MythLogBot@irc.freenode.net :: #mythtv-users

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Sunday, May 24th, 2009, 00:01 UTC
[00:01:53] mchou: not to mention there is a backup binary copy that can always be restored
[00:03:33] Slim-Kimbo (Slim-Kimbo!n=Kimbo@host86-150-234-181.range86-150.btcentralplus.com) has quit ()
[00:06:35] squish102: thanks sphery and mchou
[00:07:07] squish102: would i have a problem moving from mythbackend 18207 to 19961 ?
[00:07:46] sphery: no, going up is fine
[00:07:50] sphery: going down doesn't work
[00:08:03] sphery: also, make sure they're both 0.21-fixes
[00:08:11] squish102: ok thanks, going to follow that link above
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[00:08:14] sphery: (i.e. don't accidentally upgrade to unstable/development/trunk)
[00:08:25] squish102: no, they both fixes
[00:08:36] sphery: the most important thing, though, is to make sure you do the hostname thing right--like wagnerrp warned
[00:09:03] sphery: ideally, you won't change the hostname of the system on which the backend process is running
[00:09:07] squish102: ok, going to figure out how to change new machines hostname now quick
[00:09:19] sphery: so if you move it to a different computer, swap the hostnames on the 2 computers
[00:09:30] sphery: cool
[00:09:32] sphery: that will work
[00:09:43] squish102: oh, wait, i built the 2nd machine with the same hostname
[00:09:52] sphery: that makes it easy, then
[00:09:55] squish102: how about ip address concerns?
[00:10:06] squish102: should i try get it to the same address?
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[00:10:21] mchou: same address is better
[00:10:32] sphery: assuming the IP address changes, just start mythtv-setup before starting the backend on the new system and change the master backend IP address
[00:10:32] wagnerrp: if you change IPs, just open up mythtv setup, first page of the first section
[00:10:35] sphery: but same is easier
[00:10:53] sphery: wagnerrp is much faster at answering than I am :)
[00:11:05] squish102: ok, i'm all for making it easier... i have a challenge going from nvidia to ati too
[00:11:16] mchou: hell no
[00:11:21] squish102: and that is going to suck
[00:11:22] mchou: ati
[00:11:37] squish102: yes yes yes... i know... setting myself up to fail
[00:11:41] mchou: solve the asti issues first
[00:11:46] mchou: ati*
[00:12:07] mchou: otherwise you have 2 borked mythboxen
[00:12:16] mchou: none working
[00:12:18] squish102: i think it is working, not sure if the backup restore will overwrite any settings, although all i want is the recordings
[00:12:20] mchou: ==suckage
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[00:13:23] sphery: xris: pulseaudio stuff?
[00:25:49] sid3windr: goddamnit
[00:25:57] sid3windr: why does all this integration stuff have to be complicated
[00:26:10] sid3windr: linux should just do HDMI CEC or my tv should just turn off when the hdmi goes away
[00:26:23] sid3windr: or samsung should give me a control port
[00:26:36] sid3windr: or as a final option I'll have to shell out for yet another ir blaster :/
[00:26:38] clever: my tv turns off after 10min of no signal
[00:26:45] sid3windr: I haven't waited that long
[00:26:52] sid3windr: it's in the bedroom and lights up the place
[00:27:03] clever: mine will threaten me with a 10min countdown and a 'no signal' message
[00:27:07] kormoc: So give the tv to me, I'd be happy to use it
[00:27:21] sid3windr: hell no, I just installed it this afternoon =)
[00:27:30] sid3windr: 40" lcd replacing a 24" monitor
[00:27:35] sid3windr: the monitor however did turn off by itself ;/
[00:27:41] sid3windr: (well, duh, because it's not a tv)
[00:27:44] clever: get a relay:P
[00:27:54] clever: cut the power to the sucker directly!
[00:28:04] sid3windr: yeah, I actually have a usb controllable power socket thing
[00:28:06] sid3windr: but meh.
[00:28:14] sid3windr: stuff really shouldn't be all that complicated ;/
[00:28:26] sid3windr: specs for my tv say it's got an rs232 somewhere.
[00:28:29] sid3windr: except it doesn't!
[00:28:37] sid3windr: unless I have to open it up first, which kind of is not what I want anyway
[00:28:51] sid3windr: so HDMI CEC seems the way to go, except nothing actually supports it
[00:29:13] mchou: sid3windr: you can always return the TV
[00:29:23] sid3windr: no, I can't
[00:29:26] mchou: get another one that turns off
[00:29:32] sid3windr: and this is not enough of a stumbling block to return it either ;)
[00:29:55] sid3windr: anything remotely in the same category is 150 euro more expensive than this one
[00:30:09] mchou: you get what you pay for :)
[00:30:16] sid3windr: I'll rather spend E15 on an irblaster and a week or 2 configuring the blaster ;)
[00:30:21] mchou: lol
[00:30:37] sid3windr: well, it's a 40" samsung full hd for 620 eur
[00:30:43] sid3windr: that's pretty cheap this side of the pond
[00:30:48] mchou: being cheap doesnt always save you money
[00:31:13] sid3windr: image is great, has dvb-c and dvb-t tuners
[00:31:15] sid3windr: 3 hdmi etc
[00:31:17] sid3windr: I like it :)
[00:31:28] sid3windr: If only it would turn off!
[00:31:29] sid3windr: ;)
[00:31:49] sid3windr: I'm determined to [have someone] find the rs232 port [for me] !
[00:32:04] wagnerrp: is your power button set up to standby the mythbox or something?
[00:32:12] sphery: sid3windr: your instruction manual doesn't have serial codes for your TV?
[00:32:24] sphery: oh, no port?
[00:32:25] wagnerrp: sphery: he cant even find the port
[00:32:34] clever: my tv has a special jvc port, but no info at all on how it works
[00:32:43] clever: it just magicaly works when connected to other jvc products
[00:32:49] sphery: mine (which is an older Samsung DLP) came with serial port and serial codes
[00:32:52] clever: doesnt realy say what it even does
[00:32:54] wagnerrp: yeah, sony does that with 's-link'
[00:32:54] sid3windr: yeah, no port
[00:33:00] sid3windr: it says "rs232 for service purposes"
[00:33:12] sid3windr: clever: over hdmi?
