D |
| [14:38:22] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: Lab were only offering AV too |
| [14:38:28] | perlmonkey: | ah well, i shall cast my vote for what its worth |
| [14:38:34] | perlmonkey: | oh |
| [14:38:40] | justinh: | I think most of us in society are pretty much only out for ourselves. UP TO A POINT. which is where we differ from politicians |
| [14:39:08] | justinh: | we don't think about the poor guy with a family to feed when we go for a job interview |
| [14:39:16] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: there was a principled move by Lucas, a Tory and a LD to get STV on the referendum, but I think that would have broken the coalition agreement, so even the LDs didn't vote for it. |
| [14:39:30] | justinh: | STV? |
| [14:39:39] | hashbang: | Single Transferable Vote |
| [14:39:46] | seeker: | Single transferable vote |
| [14:39:50] | justinh: | ah |
| [14:40:05] | justinh: | I'm all for PR myself |
| [14:40:35] | hashbang: | justinh: STV is probably what you want, then |
| [14:40:46] | perlmonkey: | justin me too |
| [14:40:48] | mycoDA: | you guys know the belkin F5D8236–4 ? |
| [14:41:37] | mycoDA: | any good? |
| [14:41:43] | justinh: | hashbang: no, PR is what I want |
| [14:41:58] | hashbang: | justinh: yeah, STV *is* PR |
| [14:42:06] | ** justinh is confused ** | |
| [14:42:07] | hashbang: | justinh: AV isn't |
| [14:42:12] | justinh: | I know that bit |
| [14:42:25] | justinh: | AV is *different*. That's enough for now |
| [14:42:29] | hashbang: | justinh: http://www.no2av.org/04/more-senior-labour-fi . . . te-no-to-av/ # 125 Lab MPs against AV |
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| [14:42:39] | mycoDA: | you mean you want our voting system? |
| [14:42:57] | perlmonkey: | initially Labour was for AV, or their leader was |
| [14:43:12] | justinh: | "hey", said the comfortably well off people, "do we want to sign our own redundancy notices?" |
| [14:43:18] | perlmonkey: | but back benchers started to speak against it |
| [14:43:22] | justinh: | "NO?!".. "OK then!" |
| [14:43:23] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: it was a Lab manifesto commitment at the last GE when they realised they might need to do a deal with the LDs. |
| [14:43:33] | perlmonkey: | ah |
| [14:43:47] | perlmonkey: | see how quickly they change |
| [14:43:48] | mycoDA: | in the lower house each electorate elects one person, with each candidate with the lowest votes being dropped out and all their votes assigned to the next person til there is one left |
| [14:43:51] | justinh: | it'll be like cows voting for steak night |
| [14:44:17] | mycoDA: | upper house is the same thing but done in state blocks, so you are voting for 15 or so people |
| [14:44:28] | perlmonkey: | like Lib Dem totally against tutition fees and even spoke about truthful and honest gov that keeps its promises |
| [14:44:36] | perlmonkey: | what do they do when in power, the opposite to what they promised |
| [14:44:41] | justinh: | methinks they all start out all dewy eyed & nice.. and then find they don't get anywhere til they start selling principles down the river |
| [14:44:52] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: Roy Jenkins did a big report on electoral reform years ago (Blair era). He proposed AV-plus, when Lab got a massive majority, got kicked into the long grass. |
| [14:45:16] | justinh: | like I said, it'd be like cows voting for steak night |
| [14:45:26] | perlmonkey: | yeah |
| [14:45:30] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: well, no up-front fees is a big improvement on the current system |
| [14:45:35] | justinh: | the only MPs *for* it are the ones who see themselves benefitting from it |
| [14:45:46] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: makes studying at uni pretty risk-free. If you don't earn enough, you won't pay anything back. |
| [14:46:03] | perlmonkey: | theres some benefits in the new system i agree, but its just the behaviour of lib dem that annoyed me |
| [14:46:09] | justinh: | uni education has been devalued though |
| [14:46:13] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: you could call the coalition gov's system a "graduate tax", and that'd be exactly what the NUS want. |
| [14:46:23] | perlmonkey: | if you have principles and make promises on a manifesto, you stick to it no matter what |
| [14:46:24] | justinh: | everyman+dog having a degree == worthless |
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| [14:46:42] | perlmonkey: | yes |
| [14:46:53] | hashbang: | justinh: yup, I'm not entirely sure my degree would be worth 27K in fees, plus probably another 12K in rent over 3 years. |
| [14:47:04] | seeker: | perlmonkey: The lib dems aren't "in power" |
| [14:47:05] | hashbang: | justinh: and 3 years lost earnings |
| [14:47:11] | justinh: | and the rest |
| [14:47:11] | seeker: | They are part of a coalition |
| [14:47:18] | perlmonkey: | same thing |
| [14:47:25] | seeker: | Not really |
| [14:47:37] | perlmonkey: | are they part of government and involved in policy making? |
| [14:47:42] | justinh: | hey, leave school, get a job, work like a bastard, save.. then go to uni :D |
| [14:47:49] | perlmonkey: | if yes, then they are IN power |
| [14:47:49] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: there are plenty of right wing tories bemoaning all the concessions they've given to the LDs in order to have the coalition |
| [14:47:54] | seeker: | They don't get a final say on things, they have to Collaberate with people who have different goals |
