Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Wednesday, October 20th, 2010, 00:05 UTC

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[01:57:34]

clever:

how would i go about tracking down some screen tearing issues with video?

[01:58:18]

clever:

ive been able to reproduce it with mythtv, mplayer, and http://ext.earthtools.ca/testxv.c

[01:59:15]

sphery:

clever: which video card/drivers?

[01:59:34]

clever:

ati, radeon, with kernel mode switching

[01:59:58]

wagnerrp:

better to use fglrx and opengl

[02:00:07]

wagnerrp:

then opengl takes care of your tearing issues

[02:00:13]

clever:

i dont beleive fglrx works on this card

[02:00:23]

clever:

01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc Radeon RV250 [Mobility FireGL 9000] (rev 02)

[02:01:24]

sphery:

I've never been able to configure modern ATI/AMD cards such that tearing doesn't occur since they switched to textured Xv

[02:02:02]

clever:

if i remember correctly, this card cant to texture Xv

[02:02:16]

clever:

compiz+xv lead to nasty artifacts whenever it blended the chroma-key

[02:02:33]

sphery:

which card?

[02:02:40]

clever:

Radeon RV250 [Mobility FireGL 9000]

[02:03:07]

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[02:03:30]

wagnerrp:

would an r9000 even have enough power for the opengl painter?

[02:03:48]

sphery:

http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature

[02:03:53]

sphery:

wagnerrp: pretty sure it wouldn't

[02:04:08]

clever:

thats one of the other things i was wondering

[02:04:45]

clever:

dont even see RV250 on the chart, i'm guessing its a mix between 200 and 300?

[02:04:57]

wagnerrp:

its an r9000

[02:05:00]

sphery:

it's R200 series

[02:05:09]

wagnerrp:

the lowest thing they made in the 9000 series

[02:05:11]

sphery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon#Radeon_Processor_Generations

[02:05:28]

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[02:05:30]

sphery:

DX8.1/GL1.4

[02:05:32]

wagnerrp:

but its a firegl... which with that low performance doesnt mean anything since youre not going to be doing CAD on it

[02:07:01]

sphery:

oh, you said painter... gl painter might work

[02:07:10]

sphery:

but gl renderer won't, I'd think

[02:07:25]

wagnerrp:

renderer i mean... considering were talking video playback

[02:07:33]

clever:

the painters all update slow enough that id never see the tearing, its only high framerate stuff like video that matters

[02:07:47]

sphery:

heh, yeah, I read it as renderer because of that, but then I got confused when I saw it again

[02:08:12]

sphery:

yeah, pretty sure you're not going to get OpenGL renderer to work with that

[02:08:20]

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[02:08:55]

wagnerrp:

a bit of a off topic but amusing literature, found from a slashdot article... http://www.abyssandapex.com/200710-wikihistory.html

[02:09:42]

sphery:

it's about equivalent to the NVIDIA GF5x00 series, right?

[02:10:17]

wagnerrp:

maybe a 5200 or 420MX

[02:11:01]

clever:

hmm, the select button wont trigger edit/delete in the playback profiles

[02:11:08]

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[02:11:23]

sphery:

clever: screen updates don't work in that page

[02:11:42]

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[02:11:44]

clever:

sphery: its broken?

[02:11:46]

sphery:

delete works, but you don't see it... you have to Next/Next/Next/.../Finish then go back

[02:11:52]

clever:

ah

[02:11:57]

sphery:

yep, and has been since Qt 4 port

[02:12:10]

keith4__:

is there a way to make keyboard shortcuts that execute arbitrary scripts?

[02:12:15]

clever:

hit back, next, and edit, no change

[02:12:18]

sphery:

once you've done something like Delete, Edit won't work (because what you think you're seeing , you're not

[02:12:22]

sphery:

so edit first

[02:12:23]

sphery:

then delete

[02:12:31]

sphery:

back doesn't work

[02:12:35]

sphery:

10.19 22:11:45 <+sphery> delete works, but you don't see it... you have to Next/Next/Next/.../Finish then go back

[02:12:38]

clever:

ok, escape!

[02:12:45]

sphery:

note the "Next/Next/Next/.../Finish"

[02:12:49]

clever:

yeah, that worked

[02:12:55]

sphery:

i.e. you have to /start/ the whole playback settings over

[02:12:57]

clever:

backed out right to the menu

[02:14:24]

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[02:14:49]

clever:

yep, current drivers cant opengl render

[02:14:57]

clever:

skipping and 92% cpu usage

[02:16:37]

clever:

its still a major upgrade from the old FE, h.264 capable and alot less lag in the UI

[02:17:49]

clever:

i assume there is no way to ask GL for vsync info and then xv at the right time?

[02:20:56]

sphery:

http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/26314 + http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/26400 + http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/451857#451857

[02:21:34]

clever:

that only leaves one problem, the laptop is outputing widescreen video, and mythtv is playing SD so i get black bars on the left/right

[02:21:51]

clever:

but strangely, the video keeps going full-screen on its own without me touching any buttons

[02:22:26]

sphery:

looks like radeon has XV_VSYNC instead of XV_SYNC_TO_VBLANK

[02:22:34]

sphery:

xvinfo

[02:22:38]

sphery:

seems to default to 1

[02:22:42]

sphery:

(enabled)

[02:22:44]

clever:

ah, forgot to check xvinfo

[02:23:13]

clever:

i'll play with its options after this episode of tv and see if i can fix the testxv.c app

[02:23:23]

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[02:23:36]

clever:

sphery: any thoughts on the widescreen/SD thing?

[02:23:53]

sphery:

if you have your X configured for proper physical aspect ratio, MythTV will get it right

[02:24:10]

sphery:

maybe it's possible you may have enabled the auto-zoom thing

[02:24:10]

clever:

yeah, it is getting it right most of the time, black bars on the left/right

[02:24:17]

clever:

but mid-way thru a video, it goes fullscreen

[02:24:26]

sphery:

sounds like the auto-zoom

[02:24:34]

clever:

yeah, auto-zoom sounds like it would cause that

[02:24:39]

sphery:

or possibly a display aspect ratio change

[02:24:46]

sphery:

i.e. the video actually changes aspect

[02:25:05]

clever:

the rating logo in the corner is cut off a little bit, as is the channel logo in the other corner

[02:25:18]

clever:

but i think the video itself is widescreen and un-effected

[02:25:39]

clever:

the mouse pointer is hidden still, so i cant check the real edges

[02:31:55]

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[02:36:04]

clever:

sphery: ah, so it was using gl to sync but its broken now?

[02:36:49]

wagnerrp:

you said it was too slow to do gl rendering

[02:37:07]

clever:

wagnerrp: i mean use gl to detect when the sync is, and then xv render the frame at that time

[02:38:11]

clever:

though now that i think more, i think xv has its own sync stuff, i'll have to look at it all and see what does/doesnt work

[02:39:23]

clever:

"XV_VSYNC" == 1 (in xvinfo)

[02:44:24]

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[02:48:17]

sphery:

clever: exactly, we used to support using OpenGL to create a window that we used only to determine when sync would happen, but due to changes to the player and rendering, that hack doesn't work like it did before and causes more problems than it solves

[02:48:27]

sphery:

since Xv should be doing vsync for you

[02:48:34]

sphery:

(and OpenGL and VDPAU and ...)

[02:48:54]

sphery:

but if your drivers aren't there yet--ref, radeon drivers--you'll still see tearing

[02:49:19]

clever:

that might explain the fps i was getting, from reading the testxv.c code i would assume it would max out the fps

[02:49:22]

sphery:

really, though, we only used the OpenGL vsync before to determine when to deliver frames, not to prevent tearing

[02:49:27]

clever:

but i was getting a constant ~60fps

[02:49:37]

clever:

and xrandr -q says the refresh rate is 60hz

[02:49:44]

sphery:

since all the supported apis should prevent tearing on their own

[02:50:33]

clever:

from the effects i'm seeing XvShmPutImage() seems to always take 1/60th of a second when called in a infinite loop

[02:50:38]

clever:

like its already waiting on the sync

[02:52:08]

sphery:

yeah, it's supposed to take care of it for you

[02:52:21]

clever:

so its trying to do its job, and failing

[02:52:33]

clever:

i'll go bug the #radeon guys :P

[02:52:52]

sphery:

heh, sounds like it

[02:53:15]

clever:

the only odd thing, is that the teating is on single line

[02:53:33]

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[02:53:40]

clever:

its not a random point where the video card hapened to catch up to the host cpu

[02:53:47]

sphery:

like I said, I've never succeeded with tear-free high-res video on radeon. I just assumed it was incomplete support

[02:54:14]

clever:

my only guess, is that its half-working, and that the vsync code is keeping the tear in the same place

[02:54:33]

clever:

and the GPU/host are running into eachother in the same spot every frame, because of the sync

[03:03:30]

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[03:26:15]

Lexridge:

I finally updated from Fedora 8 to Fedora 13 after my HDD went caput, with new hardware. Athlon quad core, 4GB RAM, and Nvidia 9600 SVO with 768MB. Video is awesome, audio...well strange.

[03:26:52]

Lexridge:

this system is my first experience with PulseAudio...YECK!!!

[03:27:35]

Lexridge:

I see the point of pulseaudio, and actually like the theory, but in practice, it just does't work as expected.

[03:28:22]

Lexridge:

multi-channel audio with "exotic" sounds cards is hard!!

[03:28:52]

wagnerrp:

there are some pretty serious flaws

[03:29:01]

wagnerrp:

its supposed to be a drop-in replacement for alsa

[03:29:13]

wagnerrp:

but its missing a big chunk of the ALSA API

[03:29:22]

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[03:29:46]

wagnerrp:

even its normal operation doesnt handle audio latency well

[03:29:49]

Lexridge:

I am attempting to use ALSA with Pulse, via the alsa-pulse pluging

[03:29:56]

Lexridge:

plug-in

[03:30:54]

Lexridge:

the weird thing, MythFrontend seems to access the sound card directly, and totally ignores pulse...in my case.

[03:30:55]

wagnerrp:

beyond that, you cant do passthrough digital

[03:31:02]

wagnerrp:

its simply impossible on a system like that

[03:31:34]

wagnerrp:

besides the fact that they refuse to add any sort of support for it

[03:31:44]

wagnerrp:

passthrough requires dedicated access

[03:31:49]

Lexridge:

I have a Delta 1010 card. It worked perfectly under F8 with only ALSA...no pulse. I hate this.

[03:31:51]

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[03:31:56]

wagnerrp:

which you cant do when youre multiplexing in multiple sources

[03:32:44]

Lexridge:

I am not doing any SPDIF passthrough. I have the Delta care connected channel for channel to a 6 channel amp.

[03:32:52]

Lexridge:

care=card

[03:33:09]

wagnerrp:

well you still get to suffer through all the latency issues

[03:33:10]

sphery:

isn't pulse just 2-channel

[03:33:13]

sphery:

even analog

[03:33:29]

Lexridge:

no, Pulse should recognize multichannel too

[03:33:30]

wagnerrp:

i thought it did multi-channel

[03:33:40]

wagnerrp:

if it doesnt, its completely worthless for multimedia

[03:35:03]

sphery:

OK, pretty sure if nothing else MythTV's Pulse support is 2-channel only

[03:35:14]

Lexridge:

Well, it should,,,,and it does, the mixer actually changes to a 5.1 meter, but only stereo is displayed. No other channels are getting to pulse....but pulse seems to know they SHOULD be there

[03:36:07]

Lexridge:

all 6 ch of audio are displayed, but only the front left and right show any levels.

[03:36:18]

Lexridge:

like it's being down-mixed

[03:37:04]

Lexridge:

I am still learning about pulse, I will figure it out eventually, just wanted to get some 3rd party input.

[03:37:21]

Lexridge:

just to make my gears turn...you know what I mean

[03:37:42]

sphery:

almost as if MythTV only supports 2-channel audio using Pulse

[03:37:48]

wagnerrp:

the 3rd party input is that its unnecessary for nearly all users, and bad for multimedia

[03:38:08]

Lexridge:

no, mythtv DOES play in 5.1....but it bypasses PULSE on it's own to do so!!!

[03:38:27]

wagnerrp:

are you using 0.23?

[03:38:31]

sphery:

right, MythTV's PULSE support is 2-channel only

[03:38:37]

sphery:

MythTV's ALSA support allows multichannel

[03:38:39]

Lexridge:

If pulse has exclusive connect to the hardware, how the hell is mythfrontend getting around that?

[03:38:42]

wagnerrp:

sphery: in trunk it is?

[03:38:48]

sphery:

pretty sure it is

[03:38:52]

Lexridge:

yes. 0.23

[03:38:58]

wagnerrp:

Lexridge: because mythtv shuts down pulse

[03:39:08]

Lexridge:

oh!

[03:39:10]

wagnerrp:

it suspends it, so /it/ can have access to the hardware

[03:39:35]

Lexridge:

okay, so I should need to worry about that then. IT's working the way its suppose to work

[03:39:48]

Lexridge:

not need to worry I mean

[03:39:51]

wagnerrp:

if you must use pulse, upgrade to 0.24

[03:40:01]

wagnerrp:

otherwise, ignore pulse and go on with your life

[03:40:59]

Lexridge:

I'm fine with myth taking charge of it. That is the mainly what this machine is for anyway for the moment. I like pulse, but I think it's still an infant.

[03:42:13]

Lexridge:

So I will stop worrying about mythfrontend taking charge. Now I know why. I guess I need to now visit the VLC channel and find out how to make it work with pulse in 5.1. Stereo only so far :(

[03:42:46]

wagnerrp:

mythtv should play just about anything VLC does

[03:42:53]

wagnerrp:

and anything it doesnt, submit a ticket

[03:43:39]

Lexridge:

and it does. Sometimes VLC is nice and quick. Sometimes the mythfrontend menu for me takes forever to load. This still after two different computer.

[03:44:00]

wagnerrp:

only if you close it

[03:44:09]

wagnerrp:

that means this is a desktop machine? not a dedicated frontend?

[03:45:10]

Beirdo:

knightr: yup. a nice sleeping bag :)

[03:45:19]

Lexridge:

yea, with two monitors... a 19" WS for general usage, and a 24" WS for MythTV...or VLC...etc

[03:45:33]

knightr:

Beirdo, the one you had posted pictures of?

[03:45:41]

Lexridge:

two seperate X-Sessions

[03:46:06]

Beirdo:

yup

[03:46:48]

knightr:

where are you going camping?

[03:47:19]

Beirdo:

south end of WA. should be fun.

[03:48:22]

Lexridge:

still getting used to gnome. I like it, but I am a kde person. KDE4 does NOT support multiple X-Sessions. SAD!

[03:48:39]

knightr:

When?

[03:48:59]

Beirdo:

not soon enough... this weekend

[03:49:37]

knightr:

Eh, if you haven't packed yet maybe it's too soon... :)

[03:50:44]

Beirdo:

never too soon :)

[03:51:14]

knightr:

you are using a tent I guess?