[00:33:18] sid3windr: owait, you don't have modern hardware :]
[00:33:27] sid3windr: anyway, over hdmi that's called CEC
[00:33:32] clever: sid3windr: its an SDTV
[00:33:44] sid3windr: samsung calls it anynet+, most others have other names, but it's the same thing ;)
[00:33:47] clever: pure analog
[00:34:16] sid3windr: now, others have discovered the "rs232 for service" can actually control the tv... using a serial cable for an older samsung camera or so
[00:34:27] sid3windr: if I would be able to find the damn connector I'd buy such a cable ($12)
[00:34:37] clever: my jcv tv has a headphone like connector
[00:34:52] clever: and ive got a realy old camera that uses headphone->db9 for downloading images
[00:35:33] sid3windr: yeah, that's the thing. minijack.
[00:35:45] clever: except with the camera, its normal headphone size
[00:35:52] clever: i think ive even used it with a headphone extension before
[00:36:04] clever: but the jcv is a notch smaller
[00:36:23] wagnerrp: sounds like s-link
[00:37:07] sid3windr: samsung calls it "ex-link"
[00:37:11] sid3windr: so yea, probably
[00:37:13] clever: i do have a sony stereo/dvdplayer/amp
[00:37:46] sid3windr: http://av.samsung.de/produkte/detail2_specs.a . . . 2f706dcbdc1d <- rs232 (for customer service) : yes
[00:37:50] sid3windr: ;/
[00:38:08] clever: the one on the tv is 'av compulink III'
[00:38:57] clever: gives alot of hits on google
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[00:39:45] clever: 'All matching A/V Compu Link components are designed to "power up" and switch to the correct input anytime you play a DVD, video tape, CD, cassette, or even when you simply want to watch television.'
[00:40:08] clever: that would help some, im allways using both remotes to do the simplest things
[00:40:43] iamlindoro: sid3windr, http://rainshadowtech.com/default_files/HDMICECUSB.htm
[00:40:53] sid3windr: yeah
[00:40:55] sid3windr: I saw that
[00:41:06] sid3windr: but it's not totally clear to me if that sits in between your hdmi or something
[00:41:10] sid3windr: + it costs $99
[00:41:17] sid3windr: which is a bit much imo =)
[00:41:32] sid3windr: maybe not for what it does, but for me personally
[00:41:32] iamlindoro: It doesn't sit between anything, it would take up an HDMI port
[00:41:55] iamlindoro: would appear to the PC as a serial interface, and with the accompanying documentation you could write CEC commands to the device
[00:42:01] sid3windr: yeah
[00:42:11] sid3windr: but I'd want the tv to switch to the hdmi input the pc is connected to
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[00:42:15] clever: and what if the tv doesnt happen to be on the right input:S
[00:42:17] sid3windr: I'm not sure if that would work
[00:42:21] wagnerrp: oof... just rescanned mythvideo on the backend without thinking of the consequences
[00:42:28] sid3windr: I mean I can see it saying "hi, I'm here" and the tv switching to that
[00:42:30] sid3windr: but there'd be nothing to see
[00:42:40] iamlindoro: sid3windr, No, that's not how it works
[00:43:05] sid3windr: depends – cec has a "switch to me" call .. don't know if it has a "switch to someone else" call?
[00:43:13] iamlindoro: CEC is a control scheme, you see (and control) *all* things on the CEC bus
[00:43:17] sid3windr: aha.
[00:43:40] iamlindoro: Each has an address, and you pass a command and a destination onto the bus to control it
[00:44:02] iamlindoro: See documentation: http://rainshadowtech.com/downloads/HDMICECtoUSB.htm
[00:44:49] sid3windr: yeah it's dawning on me now
[00:45:05] iamlindoro: See for example the example script at the bottom to control a samsung
[00:45:08] sid3windr: I code the script to it says it's on physical address 1 (hdmi port 1 where the tv is connected), even though the box is on hdmi 2
[00:45:20] sid3windr: er, s/tv/pc/
[00:46:26] sid3windr: but I would basically be spending $99+shipping to be able to set my own OSD name, getting the pc to source the dvi as input and MAYBE turning it off and on
[00:46:32] sid3windr: (if one would figure out the commands to do so)
[00:46:38] sid3windr: (and it accepts cec in standby)
[00:46:57] iamlindoro: The comply with the spec, it almost certainly must
[00:47:27] iamlindoro: There'd be no point if it didn't, since the idea is that, for example, you put a disk in your Blu ray drive, and the amp turns on, TV turns on, and they set to the right inputs automatically
[00:47:35] sid3windr: yup, true
[00:47:53] sid3windr: but then I wonder if you have to set the physical port in the bluray player
[00:48:00] sid3windr: or how does it know =)
[00:48:21] sid3windr: I mean , if it's a all-system-wide bus, then the tv does not know where it came from
[00:48:25] iamlindoro: Because it's basically networking, no need to tell it what physical port, each device knows its own ports
[00:48:33] sid3windr: hmm
[00:48:33] iamlindoro: sure it does, just like a series of network switches
[00:48:37] sid3windr: true.
[00:48:40] iamlindoro: "Who has Device 5?"
[00:48:43] iamlindoro: "I do!"
[00:48:44] sid3windr: hehe
[00:48:48] sid3windr: high definition arp
[00:48:48] iamlindoro: pass packet
[00:48:58] sid3windr: anyway, meh
[00:49:02] sid3windr: it's the best solution.