| [14:47:58] | justinh: | oh wait, you need a degree even to earn just £15k now |
| [14:48:14] | perlmonkey: | but surely |
| [14:48:15] | seeker: | And they aren't even the majority in the coalition |
| [14:48:28] | perlmonkey: | its within their power to stand by their principles and do everything to vote against it |
| [14:48:35] | perlmonkey: | or withdraw from coalition |
| [14:48:47] | justinh: | because even A levels are so devalued you can't guarantee they can read & write coherently :P |
| [14:49:11] | seeker: | perlmonkey: That wouldn't be good for the country. It would mean that we have a minority gov and nothing would get done |
| [14:49:25] | perlmonkey: | if the coalition wants to do something that is the opposite of what you promised voters on your manifesto, surely you have a problem and ethnical problem |
| [14:49:29] | hashbang: | justinh: the only conditions I could wholeheartedly recommend uni would be a) love of the subject, don't care about the financial costs (lucky you!) b) studying for an established vocation – law, medicine, dentistry etc (you'll easily make enough not to worry about the fees) |
| [14:49:34] | perlmonkey: | you shouldn't be involved in that gov |
| [14:49:45] | seeker: | LD voters are just p***ed off because they no longer get to say "well, I didn't vote for them" |
| [14:50:00] | justinh: | no word of a lie.. new graduate intake in my last job.. had to look for a place to live. I suggested asking a few letting agents over the phone. "Oh. How do I find out their phone numbers?" |
| [14:50:26] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: if they vote against, the Tories' policy would have gone through anyway, and unamended. Furthermore, they'd lose any power to amend anything else. |
| [14:50:28] | perlmonkey: | i didnt vote for any of them, cuz they're all the same |
| [14:50:46] | justinh: | how the ****ing **** do you get a degree with that kind of gap in your common sense?! |
| [14:51:01] | perlmonkey: | if the lib dem had withdrawn from coalition what would happen? |
| [14:51:07] | perlmonkey: | would labour have been offered it? |
| [14:51:09] | justinh: | another election |
| [14:51:10] | perlmonkey: | or a new vote |
| [14:51:12] | perlmonkey: | oh |
| [14:51:13] | seeker: | perlmonkey: No, it's not an ethical issue, they have things they would like to see happen. They promised that if they won they would do certain things. They didn't win. |
| [14:51:15] | ** hashbang voted LD and is happy they're doing almost as good a job as the number of seats they won permits. ** | |
| [14:51:19] | hashbang: | contrarian, I know. |
| [14:51:39] | seeker: | No, the conservatives would have tried a minority government |
| [14:51:39] | perlmonkey: | they didnt promise if they won |
| [14:51:50] | justinh: | yeah I'll vote LD again. they're still the lesser of all the evils |
| [14:51:56] | perlmonkey: | they promised if they were able to form a gov, which they have done, allbeit in partnership with tories |
| [14:52:00] | justinh: | still smarts though |
| [14:52:19] | perlmonkey: | so they're still accountable on their manifesto |
| [14:52:23] | justinh: | but yeh – make politicians legally accountable for the promises they make! |
| [14:52:28] | justinh: | muhahaha |
| [14:52:32] | perlmonkey: | it doesn't go out of the window or be torn up because they're power sharing |
| [14:52:32] | justinh: | DEATH TO THE LIARS! |
| [14:52:41] | seeker: | perlmonkey: So every party in a coalition should hold up all of it's promises, even if it conflicts with the other parties in the coalition? |
| [14:52:51] | perlmonkey: | definitely |
| [14:53:03] | hashbang: | justinh: I'm somewhat concerned about the housing benefit changes (though I don't see why someone should have a right to live in an expensive place in London indefinitely if they're not having any luck finding work) and I think the withdrawal of EMA is short-sighted. |
| [14:53:11] | seeker: | Even when they conflict with the other parties views? |
| [14:53:28] | seeker: | How do you both abolish and raise tuition fees? |
| [14:53:32] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: well done, you're now a protest movement rather than a political party. |
| [14:53:33] | perlmonkey: | well in that case they can't be in coalition with such a conflicting party surely |
| [14:53:55] | seeker: | perlmonkey: If they agreed on everything they would be the same party |
| [14:53:57] | perlmonkey: | but ultimately the public should decide these issues |
| [14:53:58] | justinh: | they made compromises |
| [14:54:01] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: no influence, no power to make things better (or less worse, at least) |
| [14:54:02] | perlmonkey: | if we had a proper gov it wouldn't have to be factions in a coalition fighting |
| [14:54:05] | perlmonkey: | the public would get proper consultations and decide |
| [14:54:12] | justinh: | they had to give some things away to get some of the things they wanted |
| [14:54:19] | justinh: | the Conservatives,less so |
| [14:54:23] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: even parties are themselves coalitions, though. |
| [14:54:23] | perlmonkey: | this gov is dysfunctional and does not represent the people |
| [14:54:52] | justinh: | if the C's had got 55% of the vote then you could say there was 45% of the people unrepresented LOL |
| [14:54:52] | seeker: | perlmonkey: You want STV though? That will lead to more coalitions |
| [14:54:58] | perlmonkey: | yes |
| [14:55:07] | perlmonkey: | but surely.. |
