Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 00:00 UTC

[00:00:02]

mattwj2002:

well I meant the new dual

[00:00:28]

kormoc:

the one that's not out yet?

[00:00:35]

mattwj2002:

nope

[00:00:43]

mattwj2002:

not on Amazon anyways

[00:00:57]

kormoc:

http://www.silicondust.com/products/hdhomerun/atsc/

[00:01:00]

kormoc:

those are it

[00:01:03]

kormoc:

(for now)

[00:05:00]

swerve_:

mythweb is an official part of mythtv, right? or is there another help resource for mythweb?

[00:05:29]

kormoc:

Aye, it's part of the project

[00:05:55]

swerve_:

okay, thx

[00:06:22]

swerve_:

i'm getting some 'incompatible protocol' error

[00:06:37]

wagnerrp:

then you need to upgrade

[00:06:59]

swerve_:

to svn, i guess, but i don't really know how to do that

[00:07:18]

kormoc:

swerve_, both mythweb and the backend need to be at the same version

[00:07:39]

swerve_:

they're both upgraded to debian multimedia unstable

[00:07:50]

swerve_:

the latest I can get through the distro

[00:08:22]

swerve_:

that's why i don't get why that error would show up

[00:08:27]

wagnerrp:

then the debian packages are screwed up

[00:08:48]

kormoc:

Yeah, you'd have to talk to the debian multimedia guys

[00:08:54]

swerve_:

searching google, someone with the same problem with 0.23 fixed it by upgrading to svn

[00:09:01]

mattwj2002:

does anyone have the hdhomerun tech?

[00:09:12]

wagnerrp:

mattwj2002: why would you want one?

[00:09:13]

kormoc:

mattwj2002, unlikely and it's worthless

[00:09:17]

kormoc:

(for a end user)

[00:09:37]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, to show off how well he can waste money of course!

[00:09:39]

swerve_:

how can i find mythweb version for sure?

[00:09:48]

wagnerrp:

yeah, its not worthless, but it doesnt add any features an end user would ever use

[00:10:06]

swerve_:

maybe it is different vers.

[00:10:17]

mattwj2002:

couldn't you multicast around your homenetwork

[00:10:28]

mattwj2002:

same show multiple computers

[00:10:29]

wagnerrp:

sure, you could... why would you want to?

[00:10:40]

mattwj2002:

true

[00:11:05]

mattwj2002:

I was just curious what it all did

[00:11:06]

mattwj2002:

:)

[00:12:04]

wagnerrp:

swerve_: it clearly is a different version, as shown by the error youre getting

[00:13:00]

swerve_:

not so sure, if the problems i have been having all day are an indication

[00:13:11]

swerve_:

it was doing that when both versions were from lenny, too

[00:13:21]

swerve_:

squeeze, i mean (testing)

[00:13:36]

wagnerrp:

for what its worth, there is hardly any need to use a package for mythweb

[00:13:48]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, yeah, I should have programmed in a deterministic language rather then the non deterministic one I did...

[00:13:51]

swerve_:

just install it directly?

[00:14:07]

wagnerrp:

theres nothing to install

[00:14:22]

wagnerrp:

just delete the existing files, copy the new version in place

[00:14:27]

swerve_:

lol, well there must be files associated with it somewhere

[00:14:32]

wagnerrp:

the httpd.conf hasnt changed in several versions

[00:14:39]

wagnerrp:

no, there are no files associated with it

[00:14:48]

wagnerrp:

it is entirely self contained within that directory

[00:14:49]

swerve_:

it just runs from the ether? :D

[00:14:53]

wagnerrp:

you dont have to copy anything anywhere

[00:15:28]

wagnerrp:

there is _a_single_file_ included in your apache configuration, that tells apache what to do with it

[00:15:42]

swerve_:

so maybe my apache is screwed up?

[00:15:46]

wagnerrp:

and you can continue to use the same file that you already have in place

[00:16:03]

wagnerrp:

so all you have to do is replce the existing directory with the new one

[00:16:20]

sphery:

I've always wondered about the whole ether thing... I mean, really, how do people expect to trap ether in a net?

[00:16:26]

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[00:16:39]

swerve_:

it's a very fine net

[00:16:45]

sphery:

heh

[00:18:24]

sphery:

wonder if I should have apologized to the muscle-memory crowd about adding a new option to the recording editor's uncut-area menu

[00:18:42]

kormoc:

YOU RUINED MYTHTV!!!!1!1!!1!!

[00:19:05]

sphery:

heh

[00:19:32]

sphery:

trying to figure out how to put the undo/redo (for #8901) into the menu without causing problems...

[00:19:36]

Beirdo:

hehehe

[00:19:50]

sphery:

I don't like that each are shown sometimes and not shown other times...

[00:19:55]

Beirdo:

oh noes... I gotta learn my remote again!

[00:20:03]

sphery:

that ruins muscle-memory navigation forever

[00:20:08]

sphery:

(not just a re-learn thing)

[00:20:18]

kormoc:

add a menu of menus!

[00:20:25]

sphery:

I think I may need to convert to a real menu (like in playback) and use submenus

[00:20:30]

sphery:

heh, yeah

[00:20:57]

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[00:21:00]

sphery:

it's actually fun doing things for mythtv that actually change stuff

[00:21:12]

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[00:21:18]

sphery:

been doing too many "the end result of this is that nothing changes" type things, lately

[00:21:32]

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[00:21:34]

sphery:

like the mythvideo schema integration

[00:21:49]

Beirdo:

yeah, something will soon change because of all that

[00:22:08]

sphery:

so, why do so many users use "first Last" for their names in emails?

[00:22:17]

sphery:

(with first letter of first name lower case)

[00:22:32]

sphery:

Beirdo: heh, cool... can't wait until the UPnP scanner is gone

[00:22:59]

sphery:

will also please the "mythtv keeps waking my spun-down disk drives every 30 mins" crowd

[00:24:03]

sphery:

so every time Black Eyed Peas comes on the radio, I now think of Intel

[00:24:08]

sphery:

stupid effective marketing

[00:24:24]

Beirdo:

Let's Get Retarded....

[00:24:24]

sphery:

http://newsroom.intel.com/community/intel_new . . . as-front-man

[00:24:31]

sphery:

intel.i.am

[00:26:07]

wagnerrp:

i dont listen to stations that play black eyed peas

[00:27:22]

wagnerrp:

to be fair, im in hicksville usa

[00:27:33]

wagnerrp:

our stations are rock, oldies, and country

[00:27:37]

wagnerrp:

much much too much country

[00:28:50]

Beirdo:

heh. That would drive me insane

[00:28:58]

Beirdo:

no religious channels?

[00:29:03]

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[00:29:14]

sphery:

wagnerrp: "our stations"... You're on the Earth, right? Like the one with the Internet?

[00:29:14]

wagnerrp:

oh yeah, couple of those too

[00:29:23]

Beirdo:

woulda thought there'd be a few preachers to choose from :)

[00:29:28]

wagnerrp:

my car doesnt have the internets

[00:29:43]

Beirdo:

mine did. It was called an iPhone

[00:29:45]

sphery:

I haven't done terrestrial radio except in cars for years

[00:30:04]

Beirdo:

IRC at 55mph :)

[00:30:07]

Beirdo:

ahem!

[00:30:17]

sphery:

Beirdo: so, is it cold in Seattle without a shirt?

[00:30:23]

wagnerrp:

i thought you took the bus

[00:30:30]

kormoc:

KYW, news radio, 1060!

[00:30:34]

Beirdo:

I still have a car... but it's still in PR

[00:30:48]

Beirdo:

a fat lot of good it does there

[00:30:48]

wagnerrp:

the busses around here never get up to 55mph

[00:30:53]

sphery:

Beirdo: ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFjVZizLVE4

[00:31:02]

wagnerrp:

which is good, as that means the bombs can never arm

[00:31:04]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, depends where you go, but we have buses that hit 70

[00:31:41]

Beirdo:

the ones on I5, I suppose?

[00:31:53]

Beirdo:

or I90 as the case may be

[00:32:12]

wagnerrp:

our busses dont take the highway

[00:32:23]

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[00:32:58]

** sphery wonders who broke his ccache **

[00:33:00]

sphery:

:)

[00:33:03]

Beirdo:

hahah

[00:33:11]

Beirdo:

renaming a library path will do that

[00:33:17]

sphery:

yeah

[00:33:33]

Beirdo:

the 32-bit slave did a lot of chewing on that change

[00:33:39]

sphery:

especially since ccache is path-based... like if you compile the same app in 2 separate source directory locations, it's not used

[00:33:41]

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[00:34:22]

swerve_:

wagnerrp: i'm getting a blank page and this error: PHP Fatal error: Class 'MythBase' not found in /www/mythweb/classes/Translate.php on line 16

[00:34:47]

sphery:

swerve_: you sure you got -fixes MythWeb?

[00:34:53]

wagnerrp:

sphery: that doesnt seem right... that would mean ccache would be worthless for compilation on gentoo

[00:35:02]

wagnerrp:

since the build directory name is based off the version

[00:35:14]

sphery:

wagnerrp: pretty sure that's the case...

[00:35:21]

wagnerrp:

kormoc?

[00:35:28]

swerve_:

0.24-svn

[00:35:42]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, hrm...

[00:35:46]

wagnerrp:

swerve_: we dont use svn

[00:36:15]

swerve_:

oy, what difference does it make?

[00:36:15]

wagnerrp:

you use ccache on gentoo through the ebuilds

[00:36:23]

swerve_:

it should work, shouldn't it?

[00:36:26]

swerve_:

*confused*

[00:36:45]

swerve_:

wth is the version that will work with 0.24??????

[00:37:00]

swerve_:

doesn't seem that difficult, what's up with these distro maintainers???

[00:37:35]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, sphery, my understanding is it uses the relative path of the file as the hash, but I can't find documentation to support that at the moment

[00:37:39]

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[00:37:57]

wagnerrp:

'git clone git://github.com/MythTV/mythweb.git; cd mythweb; git checkout fixes/0.24'

[00:38:46]

wagnerrp:

or you can download from https://github.com/MythTV/mythweb/tarball/fixes/0.24

[00:38:53]

sphery:

wagnerrp: http://ccache.samba.org/manual.html , perhaps it's only if you set CCACHE_HASHDIR

[00:39:23]

sphery:

but that doesn't explain why it wasn't using it when I built unstable in 2 different dirs

[00:39:32]

kormoc:

"To mitigate this problem, you can specify a ?base directory? by setting the CCACHE_BASEDIR variable to an absolute path to the directory. ccache will then rewrite absolute paths that are under the base directory (i.e., paths that have the base directory as a prefix) to relative paths when constructing the hash."

[00:40:17]

sphery:

ah, yeah

[00:40:29]

sphery:

so you can make it work, but depending on the project, it may not work by default

[00:40:39]

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[00:40:53]

kormoc:

and I bet Gentoo does that magically for us

[00:41:09]

sphery:

and since we're using -g in mythtv

[00:41:26]

sphery:

and some absolute paths in -I's

[00:43:02]

sphery:

and lots of __FILE__

[00:43:39]

swerve_:

wagnerrp: seems to work, thanks a lot

[00:44:19]

wagnerrp:

swerve_: honestly, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to install any web application

[00:44:36]

swerve_:

really wish this stuff was spelled out better somewhere so i wouldn't have to ask

[00:44:50]

swerve_:

wagnerrp: what do you mean?

[00:44:56]

wagnerrp:

at least PHP-based ones that are self contained

[00:44:56]

swerve_:

i live on mythweb!

[00:45:11]

wagnerrp:

i mean install through a package manager

[00:45:14]

sphery:

man can not live by mythweb alone

[00:45:17]

swerve_:

yes that makes no sense

[00:45:21]

sphery:

er, cannot

[00:45:26]

wagnerrp:

theres nothing for the package manager to do, besides dependency management

[00:45:38]

swerve_:

i see in my directory that I had upgraded manually for earlier versions

[00:45:56]

swerve_:

even have a 0.21 version there

[00:46:21]

swerve_:

0.23 was so long ago that i totally forgot

[00:46:48]

J-e-f-f-A:

swerve_ wow... I've gone through a few backends since those days. ;-)

[00:47:16]

swerve_:

it's freaking debian, they're packages are so weird all the time

[00:47:20]

swerve_:

their

[00:47:25]

J-e-f-f-A:

swerve: The only thing I carried from one system to the next was the DB and recordings. (with a few exceptions...) ;-)

[00:48:11]

swerve_:

my old backend is still chugging away

[00:48:19]

swerve_:

need an upgrade soon, though, probably this spring

[00:49:03]

swerve_:

mostly i just let it run and forget about it for months/year+ at a time, then there's a learning curve again to get back into it

[00:49:47]

J-e-f-f-A:

swerve_: I ran a Dual PIII 866 with 512mb ram for a couple of years, then got 'serious'... And I just upgraded my BE to an Athlon x4 640 with lots of ram to help with h.264 commercial flagging... It's a killer... ;-)

[00:50:00]

swerve_:

wow, sounds amazing

[00:50:47]

swerve_:

i'm still running on a 2500+ athlon and a gig of ram :p

[00:51:07]

J-e-f-f-A:

btw, by "it's a killer", I was referring to the h.264 commflagging... ;-) ^^ hehehe... that's what my Wintel box still is... heheheh

[00:51:32]

J-e-f-f-A:

See where my priorities are?!? ;-)

[00:51:33]

swerve_:

what capture card do you use?

[00:51:33]

kormoc:

J-e-f-f-A, it's not /that/ bad

[00:51:43]

kormoc:

my mac pro handles it in almost real time

[00:51:45]

swerve_:

i need a new one for digital

[00:52:14]

J-e-f-f-A:

swerve_: For HD off of cable (FiOS), two HD-PVRs – for HD OTA – two HD-HomeRuns.

[00:52:25]

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[00:52:29]

J-e-f-f-A:

kormoc: Yeah, but your mac pro is a MONSTER! ;-)

[00:52:35]

swerve_:

four in one box??

[00:53:19]

kormoc:

J-e-f-f-A, you beat me in per core speed (mine is 2.8ghz, yours is 3) and it is a single threaded task

[00:53:21]

J-e-f-f-A:

swerve_: Actually 7. ;-) The HD-PVRs are one tuner each, the HDHRs are dual-tuner (so total of 4), and another PVR-250 that captures off of a small IPTV STB. ;-)

[00:53:35]

kormoc:

J-e-f-f-A, multirec! ;)

[00:53:42]

swerve_:

aren't most dual-record now, also?

[00:53:45]

J-e-f-f-A:

kormoc: Yeah... barely. ;-)

[00:53:51]

swerve_:

okay – 7, i see

[00:53:53]

kormoc:

swerve_, to be honest, we have folks in here with a dozen tuners

[00:53:56]

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[00:53:57]

swerve_:

wow, sounds amazing

[00:54:06]

kormoc:

there's that one guy who records everything 24 hours a day, 7 days a week

[00:54:09]

swerve_:

i would never have time to watch everything I recorded, lol

[00:54:12]

J-e-f-f-A:

kormoc: Not much sense for multirec up here... not much good on the sub-channels. ;-)

[00:54:17]

kormoc:

his recording rule is '%'

[00:54:38]

kormoc:

J-e-f-f-A, heh, fair 'nuff.

[00:54:50]

J-e-f-f-A:

kormoc: To be honest, 4 ATSC tuners is 'overkill', but I had the Amazon.com credits, so I used $99 on a second one.

[00:55:00]

swerve_:

why do you need OTA setup if you have cable? isn't it redundant?

[00:55:17]

kormoc:

swerve_, cheaper then renting extra boxes + HDPVRs

[00:55:43]

kormoc:

I have a HDPVR with DirectTV and a HDHR for OTA

[00:55:58]

J-e-f-f-A:

swerve_: and for some reason, I don't get the HD locals on my cable... either that or I haven't looked 'hard enough'...

[00:56:02]

kormoc:

it's nice to record three shows at once for those times when network shows overlap with my non-network shows

[00:56:18]

sphery:

ooh, speaking of amazon credits... got my $20 from livingsocial. what to buy, what to buy?

[00:57:15]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: I've got $135 in credits right now, I don't know what I want to buy either... ;-) Maybe new batteries for my UPS system?

[00:57:17]

swerve_:

i see – so you run a dedicated OTA card/s so you don't have to pay for the extra service when there's a conflict – makes sense

[00:57:27]

J-e-f-f-A:

Yep.

[00:57:45]

swerve_:

you guys are light years ahead of me! :D

[00:57:53]

kormoc:

nah, just addicts

[00:58:03]

russell5:

sphery, i got the same thing. bought wife valentines day gift.

[00:58:04]

** J-e-f-f-A resembles that remark! **

[00:58:13]

swerve_:

like i said, i barely have time to watch what i record now

[00:58:56]

swerve_:

if i had 4+ cards, i'd probably never leave the house, lol

[00:59:00]

J-e-f-f-A:

swerve_: yeah, my son watches lots of stuff... I watch stuff here and there, but like the flexibility of being able to watch just about anything I want whenever I want...

[00:59:21]

swerve_:

hear ya

[00:59:35]

sphery:

russell5: that's a good idea... only problem is I'd have to buy a wife, first.

[00:59:35]

swerve_:

i still have stuff from probably year+ ago that I haven't even watched yet, lol

[00:59:45]

russell5:

lmao sphery

[00:59:49]

swerve_:

one thing i did load up on was HD space

[00:59:52]

J-e-f-f-A:

wt*? looks like my backend process is down/hung... grr...

[01:00:17]

swerve_:

so it just builds up and builds up, waiting for me to watch it

[01:00:18]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: could get a new backend system that doesn't lock up!

[01:00:38]

J-e-f-f-A:

grr: "mythbackend dead but pid file exists"...

[01:00:39]

sphery:

(or for $135, could get a mobo/proc or mobo/ram or proc/ram, at least :)

[01:00:53]

swerve_:

this is great though – you guys have really given me ideas for my next upgrade

[01:00:57]

sphery:

those pid-ly files get in the way

[01:01:23]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: I just plopped $300 into a x4 640, MB and 8GB DDR3 1333 ram.... not sure what happened, gotta look at the logs for clues...

[01:01:27]

swerve_:

i thought a dual-tuner card was going to be the shizznit, now I see I was thinking too small!! lol

[01:01:54]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: yeah, that's the annoying part--the period where you know something's wrong but not exactly what

[01:02:41]

sphery:

My dev box kept locking up on my a couple weeks ago... I'd be working, then it would just stop--no more ssh (No route to host), nothing on the monitor (at all)... Couldn't figure it out.

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[01:02:53]

J-e-f-f-A:

this doesn't look good: RemoteEncoder::Setup(): Failed to connect to backend

[01:03:08]

J-e-f-f-A:

I don't have a slave backend, just one master... humm........

[01:03:17]

swerve_:

sphery: what was wrong?

[01:03:20]

sphery:

Then I realized that not only was the NIC clip not holding the ethernet cable well, but that my DVI cable was completely disconnected

[01:03:38]

sphery:

took me about a week to figure that out, too... was sad.

[01:03:45]

swerve_:

only like the two most critical components, lol

[01:03:50]

sphery:

heh, yeah

[01:04:00]

sphery:

once plugged in properly, though, the system has been good

[01:04:25]

sphery:

this is the problem with never actually using the local display

[01:04:41]

swerve_:

i'm constantly amazed at how smoothly and stable something as complex as myth can run virtually without problems

[01:05:02]

swerve_:

until it's upgrade time, lol

[01:05:57]

sphery:

heh, I've found that if I spend the majority of my free time hacking MythTV code, the upgrades are always painless

[01:06:23]

sphery:

so rather than spend 8 hours on upgrade day, I spend hundreds of hours during the development cycle...

[01:06:28]

sphery:

fair trade, I think

[01:06:38]

J-e-f-f-A:

... something happened at 19:00 that triggered it... humm.....

[01:07:09]

swerve_:

at least if something goes wrong, you probably know exactly what it is

[01:07:24]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: EST? which would be midnight UTC on 20110127... maybe it's the 20110127 bug?

[01:07:34]

swerve_:

how do you guys with multiple inputs typicall program recordings?

[01:07:35]

sphery:

(I'm making that up)

[01:07:59]

sphery:

only apple seems to have clock-based bugs that affect random dates

[01:08:09]

swerve_:

i like mythweb because the interface is easy and it shows all the conflicts, but is there a better way?

[01:08:27]

sphery:

swerve_: any time/any channel rules, no input priorities, ever, and proper ordering of inputs

[01:08:33]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: Hehehe... Nope, looks like a problem with one of the HD-PVRs: 2011-01–26 19:00:05.518 DevRdB(/dev/hdpvr1) Error: Poll giving up

[01:08:38]

sphery:

oh, you mean the conflict resolutoin stuff...

[01:08:55]

J-e-f-f-A:

and a couple more errors, then the backend went bye-bye...

[01:08:55]

kormoc:

swerve_, I'm biased but I use mythweb only

[01:09:05]

swerve_:

24/7 you mean?

[01:09:08]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: ah, yeah, the beauty of USB... reliability and robustness :)

[01:09:20]

swerve_:

any time/any channel?

[01:09:27]

sphery:

swerve_: I generally do conflict resolution in MythWeb, also, because it's easy to navigate the list

[01:09:37]

swerve_:

exactly, that's what I've found

[01:09:48]

sphery:

kormoc: I /would/ do recording history management in MythWeb, but someone hasn't written that module for me...

[01:09:57]

sphery:

(Previous Recordings :)

[01:09:58]

** kormoc shifty eyes **

[01:09:59]

swerve_:

it's a really good partner app

[01:10:00]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: I've had the hd-pvrs goof up before, but never crash the backend... just that tuner would continually fail to record at that point... grrr.... maybe I should move them to different USB ports...

[01:10:35]

sphery:

I'm wondering if they'll put out a USB3 HD-PVR, and if they do, if USB3's non-polling architecture will make it more reliable

[01:10:53]

sphery:

I don't trust USB at all--except for non-critical stuff like mice/keyboards/temporary connections

[01:11:16]

sphery:

and I only started trusting it for mice/keyboards within the last year :)

[01:11:39]

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[01:11:46]

sphery:

kormoc: that reminds me, though, I need to add "Forget this recording" to the Previously Recorded screen in mythfrontend

[01:11:51]

swerve_:

i used to be old school about USB, too -hated it

[01:11:53]

sphery:

(versus just deleting the entry)

[01:11:57]

kormoc:

ahh, yeah, that'd be useful

[01:12:18]

swerve_:

but now so many things are USB that you can't really get avoid it

[01:12:38]

sphery:

yeah

[01:12:47]

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[01:12:50]

swerve_:

2 has seemed pretty good, i'll have to say

[01:13:10]

sphery:

fortunately, though, for tv capture, I can avoid it since I don't have cable/don't need to do HDTV encoding from analog outputs of a cable/satellite box

[01:15:27]

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[01:17:14]

swerve_:

surprised a mac guy was so aversive to USB, lol

[01:17:38]

wagnerrp:

anyone with any sense has an aversion to USB

[01:17:47]

wagnerrp:

it was fine as a peripheral interface

[01:17:57]

wagnerrp:

it was never designed for any real significant throughput

[01:18:10]

wagnerrp:

(until USB 3.0 anyway)

[01:18:51]

wagnerrp:

USB 2.0 is technically faster than firewire, but firewire will run circles around it

[01:18:52]

swerve_:

firewire kind of never took off, wasn't that supposed to be the alternative

[01:19:23]

swerve_:

how so? better data management? i don't know anything about FW really

[01:19:54]

wagnerrp:

firewire never took off because having real capability and hardware offloading resulted in higher costs

[01:20:12]

wagnerrp:

manufacturers didnt want to spend the cost, and USB was 'good enough'

[01:20:18]

swerve_:

i see

[01:20:22]

sphery:

wagnerrp: have you gotten to play with USB3?

[01:20:26]

sphery:

er, SuperSpeed USB...

[01:20:29]

sphery:

sorry

[01:20:45]

wagnerrp:

no, not yet

[01:20:53]

swerve_:

we need better wireless

[01:20:59]

wagnerrp:

swerve_: think of it like a real modem instead of a winmodem

[01:21:06]

sphery:

just wondering whether it's achieving its potential for reliability and robustness

[01:21:12]

swerve_:

screw all these hardwire connections :D

[01:21:17]

wagnerrp:

or a crappy realtek NIC versus a 1000/Pro

[01:21:22]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah, perfect analogy

[01:21:32]

sphery:

(the winmodem one)

[01:21:46]

swerve_:

winmodem, lol – haven't heard that term in a long time

[01:21:59]

wagnerrp:

firewire is managed in hardware, usb is managed in software

[01:22:10]

wagnerrp:

along with all the overhead that comes with

[01:22:56]

swerve_:

i use it for: mouse, kb, digital cam, and mp3 player

[01:23:09]

swerve_:

it's okay for first two, slow for second

[01:23:28]

swerve_:

seems only well suited to mice and kb, lol

[01:25:03]

swerve_:

so i don't understand the "we don't use svn" comment – what would that have to do with the mythtv distro version?

[01:25:21]

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[01:25:50]

swerve_:

or do you mean you guys are the debian myth developers?

[01:25:51]

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[01:26:38]

sphery:

swerve_: he was saying that MythTV stopped using SVN as our primary repository, so if you're still updating off a MythTV SVN server, you're not getting current MythTV

[01:26:50]

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[01:27:05]

sphery:

we're now using git @ github as our primary repo, so that's where current code is

[01:27:12]

sphery:

including all current -fixes

[01:27:17]

swerve_:

oh, i see – just wondered how i would have known git out of thin air

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[01:27:53]

swerve_:

so i guess someone should inform the debian maintainers, lol

[01:28:02]

swerve_:

they seem to have the wrong version even in unstable

[01:28:18]

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[01:30:27]

sphery:

swerve_: well, we'll likely have our primary repo back in SVN before too long, and git will just be another interface to it

[01:30:34]

sphery:

but that's a whole other story...