[00:49:07] sid3windr: also the most expensive one =)
[00:49:46] iamlindoro: Someone with real knowledge of the CEC spec could probably make Myth do some neat stuff with it
[00:50:03] sid3windr: yeah I saw the question come up in google attached to mythtv many times
[00:50:24] sid3windr: but you'd need an nvidia card with hdmi, and possibly a CEC chip or possibly just driver support
[00:50:33] sid3windr: then a driver interface in linux, then myth support
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[01:09:20] iamlindoro: Heh, Dell dumped that "Della" women's site crap after 10 days
[01:17:16] ** kormoc raises an eyebrow **
[01:19:41] iamlindoro: kormoc, You never saw it? A totally pandering site "for women" by Dell
[01:20:01] kormoc: Totally missed out on that gem
[01:20:11] iamlindoro: http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/22/dell-dumps . . . -be-friends/
[01:21:21] kormoc: Weird, I'd think that wouldn't have been a entirely bad marketing move
[01:22:23] iamlindoro: In my one visit to the site, it came across as incredibly sexist, but that may have been fueled by reading some of the publicity/press releases
[01:22:55] kormoc: It is a fine line to tread, but if done right and if the harms already done, might as well fix it
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[01:24:00] RyeBrye is now known as LinuxTorvalds
[01:24:12] LinuxTorvalds is now known as RyeBrye
[01:24:46] ** kormoc eyes RyeBrye **
[01:24:50] iamlindoro: Ah, the secret is out
[01:25:15] iamlindoro: Eye'm Leenus Toorvolts and I pronoonce it leenoocks
[01:25:57] iamlindoro: http://www.jx90.com/download/torvalds-says-linux.wav
[01:25:59] ** wagnerrp wonders if RyeBrye thinks he's actually named 'Linux' **
[01:27:02] RyeBrye: I was joking in another chan
[01:27:34] kormoc: We all know that Linus Torvalds stole Linux from Linux Trovalds....
[01:29:20] RyeBrye: and Linux Torvalds worked for SCO
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[01:31:22] squish102: sphery, do u have that link again to the upgrade script please?
[01:31:40] squish102: i did the upgrade and restore but backend wont start and i lost the wiki page
[01:32:17] squish102: although backup and partial restore looked to complete successfully :(
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[01:35:04] sphery: squish102: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Database_Backup_and_Restore
[01:35:26] sphery: squish102: what's the error in the mythbackend log file when it fails to start?
[01:36:33] squish102: thanks sphery, and the error is "No current database version. Auto upgrading"
[01:36:54] squish102: and "Told to create a NEW database schema, but the database
[01:36:55] squish102: already has 95 tables."
[01:38:08] sphery: squish102: did you do the full restore?
[01:38:13] squish102: i didn't read page well enough
[01:38:20] squish102: no i did a partial
[01:38:51] squish102: but looks like i should have dropped database, run setup, and then done the partial restore with plugins
[01:38:55] sphery: which partial? with plugin data?
[01:39:22] sphery: right...
[01:39:22] squish102: yes
[01:39:36] sphery: so that's why you have no schema version--you have no settings table
[01:39:46] sphery: if you start mythbackend, it will create it
[01:40:48] squish102: i am trying to start mythbackend, and that is when i get the error
[01:41:17] squish102: looks like settings table is gone
[01:41:55] squish102: gonna wipe out schema, do mythsetup, start and stop backend and then do restore... hope that sounds about right
[01:42:09] squish102: opps, create schema as 2nd step
[01:43:04] sphery: yeah, drop database, run mc.sql, mythtv-setup (or just mythbackend), but /also/ start mythfrontend to create plugin tables
[01:44:30] wagnerrp: oof... rails application error
[01:44:43] sphery: tmdb?
[01:45:01] wagnerrp: uh huh
[01:46:30] squish102: ohhh, i always get caught at the mythtv@localhost being denied :(
[01:47:07] sphery: squish102: might want to run the restore script with --verbose just to get all the messages
[01:47:41] squish102: i am going to try without the partial
[01:47:44] clever: it seems fairly obvious that its the mysql permisions, not the contents of the db you just blew away
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[01:48:20] sphery: squish102: yeah, if the hostnames aren't changing, the partial is really not necessary
[01:48:27] sphery: (just makes you have to reconfigure everything)
[01:48:56] squish102: ok, thanks, let me go figure out why how i hosed the setup :)
[01:49:28] sphery: if you do a full restore, it will bring back all your configuration
[01:49:37] sphery: if it was broken before, you'll have to fix it :(
[01:50:10] clever: i never blow it all away, i just track the problem down
[01:50:35] wagnerrp: you know, i would be more willing to work on TMDB if the site werent so damned slow
[01:50:45] squish102: i dropped database and ran my.sql
[01:52:42] squish102: so does my.sql only create database?
[01:53:06] sphery: wagnerrp: yeah, I hope that they and SD come to an agreement on the legality of the posters/covers and SD can help host--would be much better with more server/bandwidth
[01:53:47] wagnerrp: i dont think its really bandwidth at all, just server capacity
[01:53:57] sphery: Oh, and the poster-morphing in javascript doesn't help, either (once you get the page downloaded)
[01:54:37] sphery: better than some sites, though--it doesn't completely lock up my machine (only for about 0.5 seconds every 5 seconds)
[01:55:03] sphery: almost getting to the point where just using the web requires having proprietary drivers...
[01:55:20] sphery: (video drivers, that is)
[01:56:09] sphery: squish102: mc.sql creates the database, but no schema... mythtv-setup or mythbackend creates the schema
[01:58:59] squish102: thanks, it looks like i have the schema and everything, restore script is having problems... still cannot connect with mysql -umythtv -p mythconverg :(
[01:59:37] squish102: access is denied again for mythtv@localhost... still working through that error
[01:59:57] sphery: try mysql -h<hostname> -umythtv -p mythconverg
[02:02:06] squish102: same thing now it has a "Access denied for user 'mythtv'@'mythtv102.local'
[02:03:13] sphery: on the new database server, you'll need to set the appropriate permissions
[02:03:27] sphery: http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-6.html#ss6.2
[02:03:32] sphery: the Modifying access to the MySQL database for multiple systems section
[02:05:11] squish102: ok thanks... it is wierd because mythtv-setup works just fine
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[02:06:07] sphery: sure you're using the right password, then?
[02:06:18] troldrik: WHY is trunk mythvideo adding my filesystem / to it's search path?
[02:06:36] troldrik: 'MythVideo: Adding MediaMonitor device: /'
[02:07:16] wagnerrp: is that what it defaults to if you dont properly give it a storage group?
[02:07:29] troldrik: Then it proceeds to gobble up 1.7GiB of memory and gets it to near OOM.
[02:08:39] sphery: or maybe that's what happens when you specify a directory in a storage group that is the mount point for the filesystem (remember reading about some problem that had similar consequences when that was done, but don't remember details)
[02:09:10] heyheyhey: wagnerrp still have that hdd problem
[02:09:26] wagnerrp: there is no job 'writer' on tmdb?