| [14:55:12] | seeker: | Or more minority governments |
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| [14:55:26] | seeker: | Minority governments are lame ducks |
| [14:55:31] | seeker: | We don't want those |
| [14:55:31] | perlmonkey: | if we had a coalition that was lots of smaller parties and no one or two big parties dominating it, the gov would vote things properly |
| [14:55:41] | perlmonkey: | and using proper public consultations |
| [14:55:42] | seeker: | And coalitions require compromise |
| [14:55:52] | justinh: | seeker: I was led to believe it would lead to more babies being still-born, and the moon swallowing up all the motorways. And bad stuff |
| [14:56:09] | seeker: | We can't close the schools every other Thursday for a referendum |
| [14:56:13] | perlmonkey: | people won't always agree on things |
| [14:56:16] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: if there was a minority Tory govt, they would have probably been ineffective, eventually there would have been a crisis, Govt would have called new GE, Tories would be the only party with the funds to fight again so soon, probably would have ended up with an outright Tory majority. |
| [14:56:22] | perlmonkey: | thats what voting is for |
| [14:56:31] | justinh: | perlmonkey: anre more to the point *parties* don't always agree on things either |
| [14:56:40] | perlmonkey: | exactly |
| [14:56:49] | justinh: | hell most gov policy is voted for by all the MPs who bother to turn up |
| [14:56:50] | perlmonkey: | this system doesn't work, parties deciding things FOR the people |
| [14:57:02] | perlmonkey: | the student protests showed that |
| [14:57:17] | seeker: | perlmonkey: You vote for a party that is closest aligned to your views. They then do the best they can to get those policies implemented |
| [14:57:19] | justinh: | they didn't show any after effects though |
| [14:57:25] | justinh: | nobody took any notice |
| [14:57:26] | hashbang: | most of the protesters are being manipulated, and used as pawns |
| [14:57:54] | perlmonkey: | seeker thats how it should work, but it seldom does, cuz the parties now either do the opposite, or just do things and make policies without any consultation or a proper one |
| [14:57:55] | justinh: | we all shrugged, tutted at the violent once & went about our ordinary 'I'm not a student so WTH' business |
| [14:58:20] | seeker: | perlmonkey: That is how it has worked now though. Lib deems have a smaller |
| [14:58:26] | perlmonkey: | surely if they just asked people, it would be better |
| [14:58:34] | justinh: | if enough of us sat up, actually DID something.. maybe only for a few days... |
| [14:58:36] | perlmonkey: | if they acted on peoples wishes |
| [14:58:43] | seeker: | Number of seats than torys, so they did the best they could |
| [14:58:46] | justinh: | perlmonkey: they do. their sponsors |
| [14:58:52] | perlmonkey: | heh |
| [14:58:58] | perlmonkey: | Tories do what rich people want eh |
| [14:58:59] | justinh: | hey, psst, we paid £50k to your party |
| [14:59:05] | perlmonkey: | thats why fox hunting is being repealed |
| [14:59:08] | perlmonkey: | ban |
| [14:59:27] | justinh: | hmm |
| [14:59:29] | perlmonkey: | Labour has the trade unions |
| [14:59:39] | perlmonkey: | stinks |
| [14:59:53] | justinh: | personally, when the NHS reforms come in, we're going to have a bit more to worry about than the spilt blood of a few foxes |
| [15:00:01] | hashbang: | perlmonkey: same with Labour; Ecclestone, Hinduja bros, Mittal |
| [15:00:12] | perlmonkey: | phew |
| [15:00:22] | perlmonkey: | i better do some work |
| [15:00:24] | sphery: | any Arch users here (who are using a newer version of Arch with MySQL 5.5?) |
| [15:00:25] | perlmonkey: | before i get fired |
| [15:00:39] | justinh: | I better go home :-) easier to look busy there |
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| [15:00:53] | sphery: | just looking to get some configuration information--won't require messing up your system |
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| [15:01:18] | perlmonkey: | i enjoyed our political discussion guys, didnt think you could do politics without it ending in a row ;-) |
| [15:01:24] | perlmonkey: | its getting moist isnt it |
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| [15:01:56] | perlmonkey: | looking forward to my afternoon ride back on electric bike |
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| [15:08:23] | skd5aner: | ah – yesterday was the date the skynet became self-aware and launched an attack against us... cool |
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| [15:12:06] | perlmonkey: | what happens in 2012 |
| [15:12:12] | perlmonkey: | isn't the world supposed to end |
| [15:18:07] | kwmonroe (kwmonroe!~kwmonroe@32.97.110.58) has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) | |
| [15:20:11] | tmkt: | people have another birthday |
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| [15:33:08] | mycoDA: | lol perlmonkey – you have an ebike too? |
| [15:33:23] | mycoDA: | mine is a chopper – looked well wicked |
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| [15:37:04] | perlmonkey: | :D yes |
| [15:37:13] | perlmonkey: | a chopper woah |
| [15:37:14] | mycoDA: | what style? |
| [15:37:25] | perlmonkey: | I used to ride a raleigh chopper back in the day ;-) |
| [15:37:32] | mycoDA: | lol |
| [15:37:46] | perlmonkey: | mine is a MTB, self-build, will show you a pics in bit when i get back from post office |
| [15:37:54] | mycoDA: | this thing is 7 foot long |