[03:51:35]

Beirdo:

pretty much :)

[03:52:26]

Lexridge:

okay, stupid question....If you are watching something on myth, and from a shell, run "speaker-test -c2". Do you hear white noise, or can it not access the soundcard?

[03:53:40]

Lexridge:

I get the white "pink actually" even when playing mythfrontend in 5.1

[03:54:00]

Lexridge:

which makes no sense!!!!

[03:54:01]

knightr:

Going fishing, hiking?

[03:54:26]

Beirdo:

nope, hanging out in the bush with friends, drinking and playing with sharp objects

[03:54:29]

Beirdo:

heh

[03:54:46]

Lexridge:

if mythfrontend took control, how can speaker-test even access the hardware?

[03:54:59]

wagnerrp:

mythfrontend hasnt taken control

[03:55:17]

wagnerrp:

mythfrontend has disabled pulse, allowing all the alsa-fearing applications to function as normal

[03:55:28]

knightr:

ROTFL...

[03:55:31]

Lexridge:

ohhhh, okay!! I get it finally...lol...sorry

[03:55:43]

Lexridge:

damn BEER!!!

[03:56:14]

Beirdo:

oh, sharp objects, and fire.

[03:56:16]

Beirdo:

:)

[03:56:46]

Lexridge:

should I not get a message in the system log file about that? I would think there should be a nasty error when pulse is disabled.

[03:57:05]

Beirdo:

why would there be a nasty error?

[03:57:11]

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[03:57:33]

knightr:

So if I hear somebody started some sort of bush fire there I'll know who is responsible... :)

[03:57:48]

Lexridge:

a system daemon has been disabled.....right? that should make a message

[03:58:20]

Beirdo:

heh, nah, not to worry. It's more a viking-themed camping trip than a "be a total idiot" thing

[03:58:28]

[R]:

Lexridge: why would it?

[03:58:31]

wagnerrp:

knightr: better not, well lose all our prime forest for movies and tv shows

[03:58:46]

[R]:

Lexridge: its not like your computer is going to explode without it

[03:58:59]

[R]:

Lexridge: besides... most dists dont run it as a system daemon

[03:59:18]

knightr:

wagnerrp, tell that to Beirdo... :)

[03:59:23]

Lexridge:

well, simply for informational services, I would assume...perhaps not. Audio is not important.

[04:00:03]

Beirdo:

pulseaudio is not a crucial part of Linux

[04:00:42]

[R]:

its not controlling the launch codes

[04:00:44]

[R]:

thats for sure

[04:01:03]

Lexridge:

I agree, I lived without it until now. Now, without it, Fedora has built it so into the structure, I cannot even run KONSOLE without it being installed.

[04:01:17]

wagnerrp:

madness

[04:01:24]

Lexridge:

they have FORCED me to use it

[04:01:54]

wagnerrp:

why would a console application have high quality sound?

[04:02:06]

Lexridge:

damn good question!!!!!!

[04:02:07]

Beirdo:

so don't use konsole

[04:02:13]

wagnerrp:

why would it just use the system speaker

[04:02:46]

Lexridge:

you guys obviously dont use Fedora.

[04:02:57]

Lexridge:

or you would know what I am talking about

[04:02:58]

Beirdo:

I use ubuntu

[04:03:03]

Beirdo:

and I don't use pulseaudio

[04:03:11]

Beirdo:

and I will not use konsole

[04:03:25]

wagnerrp:

of course you dont use konsole, you run ubuntu

[04:03:32]

Beirdo:

there's this nice program called xterm

[04:03:38]

Lexridge:

The first thing I did after installing F13 was remove pulse audio....then I discovered how apps no longer ran.

[04:03:42]

Beirdo:

then there's rxvt

[04:03:45]

wagnerrp:

or, gnome-terminal...

[04:03:50]

wagnerrp:

... since youre running... gnome....

[04:03:55]

Beirdo:

no I'm not

[04:04:02]

Lexridge:

I am using gnome-terminal now.

[04:04:05]

Beirdo:

I'm running ratpoison :)

[04:04:07]

[R]:

Lexridge: you must have uninstalled it horribly wrong and forced it

[04:04:12]

[R]:

Lexridge: cuz i've removed pulse in fedora just fine

[04:04:18]

Lexridge:

I did force it

[04:05:01]

Lexridge:

and I have removed it just fine in F-dists earlier than 11....but it seemed impossible under 13

[04:05:03]

[R]:

and you wonered why it broke everyhitng

[04:05:46]

Lexridge:

well, I have since put it back in to fix the problems

[04:06:04]

Lexridge:

and some major modes to asound.conf

[04:06:06]

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[04:06:46]

sphery:

ratpoison--good choice

[04:07:20]

sphery:

I'm thinking of switching my frontends

[04:08:08]

sphery:

have been using fluxbox--just because I use it on all my other systems--but it now supports ewmh, so it does some annoying things, assuming I want desktop-like usage :)

[04:08:58]

Beirdo:

fruxbox?

[04:09:00]

Beirdo:

hehe

[04:09:46]

Lexridge:

Just got a Droid phone, would be great if there were a mythfrontend available for it!! The remote control interfaces are pretty nice.

[04:10:22]

sphery:

would be great if the droid phone ran a *nix like OS

[04:10:53]

Lexridge:

ummm, it does lol

[04:11:03]

sphery:

versus a Linux kernel and a Google abomination of a filesystem/layout/partial selection of some *nix-like tools

[04:11:31]

[R]:

Lexridge: well get crackin'

[04:11:36]

Lexridge:

well, true, it's still linux kernel.....but the libs have changed.

[04:11:55]

sphery:

and what's with the /system

[04:12:09]

Lexridge:

but compiling a kernel for a rooted device is very linux like

[04:12:34]

sphery:

replace the OS with GNU/Linux, and I'll be interested

[04:13:00]

Lexridge:

sure, I understand you.

[04:13:00]

sphery:

Oh, wait, Google already killed that dream... Openmoko is dead. Long live Openmoko.

[04:13:07]

[R]:

8 DVDs at a time for $48

[04:13:13]

[R]:

ffs... who needs 8 dvds at a time

[04:13:19]

Lexridge:

OpenMoko was KILLER!! Shame it never took off

[04:13:35]

sphery:

[R]: especially when they don't have limits on streaming, do they?

[04:13:43]

[R]:

sphery: no

[04:13:53]

[R]:

sphery: an $8/$9 plan has unlimited streaming

[04:14:17]

sphery:

Lexridge: yeah, I have my Freerunner, and just wish I could have newer hardware for it

[04:14:43]

sphery:

best I'm likely to get, now, is a firmware-replaced HTC or something

[04:15:00]

sphery:

with all the fun of unsupported devices, unavailable drivers, firwmare, etc.

[04:15:05]

Lexridge:

nice! Its amazing how fast the cellphone hardware is advancing. The Droid X has an HDMI output on it!!

[04:15:38]

wagnerrp:

Lexridge: what whatever good a high resolution display output on a phone is going to do

[04:15:47]

Lexridge:

wish I had one, but this one, a Milestone is quite cool anyway,

[04:15:51]

wagnerrp:

seriously... who is going to hook up their cell phone to a tv

[04:16:10]

Lexridge:

Well, it will play back at 720P, so why not?

[04:16:38]

Lexridge:

I would probably never use it, but its cool to be able to lol

[04:16:42]

wagnerrp:

because it will only play 720p

[04:16:58]

wagnerrp:

and likely not the 720p that you might record

[04:17:41]

Lexridge:

720P is far better then 480i. Sure 1080P is the ultimate, but it all looks better than SD

[04:18:13]

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[04:18:15]

wagnerrp:

im just wondering... stargate, theyve got those holographic generators

[04:18:27]

wagnerrp:

why cant they strap one of those things on anyone coming through on the stones

[04:18:30]

Lexridge:

SD holograms

[04:18:43]

wagnerrp:

so they look like theyre supposed to, and not the body theyre controlling

[04:19:02]

Lexridge:

lol

[04:19:25]

[R]:

lol

[04:19:35]

[R]:

wagnerrp: which holographic generator are you talking about?

[04:19:48]

wagnerrp:

the ones from the original series

[04:20:02]

Lexridge:

I watched the worst movie EVER last night. It was called Big Tits Zombie. and was basically a movie about strippers vs zombies. Damn!! lol

[04:20:02]

wagnerrp:

little thing, you stick it on your chest, makes you look like someone else

[04:20:32]

Lexridge:

no, it was not a porno

[04:20:35]

Lexridge:

lmao

[04:20:38]

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[04:20:58]

[R]:

wagnerrp: because they coudln't program them

[04:21:34]

kormoc:

Lexridge, you mean Zombie Strippers?

[04:22:01]

Lexridge:

no, strippers were human, killing zombies...lol...japanese movie.

[04:22:17]

wagnerrp:

sure they could, they made one for the one NID guy

[04:22:29]

Lexridge:

it is done in the fasion of a tarantino movie

[04:22:44]

Lexridge:

kinda like Grindhouse

[04:22:53]

Lexridge:

but so much worse

[04:23:15]

[R]:

wagnerrp: remember they only lasted for 30 minutes or something

[04:23:31]

wagnerrp:

6 minutes in that episode

[04:23:33]

[R]:

6

[04:23:34]

[R]:

30

[04:23:34]

[R]:

whatever

[04:23:37]

wagnerrp:

but the aliends had them on for hours

[04:23:54]

[R]:

because they coudlnt' program them properly

[04:23:57]

[R]:

they explained that

[04:24:25]

wagnerrp:

sure, but that was how many years ago?

[04:24:31]

[R]:

ROFL

[04:24:45]

sphery:

but the bad guys could program them

[04:24:50]

wagnerrp:

christ, they built an intergalactic spacecraft from scratch in 6 years?

[04:24:53]

[R]:

wagnerrp: you should make a letter to the writers

[04:24:55]

sphery:

so, in theory, after taking them out, we figured out how

[04:25:19]

sphery:

plus, knowledge of the Asgard...

[04:25:37]

sphery:

(OK, maybe not safe to use it, but...)

[04:25:45]

[R]:

wagnerrp: you could write a whole episode... but of course in the end the technology has to fail

[04:26:24]

[R]:

so i have superman 1–4 recorded

[04:26:30]

wagnerrp:

what purpose would i have to write an episode? they already did groundhog day

[04:26:31]

[R]:

am i going to be disapointed?

[04:26:43]

wagnerrp:

they could have ended the series right there and i would be content

[04:26:57]

[R]:

lol

[04:27:04]

[R]:

where is my atlantis movies

[04:27:38]

Captain_Murdoch:

sphery, it doesn't matter much, but here's another solution for that guy on the -users list wanting to use a R/O directory in a SG. basically, add the new directory to the SG and move the old directory to another SG. don't assign any scheduled recordings to the new SG and no new recordings will go to it, but the SG file find code will find the old recordings in it.

[04:27:57]

wagnerrp:

[R]: in san francisco bay

[04:28:05]

sphery:

So, I haven't gotten SG-U, yet, because I can't figure out whether to get the complete first season (874min) or SG-U: 1.0 + SG-U: 1.5 (450min + 537min)

[04:28:05]

[R]:

wagnerrp: lol

[04:28:29]

[R]:

sphery: huh?

[04:28:31]

Lexridge:

goodnight fellas. thanks for the input.

[04:28:37]

wagnerrp:

hes trying to figure out what DVD set to buy

[04:28:40]

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[04:28:50]

[R]:

i gathered that much

[04:28:52]

sphery:

right, dvd set

[04:28:55]

[R]:

they have multipel versions of the same thing?

[04:29:10]

wagnerrp:

the full season, or two half seasons

[04:29:17]

sphery:

http://www.amazon.com/SGU-Stargate-Universe-C . . . p/B00402FGE4 or http://www.amazon.com/Stargate-Universe-SG-U- . . . p/B002R8JG58 + http://www.amazon.com/Stargate-Universe-SG-U- . . . p/B003KZ27M6

[04:29:33]

sphery:

it was released as 2 half seasons so dvd sales could help support the cost of the show

[04:29:47]

sphery:

I'm considering getting the 2 halves because it seems to have more content

[04:29:48]

[R]:

but how is the 2 halfs longer?

[04:29:50]

sphery:

but don't know what content

[04:29:56]

sphery:

likely extras

[04:29:59]

[R]:

oh

[04:30:00]

[R]:

i hate taht stuff

[04:30:09]

[R]:

i tried watching the extras on one of the seasons of sg1

[04:30:17]

wagnerrp:

theyre both 6 disks

[04:30:17]

[R]:

the one wher ethey found the antartic gate

[04:30:32]

[R]:

"im here with freakin mcgiver" is one quote from carter on the bloopers

[04:30:36]

[R]:

mcgyver*

[04:30:48]

[R]:

when they were stuck inn the ice

[04:31:29]

sphery:

Captain_Murdoch: I"m thinking that's an old thread from the start of your vacation... nice solution, though

[04:32:22]

Captain_Murdoch:

yeah, pretty old. :) I saw it while on vacation but didn't want to reply. then my cable modem went on the fritz and I couldn't get back into the house over the net.

[04:32:42]

Beirdo:

btw, my new balanced percentage free storage scheduling method... working pretty well :)

[04:33:07]

sphery:

Captain_Murdoch: oh, and btw, welcome back. we missed you

[04:33:13]

Beirdo:

we did

[04:33:14]

Captain_Murdoch:

beirdo, patch coming post 0.24?

[04:33:20]

Beirdo:

yup

[04:33:24]

Captain_Murdoch:

cool

[04:33:39]

Beirdo:

heck, you can have it now, if ya really want, but I was targeting post 0.24

[04:34:09]

Beirdo:

if you have disks of different sizes, balancing % free makes more sense to me than bytes free

[04:34:24]

wagnerrp:

why?

[04:34:43]

Captain_Murdoch:

sphery, thanks. I'd have been online, but it appears the cablemodem decided to stop transmitting only ~48 hours after I left the house. also had mythbackend segfault around the same time and I didn't have a monitor or restart script setup on the new-ish master yet, so I lost a weeks worth of recordings. :(

[04:35:02]

Beirdo:

why?

[04:35:23]

wagnerrp:

yeah, why would percentage matter

[04:35:31]

Beirdo:

because if you have a 300G and a 2TB, that 300G drive won't get touched until the 2TB is almost completely full

[04:35:35]

wagnerrp:

balancing free space is going to make the auto-expirer work more properly

[04:36:05]

sphery:

Captain_Murdoch: yeah, that's how it always seems to work--the downtime only happens when I'm gone

[04:36:21]

Beirdo:

the only real difference codewise is how the storage groups are sorted for use

[04:36:32]

sphery:

though since I pulled all the UPSes out of the system, I've had a /lot/ less downtime

[04:36:35]

sphery:

:)

[04:37:01]

Beirdo:

wagnerrp: right now, I have 300G, 320G, 500G

[04:37:13]

wagnerrp:

where if you have 3% free on each, youre going to start expiring off one drive, and still have 60GB free on the other

[04:37:19]

Beirdo:

I want all of them used, not nearly filling the 500G before touching the rest

[04:37:46]

Captain_Murdoch:

Beirdo, I still use the original method to balance I/O since I have 5 disks for recordings. I've often wondered if that setting should be something like "use method A then use method B", so you could put balance recordings across all 5 drives, then on the 6th recording put it on the drive with the most % free.