[01:31:44]

swerve_:

it's a little confusing to a non-developer

[01:32:18]

swerve_:

it's like saying if you dload program XYZ at sourceforge it will work, but if you host it on another server it won't

[01:32:54]

swerve_:

esp. something like mythweb, that you just unpack into the directory anyway

[01:37:16]

russell5:

does anyone use software raid for there mythbox? is it a big tax on the cpu?

[01:37:46]

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[01:40:30]

sphery:

swerve_: yeah, the transition is a bit confusing for everyone

[01:43:04]

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[01:50:21]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: Gee, I wonder if this is my issue with the new MB: http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-usb/msg39433.html

[01:50:23]

sphery:

heh, Forget actually exists in Previously Recorded... The screen is just broken, so it doesn't actually ever know that episodes are duplicates.

[01:50:26]

tgm4883:

sphery, ok i'm home now to test a bit with the mysql changes. It was recommended to run the scheduler and average them out. Does that mean I can just run mythbackend --testsched or do I need to do something else?

[01:50:49]

sphery:

tgm4883: mythbackend --resched, probably

[01:50:50]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: That's the chip my new MB uses... hummm...........

[01:51:41]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: heh, fun

[01:51:52]

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[01:52:08]

tgm4883:

sphery, yea testsched runs pretty quickly, probably too quickly to matter

[01:52:11]

sphery:

tgm4883: also, do you have some non-trivial number of channels and programs and rules you can test with?

[01:52:40]

tgm4883:

define non-trivial number

[01:52:41]

sphery:

i.e. my system would be terrible for testing since I only have OTA channels, so not that much to record

[01:53:07]

sphery:

ideally cable and the more channels, the better

[01:53:07]

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[01:53:13]

sphery:

(cable or satellite)

[01:53:35]

tgm4883:

lets see

[01:53:38]

tgm4883:

40 recording schedules

[01:53:44]

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[01:54:01]

sphery:

I'd say if you have some 70+ channels and 70+ rules (and, even better if you have multiple video sources), it would show noticeable differences

[01:54:33]

sphery:

2011-01–15 21:28:13.651 Scheduled 444 items in 3.5 = 0.67 match + 2.80 place

[01:55:02]

sphery:

for me... with 35 channels and 113 rules

[01:55:30]

sphery:

in 2.8s MySQL time, there's not a lot of room to show increased efficiency :(

[01:55:57]

sphery:

If you're getting similarly small times, we might be able to get some user with hundreds of channels to do some testing

[01:56:27]

tgm4883:

hmm, --resched doesn't do much for me

[01:57:05]

sphery:

it sends a message to the backend

[01:57:19]

sphery:

you'll need to look for the match/place line in your mbe logs (same line I showed above)

[01:57:19]

tgm4883:

ah i see

[01:57:21]

tgm4883:

it's in the logs

[01:57:22]

tgm4883:

2011-01–26 17:55:33.107 Scheduled 381 items in 1.2 = 0.17 match + 1.02 place

[01:57:28]

tgm4883:

yea not enough apparently

[01:57:33]

sphery:

yeah, you won't be a good test case, either

[01:58:01]

tgm4883:

IIRC one of our devs has a pretty complex setup, he might be a good test case but he's rarely around anymore

[01:58:23]

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[01:58:33]

sphery:

I'm trying to remember which of the regulars around here would have lots of channels/long reschedules

[01:59:05]

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[01:59:18]

tgm4883:

I could turn on all the channels I get from schedules direct, I disabled a bunch since I didn't want them in my system

[01:59:25]

tgm4883:

shopping channels etc

[01:59:32]

tgm4883:

but it would be a pain to undo that again

[01:59:40]

sphery:

yeah, I'd say don't worry about it

[01:59:53]

sphery:

we'll try to get some good results from someone with lots of channels and rules

[02:00:00]

sphery:

then we can point you at them

[02:00:13]

sphery:

thanks for your willingness to do the work, though

[02:00:49]

tgm4883:

Awhile back there was talk of mythfilldatabase being moved into a single job (or something to that effect). It ran alot quicker but took way more CPU as it wasn't optimized. I wonder if that was due to db stuff and if that would be a good benchmark

[02:01:35]

sphery:

I have a dev box where I can mess with the DB all I want.. I may make time to just do some tests using the local cable company's everything package

[02:01:46]

sphery:

I just thought it would be better to have actual Ubuntu tests, though

[02:01:58]

sphery:

with default config, then showing each of small/medium/large

[02:02:20]

tgm4883:

hmm

[02:02:32]

** tgm4883 checks his VMs **

[02:02:44]

sphery:

the mfdb "single job" thing you were thinking of was running mythfilldatabase --dd-grab-all

[02:02:51]

sphery:

it is pretty db-intensive

[02:03:28]

J-e-f-f-A:

Humm.... If I continue to have problems, maybe I'll try putting the HD-PVRs on the USB3 ports... since I don't have any USB3 devices yet...

[02:03:41]

sphery:

for me it takes 45s real time

[02:04:00]

sphery:

and that's 0.23-fixes (which doesn't have some of the optimizations that 0.24 has)

[02:04:07]

sphery:

so that's not even a good test for me

[02:04:24]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: wait, you're not running 0.24?!? DOH! ;-) hehehehehehe

[02:04:30]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: whose usb3 chip is on there?

[02:04:52]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: heh, no... I've been spending my free time actually working on mythtv rather than upgrading :)

[02:04:53]

tgm4883:

oh wait, I forgot I loaded up a separate backend/frontend for testing on my desktop, let me run some stuff there

[02:04:59]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: NEC uPD720200 — seems to be well supported in Linux – for a year or so now...

[02:05:05]

sphery:

nice

[02:05:19]

sphery:

x2

[02:05:35]

sphery:

(both tgm4883's plan and that the USB3 chip is well supported)

[02:08:01]

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[02:10:15]

edman007:

do the lirc drivers in the 2.6.38 work with the hdpvr?

[02:10:19]

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[02:10:42]

edman007:

I remember for an older kernel I had to copy them out of another kernel (FC), do I have to patch this kernel too?

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[02:13:41]

J-e-f-f-A:

what's with the name changes?

[02:13:45]

wagnerrp:

2.6.38 has not yet been released

[02:14:02]

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[02:14:16]

wagnerrp:

not for another three weeks

[02:14:22]

J-e-f-f-A:

edman007: I was gonna say, sorry, I have two hd-pvrs but don't use the IR blasting, so I don't know what to tell you. If firewire is available, use it instead...

[02:15:10]

tgm4883:

sphery, how long does it take you to run mythfilldatabase without --db-grab-all

[02:15:43]

tgm4883:

cause it seriously is taking me forever to run it

[02:16:33]

wagnerrp:

without dd-grab-all... usually takes me 15–20 minutes to run

[02:16:59]

tgm4883:

wagnerrp, wow, so it's really that much quicker?

[02:17:04]

edman007:

J-e-f-f-A, on the hd-pvr? it has no firewire...

[02:17:14]

edman007:

wagnerrp, so...doesn't mean I can't run an rc...

[02:17:32]

wagnerrp:

tgm4883: and thats with ~100 channels or so on two lineups

[02:17:38]

tgm4883:

edman007, I think he means use firewire to change the channel from your box

[02:17:39]

J-e-f-f-A:

edman007: right, but my cable boxes do... But if you have Sat, you probably don't have that option...

[02:17:41]

tgm4883:

not from the hdpvr

[02:17:56]

tgm4883:

wagnerrp, ah ok, so that might be it

[02:18:06]

edman007:

tgm4883, oh, yea...I tried that, consistently hardlocked my system, I don't know why...

[02:18:08]

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[02:18:08]

tgm4883:

I just started importing a lineup with all of the directv channels

[02:18:26]

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[02:18:43]

wagnerrp:

tgm4883: thats why we tell people not to use Atoms

[02:18:51]

tgm4883:

heh

[02:18:54]

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[02:18:54]

tgm4883:

i'm not on an atom

[02:18:58]

tgm4883:

i'm on a core2duo

[02:18:59]

sphery:

tgm4883: without --dd-grab-all, it's just seconds for me

[02:19:01]

wagnerrp:

because stuff like that, which all master backends will have to do, take a long a** time

[02:19:12]

sphery:

with --dd-grab-all, it's 45s

[02:19:14]

tgm4883:

yea I wouldn't recommend an atom for a backend

[02:19:47]

sphery:

without --dd-grab-all, meaning also, without --refresh-all

[02:20:03]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I'm guessing you mean 15–20min using --refresh-all instead of --dd-grab-all ?

[02:20:13]

wagnerrp:

sphery: no, thats just a normal pull

[02:20:21]

wagnerrp:

unless i messed something up years ago

[02:20:24]

sphery:

of tomorrow and +13?

[02:20:30]

wagnerrp:

i think so

[02:20:34]

sphery:

shouldn't be nearly that long

[02:20:36]

tgm4883:

looks like I am working on the 8th day out right now

[02:20:41]

sphery:

for me, it's literally seconds (like 6?)

[02:20:45]

wagnerrp:

to the logs!

[02:20:57]

sphery:

you're not running --dd-grab-all, normally?

[02:21:03]

tgm4883:

sphery, yea it's way longer than that when I run it

[02:21:10]

tgm4883:

I don't run --dd-grab-all

[02:21:26]

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[02:21:42]

sphery:

--dd-grab-all is much less network intensive, but much more processor intensive--where much of the processor use is on the DB

[02:22:06]

tgm4883:

sphery, my internet connection is fast, but the download from SD seems to be really slow

[02:22:18]

tgm4883:

~10K/s

[02:22:20]

sphery:

yeah, because TMS has to custom create your data

[02:22:26]

sphery:

which is why they prefer --dd-grab-all

[02:22:27]

tgm4883:

yes thats K/s

[02:22:31]

tgm4883:

ah

[02:22:44]

tgm4883:

has that been optimized now?

[02:23:09]

sphery:

then they prepare once, instead of (with no options) 2x (for tomorrow and +13) or, worse, for users who are doing bad things like smartfill script of --refresh-all, between 7 and 14 times

[02:23:38]

sphery:

s/of --refresh-all/or --refresh-all/

[02:24:21]

tgm4883:

ok, i just restarted it with dd-grab-all

[02:24:28]

tgm4883:

since I accidently killed it a minute ago

[02:24:53]

wagnerrp:

ok, seems it only took 43 seconds

[02:25:03]

wagnerrp:

not sure where i came up with that 15 minutes

[02:25:25]

tgm4883:

I'm still only getting 14K/s

[02:25:34]

tgm4883:

which is what takes the most time

[02:26:14]

wagnerrp:

sphery: have you ever looked at mythtvfs?

[02:26:51]

sphery:

no

[02:26:58]

sphery:

just heard about it for the first time in that thread

[02:26:59]

tgm4883:

also, not sure why but I always get a 401 unauthorized then a 200 OK when running this

[02:27:07]

kormoc:

tgm4883, can you confirm that by default ubuntu is using the -small config?

[02:27:11]

tgm4883:

when it's trying to connect to SD

[02:27:12]

sphery:

and, yeah, 43s sounds /much/ more appropriate

[02:27:15]

kormoc:

tgm4883, that's perfectly acceptable

[02:27:16]

tgm4883:

kormoc, let me check

[02:27:21]

J-e-f-f-A:

My test is still running... took 2:41 to download 4.7MB of listings from SD, and has been running for 4 minutes since... grr...

[02:27:22]

sphery:

wagnerrp: so do you use --dd-grab-all normally?

[02:27:28]

sphery:

if so, how long odes that take?

[02:27:41]

wagnerrp:

no, never gotten around to moving to it

[02:27:59]

sphery:

so much better

[02:28:03]

sphery:

get all the updates

[02:28:23]

sphery:

didn't have to worry about whether I had current listings with the State of the Onion address, etc.

[02:28:39]

tgm4883:

kormoc, not sure if it's small or not, The header doesn't match any of the other ones I'd have to check though the actual settings

[02:29:02]

kormoc:

tgm4883, key buffer is the main one, is it set to 16k 16M or 265M?

[02:29:14]

sphery:

key buffer is key, it seems

[02:29:23]

tgm4883:

16M

[02:29:25]

sphery:

otherwise, it would just be the buffer

[02:29:33]

kormoc:

ahh, good, it's the medium then

[02:29:56]

sphery:

tgm4883: wanna pastebin the default config (or link it or something)?

[02:29:56]

J-e-f-f-A:

What??? Just heard a blurb for the 10:00 news – "Heads up – texting while you walk may be illegal..." what?!?

[02:30:15]

tgm4883:

J-e-f-f-A, thats cause you could fall into a fountain

[02:30:20]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: you think the government should allow poor citizens to fall into fountains?

[02:30:24]

sphery:

grr, too slow

[02:31:02]

kormoc:

tgm4883, to get a rough estimate of how big that value should be, add up the sizes of the *.myi files in the data/mythconverg directory

[02:31:05]

J-e-f-f-A:

hahaha!!! ;-)

[02:31:14]

kormoc:

I'd wager it's way larger then 16 megabytes

[02:31:24]

tgm4883:

http://pastebin.com/u2qWTcJV

[02:32:54]

tgm4883:

kormoc, i'll do that in a bit, grabbing dinner

[02:33:07]

jamesd_laptop:

sphery, the government should stay out of it.. if you can't walk and talk at the same time, you don't deserve to be part of the gene pool...

[02:33:09]

kormoc:

wow

[02:33:18]

kormoc:

max packet size of 16M? That's absurd

[02:33:36]

kormoc:

that eats up 16 megabytes for each connection to the database

[02:34:30]

sphery:

jamesd_laptop: agreed

[02:35:17]

sphery:

kormoc: wow, I have mine at 1M

[02:35:33]

jamesd_laptop:

if they keep allowing idiots to reproduce... it will only add to the governents problems in the future.

[02:35:39]

kormoc:

oh nice, they made it dynamic now, so it won't eat it up per connection

[02:35:44]

sphery:

wonder why they're not using a recommended default...

[02:35:53]

sphery:

(recommended default config, that is)

[02:36:03]

sphery:

i.e. medium or something...

[02:36:37]

kormoc:

most of their 'Fine Tuning' are just re-setting defaults

[02:36:45]

sphery:

ahh, then that's cool

[02:39:21]

kormoc:

ahh, the magic is in /etc/mysql/conf.d/

[02:45:05]

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[02:50:54]

J-e-f-f-A:

I guess I've got a few channels... even with --dd-grab-all, my mythfilldatabase run took 17m3.339s ... yikes.

[02:53:08]

J-e-f-f-A:

ok, what's up here... I have the 'maximum jobs to run on this backend' set to 4, yet I've got 10 copies of mythcommflag running right now?!?!?

[02:53:18]

edman007:

J-e-f-f-A, mythfilldatabase makes my computer all laggy for 10 minutes (has to pump mysql through raid5)

[02:55:58]

sphery:

J-e-f-f-A: --dd-grab-all will take significantly longer than without --dd-grab-all

[02:56:13]

sphery:

because without --dd-grab-all, you're only updating 2 days of data

[02:56:40]

sphery:

but if you want to update more than 2 days of data, you should only do so with --dd-grab-all, because otherwise, you're abusing the TMS servers

[02:57:04]

sphery:

in fact, it's only for the TMS servers that --dd-grab-all is more efficient/faster than without --dd-grab-all

[02:57:15]

J-e-f-f-A:

edman007: no raid5 here, I tried that at one time, well, had my recordings on a raid5, and lost two drives at once... doh! (one died, did a re-boot to replace it, and a 2nd died on reboot... just bad luck I think...)

[02:57:22]

sphery:

but for the user, --dd-grab-all makes sure all 14 days of data are current

[02:57:31]

sphery:

so you pay for the update with CPU time

[02:57:42]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: ah... ok.

[02:57:54]

sphery:

just wanted to clarify for anyone reading :)

[02:58:32]

edman007:

J-e-f-f-A, I got hardware raid card, so it isn't bad...tough the vid card seems to have murdered the bbu...i should replace that :/

[02:59:35]

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[03:01:34]

J-e-f-f-A:

edman007: Nice. Yeah, i was just running software raid5, but considering what happened, the same thing could have happened with a hardware card...

[03:01:37]

dewman:

sphery, speaking of the mythfilldatabase, should the --dd-grab-all be set in the mythfilldatabase arguments? I noticed that in the mythbuntu version it is just mythfilldatabase

[03:02:24]

sphery:

wagnerrp: heh, already got my first complaint about the wording

[03:02:28]

edman007:

J-e-f-f-A, well turns out when I recompiled my kernel firewire got disabled, brb, I'm going to un-disable it and try firewire to control the cable box...

[03:02:31]

sphery:

"when you add a temp marker, it's not a cut"

[03:02:40]

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[03:03:20]

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[03:03:48]

J-e-f-f-A:

Yikes, we've got 50" of snow in the last 30 days, and about 12" more by noon tomorrow... This is one of the 'snowiest' winters in a long time here...

[03:03:52]

wagnerrp:

id have just left it as is

[03:05:09]

Beirdo:

snow. heheh.

[03:05:19]

Beirdo:

so glad I don't have to shovel that crap anymore

[03:05:35]

J-e-f-f-A:

Beirdo: You didn't have to shovel much in PR either... hehehehe

[03:05:40]

Beirdo:

true

[03:05:46]

sphery:

well, I got complaints that users didn't know what was happening

[03:05:57]

J-e-f-f-A:

Beirdo: you don't get much snow out that way?

[03:05:59]

sphery:

was told it's a bad UI design

[03:06:00]

Beirdo:

Seattle is more my style though

[03:06:00]

sphery:

etc.

[03:06:04]

Beirdo:

very very little

[03:06:37]

Beirdo:

it's snowed twice this winter so far. First time was about 2" on the ground maybe... the second time it was 1" or so

[03:07:00]

Beirdo:

but nearby is mountains with mucho snow if you want it

[03:09:02]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: got some more errors on the HD-PVRs, and tried moving them to the USB3 ports – evidentially that didn't work that well, they only stayed up about 10 seconds after a recording started...

[03:09:32]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: I moved them to another set of ports, and they've held stable for the last 20 minutes or so without any issues so far...

[03:10:56]

J-e-f-f-A:

(this MB has 8 USB controllers on-board according to lsusb... kinda staggering imho...

[03:11:56]

J-e-f-f-A:

er.. make that 'according to lspci'... ;-)

[03:12:04]

[R]:

i wound up getting a pci usb card

[03:12:09]

[R]:

with a nec chipset

[03:12:16]

[R]:

my hdpvr errors reduced drastically

[03:12:48]

J-e-f-f-A:

[R]: I'll keep that in mind if I continue to have issues... Heck, I've probably got a couple laying around here from the past...

[03:12:51]

sphery:

wow

[03:13:09]

sphery:

wonder why the usb3 ports didn't work

[03:13:51]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: Yeah, the only thing I can figure is some obscure timing issue that isn't handled well in linux yet...

[03:14:45]

J-e-f-f-A:

All the USB2 ports are ATI SB700/SB800 contgrollers... hummm... Although some are "OHCI0", some are "EHCI", and one is "OHCI2"...

[03:14:56]

J-e-f-f-A:

*controllers

[03:15:42]

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[03:18:33]

J-e-f-f-A:

[R]: Humm... I just dug up a 5-port USB card with a NEC D7201010J chip on it... humm...

[03:18:55]

[R]:

note: i din'dt say i got rid of errors, just reduced them

[03:18:55]

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[03:18:59]

J-e-f-f-A:

[R]: Humm... I just dug up a 5-port USB card with a NEC D7201010J chip on it... humm...

[03:19:24]

J-e-f-f-A:

(woops... sorry, guess I scrolled up... didn't notice!)

[03:21:15]

J-e-f-f-A:

humm... seems I have 4 defunct mythcommflag processes somehow...

[03:21:31]

wagnerrp:

0.24 or 0.25?

[03:21:47]

J-e-f-f-A:

0.24-fixes from a day or two ago.

[03:22:17]

wagnerrp:

yeah, cant help you

[03:22:37]

wagnerrp:

that code has been completely rewritten

[03:23:01]

Beirdo:

specifically to fix that issue, in fact (amongst others)

[03:23:03]

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[03:23:20]

wagnerrp:

screw you american idol

[03:23:34]

J-e-f-f-A:

wagnerrp: what's the matter?

[03:23:47]

J-e-f-f-A:

oh, the contestants... ;-) hehehehe... Yeah, I saw that.

[03:23:57]

wagnerrp:

what?

[03:24:10]

wagnerrp:

i recorded human target... oh wait, no i didnt

[03:24:19]

wagnerrp:

i recorded garbage artificial tv

[03:25:03]

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[03:29:16]

[R]:

so a friend at work asked me if i could make mythcommflag skip the show and not skip the commercials

[03:29:17]

[R]:

hah

[03:29:49]

J-e-f-f-A:

[R]: You can do that I think — pull up the cut list and invert it, right? ;-)

[03:30:03]

[R]:

is there an invert button?

[03:31:03]

J-e-f-f-A:

[R]: I *think* there is, but I'm not sure to tell you the truth... ;-) I might be getting mixed up with other tools...

[03:31:38]

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[03:32:02]

[R]:

we were talking about the stupid bowl

[03:32:29]

J-e-f-f-A:

[R]: I figured as much.

[03:32:59]

J-e-f-f-A:

You can just use the jump buttons to jump to the next mark... that works perfectly....

[03:33:10]

[R]:

i'll just watch them online the next day

[03:34:08]

sphery:

[R]: E-Z-I

[03:34:15]

[R]:

sphery: ?

[03:34:28]

sphery:

EDIT-LOADSKIPLIST-INVERT

[03:34:35]

[R]:

ah

[03:35:00]

J-e-f-f-A:

Hehehe...;-) I'm not always right, but I guess I remembered that right... ;-)

[03:35:02]

sphery:

er, EDIT-LOADCOMMSKIP-INVERTMAP

[03:35:10]

sphery:

getting old... forgetting action names

[03:35:46]

wagnerrp:

can i get an action name?

[03:35:59]

sphery:

wagnerrp: at least I was able to say that one of his patches did the same thing :)

[03:36:08]

J-e-f-f-A:

PYTHON-MAN !!! ;-)

[03:36:09]

sphery:

i.e. calls the first mark a new cut

[03:36:19]

[R]:

omg

[03:36:22]

[R]:

theres been 200 episodes of Dog

[03:36:26]

[R]:

how XTREME is that?

[03:36:26]

sphery:

heh, good action name for him

[03:36:57]

sphery:

or Wiki Enforcer!

[03:37:15]

sphery:

actually, there would be a ton of good action names for him

[03:37:30]

wagnerrp:

not my fault people keep doing stupid things on the wiki

[03:37:51]

wagnerrp:

still not heard a peep out of that guy

[03:37:58]

sphery:

heh, yeah, not complaining--we need an enforcer

[03:38:18]

wagnerrp:

do i get a gun?

[03:38:40]

[R]:

just a beanbag one

[03:38:40]

sphery:

ah, peep... peep jousting... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I18FIrE5xfk

[03:39:41]

wagnerrp:

i was hoping squirrels were somehow involved

[03:40:20]

sphery:

kind of hard to see in the video

[03:43:55]

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[03:47:31]

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[03:48:19]

darkdrgn2k:

hey is there an easy way (command line) to get the resolution of an mkv file

[03:49:41]

wagnerrp:

mythffmpeg -i

[03:50:04]

wagnerrp:

if its from a bluray, its 1920x1080

[03:50:29]

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[03:50:43]

wagnerrp:

if its from tv, its 1920x1080, 1440x1080, 1280x720, 720x576, or 720x480

[03:50:51]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: what about 1080i vs 1080p

[03:51:24]

wagnerrp:

hard to tell from ffmpeg

[03:51:43]

wagnerrp:

from bluray, almost certainly p

[03:51:49]

darkdrgn2k:

so what IS the dif beterrn interlase and progressive?

[03:51:49]

wagnerrp:

from tv, almost certainly i

[03:52:03]

[R]:

x2 the data

[03:52:17]

wagnerrp:

interlaced means you only send half a frame on each update

[03:52:29]

wagnerrp:

you send the even lines, then the odd, then the even, then the....

[03:52:40]

darkdrgn2k:

hmm.. i thought the res drops.. for i since the frame is only 1/2 hight

[03:52:41]

wagnerrp:

if you ever hear people talking about 'combing', thats the cause

[03:52:53]

wagnerrp:

one field has updated with significant motion before the other

[03:53:08]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: yeh thats why you get jitters with blobs

[03:53:25]

wagnerrp:

in a sense, it is 1920x540

[03:53:34]

wagnerrp:

since each field, youre only updating half the lines

[03:53:36]

darkdrgn2k:

but ffmpeg shows full 1080

[03:53:45]

wagnerrp:

because the frame is 1080 lines tall

[03:53:47]

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[03:53:51]

darkdrgn2k:

k

[03:54:01]

darkdrgn2k:

hmm output of mythffmpeg is err?