| [15:37:59] | perlmonkey: | woah |
| [15:38:02] | perlmonkey: | pics? :D |
| [15:38:22] | perlmonkey: | I just love my bike I'm never off it |
| [15:38:44] | mycoDA: | jus wait – ff has locked up lol |
| [15:38:57] | perlmonkey: | ok got to post some stuff over the road so back in 15 mins or so |
| [15:39:44] | mycoDA: | jus restarting it |
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| [15:45:38] | hashbang: | http://imgur.com/a/hgmbQ # No2AV leaflet fisked |
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| [15:48:17] | mycoDA: | not the worlds best picture perlmonkey but http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/259276359 . . . 8_z.jpg?zz=1 is it |
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| [15:55:33] | perlmonkey: | wooah |
| [15:55:42] | perlmonkey: | incredible, imagine riding that :D |
| [15:56:13] | hashbang: | http://freedom.libdems.org.uk/ # Was the URL for the proposed 'Freedom Bill', now returning "403 Forbidden", 6 months after I reported it to my MP! |
| [15:56:41] | perlmonkey: | http://gallery.amorphix.net/main.php?g2_itemId=3707 |
| [15:56:43] | perlmonkey: | that's mine |
| [15:57:16] | perlmonkey: | http://gallery.amorphix.net/main.php?g2_itemId=3579 <- another shot with old tyres on |
| [15:57:39] | perlmonkey: | http://gallery.amorphix.net/main.php?g2_itemId=3760 <-- controller |
| [15:58:30] | perlmonkey: | hashbang ha! |
| [15:58:38] | ** wagnerrp never understood 'chopper' bicycles ** | |
| [15:58:52] | perlmonkey: | you never had a raleigh chopper then? |
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| [15:59:12] | perlmonkey: | ive never been on a bike that's as comfortable or smooth a ride as that bike |
| [16:00:08] | wagnerrp: | its man powered, its not supposed to be comfortable or smooth |
| [16:00:22] | perlmonkey: | heh |
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| [16:00:38] | wagnerrp: | and either way, i cant believe that theyre better than the recumbents |
| [16:00:45] | wagnerrp: | (of course ive ridden neither) |
| [16:00:49] | perlmonkey: | i never tried a recumbent would love to |
| [16:01:10] | ** wagnerrp prefers the mountain type ** | |
| [16:03:02] | ** perlmonkey is preparing to build 2nd electric bike, this time a smaller 20" folding bike ** | |
| [16:05:02] | perlmonkey: | wagnerrp do you cycle |
| [16:05:23] | wagnerrp: | not in several years |
| [16:05:44] | wagnerrp: | went on a cross-europe bike trip in high school, that was the last significant amount |
| [16:08:15] | perlmonkey: | I only got back into it recently hadn't cycled since my school years |
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| [16:17:30] | sphery: | wagnerrp: think I figured it out... it's a combination of stupid configuration (using an over-privileged MySQL user) and a Qt bug. |
| [16:17:37] | sphery: | (the Arch failure) |
| [16:17:51] | sphery: | pretty sure he's using root mysql user |
| [16:19:59] | wagnerrp: | instead of mythtv:mythtv? |
| [16:20:41] | sphery: | yeah |
| [16:20:54] | sphery: | or else has a different database that has tables that are visible to user mythtv |
| [16:21:30] | sphery: | basically, we have code that's using QSqlDatabase::tables() to see if there's > 1 table, and using that to determine if we have a valid schema. |
| [16:21:52] | sphery: | for some brain-dead reason, that function seems to return all visible tables in all databases |
| [16:22:17] | sphery: | so if you're root or if your user has permissions to other db's, mythtv doesn't know that there's no schema |
| [16:22:20] | sphery: | it |
| [16:22:39] | sphery: | s an easy fix, though, since I already have code that checks which tables are in /our/ database :) |
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| [16:23:50] | sphery: | unfortunately, it's one of those easy fixes that required a full day of system reconfiguration and testing to figure out what was happening |
| [16:24:07] | wagnerrp: | remember that DeleteThread i wrote a while back? |
| [16:24:34] | wagnerrp: | if its not referenced outside the cpp file, is there any problem just keeping it in the cpp file? |
| [16:25:06] | wagnerrp: | seems the fact that its a QThread means it needs a moc, which needs a header file to generate |
| [16:25:27] | wagnerrp: | or at least thats my best guess |
| [16:25:37] | wagnerrp: | failing, complaining about vtable something |
| [16:27:47] | perlmonkey: | mythtv can be a bitch to get configured and up and running, but once its done, its a joy to use |
| [16:27:56] | sphery: | no, should be fine to keep it constrained to one cpp file |
| [16:30:41] | sphery: | grr... easy to fix on master |
| [16:30:45] | sphery: | not so much on -fixes |
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| [16:31:58] | sphery: | can't use DBUtil in -fixes since it's in libmyth, not libmythdb (where mythdbcon.cpp exists). In unstable, mythdbcon.cpp and dbutil.cpp are both in libmythbase. |
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| [17:08:54] | wagnerrp: | well i changed it so the class definition was in the header, still getting vtable issues |
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| [17:19:24] | sphery: | yay, think I have it fixed |
| [17:19:43] | ** perlmonkey is happy to be able to watch mythcctv AND listen to music at same time ** | |
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| [17:20:06] | sphery: | and turns out both -fixes and unstable need the same fix--can't use dbutil, anyway, since it uses MSqlQuery, which can't be used until we have a schema, so can't use it to determine whether we have a schema :) |