[02:09:28] squish102: thanks sphery, i seem to be moving forward again
[02:09:31] sphery: all of your storage group directories should be subdirectories under mount points--i.e. if you mount the filesystem at /srv/mythtv/video, then specify /srv/mythtv/video/somesubdirectory for the directory in the storage group and not /srv/mythtv/video
[02:09:36] sphery: squish102: great
[02:10:21] k-man: i have this problem since upgrading to fixes, where the first time i watch tv or a recording it works fine, the second time i watch something, i get a black screen, but I can hear the audio
[02:10:22] squish102: well i thought i was... same place again after a partial restore
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[02:10:45] sphery: k-man: change your playback profile to not use OpenGL renderer
[02:10:55] k-man: sphery: already tried that
[02:10:55] sphery: squish102: the no schema version thing?
[02:10:59] wagnerrp: heyheyhey: if youre not going to state your problem, you cant get help
[02:11:05] squish102: yes sphery
[02:11:14] sphery: k-man: my recommendation is to change the playback profile group to (the default configuration of) Slim
[02:11:43] sphery: that one does not use OpenGL--if that works, your profile was probably using OpenGL (possibly because of fallbacks)
[02:12:02] sphery: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Playback_profiles describes how to reset your profiles if you've edited them
[02:12:02] k-man: sphery: ok, ill try that
[02:12:03] k-man: thanks
[02:12:07] heyheyhey: sorry wagnerrp well mythtv when it loads it takes 18 mins to come up
[02:12:12] k-man: sphery: never edited them
[02:12:23] sphery: squish102: same number of tables? 95?
[02:12:43] k-man: sphery: ah, that seems to have fixed it
[02:12:45] wagnerrp: oh, when mythvideo opens, right
[02:12:50] troldrik: sphery: mythvideo is set to look in /home/cbaoth/Videos... /home/cbaoth is nfs mounted.
[02:12:54] k-man: can I just stick with "slim"
[02:12:57] sphery: k-man: yeah, fallbacks can be confusing in playback profiles
[02:13:07] sphery: k-man: I use slim
[02:13:14] squish102: sphery, i was playing nice in mythtv-setup and mythfrontend, then i did the partial restore and got the same number 96
[02:13:16] sphery: slim ftw!
[02:13:28] squish102: oh wait, i got 96 this time
[02:13:29] k-man: thanks sphery
[02:13:40] squish102: last time i had 95
[02:14:20] sphery: troldrik: that means it's probably not the thing I half remembered
[02:14:23] squish102: ok, i am going to go through all the steps again... i must have screwed something up.
[02:14:38] sphery: squish102: why not just do the full restore since you have the same hostname?
[02:14:52] squish102: sphery, ok will do that
[02:15:00] troldrik: sphery: well I don't have any storage groups setup... 0.21 config I've just upgrade.
[02:15:03] troldrik: dd
[02:15:04] troldrik: upgraded*
[02:15:38] sphery: for that, just drop db, run mc.sql, restore db, then start mythbackend (or go to mythtv-setup, first, to verify settings if you like) and mythfrontend
[02:15:42] sphery: squish102: ^^^
[02:16:18] sphery: troldrik: try fixing your storage groups... that might fix it
[02:16:29] sphery: mythtv-setup to fix storage groups
[02:16:37] sphery: make sure all specified directories exist, too
[02:16:50] sphery: and no symlink recursion stuff :)
[02:16:50] troldrik: ugh
[02:17:05] troldrik: It's a frontend machine. :/
[02:17:28] sphery: have you set up storage groups on the master backend, yet?
[02:17:35] wagnerrp: hah! recursion would be fun
[02:17:46] troldrik: no, backend is still 0.21.
[02:17:56] sphery: if so, then they're set up (you don't need to specify storage group stuff anywhere except the master backend)
[02:18:14] sphery: you do know that trunk frontend/plugins won't work with -fixes backend, right?
[02:18:37] troldrik: Yes.
[02:18:51] troldrik: I just want to try out mythvideo with vdpau.
[02:20:09] sphery: ah, just be careful not to let it connect to the old DB/upgrade the old DB
[02:20:54] sid3windr: backups backups backups !
[02:21:14] troldrik: yeah, I copied mythconverg to mythtrunk and modified my ~/.mythtv/mysql.txt
[02:21:24] troldrik: So the old db isn't touched.
[02:22:16] squish102: sphery, i'm sorted now thanks
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[02:23:06] sphery: squidly: congrats, enjoy
[02:26:49] sphery: oops... sorry, squi dly (trying not to beep you again)--he quit just as I autocompleted...
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[03:00:57] darkdrgn2k: Hi, is there a more up to date version of somethign simialr to mythtv player?
[03:01:44] sphery: if by mythtv player you mean the mythtv application, that's just a test program
[03:01:49] wagnerrp: you *can* build mythfrontend for windows, but its not a simple or reliable process
[03:01:50] sphery: mythfrontend is the real program
[03:02:04] sphery: oh... the windows thing
[03:02:10] wagnerrp: sphery: he means the 3rd party windows frontend
[03:02:11] wagnerrp: yeah
[03:02:18] johnb003: mythfrontend for windows? that just connects to the backend running on linux somewhere?
[03:02:32] johnb003: anyone know if there's ever going to be a mythbackend designed for windows?
[03:02:33] wagnerrp: otherwise, if youre on vista, you can use UPnP on WMP
[03:02:37] darkdrgn2k: i mean a windowed player to watch my recording on xp :)
[03:02:48] wagnerrp: or, you can use samba and mythrename.pl
[03:02:52] johnb003: darkdrgn2k
[03:03:07] darkdrgn2k: ya buth nythplayer skips commercials :-P
[03:03:13] johnb003: darkdrgn2k: I'm working on a driver for cable STBs right now for windows.
[03:03:29] darkdrgn2k: johnb003: cool but i need front end:-P
[03:03:36] johnb003: MCE?
[03:03:41] darkdrgn2k: my cable company sux...
[03:03:51] darkdrgn2k: nohting on the firewire :-S
[03:03:58] johnb003: who do you have?
[03:04:02] darkdrgn2k: rogers
[03:04:18] johnb003: mine is bad too I had to hold their hand and read stuff to them
[03:04:23] wagnerrp: i dont think canada has anything saying cablecos have to carry anything unencrypted
[03:04:28] johnb003: it's like working with a company run by 5 year olds
[03:04:39] darkdrgn2k: wagnerrp: correct.. there is not the CRTC are a bunch ofl...