[03:54:07]

wagnerrp:

running at 60 fields per second, or 30 frames a second

[03:54:19]

wagnerrp:

correct, you gave it no directives on how to transcode

[03:54:29]

wagnerrp:

so its just dumping the stream information and erroring out

[03:54:46]

darkdrgn2k:

k so time to redirect err so i can grep :)

[03:54:58]

darkdrgn2k:

(gawd can never remember 2>&1 )

[03:55:05]

wagnerrp:

no, the stream information is on stdout

[03:55:10]

wagnerrp:

you shouldnt need stderr

[03:55:14]

wagnerrp:

(i dont think)

[03:55:20]

darkdrgn2k:

nop

[03:55:26]

darkdrgn2k:

| grep wont work

[03:55:34]

darkdrgn2k:

2>&1 | grep Video does soo its stderr

[03:56:04]

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[03:56:43]

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[03:56:54]

wagnerrp:

no, the only thing on stderr is the 'at leas one output file must be specified'

[03:57:09]

wagnerrp:

erm.. nevermind, youre write

[03:57:11]

wagnerrp:

right

[03:57:16]

wagnerrp:

the whole thing is stderr

[03:57:19]

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[03:57:37]

darkdrgn2k:

LOL no worries :) at least im not blind

[03:58:14]

wagnerrp:

90000/1501? thats a new one

[03:59:14]

darkdrgn2k:

?

[03:59:33]

wagnerrp:

my ABC recordings are showing up as that framerate

[03:59:38]

wagnerrp:

when they should be 60000/1001

[04:00:39]

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[04:01:08]

darkdrgn2k:

framerate 6000?

[04:01:54]

wagnerrp:

no, 60000/1001

[04:02:09]

wagnerrp:

(just under 60fps)

[04:03:42]

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[04:06:39]

darkdrgn2k:

OOOooo makes snese

[04:06:53]

darkdrgn2k:

hey stupid question, by do h264 not have bitrate?

[04:08:03]

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[04:08:13]

wagnerrp:

eh?

[04:09:06]

darkdrgn2k:

doctype : matroska Duration: 02:24:47.68, start: 0.000000, bitrate: N/A

[04:09:11]

darkdrgn2k:

-> bitrate N/A

[04:10:47]

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[04:10:57]

darkdrgn2k:

1280x688 would be 720p right

[04:11:18]

wagnerrp:

1280x688 would be... nothing

[04:11:22]

wagnerrp:

no content comes in that resolution

[04:11:31]

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[04:12:14]

darkdrgn2k:

probably a re-encoded copy of a br or hd-dvd

[04:12:43]

[R]:

reencoded to chop off content?

[04:13:04]

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[04:13:17]

darkdrgn2k:

possibly black bars..

[04:13:26]

darkdrgn2k:

1998 movie so..

[04:13:38]

darkdrgn2k:

Stream #0.0(eng): Video: h264, yuv420p, 1280x688, PAR 1:1 DAR 80:43, 23.98 fps, 24 tbr, 1k tbn, 47.95 tbc

[04:13:48]

wagnerrp:

in 1998, movies were 720x480

[04:14:41]

sphery:

interlacing is simply a way of trading temporal resolution for spatial resolution

[04:15:05]

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[04:15:15]

darkdrgn2k:

sphery: intersting way of seeing it thanx

[04:15:15]

sphery:

meaning with interlaced, you get lower temporal resolution, but can use that to get greater spatial resolution

[04:15:25]

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[04:15:44]

darkdrgn2k:

hmm heres another one

[04:15:45]

darkdrgn2k:

1280x528

[04:16:09]

sphery:

2.4:1 "cinema wide" aspec

[04:16:11]

sphery:

t

[04:16:43]

darkdrgn2k:

1280x688 <- yeh thats 1280x720 cropped to remove bars

[04:17:04]

darkdrgn2k:

same with the 528

[04:17:26]

wagnerrp:

unless its something like bigbuckbunny, which was rendered directly to that resolution

[04:18:04]

wagnerrp:

aside from that, all content HD content will be in one of three resolutions

[04:18:14]

wagnerrp:

1920x1080, 1440x1080, and 1280x720

[04:18:17]

wagnerrp:

it comes in no other size

[04:22:16]

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[04:22:41]

darkdrgn2k:

but if a BR is ripped and cropped to eliminate the unnecesary BLACK BARS of a "cinema wide" aspec it will change :-P

[04:22:54]

wagnerrp:

but why would you bother

[04:22:58]

wagnerrp:

it takes /days/ to do that

[04:23:09]

darkdrgn2k:

7 hours actualy on a quad core LOL

[04:23:21]

wagnerrp:

not with decent quality settings

[04:23:27]

J-e-f-f-A:

So they don't have 'anamorphic' HD recordings, like they did with DVDs?

[04:23:51]

wagnerrp:

J-e-f-f-A: even anamorphic DVDs are still 720x480

[04:24:11]

wagnerrp:

at time of playback, they are stretched horizontally

[04:24:28]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: honestly in todays world if a buy a DVD and want to rip it re-encoded. its faster just to download the bloddy thing of the net and keep the br shrink wrapped LOL

[04:24:40]

J-e-f-f-A:

wagnerrp: right, but yields a higher vertical resolution when 'black-barred' on an anamorphic capable device... ;-)

[04:24:55]

wagnerrp:

darkdrgn2k: which is why you keep the original m2ts or BMDV folder

[04:25:08]

wagnerrp:

you havent purchased the movie you downloaded off the internet

[04:25:16]

wagnerrp:

you purchased the movie you hold in physical form in your hand

[04:25:28]

** [R] gets out his eye patch **

[04:25:32]

[R]:

oh... and my ru

[04:25:33]

[R]:

m

[04:25:41]

wagnerrp:

yo ho ho

[04:26:04]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: true.... but i still wanna see RIAA try to make that stick... LOL

[04:26:15]

darkdrgn2k:

then again with DCMA ...

[04:26:16]

darkdrgn2k:

ugh anyway

[04:26:49]

wagnerrp:

DMCA allows for personal decryption for personal use for compatibility sake

[04:26:51]

[R]:

try to make what stick? the fact that you are doing something clearly illegal?

[04:27:18]

wagnerrp:

they do not allow downloading someone elses copy, by any stretch of the imagination

[04:27:24]

darkdrgn2k:

[r]: just so im on the same page. whats "clearly illigal"

[04:27:34]

wagnerrp:

what you are doing

[04:27:40]

[R]:

darkdrgn2k: downlaoindg a movie

[04:27:42]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: first of all ALLEGIDLY LOL

[04:27:44]

darkdrgn2k:

[r]

[04:27:59]

darkdrgn2k:

[r]: If i own a legal copy....

[04:28:12]

darkdrgn2k:

[r]: who the F are they to tell me i cant have it in another format

[04:28:17]

Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +o iamlindoro

[04:28:21]

Mode for #mythtv-users by iamlindoro!~iamlindor@mythtv/developer/iamlindoro : +b *!*darkdrgn2@70.51.24.*

[04:28:21]

darkdrgn2k has been kicked from #mythtv-users by iamlindoro!~iamlindor@mythtv/developer/iamlindoro (darkdrgn2k)

[04:28:25]

iamlindoro:

He knows better

[04:28:29]

[R]:

and... boom goes the dynamite

[04:28:36]

J-e-f-f-A:

I could see that happening... ;-)

[04:28:37]

Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : -o iamlindoro

[04:28:40]

iamlindoro:

He's been warned, and kicked, before

[04:28:47]

iamlindoro:

No warnings with a history

[04:29:33]

** wagnerrp suggests iamlindoro's action name be 'the hammer' **

[04:29:56]

iamlindoro:

So who has ops in #mythtv since now he's gonna complain there

[04:30:04]

iamlindoro:

we'll have to rely on Beirdo for that

[04:30:08]

sphery:

did you ban him here or just kick?

[04:30:12]

iamlindoro:

kickbanned

[04:30:18]

iamlindoro:

I'll undo the ban in a few minutes

[04:30:22]

sphery:

heh

[04:30:23]

sphery:

just wondered

[04:30:25]

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[04:30:35]

wagnerrp:

sure about that?

[04:30:36]

darkdrgn3k:

iamlindoro: i get it i get it.. im sorry i even endulged

[04:30:37]

[R]:

ban evasion

[04:30:38]

[R]:

NICE

[04:30:40]

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[04:30:50]

iamlindoro:

wagnerrp, He has to run out of IPs eventually :P

[04:31:00]

darkdrgn3k:

iamlindoro: probably.. buy why bother im not here to fight

[04:31:08]

darkdrgn3k:

frankly i would of shut up if you just said the word LOL

[04:31:18]

iamlindoro:

darkdrgn3k, The reason you didn't get a warning is because I have clear recollection of having warned, and kicked, you before

[04:31:27]

iamlindoro:

Please let this be the last time

[04:31:28]

darkdrgn3k:

iamlindoro: technibally

[04:31:34]

darkdrgn3k:

*sigH* yeh yeh your right

[04:31:41]

Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +o iamlindoro

[04:31:43]

sphery:

darkdrgn3k: he was planning to unban you momentarily, anyway... but we don't want that discussion here

[04:31:44]

darkdrgn3k:

anyway i wont piss you guy soff any more.. i need sleep anyway

[04:31:45]

darkdrgn3k:

nite

[04:31:47]

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[04:31:58]

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[04:32:03]

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[04:32:07]

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[04:32:12]

darkdrgn2k:

Thanx R...

[04:32:51]

iamlindoro:

He didn't get you kicked, you did. But let's just call it a lesson and get on with it

[04:32:56]

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[04:33:32]

iamlindoro is now known as BanHammerBrown

[04:33:33]

darkdrgn2k:

iamlindoro: didnt mean [r] LOL

[04:33:36]

BanHammerBrown:

oooh, it's available

[04:33:44]

BanHammerBrown is now known as iamlindoro

[04:33:45]

sphery:

heh

[04:34:13]

darkdrgn2k:

sphery: i get why this is a no-go subject on these open source apps.. i stand behind waht you guys do 100%... just dont get enough sleep

[04:34:30]

darkdrgn2k:

so i do stupid things LOL

[04:34:40]

iamlindoro:

It's okay, appreciate your being understanding about why

[04:34:48]

iamlindoro:

Let's just not all make a habit of it ;)

[04:34:48]

darkdrgn2k:

ANYWAY thanx for all the help wagnerrp... glad to see myth has its own copy of ffmpeg

[04:35:23]

darkdrgn2k:

10–4

[04:35:28]

darkdrgn2k:

ok now im really of.. LOL nite all

[04:35:32]

iamlindoro:

good night

[04:36:26]

iamlindoro:

I'm a people person. I deal with the customers so the engineers don't have to. Don't you get that? What the hell is wrong with you people!

[04:36:27]

wagnerrp:

how does c++ tell if one object is equal to another? just the memory location?

[04:36:45]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: if its a pointer yes

[04:37:16]

darkdrgn2k:

wagnerrp: also depends if thers a copy constructor :)

[04:37:29]

sphery:

and an == operator overload

[04:39:31]

wagnerrp:

still trying to wrap my head around socket management in the backend protocol code

[04:40:24]

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[04:41:03]

sphery:

heh, if you do, you may be the first one ever

[04:41:36]

wagnerrp:

well ive branched the playbacksock into a number of different handlers for different purposes

[04:41:49]

wagnerrp:

playbacksock being a wrapper for mythsocket, which is the actual communication socket

[04:42:10]

wagnerrp:

but if i want a connection to serve multiple purposes, i need to run multiple wrappers for each mythsocket

[04:42:56]

wagnerrp:

so ive got a struct that stores each in a list

[04:43:26]

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[04:43:44]

wagnerrp:

but if i actually want to enforce the protocol version check (apparently we're not currently doing so), i need to spawn a handler to track it at the version check

[04:43:54]

wagnerrp:

but the struct needs information from the announce which hasnt happened yet

[04:44:16]

wagnerrp:

so i need to update the...

[04:44:32]

wagnerrp:

just becoming a huge maze

[04:45:54]

wagnerrp:

s/a/more of a/

[04:48:41]

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[05:15:37]

wagnerrp:

Beirdo: around?

[05:16:18]

Beirdo:

kinda. I'm still at work, but was about to try to catch a bus. Whazzup?

[05:16:31]

wagnerrp:

im failing to rebase

[05:16:40]

wagnerrp:

ive got my local 'modular-proto' branch

[05:16:47]

wagnerrp:

which i want to bring up to date with master

[05:16:56]

wagnerrp:

should just be 'git rebase master modular-proto', right?

[05:17:06]

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[05:17:06]

Beirdo:

git rebase -i master

[05:17:14]

Beirdo:

while checked out in modular-proto

[05:17:22]

Beirdo:

-i for interactive

[05:17:36]

wagnerrp:

non-interactively, it does nothing

[05:17:43]

wagnerrp:

interactively, it tells me its not going to do anything

[05:17:56]

Beirdo:

are you on master?

[05:18:03]

wagnerrp:

im on modular-proto

[05:18:14]

Beirdo:

hmm

[05:18:22]

Beirdo:

git log still shows your commits?

[05:18:48]

wagnerrp:

still shows mine, doesnt show any else since i branched in on the 11th

[05:19:08]

wagnerrp:

hold on

[05:19:16]

wagnerrp:

master doesnt report any since the 11th either

[05:19:19]

Beirdo:

ahh

[05:19:23]

Beirdo:

git checkout master

[05:19:26]

Beirdo:

then git pull :)

[05:19:31]

wagnerrp:

i did

[05:19:33]

Beirdo:

then go back to your new branch

[05:19:50]

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[05:20:09]

wagnerrp:

would doing this in workdirs be screwing something up?

[05:20:27]

Beirdo:

shouldn't that I know of

[05:20:56]

Beirdo:

so, on master... git pull didn't get you anything new?

[05:20:57]

wagnerrp:

well somewhere in there, it magically fixed itself

[05:21:02]

Beirdo:

heh

[05:21:05]

Beirdo:

OK then

[05:21:08]

wagnerrp:

thanks

[05:21:28]

** wagnerrp fears the day he has to merge this thing in **

[05:21:39]

Beirdo:

no problem. I'm betting you pulled while on another branch, so it fetched the new stuff but didn't actually merge it into master

[05:21:52]

wagnerrp:

yeah, thats what i did

[05:21:54]

Beirdo:

bus should be there in 12 min

[05:22:00]

wagnerrp:

it /said/ it pulled stuff from master

[05:22:08]

wagnerrp:

but apparently didnt actually do it

[05:22:18]

Beirdo:

it fetched it, but it only merges the branch you are on

[05:22:25]

wagnerrp:

ah

[05:22:34]

wagnerrp:

so i have to fast-forward the other branches independently

[05:22:36]

Beirdo:

so the commits were all there, but your master still pointed where it did before

[05:22:39]

Beirdo:

yep

[05:22:48]

wagnerrp:

makes sense... sorta...

[05:22:55]

Beirdo:

it makes some sense, yeah :)

[05:23:05]

Beirdo:

anyways, I'd better head to the bus stop

[05:26:52]

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[05:28:37]

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[05:29:01]

wagnerrp:

Beirdo^2: can i merge a branch into master without closing it?

[05:29:10]

Beirdo^2:

Yes

[05:29:23]

wagnerrp:

then it probably wont be too bad

[05:29:48]

wagnerrp:

ill get the library going, create a fileserver, and move the jobqueue over to it first

[05:29:52]

Beirdo^2:

It will keep track of how much is merged for the next merge

[05:29:59]

wagnerrp:

smaller stuff so it can be debugged without affecting anything major

[05:30:08]

Beirdo^2:

Sounds good

[05:30:20]

wagnerrp:

then get the backend moved over

[05:30:22]

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[05:30:48]

Beirdo^2:

That will be more fun. Hehe

[05:30:50]

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[05:31:32]

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[05:31:50]

Stevezau:

god damn it... Dvico nano plus does not have linux drivers??!?! grr

[05:31:59]

wagnerrp:

watch the language

[05:32:40]

Beirdo^2:

!url tuners

[05:32:40]

MythLogBot:

tuners: http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hardwar . . . _Information

[05:32:59]

wagnerrp:

well thats useful...

[05:33:08]

wagnerrp:

its listed under the 'some DViCO products include...'

[05:33:15]

wagnerrp:

but doesnt actually say whether or not its supported

[05:33:20]

Beirdo^2:

Haha.

[05:33:35]

wagnerrp:

seriously, its just a list of their DVB-T devices

[05:33:52]

wagnerrp:

someone really needs to get some initiative and clean up their wiki

[05:33:57]

Beirdo^2:

Well its still the best info sourcce

[05:34:26]

Stevezau:

ive read the nano works but not nano plus..

[05:34:36]

Stevezau:

they are nano2 supported.. wonder if thats the same as nano plus

[05:35:27]

wagnerrp:

looking to purchase? or just find cheap?

[05:35:37]

wagnerrp:

or, already have i mean

[05:35:56]

Stevezau:

already have

[05:36:23]

Stevezau:

i didnt do enough research.. didnt realise nano+ was not supported where nano is

[05:36:44]

iamlindoro:

wagnerrp, Good lord, this nhtrader guy fully destroyed the user guid and turned it into a giant mythbuntu guide that busts your bandwidth cap, didn't he?

[05:36:52]

Beirdo^2:

Oooh. Franklin planner on sellout.woot

[05:37:23]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: technically, he didnt destroy anything

[05:37:30]

wagnerrp:

its a brand new page he created

[05:37:37]

wagnerrp:

so we can just delete it no worse for the wear

[05:38:48]

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[05:39:18]

wagnerrp:

lets put full color lossless images of a empty desktop and a high entropy background!

[05:39:30]

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[05:40:15]

Beirdo^2:

Real nice. Bonehead.

[05:41:19]

wagnerrp:

this little bit here is choice... http://mythtv.org/wiki?title=User_Manual%3AGe . . . ;oldid=50920

[05:41:33]

wagnerrp:

he couldnt figure out why the links to the images kept getting deleted... :)

[05:41:56]

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[05:42:11]

Beirdo^2:

Hehe

[05:42:47]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: oh, and its not actually mythbuntu

[05:42:59]

wagnerrp:

its the mythbuntu packages on a stock ubuntu install

[05:43:06]

wagnerrp:

he thinks hes running xfce

[05:43:14]

wagnerrp:

but that sure looks like gnome to me

[05:44:25]

Beirdo^2:

Amusing

[05:44:56]

kormoc:

Hrm... Can you actually release images via GPL?

[05:45:15]

wagnerrp:

sure, why not?

[05:45:18]

Shadow__X:

in one of the menus within the picture there is a about xfce section

[05:45:48]

Shadow__X:

also thats how a stock mythbuntu install looks. They just change the look of xfce a bit

[05:45:54]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, the source clauses don't really make sense

[05:46:07]

Shadow__X:

unless, of course i am mistaken

[05:46:09]

wagnerrp:

well you always make the source available

[05:46:37]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, if you argue the image is the source then you're not required to release modifications to that source

[05:47:37]

kormoc:

I guess you could argue lossless images are source and lossly are not and get the distinction, but it's weak

[05:47:59]

wagnerrp:

well either way, the guy had no idea what was going on

[05:48:45]

kormoc:

There we go again, the Mythtv Man is keeping the Ubuntu people down

[05:48:53]

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[05:48:53]

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[05:49:09]

wagnerrp:

Shadow__X: could be right... ive only ever seen screen shots of xfce with the auto-scaling bar on the bottom

[05:49:17]

wagnerrp:

didnt know you could make it look like gnome

[05:50:24]

Shadow__X:

yup

[05:50:27]

sphery:

would that be the XForms GNOMEn Environment?

[05:56:50]

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[05:57:21]

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[05:57:30]

Beirdo:

home... sweet couch

[05:57:37]

Beirdo:

and still have to login to work

[06:01:24]

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[06:08:08]

kormoc:

sphery, FYI, binary db backup (110 gigs) with bzip2, 7.6G with plzip defaults, 11G with bzip2, 28G with gzip. pbzip2 faster then pigz by 20 minutes (total time 1h 8m for pbzip2), faster then plzip by 52m. pbzip2 is the winner

[06:08:17]

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[06:09:36]

wagnerrp:

so gzip just sucks all around

[06:09:45]

wagnerrp:

bzip was actually faster than gzip?

[06:09:56]

kormoc:

parallel bzip was faster then parallel gzip, aye

[06:10:10]

wagnerrp:

surprising...

[06:10:17]

wagnerrp:

never used any of the parallel blends

[06:10:27]

wagnerrp:

but serial gzip is far faster than serial bzip

[06:10:58]

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[06:11:49]

kormoc:

pbzip appears to be using much newer threading libs (nptl rather then pthreads) which might explain a fair bit, it also uses larger chunks which we're optimized for (6 disk raid 1+0) and we're storing on NFS, so the decreased write size has a fairly large impact.

[06:12:01]

Beirdo:

pbjzip :)

[06:12:17]

wagnerrp:

parallel blowjob?

[06:12:26]

Beirdo:

ummm

[06:12:31]

Beirdo:

OK that works too

[06:12:55]

Beirdo:

I was thinking more like PB & J

[06:13:01]

Beirdo:

but whatever... perv :)

[06:13:08]

kormoc:

Sure you were.... ;)

[06:13:25]

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[06:13:40]

sphery:

kormoc: cool, glad you got one that's pretty good compression and still reasonably fast

[06:14:29]

sphery:

wagnerrp: is serial gzip faster than serial bzip on binary data files, too?

[06:14:30]

wagnerrp:

68 minutes of a dual quad system for 100GB of storage?

[06:14:53]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, yes, but with a active database running at the same time

[06:15:02]

wagnerrp:

sphery: yeah, i was using it to compress down CFD results

[06:15:29]

wagnerrp:

bzip was about a third as fast as gzip

[06:15:45]

kormoc:

we run our spares paired so each spare has two active database servers running. We only take down one at a time to backup so while the backup is running one slave is still running or for the second one it's catching up (even more IO activity)

[06:15:49]

wagnerrp:

but yielded about 45% compression, versus gzip's 25%

[06:15:54]

sphery:

it was definitely far faster on text--30s vs 8min for my db backups on my Athlon XP 2400+

[06:15:56]

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[06:16:10]

kormoc:

hrm

[06:16:17]

kormoc:

I wonder if I actually screwed the result set

[06:16:28]

wagnerrp:

specifically, binary namelist output from fortran

[06:16:29]

sphery:

on my X2 5200+, it's 14s vs 2m

[06:16:38]

kormoc:

I'm using --with-compression-prog=pbzip2 but I used tar --stdout | pigz > file.tar.gz

[06:16:55]

kormoc:

I wonder if the pipe/redirection caused the overhead difference

[06:17:19]

wagnerrp:

since it had to route through bash, rather than directly?

[06:17:23]

kormoc:

Yeah

[06:17:54]

sphery:

I think data flows through pipes pretty quickly

[06:17:57]

kormoc:

I wouldn't expect it to, but I've never measured it

[06:17:58]

wagnerrp:

new tactic, im just going to add a 'validated' member to MythSocket directly

[06:18:03]

sphery:

faster than, say, through a series of tubes

[06:18:08]

kormoc:

indeed

[06:18:27]

wagnerrp:

its not worth the effort of trying to handle that externally

[06:18:30]

kormoc:

I should callgrind it sometime

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[06:20:34]

sphery:

heh, just saw an ION TV commercial for the "Back to the Future" trilogy. They had a nice 1.21 Gigawatts rap/mix going

[06:21:04]

wagnerrp:

are they going to play it 1.21 gigatimes?

[06:21:38]

sphery:

heh, likely

[06:22:32]

wagnerrp:

they still havent released bluray copies of that?

[06:26:16]

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[06:53:47]

wagnerrp:

any thoughts on running a protocol server in the frontend, in place of the existing control socket?

[06:54:47]

wagnerrp:

when this is done, it would amount to all of a few lines to add it to the frontend

[06:55:05]

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[06:55:07]

wagnerrp:

and then plugins could hook into it at will to add functionality

[06:55:25]

wagnerrp:

of course we could do a similar modularization of the control socket

[06:57:06]

wagnerrp:

a bit more complicated for clients to interface with

[06:57:11]

wagnerrp:

but still, not significantly more

[06:57:22]

wagnerrp:

and its not like they can use existing telnet code as it is

[07:00:30]

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[07:04:46]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: is 'SCAN_VIDEOS' a call that will only ever be made against the master backend?

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[07:42:43]

dannyboy1121x:

Would DVB-S2 tuners also support DVB-S?

[07:43:20]

wagnerrp:

typically, yes

[07:43:27]

wagnerrp:

but not guaranteed

[07:43:57]

** kormoc waits for the "Will this specific model support it?" question **

[07:44:10]

dannyboy1121x:

Excellent – as long as I know it's worth checking out :) .. I don't have a model yet

[07:44:30]

kormoc:

Ha! Foiled again

[07:44:36]

dannyboy1121x:

Just want to know I'm not wasting my time looking for the impossible

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[08:03:44]

dannyboy1121x:

Any recommendations on USB DVB-S2 tuners? linuxtv lists the TeVii 660 as supported (surprised to see no Hauppauge)

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[08:42:36]

highzeth:

I have 2 TBS DVB-S2 tuners(6980 PCIe), they are solid. They produce QBOX S2 USB tuners, but I have 0 experience with those.

[08:42:48]

highzeth:

http://www.tbsdtv.com/english/product/QBoxS2.html

[08:45:51]

dannyboy1121x:

Thanks for that – will check it out. I was thinking about using a dual core atom NetTop with nvidia ION + usb tuners .... but I'm starting to think I'll cause myself issues in the long run so may look for a low power unit that also supports pci slots instead

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[09:08:00]

Stevezau:

hmm i press alt + f7 to see the signal strength but nothing comes up

[09:08:07]

Stevezau:

seems non of the alt + combos work

[09:09:12]

Stevezau:

any ideas

[09:18:50]

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[09:28:35]

mianos:

does anyone know where I add the jamu options?

[09:28:36]

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[09:54:14]

jcarlos:

Can someone tell me how many days mythfilldatabase grab by default (no --max-days parameter) ?