| [17:20:42] | wagnerrp: | mythcctv? |
| [17:20:45] | sphery: | for a while looked like it would be a /very/ ugly fix, but on the pretty scale, it's only about 3 steps to ugly |
| [17:20:53] | wagnerrp: | mythzoneminder? |
| [17:21:08] | perlmonkey: | hehe mythtv really but used for cctv cam |
| [17:21:25] | wagnerrp: | why not mythzoneminder? |
| [17:21:38] | wagnerrp: | (i think) it provides live feeds |
| [17:21:39] | perlmonkey: | i dont need much really, just to be able to see close from one camera |
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| [17:23:45] | wagnerrp: | sphery: looks like any Qt subclass needs to be defined in a header file, with the Q_OBJECT macro |
| [17:24:02] | wagnerrp: | qmake wont work its magic on classes defined in source files |
| [17:24:35] | sphery: | ahh |
| [17:24:40] | sphery: | glad you figured it out |
| [17:25:00] | wagnerrp: | well i _think_ i figured it out |
| [17:25:06] | wagnerrp: | i already did this once, and it didnt work |
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| [17:25:18] | wagnerrp: | but i think it didnt work because i needed to delete and regenerate the Makefile |
| [17:26:12] | sphery: | ah, yeah--I hate those issues. You fix it, but the process you use to test the fix isn't valid, so you don't realize it and keep working on it. |
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| [17:33:55] | sphery: | yay, got this one figured out, so I can boot back to my not-borked-by-MySQL-5.5 file system |
| [17:37:20] | wagnerrp: | that was it |
| [17:37:35] | wagnerrp: | so... no QObject classes defined in the source files |
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| [17:43:10] | sphery: | and now tempting fate--put the side back on the case of my dev box to see if it's heat causing the SATA fial |
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| [19:26:48] | kenni: | sphery: FYI, I'm running Arch on my dev box and I haven't seen that error before...so you're most likely right about the use of an over-privileged SQL user. |
| [19:28:05] | kenni: | sphery: And I've just tested with an week-old master and a clean DB – it didn't give me the error. |
| [19:28:28] | sphery: | cool... yeah, even though the howto says to make a mysql.txt that uses mythtv/mythtv, it's possible under certain circumstances that can be ignored |
| [19:28:49] | sphery: | so I think the user just types in the root user and password |
| [19:29:05] | sphery: | or it's possible some may have additional db's to which they've granted mythtv user perms |
| [19:29:16] | sphery: | hard part was figuring out how to make it fail, though |
| [19:29:19] | sphery: | glad I finally got there |
| [19:29:22] | kenni: | :) |
| [19:29:53] | sphery: | anyway, thanks for the confirmation--and for actually testing a new db init on arch |
| [19:30:32] | kenni: | np, it was a 1 minute test as everything was already in place |
| [19:31:05] | sphery: | heh, 1-minute test, then some time to restore the real db? |
| [19:31:06] | sphery: | :) |
| [19:31:18] | kenni: | there's no real db at the moment |
| [19:32:30] | sphery: | ah, man... if my push were 1hr, 20min, 4sec earlier, it would have been a cool timestamp: 2011-04–20T12:24:24 would have been 2011-04–20T11-04–20 |
| [19:33:00] | kenni: | heh |
| [19:33:48] | sphery: | guess I could aim for a mirror-imaged 2011-04–20T20:04:11 tonight |
| [19:34:52] | wagnerrp: | i broke firefox |
| [19:34:55] | wagnerrp: | it wont minimize |
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| [20:12:48] | justinh: | welcome to my world |
| [20:12:57] | justinh: | I nigh on had to reboot today to cure it |
| [20:13:52] | wagnerrp: | it was caused by github, and large javascript managed code files |
| [20:15:35] | justinh: | yeah I normally run into problems with javascript pages, especially component suppliers' ones |
| [20:16:44] | justinh: | maybe I just need as much RAM as the people who develop the sites ;) |
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| [20:27:51] | sphery: | wagnerrp: so I'm starting to think that the SATA cable was the problem |
| [20:27:59] | sphery: | (likely the connectors on the cable, actually) |
| [20:28:38] | sphery: | haven't seen the errors again since swapping cables--and I put the case side back on, today, so heat is looking less likely to be the cause |
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| [20:28:51] | sphery: | *fingers crossed* |
| [20:29:08] | wagnerrp: | well im starting into getting the jobqueue stuff working |
| [20:29:57] | sphery: | nice |
| [20:30:14] | wagnerrp: | seems i need to merge first though |
| [20:30:18] | sphery: | I need to look at your parser branch and update my logpath patch for it |
| [20:30:21] | wagnerrp: | my test database is one schema ahead |
| [20:31:49] | sphery: | I also need to finish up my new mythui-capable schema upgrade wizard... markk's new change that causes it to not update the screen until later makes the db backup very ugly--the window gets moved from where it appears, but it hadn't been painted, yet, so it "copies" of section of whatever was on your screen to the upper-left |
| [20:32:37] | sphery: | (not something you'd notice if mythtv were the only thing on screen or were full screen, but since it's not a painted window, it could make it look like the system locked up--since nothing you see is clickable) |
| [20:34:33] | sphery: | or, if you had nothing on screen, you see nothing |