[04:37:52]

** sphery loves Combination **

[04:38:05]

Beirdo:

oooh, that would also be cool

[04:38:22]

wagnerrp:

IMHO, we should have some background balancer, and do I/O based only

[04:38:38]

Beirdo:

but as the next drive going is is planned to be 2TB, I care how it fills

[04:38:48]

Captain_Murdoch:

sphery, yeah, I need to setup some kind of way to power cycle my OpenWRT box and cable modem if I go offline. May have to actually start using one of my intelligent Baytech power strips with individual port control to get that functionality.

[04:38:55]

sphery:

wagnerrp: Captain_Murdoch has a patch that moves recordings around from SG dir to dir or SG to SG or host to host

[04:39:15]

wagnerrp:

sphery: i know, its been talked about in the past

[04:39:18]

Beirdo:

wagnerrp: yeah, that may fit your needs, but it won't fit everone's needs

[04:39:27]

sphery:

technically, I have the patch, too

[04:39:40]

wagnerrp:

something to put in whenever you do your housekeeper stuff

[04:39:40]

sphery:

but I'm sure it needs a lot of work, by now :)

[04:39:56]

Captain_Murdoch:

I'd also like to someday implement a "record locally then overnight copy to NAS" functionality built-in.

[04:40:09]

wagnerrp:

Beirdo: my problem with anything but free-space based is that youre going to end up prematurely expiring stuff

[04:40:15]

Beirdo:

yeah, make sure it's low priority to punt recordings around, but that does sound sweet

[04:40:24]

sphery:

wagnerrp: only if you fill your drives

[04:40:28]

wagnerrp:

since expiration is done on a per-drive basis

[04:40:29]

Captain_Murdoch:

sphery, my mythcommflag --copyfile patch still works, I used it the other day (well, ~ 2–3 weeks ago) to test something. :)

[04:40:35]

Beirdo:

wagnerrp: we'll see

[04:40:43]

sphery:

Captain_Murdoch: cool--figured it wouldn't apply, anymore

[04:40:48]

wagnerrp:

and if you dont let your drives fill, then theres no reason to do anything but load based

[04:40:49]

sphery:

haven't tried in a long time

[04:40:56]

Beirdo:

sure there is

[04:41:03]

sphery:

wagnerrp: exactly--that's why I use Combination

[04:41:05]

Beirdo:

just not a reason that matters to you

[04:41:07]

Beirdo:

:)

[04:41:39]

wagnerrp:

s/matters/makes any sense/

[04:41:39]

sphery:

I think we should rename this with cool names like elevator and deadline and ...

[04:41:58]

Captain_Murdoch:

wagnerrp, yeah, that's my scenario. I never get to the point of letting my drives fill up. I do need to upgrade the size on some though as I'm transcoding less and less and want to stop transcoding at all sometime soonish after I upgrade to 0.24-ish.

[04:42:40]

wagnerrp:

sphery: the WOPR

[04:42:49]

wagnerrp:

weighted orthogonal placer of recordings

[04:43:08]

wagnerrp:

(couldnt think of a better O word)

[04:43:25]

sphery:

wagnerrp: nice...

[04:43:44]

** sphery is hungry for popcorn **

[04:43:58]

wagnerrp:

we could give it all sorts of blinking lights... http://www.imsai.net/images/war_image/wopr.jpg

[04:44:25]

sphery:

and while it's copying the file, it plays tic-tac-toe?

[04:44:31]

Captain_Murdoch:

looks like an old miniature locomotive engine

[04:44:33]

wagnerrp:

and a complementary matthew broderick to play games against it

[04:44:43]

sphery:

heh

[04:48:06]

sphery:

Captain_Murdoch: ok, the only message from that thread I still have is one of the xfs-corrupting-filesystem ones, so not appropriate to reply to, so I'm not going to send off your suggestion :)

[04:49:28]

Captain_Murdoch:

sphery, no need or I'd have done it myself tonight, just wanted to mention it. I actually do something like that with some externally-transcoded recordings of my daughters. they're in a different SG on a different drive that is R/O as far as MythTV is concerned.

[04:49:36]

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[04:51:35]

sphery:

Ok, I've seen the "highest resolution phone screen *ever*" commercial in Fringe. Now if they play a "To the cloud!" commercial, I'll have seen the 2 most-annoying commercials *ever*.

[04:52:28]

sphery:

Besides, isn't it wrong to say, "highest resolution phone screen ever"? Don't they need to say, "so far," or, "to date," or "ever produced."

[04:52:47]

sphery:

(where past-tense "produced" excludes the future)

[04:53:59]

jstenback:

anyone here seen mythfrontend (trunk) assert to death on startup with an assert that says "A mutex must be unlocked in the same thread that locked it."?

[04:54:14]

wagnerrp:

pretty sure the 'assert'ion is an external issue

[04:54:25]

wagnerrp:

some external library doing something it should

[04:54:26]

wagnerrp:

nt

[04:54:28]

Beirdo:

sphery: add in the singing kittens for Quiznos

[04:54:33]

jstenback:

hmm

[04:54:52]

sphery:

Beirdo: heh, don't think I've seen that one--I'll listen for it on my snack runs

[04:54:54]

wagnerrp:

Beirdo: worse than the singing dead gerbils?

[04:55:21]

Beirdo:

hmm, that one sucked too

[04:55:34]

jstenback:

wagnerrp: you're saying you've seen this before?

[04:55:52]

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[04:56:00]

wagnerrp:

seen it personally? no, but ive heard of it

[04:56:12]

jstenback:

k

[04:56:20]

jstenback:

I have it in gdb here if anyone cares

[04:56:40]

jstenback:

but at this point it may be too late to find out where the mutex in question was created etc

[04:56:49]

wagnerrp:

mythbrowser with flash?

[04:57:28]

jstenback:

hmm, maybe, but this assert hits before I even get a window

[04:57:47]

ripperda:

I have some questions about using storage groups for Recordings vs Video, and how to archive Recordings from OTA to longer term storage

[04:58:19]

ripperda:

It looks like the best way to archive is to use one of many approaches to move recordings from the Default storage group to another storage group

[04:58:39]

wagnerrp:

ripperda: you want to archive them to MythVideo?

[04:58:40]

ripperda:

but once I've done that, how do I access that new storage group via the "Watch Recordings" menu?

[04:58:50]

jstenback:

wagnerrp: and mythbrowser is "disabled", as in, not an option in the UI, but still built and there I'm sure

[04:58:54]

ripperda:

wagnerrp, that's one of the questions I'm trying to figure out

[04:59:11]

wagnerrp:

for long term storage, you probably want to use mythvideo

[04:59:24]

wagnerrp:

it allows better organization of bulk data

[04:59:40]

wagnerrp:

the recordings screen really starts to get ungainly several hundred recordings in

[04:59:42]

ripperda:

wagnerrp, I've noticed 2 problems if I do: playback via Video (esp time shifting) seems less stable, and my videos group becomes very crowded with data

[04:59:59]

wagnerrp:

your videos.. folder?

[05:00:08]

ripperda:

but I may be doing something wrong, or just not experienced enough yet with managing videos

[05:00:09]

wagnerrp:

are you talking about images that fill it up?

[05:00:40]

ripperda:

yes, if I go to "Watch Videos", then I'll have dozens of entries for each television show

[05:00:48]

wagnerrp:

images only get placed in the Videos group, if you havent defined the other storage groups they are supposed to be placed in

[05:00:54]

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[05:01:10]

wagnerrp:

as to why duplicates would show up in mythvideo, i have no idea

[05:02:00]

ripperda:

in mythvideo, I see an entry for each episode (ie, there aren't dupes of individual episodes, just that if I have a dozen episodes, that fills up a lot of mythvideo space).

[05:02:01]

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[05:02:13]

wagnerrp:

so put them into folders

[05:02:32]

wagnerrp:

or pull metadata for them, and use one of the metadata-based sorting mechanisms

[05:02:34]

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[05:03:16]

ripperda:

ok, then I'll experiment with the metadata approach

[05:04:10]

wagnerrp:

...xkcd is pretty good today

[05:04:14]

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[05:04:53]

Baylink:

Yes... yes it is.

[05:05:16]

ripperda:

and what is used for playback of TV vs mythvideo? I'm not sure why, but time shifting live tv seems to work fine, whereas time shifting mythvideo sometimes hangs, esp if I go backwards

[05:05:44]

ripperda:

I haven't investigated that yet, but curious if I'm using different playback applications in those 2 cases

[05:05:53]

wagnerrp:

time shifting implies that the content was recorded at some point

[05:06:02]

wagnerrp:

that is not the case with mythvideo, only recorded content

[05:07:04]

ripperda:

I'm not clear what you mean by that; does that mean OTA has additional metadata for time shifting? obviously anything I'm playing back via mythvideo is recorded to a format on disk

[05:07:18]

wagnerrp:

i dont think 'time shifting' is the term youre looking for

[05:07:19]

sphery:

the question is what do you mean by time shifting?

[05:07:29]

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[05:07:41]

ripperda:

ah, I mean skipping a few/30 seconds forward and back, say to skip past commercials

[05:07:50]

wagnerrp:

time shifting means you have broadcast content occurring at one point in time, but you watch it at a different point in time

[05:07:59]

wagnerrp:

you have shifted playback in time

[05:08:08]

wagnerrp:

commercial skipping is just commercial skipping

[05:08:18]

wagnerrp:

mythvideo content is not expected to have commercials

[05:08:22]

ripperda:

ok, got it

[05:08:27]

wagnerrp:

so while the markup tables should work

[05:08:35]

wagnerrp:

there is no real way to get the proper data into them

[05:08:54]

wagnerrp:

the normal procedure is to do a lossless mpeg-to-mpeg transcode

[05:09:07]

sean__:

Hey Everyone. I am having some problems with 0.24. It does not tune to the correct channel when recording. It works perfectly in livetv. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[05:09:16]

wagnerrp:

to clip out the commercials, fix time codes, and anything else around the cut points

[05:09:22]

ripperda:

ok, got it. so that should be one of the steps of archiving; I've seen references to that, but hadn't gotten that far along

[05:09:26]

sphery:

ripperda: though you /can/ seek and jump fine in mythvideo videos--you just have to build a seektable

[05:09:28]

wagnerrp:

them you move the 30% smaller file to mythvideo

[05:09:30]

[R]:

sean__: what kind of tuner

[05:09:40]

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[05:09:44]

sean__:

HD-PVR x 2

[05:09:47]

sphery:

ripperda: for certain types of content--like the MPEG-2 that's often recorded

[05:10:06]

wagnerrp:

you dont /have/ to have a seek table

[05:10:11]

wagnerrp:

it just makes mpeg2 work better

[05:10:14]

sphery:

ripperda: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythVideo#Rebuild_seek_table

[05:10:20]

wagnerrp:

it also makes certain things work much much worse

[05:10:24]

sphery:

as well as http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythVideo

[05:10:39]

sphery:

right, thus the "for certain types of content"

[05:10:57]

[R]:

sean__: whta does the backend log look like

[05:10:59]

wagnerrp:

and for moving the content over automatically, you may want to see http://mythtv.org/wiki/Mythvidexport.py

[05:11:13]

[R]:

sean__: that wasn't an invitation to msg me

[05:11:36]

sean__:

Sorry, I have never used IRC before

[05:12:30]

ripperda:

thanks for all the tips. I'm taking notes here, to guide my research

[05:12:50]

sphery:

sean__: typically you'll use http://mythtv.pastebin.com/ and then post a link to the logs

[05:13:10]

sean__:

I did not know the etiquette

[05:14:33]

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[05:15:02]

k-man:

who was i talking to yesterday about the various getty options/

[05:15:02]

k-man:

?

[05:15:29]

sphery:

that was wagnerrp and I

[05:15:35]

sean__:

Ok, thanks guys, i will go pull the logs and put them on pastebin, i will come back then they are up, thanks for the help

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[05:20:26]

jstenback:

Beirdo: ?

[05:20:41]

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[05:20:43]

Beirdo:

yes?

[05:21:15]

jstenback:

Beirdo: so I have the frontend in a debugger here now, seemingly stuck like it was yesterday

[05:22:13]

Beirdo:

K

[05:23:27]

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[05:24:28]

jstenback:

Beirdo: so the frontend seems to be processing messages continously here

[05:24:58]

jstenback:

Beirdo: lots of custom events that end up in TV::UpdateOSDSignal()

[05:25:28]

ripperda:

I have another question related to storage groups & mythvideo; this time to displaying (or rather finding) coverart

[05:25:28]

sphery:

running the signal monitor?

[05:25:41]

[R]:

it's ridiculous how fake this ma's roadhouse show is

[05:25:44]

Beirdo:

not too surprising if you have the OSD up

[05:25:44]

sphery:

jstenback: were you the one with hdpvr failing to tune properly?

[05:25:57]

jstenback:

sphery: yes

[05:26:07]

wagnerrp:

hey, MESA rendering works again

[05:26:19]

sphery:

the signal monitor is now used for tuning with external scripts

[05:26:23]

ripperda:

I've been having a lot of problems with mythvideo seeming to "lose" coverart recently (I've had DB problems in the past with losing metadata whenever I change settings), but this time the rest of the metadata is fine, just no coverart

[05:26:43]

Beirdo:

sphery: yeah, but that's in the backend, not frontend

[05:26:45]

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[05:27:03]

sphery:

yeah, true

[05:27:08]

ripperda:

in the backend logs, I see this: ERROR: LocalFilePath unable to find local path for 'No Cover'.

[05:27:14]

jstenback:

Beirdo: I've got the backend *and* the frontend pegged at ~100% cpu here

[05:27:44]

ripperda:

I did notice that I have a storage group for coverart on the backend, and a coverart path on the frontend to the same directory

[05:27:57]

sphery:

ripperda: No Cover is the value stored when you have no cover file specified, so it sounds like something is "clearing" that field for you

[05:28:25]

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[05:28:43]

jstenback:

Beirdo: well, the backend gave up now it seems, but the fronend is still locked, at ~75% cpu

[05:28:43]

sphery:

might be due to mixing of local and SG for images

[05:28:44]

ripperda:

sphery, interesting, so when I go to a specific file in the mythvideo browser and pull up the metadata to edit, "15_coverart.jpg" is listed in the metadata

[05:28:58]

ripperda:

sphery, and when I browse to the directory in question, that file is there

[05:29:04]

ripperda:

that's what I'm thinking.

[05:29:26]

sphery:

I don't know details of required config, but http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/MythVideo knows far more than me

[05:29:31]

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[05:29:48]

jstenback:

Beirdo: QCoreApplicationPrivate::sendPostedEvents() is the what it's stuck in, but I'm guessing that's just the qt event loop

[05:30:00]

Beirdo:

jstenback: not sure what to debug right now. My mental batteries are pretty depleted.