[03:04:50] darkdrgn2k: wagnerrp: im seriosuly thinking of a HD fury :-S
[03:04:57] johnb003: actually I'm pretty sure there's fcc standards that enforce the cable companies to provide devices with firewire
[03:05:09] darkdrgn2k: johnb003: oo theres firewire
[03:05:12] wagnerrp: in the US, there is
[03:05:12] darkdrgn2k: johnb003: but nothign on them
[03:05:27] wagnerrp: but even in the US, theres nothing saying the channels have to be unencrypted
[03:05:46] wagnerrp: local broadcast over QAM, yes. but nothing about what they have to provide on firewire
[03:05:48] darkdrgn2k: ....and they wonder why ppl hack... LMAO
[03:06:05] darkdrgn2k: sadly my settop antenna doesnt pick up antying at my new place :-S gerrrr
[03:06:53] johnb003: wagnerrp: it has nothing to do with encryption.
[03:07:05] johnb003: wagnerrp: the cable boxes do the decryption.
[03:07:22] wagnerrp: johnb003: yes, and then they re-encrypt it over firewire
[03:07:22] johnb003: and give you the stream, the only thing you have to worry about is 5c copy protection
[03:07:31] wagnerrp: 5c is an encryption scheme
[03:07:39] johnb003: nah it's a copy protection scheme
[03:07:43] darkdrgn2k: johnb003: ues... but theres nothing that says the box has to pass the unecnrypted video to the firewire..
[03:07:55] wagnerrp: mythtv doesnt even get past the handshaking, but the data stream is encrypted
[03:08:10] johnb003: if you don't authenticate with the device it won't send you anything for copy never, copy once content
[03:09:11] johnb003: I'm not talking about clear QAM tuners
[03:09:31] wagnerrp: neither am i, im talking about firewire ports on leased cable boxes
[03:09:47] johnb003: ya, I'm getting the stream as a standard mpeg2ts stream
[03:09:51] johnb003: it's no re-encrypted.
[03:09:57] johnb003: not*
[03:10:09] wagnerrp: it is if it is flagged as copy-once or copy-never
[03:10:14] darkdrgn2k: johnb003: Yes but the problem is the SOME providers dont pass the video TO the firewire...
[03:10:23] johnb003: hmmm
[03:10:41] darkdrgn2k: its kinda funny though
[03:10:47] johnb003: wagnerrp: if it's flagged I get nothing at all, but not many channels here have it.
[03:10:50] darkdrgn2k: they send the On Demand channels in clear qam!
[03:11:10] johnb003: darkdrgn2k: that's weird, they should have to give you a box with enabled firewire
[03:11:22] darkdrgn2k: johnb003: ooo the firewire IS enabled
[03:11:23] johnb003: it's not the fcc regulation that it has a port :P, it's that you can use it
[03:11:27] wagnerrp: johnb003: he lives in canada, they have no requirements about that
[03:11:31] johnb003: ah
[03:11:33] johnb003: lame
[03:11:34] darkdrgn2k: johnb003: got the drivers for xp (to test) installed.. and it connected.. but NO channels!
[03:11:50] johnb003: what box were you using?
[03:11:57] darkdrgn2k: ummm
[03:12:04] johnb003: dct-62xx?
[03:12:06] darkdrgn2k: its the northern something or antoehr 1 sec
[03:13:14] johnb003: well at that point you have no other choice, I'd just go for hd pvr
[03:13:20] darkdrgn2k: baa
[03:13:23] darkdrgn2k: encrypted.. and sucky!
[03:13:35] johnb003: and still tune with the stb
[03:14:18] darkdrgn2k: http://www.rogers.com/cms/images/en/PTV/produ . . . _digital.gif
[03:14:37] johnb003: ah
[03:14:39] darkdrgn2k: arg they dont say the model.... :-S
[03:15:00] darkdrgn2k: something atlantic..
[03:15:25] wagnerrp: scientific atlantic
[03:15:48] darkdrgn2k: there we go
[03:15:49] darkdrgn2k: scientific atlantic 3250
[03:16:01] darkdrgn2k: http://www.scientificatlanta.com/explorerclub . . . 21-lores.jpg
[03:17:09] johnb003: I have no knowledge of that model =\
[03:17:44] johnb003: I'm starting by writing the driver for my dct-6200 and I'll try to make it more and more generic from there to support as many STB as I can
[03:17:59] darkdrgn2k: whats involved in drivers?
[03:18:12] darkdrgn2k: i mean i saw scripts out there to start pulling an mpeg feed
[03:18:14] johnb003: I'll also open source this driver which will help the windows htpc community I think
[03:18:25] johnb003: well for linux it's a lot different
[03:18:34] darkdrgn2k: well yeh
[03:18:41] johnb003: for windows there's a big stack of interfaces
[03:18:43] darkdrgn2k: cause you interact wiht cli apps :-P
[03:19:06] johnb003: the bottom level you have the controller and protocols on up to filter driver and then minidrivers
[03:19:07] darkdrgn2k: yeh you gatta hook right into the firwire driver right
[03:19:29] johnb003: and you expose the interfaces you support, so the system knows what it can do with your device
[03:19:45] darkdrgn2k: yeh i never done driver programming in windows..
[03:19:47] johnb003: it's kind of nice though because once you get it all setup things will just work and know what to do with the device
[03:19:51] johnb003: me either :P
[03:19:54] johnb003: this is my first time
[03:19:58] darkdrgn2k: then agian i didnt do much keryel programming with nix iether
[03:20:04] darkdrgn2k: i wonder if i could tackle a project liek that..
[03:20:12] johnb003: but I'm pretty persistent and so far so good
[03:20:17] darkdrgn2k: lol
[03:20:21] darkdrgn2k: i always thoguht 3d woudl be hard
[03:20:23] darkdrgn2k: but its SOOO ez!
[03:20:26] johnb003: hehe
[03:20:35] johnb003: yeah I'm a programmer professionally anyway
[03:20:36] darkdrgn2k: so how hard can hardware be..
[03:20:42] darkdrgn2k: yeh... i try to be :-P
[03:20:46] darkdrgn2k: but i always get sucked into networking ..