[09:54:59]

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[10:07:20]

kormoc:

3, Today, Tomorrow, and last

[10:07:21]

Stevezau:

hmm setting up my new mythbackend/frontend.. its a shuttle with geforce gtx 580 and intel i7 950 cpu.. I've got latest nvidia drivers but for some reason the video playback seems to be in slow motion or skipping alot.. The cpu/gpu is not under any load.. max 10% usage.. i've tried VDPAU and CPU++ but same issue.. dunno where else to look..

[10:08:02]

Stevezau:

btw.. i tried to play a vid in xbmc and it works fine..

[10:08:33]

kormoc:

Uae Slim

[10:08:56]

Stevezau:

I tried slim.. same issue

[10:09:15]

kormoc:

do you have UseEvents enabled in your xorg.conf?

[10:09:26]

Stevezau:

this is a beefy box.. Ive got another shuttle (ion2 and atom cpu) as a frontend and that works fine conencting to this backend

[10:09:45]

Stevezau:

ah

[10:09:46]

Stevezau:

its not there

[10:09:48]

Stevezau:

ill try enable that

[10:10:25]

jcarlos:

kormoc: My mythfilldatabase currently is getty 15 days ... and up ... http://pastebin.com/7QDK2pDr Am I missing anything ?

[10:11:56]

kormoc:

jcarlos, Your provider offers 15 days of data. Different providers offer different amounts of days and incomplete days are always attempted to be grabbed.

[10:16:25]

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[10:16:34]

Stevezau:

hmm

[10:16:42]

Stevezau:

no luck.. UseEvents didnt make a difference

[10:16:57]

Stevezau:

it's strange it's as if its running at 0.5x speeds

[10:20:38]

kormoc:

Verify your playback profile isn't set to half speed?

[10:20:42]

hashbang:

morning all

[10:21:05]

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[10:22:37]

jcarlos:

kormoc: So I must use --max-days argument of mythfilldatabase to force 3 days ?

[10:23:15]

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[10:24:11]

kormoc:

if that's what you want, yes

[10:24:29]

jcarlos:

kormoc: Yes ... that is what I want ... thanks ... :-)

[10:24:33]

Stevezau:

kormoc is that a setting?? ive never seen that

[10:24:38]

Stevezau:

just looked.

[10:24:58]

kormoc:

there is... somewhere

[10:25:00]

jcarlos:

Stevezau: The setting is "mythfilldatabase additional arguments"

[10:25:43]

jcarlos:

Stevezau: In General section of mythtv-setup ...

[10:25:47]

jcarlos:

Last screen

[10:27:09]

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[10:27:16]

Stevezau:

frontend right not backend?

[10:27:53]

kormoc:

You guys are talking about different settings

[10:28:42]

Stevezau:

yeh i cant see it anywhere

[10:31:11]

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[10:33:05]

jcarlos:

kormoc: Stevezau: Oops ... sorry ...

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[10:35:00]

Stevezau:

hmm debug shows this.. Player(0): Video is 30 frames ahead of audio, doubling video frame interval to slow down.

[10:38:45]

jcarlos:

kormoc: I have configured mythtv-backend to use ONLY a grabber XML to get the program guide, but I see a "Use on air guide" in each channel in the "Channel Editor" of mythtv-setup. What is the usefullness of this option in my configuration ?

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[10:52:13]

hashbang:

heya, I've got a file (recorded from BBC4) which demonstrates http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/5943 ? Is there an approved way of getting it to the developers?

[10:52:36]

hashbang:

(thinking mainly in terms of copyright, but partially technical...)

[10:52:47]

Stevezau:

figured it out

[10:52:51]

Stevezau:

was an issue with alsa config

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[11:25:40]

Lala_Chersi:

hi there i ve installed myth tv in ubuntu cant set it right for my tv card ... any ideas

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[11:30:56]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: do you have your TV card working reliably with other apps?

[11:32:17]

Lala_Chersi:

well just installed it and i am new to linux .... someone said install myth tv and tv will work ... it works on windows though

[11:33:09]

Lala_Chersi:

how to check the card is working right ????

[11:33:25]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: what kind of card is it?

[11:33:38]

Lala_Chersi:

msi tv@nywhere plus

[11:33:47]

Lala_Chersi:

pci card

[11:34:34]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: analogue SECAM, presumably?

[11:34:43]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: try tvtime or xawtv

[11:35:02]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: make sure it works with those before trying to get MythTV going

[11:35:23]

Lala_Chersi:

tv time is also not able to scan for channels ... i ll try the other software though

[11:35:57]

Lala_Chersi:

how to check the card is installed correctly ???

[11:36:32]

hashbang:

analogue cards are a pain to get working, IMHO

[11:36:49]

hashbang:

so many different variations in both tuners and broadcast standards

[11:36:55]

Lala_Chersi:

Multimedia controller: Philips Semiconductors SAA7131/SAA7133/SAA7135 Video Broadcast Decoder (rev d1)

[11:37:12]

Lala_Chersi:

this is the precise device ... i suppose

[11:37:49]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: it pretty much comes down to trial and error in my experience

[11:38:18]

Lala_Chersi:

so u say i try the third software there ??/

[11:38:34]

Lala_Chersi:

kk i ll get back to u after installing and trying that

[11:38:36]

Lala_Chersi:

thanx

[11:40:05]

Lala_Chersi:

ok xatv is catching some channels

[11:40:07]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: no problem. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful

[11:40:17]

Lala_Chersi:

xawtv*

[11:40:30]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: ok, good start. :-)

[11:40:37]

Lala_Chersi:

yeah

[11:40:59]

Lala_Chersi:

i ll tune this one right and then can u help me with mythtv

[11:41:54]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: you now want to read http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO.html and http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/User_Manual:MythTV_structure

[11:42:31]

hashbang:

Lala_Chersi: be warned that if you're new to Linux, it's going to be a steep learning curve!

[11:43:23]

Lala_Chersi:

ok ... thanx ... i ll take my chances ... after all i ll learn something in the way

[11:44:05]

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[11:50:01]

mattwj2002:

so I have a question

[11:50:21]

mattwj2002:

x264 can only be encoded on 4 cores right?

[11:51:07]

mattwj2002:

so if you had 16 cores could you do 4 encodings at a time?

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[12:29:45]

wagnerrp:

mattwj2002: what makes you think that?

[12:29:56]

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[12:31:48]

mattwj2002:

well I was talking in here earlier

[12:32:19]

mattwj2002:

and someone said that x264 maxes out at 4 cores 2 threads per core

[12:32:46]

rileyp:

upnp mythtv reading wiki trouleshooting it says Make sure you have a route for 239.0.0.0/8 out your lan nic BEFORE mythbackend starts (route add -net 239.0.0.0/8 eth0). It seems it won't work if you add the route later.

[12:32:54]

rileyp:

how do I do that

[12:34:05]

mattwj2002:

you want to multicast?

[12:34:08]

mattwj2002:

O_O

[12:34:25]

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[12:34:35]

rileyp:

my sony bluray player cannot open any files

[12:34:52]

rileyp:

yet my samsung can open recordings....

[12:35:29]

rileyp:

I dont even n\know what multicast means

[12:35:49]

rileyp:

another noob annoyance

[12:36:08]

mattwj2002:

it is a networking term

[12:36:18]

mattwj2002:

one packet to many

[12:36:26]

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[12:37:02]

mattwj2002:

a 239 is a class D address in the multicast range

[12:38:15]

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[12:41:19]

rileyp:

mattwj2002 Do I add the route to a file?

[12:41:28]

rileyp:

Im using ubuntu

[12:43:02]

mattwj2002:

http://www.ubuntugeek.com/howto-add-permanent . . . -ubuntu.html

[12:43:04]

mattwj2002:

:)

[12:45:51]

wagnerrp:

mattwj2002: x264 will use as many threads as you want

[12:45:55]

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[12:46:09]

wagnerrp:

h264 encoding is what they call 'ridiculously parallel'

[12:46:16]

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[12:47:15]

mattwj2002:

wagnerrp: I guess I was misinformed then

[12:47:16]

wagnerrp:

h264 has a concept of 'slices', where each slice is an independent video domain

[12:47:25]

wagnerrp:

each domain is encoded and decoded in parallel

[12:47:30]

mattwj2002:

see that is what I thought originally

[12:47:31]

wagnerrp:

so one domain means one thread

[12:47:48]

mattwj2002:

at the time I said man I wish I had 80 cores :)

[12:48:00]

wagnerrp:

the more domains you have, the less compressed your file is

[12:48:31]

wagnerrp:

and while on the normal magnitude of order, the difference in compressibility is hardly noticeable

[12:48:39]

wagnerrp:

at 80 cores, youre starting to get a bit excessive

[12:48:56]

mattwj2002:

true but think how fast it would be hehe

[12:48:57]

mattwj2002:

:D

[12:49:10]

mattwj2002:

I remember a long time ago

[12:49:18]

wagnerrp:

better to chop the video up into time slices and stitch them together later, at that point

[12:49:54]

mattwj2002:

Intel showed off an 80 core prototype processor

[12:50:08]

mattwj2002:

it was the size of a pizza pan

[12:50:09]

mattwj2002:

hehe

[12:50:12]

wagnerrp:

useless in todays programming paradigm

[12:50:18]

rileyp:

thanks matt iwas already on that webpage I sorted it thanks anyway now to go and test

[12:50:25]

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[12:50:35]

wagnerrp:

people dont know how to program for that level of parallelization

[12:50:48]

wagnerrp:

and to be honest, most problems dont lend themselves to that sort of thing anyway

[12:50:48]

mattwj2002:

your welcome rileyp

[12:51:27]

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[12:51:29]

mattwj2002:

so wagnerrp what is the next step?

[12:51:37]

mattwj2002:

Ghz sure are not getting up there

[12:51:52]

mattwj2002:

it has to be more cores

[12:52:02]

mattwj2002:

doesn't it?

[12:52:07]

wagnerrp:

theyll have to

[12:52:29]

wagnerrp:

more cores and more efficient cores will only get us so far

[12:53:07]

wagnerrp:

were going to hit a wall at some point where applications are just not going to get any faster by going more parallel

[12:53:58]

wagnerrp:

servers will have a bit further to go, since theyll be servicing lots of requests simultaneously

[12:54:40]

wagnerrp:

but our current kernels, and the process schedulers they use, are going to start struggling in fairly short order

[12:55:04]

wagnerrp:

nothing currently mainstream could manage that 80-core processor efficiently

[12:55:21]

mattwj2002:

that makes sense

[12:55:29]

mattwj2002:

it is like working

[12:55:42]

mattwj2002:

multitasking only gets you so far

[12:55:44]

mattwj2002:

:)

[12:56:44]

mattwj2002:

Linux I think handles multithreading better than windows

[12:56:51]

mattwj2002:

or is that changing?

[12:57:05]

mattwj2002:

I know back in the day that was the case

[13:02:02]

wagnerrp:

i dont know about that

[13:02:11]

wagnerrp:

id like to say linux is better

[13:02:27]

wagnerrp:

but at least the normal versions of windows are CPU limited to small values

[13:03:02]

wagnerrp:

i think the desktop versions were only recently increased to 8-cores for the 4-core hyperthreaded i7s

[13:06:39]

russell5:

does anyone use software raid on their backend? is it worth it? i wanted to do raid 5 with 3 2tb disks

[13:06:54]

wagnerrp:

RAID5 with 3 drives isnt worth it

[13:06:58]

wagnerrp:

buy a fourth and do 10

[13:07:25]

russell5:

i didnt know you could do software 10

[13:07:54]

wagnerrp:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/RAID#RAID10.2CF2

[13:08:11]

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[13:08:50]

wagnerrp:

or stick with 3 drives and do 1E

[13:09:18]

russell5:

1e?

[13:09:37]

wagnerrp:

mirroring using arbitrary drives

[13:09:41]

russell5:

ahhh

[13:10:23]

wagnerrp:

the data appears twice, but there are no directly mirrored drives

[13:10:42]

russell5:

i should look into that.

[13:10:55]

russell5:

well i would already need to buy 2 more 2tb drives

[13:10:55]

wagnerrp:

any one drive can fail, and you dont have the performance hit resulting from it that you have with RAID5

[13:11:04]

wagnerrp:

already?

[13:11:16]

russell5:

well to do the raid 5

[13:11:22]

russell5:

i have 1 1tb and a 2tb drive now

[13:11:40]

wagnerrp:

note that there is no use to using RAID for recordings

[13:12:14]

wagnerrp:

better to stick with independent drives

[13:12:24]

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[13:12:37]

wagnerrp:

and if you want a redundant storage for archive, move them over later

[13:12:39]

russell5:

i was more looking for backup not to much about performance

[13:13:05]

wagnerrp:

RAID is not a backup solution

[13:13:43]

russell5:

i know but i at least wanted to protect against a signle drive failure

[13:13:51]

russell5:

instead of loosing those 2tb of data

[13:14:06]

wagnerrp:

its a redundancy solution, not backup

[13:14:09]

wagnerrp:

there is a difference

[13:14:21]

wagnerrp:

redundancy is for use against hardware failure

[13:14:29]

wagnerrp:

backup is for use against user failure

[13:14:29]

russell5:

your right

[13:21:36]

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[13:41:43]

hashbang:

russell5: I've got a 1TB RAID1 array, which I run LVM on top of and split into 5 200G jfs volumes, which I then add into my Default storage group. I then have two more unRAIDed 200G partitions (as ext4) which I add into a different storage group ("filler")

[13:41:58]

wagnerrp:

why?

[13:42:00]

hashbang:

jfs can't be shrunk, hence the 5x200 kludge

[13:42:23]

wagnerrp:

why would you split them up like that?

[13:43:17]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: the 5x200 is stuff I want to watch eventually. If I want to drop some space from that storage group, I just scatter the files of one volume across the remaining 4, then re-mkfs and mount it elsewhere.

[13:43:42]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: ideally, I'd have it as 1x1TB jfs, and shrink if necessary

[13:44:50]

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[13:46:02]

justinh_:

woohoo I got access to my home IP again

[13:46:15]

justinh_ is now known as justinh

[13:46:45]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: the filler is stuff I don't care about losing if a drive dies

[13:48:02]

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[13:50:05]

hashbang:

justinh: cool. What happened?

[13:50:34]

wagnerrp:

he has a dynamic ip, and at some point, someone who had his ip previous did something bad and got on a black list

[13:50:42]

wagnerrp:

now hes got a new ip that isnt on that blacklist

[13:50:52]

justinh:

my IP hadn't changed in ages

[13:51:00]

justinh:

maybe the blacklisting had though

[13:52:04]

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[13:52:49]

justinh:

found 12 off-air channels. hmm.

[13:55:56]

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[13:58:07]

swerve:

stupid question – or maybe i'm just losing it

[13:58:26]

swerve:

where did option for OSD display time and location disappear to?

[13:58:31]

swerve:

can't find them after upgrade

[13:58:46]

wagnerrp:

probably dictated by the theme now

[13:59:31]

swerve:

yes, could have sworn there were gui options for those – did they get dropped in 0.24 upgrade?

[13:59:51]

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[14:00:18]

wagnerrp:

it probably gets dictated by the theme now, rather than being adjustable by the user

[14:00:41]

justinh:

part of the settings clearup

[14:00:44]

swerve:

eeks, don't like the sound of that – 'dictated' lol

[14:00:57]

justinh:

it's okay though – users can still edit theme xml

[14:01:13]

justinh:

FOR NOW. MUHAHAHAHA

[14:01:22]

swerve:

if it's not in the gui, would it be in the xml, though?

[14:01:30]

justinh:

yeah it'll be in the theme xml

[14:01:38]

justinh:

that's how the theme would dictate it, see

[14:01:43]

swerve:

or maybe just copy those options from another theme that still adjusts (if any do)?

[14:01:54]

wagnerrp:

swerve: the idea is that making such things dynamic, editable by the user, would screw up placement

[14:02:00]

justinh:

no, it's not adjustable

[14:02:04]

justinh:

the theme sets it

[14:02:18]

justinh:

or it might not. the timeout might actually be hard set

[14:02:24]

justinh:

I dunno, I've not updated to 0.24 yet

[14:02:30]

swerve:

i think it's better to give user control of that, jmho

[14:02:36]

wagnerrp:

so the theme sets it, and the theme ensures its selection of settings will comply with the layout

[14:02:42]

swerve:

people have different preferences, i don't see it as screwing up anything

[14:03:12]

swerve:

i think even the timeout used to be adjustable

[14:03:13]

justinh:

swerve: so yeah let's have settings for every possible conceivable thing anybody would want to change. I want different settings on different days – or even at different times on different days. Make it so!

[14:03:26]

swerve:

justinh: right!

[14:03:29]

swerve:

;D

[14:03:37]

wagnerrp:

oh, youre talking about the time before it fades...

[14:03:38]

swerve:

i mean optimally, why not

[14:03:47]

swerve:

that and location

[14:03:53]

wagnerrp:

thought you were actually talking about some numeric time displayed on screen

[14:04:05]

justinh:

and let's continue to make it even harder to navigate the setup menus and ever more confusing to configure. YAY!

[14:04:12]

swerve:

no, like when the OSD comes on telling you how much you FF, or during pause, etc.

[14:04:39]

swerve:

well, i don't think removing functionality is a good answer to improving usability ;-)

[14:04:40]

justinh:

if it's not already set by the theme, the timeout will eventually be set by the theme

[14:04:48]

justinh:

swerve: oh it so totally is

[14:05:00]

justinh:

very few people use a lot of the more esoteric settings

[14:05:08]

swerve:

if the usability is bad, then there are ways to improve that without removing functionality

[14:05:13]

wagnerrp:

swerve: there are far too many settings in mythtv that 0.5% of the users will ever want to set

[14:05:17]

wagnerrp:

but since they are there

[14:05:25]

wagnerrp:

users will feel they need to set it

[14:05:28]

swerve:

i agree – so get rid of those – lol

[14:05:31]

wagnerrp:

knobs must be turned

[14:05:38]

swerve:

i need my knobs

[14:05:38]

justinh:

you have a choice

[14:05:41]

swerve:

:-(

[14:05:43]

swerve:

and switches

[14:05:44]

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[14:05:50]

swerve:

and options :D

[14:05:57]

justinh:

so patch mythtv to accept changes in a config file

[14:06:01]

swerve:

comes with being a control freak, there's no alternative

[14:06:13]

justinh:

you don't likely need to change that stuff very often anyway so why even have a UI for it?

[14:06:18]

swerve:

if i knew how to do that, i would

[14:06:34]

swerve:

just because it makes it better and more flexible for the end users

[14:06:34]

justinh:

I didn't know how to do anything, before I learned how to do that 'anything'

[14:06:44]

justinh:

really spooky, that

[14:06:54]

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[14:07:02]

justinh:

it's almost as if I wasn't born knowing how to edit XML, draw shiny shapes & code bits of C++

[14:07:12]

swerve:

if everyone did the same things, though, we'd never get anything different done ;-)

[14:07:30]

wagnerrp:

sure you would, by making a new theme

[14:07:31]

swerve:

people need to play to their strengths

[14:07:46]

justinh:

we'd also never have ended up with impenetrable setup menus with zillions of options

[14:07:59]

swerve:

coding stuff and making patches isn't really a strength of mine, unfortunately

[14:08:07]

swerve:

i leave that to the pros ;-)

[14:08:31]

swerve:

justinh: i hear what your'e saying, and i don't completely disagree

[14:08:42]

wagnerrp:

turning knobs isnt really a strength of most people

[14:08:43]

swerve:

when i first started using myth i was overwhelmed to say the least with all the options

[14:08:51]

justinh:

yeah the OSD timeout is done in the theme

[14:08:55]

wagnerrp:

removing the OSD duration may be a bit excessive

[14:09:06]

swerve:

but 1) you adjust to it, and 2) i hardly think removing two minor options like that makes ahuge difference

[14:09:07]

justinh:

http://mythtv.org/wiki/OSD_development_guide

[14:09:08]

wagnerrp:

but the placement is absolutely something that should be restricted to the theme

[14:09:29]

justinh:

oh wait no it's not. DUH

[14:09:36]

wagnerrp:

if your theme intended the OSD to be docked to the bottom of the screen

[14:09:42]

justinh:

maybe there were separate timeouts & they were brought together

[14:09:46]

wagnerrp:

it would look funky if you allowed the user to place it in the center

[14:10:08]

swerve:

well not really, because the size/shape changed too

[14:10:25]

justinh:

a great example is the font size settings

[14:10:27]

swerve:

like instead of all the way across the bottom, it could be a little box in the upper right hand corner

[14:10:31]

justinh:

that really screwed up a great many themes

[14:10:35]

swerve:

much less obtrusive for certain things

[14:10:41]

justinh:

swerve: so you make a theme with stuff as you say

[14:10:46]

wagnerrp:

swerve: yes, and you would alter the theme to make it do so

[14:10:51]

swerve:

i guess that's the only answer

[14:11:10]

swerve:

wagnerrp: right, but what i'm saying is that there used to be gui options for that, it was pretty nice

[14:11:16]

wagnerrp:

you dont make the themer supply settings to allow for every possible location

[14:11:23]

swerve:

like if you have a lexus, why downgrade it to a hyundai

[14:11:38]

justinh:

if there was only ever one style of box of a fixed size then yeah we could have a feature where you can move it around.. but we like choice here

[14:11:38]

swerve:

doesn't really make sense to start giving users fewer options, imo

[14:11:52]

wagnerrp:

because people who buy lexuses drive like theyre in an underpowered hyundai anyway

[14:12:01]

justinh:

swerve: in many ways, F1 cars have many less features than a lexus ;-)

[14:12:04]

swerve:

you like choice, so you remove choice? i don't get that reasoning

[14:12:17]

justinh:

because you CAN actually have too much choice

[14:12:43]

swerve:

that's an opinion, i don't necessarily agree with it

[14:12:44]

justinh:

especially seen as the amount of setup screens a short time ago numbered in the hundreds after taking all the plugins into account

[14:12:57]

justinh:

that isn't what I would call user friendly

[14:13:02]

swerve:

'too much choice?' it almost sounds like a contradiction in terms

[14:13:10]

justinh:

take xine as an example

[14:13:22]

justinh:

turn it onto master of the known universe experience level of setup menus

[14:13:25]

swerve:

xine is a good example, and i'll tell you why

[14:13:30]

swerve:

justinh: exactly

[14:13:36]

justinh:

yeah it has different levels

[14:13:43]

swerve:

maybe that would be a good function for myth

[14:13:50]

justinh:

but for it to have different levels somebody had to make them

[14:13:52]

swerve:

give the user different choices for how much control they want to have

[14:14:00]

justinh:

and somebody had to decide what's in each level

[14:14:13]

justinh:

what's too much for one man is too little for another

[14:14:24]

swerve:

beginner to expert, so they can customize their own setup without being 'dictated' to on the one hand, or overwhelmed on the other

[14:14:30]

justinh:

meh

[14:14:42]

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[14:14:42]

justinh:

nobody's being dictated to. this is open source. they can fork if they want

[14:15:43]

swerve:

it's ironic that you are maintaining your right to choose whether it's included or not, and denying the ability to choose by your own choice ;-)

[14:16:40]

swerve:

you could just as easily include it, and then say no one is forcing anyone to be confused, if they don't like all the options, they can fork or patch another one with fewer options ;-)

[14:17:28]

wagnerrp:

swerve: were trying to get mythtv to be easily usable by the vast bulk of the user base

[14:17:39]

wagnerrp:

not the minority who wants to tinker with every little bit

[14:17:52]

wagnerrp:

you fork for the minority, not the bulk

[14:17:52]

swerve:

people love personalizing things like that

[14:17:58]

justinh:

no they do not

[14:18:04]

swerve:

what confuses them are things like all the CPU++ settings, etc.

[14:18:05]

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[14:18:14]

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[14:18:17]

wagnerrp:

people personalize things because the settings are there

[14:18:17]

justinh:

not if the setting they actually want to find is buried at the end of 10 other setup pages for options they

[14:18:23]

justinh:

're not interested in :P

[14:18:26]

swerve:

sure they do, go look at any personal website, like twitter, myspace, facebook, etc.

[14:18:27]

wagnerrp:

if people are given settings, they will feel the need to use them

[14:18:46]

swerve:

justinh: so again, that is a usability and user interface issue, not a functionality issue

[14:19:22]

swerve:

you can have elegant user interface solutions that don't dumb down or remove functionality

[14:19:22]

wagnerrp:

swerve: there are an absolute TON of settings that have no good reason for existing

[14:19:23]

justinh:

and there weren't exactly people queuing up to give descriptions of better use cases

[14:19:51]

wagnerrp:

settings that were added to allow for a deficiency of some specific hardware

[14:19:56]

justinh:

loads of folks just yelling make it better. not even ONE non-dev coming up with even a vague description of how to improve things

[14:20:02]

justinh:

and it's still the same

[14:20:05]

wagnerrp:

but instead of detecting the proper setting for the user

[14:20:10]

swerve:

it would require a pretty big overhaul, imo

[14:20:12]

wagnerrp:

it was given as a choice to the user

[14:20:14]

justinh:

not even so much as a bloody flowchart

[14:20:22]

wagnerrp:

and often people choose the wrong option for their setup

[14:20:32]

hashbang:

justinh: I sketched out a revision of the sound config stuff on the users list a few weeks back

[14:20:33]

swerve:

the hierarchical/nested menu model is very confusing, imo

[14:20:41]

swerve:

for example

[14:20:42]

wagnerrp:

because it uses terms like 'advanced' or 'aggressive', and end up breaking things in the process

[14:20:44]

justinh:

hashbang: woogoo! a first!

[14:20:47]

hashbang:

justinh: how I think the UI could be improved, at least.

[14:21:09]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: what version of mythtv are you using?