[05:30:05]

ripperda:

so I have full path on the frontend, due to isos not yet streaming w/ mythvideo, but I also have archived mpgs in a separate subdirectory as a storage group for streaming

[05:30:22]

Beirdo:

sounds like the Qt event loop, yeah

[05:30:44]

ripperda:

ok, I'm wondering if since I have direct nfs access for isos and storage group for mpgs, I should also duplicate all of the related subdirectories (like coverart, etc).

[05:30:49]

jstenback:

Beirdo: ok. I can reproduce this at will it seems, and get it in gdb again, so I can get back into this tomorrow probably

[05:30:52]

ripperda:

I'll play around with that

[05:31:09]

jstenback:

Beirdo: any other info that would be helpful here, or anyone else I should talk to?

[05:32:08]

Beirdo:

might be best to put in a ticket and be as detailed as you can

[05:32:18]

sean__:

Ok, it is on pastebin @ www.mythtv.pastebin.com/PFucu4Tb

[05:32:19]

jstenback:

ok, will do

[05:32:29]

jstenback:

Beirdo: thanks!

[05:32:35]

wagnerrp:

ripperda: if you are using ISOs, you should consider upgrading to 0.24

[05:32:38]

Beirdo:

as you have the tools to aid in debugging with whoever takes it, you are likely good to go

[05:32:45]

Beirdo:

not a problem

[05:32:53]

ripperda:

wagnerrp, does .24 handle isos better?

[05:33:09]

wagnerrp:

it handles ISOs in storage groups, period

[05:33:11]

wagnerrp:

0.23 did not

[05:33:13]

ripperda:

I've been trying to get a grip on all my current issues before changing the overall config, but if there's a strong reason

[05:33:15]

ripperda:

ah, I see

[05:33:25]

k-man:

sphery: what is the getty program you use?

[05:33:43]

k-man:

the one i use doesn't seem to log me back in if i kill X (simulating x dying)

[05:34:04]

wagnerrp:

k-man: its not supposed to

[05:34:10]

wagnerrp:

your init does that

[05:34:15]

wagnerrp:

based off the rules in your inittab

[05:34:26]

k-man:

oh... i see

[05:34:26]

wagnerrp:

the getty program is a one-off

[05:34:33]

wagnerrp:

when it terminates by you logging off

[05:34:38]

wagnerrp:

init fires off a new one

[05:34:42]

k-man:

ah

[05:34:49]

sphery:

right

[05:35:47]

sean__:

I also noticed that there is a 1 in front of the channel number in the log file. In that script it should have tuned to channel 488

[05:36:08]

sean__:

not 1488

[05:36:10]

k-man:

ah, the rungetty only logs in once with autologin – if you log out or the login fails, it just reverts to a normal tty

[05:36:57]

sphery:

wagnerrp: btw, I love it when Altlivia/Olivialternate doesn't get her way

[05:37:52]

Beirdo:

niiice

[05:38:00]

Beirdo:

the frontend box just ate it

[05:38:57]

wagnerrp:

sphery: im starting to think i need to tweak mythremctl.py

[05:39:19]

wagnerrp:

its got very poor response... until i turn off the time/load/memory/location updates

[05:39:26]

wagnerrp:

then it runs great

[05:39:34]

wagnerrp:

but does nothing but proxy over keypresses

[05:41:05]

sphery:

weird

[05:41:12]

wagnerrp:

well its not weird

[05:41:16]

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[05:41:21]

wagnerrp:

its just showing that it takes a long time to poll that stuff

[05:41:35]

wagnerrp:

and updating once per second may not be the best of ideas

[05:41:36]

sphery:

but it used to not?

[05:41:51]

sphery:

oh, yeah, poll 1x/sec sounds a bit much

[05:43:03]

Beirdo:

wedged itself hard... with looping playback audio

[05:43:07]

Beirdo:

guh guh guh guh guh

[05:43:09]

Beirdo:

hehe

[05:45:52]

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[05:48:51]

Beirdo:

and... i put something down on the spacebar of the keyboard

[05:48:52]

Beirdo:

hehe

[05:49:08]

Beirdo:

I an having a great evening, it seems

[05:50:17]

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[05:50:33]

sphery:

so it was just setting and clearing bookmarks--which was triggering preview gens?

[05:51:10]

Beirdo:

heheh

[05:51:22]

Beirdo:

yeah, fun, eh?

[05:51:42]

sphery:

yeah

[05:51:50]

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[05:52:14]

** wagnerrp wishes he had a better CBS broadcaster **

[05:52:29]

wagnerrp:

3.1GB for a clipped NCIS episode

[05:53:07]

Beirdo:

ew

[05:53:21]

Beirdo:

that's what I was bookmarking the crap outta, actually

[05:53:38]

k-man:

what do you mean by clipped?

[05:54:18]

wagnerrp:

commercials removed

[05:55:50]

Beirdo:

Oh this is funny

[05:56:24]

Beirdo:

my sleeping bag... is rated... 26.1F for a "standard woman" to have a comfortable night of sleep

[05:56:48]

Beirdo:

and 14.4F for a "standard man" to have a comfortable night of sleep

[05:57:17]

wagnerrp:

ok?

[05:57:35]

Beirdo:

why does a woman need to be... 12F warmer?

[05:57:54]

wagnerrp:

the 'standard man' is going to be 'thicker'

[05:58:20]

Beirdo:

especially in the head

[05:58:24]

Beirdo:

we are pretty thick-headed

[05:58:43]

wagnerrp:

thicker torso, thicker limbs, generally higher metabolism

[05:59:40]

Beirdo:

makes sense

[05:59:41]

wagnerrp:

no place for sexism in survival gear

[05:59:45]

Beirdo:

heh

[06:00:31]

Beirdo:

true enough

[06:00:51]

** Beirdo cuts off the "under penalty of law" huge tags **

[06:01:09]

** wagnerrp calls the cops **

[06:01:16]

Beirdo:

heheh

[06:01:33]

Beirdo:

it says... "this tag not to be removed except by the consumer"

[06:01:39]

wagnerrp:

bad boys bay boy, whatcha gonna do? whatcha gonna do when you... go camping?

[06:01:46]

k-man:

standard men just don't feel the cold in the same way as standard women

[06:02:01]

Beirdo:

standard men are drunk

[06:02:45]

wagnerrp:

that just means they dont feel it in the short term

[06:03:14]

Beirdo:

heh, true

[06:03:33]

Beirdo:

wow, down sleeping bags really stuff down to a small stuff-sack

[06:03:52]

wagnerrp:

get some of those vacuum bags

[06:04:06]

wagnerrp:

the ones with a one-way valve

[06:04:08]

Beirdo:

heh, don't need em

[06:04:12]

wagnerrp:

you seal up one end

[06:04:18]

wagnerrp:

and press all the air out the valve at the other

[06:04:21]

Beirdo:

it's easily stuffed into the sack...

[06:04:38]

Beirdo:

and for storage, you hang it or at least let it breathe a lot

[06:04:57]

Beirdo:

the mesh storage bag is about 4x the size of the stuff sack

[06:05:41]

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[06:05:54]

ripperda:

thanks guys, I was able to resolve the main problems I was having.

[06:06:14]

ripperda:

for the missing coverart, the metadata just had the filename, but since I'm not using storage groups, it needed the full pathname

[06:06:37]

ripperda:

I'll experiment with the archiving & transcoding

[06:06:50]

ripperda:

also figured out the browsing aspect, still experimenting with it some

[06:06:56]

ripperda:

thanks much!

[06:07:05]

wagnerrp:

the metadata would only be a relative path if at some point you pulled those images using storage groups

[06:07:20]

ripperda:

yes, I've experimented back and forth w/ nfs path vs storage groups

[06:07:26]

ripperda:

so the data was stale

[06:07:37]

k-man:

wagnerrp and sphery fyi, mingetty's auto login will re-log you in if your login dies or you exit, rungetty only logs you in the once

[06:07:45]

ripperda:

I suspect that overlapping storage group & direct path was causing problems as well

[06:07:52]

ripperda:

so I've split those out

[06:08:10]

wagnerrp:

ripperda: its bad practice, but the storage group should override the local path

[06:08:49]

ripperda:

wagnerrp, ok, for now I'll just split them out. when I'm ready to upgrade to .24, I'll try to switch everything over to storage groups

[06:09:09]

ripperda:

at least in the meantime, I know how to resolve that problem if it arises again. also learned a little about debugging it

[06:09:19]

wagnerrp:

note that dvd isos only work if theyre unencrypted

[06:09:23]

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[06:09:32]

wagnerrp:

that means you actually need to pass them through some tool when ripping

[06:09:35]

wagnerrp:

'dd' wont cut it

[06:10:11]

ripperda:

ok, got it. is there an easy way to find out if mine are still encrypted? I believe they are, because I did have to install css before. I used vobcopy to rip them, which is probably the same as dd

[06:11:09]

wagnerrp:

no, vobcopy should decrypt them

[06:11:15]

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[06:11:31]

wagnerrp:

if it were the same as dd, there would be no need for that program

[06:11:54]

ripperda:

ah I guess that's a good point. is there a way to verify? a tool that can check?

[06:15:17]

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[06:29:23]

justinh:

rofl "Yay! We can see the MythTV recordings folder. Too bad the recordings are MPEG2 which aren't playable on @GoogleTV."

[06:29:32]

justinh:

googletv doesn't do mpeg2? epic fail

[06:30:23]

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[06:30:27]

wagnerrp:

why should it? no places online to stream it from

[06:31:39]

justinh:

apparently it sees a mythtv upnp thingy just fine.. bit of a shame if it can't play one of the most common media formats ever

[06:35:33]

wagnerrp:

worthless for myth's purposes? just about

[06:35:39]

wagnerrp:

but thats not what it was designed for

[06:36:05]

justinh:

yeh but to see stuff on a upnp AV server & not be able to play it.. that's just lame IMHO

[06:36:09]

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[06:37:50]

justinh:

so it's all gotta be online flashy stuff or else huh? also pretty lame. as for the 'tv' part.. limiting the interaction with 'live' content to overlaying stuff on top of video.. erm.. also pretty pointless. Much ado about something not very good. Again

[06:38:11]

justinh:

basically, it's not the mythical convergence box we've all been looking for :)

[06:47:29]

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[06:57:22]

justinh:

eew. just seen the list of supported formats. Not very good at all. A lot of TVs are more capable than that. Selling it as THE WAY to integrate all your home media & having a supported formats list as short as that is a bit daft. Hey ho. Back to my svg mangling

[07:06:09]

sphery:

justinh: heh, sounds like the whole point of http://www.reghardware.com/2010/10/18/wtf_is_dlna/

[07:06:26]

sphery:

though going beyond the badness of dlna to the badness of the underlying upnp

[07:07:46]

justinh:

yeah I read that. didn't make for inspiring reading

[07:07:57]

justinh:

just another trainwreck

[07:09:47]

justinh:

doesn't come as any great surprise though. even a cynic like me is optimistic sometimes.. and it's disappointing when companies can't come together enough to agree on a standard

[07:10:28]

justinh:

they may as well just have called it ItMightWorkWithYourStuff(tm)

[07:11:50]

justinh:

mind, the one good thing about something like googletv is that once widespread enough, its implimentation of something like upnp *could* become defacto

[07:13:43]

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[07:15:36]

sphery:

agreed

[07:15:56]

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[07:18:26]

justinh:

that's what's been wrong the whole time I think.. apart from the total lack of any certification

[07:18:59]

justinh:

it's been a real slow burner too – people are gonna start demanding this stuff just works like they said it would

[07:19:39]

justinh:

never helped that any upnp-capable NMT generally ships with its own server software either

[07:20:43]

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[07:26:18]

justinh:

hmm really tempted to keep this skull & crossbones icon for material myth is suspicious of

[07:27:44]

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[07:31:20]

justinh:

so I suppose it's time to start thinking of mpeg2 as a legacy format despite it still being broadcast all over the world

[07:31:36]

justinh:

and sold.. on bluray & dvd

[07:32:37]

jstenback:

Beirdo: fwiw, ticket 9123 filed

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[08:17:09]

justinh:

ugh inkscrape's 'hide all except selected' doesn't seem to be working on this version

[08:17:22]

justinh:

unless it's the imagecache in mythfrontend of course

[08:17:38]

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[08:18:11]

justinh:

mmmmnope

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[08:35:30]

justinh:

solved it by changing the background to transparent & just putting a coloured background behind my shapes so I can see em

[08:47:56]

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[08:57:38]

deegan:

When i edit a channel i have a choice of video source and since i'm using mythtv with a DVB-S and 2xLNB tuners i have two choices for many channels. Now, if i chose "not selected" would that make some round-robin selection everytime i visit the channel or just mess things up?

[08:58:17]

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[08:59:48]

deegan:

`This is mostly useful for when i am already watching something on one frontend or recording something and i want to watch something on another frontend or the same one that's doing the recording.

[09:03:05]

justinh:

ah first person.. so obviously from the wiki!

[09:03:56]

justinh:

enlightened person say "I only watch what I recorded previously"

[09:04:53]

deegan:

:)

[09:06:01]

deegan:

There is so much crap that comes over DVB-S, all this latvia and moldavia stuff. i most have cleared out +200 channels.

[09:06:01]

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[09:14:07]

justinh:

this is where future plans for mythtv's channel setup regime come in :)

[09:15:41]

deegan:

:)

[09:16:10]

deegan:

Actually it would be nice to do it the other way around, use xmltv to decide a list of channels and then use that list as a base for what to add to the channel list while schanning.

[09:16:17]

deegan:

err, scanning not schanning.

[09:16:56]

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[09:16:59]

deegan:

or if there's a better choice to using xmltv of course but i guess you can see my point of view.

[09:21:29]

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[09:24:08]

Beirdo:

so... people have been running trunk for "a month and a half or so" and just NOW say that MHEG seems borked?

[09:24:27]

Beirdo:

you'd think that they'd have reported that in a timely fashion

[09:25:05]

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[09:25:57]

Beirdo:

anyways, the frontend box wedged itself again

[09:26:13]

Beirdo:

good thing my replacement box is due in... tomorrow

[09:26:21]

Beirdo:

screw this, I'm going to bed

[09:35:26]

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[09:40:14]

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[10:34:20]

justinh:

hmm, with internet enabled STBs they'll be able to do away with all that mheg junk

[10:34:32]

justinh:

just point the software at a URL instead

[10:35:02]

justinh:

and if that happens to be a bunch of pages specially designed for STBs/TVs so be it :)

[10:44:03]

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[11:42:00]

deegan:

ugh, editing channels takes forever.

[11:42:32]

justinh:

not with my patented MythChannelEditor it doesn't :D

[11:42:41]

deegan:

go on. :)

[11:43:19]

justinh:

go into mythweb.. tv .. channel setup.. tick the 'delete' box on all the shopping/god/gaming channels... click SAVE. done

[11:44:21]

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[11:44:40]

justinh:

and I have a rather natty script which puts xmltvids into all the digital channels I'd like to use xmltv with :)

[11:45:53]

deegan:

hmm, well i've used xmltv to add channels to my list and right now i'm sitting here correcting all the mplexid's and sourceid's in the database by hand.