| [20:39:22] | sphery: | got my new computer with a mobo with integrated SATA support--for replacing my remote backend, which is a PCI-only mobo. Unfortunately, the CPU is more powerful than any other in my house (even my master backend and my frontend machines) |
| [20:39:28] | sphery: | so a total waste of a cpu on it |
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| [20:41:25] | sphery: | I ended up getting an Athlon II 255 and my MBE has a 240 and my frontend has a 250, so it's not /that/ big a difference (2.8GHz, 3.0GHz, and 3.1GHz), but still seems wrong |
| [20:41:42] | sphery: | (The 255 with a combo for memory was cheaper than a 240 + memory) |
| [20:42:01] | sphery: | actually, 240 was OEM, so would have needed a cooler, too |
| [20:47:29] | wagnerrp: | so swap the chips? |
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| [20:50:43] | sphery: | yeah, actually considering that... though it's probably more dangerous than it's worth (not to mention a pain cleaning up the old thermal compound) |
| [20:55:36] | wagnerrp: | dangerous how? |
| [20:55:53] | wagnerrp: | ive never even managed to crush an exposed core, much less one with a heat spreader |
| [20:56:04] | sphery: | more from the pin/socket side |
| [20:56:23] | sphery: | though I've only broken a single pin in all my years--and have swapped a lot of cpus |
| [20:56:36] | wagnerrp: | although... i have ripped chips out of the socket without opening the slide |
| [20:56:56] | wagnerrp: | i always make sure to twist an old heatsink before removing it now |
| [20:58:00] | sphery: | yeah, I'm actually thinking that this chip is one that got ripped out of the socket with the HS/fan due to overly-adhesive thermal paste (I should have run the computer to warm it up, first) |
| [20:58:44] | sphery: | so, I think it was weakened/slightly bent |
| [20:59:22] | sphery: | then when I was swapping it out, I really bent it, then it broke :( |
| [20:59:32] | sphery: | this = the one I've ever broken |
| [20:59:46] | sphery: | the ones I might swap have "clean" histories :) |
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| [21:11:22] | wagnerrp: | well with any luck, LGA replaces PGA and such problems become impossible |
| [21:17:01] | sphery: | heh, yeah, then instead of breaking the $60 CPU, I'll break the $60 mobo |
| [21:17:41] | sphery: | (though I will admit for people who spend way too much on CPUs, LGA is definitely a good thing :) |
| [21:18:52] | wagnerrp: | well since the pins are recessed within the socket, and connection is contact only rather than friction |
| [21:19:05] | wagnerrp: | its much more unlikely a LGA pin would be damaged than PGA |
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| [21:26:24] | sphery: | yeah, they're probably much more reliable, now, too, than when Intel rolled out their first ones--there were a lot of reports of high failure rates |
| [21:26:57] | sphery: | that may have been more fear of change than anything, though |
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| [21:38:35] | justinh: | breaking pins? amateurs. LOL |
| [21:39:07] | justinh: | says the guy who wrecked countless Sparc3 chips in his day. ahem |
| [21:39:24] | justinh: | no ZIF sockets in Sparc stations :-\ |
| [21:41:54] | wagnerrp: | i liked the old slot P2s and P3s |
| [21:42:11] | wagnerrp: | i never did figure out how to detach those retention clips |
| [21:42:20] | wagnerrp: | usually took me about five minutes to pull one out |
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| [22:22:10] | sphery: | justinh: heh, were you supposed to use a mallet with the sparc processors |
| [22:22:59] | sphery: | guess that would be a MIF socket... Mallet-Insertion-Force |
| [22:23:19] | sphery: | and I'm sure people would get mif'ed when they broke the cpus |
| [22:24:38] | wagnerrp: | woor or rubber? |
| [22:25:49] | iamlindoro: | definitely woor |
| [22:25:56] | awalls: | I was thinking wool |
| [22:25:58] | sphery: | heh |
| [22:26:00] | wagnerrp: | *wood |
| [22:26:23] | sphery: | I'm thinking a nice steel mallet--like a stonemason would use |
| [22:26:59] | iamlindoro: | I thought those guys used wooden paddles |
| [22:27:01] | sphery: | definitely not a meat-tenderizing mallet |
| [22:27:10] | iamlindoro: | and wore fezes |
| [22:27:24] | sphery: | Who keeps the martians under wraps? |
| [22:27:28] | iamlindoro: | they do |
| [22:27:29] | iamlindoro: | they do |
| [22:27:32] | sphery: | heh |
| [22:27:38] | awalls: | gated |
| [22:27:58] | sphery: | now I have to tell MythTV to allow re-record of that episode |
| [22:28:29] | iamlindoro: | Most feasible explanation of Steve Gutenburg's stardom ever |
| [22:28:36] | sphery: | heh |
| [22:29:00] | sphery: | The Simpsons has real answers to the questions that no one else dares answer... |
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| [22:33:38] | wagnerrp: | what was that episode, like mid 90s? |
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| [22:40:08] | sphery: | Seems it was S6E8 from Jan 8, 1995 – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_the_Great |
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| [22:53:27] | J-e-f-f-A: | Is it a bad idea (or un-necessary) to run "optimize_mythdb_0.24.pl" when your DB is on a SSD ? |
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| [22:53:50] | J-e-f-f-A: | I currently run it daily, but just swapped to an SSD on Friday. |