[03:20:55] johnb003: I work in the games industry (SCEA)
[03:21:02] darkdrgn2k: that and my tallents have been wasted with .NET :-S
[03:21:07] darkdrgn2k: ooo cool
[03:21:53] johnb003: been sorta crunchin' for e3, but anyway
[03:22:01] johnb003: the driver stuff isn't TOO bad
[03:22:09] johnb003: you just have to spend a lot of time absorbing documentation
[03:22:16] johnb003: because there's nothing to walk you through it
[03:22:19] darkdrgn2k: yeh....... i bet
[03:22:28] darkdrgn2k: one thing i suck at LOl
[03:22:33] darkdrgn2k: i REALLY want ot get into myth devel
[03:22:35] johnb003: you have to just forge through it and keep refining
[03:22:39] darkdrgn2k: i just dont have the enregy to do it :-S
[03:22:42] johnb003: I refused to take on the task without debugging support
[03:22:44] darkdrgn2k: gatta learn QT first.
[03:22:51] darkdrgn2k: i been using MOOFIT till not :-P
[03:22:51] johnb003: so the first thing I got working was kernel debugging from a remote machine
[03:23:16] johnb003: I'm coding on my laptop, connected via firewire to an htpc connected to my tv
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[03:23:29] johnb003: I use a program called synergy so I don't have to swap keyboard and mouse
[03:23:43] johnb003: and I just keep updating the driver, instaling and stepping through to make sure it works.
[03:23:53] darkdrgn2k: huh cool
[03:23:54] johnb003: it was hell to get running
[03:23:58] darkdrgn2k: lol
[03:24:01] darkdrgn2k: remote debugging usaly is
[03:24:18] ** darkdrgn2k still doesnt know how he got .NET Remote debugger workign the first time... but it refuses to work the 2nd time **
[03:24:23] johnb003: I had to get a second 1394 controller for the htpc, one for debugging and one for the STB
[03:24:53] johnb003: yeah the remote debugging for kernel debugging is way worse than .NET
[03:24:56] johnb003: no network interface
[03:25:01] johnb003: since you need DMA on the target
[03:25:07] darkdrgn2k: hmmmm
[03:25:25] darkdrgn2k: most hardware ive done is serial port
[03:25:31] johnb003: so the kernel has a special driver that takes over the 1394 controller to give firewire access to memory, so you can debug over it
[03:25:40] johnb003: but then you can't use the driver stack on that controller
[03:25:44] johnb003: that's why I had to get a second one
[03:25:46] johnb003: PITA
[03:26:11] johnb003: you can't debug locally because if you break into the kernel the whole machine freezes
[03:26:24] johnb003: well
[03:26:46] johnb003: you can locally but you can only request snapshots of memory, you can't step through the code.
[03:27:22] darkdrgn2k: ummmm what proggy u using
[03:30:02] johnb003: for debugging?
[03:30:04] johnb003: windbg
[03:30:20] johnb003: do you guys know much about video formats?
[03:31:09] johnb003: the biggest problem now is describing to windows the video formats to expect from the stream.
[03:34:17] johnb003: Polling the device gives some info about what it can support
[03:34:24] johnb003: but there's a lot I have to guess and fill in on my own
[03:34:48] johnb003: and the way it's typically specified is a big nested data structure all statically defined that describes how it works.
[03:34:58] johnb003: it's meant to work with the directShow filter graph in windows
[03:35:08] johnb003: so there's a concept of pins and filter nodes.
[03:35:26] johnb003: and you connect pins together to pass the stream from one component to the next.
[03:35:43] johnb003: writing a driver is sort of like writing a new node for the graph.
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[03:39:41] wagnerrp: i have to say, i really appreciate windows on that one
[03:39:59] wagnerrp: windows a unix/linux really flipped roles on that one
[03:40:01] darkdrgn2k: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
[03:40:07] darkdrgn2k: does that actualy work with linux
[03:40:30] wagnerrp: linux, no... mythtv, yes
[03:40:37] darkdrgn2k: ?!?!?!!?
[03:40:38] darkdrgn2k: waa
[03:40:39] johnb003: heh
[03:40:49] wagnerrp: it doesnt fall into one of the kernel level frameworks
[03:40:53] wagnerrp: like v4l or dvb
[03:40:58] darkdrgn2k: oh....
[03:41:02] wagnerrp: but mythtv has custom support for it
[03:41:07] darkdrgn2k: huh....
[03:41:26] johnb003: yeah no driver framework
[03:41:31] johnb003: just low level block device support
[03:42:08] wagnerrp: anyway, unix has always been one program for one function
[03:42:22] darkdrgn2k: is it any good?
[03:42:27] wagnerrp: windows does that in directshow, since you have a bunch of independent filters for different tasks
[03:42:28] johnb003: most device support like that in linux is written as a user level program that utilizes protocol libraries for communication and just writes all of the interactions directly.
[03:42:42] wagnerrp: while linux, every program has the codecs hard coded in
[03:43:54] wagnerrp: although in windows, it seems like ffdshow ends up going everything anyway
[03:44:19] johnb003: If linux had a nice unified driver technology, maybe vendors would write drivers for it.
[03:44:40] darkdrgn2k: t
[03:44:42] darkdrgn2k: true
[03:44:49] darkdrgn2k: all drivers in nix have to be kernel compiled
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[03:45:18] wagnerrp: they have to be linked against the kernel
[03:45:20] stevecam: i can get my channels to load in VLC, but when i run my channel.conf in MythTV, it doesnt open them
[03:45:25] wagnerrp: that doesnt mean they have to be compiled or shipped with it
[03:45:58] wagnerrp: and thats the best and worst thing about OSS in general
[03:46:15] wagnerrp: theres no one group that does it and (hopefully) does it right
[03:46:33] wagnerrp: you have a bunch of groups all doing something how they think it should be done
[03:46:55] johnb003: yeah but you get powerful groups that make distros
[03:47:04] johnb003: and if they do a good job defining a standard
[03:47:08] johnb003: then others can follow that standard.