[11:46:15]

deegan:

basicly the channels added had no reference to where they actually are they where just names and an icon.

[11:46:56]

deegan:

Seems i'm going to have to scan again though, missing like 3 discovery channels.

[11:47:18]

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[11:47:34]

justinh:

getting DVB & xmltv to mash together isn't what I'd call easy

[11:47:57]

justinh:

nor has it ever really been properly thought out in mythtv IMHO – but that's not really anybody's fault

[11:48:43]

deegan:

I'm mashed in together with xmltv, how well scanning for channels work and then the combination of the two. Got nothing but time though, so i guess i shouldnt complain. ;)

[11:49:04]

justinh:

IMHO you should scan first, THEN configure xmltv

[11:49:19]

justinh:

so then you only populate xmltvids into channels you've got

[11:49:41]

justinh:

then you don't end up with unusable channels which have EPG data & icons but nothing else

[11:50:22]

justinh:

in theory mythtv could actually configure xmltv for us by giving the xmltv config process a list of channels it's got

[11:50:27]

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[11:50:44]

justinh:

except for the fact that channel names change, xmltvids change...

[11:51:20]

deegan:

Well, i'm in this for the long run and since there are no "one click wonder" features i figure i'm gonna have to get my hands dirty anyway.

[11:51:29]

justinh:

or myth could just look up xmltvids from a server somewhere.. which is updated periodically by human beings

[11:51:36]

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[11:51:38]

deegan:

and FYI i did do the scan first and then added stuff with xmltv, the only problem is the scan did not get all the channels.

[11:51:59]

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[11:52:52]

deegan:

it's not so much that i'll be watching Discovery World (for example) all day, but i pay for it so i want it in the list. :)

[11:54:35]

deegan:

20% and going, gogosuperscan

[11:54:41]

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[11:55:24]

justinh:

just wait til your provider gets CI+ onboard :-P

[11:55:32]

justinh:

won't matter what you pay for then

[11:55:33]

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[11:55:47]

justinh:

you'll be bound to use the provider's STB

[11:56:13]

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[11:57:05]

deegan:

Luckely there's only one provider in sweden doing that and it only affects the hd-channels.

[11:58:30]

justinh:

for now. muhahahaha

[11:59:55]

deegan:

i have faith in this, the two providers i'm using this with (Viasat and Canal Digital) have been broadcasting their stuff without too many limitations so far. the one i'm talking about is pretty closed up to begin with, only DVB-C and most of the houses that have their services dont have anything else to choose from regarding TV and Internet.

[12:01:09]

justinh:

I used to have faith. Now I'm an almost eternal cynic

[12:01:34]

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[12:01:42]

deegan:

:)

[12:03:34]

deegan:

Well to begin with we are all f*cked and the tv-companies can do whatever they want based on protecting their product so i wont say never, but it wouldnt make sense to do something now when they have been broadcasting hdtv for so many years not to mention the regular digital broadcasting which is i dont know how old. changing their strategy now would be a little like when hitler said "hey russia i'm coming to stalingrad".

[12:03:40]

deegan:

it's just not good business.

[12:03:41]

deegan:

:)

[12:04:10]

deegan:

and downright stupid.

[12:05:04]

justinh:

if your customers are stupid enough to put up with whatever draconian measures you take – i.e. limiting them to your own sanctioned hardware, epg & software... then you're laughing. Oh hello Syy TV

[12:05:09]

justinh:

*Sky TV

[12:08:01]

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[12:42:56]

deegan:

heh, i think i found the culprit. Horizontal VS Vertical.

[12:43:39]

deegan:

Strange though that it accepted the input frequenzy/fec/sr and locked in on it.

[12:44:35]

deegan:

So this means 2scans for each LNB on both horizontal and vertical. *notes it down*

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[13:30:33]

forrest2:

Hi there, is there any S-Video only tuner? I want to connect my set top box to my mythtv box

[13:31:04]

justinh:

no there are no cards which only have svideo inputs

[13:31:28]

forrest2:

buying a tv tuner just to use S-Video/Composite seems to be a waste :(

[13:31:59]

justinh:

the tuners used on TV tuner cards wouldn't reduce the cost much if they weren't included

[13:32:56]

forrest2:

I see, things is I already have 2 usb tuners, none with S-Video/composite input

[13:32:57]

peitolm:

forrest2: there are framegrabbers that do composite and s-video but don't have a tuner, fex. the hauppauge USB-Video

[13:33:13]

peitolm:

linux drivers are still quite new

[13:33:29]

forrest2:

they are supported by mythtv?

[13:33:29]

justinh:

usb framegrabbers? mmm tasty. not

[13:33:40]

peitolm:

there's also the HD-PVR, but I'm not sure it does s-vid

[13:33:53]

peitolm:

justinh: it's still an mpeg strem

[13:34:04]

justinh:

peitolm: so they're not framegrabbers then

[13:34:07]

peitolm:

i'd take a frame grabber over a tuer

[13:34:23]

peitolm:

justinh: what would you call it then?

[13:34:26]

justinh:

framegrabbers grab only frames of video.. one frame at a time

[13:34:31]

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[13:34:33]

justinh:

capture device

[13:34:56]

forrest2:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EASYCAP-VIDEO-CAPTURE-CAR . . . em1e5f2be5e8

[13:35:00]

peitolm:

it's still a framegrabber, it's grabbing the video stream and then passing it on, it's not decoding a broadcasy

[13:35:04]

forrest2:

is this guy any good you think?

[13:35:17]

justinh:

forrest2: no

[13:35:24]

justinh:

peitolm: it's not a framegrabber

[13:35:26]

justinh:

damnit

[13:35:40]

justinh:

framegrabbers do not do any kind of compression

[13:35:57]

justinh:

all they do is grab a frame from an active video signal

[13:36:01]

justinh:

no processing, no encoding

[13:36:19]

peitolm:

so it's a framegrabber and an encoder

[13:36:23]

peitolm:

meh, whatever

[13:36:41]

justinh:

forrest2: thing is, you're gonna need the thing to work in linux

[13:36:58]

forrest2:

I see

[13:37:04]

justinh:

forrest2: no linux drivers.. and there's no way to guarantee there are linux drivers for some junk you buy from ebay... no worky

[13:37:55]

justinh:

and fwiw those Hauppauge 'video live' things don't appear to have audio inputs.. so I've no idea how capture software is supposed to keep audio & video in sync

[13:38:21]

forrest2:

hmm

[13:43:15]

justinh:

pvr-usb maybe.. but then that's not something you can buy new anymore

[13:43:25]

justinh:

you're really limited if you absolutely *need* USB

[13:43:53]

forrest2:

I actually have some pci slots left

[13:44:11]

forrest2:

any well supported card you recommend?

[13:44:21]

justinh:

I don't recommend anything. ever

[13:44:35]

forrest2:

any thing that works then :-)

[13:44:38]

justinh:

I used to use a pvr-150 card

[13:44:45]

justinh:

you can pick those up on ebay still

[13:45:19]

forrest2:

cool, I'll take a look, thanks

[13:45:29]

justinh:

some of the hauppauge hvr PCI cards have onboard mpeg encoders too

[13:46:00]

justinh:

they're hybrid analogue/digital – which means you can use them as DVB tuners when you're not recording analogue video&audio

[13:48:28]

forrest2:

So to set it up, i need to connect audio + s-video/composite, is that correct?

[13:48:30]

devinheitmueller:

FYI: The USB-Live2 does have analog inputs.

[13:48:39]

devinheitmueller:

pardon, I meant "audio"

[13:49:18]

justinh:

heh product info page I found didn't mention audio

[13:49:38]

devinheitmueller:

justinh: assuming you're referring to this one: http://hauppauge.com/site/products/data_usblive2.html

[13:49:46]

justinh:

said composite, svideo & made no mention of any audio.. also the picture didn't show any audio connectors

[13:50:17]

justinh:

no, I couldn't find it on the hauppauge UK website.. it was a web reseller

[13:50:38]

justinh:

and yup.. that's just a framegrabber. yuck

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[13:51:18]

devinheitmueller:

Yeah, framegrabbers are not recommended for MythTV (they have other applications which they are good at, but not MythTV)

[13:51:32]

devinheitmueller:

If he needs USB, the HVR-1950 is a well supported choice.

[13:51:40]

devinheitmueller:

(albeit a pricey one)

[13:51:42]

forrest2:

I don't need USB

[13:52:07]

forrest2:

PCI works for me too

[13:52:21]

devinheitmueller:

They you can look at an HVR-1600.

[13:52:57]

devinheitmueller:

What country are you in?

[13:53:28]

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[13:53:29]

forrest2:

France,

[13:53:33]

devinheitmueller:

Ah, ok.

[13:54:10]

forrest2:

I just need composite/S-video tho', so never mind the coaxial connection

[13:54:39]

devinheitmueller:

Yeah, you won't find any devices which capture composite/s-video which have an MPEG encoder and don't have a tuner.

[13:55:12]

justinh:

like I said, not including the kind of tuners manufacturers use on PC tuner cards likely won't reduce the price much anyway

[13:55:51]

justinh:

if anything I think a company would more likely charge more money for a more specialised device :-P

[13:56:25]

justinh:

you might think you're paying more for a feature you'll never use, but really you're probably not :-)

[13:57:27]

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[13:57:50]

forrest2:

I see, so the cost is in the encoder, the tv signals just happen to be there :D

[13:59:57]

justinh:

they put very cheap tuner components onboard.. tuners on PC cards are seldom as good quality as you'd find in a TV, e.g.

[14:00:39]

justinh:

probably more of a moot point these days though.. silicon tuners are dirt cheap anyway and can be pretty good

[14:00:57]

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[14:01:37]

forrest2:

weird, I don't see any audio input for this guy http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en& . . . 0CCEQ8wIwAg#

[14:02:19]

justinh:

$111 for that piece of junk? :-O

[14:02:36]

devinheitmueller:

It's six years old, and I don't think it has an MPEG encoder.

[14:02:51]

forrest2:

nevermind the price, I found cheaper elsewhere

[14:02:57]

justinh:

audio input is a 3.55 stereo jack

[14:03:00]

justinh:

and it IS junk

[14:03:09]

justinh:

no mpeg encoder onboard

[14:03:18]

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[14:03:40]

justinh:

save yourself some time. look in the linuxtv.org wiki to see what is supported, then go shopping

[14:03:48]

forrest2:

ok

[14:04:00]

justinh:

you'll likely save yourself wasting money too

[14:06:30]

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[14:09:11]

forrest2:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Video_capture_card. Looks like framegrabbers work, but very CPU consuming

[14:09:25]

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[14:09:40]

justinh:

yes. we do not advocate anybody use framegrabber devices

[14:10:04]

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[14:10:05]

justinh:

support for them may even be dropped from mythtv one day (fingers crossed)

[14:33:32]

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[14:45:52]

forrest2:

does the Winfast PVR2000 work with mythtv?

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[15:04:40]

iamlindoro:

jstenback: Please read our ticket howto, milestone and severity are not for user use-- we'll figure out what our deadline for fixing bugs is ;)

[15:05:33]

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[15:25:01]

skd5aner:

wagnerrp: is r26904 going to backported to 0.24?

[15:33:33]

wagnerrp:

skd5aner: eventually, havent decided whether or not before release

[15:36:36]

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[15:37:39]

skd5aner:

ok, np – it's not necessarily hard for me to track what's going into the 0.24 release, but it's much more difficult for me to tell if something is destined specifcally for the 0.25 release

[15:38:18]

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[15:38:19]

skd5aner:

nature of the beast I guess given the methodology of the branch

[15:38:23]

skd5aner:

until release

[15:42:36]

wagnerrp:

i still need to fix handling when you try to reconnect when the thing is actually down

[15:43:51]

wagnerrp:

and there's probably a risk of it hitting the recursion limiter

[15:45:20]

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[15:51:51]

ThisNewGuy:

Hi all – can anyone help me with a python binding issue: http://pastebin.com/uCLyzNM1

[15:51:59]

ThisNewGuy:

I just svn up'd

[15:52:56]

wagnerrp:

to what?

[15:53:42]

ThisNewGuy:

trunk 26909

[15:54:08]

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[15:54:33]

wagnerrp:

what did i miss...

[15:55:51]

wagnerrp:

ah

[16:02:12]

wagnerrp:

fixed

[16:04:22]

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[16:05:14]

ThisNewGuy:

looks good – thanks!

[16:05:19]

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[16:10:13]

ThisNewGuy:

Does anyone know if this is a real error: http://pastebin.com/mCern6bS

[16:10:31]

iamlindoro:

no

[16:10:40]

iamlindoro:

Spurious and harmless

[16:10:53]

iamlindoro:

And about to commit something to prevent it displaying anyway

[16:10:53]

ThisNewGuy:

k thanks!

[16:11:20]

ThisNewGuy:

cool

[16:11:32]

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[16:34:43]

sean__:

My backend records the wrong channel but changes channel properly in livetv. Section of Backend log > http://mythtv.pastebin.com/PFucu4Tb 0.24/2xhd-pvr

[16:37:53]

sean__:

Also my OSD sometimes resets itself. IE I just tuned channel 488, when I press up, the OSD may show channel 2

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[16:58:30]

sphery:

Shouldn't we have been able to walk grounded through the entire process of choosing every component of the distro for his setup, by now? Why are there still tons of new messages in those threads?

[16:59:42]

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[17:00:46]

iamlindoro:

[mythtv-users] Todays update broke 0.24. Backend not running. HELP

[17:01:05]

iamlindoro:

Development software runs like development software! And is complicated when you are only capable of using packages! Oh noes!

[17:01:06]

** sphery is waiting for the "I'm running 0.25" threads **

[17:01:16]

iamlindoro:

I want to respond with one word

[17:01:20]

iamlindoro:

YouMustBeThisTallToRide

[17:01:33]

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[17:01:55]

sphery:

heh

[17:02:18]

wagnerrp:

yeah, but that was brian clem

[17:06:47]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: sorry, my bad regarding milestone etc :(

[17:06:58]

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[17:07:48]

iamlindoro:

jstenback: My random hunch says that your standalone frontend should work find, and your SBE/frontend should work fine with the SBE turned off-- is that so?

[17:07:52]

iamlindoro:

er work fine

[17:08:01]

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[17:08:43]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: I suspect you're right. I'm going to see if I could move my HD-PVR to a different computer and try to reproduce there

[17:09:02]

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[17:09:04]

iamlindoro:

jstenback: If you could just hang with us through our troubleshooting process before making any major changes, it would help

[17:09:04]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: I will answer all the questions in the ticket once I get a bit more free time (might be tonight)

[17:09:30]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: sure can

[17:09:35]

iamlindoro:

since while I am almost certain that removing the SBE from the equation will fix your issue, it would be nice to avoid the issue to begin with

[17:10:13]

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[17:10:17]

iamlindoro:

(and the issue may be a matter of toggling the always stream from MBE off, but we need to know its current state)

[17:10:24]

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[17:10:32]

wagnerrp:

and look, yet another thread

[17:11:01]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: I just set up a quick test where I run the sbe with -v all and when I do that and the frontend gets "stuck" I see "MythEvent: SIGNAL 1" repeated in the backend log many times per second

[17:11:07]

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[17:11:26]

iamlindoro:

Captain_Murdoch: ^^^ Thoughts on the above?