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| [22:56:14] | sphery: | optimize_mythdb.pl does a repair, optimize, and analyze on all tables. In theory, repair shouldn't do anything most of the time (other than read the table and indices). Because of our usage, optimize and analyze don't typically do much, either--if used frequently. So, I'd say it shouldn't hurt. |
| [22:56:39] | sphery: | but I won't guarantee it, so if it burns out your SSD, don't ask for replacement cost :) |
| [22:58:49] | J-e-f-f-A: | sphery: Cool, thanks. ;-) It's a good drive – an OCZ Vertex 2 – and has a 3-year warranty... And all the reviews i've read for this series (Vertex 2) have been awesome... So that eases my mind. ;-) |
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| [23:00:16] | J-e-f-f-A: | sphery: it's a 60GB drive, so I'm guessing it's really 64GB internally, and they use 4GB for 'trim' functions... It's lightning fast – most mythweb pages are near-instant now... And Myth overall is much more responsive. |
| [23:00:22] | darkdrgn3k: | hey, is there a way to run a command after a recording is done... looking to send a poweroff command to the receiver to save power |
| [23:01:15] | sphery: | J-e-f-f-A: cool... I was impressed at how fast mythweb got when I moved my mbe from an Athlon XP 2400+ to an Athlon II X2 250 |
| [23:01:47] | J-e-f-f-A: | darkdrgn3k: Looks like you want something like the "Recording finished" event |
| [23:01:59] | wagnerrp: | darkdrgn3k: yes, see the event system |
| [23:02:05] | J-e-f-f-A: | darkdrgn3k: That also means you'll have to turn the receiver on with your channel-change script. |
| [23:02:12] | sphery: | darkdrgn3k: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythTV_System_Events + http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Category:MythTV_System_Event_Scripts |
| [23:02:16] | darkdrgn3k: | J-e-f-f-A, : already have that... |
| [23:02:19] | J-e-f-f-A: | ;-) |
| [23:02:26] | sphery: | where the latter page is linked so you can post your script when you're done :) |
| [23:02:33] | darkdrgn3k: | awsome |
| [23:02:51] | darkdrgn3k: | whats the best way to powerone slave backens |
| [23:03:02] | darkdrgn3k: | wol or rtc |
| [23:03:11] | sphery: | feel free to ask for wiki instructions if you need help getting it set up in the right category and with a code box and such |
| [23:03:26] | sphery: | for slaves, always use wol |
| [23:03:35] | sphery: | and let the master backend wake and sleep them |
| [23:03:59] | sphery: | otherwise, when they're powered off, the master reschedules as if the slaves tuners were non-existent |
| [23:04:12] | darkdrgn3k: | there is no way to turn "off" the HDPVR boxes (power cycle if they get locked up) remotly right |
| [23:04:21] | sphery: | master only considers sleeping slave tuners when it tells the slave to sleep |
| [23:04:36] | J-e-f-f-A: | sphery: Yeah, you have less channels than me though, right? My channel table has 554 entries. ;-) |
| [23:05:13] | J-e-f-f-A: | darkdrgn3k: x-10 modules? ;-) |
| [23:05:14] | sphery: | darkdrgn3k: heh, there's the old-tech way... a $5 lamp timer set to turn off the power to the HD-PVR for a few minutes per day at a time when the tuner is very unlikely to be needed |
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| [23:05:26] | sphery: | J-e-f-f-A: yeah, a /lot/ fewer channels than you |
| [23:05:40] | sphery: | I was just saying that I appreciate how an upgrade can have a major impact |
| [23:05:53] | darkdrgn3k: | sphery, : actualy i have a DRY RELAY usb phidget kicking around... im thiking to get creative with it :-P |
| [23:06:07] | J-e-f-f-A: | sphery: My listings page now loads in about 4 seconds. (554 channels!) — it used to take 20–30 at least... |
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| [23:06:19] | sphery: | Beirdo is actually thinking of coming up with a USB-controled power relay or something for his HD-PVR |
| [23:06:31] | sphery: | might want to see how serious he is when he's around |
| [23:07:06] | wagnerrp: | darkdrgn3k: [R] isnt around currently, but he has his HDPVR hooked up to an 'intelligent' power strip |
| [23:07:06] | darkdrgn3k: | http://www.phidgets.com/products.php?product_id=1014 |
| [23:07:09] | sphery: | J-e-f-f-A: wow, 20–30s for listings would be annoying |
| [23:07:26] | J-e-f-f-A: | 20 years ago when I ran a BBS on my TI99/4A, I had a solid-state relay hanging off the "Carrier Detect" line of my modem – it turned on my monitor when someone dialed in so I could watch what they were doing... ;-) |
| [23:07:34] | wagnerrp: | it has a primary user, and multiple accessory users |
| [23:07:57] | wagnerrp: | when the primary user turns off (his backend shutting down), all accessories are powered off as well |
| [23:07:59] | darkdrgn3k: | J-e-f-f-A, LMAO |
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| [23:08:52] | J-e-f-f-A: | And back then, I could hear the 15Khz horizontal sync from a mile away, so it was easy to tell when someone dialed in, even from another room. ;-) |
| [23:09:25] | ** awalls remembers his TI-99/4A ** | |
| [23:09:57] | awalls: | Excellent teaching manual for BASIC. First programming I ever learned. |
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| [23:10:56] | wagnerrp: | J-e-f-f-A: that sounds like me and CDMA |
| [23:10:58] | awalls: | I must have been in 5th or 6th grade. $DIETY, I feel old now.... |
| [23:10:58] | J-e-f-f-A: | awalls: me too. ;-) But I learned on a TRS-80 Model III in the 9th grade initially... ;-) And totally modified the BBS program (which was BASIC) to my liking. ;-) |
| [23:11:11] | wagnerrp: | i can tell when any mobile phone is going to ring, about a second and a half before it does |