[14:21:21]

hashbang:

justinh: Jean-Yves says MythTV's sound would need a massive redesign to support it, though

[14:21:24]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: 0.24-fixes

[14:21:40]

wagnerrp:

the audio setup has been rewritten in trunk

[14:21:45]

justinh:

I don't even want 0.24 really

[14:21:48]

swerve:

things like color coding different sections or some other way of cueing the user would probably help

[14:21:49]

justinh:

so I haven't ;-)

[14:21:52]

swerve:

etc.

[14:21:56]

justinh:

no colour coding sections

[14:22:14]

swerve:

because even for non-beginners, the different sections can seem to merge together and get confusing

[14:22:20]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: see end of http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/468217#468217

[14:22:25]

swerve:

especially if you haven't gone into settings recently, or a lot

[14:22:39]

justinh:

some folks are colour blind, some use stupid backgrounds that some coloured text might disappear against...

[14:23:12]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: I think the audio setup could be simplified and Do The Right Thing for the vast majority of users, but only if the audio stream is duplicated internally

[14:23:15]

swerve:

i'm just saying there are ways to differentiate

[14:24:00]

justinh:

and I'm just saying if you want it your way, you do it your way. Yourself :D

[14:24:07]

swerve:

the vast majority of people aren't color blind, and of course it's not difficult to design screens that are readable and don't disappear

[14:24:11]

justinh:

that's how this works :)

[14:24:18]

swerve:

if it weren't, the web probably wouldn't exist

[14:24:21]

swerve:

;-)

[14:24:41]

swerve:

i'm just stating my experience and the way i perceive things

[14:24:52]

justinh:

I'm a massive advocate of people cracking on & having a go at changing things to make them better by themselves

[14:25:06]

swerve:

i have a master's degree in usability and design, and i tend to see those aspects and consider how they're affecting end users

[14:25:14]

justinh:

just standing there yelling how better it could be if only.. seems to produce less in terms of hard code

[14:25:16]

hashbang:

justinh: I agree. I've done that with the mythburn.py script behind mytharchive

[14:25:32]

swerve:

didn't think i was yelling, merely discussing

[14:25:46]

hashbang:

justinh: it's much easier to tinker around the loosely-coupled bits around the edges like that, than, say, UI, or sound, or whatever...

[14:25:47]

justinh:

did I say you were yelling? I don't remember doing that

[14:26:02]

swerve:

getting defensive doesn't tend to be productive, either

[14:26:04]

wagnerrp:

'just standing there yelling how better it could be if only'

[14:26:22]

swerve:

well you said standing their yelling, i assumed you were referring to my comments ;-)

[14:26:27]

justinh:

so fine – if your expertise is in UI design why not get involved properly?

[14:26:27]

swerve:

*there

[14:27:01]

justinh:

like I said already it's not all about code. plenty of people have commented/moaned/whatever & just said make it better but never actually came up with any goods

[14:27:13]

swerve:

i'm not saying i wouldn't, i just noticed that function missing today and wanted to find out about it

[14:27:26]

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[14:27:35]

justinh:

personally I don't like how the OSD theme is bound to the UI theme

[14:27:50]

justinh:

but it's no big deal for me to hack it up a bit to do my bidding

[14:27:52]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: I've got a recording from BBC4 which demonstrates http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/5943 – is there an approved way to get it to the appropriate devs? thinking in terms of both copyright and technically... :-)

[14:27:56]

swerve:

when the bias in this case, maybe others, is against functionality, however, i'm not really sure what good it would do

[14:28:02]

jamiem:

.

[14:28:30]

swerve:

i mean, i could design a theme with my own preferences, etc. but that's not really changing the app, just theming

[14:28:34]

justinh:

swerve: ultimately it came down to ease of use/config in the current case vs a very great number of rarely used settings

[14:28:36]

swerve:

which is fine, not putting that down

[14:28:59]

justinh:

when a setting is taken away it's not necessarily gone forever

[14:29:02]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: bad time codes on the file?

[14:29:07]

swerve:

i understand, there often have to be trade offs

[14:29:16]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: I don't know exactly! :-)

[14:29:32]

swerve:

just curious, though: did anyone actually complain about *having* that function?

[14:29:38]

justinh:

I'd vote for playback profiles being kyboshed

[14:29:46]

justinh:

swerve: yeah, I think the people who ended up taking it away :P

[14:29:54]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: because I record with a pre-roll of 3 mins or so, and it's the first programme of the day, there's 3 minutes or so of 'testcard'

[14:29:59]

swerve:

like that specifically was confusing them ? just seems a bit odd and arbitrary

[14:30:07]

swerve:

lol :p

[14:30:14]

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[14:30:16]

justinh:

not that it was confusing them.. just something they didn't see as being necessary

[14:30:21]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: i think the hope was that its an ffmpeg bug, and at some point, ffmpeg would be fixed and we would pick it up automagically

[14:30:25]

swerve:

okay, fair enough

[14:30:31]

justinh:

make the themer decide one time how long something should be onscreen

[14:30:35]

swerve:

i disagree, but i guess we can agree to disagree about it

[14:30:43]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: that's what I was hoping too when I upgraded from 0.21-fixes to 0.24-fixes. :-]

[14:30:49]

swerve:

not a big deal, more of just a philosophical point really

[14:31:07]

justinh:

heh. I come from the 'no feature requests' camp

[14:31:30]

swerve:

it's just surprising also, because like you said myth has always been really good about giving the user control over just about every aspect you can think of

[14:31:53]

justinh:

there's even been some talk about removing custom recording rules. I was pretty horrified

[14:31:59]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: incidentally, if the decoder is libmpeg2, then attempting to play it causes mythfrontend to segfault. Using Default (ffmpeg) sees it play OK but with an OSD warning about 'no seektable' when you attempt to skip through it.

[14:32:07]

swerve:

it just surprised me that it would be taking away functions – i thought i just forget where the options where

[14:32:15]

swerve:

*were

[14:32:19]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: libmpeg2 should just be removed

[14:32:29]

wagnerrp:

(and i believe it is due for removal in 0.25)

[14:32:39]

justinh:

yeah well.. some things people never change.. and if those people are those with powers of commit..

[14:32:46]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: I only raise that as a 'this doesn't just impact on mytharchive' thing

[14:32:58]

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[14:34:53]

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[14:35:13]

wagnerrp:

swerve: the biggest problem with open source is that its a meritocracy

[14:35:28]

swerve:

is it?

[14:35:32]

justinh:

swerve: there's also an argument for saying an app designed to be used from your armchair with a remote control simply *can't* have too many setup options or things can get nasty ;-) we always have to come from that angle. myth will (hopefully) always be a true 10' app

[14:35:32]

swerve:

:D

[14:35:36]

wagnerrp:

the people who write the code, the people who do graphics, the people who do documentation get the most say

[14:35:45]

swerve:

justinh: that's true. i tend to use it more on my pc

[14:36:11]

wagnerrp:

UI design doesnt really produce anything tangible, and while no less important than the other areas of development

[14:36:12]

justinh:

depends on the project of course.. some OSS efforts actually let users dictate. I'm not up for debating whether that's a good thing or not

[14:36:34]

wagnerrp:

its very hard for such a person to stand out from the 'idea men' we have in spades

[14:37:01]

justinh:

wagnerrp: oh I dunno. I've yet to see even a half-thought-out sketch of anything from an 'ideas man'

[14:37:37]

wagnerrp:

so you end up with the programmers doing the UI design, who may not be and often arent the best to do so

[14:37:50]

wagnerrp:

they know exactly what the code does, and what they want access too

[14:37:54]

justinh:

mythui changed a *lot*

[14:38:09]

wagnerrp:

its hard to look through the eyes of the user

[14:38:26]

justinh:

even more will change when the backend setup stuff goes web-based

[14:38:51]

swerve:

wagnerrp: there often tends to be a tension between the developers and the UI developers

[14:38:54]

justinh:

but I bet they still call them 'video sources'.. that still grinds my gears

[14:39:07]

swerve:

just the nature of things, i guess: two different perspectives

[14:39:19]

wagnerrp:

justinh: 'channel lineups' would make more sense?

[14:39:34]

justinh:

wagnerrp: depends on what your idea of logic is ;-)

[14:39:46]

wagnerrp:

'video sources' makes sense once you understand what it is

[14:39:54]

wagnerrp:

but it is a big source of confusion among new users

[14:39:54]

swerve:

usually it's the other way around, though: the developers want to keep adding more and more features, and the UI designer and documentation people say too much! you're overloading the users! lol

[14:39:58]

justinh:

so why doesn't it have a more logical name? lol

[14:40:21]

justinh:

swerve: no, the people taking the esoteric/pointless settings out *are* developers

[14:40:38]

justinh:

if you have commit access, you are a developer

[14:40:40]

hashbang:

justinh: OTOH, re your 10' argument; how many of us are using MythTV because the proprietary appliances don't do things /just right/? (i.e. arbitrary restrictions, restrictions due to limited embedded hardware, DRM, format incompatibility etc)

[14:41:00]

justinh:

hashbang: I draw the line at a setting being on page 11 of 71

[14:41:06]

swerve:

well, let's say a person exclusively watches baseball or some other sport, and the OSD continually gets in the way of the scores

[14:41:23]

justinh:

let's say I don't care about people who watch sports

[14:41:26]

justinh:

:)

[14:41:34]

justinh:

la la la la la la la la la la

[14:41:34]

swerve:

or say a person watches a lot of foreign language things with subtitles

[14:41:46]

swerve:

and the OSD keeps blocking it

[14:41:54]

justinh:

so use an OSD which doesn't

[14:41:57]

swerve:

being able to change that isnt' really useless, it's important

[14:42:08]

justinh:

to *them* maybe

[14:42:11]

justinh:

but not to me

[14:42:18]

justinh:

and this is our problem

[14:42:20]

wagnerrp:

swerve: then they learn to hit the 'info' button to remove it faster, or give the player access to the UI so it can tell it to remove the OSD when a subtitle is on screen

[14:42:33]

wagnerrp:

or they can choose a theme with a better suited OSD

[14:42:44]

swerve:

assuming there is one

[14:42:49]

justinh:

if you had the power to change it, you'd do it & you'd be happier.. but I wouldn't be happier. at best I may not care either way

[14:43:17]

wagnerrp:

ideally, we would have a UI editor, which would make most edits very easy, and output XML would could be hand edited further

[14:43:22]

wagnerrp:

but that is a very large undertaking

[14:43:25]

justinh:

a line has to be drawn somewhere, and where the line is drawn will never please everybody

[14:43:26]

hashbang:

justinh: that's reasonable. But there can sometimes be settings which are essential to smooth integration with other parts of a home entertainment system. The UI could have basic/intermediate/advanced modes, or some settings might be via SQL update only...

[14:43:27]

swerve:

removing functionality is never an argument you're going to win with me, i just don't buy it

[14:43:43]

justinh:

fine

[14:43:53]

wagnerrp:

swerve: there is a big difference between removing functionality and removing settings

[14:44:05]

justinh:

but the intention was to make setting things up easily.. er.. easier

[14:44:17]

justinh:

not to grind the gears of people who like settings

[14:44:26]

wagnerrp:

most of the settings on the chopping block were things that were decided the user shouldnt have control over

[14:44:32]

swerve:

well, removing easy access to the functionality, if you want to split hairs

[14:44:32]

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[14:44:39]

wagnerrp:

things that the software should be designed to 'do the right thing'

[14:44:49]

wagnerrp:

and if there is a case where its not, then the code should be edited to do so

[14:44:57]

justinh:

it was ultimately easier to ditch some stuff to concentrate on getting to the goal of making it easier to use than it was to keep everything & do it in a way where everybody gains

[14:44:58]

swerve:

right, but that's when you typically start running into problems

[14:45:14]

swerve:

deciding for the user

[14:45:38]

justinh:

users were consulted. they never replied to the ML messages IIRC

[14:45:46]

swerve:

like when a program decides it wants to change all your text as you type it, when you might be typing non-standard stuff, etc.

[14:46:05]

swerve:

users should decide how they want to use something, imo

[14:46:10]

swerve:

especially when it comes to look and feel

[14:46:13]

swerve:

that's very subjective

[14:46:21]

hashbang:

justinh: I thought the way mythphone was handled was quite good; it was disabled by default, but left in for a bit even though it didn't build, in the hope someone would fix it up and rehabilitate it. No-one did, so it got pulled entirely.

[14:46:28]

justinh:

so why can't I configure my cable STB's OSD timeout?

[14:46:31]

swerve:

hard to say that an OSD display "should" be in a particular place, it's too subjective

[14:46:54]

justinh:

and why can't I configure where the OSD now/next bar comes onscreen?

[14:46:54]

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[14:47:05]

swerve:

that's different from saying that the program should do other things in a particular way that are deeper down, etc.

[14:47:27]

swerve:

i don't know, i can configure mine

[14:47:36]

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[14:47:40]

justinh:

hashbang: and there's *still* nothing to stop somebody resurrecting it :)

[14:48:05]

justinh:

swerve: what make/model/service ?

[14:48:24]

swerve:

one from time warner

[14:48:26]

hashbang:

justinh: indeed, if anyone cares enough. It's a potentially cool "sci-fi" feature but...

[14:49:01]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: to be fair, it would be a lot easier to write that plugin from scratch now, than it was to write the old one, or would be to port the old one to the new system

[14:49:09]

justinh:

swerve: I can just about change the screen aspect & output type (RGB/composite) from the cable STB menus

[14:49:34]

wagnerrp:

the player classes, UI design, audio output, its all much more modular now

[14:49:45]

wagnerrp:

and the plugin could be done /much/ better if someone so desired

[14:49:52]

swerve:

you mean the cable box?

[14:49:59]

justinh:

swerve: yeah

[14:50:19]

swerve:

mine is Scientific something – Atlanta I think

[14:50:26]

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[14:50:38]

swerve:

IIRC you can set how long the OSD stays on screen a little bit

[14:50:43]

justinh:

heck, even a SkyHD STB has a UI capable of being read by a myopic pensioner from 100 feet away

[14:50:53]

swerve:

not unlimitedly, but like 1 second, 2 secs, 5 secs, etc.

[14:51:03]

justinh:

huge text, very little info onscreen at one time.

[14:51:18]

swerve:

yeah, see that's no good ;-)

[14:51:21]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: would /could/ have had videophone a decade ago if people actually wanted it

[14:51:24]

wagnerrp:

but people dont

[14:51:31]

swerve:

but some people might want/need it

[14:51:35]

wagnerrp:

companies have made products capable of it, and no one has used it

[14:51:37]

swerve:

no reason to shut them out

[14:51:39]

justinh:

and yet, in some people's opinion a 'HD' theme is one with teeny weeny text intended to be viewed from 8 feet away on a 70" screen

[14:51:52]

wagnerrp:

swerve: the reason to shut them out is there is no one to maintain it

[14:52:09]

justinh:

you can't *force* developers to maintain code they don't want to take on

[14:52:20]

justinh:

the moment you try to, they walk. you lost a developer

[14:52:23]

swerve:

that's why you need to give people the options – everyone has a different opinion of how it should be for them

[14:52:28]

swerve:

and different equipment, etc.

[14:52:36]

wagnerrp:

swerve: thats why we go back to the meritocracy

[14:52:43]

swerve:

right, develop what you want

[14:52:52]

swerve:

i'm just presenting my own POV

[14:52:55]

wagnerrp:

no developers have any interest in using it, so no one wants to develop it

[14:53:05]

swerve:

you can condsider it or not as you want, not a big deal

[14:53:10]

wagnerrp:

users could have come out of the mailing list, and maintained it on their own

[14:53:25]

swerve:

who knew?

[14:53:26]

wagnerrp:

no one did, so no one deemed it worth salvaging

[14:53:34]

swerve:

afaik, it was there and not going anywhere

[14:54:06]

swerve:

if i had to worry about every feature going away, i'd lose my mind :p

[14:54:31]

justinh:

not going anywhere til somebody decided to improve the UI code by lightyears

[14:54:36]

swerve:

maybe you should take away the amount of time to FF and rewind, too

[14:54:38]

justinh:

and it got left way behind :)

[14:54:42]

swerve:

that must be hard to maintain ;-)

[14:54:48]

wagnerrp:

two years later, and while there is usually someone talking about 'how cool this would be' a couple times a month, no one has taken it up as a project

[14:54:57]

wagnerrp:

yeah, the UI for mythphone was garbage

[14:55:03]

swerve:

shouldn't the program tell people how far forward to FF?

[14:55:17]

wagnerrp:

it does, with commercial detection

[14:55:19]

swerve:

why should the user decide?

[14:55:25]

justinh:

swerve: maybe have it measure the user's reaction time instead :P

[14:55:43]

swerve:

:D

[14:56:08]

swerve:

why should users be able to change channels, anyway?

[14:56:19]

swerve:

they watch a lot of channels you don't watch, don't they?

[14:56:27]

justinh:

as mere users we only get to decide whether to use the program or not. I'm absolutely fine with that

[14:56:28]

swerve:

so why maintain that?

[14:56:40]

swerve:

why not just ship myth with only the capability for the channels you watch?

[14:56:43]

swerve:

:P

[14:56:47]

markk_:

I'm going to cry

[14:57:05]

justinh:

because all of us who've ever contributed to mythtv have primarily done it for ourselves.

[14:57:29]

swerve:

no, your work is really appreciated. i'm just being facetious

[14:57:36]

justinh:

we scratched our own itch, taken up our own time – and if we made anybody else happier in the process great

[14:58:00]

justinh:

I know what you're saying – but again I'm saying it's about drawing a line *somewhere*

[14:58:17]

swerve:

fair enough

[14:58:30]

swerve:

i see your point of view, and i can appreciate it

[14:58:40]

swerve:

i don't agree with it, but i can appreciate it ;-)

[14:58:43]

justinh:

if everybody was given power of veto nothing would ever get done.

[14:59:18]

swerve:

but let's just say hypothetically that I thought that feature was so important that I was willing to maintain it

[14:59:20]

justinh:

hey I can see a way you could be made happier, but I'm damned if I'm putting myself to any inconvenience satisfying you for the sake of it :P

[14:59:22]

swerve:

what would i do?

[14:59:54]

swerve:

i mean, it what way would i contribute to make it happen? wouldn't it just be stepping on all of your toes?

[15:00:14]

wagnerrp:

swerve: technically, the feature is still there, the control for it has just moved

[15:00:18]

wagnerrp:

so there is nothing to maintain

[15:00:24]

justinh:

there'd be nothing to stop you contributing a patch (for example) to configure all kinds of kooky settings in a .cfg file

[15:00:28]

wagnerrp:

you would have to make your case to the developer who removed it

[15:00:53]

swerve:

wagnerrp: well, that seems to be getting me nowhere ;-)

[15:01:05]

justinh:

there are those who argue myth shouldn't have text based config files.. and to them I say... look at all the theme xml files :P

[15:01:27]

wagnerrp:

swerve: thats because neither of us had anything to do with that decision

[15:01:38]

swerve:

oh, i see

[15:01:44]

justinh:

that we may not have disagreed with it is of no importance ;-)

[15:01:48]

swerve:

i was under the impression it was justinh's area

[15:01:52]

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[15:01:55]

justinh:

nah

[15:02:05]

justinh:

I only ever made a bunchocrappythemes

[15:02:06]

wagnerrp:

justinh did several themes, several years ago

[15:02:14]

wagnerrp:

hes been relatively inactive as of late

[15:02:21]

justinh:

there's still some of my code in 0.24 though AFAIK :)

[15:02:30]

swerve:

i guess i mean more in general – how does a non-programmer contribute to myth, GUI development, etc?

[15:02:36]

hashbang:

justinh: aww, they were quite pretty last time I looked! :-)

[15:02:45]

wagnerrp:

i do background stuff, never touch the ui

[15:03:07]

swerve:

do those developers come here? or go to the myth channel?

[15:03:16]

justinh:

and I still don't see eye to eye with iamlindoro about what's to be done with areas of the UI where it's possible to bring up *two* different menus.. bound to different buttons. that still bugs me to hell

[15:03:21]

wagnerrp:

the 'myth channel' being #mythtv?

[15:03:29]

swerve:

i guess

[15:03:34]

wagnerrp:

some here, some there, some both, some neither

[15:03:38]

swerve:

okay

[15:03:46]

hashbang:

swerve: find something that bugs you, have a go at fixing it, then post to the mythtv-users list, the dev list, or a trac ticket. :-)

[15:03:58]

swerve:

justinh: where is that? do you have an example?

[15:04:02]

hashbang:

swerve: or mail the apparent maintainer your patch

[15:04:25]

wagnerrp:

swerve: the independent 'i' and 'm' menus

[15:04:33]

justinh:

swerve: it'd be a watershed if you were – say – to come in from a non-code standpoint & actually go through & present it in enough detail as if you'd actually thought about it rather than raising a ticket in the style of "this sucks, please fix it" ;-)

[15:04:47]

hashbang:

justinh: e.g. being able to get different menus from 'menu' and 'info'?

[15:04:53]

justinh:

yeah I hate that

[15:05:01]

justinh:

I hate that there's even a need for two menus

[15:05:04]

swerve:

in 0.24 they're different now

[15:05:05]

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[15:05:16]

swerve:

i just gives some semi-useless info screen

[15:05:23]

wagnerrp:

swerve: for recordings, you are correct, we are back to one menu

[15:05:27]

swerve:

whereas 'm' gives what 'i' used to give

[15:05:28]

wagnerrp:

mythvideo still has two

[15:05:29]

justinh:

oh you mean the INFO button

[15:05:33]

justinh:

semi useless? LOL

[15:05:53]

justinh:

the full description of the recording, cast list etc...

[15:05:56]

swerve:

yeah, most of that stuff is in the description even before hitting 'i'

[15:06:03]

justinh:

as opposed to what used to come up from the INFO button

[15:06:15]

swerve:

and there's room for all of it – no need to go to a different screen for just that, imo

[15:06:35]

wagnerrp:

no, theres not

[15:06:37]

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[15:06:37]

justinh:

swerve: except some XMLTV users have very verbose descriptions & if a theme left enough room for the whole field there'd only be room for a list of 3 recordings

[15:06:46]

wagnerrp:

you can have very large cast lists

[15:06:51]

wagnerrp:

you can have very large descriptions

[15:06:58]

swerve:

oh – maybe it was just the program i checked didn't have most of that – my mistake

[15:07:03]

wagnerrp:

the largest description ive heard of was like 1700 characters

[15:07:16]

justinh:

that's still quite a few lines ;)

[15:07:19]

wagnerrp:

good luck stuffing that much text on screen at once

[15:07:19]

swerve:

yeah -that is pretty good, my mistake

[15:07:45]

justinh:

I wouldn't have cared so much but the menu the INFO key brought onscreen was only 4 items long anyway

[15:08:05]

justinh:

and again I'd have cared slightly less if my remote had more buttons ;-)

[15:08:42]

hashbang:

crikey, there's a bit of a Bristol MythTV posse...

[15:08:49]

justinh:

so there I was wanting to make myth better for me for my remote with not quite enough buttons – but I still laughed openly about the people who whine mythtv devs don't care about people with 6 button remotes. Oh, the irony

[15:09:13]

hashbang:

justinh: Logitech Harmony, dude

[15:09:23]

hashbang:

justinh: best value gadget I've ever bought

[15:09:28]

justinh:

no. not the crashy, hangy, buggy piece of crap

[15:09:41]

wagnerrp:

great gadget, poor value though

[15:09:41]

justinh:

I bought a 515. IT HANGS

[15:09:46]

hashbang:

justinh: :-(

[15:09:49]

** devinheitmueller just discovered a whole suite of EIA-608 closed caption tests done by WGBH. So exciting: http://ncamftp.wgbh.org/DTV/CEA%20test%20material/Iteration_1/ **

[15:09:51]

swerve:

what remote do you have, justinh ?

[15:09:54]

justinh:

you have to catch the volume buttons a certain way or they don't work

[15:10:00]

hashbang:

justinh: my 525 from Richer Sounds JFWs

[15:10:08]

hashbang:

justinh: discontinued now, mind. :-(

[15:10:20]

justinh:

it's not just the 515 or economy harmony models which are prone to hanging either

[15:10:25]

justinh:

it's all across the range

[15:10:28]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: my 525 started losing buttons at around 3 years

[15:10:32]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: my 525 was £29.99

[15:10:43]

wagnerrp:

justinh: ive /never/ experienced a hang on any of my harmonies

[15:10:44]

justinh:

hold a button down.. it locks up & keeps repeating the code. fix is to remove a battery

[15:11:11]

justinh:

I've said this before in here, and I think you said you'd never experienced it too. I had never experienced any problems with it either. Until I did

[15:11:17]

hashbang:

justinh: Oh, I get that with my IR keyboard, if the button up event gets lost

[15:11:28]

wagnerrp:

fair enough

[15:11:50]

justinh:

and then I thought it was an isolated thing because nobody here said they'd heard of it – so out of curiosity I googled the problem & found it's not all that uncommon at all

[15:11:54]

wagnerrp:

i have suffered lost buttons, which is nuts for the amount of money you spend on one

[15:12:19]

hashbang:

It may not be perfect, but it knocks all the cheap programmable remotes into a cocked hat

[15:12:31]

justinh:

yeah well couple that with the awful software, minimum time between button presses of 100ms and er.. I'll stick with a JP1 remote

[15:12:49]

justinh:

with proper, dedicated buttons to change device personalities

[15:13:08]

wagnerrp:

the software works great, dont know what youre talking about

[15:13:09]

justinh:

not that poncy activity stuff.

[15:13:26]

wagnerrp:

connects to the remote, updates the profile on the device

[15:13:38]

wagnerrp:

oh, are you talking about the web application to actually program the remote?