[03:47:28] wagnerrp: then you get OSS that is the big standard... and then fizzles
[03:47:30] johnb003: like how package systems work
[03:47:38] wagnerrp: and now you get ALSA that is the big standard
[03:47:54] johnb003: yeah they do too much, instead of defining frameworks, they define the end-user interface
[03:47:58] wagnerrp: and currently theres JACK, Pulse, and OSS that are trying to become the 'nexk big thing'
[03:48:16] wagnerrp: plus smaller ones like ARTS, and ESD
[03:48:31] johnb003: I really like win7 :)
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[03:53:52] stevecam: does anyone else have problems with importing channel.conf
[03:55:33] stevecam: vlc runs the channels fine, but i want it to run in mythtv
[03:57:26] wagnerrp: ive heard the channels.conf import for DVB has problems
[03:59:08] heyheyhey: wagnerrp i have a question how can i make mplayer work with a comcast remote i can get mplayer to see mce but not my comcast
[04:06:46] wagnerrp: if you get a receiver that can accept arbitrary codes, and you program LIRC to work with the remote, sure
[04:07:04] wagnerrp: i dont know if the MCE receiver is capable of that, or if it only sends recognized codes
[04:12:16] heyheyhey: i see
[04:12:29] heyheyhey: well i tried irsend
[04:12:44] heyheyhey: but i think i am doing something wrong
[04:13:00] wagnerrp: irsend sounds like it would be used for a blaster, not a receiver
[04:13:33] heyheyhey: yeah
[04:13:48] heyheyhey: i tring to figure this out
[04:14:06] heyheyhey: what i am doing is tring to use mplayer for live tv
[04:14:15] heyheyhey: on comcast on demand
[04:14:42] heyheyhey: using mce remote to control mplayer and irsend for comcast box
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[04:15:21] wagnerrp: so you want to capture the codes you want to send...
[04:15:27] sphery: think the mce remote and receiver is RC5 or RC6 (don't remember which) only
[04:15:39] wagnerrp: if you have a common cablebox, you should just be able to find the codes online
[04:16:19] sphery: the transmitter should send whatever, but don't know that you can record non-RC? with the receiver
[04:16:52] heyheyhey: yes
[04:17:10] heyheyhey: well myth can control cable box no problem
[04:17:25] heyheyhey: here is my mplayer lirc conf
[04:17:28] heyheyhey: http://pastebin.com/m70387a94
[04:21:40] lyricnz: Here's a question – and it might be a linux/samba one (dunno):
[04:22:21] lyricnz: I have a couple of LAN-playing media devices (popcorn hour A110 for example), which automagically see the mythbox
[04:22:41] lyricnz: They can browse the content: by title, by date, etc etc. Great.
[04:22:52] lyricnz: However when they try and play, it fails.
[04:23:04] lyricnz: Is this something I would need to turn on in mythbackend somehow?
[04:23:27] lyricnz: I guess myth is acting as upnp or somesuch media device
[04:24:07] sphery: heyheyhey: those look like the wrong commands for things (like channel up and play and stuff)... and things like irsend SEND_ONCE dct6200 select should probably be sent to irexec, not mplayer
[04:25:22] sphery: heyheyhey: you can get a full list of commands that you can send (in the config = line) by using: mplayer -input cmdlist
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[04:27:54] heyheyhey: sphery i can't use irsend with mplayer?
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[04:52:19] stevecam: i try to import channel.conf, but whenever i import it into mythtv, i get a no signal error, any ideas anyone?
[04:52:26] stevecam: i hope im not getting too repeditive
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[04:59:38] stevecam: this is starting to piss me off
[05:01:30] stevecam: is there something wrong with the current version of mythtv?
[05:01:43] stevecam: how can i import the channels manually
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[05:15:51] ** stevecam shoots MythTV with a sawnoff shotgun **
[05:16:18] wagnerrp: sawed?
[05:16:28] stevecam: yeah
[05:16:48] stevecam: wagnerrp, is it possible to enter in the data manually?
[05:17:08] wagnerrp: certainly.... not recommended though
[05:17:25] wagnerrp: few people in here would be able to provide guidance on that
[05:17:29] wagnerrp: lesser still would want to
[05:19:01] stevecam: yeah, but nothing else seems to work for me, unless you have any other ideas
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[05:33:49] lyricnz: Gak. I can't believe some world-championship sport is still filmed/broadcast in 4:3 SDTV.
[05:34:05] wagnerrp: what would that be?
[05:34:10] lyricnz: World Superbike
[05:34:50] wagnerrp: road? drag? or dirt?
[05:35:05] lyricnz: production-based road racing
[05:35:22] lyricnz: Like motogp but proddy bikes, not gp
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[07:37:49] k-man: since I upgraded to fixes, the OSD doesnt seem to render any text,
[07:38:32] tank-man: sounds like a known problem with a known fix
[07:39:29] k-man: tank-man: what is it?
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[07:40:19] tank-man: I just started my web browser and went to google and typed in the search term "mythtv osd no txt" and the first link said ....
[07:40:53] tank-man: he was missing some fonts
[07:42:19] tank-man: or you can probably change the osd font to one that you have
[07:42:37] k-man: thanks
[07:43:10] tank-man: your welcome
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[09:03:01] Kevin`: what is the current method for installing mythtv on windows?
[09:03:18] wagnerrp: mythrename.pl and a samba share
[09:03:27] Kevin`: ..for live tv
[09:03:50] wagnerrp: you *can* compile the frontend for use on windows
[09:03:58] wagnerrp: but its neither easy nor reliable
[09:04:39] Kevin`: the 'windows port' page says the information is outdated. is there another source?
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[10:13:38] linagee: did the sci-fi channel run out of money or something? I don't seem to see any new shows on there
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[10:35:33] sid3windr: meh, my backend crashes a lot lately
[10:39:32] laga: gdb?
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[10:40:32] sid3windr: rather "restart because fscking up my recordings"
[10:41:01] sid3windr: 2009-05–24 09:01:09.537 DVBChan(1:1) Error: SetChannelByString(101): CheckChannel failed.
[10:41:04] sid3windr: Please verify the channel in the 'mythtv-setup' Channel Editor.
[10:41:07] sid3windr: 2009-05–24 09:01:09.541 TVRec(1) Error: Failed to set channel to 101. Reverting to kState_None
[10:41:10] sid3windr: 2009-05–24 12:35:19.977 Using runtime prefix = /usr
[10:41:22] sid3windr: lessee what that is ;)
[10:42:15] sid3windr: hm, no idea what it is ;(
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[10:42:46] sid3windr: what is "verify the channel" ?