| [23:12:17] | J-e-f-f-A: | wagnerrp: Hehehe... that's cool.... I can't do that – but the old AT&T TDMA would make computer speakers and speakerphones 'chirp' if they were near them when ringing or communicating with the towers... GSM not so much... |
| [23:12:31] | awalls: | " I hear phone calls .. they're everywhere...." |
| [23:12:53] | J-e-f-f-A: | "Will somebody answer that dang phone!!!" ;-) |
| [23:12:56] | wagnerrp: | maybe its TDMA, its one of those cellular techs |
| [23:13:07] | sphery: | wagnerrp: I think that's called EHS (Electromagnetic HyperSensitivity)... You should make all your neighbors and public areas around you shut off their wifi, etc. |
| [23:13:33] | ** J-e-f-f-A hopes wagnerrp doesn't move into his neighborhood... ;-) ** | |
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| [23:13:45] | ** J-e-f-f-A loves his electronics. ;-) ** | |
| [23:13:51] | sphery: | today's GSM stuff still does the chirp with speakers |
| [23:14:17] | wagnerrp: | when the phone kicks into high power mode, you can hear the signal modulated on fans, CRTs, speakers, anything electronic outputting any audible amount of noise |
| [23:14:36] | J-e-f-f-A: | sphery: btw – this SSD came with a neat sticker that says "My SSD is faster than your HDD" — hehehehe... |
| [23:14:46] | sphery: | heh, like a bumper sticker? |
| [23:14:53] | sphery: | or just an SSD sticker? |
| [23:14:54] | wagnerrp: | J-e-f-f-A: you know how you can pick your name being said out of a noisy room? |
| [23:15:02] | wagnerrp: | well somehow, that sound got programmed into me |
| [23:15:05] | awalls: | My HDD is bigger than your SDD... |
| [23:15:12] | awalls: | /SSD/ |
| [23:15:22] | sphery: | My HDD sometimes moves at >500mph |
| [23:15:28] | J-e-f-f-A: | sphery: Nah, about 2.5" wide, 1.5" high oval, like a cartoon 'speech bubble'. ;-) |
| [23:15:29] | sphery: | (when I take it on an airline flight) |
| [23:16:18] | J-e-f-f-A: | heh. ;-) |
| [23:16:31] | wagnerrp: | my HDD only moves at 73mph |
| [23:16:39] | awalls: | Shouldn't that be in KTAS instead of MPH? ;) |
| [23:16:49] | sphery: | wagnerrp: wait, wouldn't that mean it's speeding? |
| [23:16:54] | J-e-f-f-A: | I have to keep mine below 88mph or it dissappears into the another time period... |
| [23:17:20] | sphery: | heh--and they probably didn't know what to do with an HDD back in the 1800s |
| [23:17:21] | wagnerrp: | sphery? |
| [23:17:32] | sphery: | were you talking about in your car? |
| [23:17:52] | sphery: | or are you talking edge velocity of the spinning disk |
| [23:17:52] | wagnerrp: | no, thats how fast my hard drive operates |
| [23:18:00] | wagnerrp: | edge velocity |
| [23:18:04] | sphery: | ahhh |
| [23:18:23] | sphery: | trying to figure out what a KTAS is |
| [23:18:34] | wagnerrp: | knot air speed |
| [23:18:34] | sphery: | knots true airspeed |
| [23:18:54] | wagnerrp: | as opposed to ground speed |
| [23:19:01] | wagnerrp: | heard a funny story about that one |
| [23:19:39] | wagnerrp: | south west air traffic control zone, arizona or something |
| [23:19:40] | ** TheMaverick` wonders how this discussion is even remotely related to Myth-TV ** | |
| [23:20:28] | wagnerrp: | newbie uncertain pilot in a single cessna asked ATC for a ground track, came back 80knots |
| [23:20:38] | ** TheMaverick` doesn't mind... but it makes his chuckle lightly ** | |
| [23:21:01] | sphery: | heh, you never know when youmight need to know about KTAS and HDD velocities when fixing your MythTV box |
| [23:21:02] | wagnerrp: | hot sh** pilot in a twin engined beach craft wanted to show off and asked ATC for a ground track, came back 120knots |
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| [23:21:46] | wagnerrp: | f-18 out of some west coast NAS happened to be flying through the area decided to put them in their place, and asked ATC for a ground track, 615knots |
| [23:22:38] | wagnerrp: | suddenly, some unknown voice came over the radio... 'ATC this is angel-27, requesting ground track at 80kft' |
| [23:22:47] | J-e-f-f-A: | Wait, wasn't that a movie... Top Gun... ;-) hehehehe... |
| [23:22:47] | wagnerrp: | 'i read you at 1950knots' |
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| [23:24:42] | sphery: | heh, kind of like the AF pilot asking for clearance to flight level 600, and the controller (who assumed it was a newbie pilot with a math error) saying, "Yeah, you have clearance if you can make it up that high," and the SR-71 pilot comes back, "Roger. Descending to FL600" |
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| [23:31:00] | kormoc: | wagnerrp, http://www.econrates.com/reality/schul.html |
| [23:31:12] | kormoc: | I have it bookmarked under 'Awesome' |
| [23:31:19] | wagnerrp: | yeah, thats the one |
| [23:31:21] | wagnerrp: | heh |
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| [23:33:20] | awalls: | What's the difference between a sailor story and a fairy tale? |
| [23:33:50] | kormoc: | Once upon a time and 'This really happened'? |
| [23:33:54] | awalls: | Fairy tales begin "Once upon a time..." and sailor stories start out "This is not sh*t..." |
| [23:34:03] | awalls: | /no/ |
| [23:34:19] | wagnerrp: | the former generally involves men desiring sea lions? |
| [23:34:46] | awalls: | F-18 pilots are Navy or Marine Corps. |
| [23:35:24] | wagnerrp: | this was an air force story |
| [23:35:43] | wagnerrp: | the f-18 pilot was an unwitting victim of false superiority |
| [23:36:20] | wagnerrp: | aspen 20... i thought it was angel something |
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