[15:13:43]

justinh:

yeah

[15:14:21]

wagnerrp:

i have no idea who came up with the idea of not having proper software

[15:14:40]

justinh:

reminds me I just got a URC-7555. way enough buttons, proper device switching keys

[15:15:07]

wagnerrp:

designed with decade-old HTML practices, and a slow server

[15:15:14]

wagnerrp:

awful awful idea

[15:15:34]

justinh:

JP1 remotes coupled with a JP1 cable & RemoteMaster.. it doesn't really get much better IMHO

[15:15:40]

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[15:15:44]

justinh:

but WAY out of the league of ordinary people

[15:16:24]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: the web programming stuff is a bit (OK, a lot) bonkers

[15:16:24]

justinh:

I'm not thick/lazy. I know how to get my TV onto the right AV input etc :-)

[15:16:57]

justinh:

the crashing of the remote really annoys me

[15:17:23]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: I guess the one thing about it is that it forces people to contribute their codes, so the Logitech IR code library can be more complete than their competitors

[15:17:48]

justinh:

embedded stuff like that – which I'd argue is pretty simple – wouldn't be something I'd bet on being crashable

[15:17:51]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: you dont have to have a web application to accomplish that

[15:18:11]

hashbang:

justinh: I fought the Activity stuff to begin with, but it works once you stop fighting it.

[15:19:02]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: sure, but if it was a standalone app, it would rely on people to take some kind of extra step to contribute their codes.

[15:19:26]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: a web app means there's no way to opt out

[15:19:27]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: the app could easily store a remote profile

[15:19:38]

wagnerrp:

on 'the cloud'

[15:20:08]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: well, that's kinda how the existing app works

[15:20:29]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: you've seen the Windows app as well as the basic web GUI, right?

[15:20:41]

wagnerrp:

no, the basic web GUI /is/ the windows app

[15:20:45]

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[15:21:03]

justinh:

hashbang: nah, my T Vdoesn't have discrete input switching codes. it's way too hit & miss. plus if I can do it faster myself I will

[15:21:11]

wagnerrp:

all the windows app does is tack on a bit of color and graphics

[15:21:22]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: well, yeah, I think all it does is frame IE...

[15:21:45]

wagnerrp:

correct, you are not configuring it locally, it is styling the remote web gui

[15:22:06]

wagnerrp:

so you have all the limitation and slowness that goes along with a remote web gui running on a remote web server

[15:22:20]

hashbang:

justinh: neither does my Panasonic just an 'AV' button whose behaviour varies according to the number of devices plugged in

[15:22:31]

wagnerrp:

and in the pre-javascript age, those limitations are severe

[15:23:00]

justinh:

hashbang: so I bet you've got to get it to jump through hoops (the remote I mean) and it takes longer than you could do it yourself

[15:23:04]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: yup, but if you wanted a local app that stored its config "in the cloud", you'd still be dependent on Logitech's site to program your remote.

[15:23:29]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: you would log in, pull the profile, and work on it locally

[15:23:44]

justinh:

anyway bottom line is I don't care what it does. IT CRASHES, so it's going in the bin

[15:23:45]

wagnerrp:

then dump it to the device, and store it back on the logitech servers, when youre done

[15:23:55]

justinh:

and I'm never buying another logitech remote again

[15:23:57]

hashbang:

justinh: not too bad; I think I had to add a delay when I switch away from my DVD player, as otherwise the DVD player would pull the TV back to its input...

[15:24:43]

justinh:

I'm not going "oh it's just the cheapest one they make, no wonder it's gone crap" – especially when people on the internets with the most expensive models are saying they've had the same problems

[15:25:47]

hashbang:

justinh: yup, I do wonder about the build quality. OTOH, some people do abuse their electronics, particularly stuff like remotes.

[15:27:04]

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[15:28:54]

justinh:

not even a mark on mine

[15:29:08]

justinh:

printing is a bit worn too – and it's not like it's had a lot of use

[15:29:16]

Gibby:

for the Mailing list archives, if I subscribe with RSS can I then reply to threads and then only get emails on those threads that I reply to?

[15:29:31]

justinh:

that's not how rss works

[15:29:53]

justinh:

unless gossamer has an rss feed for every thread

[15:30:03]

wagnerrp:

how would you mail a webpage?

[15:30:14]

justinh:

but you still have to sign up to the list to be able to send stuff to it

[15:30:26]

justinh:

aka *subscribe*

[15:31:01]

justinh:

you could always post it on mythtvtalk.com's forum. somebody might read it one day

[15:31:33]

wagnerrp:

heh

[15:32:40]

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[15:39:47]

Gibby:

yeah gossamer has an rss button, think I have to be registered to use it, if i look at the archive at the pipermail location, i can click on one and it does a mailto with the proper subject

[15:40:00]

wagnerrp:

you can register with gossamer?

[15:40:21]

wagnerrp:

gossamer doesnt manage our mailing lists

[15:40:26]

wagnerrp:

they are just an archive mirror

[15:41:14]

hashbang:

oh, I came up with a hack for MythNews, as it was hanging when it tried to refresh my 300+ RSS subscriptions

[15:41:46]

hashbang:

ended up writing a cron script to refresh every morning at 8am using wget. :-)

[15:42:12]

hashbang:

I think MythNews tries to kick off all 300+ updates simultaneously, and ends up running out of Qt slots

[15:44:38]

uW:

wow 300+ feeds!

[15:45:52]

hashbang:

uW: I just wrote a script that imported my Google Reader subscriptions. :-)

[15:47:44]

wagnerrp:

put it on the wiki

[15:48:01]

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[15:55:25]

iamlindoro:

I do so love this mailing list A/S/L thread

[15:55:52]

iamlindoro:

And have the sneaking suspicion that it's to allow someone to make the argument "most of your users aren't even in the US, so we can talk about piracy all we want."

[15:56:01]

wagnerrp:

more or less than the 'sizing up'?

[15:56:29]

iamlindoro:

sizing up?

[15:57:13]

wagnerrp:

epeni^H^H^H^H^Hdatabase age

[15:57:29]

iamlindoro:

oh, heh

[15:57:41]

iamlindoro:

At lest that one doesn't seem to have any ulterior motive to me

[15:57:44]

iamlindoro:

er least

[15:59:14]

wagnerrp:

well us and uk it seems, with a smattering of australia

[15:59:32]

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[15:59:36]

iamlindoro:

It somewhat obviously ignores the fact that most non-english Myth users won't be on the list

[15:59:59]

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[16:00:57]

wagnerrp:

17:29 against, it seems

[16:01:35]

wagnerrp:

with the bulk of those in the 29 in the EU, which has similar copyright directives to the US

[16:02:57]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: question from last night, SCAN_VIDEOs will only ever be called against the master backend?

[16:03:19]

iamlindoro:

Yeah, that's the idea

[16:03:38]

iamlindoro:

I think that further work on the protocol scan will probably slip to .26 for me, but I do still intend to make it the primary scan

[16:04:16]

wagnerrp:

ok, im probably going to make the master be the only one capable of that call for 0.25

[16:04:51]

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[16:05:10]

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[16:05:20]

wagnerrp:

the SBEs will just return an "ERROR"

[16:05:28]

wagnerrp:

and log an unhandled command

[16:06:44]

PennStateJoe74:

I know I've asked this before.... but what is the easiest way to do a fresh install of myth front/back end on ubuntu? I want 0.24 but i only see 0.23 in synaptic

[16:07:40]

swerve:

not sure how ubuntu handles it, but if you change the repo that has myth in it to unstable you will probably get 0.24

[16:07:47]

iamlindoro:

http://www.mythbuntu.org/auto-builds

[16:07:49]

swerve:

in debian, it's a separate multimedia repo

[16:07:59]

iamlindoro:

Install the mythbuntu repositories following the instructions on that page

[16:08:04]

iamlindoro:

choose .24 when prompted

[16:08:35]

swerve:

or what he said ^^^ :D

[16:08:53]

wagnerrp:

oh i so dislike the old long long handling

[16:10:24]

PennStateJoe74:

nice

[16:10:28]

PennStateJoe74:

thank you

[16:10:30]

PennStateJoe74:

DE or PPA?

[16:10:57]

wagnerrp:

ive always heard them say PPA

[16:10:59]

iamlindoro:

You'd need to ask in #ubuntu-mythtv about that, I believe that's just about the geographic location of your server

[16:11:00]

wagnerrp:

dont know what DE is

[16:11:06]

iamlindoro:

Deutschland

[16:11:20]

wagnerrp:

didnt know those were server locations

[16:11:25]

iamlindoro:

There's a UK and US as well, though various of there servers are always having issues

[16:11:37]

iamlindoro:

er their

[16:11:38]

wagnerrp:

primary package archive?

[16:11:49]

iamlindoro:

personal

[16:13:21]

PennStateJoe74:

thanks for the help folks. off to reboot

[16:13:58]

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[16:16:53]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythNewsGoogleReader

[16:18:16]

wagnerrp:

got a name? or do you prefer to be known as 'Cowbutt'?

[16:19:30]

wagnerrp:

well.. you can always change it later

[16:20:14]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: it's very ugly

[16:20:25]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: but it might give someone ideas on how to do it nicely.

[16:21:08]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: perhaps MythNews should just be a client to Google Reader a la NewsRob on Android.

[16:21:17]

** hashbang ducks **

[16:25:36]

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[16:25:40]

wagnerrp:

why are you not working...

[16:25:43]

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[16:35:56]

wagnerrp:

ah, that fixed it

[16:37:49]

wagnerrp:

hashbang: http://mythtv.pastebin.com/F20rScw3

[16:38:20]

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[16:45:44]

hashbang:

wagnerrp: cool

[16:52:21]

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[17:00:07]

wagnerrp:

Captain_Murdoch: it looks like the backend is only allowed to download one file asynchronously at a time?

[17:00:26]

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[17:00:40]

wagnerrp:

nevermind, the function returns immediately and frees the lock

[17:02:24]

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[17:04:11]

Ryushin:

I forgot how to change the OSD on the new version. Can someone let me know how it is changed now.

[17:04:19]

wagnerrp:

you change the theme

[17:05:24]

Ryushin:

Where? In setup?

[17:05:41]

wagnerrp:

in frontend setup, the theme chooser

[17:05:46]

iamlindoro:

Utilities/Setup->Setup->Theme Chooser

[17:06:50]

Ryushin:

Yea, that shows the main theme. But I don't see how to change the osd.

[17:07:00]

wagnerrp:

there is just 'the theme'

[17:07:15]

wagnerrp:

there is no main theme, or ui theme, or osd theme

[17:07:15]

iamlindoro:

ie, there's no such thing as an "OSD theme" any more

[17:07:21]

wagnerrp:

you change the theme

[17:08:25]

Ryushin:

Okay, I understand then. Bummer though. A lot of times the Theme is nice or the OSD is nice, but not usually they are both nice.

[17:08:36]

wagnerrp:

then edit them

[17:08:38]

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[17:10:06]

Ryushin:

Thats one way. Another way would be able to select a different OSD and a different Theme. Oh well. Thanks for answering my question. I appreciate it.

[17:10:54]

wagnerrp:

the two were combined so the theme author could enforce a consistency of look throughout the whole interface

[17:11:42]

wagnerrp:

and because the OSD is now a part of mythui, as opposed to an independently themeable interface

[17:13:23]

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[17:13:58]

Ryushin:

okay, I understand. Just use to having choices.

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[17:19:54]

swerve:

i thought we just had this conversation, lol

[17:19:56]

swerve:

:D

[17:20:03]

wagnerrp:

just about

[17:20:21]

swerve:

i'm detecting a pattern... :D

[17:20:41]

wagnerrp:

yeah, users dont realize its for their own good... :P

[17:21:04]

swerve:

i'm searching the config files now for how to change the OSD stuff – looks like a lot of people are going to be missing that ;-)

[17:21:57]

wagnerrp:

well hopefully with the (far far) more capable theme UI, and the theme downloader

[17:22:00]

iamlindoro:

Beirdo: can we get a !url theming to http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythUI_Theme_Development

[17:22:06]

wagnerrp:

there will be a lot more themes available in the future

[17:22:14]

Beirdo:

sure. one sec

[17:22:19]

swerve:

btw, are there more themes than come in the standard(?) package?

[17:22:36]

swerve:

answered before i asked – that's service!

[17:22:50]

wagnerrp:

swerve: no, we are removing all but the base theme in the standard package

[17:23:13]

wagnerrp:

additional themes are available through the downloader, currently only updated on request

[17:24:11]

Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +v MythLogBot

[17:24:11]

swerve:

downloader?

[17:24:11]

Beirdo:

it coredumped on me, but it's there now

[17:24:11]

Beirdo:

!url theming

[17:24:11]

MythLogBot:

theming: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythUI_Theme_Development

[17:24:11]

iamlindoro:

Beirdo: Thanks!

[17:24:11]

Beirdo:

wait for it :)

[17:24:18]

iamlindoro:

cool

[17:24:19]

Beirdo:

no problem

[17:25:48]

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[17:25:58]

wagnerrp:

swerve: yes, the theme chooser will enumerate available themes on the theme download site, and allow download and installation

[17:26:07]

** Beirdo wonders when okolosi will get back to him **

[17:26:23]

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[17:27:07]

swerve:

sounds good. this is all going to be in 25?

[17:27:15]

wagnerrp:

s/25/24/

[17:27:36]

wagnerrp:

the downloader and repository works in 0.24 right now

[17:27:49]

wagnerrp:

there is no date set for the management interface

[17:27:54]

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[17:28:13]

swerve:

where is this downloader you speak of? it's in the gui now??

[17:28:24]

swerve:

i haven't seen any downloader

[17:28:27]

wagnerrp:

yes, the theme chooser

[17:28:56]

swerve:

oh, the chooser

[17:29:28]

swerve:

that's just choosing installed themes now, right?

[17:30:34]

wagnerrp:

no, although i dont know if it will pull an available list when you first open it on 0.24

[17:31:06]

wagnerrp:

you might have to do m->refresh list

[17:31:32]

swerve:

huh, it only seems to be listing 6 or 7 themes now

[17:31:48]

swerve:

i assumed they were installed, since i installed a myththemes package from my distro

[17:32:18]

swerve:

having a repo of themes to d/l like in xine would be pretty cool, though, definitely

[17:33:26]

iamlindoro:

You need to toggle downloadable themes on

[17:33:45]

swerve:

woah – there they are!

[17:34:17]

swerve:

might be useful to list that somewhere on the screen: "press m for more themes," etc.

[17:34:33]

iamlindoro:

It's up to the themer to put help text like that

[17:35:40]

swerve:

hmm, says there's an error d/loading from master backend – it's dloading from the web, or from my server?

[17:36:24]

wagnerrp:

the frontend tells the backend to download it, and then each frontend can download from there

[17:36:35]

wagnerrp:

keeps the load on the server down

[17:37:18]

swerve:

okay, it got one

[17:37:21]

swerve:

nice!

[17:37:24]

Captain_Murdoch:

and that's not necessary in the next release. the "show/hide downloadable themes" is now "refresh downloadable themes" and there's other code to try to make it so you don't need to manually refresh. such as (re)download the list if we don't have a local copy or the local copy is over 10 minutes old. since the Theme Chooser uses the MythDownloadManager's QNetworkDiskCache, it's sending a "it not modified" to the server so

[17:37:25]

Captain_Murdoch:

it doesn't redownload if it doesn't need to.

[17:40:45]

Captain_Murdoch:

swerve, which theme did you try to install when you got that error downloading, and did that succeed the next time or did you try another theme?

[17:43:24]

uW:

Captain_Murdoch: awesome

[17:45:56]

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[17:49:32]

swerve:

i think my server was just sleeping

[17:49:52]

swerve:

it's working okay now

[17:50:19]

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[17:51:48]

wagnerrp:

the thread seems to be evening up, somewhere around 23:31, NA:oversees

[17:57:36]

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[18:01:56]

jcarlos:

I have configured mythtv-backend to use ONLY a grabber XML to get the program guide, but I see a "Use on air guide" in each channel in the "Channel Editor" of mythtv-setup. What is the usefullness of this option in my configuration ?

[18:02:41]

jcarlos:

Will it also get program guide from EIT ?

[18:03:09]

jcarlos:

In such case, what info takes preference ?

[18:06:58]

sphery:

jcarlos: if you disabled EIT on the capture card or the video source, then its being set on the channel is meaningless...

[18:08:05]

sphery:

jcarlos: basically, we allow you to disable EIT on a capture card (to work around broken hardware/drivers that lock up when used for EIT), on a video source (for when you have XML or Schedules Direct data for all the channels whose listings you want) or on a channel (for when you plan to use XML/SD for some channels and EIT for others)

[18:08:10]

jcarlos:

sphery: But is it harful to leave the check marked in each channel ?

[18:08:21]

sphery:

i.e. tons of complexity, but tons of configurability

[18:08:39]

sphery:

no, not harmful--I have EIT enabled on every single channel in my system and I've never used (and will never use) EIT

[18:08:45]

jcarlos:

harmful*

[18:08:55]

sphery:

I disabled it on the video source, so it's not being used

[18:08:55]

jcarlos:

OK

[18:09:03]

jcarlos:

sphery: Thanks ...

[18:09:10]

sphery:

just make sure you disableit on the video source if you don't disableit on every channel

[18:09:24]

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[18:09:33]

sphery:

wow, 2 identical typos in the same sentence... wish I could blame the keyboard for that

[18:09:43]

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[18:10:10]

jcarlos:

He he ...

[18:10:34]

DaPSaille:

Hi, i use two mythfrontend box with a mythbackend who had 2 tuners, can i force client 1 on tuner 1 and client 2 on tuner 2 (i've seen that i can do it manually on the client but ...) ?

[18:10:57]

jcarlos:

sphery: One more question, please. I have deleted by error a channel. Can I do a full scan again and the rest of my channels will not be updated ?

[18:11:47]

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[18:12:42]

_MOh_:

can i ask my uestion here ?

[18:13:24]

DaPSaille:

don't ask to ask, ask

[18:14:38]

_MOh_:

cool ^^

[18:14:41]

sphery:

jcarlos: not sure... any time I need to do a scan, I Delete all video sources first so that I start from a clean DB/known configuration

[18:14:51]

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[18:14:53]

jcarlos:

Shit

[18:14:54]

sphery:

i.e. I completely reconfigure all my channels if I need to reconfigure any

[18:15:11]

jcarlos:

That is a pain for me ...

[18:15:15]

sphery:

other scan on top of existing channels, but I don't know what it does

[18:15:27]

sphery:

and I think how you do it has an effect on what it does

[18:15:28]

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[18:15:29]

jcarlos:

I have to set XMLTV ID in each channel by hand

[18:15:32]

sphery:

got a backup?

[18:15:55]

sphery:

if not, for next time: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Database_Backup_and_Restore

[18:16:06]

jcarlos:

Yes ... I have a backup and I have seen the deleted channel in the channel table

[18:16:09]

sphery:

then you could just restore the backup from before you accidentally deleted the channel

[18:16:18]

sphery:

there's more to a channel than the entry in channel table

[18:16:23]

_MOh_:

i'm using OpenSUSE 11.3, I just installed MythTV from the repositorie, and when I lunch it it ask me for configure the database, so should i install a database serveur on my machine to run mythtv ?

[18:16:24]

sphery:

you really should restore the whole backup

[18:16:34]

jcarlos:

sphery: Not possible. I have done a lot of work later ... :/

[18:16:40]

sphery:

and if you have any recordings newer than the backup, you could move them to mythvideo

[18:17:01]

DaPSaille:

Moh => run did you install mythbackend ?

[18:17:03]

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[18:17:11]

sphery:

if that's the case, I recommend a) rescanning (however you want to do that) and b) before messing with your system, next time, create a backup

[18:17:17]

jcarlos:

sphery: Can I do an insert in channel table of the deleted channel ?

[18:17:19]

DaPSaille:

mythbackend will use a sql database, then your client (mythfrontend) will connect to it

[18:17:27]

sphery:

jcarlos: there's more to a channel than the entry in channel table

[18:17:47]

sphery:

for digital channels, the only supported way of getting them into mythtv is using a channel scan

[18:18:00]

jcarlos:

sphery: Yes it is a digital channel

[18:18:10]

DaPSaille:

MOd => http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/OpenSuSE_11.3

[18:18:36]

sphery:

_MOh_: chances are if you've installed the package to get MythTV, it has already installed MySQL server--and, likely, configured an initial database for you

[18:19:04]

sphery:

oh, but may need you to follow the instructions DaPSaille gave...

[18:19:13]

sphery:

glad there's someone who knows suse here

[18:19:21]

_MOh_:

DaPSaille: I realy don't know... but when I search for mythtv$ I have mythTV fronted and mythtv setup

[18:19:35]

jcarlos:

sphery: By the way, which policy is used to delete old entries in the 'program' table ?

[18:19:46]

sphery:

mythbackend does it for you

[18:19:54]

DaPSaille:

2 options => you run mythtv-setup ang may be lost, or read the wiki who will help you a lot

[18:20:07]

jcarlos:

sphery: But could I know the policy ?

[18:21:02]

sphery:

policy?

[18:21:08]

sphery:

deletes them when they're 7 days old

[18:21:12]

sphery:

(is that what you mean?)

[18:21:14]

jcarlos:

OK

[18:21:20]

jcarlos:

Yes

[18:21:23]

jcarlos:

Thanks

[18:21:26]

sphery:

ah, cool, yeah, that's how it works

[18:21:33]

sphery:

program listings are kept for 7 days

[18:21:57]

sphery:

recording history for non-recorded shows that match rules (i.e. errors, etc) are kept for 10 days...

[18:22:03]

** sphery considers making them both 10 days **

[18:22:19]

_MOh_:

thanks, I think it's the wiki i'v followed to do the install, i'll re-read and try to find the isu

[18:22:57]

DaPSaille:

MOh => mythfrontend is the client, mythbackend is the server (may be on the same computer), you need to configure mythbackend with mythtv-setup before launching mythfrontend

[18:23:25]

jcarlos:

sphery: Mmmmmmmmm ... If that is the policy I don't understand this: http://pastebin.com/WHR2yWru

[18:24:11]

jcarlos:

sphery: Sorry

[18:24:24]

jcarlos:

sphery: Don't take that in account ...

[18:24:35]

jcarlos:

sphery: I was wrong ... :-)

[18:24:43]

sphery:

you want < ?

[18:24:53]

jcarlos:

Yes

[18:24:55]

jcarlos:

Hehe

[18:24:55]

sphery:

:)

[18:25:02]

sphery:

should be far fewer that way

[18:25:31]

jcarlos:

sphery: http://pastebin.com/zx1fR7Wu

[18:25:33]

jcarlos:

:-)

[18:25:43]

_MOh_:

DaPSaille: when i lunch the setup it gives me a dialog to configure the database, then it tells me that pythtv can't connect to the database

[18:25:51]

sphery:

jcarlos: looks much better :)

[18:27:57]

jcarlos:

sphery: I see an "Import existing scan" ... Could this be useful to recover my deleted channel ?

[18:28:28]

sphery:

no, that is a not-really-working approach to attempt to import a channels.conf

[18:28:36]

sphery:

it will not provide enough information for digital channels

[18:28:42]

jcarlos:

No, no

[18:28:53]

jcarlos:

Not import channels.conf

[18:29:00]

jcarlos:

"Import existing scan"

[18:29:23]

sphery:

what you need to do--if you don't want to redo all your channels--is find someone who scans on top of existing channels and ask them how to do it with a little breakage to existing channels as possible

[18:29:28]

sphery:

that said, I wouldn't trust it

[18:29:51]

sphery:

jcarlos: do each of your channels have unique callsigns?

[18:29:59]

jcarlos:

Yes

[18:30:19]

jcarlos:

I could change those ?

[18:30:22]

sphery:

no...

[18:30:23]

jcarlos:

And do the import

[18:30:24]

jcarlos:

?

[18:30:30]

jcarlos:

Sorry ... the scan

[18:30:33]

_MOh_:

i install the backend and retry

[18:30:47]

sphery:

I'd say: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Database_Backup_an . . . nnel_scan.29

[18:31:16]

sphery:

then Delete all video sources, rescan, then http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Database_Backup_an . . . channel_scan

[18:32:32]

sphery:

the backup creates a nice, editable text file called something like mythtv_xmltvid_backup-20110127133149.sql with lines like: UPDATE channel SET xmltvid = '21647' WHERE callsign = 'WESH-DT';

[18:32:36]

jcarlos:

I only would miss my channel icons ... interesting ... it could be a solution ...

[18:32:47]

sphery:

so if all your channels have unique callsigns (which they should), it will restore xmltvids

[18:32:49]

DaPSaille:

Does anyone have an idea how to force the usage of a specific tuner on a mythfrontend client ?

[18:33:27]

darkdrgn2k:

Is there any way to protect a drive against bit-rot?

[18:33:45]

sphery:

fwiw, I have plans to significantly overhaul the channel-fixing, but it's a complex job, so it's not going to happen any time soon

[18:33:51]

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[18:35:31]

npm_ is now known as npm

[18:40:58]

_MOh_:

in the wiki i've found "The database is probably the most important component of mythTV because without it, absolutely none of mythTV can function. " so I have to install MySql

[18:48:37]

sid3windr:

obviously

[18:54:12]

jcarlos:

sphery: By the way, I have a channel with an XMLTVID longer that 64 chars ... :-(

[18:54:25]

jcarlos:

than*

[18:54:59]

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[18:58:14]

sphery:

jcarlos: what channel/xmltvid?

[18:58:38]

jcarlos:

CFactor-7Bicute-7Da-20de-20Ficci-7Bocute-7Dn-20Telecinco.laguiatv.com

[18:58:55]

sphery:

from which xmltv grabber?

[18:58:56]

jcarlos:

It is an Spanish TDT channel

[18:59:23]

jcarlos:

tv_grab_es_laguiatv

[18:59:39]

sphery:

hmmm... we could change the size of the xmltvid

[19:00:06]

jcarlos:

sphery: Well, I suppose the grabber could change also the xmltvid ... :-)

[19:00:07]

sphery:

that one being 69chars... we could go to maybe 80...