[17:11:26]

jstenback:

with a bunch of mythsocket stuff in between each such message

[17:11:34]

iamlindoro:

jstenback: Do you have any event stuff configured?

[17:11:40]

iamlindoro:

and if so, what?

[17:11:43]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: no

[17:12:02]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: lemme pastebin a snippet...

[17:13:11]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/822543

[17:14:02]

iamlindoro:

jstenback: Captain_Murdoch is the king of MythEvent, so this may be obvious when he can look at it-- but it does sound like the event system is going into overdrive and preventing the backend from maintaining a reliable connection

[17:14:13]

iamlindoro:

and then your TV issue is just a symptom

[17:14:32]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: another data point is that if I kill the sbe, the frontend recovers

[17:14:42]

iamlindoro:

jstenback: Yes, that's as I expected

[17:14:48]

jstenback:

obviously complaining about the connection being lost etc

[17:15:05]

iamlindoro:

jstenback: start both backends with -v network, reproduce that issue, and add it to the ticket please

[17:15:10]

iamlindoro:

(add both BE logs)

[17:15:21]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: will do

[17:21:19]

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[17:23:34]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: ok, tried to do that, and of course this time it didn't reproduce, I was able to change channels many times and it just worked

[17:23:37]

jstenback:

but

[17:23:48]

jstenback:

I then restarted the frontend, tried again

[17:24:13]

jstenback:

this time when I went to watch live tv, it locked up before showing me anything

[17:24:58]

jstenback:

iamlindoro: and then I saw the same thing happening in the mbe logs

[17:25:46]

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[17:29:11]

sphery:

jstenback: mysql -umythtv -p mythconverg -e 'SELECT * FROM settings WHERE value = "AlwaysStreamFiles";'

[17:33:02]

jstenback:

sphery: 0 on the master backend, 1 on everything else

[17:35:10]

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[17:35:15]

sphery:

jstenback: mysql -umythtv -p mythconverg -e 'UPDATE settings SET data = "0" WHERE value = "AlwaysStreamFiles";'

[17:36:40]

jstenback:

sphery: want me to try to reproduce after that?

[17:37:01]

sphery:

jstenback: please... you'll need to restart everything or at least mythbackend --clearcache

[17:37:23]

jstenback:

I can restart

[17:38:38]

sphery:

that's ideal. thanks.

[17:39:29]

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[17:42:58]

wagnerrp:

iamlindoro: beat me to it while i was looking up the logs for the exact reason it was canned

[17:43:59]

iamlindoro:

wagnerrp: whichnow?

[17:44:01]

sphery:

mtd

[17:44:29]

jstenback:

sphery: so far so good, I'll play more with this tonight once I'm back from work.

[17:45:02]

jstenback:

sphery: but I still do see a whole lot of "MythEvent: SIGNAL 1" in the logs, often many many times per second

[17:45:11]

jstenback:

sphery: but maybe that's normal

[17:45:27]

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[17:47:39]

iamlindoro:

I think the mythevent stuff is probably a bug unto itself

[17:47:51]

iamlindoro:

and very possibly the core cause-- but Captain_Murdoch really needs to see and comment

[17:48:28]

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[17:48:43]

sphery:

yeah, it's quite possible that your slave backend can't do both the event stuff and stream with its resources

[17:48:54]

sphery:

besides, an atom system shouldn't be using streaming from local backend, anyway

[17:49:38]

sphery:

so if there's some deluge of MythEvent stuff, fixing that may make it so it would have worked, but you don't want always stream, anyway

[17:50:37]

jstenback:

sphery: ok, cool! Again, I'll play more tonight

[17:51:05]

** jstenback still needs to update the ticket, but that'll need to wait until after work **

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[18:06:54]

iamlindoro:

"I did mention I'm in the UK, but you've given me a link to the US amazon site."

[18:07:02]

iamlindoro:

Could people be any more allergic to help?

[18:07:17]

iamlindoro:

talk about biting the hand that feeds you

[18:08:12]

kormoc:

iamlindoro, tell him to move to the US?

[18:08:18]

Beirdo:

heh

[18:08:59]

wagnerrp:

Beirdo: do you have any idea how variable length content is supposed to work over UPNP?

[18:09:09]

wagnerrp:

stuff like livetv or in-progress recordings?

[18:09:29]

sphery:

heh

[18:09:31]

Beirdo:

not off-hand, but there is supposed to be a way

[18:09:40]

wagnerrp:

do clients that do it just set an absurdly large file size? or is there some sort of mechanism to update the file size during playback?

[18:09:46]

Beirdo:

oh, and let the whining about DVD ripping commence

[18:09:49]

sphery:

pretty sure all the ones that do that set an absurdly small file size

[18:09:54]

sphery:

and then just a bunch of files

[18:10:15]

sphery:

or wait, that's for seeking support

[18:10:38]

Beirdo:

for seeking, most will use HTML-style ranges

[18:11:43]

Beirdo:

not sure on the live tuning style. I remember seeing something along those lines though

[18:12:57]

sphery:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/455866#455866 is what I was thinking of

[18:13:53]

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[18:16:10]

Beirdo:

ugh

[18:16:34]

Beirdo:

I really don't like that idea, the processing required to generate yet another seektable essentially... ick

[18:16:50]

Beirdo:

and our current seektables are problematic enough, thanks

[18:17:31]

sphery:

yeah, I'm not a fan of the idea, either

[18:17:47]

sphery:

even if we do store the recordings as a single file and just make them /look/ like tons of files to players

[18:18:16]

Beirdo:

that's more trouble than its worth

[18:18:23]

Beirdo:

seeking in upnp works

[18:18:29]

sphery:

yeah

[18:18:30]

Beirdo:

last I tried it anyways

[18:18:36]

sphery:

is it limited by codec or container or something?

[18:18:39]

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[18:18:44]

Beirdo:

shouldn't be

[18:19:05]

Beirdo:

the client just says "play from this byte offset"

[18:19:13]

sphery:

I thought I remembered someone talking about that approach as the only way to allow seeking in some things

[18:19:22]

Beirdo:

it calculates where it wants to go, and seems to work OK

[18:20:13]

sphery:

http://flowplayer.org/plugins/streaming/pseudostreaming.html

[18:20:46]

Beirdo:

we can easily support time-based

[18:21:00]

Beirdo:

I have the code in my commskip branch to do exactly that

[18:21:57]

Captain_Murdoch:

iamlindoro, just to make sure we're clear, MythEvent != MythSystemEvent. MythEvent is an overloaded QEvent. MythSystemEvent is my 'run command X whenever system event Y occurs' code. I can't look now but will try to read scrollback later to see if anything makes sense to me with this issue though.

[18:22:11]

Beirdo:

other parts of that branch aren't working right, but that part was working fine, IIRC

[18:22:24]

iamlindoro:

Captain_Murdoch: Yeah, I realized after the fact

[18:23:01]

sphery:

Beirdo: yeah, it's looking like all the previous, "we need to pretend it's tiny files" mentions in mythweb context were solved by doing the pseudostreaming thing

[18:24:00]

Beirdo:

pretty much

[18:24:44]

Beirdo:

the "byte serving" they mention is how our upnp code currently is working

[18:25:29]

** Beirdo busily rebuilds the seektable on every analog capture and all his CBS OTA ones **

[18:25:32]

Beirdo:

heh

[18:25:34]

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[18:25:55]

Beirdo:

the OTA ones still are borked, but the analog ones work right now

[18:26:17]

sphery:

yeah, sounds like seektable rebuilds (at least) are currently broken on some content

[18:26:34]

Beirdo:

not in MPEG2 that I can see

[18:26:55]

Beirdo:

I can't really test the borkage of H.264 until I'm at home to see the results

[18:27:19]

Beirdo:

but it's quite possible there's some oddities in the code somewhere

[18:30:26]

sphery:

http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/9109 is the one that makes it sound like it's broken for mpeg-2

[18:30:28]

Beirdo:

the in-recording seektable for 1080i OTA seems to be consistently borked for me

[18:30:48]

Beirdo:

that's not a rebuild

[18:30:51]

Beirdo:

that's a capture

[18:31:30]

sphery:

right

[18:31:34]

sphery:

and #9109 isn't a rebuild

[18:31:42]

Beirdo:

hmm

[18:31:50]

Beirdo:

I think that's precisely the bug I see

[18:31:58]

Beirdo:

fugh.

[18:32:19]

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[18:32:39]

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[18:34:46]

Beirdo:

OK, claiming that joyous ticket

[18:35:13]

sphery:

heh, cool

[18:35:48]

Beirdo:

what was the other polished turd?

[18:36:48]

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[18:38:30]

sphery:

you mean the other seektable ticket? http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/9126

[18:38:37]

Beirdo:

ah yes, the H.264 one :)

[18:38:56]

sphery:

Beirdo: btw, the comment I ref'ed on #9126 ( http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/8706#comment:7 ) may not be H.264

[18:39:02]

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[18:39:07]

sphery:

wagnerrp could tell you

[18:39:10]

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[18:39:47]

Beirdo:

well, I'll have to take a look at it all

[18:39:47]

wagnerrp:

?

[18:39:51]

sphery:

don't know if that's from an HD-PVR or an HDHR or ...

[18:39:56]

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[18:40:10]

Beirdo:

but probably won't get too much of a chance until Sunday night if I can't get it done tonight

[18:40:13]

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[18:40:18]

Beirdo:

and with building the new frontend box...

[18:40:22]

sphery:

wagnerrp: your interlaced seektables/markup has values at 2xframes

[18:40:29]

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[18:40:41]

wagnerrp:

ah, mpeg2

[18:40:51]

sphery:

what? you won't have wifi at the campground?

[18:41:22]

Beirdo:

absolutely not :)

[18:41:34]

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[18:41:40]

sphery:

but how will you know if the snake that bit you is poisonous?

[18:41:45]

Beirdo:

and the iPhone's staying in the car... and probably won't have crap for signal anyways

[18:41:49]

Baylink:

3G

[18:41:51]

Baylink:

Crap

[18:42:21]

wagnerrp:

anyone know where the ProgramInfo definition is off hand?

[18:42:46]

wagnerrp:

nevermind, found it in libmyth

[18:42:57]

Beirdo:

we will be in an area with bad signal (known bad)

[18:43:17]

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[18:43:34]

Beirdo:

anyways, seems that interlaced is the common factor between what I'm seeing and what #9102 sees

[18:44:46]

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[18:44:57]

sphery:

I like that Beirdo runs trunk on production... Really increases his motivation to fix the bugs.

[18:45:12]

Beirdo:

sure does :)

[18:45:23]

Beirdo:

and increases my aggravation at times. Hehe

[18:45:27]

sphery:

heh, yeah

[18:45:37]

sphery:

I used to do trunk on production

[18:45:43]

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[18:46:00]

Beirdo:

I would not suggest it to anyone with a SWMBO around

[18:46:02]

sphery:

I've since learned to enjoy the peace of mind of running -fixes on production and trunk only on dev boxes

[18:46:09]

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[18:46:25]

sphery:

In my case, the MWMBO would be the problem

[18:46:29]

sphery:

(Me)

[18:47:43]

Beirdo:

:)

[18:48:17]

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[18:48:27]

Beirdo:

holy crap.

[18:48:34]

Beirdo:

rebuilding at 4500fps

[18:49:34]

sphery:

wow, that could be as fast as 45s to do a 1hr/30fps show

[18:49:50]

sphery:

(ok, not exactly, but close)

[18:50:20]

Beirdo:

interesting.

[18:50:24]

sphery:

ok, 24s

[18:50:24]

Beirdo:

this one was 720p

[18:50:44]

sphery:

ah, so 720p60 would be 48s

[18:50:51]

kth:

hello everyone – is there some cli tool which show me wether mythfrontend is actually watching live tv/recordings or not ?

[18:51:00]

sphery:

my original 45s was actually 60fps

[18:51:40]

Beirdo:

:)

[18:51:56]

Beirdo:

this one (Nikita) is going at 880fps

[18:52:37]

** wagnerrp wonders why people are so afraid to get their hands dirty with compiled languages **

[18:52:45]

Beirdo:

beats me

[18:52:56]

wagnerrp:

but are perfectly fine digging into scripts

[18:53:35]

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[18:53:51]

Beirdo:

errr. #9109, not #9102 in my comment above

[18:53:52]

Beirdo:

heh

[18:53:54]

wagnerrp:

someone on mythtvtalk wanting to access %ORIGINALAIRDATE% from a user job

[18:54:15]

Beirdo:

what's wrong with that?

[18:54:18]

wagnerrp:

i gave them two options, patch in that string, or pull the data manually from the database (preferably with perl or python)

[18:54:24]

Beirdo:

yeah

[18:54:25]

Beirdo:

;0

[18:54:46]

wagnerrp:

they chose to try to learn perl or python, rather than the /single line/ necessary to add that string substitution into the jobqueue code

[18:55:16]

high-rez:

Hey should ATSC subtitles be behaviong well in 0.24 ?

[18:55:26]

high-rez:

Mine as disappearing too quickly to read.

[18:55:30]

wagnerrp:

they shoudl be behaviong well in 0.23

[18:55:58]

sphery:

better in trunk, though

[18:56:05]

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[19:02:32]

dewman:

kth, there is a mythtv-status but i dont know if it will do what you are asking.

[19:02:36]

dewman:

kth, http://www.etc.gen.nz/projects/mythtv/mythtv-status.html

[19:03:01]

wagnerrp:

doubtful, last i checked, it pulled primarily from the backend status page

[19:03:13]

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[19:03:39]

wagnerrp:

kth: http://mythtv.org/wiki/Telnet_socket#query

[19:06:35]

kth:

dewman: thx – but this tool seems to do that what my script currently do – do you know wether the encoders are working while watching live tv or recordings ?

[19:07:02]

duffydack:

any way to watch 1 channel and record another.. I`m using uk freeview.

[19:07:30]

iamlindoro:

Yes... install two tuners

[19:07:40]

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[19:07:50]

dewman:

kth, no idea....I barely even know how to balance my own checkbook.

[19:07:52]

dewman:

=)

[19:09:32]

duffydack:

iamlindoro, was hoping for a miracle with 1 :)

[19:10:23]

sphery:

kth: backend status page? http://localhost:6544/ (or whatever you use for mythbackend hostname/IP address)

[19:10:39]

wagnerrp:

kth: see the telnet socket page i linked you to

[19:11:11]

kth:

wagnerrp: thx i'm currently checking how I do it with telnetinterface ;)

[19:13:06]

kth:

wagnerrp: ah k i've to use "query location" which give me "Playback LiveTV ..."