[19:00:19]

sphery:

we only use 64 because it seemed big enough

[19:00:54]

sphery:

I don't think there's any requirements set forth by the xmltv schema that limit the length of the xmltvid

[19:01:04]

jcarlos:

The chanel name is "Factoría De Ficción" ... I suppose blanks and accents are the culprit ... :-)

[19:02:23]

sphery:

[19:03:11]

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[19:03:28]

sphery:

jcarlos: out of curiosity what xml prolog does the xmltv output give... i.e. something like: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859–1"?>

[19:03:51]

jcarlos:

Yes

[19:03:57]

sphery:

not <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>

[19:04:00]

jcarlos:

Not

[19:04:04]

jcarlos:

No*

[19:04:12]

sphery:

wonder if they should be using utf8

[19:04:25]

Beirdo:

probably would be best

[19:04:27]

dekarl1:

sphery, jcarlos: which grabber is that output from?

[19:04:31]

dekarl1 is now known as dekarl

[19:04:42]

jcarlos:

sphery: http://midominio.gotdns.org/laguiatv.xmltv

[19:04:46]

Beirdo:

especially for Spanish (or so it seems)

[19:05:01]

jcarlos:

I told you before: tv_grab_es_laguiatv

[19:05:21]

sphery:

Seems with XML in UTF8, it should be using something like í if using a base character (i) followed by the combining accute accent (́)

[19:05:38]

dekarl:

jcarlos: I just joined the channel and happened to see some talk about a grabber, but not which...

[19:05:43]

sphery:

though it's much simpler with utf8 to use the precomposed character

[19:06:19]

sphery:

(but I can see them doing the base + accent to allow some clients to ignore the accent and not need to know about non-ascii chars)

[19:06:34]

sphery:

oh, and I may have the wrong accent, there, ... just saying something to that effect

[19:07:03]

sphery:

dekarl: did you see the xmltvid it's using?

[19:07:07]

sphery:

01.27 13:58:37 < jcarlos> CFactor-7Bicute-7Da-20de-20Ficci-7Bocute-7Dn-20Telecinco.laguiatv.com

[19:07:26]

sphery:

[19:07:44]

sphery:

and he said it's using encoding="iso-8859–1"

[19:07:49]

dekarl:

oh, let me take a ppek at the test configuration

[19:07:57]

sphery:

thanks

[19:08:25]

sphery:

It seems that MythTV is not properly composing that character...

[19:08:49]

sphery:

I don't know if the problem is the encoding for that grabber or MythTV/Qt, but...

[19:09:28]

dekarl:

umm, I don't see a problem in the display-name of the channels...

[19:09:48]

sphery:

so it's encoded differently there or?

[19:09:54]

dekarl:

the test configuration is for "AXN" and channels with similar simple names.. ;)

[19:10:04]

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[19:10:13]

sphery:

this is the xmltvid that seems strange to us

[19:10:58]

sphery:

dekarl: oh, and we currently have xmltvid set to allow 64-character id's... is there some better/recommended length for them?

[19:11:20]

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[19:12:59]

dekarl:

sphery: the encoding is something like urlencode + replace % with -... e.g. "13 TV" -> "13%20TV" -> "13–20TV", I just wonder what that {acute} stuff is, been seeing sometimes

[19:14:08]

sphery:

that explains why it's not composed into real chars by mythtv/qt (since it's a modification of an encoding)

[19:15:44]

sphery:

wonder why it's composing versus just ref'ing the hex value of the precomposed char, though

[19:16:18]

dekarl:

that's a good question for someone who groks perls encoding defaults ...

[19:16:28]

sphery:

heh, yeah, not me :)

[19:16:43]

sphery:

anyway, we could just change our column to 80 chars or something

[19:19:54]

wagnerrp:

hehe...

[19:20:18]

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[19:20:27]

wagnerrp:

apparently someone was planning on bombing the Red Square in Moscow, using a remote trigger through SMS

[19:20:35]

wagnerrp:

sadly, they chose to use their own personal phone

[19:20:38]

sphery:

jcarlos: if you'd like to update yours, now (and the future official update shouldn't cause problems): mysql -umythtv -p mythconverg -e "ALTER TABLE channel MODIFY xmltvid VARCHAR(80) NOT NULL DEFAULT '';"

[19:20:50]

sphery:

adjust username/db name as required

[19:20:53]

wagnerrp:

and someone sent them a text message, blowing them up prematurely

[19:21:03]

sphery:

woah..

[19:21:09]

sphery:

when having friends sucks

[19:21:51]

Beirdo:

when having AT&T "free messages" suck

[19:21:52]

Beirdo:

heh

[19:21:57]

sphery:

heh

[19:22:06]

jcarlos:

sphery: Thanks, I'll do it later ...

[19:22:11]

Beirdo:

finally a good reason for those stupid free messages

[19:22:26]

Beirdo:

prematurely taking out terrorists... now we'll never get rid of those SMS

[19:22:38]

Wicked:

So ubuntu updated lirc the other and totally broke the ir blaster for my pvr-150. So now that machine is kinda stuck in time since im afraid to update it and break it again. Any suggestions?

[19:22:42]

dekarl:

sphery: why note make it 255 (or whatever a fqdn can contain) instead of 64 (what the hostname can be) as that's what the id is base on

[19:22:57]

Wicked:

i was able to downgrade lirc to a working version....but im afraid a new update will break it for good.

[19:23:24]

sphery:

dekarl: ok, I'll get an update in that expands it

[19:23:30]

wagnerrp:

dekarl: principle

[19:23:37]

Wicked:

As it is...im already patching lirc myself and recompiling the needed modules(using the zilog patch floating around)

[19:26:33]

sphery:

heh, newegg's e-mail "Midwinter Bargains"... And here I'm thinking "winter" should have been over about 10 days ago.

[19:27:02]

Beirdo:

hehe, winter's barely started for most of US/Canada

[19:28:55]

dekarl:

sphery: I remember where the {icute} comes from.. that's what the source uses as encoding in their uris...

[19:29:08]

sphery:

ahhh

[19:29:13]

dekarl:

like this one: http://www.laguiatv.com/programacion.php?vert . . . onom{icute}a

[19:29:22]

sphery:

I see

[19:29:32]

sphery:

yeah, sounds like the best fix is to just increase the length

[19:29:35]

sphery:

I'll do that today

[19:29:40]

sphery:

it will hit users in 0.25

[19:30:14]

sphery:

but this is the first time we've gotten a mention of the field being too small since we increased its length to 64

[19:37:08]

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[19:45:48]

wagnerrp:

so this map thing seems to be taking off

[19:46:14]

wagnerrp:

i wonder if there's worth pushing it on the wiki/frontpage at this point

[19:47:29]

wagnerrp:

as well as tell people 'just the city, not the address'

[19:49:37]

wagnerrp:

kormoc: im guessing thats you up in seattle?

[19:49:58]

kormoc:

Yeah

[19:51:03]

iamlindoro:

Heh, I am kind of surprised to be the only pin in my location

[19:51:04]

iamlindoro:

o

[19:51:04]

iamlindoro:

r a

[19:51:04]

iamlindoro:

t l

[19:51:05]

iamlindoro:

eas

[19:51:05]

iamlindoro:

t

[19:51:05]

iamlindoro:

I w

[19:51:05]

iamlindoro:

as

[19:51:06]

iamlindoro:

the

[19:51:06]

iamlindoro:

la

[19:51:07]

iamlindoro:

st

[19:51:07]

iamlindoro:

tim

[19:51:08]

iamlindoro:

e

[19:51:10]

iamlindoro:

omg

[19:51:11]

wagnerrp:

a 'rob' from seattle who was in las vegas two weeks ago, figured there couldnt be many of those

[19:51:14]

iamlindoro:

sorry all

[19:51:18]

wagnerrp:

wow...

[19:51:25]

Cyd:

what is Mythtv

[19:51:32]

iamlindoro:

Anyhoo, I was surprised to have been, dunno if there are more now

[19:51:35]

** wagnerrp points at the topic **

[19:51:36]

iamlindoro:

Cyd: www.mythtv.org

[19:51:50]

Cyd:

eww

[19:51:59]

Cyd:

"Open Source software digital video recorder"

[19:51:59]

wagnerrp:

eww?

[19:52:02]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, huh... I'm confused as to what you're saying

[19:52:05]

Cyd:

I thought it was like mythbusters or something...

[19:52:06]

** kormoc eyes Cyd **

[19:52:23]

Cyd:

i typed /list and saw the channel so yah

[19:52:33]

kormoc:

I'm fairly sure I've seen your nick in these parts before

[19:52:42]

Cyd:

have you

[19:52:49]

Cyd:

maybe you've seen me in #reddit

[19:53:35]

wagnerrp:

kormoc: nope, nothing in my logs

[19:53:40]

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[19:53:42]

kormoc:

huh

[19:54:01]

** JEDIDIAH__ has lots of mythbusters on his mythtv **

[19:54:05]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, what said I was in vegas?

[19:54:17]

wagnerrp:

you reviewed some restaurant

[19:54:49]

kormoc:

Ahh

[19:55:04]

wagnerrp:

'Eve'

[19:55:05]

AndyCap:

wagnerrp: shouldn't that stay in vegas?

[19:55:17]

wagnerrp:

hey, blame kormoc for posting it on google

[19:56:18]

kormoc:

heh, yeah, hotpot

[19:56:22]

Cyd:

kormoc is stupid

[19:56:31]

** kormoc eyes Cyd **

[19:56:49]

J-e-f-f-A:

Cyd sounds like a troll...

[19:56:55]

** kormoc agrees **

[19:57:33]

Cyd:

is troll the most overused word on the internet?

[19:57:53]

kormoc:

Cyd, if you're aiming to get kickbanned just ask. And as for insults, you have to do better then that. Linus calls me a moron, stupid and ugly.

[19:58:00]

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[19:58:05]

Cyd:

torvalds

[19:58:13]

Cyd:

?

[19:58:15]

kormoc:

Yes

[19:58:23]

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[19:58:39]

Cyd:

If Linus is calling you ugly, then wow...

[19:58:52]

** kormoc thinks cyd hasn't watched Linus' git talk **

[19:58:58]

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[19:58:58]

wagnerrp:

technically, hes saying that about everyone who doesnt like git

[19:59:06]

Cyd:

where is linux

[19:59:08]

Cyd:

eer

[19:59:09]

Cyd:

linus?

[19:59:11]

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[19:59:15]

jcarlos:

sphery: http://pastebin.com/rT18pUi7

[19:59:18]

kormoc:

youtube.com

[19:59:48]

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[20:03:32]

jcarlos:

Can someone tell me wha's wrong in this: ALTER TABLE channel MODIFY xmltvid VARCHAR(80) NOT NULL DEFAULT; ?

[20:03:51]

Cyd:

too many caps

[20:04:15]

jcarlos:

default ?

[20:04:15]

wagnerrp:

guessing youve never used SQL...

[20:04:21]

sphery:

jcarlos: you're missing the ''... -> ALTER TABLE channel MODIFY xmltvid VARCHAR(80) NOT NULL DEFAULT '';

[20:04:37]

sphery:

i.e. the default value of the column is the empty string

[20:04:45]

jcarlos:

Puffff

[20:04:57]

jcarlos:

I'm silly ... :-(

[20:05:29]

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[20:06:04]

jcarlos:

wagnerrp: And yes, I have EVER user SQL ...

[20:06:16]

wagnerrp:

jcarlos: i mean Cyd

[20:06:16]

jcarlos:

use*

[20:06:34]

wagnerrp:

based off his comment of too many caps

[20:06:47]

jcarlos:

wagnerrp: Ahhh ... hehe ... I didn't see his comment ...

[20:07:29]

ThisNewGuy:

hey all – my scheduler as been pretty slow recently (using trunk) I ran mysql-slow.log and found that this query http://pastebin.com/sDFT5tyu takes ~15 seconds, but if I remove p.description from the select it only takes ~1 second – any ideas why removing an output column would speed up a query so much?

[20:09:53]

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[20:14:31]

wagnerrp:

wow... ff3 to ff4 makes such a difference trying to look at that google map

[20:16:45]

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[20:19:00]

uW:

wagnerrp: really..like what

[20:19:34]

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[20:22:49]

wagnerrp:

uW: difference in performance of the javascript engine

[20:22:50]

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[20:25:01]

uW:

wagnerrp: hopefully its faster

[20:25:04]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, you likely have longer descriptions that are stored off-page from the main row data structure and so retrieving that data requires extra page reads. Also the overhead in allocating the row buffer is increased with more dynamic data rather then a single malloc

[20:25:29]

wagnerrp:

uW: well i had to upgrade to 4.0b10 before the map was really usable

[20:25:54]

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[20:26:20]

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[20:27:14]

Cervera:

Hey there, is thaere a way to create multiple users with different access rights to mythweb? (user, admin, etc...)

[20:27:23]

wagnerrp:

nope

[20:27:55]

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[20:28:04]

ThisNewGuy:

kormoc – the description column is 16000 chars but all of my descriptions are <= 255 chars, if I change p.description to left(p.description, 1000) it reduces the query time by > 90%

[20:28:41]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, but when it's building the in memory temp table, it doesn't know that they're small so it has to allocate in many chunks rather then one single large malloc

[20:29:34]

ThisNewGuy:

Are there any data services that provide descriptions > 1000 chars? This might be a big performance win just to change the column size

[20:29:42]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, yes there are

[20:29:47]

wagnerrp:

Bus Error... thats a new one

[20:30:28]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, the 'correct' answer is to change the scheduler to use ids (chanid + starttime) and avoid the full program info for the scheduling task, but it's a bit invasive of a change

[20:30:32]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, patches welcome

[20:31:57]

ThisNewGuy:

kormoc – it looks to me like the purpose of the query is to build full RecordingInfo objects – aren't those needed (including description) in order to schedule (e.g. matching dupes)

[20:32:15]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, with how the code is now, yes, but it doesn't have to be

[20:32:40]

ThisNewGuy:

ah – I see what you mean by invasive

[20:32:53]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: I'm still having issues with new recordings being expired, the expire list looks normal at other times but I have been unable to catch it (often around 2am local) when it deletes a recording that has only recently been tc/d & flagged

[20:33:43]

wagnerrp:

larrikin: the auto-expirer should only run when it needs to free up space for something else, or when you have otherwise filled the disk to below the set minimum

[20:33:59]

wagnerrp:

not sure why it would be doing stuff at 2am

[20:34:54]

Cervera:

wagnerrp – thanks anyway :P

[20:35:02]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: yes, it IS running in order to free space, but for some reason it is deciding to delete something that it only recently recorded/transcoded instead of older valid recordings

[20:35:08]

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[20:35:28]

JEDIDIAH__:

if you are not changing the data but only the query then you only need to change the query and leave the data alone. searching the first n+1 characters could simply be a runtime option/tweak.

[20:35:32]

JEDIDIAH__:

cool find though.

[20:35:52]

wagnerrp:

Cervera: it you want to take a stab at it, independent users in mythtv is only 5 years in the making

[20:36:03]

wagnerrp:

someone tried to pull it off for a GSoC in 2006

[20:36:12]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: it is possible that something else (like guide data) is being retrieved at 2am that takes it below the threshold

[20:36:28]

wagnerrp:

not likely

[20:36:40]

wagnerrp:

youre talking about tens of MB of data at most

[20:37:55]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: well if I look into status>log I see an 'expiring program entry' at that time (2am) so it IS an autoexpire

[20:38:03]

JEDIDIAH__:

I wonder why all of your descriptions are 225 chars or less, just as mine are. Sounds like a limit being hit somewhere else in the guide data fetch process.

[20:39:10]

JEDIDIAH__:

s/225/255

[20:39:35]

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[20:40:00]

ThisNewGuy:

JEDIDIAH – I use schedulesdirect – maybe they max out at 255?

[20:41:01]

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[20:41:32]

wagnerrp:

maybe, my largest is 253

[20:42:04]

JEDIDIAH__:

...and oddly bitcentric limit

[20:42:08]

JEDIDIAH__:

I use SD too.

[20:42:38]

JEDIDIAH__:

might be the limit of their datatype or the upstream one.

[20:42:39]

kormoc:

Yes, TMS currently has nothing longer then 255 chars

[20:44:45]

ThisNewGuy:

kormoc – My eyes are rusty, but I don't see the description in the RecordingInfo used anywhere – would you accept a patch that just replaces p.description with ""

[20:45:07]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: http://pastebin.com/Xp7WCNxS

[20:46:09]

darkdrgn2k:

gawd every day i keep using the BELL PVR i miss having myth's pvr :'(

[20:46:53]

JEDIDIAH__:

why torment yourself?

[20:48:02]

larrikin:

is there a dvbt PVR which is most mythtv-like ?

[20:49:50]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: does that log fragment reveal anything ?

[20:50:06]

wagnerrp:

seems you have some orphaned recordings

[20:50:43]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: is it possible that its related ?

[20:51:03]

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[20:51:12]

wagnerrp:

perhaps your other shows are not marked for auto-expiration.

[20:51:46]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: not so, my autoexpire list looks fine

[20:52:25]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: I have a small number of recordings with auto-expire disabled and a large number enabled

[20:52:38]

iamlindoro:

Someone should tell the google maps guy that anyone can move your pins around

[20:52:50]

** iamlindoro moves kormoc to poland **

[20:53:11]

wagnerrp:

what about the guy a thousand miles off the coast of japan?

[20:53:18]

skd5aner:

where is this map, the one on ohloh?

[20:53:40]

wagnerrp:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa . . . 3d68dc55dac5

[20:53:50]

wagnerrp:

oh, looks like someone moved him

[20:54:46]

** wagnerrp feels lonely over here in fly-over territory **

[20:57:11]

sphery:

did you mention that on the thread on list?

[21:00:21]

JEDIDIAH__:

did not realize we had pranksters running amok with that map...

[21:00:55]

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[21:01:59]

JEDIDIAH__:

does this google thing have a means to prevent you from messing around with other people's pins?

[21:02:06]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, if it's actually unused, I'll just remove it, but I have to verify and unit test on that, but I'll add it to my list of things to do

[21:02:27]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, go ahead and create a trac ticket and assign it to me saying you think that field is unused in the scheduler

[21:03:39]

dekarl:

kormoc: how does the scheduler know what shows are duplicate due to same title/description for e.g. on air guide?

[21:04:06]

sphery:

kormoc: description is now varchar(8000)--which we did to make it so it could use in-memory temp tables, right?

[21:04:13]

kormoc:

sphery, aye

[21:04:15]

sphery:

how long would his descriptions have to be to go off page?

[21:04:37]

sphery:

and if that's the scheduler, we /need/ the description

[21:04:43]

kormoc:

sphery, depends on the engine and the row length. As little as 255, as much as 8192

[21:04:49]

sphery:

as it's part of dup matching and is likely used by many different custom rules

[21:05:03]

justinh:

FWIW with uk_rt there's bugger all point in using description matching

[21:05:14]

kormoc:

sphery, but we can store the ids in the temp table and join to the disk tables for matching on ones we need rather then all of them

[21:05:40]

kormoc:

I really want to split those queries into a bunch more

[21:05:52]

sphery:

so, what are the chances that ThisNewGuy is using an underpowered mysql server (on atom or something) with too little ram and is hitting page?

[21:05:57]

justinh:

kormoc: so you can turn a pogoplug into a master backend? ;-)

[21:06:19]

Beirdo:

select beer from fridge where temperature = 5 limit 1;

[21:06:23]

kormoc:

justinh, Yup yup yup! Even will do 10x realtime h264 commflagging!

[21:06:48]

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[21:07:02]

JEDIDIAH__:

when was the datatype of description changed?

[21:07:04]

kormoc:

iamlindoro, If I'm in poland i get to torrent all I want right? And talk about it in channels where it's a banned topic right? A Canadian lawyer told me I could!

[21:07:08]

kormoc:

JEDIDIAH__, 0.24 iirc

[21:07:13]

sphery:

I will say that splitting the scheduler queries up and optimizing them would be good

[21:07:26]

Beirdo:

kormoc: you poking the sleeping bear? :)

[21:07:30]

sphery:

but I won't be the one to do it--because I don't want the trouble when things break :)

[21:07:40]

kormoc:

Beirdo, He's the one who moved me into pirate land!

[21:07:47]

Beirdo:

ohh, so true

[21:07:50]

Beirdo:

hehe

[21:07:50]

kormoc:

sphery, Heh, tis why we have unit tests!

[21:07:54]

Beirdo:

arrr

[21:08:02]

kormoc:

and by we I mean me

[21:08:27]

Beirdo:

heh

[21:08:27]

sphery:

yeah, but there are so many different possible rule types and variations and conditions that something will get missed :)

[21:08:44]

kormoc:

whoops! Google Maps for the loose

[21:08:45]

dekarl:

unit test? Is that some show like that jungle camp? ^^

[21:08:51]

DaPSaille:

i use two mythfrontend box with a mythbackend who had 2 tuners, can i force client 1 on tuner 1 and client 2 on tuner 2 (i've seen that i can do it manually on the client but ...) ?

[21:08:53]

sphery:

had the unit tests been created from the start--and updated with each change, I'd be more trusting of them :)

[21:08:55]

kormoc:

I was clicking and dragging the map and it picked up and moved a marker :(

[21:09:11]

wagnerrp:

DaPSaille: no

[21:09:13]

kormoc:

sphery, heh, I'm just writing them as i go

[21:09:19]

DaPSaille:

Thanks Wagnerrp

[21:09:20]

wagnerrp:

each client will automatically use the first available tuner

[21:09:27]

wagnerrp:

or the last if you have it configured that way

[21:09:46]

wagnerrp:

recordings will always use the first available tuner

[21:11:48]

sphery:

unless you tell it not to

[21:11:52]

** dekarl wanders off to verfiy if watching in progress recording still hits a wall once you reach the spot where the recording ended when you started playing it... (on fixes-0.24) **

[21:12:00]

sphery:

or unless there's some overlap of recordings

[21:12:09]

DaPSaille:

humm .. if my client 1 use multiplex 2 on tuner 1, my client 2 stay on tuner 1 but cannot see channels from other multiplexes .. i cannot tell to client 2 to use tuner 2 ?

[21:12:17]

DaPSaille:

i can do it manually but WAF is low .... ^^

[21:12:22]

sphery:

but, basically, yeah, what wagnerrp said

[21:13:13]

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[21:13:22]

wagnerrp:

DaPSaille: you could stagger your virtual tuners to avoid that

[21:13:24]

sphery:

DaPSaille: but if it was changed so it works like you want, everyone would lose recordings

[21:13:30]

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[21:13:38]

wagnerrp:

sphery: not necessarily

[21:13:43]

sphery:

so closest you can get is doing a workaround on your individual machine, as wagnerrp said

[21:13:47]

sphery:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/369358#369358

[21:13:58]

sphery:

last solution, but you need to read the whole thing to understand what you're doing

[21:14:03]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yes, it would

[21:14:17]

DaPSaille:

ok, seems that it's time to read and learn ^^

[21:14:20]

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[21:14:21]

DaPSaille:

thanks i'll check that

[21:14:25]

sphery:

any time you let Live TV grab a physical tuner before recordings are allocation it /will/ affect future allocation of tuners

[21:14:29]

wagnerrp:

sphery: create three virtual tuners on each tuner when you create it, then go back and add one more to each, and have the frontend 'avoid conflicts'

[21:14:40]

sphery:

s/recordings are allocated to it/

[21:14:52]

sphery:

wagnerrp: I know that workaround... it's the one I came up with

[21:15:02]

sphery:

but it will eventually affect recordings

[21:15:16]

wagnerrp:

oh, i thought you were talking about how if you stagger all of them, mythbackend will choose a new tuner to access the same multiplex

[21:15:29]

sphery:

unless you really don't record much--which is why I think it belongs as a "user must decide to enable it" approach

[21:15:34]

wagnerrp:

rather than use a virtual tuner on the same physical

[21:15:40]

DaPSaille:

sphery > i don't use recordings .. too many problems regarding to the precision of my local xmltv .. tired to watch movie without the end ^^

[21:15:52]

sphery:

sure, we can make it so that it's a one-click thing to enable (with a very large warning), but it should /never/ be "fixed" for everyone

[21:16:21]

DaPSaille:

ok, thanks for the explanations, i understand that it may cause undisered effects for some people

[21:16:30]

kormoc:

%s/some/most/

[21:17:07]

DaPSaille:

hehe ok

[21:17:12]

sphery:

wagnerrp: yeah, the tuner allocation is a very complex proposition (which is why you may have your first recording of the night at 8:00pm start on encoder 3 when you don't have any input priorities, and a recording at 8:30--that's higher priority--starts on encoder 1)

[21:17:19]

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[21:17:27]

sphery:

so when you start allocating physical tuners to Live TV, you break that

[21:17:44]

dekarl:

DaPSaille: stop recording 5 minutes past end of programme works wonders over here (>95% success rate in germany)

[21:17:56]

sphery:

and that means that allocation may not be the most efficient allocation to allow maximal usage of multirec, meaning that you can lose recordings due to conflict

[21:18:11]

DaPSaille:

dekarl => in france, i(ve got too many problems .. sometimes 30 minuts is not enough :/

[21:18:59]

sphery:

anyway, I do think that having an option with a huge, red, flashing warning that says it may cause recording conflicts and lost recordings, but that configures your inputs as described would be the right "fix"

[21:19:31]

sphery:

then 99% of users can enable it, then some percentage can complain on list that they missed a recording but they shouldn't have, then I can explain that it's because they prioritized live tv over recordings

[21:19:43]

sphery:

then they can complain that mythtv is broken and should be smarter

[21:19:43]

DaPSaille:

sphery => but the big red boxe will not be clear as the explanations you give me here ..

[21:20:14]

sphery:

because, obviously, mythtv should not have to work within the bounds of physical constraints imposed by users creating systems with too-few physical tuners

[21:20:15]

DaPSaille:

so it is better to provide the link you gave me and tell me to "Break it yourself" ^^

[21:20:46]

sphery:

DaPSaille: heh... well, I will admit that reading that post is not easy

[21:20:51]

sphery:

and understanding it is worse

[21:20:57]

DaPSaille:

but it is necessary

[21:21:01]

sphery:

it could definitely be better written

[21:21:11]

DaPSaille:

and now ... my wife will learn how to press menu then change tuners ^^

[21:21:15]

sphery:

but that was a few hours more effort than it's worth to me--since I don't /ever/ use Live T

[21:21:18]

sphery:

v'

[21:21:29]

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[21:21:51]

sphery:

DaPSaille: heh, well if you don't record much, you can set it up as described and it will choose separate physical tuners for live tv, so you won't be stuck on any mux

[21:21:54]

dekarl1:

is the printed schedule equally off? (just wondering of the source of the inaccuracy lies in the grabber/data source or the lax scheduling from some stations) (I hate german subscriber lines..)

[21:21:58]

sphery:

(unless a recording starts after you start live tv)

[21:22:30]

sphery:

DaPSaille: anyway, you want the "It's possible you could get around this issue by configuring..." approach

[21:22:43]

sphery:

just read the prior description to understand where that's going

[21:22:48]

sphery:

and it has since been tested

[21:22:55]

JEDIDIAH__:

you know, if you like live tv that much you can simply make it possible to control the STB in question directly and cut mythtv out of it.

[21:23:03]

sphery:

heh, yeah

[21:23:08]

DaPSaille:

i prefer to tell to my wife to press two keys than she loose a Desperate Housewives record

[21:23:15]

sphery:

in truth, MythTV is not ideal for Live TV users

[21:23:34]

DaPSaille:

i've seen it, but the multiple tuners option is really cool

[21:23:38]

sphery:

DaPSaille: also, note that you can map a button to NEXTCARD, then it's just pressing one button when it won't let her change channel

[21:23:48]

wagnerrp:

s/MythTV/DVRs/

[21:23:50]

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[21:23:55]

DaPSaille:

sphery => ... humm .... why i didn't see it .... damned ..

[21:24:15]

JEDIDIAH__:

not all DVRs are as bad about LiveTV as myth tends to be.

[21:24:42]

sphery:

DaPSaille: it's not mapped by default... TV Playback|NEXTCARD, IIRC

[21:24:43]

dekarl1:

sphery: actually the W I have exposed to MythtTV switched to Recordings quite quickly and don't miss live tv... Maybe that's got something to do with lots of series running at the same time ^^

[21:24:53]

sphery:

DaPSaille: Utilities/Setup|Edit Keys

[21:24:55]

wagnerrp:

JEDIDIAH__: any DVR intending to do scheduled recordings is not going to do well with livetv

[21:25:00]

DaPSaille:

Ok i will try it, seems to be the right solution

[21:25:16]

wagnerrp:

DaPSaille, sphery: if he never intends to record anything, why not just turn multirec off completely?

[21:25:24]

sphery:

or that...

[21:25:26]

sphery:

makes sense, too

[21:26:11]

DaPSaille:

humm .. i hope that one day i will find a synced xmltv so i prefer to let mythtv "as stock" as possible

[21:26:26]

DaPSaille:

but it is a good approach too

[21:27:10]

JEDIDIAH__:

an engineering choice was made, there's no reason to pretend the problem is impossible.

[21:29:14]

wagnerrp:

holy crap, the edit windows in slashdot are resizeable now

[21:29:47]

DaPSaille:

"Slashdot: News for nerds, stuff that matters" ^^

[21:30:34]

JEDIDIAH__:

Slashdot: Because what engineers really love is change (no not really but it sounds good when McCoy says it)

[21:30:51]

wagnerrp:

dont remember that line

[21:31:24]

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[21:35:02]

JEDIDIAH__:

It's a paraphrase. A line from right after McCoy got off the transporter in TMP.

[21:36:21]

JEDIDIAH__:

used to have the "hello computer" bit from ST4 as my X startup sound.

[21:36:41]

wagnerrp:

JEDIDIAH__: talk into the mouse

[21:36:50]

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[21:39:33]

JEDIDIAH__:

"the analog hole" was the only way to capture that stuff in those days.

[21:40:05]

wagnerrp:

is it really called a 'hole' when the content is only available in analog anyway?

[21:41:23]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: what do I need to do to get to the bottom of the auto-expire madness ?

[21:41:42]

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[21:42:01]

wagnerrp:

larrikin: ive got no suggestions, ive honestly never used auto-expire, ive never run out of space so as to need it

[21:42:28]

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[21:42:41]

sphery:

what madness?

[21:43:00]

wagnerrp:

sphery: its expiring recent shows ahead of older ones

[21:43:07]

sphery:

how many file systems?

[21:43:13]

larrikin:

wagnerrp: hard to believe, you manually delete everything ..?

[21:43:18]

sphery:

would do exactly that if it chooses a file system with only new stuff on it

[21:43:44]

wagnerrp:

larrikin: i manually delete everything, or archive it to a RAID, before i run out of storage

[21:43:45]

larrikin:

both filesystems contain new and older recordings

[21:43:56]

wagnerrp:

lowest ive ever gotten is around 75GB free on any filesystem

[21:44:12]

sphery:

autoexpire order is based on list given by mythbackend --printexpire , but is only performed on the file system to which recording is occurring

[21:44:32]

sphery:

so it may well skip 1000 old, stupid shows until it finds the first one on the file system that's in used

[21:44:44]

sphery:

which happens to be a recording from yesterday that you really wanted to see

[21:45:04]

larrikin:

so why won't it delete older shows on the filesystem that its trying to clean up ?

[21:45:15]

sphery:

you'd have to show complete backend logs for me to guess

[21:45:31]

sphery:

also, you need to verify your expire settings

[21:46:17]

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[21:47:15]

larrikin:

can recordings be externally/manually moved between filesystems without any sideeffects ?

[21:48:04]

wagnerrp:

as long as they stay on the same host and storage group, yes

[21:48:05]

sphery:

what are your Auto-Expire method, Watched before unwatched, Priority weight settings

[21:48:15]

sphery:

same host is really the only concern

[21:48:35]

sphery:

can move to different dirs in the same storage group, or even different dirs in different SGs, too

[21:49:28]

larrikin:

method is > weighted/time prio, watched before unwatched set, priority weight is 1

[21:50:20]

sphery:

if that's the case, it's first expiring things watched--so ignores /everything/ in the expire list that's not marked as watched and starts expiring there

[21:50:53]

sphery:

then after all watched shows are gone, it will go back to the beginning of the list and get the "worst" show on the file system to expire

[21:51:02]

larrikin:

sphery: that is still per-filesystem ? cause otherwise that's not happening

[21:51:06]

sphery:

(watched/unwatched is still per-file systems)

[21:51:17]

sphery:

yeah

[21:51:43]

sphery:

so basically, do a mythbackend --printexpire, then go through that list and remove all that aren't on the recording file system

[21:51:52]

sphery:

then find the first one marked as watched

[21:51:58]

sphery:

expire that

[21:52:09]

sphery:

if none are watched, start at the beginning of the list

[21:52:49]

sphery:

"Watched before unwatched" basically says, "I'd rather delete an episode of my favorite show in the world that's been marked as watched than delete a stupid show."

[21:53:09]

sphery:

oh, and I should mention that Live TV is expired before /any/ recordings (i.e. before the watched shows are expired)

[21:53:18]

dekarl1:

sphery: Do I understand correclty, recodings can be freely moved into any dir in any SG? But only if it's on the same host?

[21:53:22]

dekarl1 is now known as dekarl

[21:53:27]

sphery:

dekarl: exactly

[21:53:38]

sphery:

and no changes to data/database required when doing so

[21:54:10]

dekarl:

and moving between hosts needs a database update (oldhost -> newhost) but that's it?

[21:54:48]

larrikin:

sounds like a script that randomises the filesystem/age combination would solve any issues with the multi filesystem problems

[21:55:44]

sphery:

we are changing the schema around such that we will know where each recording is stored--at which point we'd be able to create a SG balancing algorithm that chooses file system based on which recording should expire first

[21:55:55]

sphery:

but that will be 0.25 at the earliest--possibly after

[21:55:59]

dekarl:

I'm just wondering as I like the idea of plugging a little NAS box with a mythtv backend in as storage expansion and then run some load balancing to move recordings around. (As that's what where doing a work when we are adding/remove/maintaining file servers)

[21:56:22]

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[21:56:43]

sphery:

dekarl: you'd likely be better off using the NAS box with NFS/CIFS to mount it on the real recording backend

[21:56:51]

sphery:

especially since we don't support tunerless backends

[21:56:52]

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[21:56:53]

sphery:

(yet)

[21:57:07]

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[21:57:10]

ThisNewGuy:

kormoc: I created http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/9517 – I don't think I have permission to assign it to anyone

[21:57:17]

sphery:

i.e. just make it another directory on the real backend and put its directory path into an SG

[21:57:18]

dekarl:

sphery, there's always the Network/Dummy recorder ;)

[21:57:23]

sphery:

rue

[21:57:27]

sphery:

true, I mean

[21:57:46]

ThisNewGuy:

sphery: mysql server is a Core 2 Duo @ 3Ghz with 2 GB of ram

[21:57:52]

sphery:

and you'd want it for a backend that's providing any storage--otherwise, the storage will be unknown

[21:57:55]

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[21:57:59]

ThisNewGuy:

(same machine as my mythbackend)

[21:58:06]

sphery:

i.e. tunerless backend on a storage server will cause problems

[21:58:10]

dekarl:

i.e. you can feed your IPTV through a backend on a small NAS box and enjoy recordings on your new TV which happens to do CLNA/UPNP...

[21:58:18]

sphery:

ThisNewGuy: heh, not likely a swap thing, then

[21:58:37]

sphery:

ThisNewGuy: it's 15s, though?

[21:58:55]

sphery:

if so, that's not bad for scheduling--we have some users with multi-minute reschedules

[21:58:55]

ThisNewGuy:

yeah – that query was 13–20 seconds

[21:59:06]

larrikin:

sphery/wagnerrp: thanks for your help, I definately have pre-2011 recordings on both filesystems, but I'm getting closer

[21:59:10]

ThisNewGuy:

my full schedule was 45–70 seconds

[21:59:25]

sphery:

what do you see in backend log for lines like: 2011-01–27 16:54:57.684 scheduler: Scheduled items: Scheduled 440 items in 0.8 = 0.03 match + 0.76 place

[21:59:29]

sphery:

ThisNewGuy: ^^^

[21:59:43]

sphery:

yeah, that seems about right for a system with lots of channels and rules

[21:59:52]

** wagnerrp continues his one-man campaign on slashdot to take back gas/diesel/turbine-electric vehicles from the despair of being called a 'hybrid' **

[21:59:53]

sphery:

how many channels/rules do you have?

[22:00:00]

skd5aner:

Yay, got my hard drive and mobo back from RMA, too bad it'll be another day before the artic silver 5 arrives :P

[22:00:16]

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[22:00:28]

wagnerrp:

it's got one type of motor attached to the wheels, its not a hybrid

[22:00:39]

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[22:00:39]

ThisNewGuy:

sphery: http://pastebin.com/iGi4a0t9

[22:00:47]

wagnerrp:

its like being a hybrid is actually something good...

[22:00:50]

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[22:01:00]

sphery:

skd5aner: did you get any notification that they received your HDD? this was Samsung, right?

[22:01:01]

wagnerrp:

... well, sometimes it is... http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/

[22:01:16]

larrikin:

if its smaller than 6.2L engine, it may as well be a hybrid..

[22:01:17]

ThisNewGuy:

sphery: 490 channels, 625 rules

[22:01:18]

skd5aner:

sphery: yea, samsung

[22:01:41]

sphery:

ThisNewGuy: yeah, that's about what I'd expect for a reschedule with those channels/rules (and a total of 7K items scheduled)

[22:01:45]

skd5aner:

sphery: I believe I got an email stating the received, but nothing after that

[22:01:56]

sphery:

kormoc's optimizations will help, but in the meantime, I wouldn't be concerned

[22:03:07]

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[22:04:18]

ThisNewGuy:

sphery: I get some pretty nasty pauses when recording/scheduling/watching coincide so I'm trying to find some performance improvements

[22:05:01]

sphery:

ThisNewGuy: in short, the BUSQ is called the Big Ugly Scheduler Query for a reason--and it is a very resource-intensive query

[22:05:04]

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[22:05:16]

HackeMate:

hello

[22:05:37]

HackeMate:

i have an eyeTV usb

[22:05:54]

HackeMate:

and debian kernel 2.6.32

[22:06:02]

HackeMate:

i can see the eyetv debug un dmesg

[22:06:09]

HackeMate:

but mythtv-setup wont see the device

[22:06:13]

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[22:06:15]

HackeMate:

what can i do or wha i do wrong

[22:06:26]

sphery:

ThisNewGuy: it scales non-linearly, too... as you see, my reschedule of 440 items (on my OTA-only system) in 0.8s versus your reschedule of 7K items on your ~500 channels in 1m or so

[22:06:33]

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[22:06:41]

wagnerrp:

HackeMate: do you have any /dev/video<n> devices? or /dev/dvb/adapter<n> folders?

[22:07:25]

HackeMate:

/dev/video no, /dev/dvb/adapter0/ exists

[22:07:28]

ThisNewGuy:

sphery: true – I'm pretty happy with this 15 second improvement though – I'm gonna see if I can find anything else and offer patches

[22:07:29]

nutron:

sphery, kormoc just to confirm that my past issues

[22:07:41]

nutron:

uhh, oops

[22:07:44]

wagnerrp:

HackeMate: then you need to add a DVB tuner in mythtv-setup

[22:07:54]

sphery:

nutron: are fixed after the new db?

[22:08:00]

HackeMate:

/dev/dvb/adapter0/ only?

[22:08:11]

HackeMate:

there is some other items inside

[22:08:14]

nutron:

they were probably related to bad libraries... I couldn't tell you which ones, but the re-do fixed it all ... still find it strange, but I don't think it was a myth bug imho

[22:08:42]

sphery:

nutron: hmmm... maybe something caused it to spin for a while before giving up/continuing

[22:08:51]

nutron:

sphery: wasn't the new db either.. a complete purge and reinstall is the only thing that fixed it.. including dependencies

[22:08:58]

sphery:

I didn't see anything in your DB that looked wrong, so that makes sense

[22:09:11]

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[22:09:12]

sphery:

glad you got it fixed, though

[22:09:17]

sphery:

definitely very strange

[22:10:05]

nutron:

again, couldn't tell you what it was ... yeah 'twas... I can totally tell now too... my load would hover around 1.2 with mythcommflag running (which I thought would be normal).. and it used to clip at 30fps... it how screams at 120fps and my load is always under .5

[22:10:47]

nutron:

though there is one thing that's different now than before, but I will also find out later if that's what caused it... I've only added 4 out of the 12 drives to the storage group...

[22:11:10]

nutron:

I've been watching software interrupts.. hard interrupts and context switching numbers as I go, to get a feel if it's at all hardware.

[22:11:12]

sphery:

weird

[22:11:40]

sphery:

if you have a bad disk, it can definitely cause problems

[22:12:09]

nutron:

but... I did see in mythbackend logs that a reschedule was interrupted twice ... total seconds with almost the same recording rules hovers around 10s now.

[22:12:14]

sphery:

I had one go bad (thought it was a bad fan it was screeching so loud), and it caused serious delays

[22:13:00]

nutron:

sphery: good call, i had setup smart to monitor and email on changes, and I've never seen any bad reports via smart...

[22:13:05]

nutron:

but that's usually not enough.

[22:13:23]

sphery:

dekarl: btw, got the xmltvid length upped to 255... hope I got your name right in the thanks

[22:13:46]

sphery:

https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/commit/ffbae3f69

[22:13:48]

nutron:

can I use or in powersearches?

[22:13:56]

** nutron knows that was totally random :P **

[22:13:58]

sphery:

yeah

[22:14:06]

sphery:

you mean custom recording rules?

[22:14:10]

nutron:

right

[22:14:13]

sphery:

yeah, you can

[22:14:16]

sphery:

I have it in some

[22:14:43]

nutron:

where program.channelname = 'ncpq' or program.channelname = 'funbs'

[22:14:55]

nutron:

that kinda stuff

[22:14:56]

dekarl:

sphery: perfect, but wasn't really needed ;)

[22:14:57]

sphery:

yeah

[22:15:05]

sphery:

might also want to use parens...

[22:15:42]

sphery:

the query into which your sql is inserted is rather complex, so it may make things more reliably what you want if you use parens, even where they don't seem necessary in the fragment you write

[22:15:54]

nutron:

only if precedence is important (which I would if I had an and in there)

[22:15:55]

nutron:

aye

[22:16:00]

nutron:

I see...

[22:16:12]

sphery:

I think we have it pretty well insulated, so it shouldn't be an issue

[22:16:34]

sphery:

but I'm a big fan of parens, even when they just "repeat" default precedence

[22:16:41]

nutron:

is the max number of recordings something the scheduler ditches out early on?

[22:17:20]

nutron:

ie. if I say only keep 14 episodes and record new and expire old isn't set, it should short circuit out early if I have 14 episodes already recorded right?

[22:17:38]

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[22:18:01]

sphery:

I don't remember which point it considers those

[22:18:27]

nutron:

ok, i put in maximums in the hope that reschedules aren't intensive if all parameters are already met

[22:18:50]

nutron:

because all of my old rules (most) said any time on any channel

[22:19:00]

nutron:

then I'd just reduce the priority on crappy channels and be happy

[22:19:05]

nutron:

taking a different approach now

[22:19:43]

nutron:

so now they're channel specific (in most cases), then with episode limits in the hopes the scheduler gets a breather when there are hundreds of rules.

[22:19:47]

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[22:20:44]

dekarl:

nutron: are you changing the rules to optimize the result of the scheduler or just the running time?

[22:21:25]

nutron:

well I guess both, my reschedules would die and sometimes run for hundreds of seconds

[22:22:02]

nutron:

I hadn't realized that a reschedule is run everytime a recording started, and it was scheduling around 4200 shows for each two week period

[22:23:01]

dekarl:

ok, I so mostly optimizing the running time resulting in better stability? (just wondering as I'm after "bad guide data" topics)

[22:23:45]

nutron:

dekarl: well it was stable, it would just cut my recordings off. Usually by a minimum of two minutes. Sometimes as high as 14 minutes.

[22:24:05]

nutron:

bad guide data would be related to tribune wouldn't it?

[22:24:44]

dekarl:

if you are in the us most likely yes (I'm over in the old world)

[22:29:31]

sphery:

nutron: wow... lots of shows

[22:29:46]

sphery:

nutron: fortunately, kormoc has more plans for optimizations

[22:30:48]

sphery:

kormoc: btw, for ThisNewGuy... is there a mysql setting that can be changed to modify the size of a column (or data) that causes it to go out of page and require and on-disk temp table?

[22:37:43]

Cyd:

kormoc

[22:37:51]

Cyd:

kormoc

[22:41:33]

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[22:45:51]

kormoc:

sphery, no, but you can certainly set tmpdir = /dev/shm and 'force' temp tables to always be in memory

[22:45:54]

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[22:45:57]

** kormoc eyes Cyd **

[22:46:23]

sphery:

ah, cool

[22:46:48]

sphery:

just wondered since you mentioned that it could be anywhere from 255 chars to some 8K or whatever

[22:47:27]

sphery:

oh, and it turns out description is 16K length, not 8K, since there's only the one column in that table

[22:47:46]

kormoc:

sphery, with myisam it fills out the entire row (16k) before overflowing, with innodb, it uses 768 before overflowing, other engines do other things

[22:47:51]

kormoc:

ahh, I thought there was more then one

[22:48:25]

kormoc:

toku is a engine I haven't actually worked with much but is giving interesting performance numbers

[22:48:30]

kormoc:

and one I might run for awhile

[22:49:15]

lotia is now known as lotia-away

[22:49:53]

sphery:

so if he's using myisam, it shouldn't overflow?

[22:50:04]

sphery:

especially with 255 or fewer chars per record?

[22:50:07]

kormoc:

Aye, it shouldn't be overflowing

[22:50:19]

kormoc:

which points to just raw disk io being slow

[22:50:37]

sphery:

ahh

[22:50:58]

sphery:

wonder if ThisNewGuy has his DB on the same file system (or same drive) as a recording drive...

[22:57:30]

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[23:18:40]

kormoc:

sphery, Wow! What a ROI, guy bought a SSD and is saving 5–7W!

[23:18:54]

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[23:19:03]

Cyd:

kormoc

[23:19:11]

Cyd:

it's 6:19 in NYC right now

[23:19:13]

Cyd:

pm not am

[23:19:37]

Beirdo:

I think he knows that

[23:19:47]

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[23:19:49]

kormoc:

I think I have a groupie

[23:20:01]

Beirdo:

heh

[23:20:15]

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[23:23:46]

ThisNewGuy:

kormoc / sphery: I'm using MyISAM and yes my db is on a recording drive

[23:24:24]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, then that can explain the bad performance

[23:26:19]

ThisNewGuy:

even when the machine isn't recording?

[23:26:45]

kormoc:

How much ram do you have?

[23:26:49]

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[23:29:22]

kormoc:

And yeah, it can. If the fragmentation of the drive is high, that would negatively affect mysql performance

[23:34:15]

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[23:36:15]

ThisNewGuy:

kormic: I have 2GB – is there any way I can check the fragmentation level?

[23:36:57]

nutron:

two bugs/annoyances I've found in mythweb while restoring my rules. 1. I've already mentioned about the channel icons not showing up... ever. 2. When adding a recording rule, it actually adds it, then on page refresh, none of the selected options are checked, these are known yes?

[23:37:31]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, filefrag

[23:38:10]

kormoc:

nutron, 2 is a weird one. It counts on a signal from the BE being sent back to you, but it doesn't always arrive it seems

[23:38:16]

kormoc:

1. no idea why it doesn't work for you

[23:39:03]

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[23:40:11]

ThisNewGuy:

kormoc: thanks – what file do I want to check?

[23:40:33]

nutron:

kormoc: admittedly I haven't tried the var_dump thing yet, I was more focused on getting the rules back and being smarter about them.

[23:40:51]

kormoc:

/var/lib/mysql/mythconverg/program.myd

[23:41:32]

nutron:

The signal coming back from the BE, oh.. that's scary, I don't want to go back to lag-land =(

[23:41:37]

ThisNewGuy:

/var/lib/mysql/mythconverg/program.MYD: 1 extent found

[23:42:11]

kormoc:

that's absurdly perfect

[23:42:18]

kormoc:

how large is that file?

[23:42:35]

ThisNewGuy:

49948 -rw-rw---- 1 mysql mysql 51142752 2011-01–27 07:42 /var/lib/mysql/mythconverg/program.MYD

[23:43:29]

sphery:

kormoc: heh, yeah, 5–7W... how long will it take to recover the cost of the drive?

[23:44:18]

kormoc:

ThisNewGuy, yeah... that should be really fast to access. I'd tell mysql to use tmpdir=/dev/shm and see if that gives you much better performance or not

[23:44:46]

ThisNewGuy:

kormoc – k will try

[23:44:59]

ThisNewGuy:

kormoc – thanks so much for your help

[23:45:00]

kormoc:

sphery, what was the average kwh rate? $0.12 ?

[23:45:07]

** kormoc tips his hat **

[23:45:22]

sphery:

heh, that's US average, so...

[23:46:41]

nutron:

uh i pay between 5 and 6 cents a kwh

[23:46:55]

kormoc:

at $0.12 per kwh and 7 watts saved for 24 hours a day he's saving $7.34 a year

[23:47:25]

wagnerrp:

nutron: is that your final cost? or is that just the cost of power?

[23:47:53]

wagnerrp:

we pay $0.07/kWh for power, and another $0.05/kWh for transmission

[23:48:58]

nutron:

ahh not final cost, but transmission is a flat rate... I think it's $10 a month

[23:49:14]

nutron:

hmm, now I see why we sell power to the us

[23:49:42]

sphery:

kormoc: heh, sorry... just hung you out to dry on -users list

[23:50:40]

kormoc:

Meh

[23:50:52]

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[23:51:13]

sphery:

I mentioned http://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/5262 when users on the statistics thread were talking about percent being weird

[23:53:59]

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[23:55:14]

wagnerrp:

theres another one, middle of the pacific, 750 miles off the coast of mexico

[23:55:36]

iamlindoro:

I think people are accidentally click-dragging pins

[23:55:40]

iamlindoro:

since you can move anyone's

[23:56:02]

nutron:

murrrhdhurrr

[23:56:08]

kormoc:

Yeah, I accidentally did that myself

[23:56:21]

kormoc:

and you have a few seconds to undo it, if you can find the undo link

[23:56:50]

iamlindoro:

Could just click drag every pin to the middle of Antarctica to prove a point

[23:57:08]

nutron:

hah

[23:57:28]

kormoc:

sphery, I can't wait for the guy to tell me that I'm wrong!

[23:57:33]

nutron:

good if you wanted to do a study on neutrinos

[23:57:46]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, he could be on a boat

[23:58:01]

kormoc:

MythYacht

[23:58:22]

iamlindoro:

I'M ON A BOAT

[23:58:39]

iamlindoro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7yfISlGLNU

[23:58:40]

nutron:

lol, don't you go for a jog every day?

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