[19:13:26]

** iamlindoro just sent the worlds punniest -users message **

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[19:19:54]

momelod:

greetings channel

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[19:20:34]

momelod:

im in the market for a spanking new htpc setup. Anyone aware of any good pre-builts?

[19:20:51]

wagnerrp:

what are your playback and recording needs?

[19:22:42]

momelod:

im moving from sd to hd

[19:22:55]

momelod:

put it off for long enough :)

[19:23:10]

wagnerrp:

broadcast HD? cable HD? satellite HD?

[19:23:32]

iamlindoro:

US? UK? Germany?

[19:23:40]

wagnerrp:

rogers, so canada

[19:28:29]

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[19:28:50]

wagnerrp:

some people make it so hard to help...

[19:29:04]

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[19:29:43]

kth:

wagnerrp: is this telnet interface stable ? or cause it sometimes mythfrontend to death?

[19:30:11]

wagnerrp:

ive never seen it 'death' a frontend before

[19:30:24]

** iamlindoro deaths wagnerrp **

[19:30:48]

kth:

wagnerrp: well okay my mythfrontend is killed by this telnet interface sometimes ;)

[19:30:59]

wagnerrp:

ive never seen that either

[19:31:06]

wagnerrp:

is it causing a segfault?

[19:31:31]

wagnerrp:

or just some stall?

[19:31:43]

kth:

wagnerrp: good question – i'll take a look – at this time im sure there is a fault in my expect script ;)

[19:32:14]

wagnerrp:

what are you writing it in?

[19:33:44]

kth:

wagnerrp: nano ;) or what did you mean?

[19:33:53]

iamlindoro:

[19:34:05]

wagnerrp:

what language

[19:34:30]

kth:

wagnerrp: just shellscript using "/usr/bin/expect"

[19:35:09]

sphery:

kth: current mythtv 0.23-fixes? There used to be a problem where if you failed to disconnect properly, it would kill the frontend.

[19:35:31]

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[19:36:39]

kth:

sphery: thx – that could be the problem because i solved a bug in the script which caused an error in telnet cli session and it seams that after that there is no quit ;)

[19:37:08]

wagnerrp:

there is no quit, you just have to properly close the socket

[19:37:09]

sphery:

kth: so the right fix would be to update to current 0.23-fixes

[19:37:16]

kth:

wagnerrp: http://mythtv.pastebin.com/NrwjiT30 <-- this one does the job – but i've to put this output through another script to geht just watching tv or not ;)

[19:37:31]

sphery:

kth: mythbackend --version (to pastebin, please)

[19:37:54]

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[19:38:01]

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[19:38:26]

kth:

sphery: http://mythtv.pastebin.com/qNxNPhZd

[19:38:39]

kth:

sphery: seams to be already the 23 with fixes ;)

[19:38:57]

sphery:

yeah, looks like it's the end of 0.23.0

[19:39:09]

sphery:

I don't remember when the disconnect bug was fixed

[19:39:23]

sphery:

might be fixed if you update to 0.23.1's version of -fixes

[19:39:35]

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[19:39:35]

sphery:

but make sure all your other systems can use 0.23.1

[19:40:05]

kth:

sphery: is it not a problem at all – using the script http://mythtv.pastebin.com/NrwjiT30 – and put the output into a file i'll be able to parse with ruby and interpret wether tv is running or not ;)

[19:40:15]

sphery:

ok, maybe not the end of 0.23.0 (which was around r25397)

[19:41:58]

kth:

sphery: because i've a ruby script which checks next recording dates and shuts down computer when there is no recording within a time window it also calls my webserver on the net which then knows the next startup and is queried by my router which wakes up (WOL) my mythbox when needed ;)

[19:42:28]

sphery:

why not use the mythshutdown support?

[19:43:40]

kth:

sphery: does it shutdown after some idle? – then i've to put my script into this shutdown maybe ;)

[19:45:26]

sphery:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Shutdown_Wakeup + http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Wake-on-LAN + http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Mythshutdown + http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Mythwelcome

[19:46:17]

sphery:

+

[19:46:18]

sphery:

http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/20084

[19:46:38]

sphery:

heh, the enter keystroke happened before the X paste

[19:48:09]

sphery:

we need to get someone who knows all the different shutdown support to write up docs on it

[19:48:14]

kth:

sphery: wake up using internal clock doesnt work stable so i use wake on lan but because of this i need a device which knows the "wake up" plan and wakes up only if needed

[19:49:49]

sphery:

explaining the difference between "let the master backend shutdown/wake remove backends using wol", "let the master backend shut itself down using mythshutdown and ACPI wakeup", and "run mythwelcome to allow a combined frontend/backend to shut down"

[19:50:43]

sphery:

kth: since, TTBOMK, mythshutdown just calls your shutdown script, you could easily have that script send a message to some always-on system to tell it when to wake the master backend using wol

[19:51:10]

sphery:

then you don't have to rewrite all the code that handles all the different types of usage of a backend machine

[19:51:44]

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[19:51:49]

sphery:

and the remote backend shutdown/wakeup support already uses wol (from the master backend), so...

[19:52:23]

** sphery should figure out how it all works and write up pages called "Saving Power" **

[19:53:09]

sphery:

though I'm more likely to rewrite some of it to use system events for the shutdown handling

[19:55:41]

kth:

sphery: yes thats true – but with wagnerrp's tip about using telnet to frontend the ruby script just works and supports everything i need – maybe i've to document the complete scenario and give this scenario as an example to you ;) – i'm currently very surprised that it works so stable ;)

[19:59:11]

wagnerrp:

were you the one i was talking to about this over in #mythtv?

[19:59:54]

duffydack:

any way to stop it caching the livetv?

[20:00:04]

wagnerrp:

eh?

[20:00:21]

wagnerrp:

you mean... you dont want 'livetv' to be recorded to disk?

[20:00:44]

duffydack:

the channels I'm watching, parts get cached to disk

[20:00:52]

duffydack:

when not recording.

[20:01:03]

wagnerrp:

everything you watch gets recorded to disk

[20:01:15]

duffydack:

hm ok

[20:01:47]

wagnerrp:

are you saying it continues recording after you exit livetv?

[20:02:18]

wagnerrp:

as in the livetv session is not being torn down properly, and the backend continues recording in the background?

[20:03:08]

wagnerrp:

if youre just concerned about livetv sessions being stored to disk, that is a basic function of all PVRs

[20:03:28]

wagnerrp:

and further a requirement of the frontend/backend split of mythtv

[20:05:38]

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[20:07:47]

kormoc:

duffydack, http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Q . . . n_Live_TV.3F

[20:08:31]

duffydack:

no doesnt keep recording, just wanted to know if it HAD to record 'x' amount for rewind/forward functions. I just had this virtualbox vm running, 512meg ram with LAMP setup, wasnt doing anything but after I shut it down my tv stopped stuttering every so often..

[20:08:55]

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[20:08:57]

wagnerrp:

actaully, it records everything period

[20:08:58]

duffydack:

4gig ram 1.5gb in use, no swap..fast cpu, decent hd..

[20:09:02]

wagnerrp:

not just a rolling amount

[20:09:08]

duffydack:

ok, nevermind.

[20:09:08]

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[20:09:25]

wagnerrp:

it records an entire show, then cuts over to a new file for a new show

[20:09:39]

duffydack:

yeah, I see

[20:09:42]

wagnerrp:

exactly the same as a scheduled recording

[20:10:22]

duffydack:

its all pretty sick isnt it

[20:11:32]

wagnerrp:

you are running mythtv in virtualbox?

[20:11:33]

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[20:11:53]

duffydack:

no

[20:12:01]

duffydack:

I did try once tho :)

[20:12:52]

duffydack:

locked up scanning channels

[20:15:33]

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[20:26:37]

kormoc:

Beirdo, you still interested in some of my 1tb drives?

[20:27:19]

iamlindoro:

So that's what you kids call it these days

[20:27:31]

Beirdo:

kormoc: sure. :)

[20:27:53]

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[20:28:01]

** wagnerrp has no idea what iamlindoro could be referring to **

[20:28:17]

kormoc:

Beirdo, so I finally got the 2tbs ordered, they'll arrive tomorrow, figure the datacopy will run over the weekend, I should have around 7 1tb drives up for grabs middle of next week or so

[20:28:35]

Beirdo:

coool

[20:28:58]

Beirdo:

I look forward to it... once back from camping and all

[20:29:04]

kormoc:

kk

[20:29:10]

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[20:29:29]

wagnerrp:

kormoc: i was surprised how much more expensive the blacks were than the greens

[20:29:45]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, Yeah, it always shocks me too

[20:29:57]

kormoc:

and then the RE bump is even more shocking

[20:31:18]

sphery:

With the blacks, they have to add pigments to absorb all the different frequencies to get the labels right. With greens, they don't have to absorb the yellow, green, and blue freqs, so it's cheaper.

[20:31:48]

kormoc:

oh wow, never thought about it that way

[20:33:01]

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[20:33:16]

wagnerrp:

whats the difference between the RE4 and RE4-GP?

[20:33:26]

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[20:35:56]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, it's just a green with TLER

[20:36:30]

wagnerrp:

so it still has the same aggressive spindown?

[20:36:40]

kormoc:

afaik, yes

[20:36:44]

wagnerrp:

WTF

[20:36:58]

wagnerrp:

the 3TB drives still have the same 4K sectors with emulated 512b sectors

[20:37:11]

wagnerrp:

you cant even use the things on XP

[20:37:14]

kormoc:

they've been shrilling it as perfect for large data arrays where the majority of drives won't be active most of the time

[20:37:17]

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[20:37:24]

wagnerrp:

and everything else natively supports 4K sectors

[20:37:28]

kormoc:

for increased power savings (tm)(r)

[20:37:32]

wagnerrp:

why are they still doing that crap

[20:37:35]

** kormoc shrugs **

[20:39:25]

wagnerrp:

i also dont understand why they dont have more space than their previous versions

[20:39:38]

kormoc:

hrm?

[20:39:39]

wagnerrp:

its a denser, more space efficient packing

[20:39:48]

wagnerrp:

so the same platters should yield more space

[20:39:53]

kormoc:

ahh

[20:40:13]

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[20:40:13]

wagnerrp:

i cant believe they built new platters to use with them

[20:40:20]

kormoc:

they didn't afaik

[20:40:40]

kormoc:

I'm assuming it's just the standard WD drives of x have y sectors period

[20:40:41]

sphery:

the 4kb sectors are more space efficient?

[20:40:43]

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[20:40:45]

rhpot1991:

single tuner HDHR for $50 on woot.com right now

[20:40:46]

kormoc:

which is nice

[20:41:12]

kormoc:

sphery, the error correction is smaller on 4k then 8x 512 sectors

[20:41:25]

wagnerrp:

sphery: yeah, a CRC block for a single 4K sector doesnt need as much data for the same redundancy as that for 8x 512b sectors

[20:42:11]

wagnerrp:

it probably only amounts to a few percent difference

[20:42:19]

kormoc:

I think once a generation is only available in 4k sectors (or higher) then we'll see the increase

[20:42:19]

wagnerrp:

but on a 2TB drive, thats a hundred GB

[20:42:45]

sphery:

wagnerrp: btw, I got a samsung 2TB with 4kB sectors but that reports 512B sectors. Best way to align everything was to use a 56 sectors per track. Worked great--and even works with cfdisk

[20:42:46]

kormoc:

right now the drives should be to the byte same storage size across the offerings

[20:43:04]

sphery:

I'm considering moving all my WD Green data from disk to disk to allow reformatting them

[20:43:19]

sphery:

s/reformat/repartition/

[20:43:31]

kormoc:

sphery, notice a decent speed boost?

[20:43:58]

sphery:

I only used the WDs for a very shorty time mis-aligned

[20:44:28]

sphery:

and really only through mythbackend writing to them, so no real chance to notice speed differences

[20:44:39]

** kormoc nods **

[20:44:59]

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[20:45:00]

sphery:

the samsung I did properly in the first place--just because of info I got from you guys

[20:46:05]

sphery:

wagnerrp: but wouldn't the drive be sold having taken into account bytes for internal-usage purposes (CRC, set asides, etc.)

[20:46:19]

sphery:

meaning when you buy a disk with X bytes, it has X bytes

[20:46:47]

kormoc:

sphery, well, it's more that using a 750 gb platter, one drive has 512b sectors, one drive has 4k sectors, yet have the same byte amounts

[20:47:01]

kormoc:

sphery, WD enforces that so you can migrate between drives without worry

[20:47:07]

kormoc:

others, who knows

[20:47:08]

sphery:

ah, I see what you're saying

[20:47:26]

sphery:

I just assumed that the 4kB sector one has more set aside for bad blocks or whatever

[20:47:36]

kormoc:

yeah, it likely does

[20:47:50]

sphery:

after all, you'll likely need to move more stuff when that starts, right?

[20:47:56]

kormoc:

Aye

[20:48:04]

kormoc:

4k chunks rather then 512b chunks

[20:48:22]

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[20:48:28]

kormoc:

but it depends

[20:48:43]

wagnerrp:

ive got some pre-sorted mail to 'current resident' with no return address

[20:48:45]

kormoc:

if they packed the sectors the same hardware offsets, then it won't have extra space to relocate

[20:48:52]

kormoc:

wagnerrp, recycle!

[20:49:12]

Beirdo:

or reuse... as a torch.

[20:50:04]

wagnerrp:

bleh... magnetic refrigerator notepad from a realtor

[20:50:35]

sphery:

anyway, on the WD drive, I'm only planning on moving my 1.5TB so that I can repartition in such a way that all tools (cfdisk, fdisk, parted, ...) work with it. Currently, cfdisk yells because the numbers don't match up at the end of the partition

[20:52:09]

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[20:52:42]

sphery:

FATAL ERROR: Bad primary partition 0: Partition ends in the final partial cylinder

[20:52:46]

sphery:

that complaint

[20:53:30]

kormoc:

Least it doesn't say 'Resizing device to match reality'

[20:53:36]

sphery:

heh, yeah

[20:53:50]

sphery:

especially since "reality" is a lie, too--just like the cake

[20:54:04]

kormoc:

yup

[20:57:25]

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[20:57:46]

skd5aner:

you mean... the /cake/ is a /lie/?!

[20:57:52]

wagnerrp:

Beirdo: that sure looks familiar... http://www.silentpcreview.com/Silent_Home_Ser . . . ide/Case_PSU

[20:58:33]

** kormoc eyes another mac mini **

[20:58:35]

Baylink:

Y'all say the WD 3TB announcement today, right?

[20:58:50]

kormoc:

Baylink, today? you mean a few days ago? ;P

[20:58:57]

Baylink:

Someone needs to update the Large Disk HOWTO to encompass the 2.19TB limit.

[20:58:58]

skd5aner:

Baylink: yesterday

[20:59:01]

Baylink:

I saw it last night.

[20:59:08]

sphery:

kormoc: you should consider getting an Atom--I hear it's more power-efficient

[20:59:19]

bjd:

;)

[20:59:20]

wagnerrp:

Baylink: perhaps someone will once those are actually available

[20:59:24]

Beirdo:

wagnerrp: yes it does

[20:59:27]

kormoc:

sphery, ooh really? I guess that settles it! Atom here I come!

[20:59:30]

sphery:

skd5aner: um, no, it's not a lie...

[20:59:32]

Beirdo:

same one I have, but that one's red

[20:59:37]

wagnerrp:

right now, its only USB available, which bypasses the whole issue

[20:59:39]

Beirdo:

and there's no vibrations in mine

[20:59:47]

Beirdo:

dunno what those people did

[21:00:07]

wagnerrp:

looks like the same board too

[21:00:12]

kormoc:

Beirdo, they threw a handful of nuts into the case

[21:00:32]

sphery:

Baylink: yeah, it seems the new AHCI driver only works on Win XP 64-bit, right?

[21:00:43]

sphery:

the one they released with it

[21:00:52]

skd5aner:

I need to build a new frontend, but size and noise are not an issue – price and performance is however – but I only ever see advice for sff frontends anymore

[21:01:09]

Beirdo:

if they wanna complain about loose drive cages... tighten the screws properly, people

[21:01:15]

Baylink:

Something like that; they're shipping it with an HBA, too, cause *that* has drivers.

[21:01:19]

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[21:01:27]

wagnerrp:

skd5aner: then you shouldnt really need a guide for that

[21:01:33]

skd5aner:

:)

[21:01:43]

skd5aner:

nope ;)

[21:01:55]

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[21:03:09]

sphery:

Baylink: so is there a bios limit involved? if so, does it affect Linux or does Linux still circumvent the BIOS for even the new AHCI stuff

[21:03:24]

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[21:03:47]

Baylink:

I gather there is a BIOS limit, and there's a *separate* wire compatibility issue.

[21:04:01]

sphery:

wire-compatibility?

[21:04:04]

Baylink:

Some older SATA Host Adapters won't talk to it.

[21:04:05]

sphery:

oh...

[21:04:07]

sphery:

wow

[21:04:14]

sphery:

funny

[21:04:16]

Baylink:

It was a consumer newspiece.

[21:04:17]

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[21:04:49]

Baylink:

That's not new: I just had to hang my sisters new 2GB Hitach on a PCI controller cause the Mobo identified it, but refused to *read* it. MSI KT6V

[21:05:00]

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[21:06:10]

sphery:

hmmm... I have a WD 2TB that didn't work with my PCI SATA card.

[21:06:13]

sphery:

wonder if that's why

[21:06:17]

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[21:06:33]

sphery:

no big deal--I just stuck it in the mbe with SATA on mobo

[21:07:17]

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[21:10:07]

Baylink:

Incidentally, that was the first time I *ever* had to label drives for fstab: they jumped all over hell every time I booted.

[21:10:35]

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[21:10:59]

Baylink:

I decline to put UUIDs in fstab; they're ridiculously long and unreadable, and have way too much potential entropy — if you make a typo in a human readable label *anyone* will generally be able to tell.

[21:11:07]

Baylink:

With a UUID, even you won't.

[21:12:23]

wagnerrp:

Baylink: my server auto-detects and mounts my partitions

[21:12:30]

sphery:

I've always wondered how much leeway the -U in mke2fs gives you--if you could make it a human-readable name or would be limited to things like DEAD-BEEF-...

[21:12:31]

wagnerrp:

no fstab needed

[21:12:36]

Baylink:

Yep; that's what we're talking about. :-)

[21:12:52]

Baylink:

UUIDs muct be HEX, and would be checked, I suspect.

[21:13:03]

Baylink:

They're not stored as ASCII, they're stored as packed HEX

[21:13:17]

sphery:

makes sense

[21:13:20]

Baylink:

"no fstab needed". Huh?

[21:13:41]

wagnerrp:

no, the partiton 'knows' where it is supposed to be mounted

[21:14:07]

Baylink:

You have a mount -a command that scans the partitions for a mount point?

[21:14:16]

Baylink:

Whence?

[21:14:20]

wagnerrp:

no, kernel does it automatically

[21:14:46]

Baylink:

Nothing I've ever heard of, and I've been getting paid to admin *nix boxes for 25 years.

[21:15:19]

Baylink:

You have no /etc/fstab? Or you have one and it's empty?

[21:15:25]

Baylink:

Or something else?

[21:15:35]

wagnerrp:

i have one, only used to mount the swap space

[21:16:08]

Baylink:

I would like to know how that's being done. Which distro? I'm almost sure that's actually something your distro has wrapped around the kernel.

[21:16:11]

sphery:

shouldn't swap be the easiest one to script an auto-identification?

[21:16:27]

wagnerrp:

using ZFS

[21:16:43]

wagnerrp:

completely certain its nothing 'wrapped around the kernel'

[21:17:06]

sphery:

ah, yeah, zfs... the one that Oracle is trying to take back

[21:18:28]

wagnerrp:

volumes get metadata that defines their type (single,jbod,mirror,stripe,...) and name

[21:18:46]

wagnerrp:

partitions within the volume get various information about usage options, mountpoint, ...

[21:19:54]

Baylink:

Yeah, it's *the zfs control binary* wrapped around the kernel. :-)

[21:20:21]

wagnerrp:

well.. its in the kernel, its not wrapped around anything

[21:20:35]

wagnerrp:

the 'control binary' is just used to edit the behavior

[21:20:39]

wagnerrp:

not to apply it

[21:21:22]

Baylink:

The mount(2) call requires that the user program supply a device and a mount point (and an fstype, I think).

[21:21:48]

wagnerrp:

i dont use mount

[21:22:26]

wagnerrp:

unless youre saying the kernel module runs that call internally

[21:22:35]

Baylink:

I'm going to shut up until I know what I'm talking about, but that's not the way I've seen filesystem mounting typically be designed on *nix.

[21:22:50]

wagnerrp:

no its not, ill agree with you there

[21:23:35]

Baylink:

Course, AIX (from IBM, we call it "aches") isn't, either; it's a think Unix skin atop what actually looks a lot like... VM?

[21:24:01]

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[21:24:52]

wagnerrp:

now that i think about it, i should probably disable compression in the log cycler

[21:25:02]

wagnerrp:

since the partition itself is compressed

[21:25:51]

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[21:26:08]

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[21:27:10]

Baylink:

Your boot partition is on compressed ZFS?

[21:27:21]

wagnerrp:

no, /var/log is

[21:27:24]

Baylink:

Ah

[21:27:45]

Baylink:

I was going to call you the Bravest Man Ever. I won't even put boot/roots on ext4 yet.

[21:28:08]

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[21:34:06]

wagnerrp:

heh... "zroot/var/log compressratio 7.89x"

[21:35:34]

Beirdo:

nice

[21:35:46]

Beirdo:

disk is cheaper than CPU though, no?

[21:36:12]

wagnerrp:

yeah, well it was already bzipping on top of that

[21:36:17]

wagnerrp:

now, its not doing both

[21:36:35]

peitolm:

it's actually faster (wrt throughput) to compress on the fly, less written to disk

[21:36:52]

wagnerrp:

depends on the data

[21:37:30]

peitolm:

i think it's still a win for most workloads

[21:37:41]

** peitolm happens to have turned on compression for his video store **

[21:38:18]

iamlindoro:

That's about the least likely to be helped by it

[21:38:28]

peitolm:

but then, the video store is a second storage pool, and the ccopy over is async, i just wish it wouldn't drag the machine to the gutter due to nfs

[21:38:29]

Beirdo:

wagnerrp: one good thing with that review...

[21:38:41]

Beirdo:

now I know what CPU fan to use should I replace the stock one

[21:38:48]

wagnerrp:

yeah, i doubt you even get a hundredth of a percent necessary for it to show up

[21:38:51]

peitolm:

iamlindoro: indeed, i thought I'd give it a go and see

[21:39:16]

skd5aner:

I can't imagine you'd get much out of compressing your video store except more CPU usage?

[21:39:33]

iamlindoro:

pretty much

[21:39:44]

wagnerrp:

CABAC in h264 is pretty good, and MPEG2 just doesnt compress well anyway

[21:40:54]

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[21:43:19]

peitolm:

actually, i'm getting something

[21:43:45]

peitolm:

just trying to get the info

[21:44:12]

wagnerrp:

zfs get compressratio <partition>

[21:44:59]

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[21:45:10]

wagnerrp:

that reminds me though, i had forgotten to turn on rotation for my backend

[21:45:15]

wagnerrp:

780MB and counting

[21:45:16]

peitolm:

wagnerrp: compression was only turned on a couple of hours ago, and there was already 1.4TB of recordings in it

[21:45:33]

peitolm:

so ratio is going to be screwy

[21:45:45]

wagnerrp:

it only compresses as it writes

[21:45:53]

wagnerrp:

so that old data will never be compressed

[21:45:59]

wagnerrp:

not that it would likely be so anyway

[21:46:13]

peitolm:

indeed, and compress ratio is going to be on the whole dataset

[21:46:53]

peitolm:

I have 2 recordings that were written once compression was turned on, i'm just copying them to an uncompressed dataset to compare

[21:47:32]

wagnerrp:

doesnt a HUP tell mythbackend to re-open the log files?

[21:48:00]

wagnerrp:

ah, there it goes

[21:48:02]

peitolm:

mythbackend <foo> where foo is a signel isn't it

[21:48:12]

peitolm:

spelt correctly obviously

[21:48:17]

peitolm:

there's an option for it

[21:50:33]

Baylink:

peitolm: Since what you're storing is MPEG compressed video, disk compression is *guaranteed* to be worse than useless; no recorded exceptions. ;-)

[21:51:01]

wagnerrp:

heh

[21:51:09]

peitolm:

oooh, that sounds like a red rag to a bull

[21:51:09]

Baylink:

You will try to compress each block, fail, store it uncompressed, and have wasted time.

[21:51:12]

wagnerrp:

entropy is so high, the added wrapping just increases file size?

[21:51:14]

Baylink:

Yep. :-)

[21:51:18]

Baylink:

Been doing this for 20 years.

[21:51:50]

Baylink:

Compression sucks out redundancy. Already compressed material *has no redundancy*, by definition.

[21:53:45]

sphery:

so, wait, you're saying my mythconverg-1254–20101020034217.tar.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz 2.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz2.bz2 isn't actually 15 times smaller than mythconverg-1254–20101020034217.tar.bz2 would have been?

[21:53:54]

sphery:

:)

[21:54:12]

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[21:54:45]

skd5aner:

nope, it's 14x smaller ;)

[21:54:50]

** sphery tries mythconverg-1254–20101020034217.tar.gz.bz2.xz.gz.bz2.xz.gz.bz2.xz.gz.bz2.x z.gz.bz2.xz **

[21:55:04]

sphery:

heh, yeah, I can't count

[21:58:57]

peitolm:

so, i have some interesting news, compression does work

[21:59:12]

** kormoc sits down with a coffee **

[21:59:18]

kormoc:

Tell me more? How does that make you feel?

[21:59:31]

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[22:00:00]

peitolm:

http://pastebin.com/2rsrc63i

[22:00:27]

peitolm:

just running an md5sum of each file to verify they're the same

[22:01:40]

peitolm:

takes a while to md5sum a 2.8gish file

[22:02:48]

peitolm:

http://pastebin.com/sQVG74bi

[22:02:54]

peitolm:

md5 says they're the same

[22:04:17]

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[22:04:21]

duffydack:

I got myth to play audio for tv and system sounds (buntu and pulse), but the audio is delayed a little. was worth a try.

[22:05:07]

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[22:06:40]

peitolm:

Baylink: I'd agree that trying to losslessly compress an already losslessly compress file would be silly, (especially with the same compression method), but it doesn't hold that a lossly compressed file can't be futher compressed

[22:07:37]

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[22:18:23]

Baylink:

Mostly, it does, yeah, cause the entropy level is still going to be maximal, even if data was thrown out before compression.

[22:20:49]

peitolm:

well, that 2.8 gig file seems to to have compressed to around 82% of original size, so I'll call it a win, I'll keep an eye on it, I'm sure that ratio will vary, but that box has spare CPU cycles, so..

[22:21:34]

Baylink:

Hope it has a lot. :-)

[22:21:48]

Baylink:

That's amazing, BTW; never see that big a pick-up on recompression

[22:23:50]

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[22:24:02]

peitolm:

i forget what the default zfs compression method is

[22:26:45]

luker:

[22:27:23]

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[22:27:24]

peitolm:

Baylink: if you can see an error with my testing, please let me know

[22:28:00]

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[22:29:01]

luker:

I used synaptic to look for updates. Both mythtv-backend and mythtv-frontend are installed in version 0.23.0+fixes24158–0ubuntu2.

[22:29:31]

luker:

Is that the latest stable release or do I have to go with the mentiones web site pointing at some .deb file?

[22:29:50]

sphery:

luker: http://www.mythbuntu.org/auto-builds

[22:29:57]

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[22:29:58]

sphery:

you want the 0.23 or 0.23.1 version

[22:30:08]

sphery:

not the unstable/development/trunk/0.24 one

[22:30:24]

sphery:

actually, for that particular problem--channel scanning--you /need/ 0.23.1

[22:31:16]

sphery:

don't know if auto-builds distinguishes between 0.23 and 0.23.1, though

[22:31:22]

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[22:32:38]

luker:

Ok, I open the url with firefox, select "Activate Autobuild" and do what with mythbuntu-repos.deb?

[22:32:48]

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[22:33:00]

sphery:

that I don't know

[22:33:03]

luker:

Open with GDebi or save and do some other task later?

[22:33:25]

kenni:

open with GDebi

[22:34:03]

sphery:

thanks, kenni --I was in over my head

[22:34:09]

sphery:

all I know about mythbuntu is the link to that page :)

[22:34:11]

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[22:34:16]

kenni:

;)

[22:35:46]

kenni:

I'm off again, it's late here

[22:35:54]

luker:

Would I like to activate the testing PPA? And, forgive my lack of knowledge, what is PPA?

[22:36:23]

sphery:

isn't testing the unstable/development/trunk one?

[22:36:58]

sphery:

luker: click on FAQ

[22:37:03]

sphery:

on http://www.mythbuntu.org/auto-builds

[22:37:21]

sphery:

I stand corrected about testing PPA

[22:40:58]

luker:

Seems like I don't want to activate testing PPA.

[22:42:11]

tgm4883:

testing ppa has very little stuff in it

[22:42:16]

tgm4883:

non-mythtv stuff only

[22:42:31]

tgm4883:

but you might see a newer build of mythbuntu-* packages

[22:43:35]

tgm4883:

ie. mythbuntu-log-grabber

[22:51:50]

luker:

I installed another repository, I guess. I then updated to mythtv 0.23.1+fixes26863–0ubuntu0+mythbuntu2

[22:52:02]

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[22:52:08]

luker:

Repeating channel scan.

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