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[10:45:51] Dibblah: Make sure the channel exists and is tunable.
[10:45:55] Dibblah: What's the source?
[10:46:35] sid3windr: dvb-t
[10:46:51] sid3windr: it exists in the setup
[10:46:59] sid3windr: should be tunable, I scanned for it in the first place...
[10:47:19] sid3windr: backend seems to die on it though ;/
[10:47:20] Dibblah: -v channel
[10:47:24] Dibblah: should give more info.
[10:47:35] Dibblah: (And use pastebin, please)
[10:49:40] sid3windr: yeah I wasn't going to paste a gazillion lines in here ;)
[10:52:19] sid3windr: mm
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[10:52:26] sid3windr: when using it with livetv, it doesn't crash.
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[10:54:18] sid3windr: hm. when you switch input source, the frontend reconnects to the backend?
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[11:11:28] k-man: i have added my hdhomerun tuner to mythtv, but in tuner status, it says its unavailable
[11:11:35] k-man: and I can't switch to that input
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[11:21:22] k-man: nm, i worked it out
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[12:26:15] j3553: What is the best OS to use with Mythtv (medium to not so powerfull desktop)
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[12:31:17] skullhacks: In how many chats am I?
[12:32:13] j3553: 20 or so ...
[12:32:40] skullhacks: more or less
[12:33:10] j3553: skullhacks on #drupal-support #kde-devel #nethack #shellium ##security #solaris #mythtv-users #wordpress ##hardware #vbox #gstreamer #hamradio #ReactOS #ubuntu-bugs #ubuntu-meeting #xchat ##politics #ubuntu #HackerForever
[12:33:16] j3553: why would i bother to count nyways
[12:34:35] xand: skullhacks: stop asking that in every fucking channel
[12:36:14] skullhacks: lol
[12:36:16] skullhacks: im lame
[12:36:28] j3553: that appears to be the case indeed :p
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[12:37:23] sphery: j3553: Best OS is GNU/Linux. Best distribution is the one (closest to the one) you're most familiar with. If you use Ubuntu, choose MythBuntu for Myth. If you use Fedora, choose MythDora. (Where Myth* distros are simply the "main" distro already configured for Myth as opposed to a distro you have to reconfigure for Myth.)
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[12:37:39] sphery: well, what a waste of typing
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[12:41:05] gbee: sphery: bind that to a handy key combo, save repeating yourself each time
[12:41:59] chainsawbike: or make a bot + add it to it so we can all use it :P
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[12:50:26] ** Dibblah would like a "how to do a proper backtrace" bot :( **
[12:51:06] Dibblah: Well, my external PCI enclosure seems to work well enough :)
[12:51:29] Dibblah: 7 slots, £51 delivered, 25w with 4 tuner cards.
[12:52:08] Dibblah: Most of that is just because it's using it's own PSU – I believe it'll be about 5w when I move it to using a picopsu run off the main 12v.
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[13:05:15] janneg: Dibblah: DVB-T cards? DVB-S cards should draw a lot more. I would guess at least 5W per card
[13:05:28] Dibblah: -c actually, but yes.
[13:06:09] Dibblah: Many S cards are hungry due to the LNB PSU...
[13:06:41] Dibblah: It's 20w when run with just the bridge chipset.
[13:07:30] Dibblah: Unfortunately, I'd really like to continue this trend: http://pendor.org/power/2years_power.png
[13:07:48] Dibblah: If I wasn't at all concerned with power consumption, it'd be a lot easier :)
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[13:11:38] Dibblah: http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/attachment/ticket/6564/gdb.txt
[13:11:47] Dibblah: Hmm. A 4 way deadlock? Impressive.
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[14:54:12] wagnerrp: Dibblah: what enclosure are you using?
[14:54:25] Dibblah: avid thing.
[14:58:57] Dibblah: Looks like it's not meant as a general purpose enclosure. But... It works :)
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[15:20:54] ** jblack_ quickly falls in love chinagrabber.com. **
[15:21:37] jblack_: Which is better? A 2 gig flash drive in the shape of a hamburger, a usb powered vacuum cleaner, or a usb powered coffee warmer?
[15:21:57] Tectonic: vacuum cleaner
[15:22:00] wagnerrp: i cant imagine the two latter ones are at all useful
[15:22:10] wagnerrp: not much you can do on 2.5W
[15:22:22] Tectonic: you can launch nerf missiles
[15:22:39] wagnerrp: that doesnt take power, just enough to flip a latch
[15:22:43] wagnerrp: theyre spring loaded
[15:22:50] Tectonic: ah
[15:23:02] Tectonic: you have to reload manually?
[15:23:10] Tectonic: reset the spring?
[15:23:14] jblack_: Ohhhh! mp4 watches. Now I can watch myth while in.. while taking... while unavailable
[15:23:27] wagnerrp: no, it sprouts wheels, and goes out and collects the missiles
[15:23:41] Tectonic: :)
[15:24:03] Tectonic: is there a diagram for mythtv that shows a general system layout for a satellite setup?
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[15:24:25] wagnerrp: US subscription? or DVB?
[15:24:43] Tectonic: like shows each of the components and how they're connected together. US – haven't bought yet, but probably will be getting Dish Network
[15:24:56] jblack_: speaking of missiles... Net guns... http://chinagrabber.com/shootingnet-netguns.aspx
[15:25:19] jblack_: never mind. no usb.
[15:26:11] wagnerrp: sat dish/lnb --> sat box --> analog capture (IVTV or HDPVR) --> mythbackend --> ir blaster --> sat box
[15:27:51] Tectonic: so what type of connection between the satellite box and the analog capture device, component?
[15:28:24] wagnerrp: depends on your capture device
[15:28:32] wagnerrp: an IVTV card, you use svideo
[15:28:41] wagnerrp: an HDPVR, you use component
[15:28:47] Tectonic: so HDPVR if i'm going to have any HD content
[15:30:58] Tectonic: any recommendations for HDPVR cards?
[15:31:12] wagnerrp: none
[15:31:26] Dibblah: 2.5w is plenty to keep a cup of coffee warm.
[15:31:53] Dibblah: Assuming insulation, etc.
[15:32:12] wagnerrp: (the HDPVR does not come in card form)
[15:32:20] Dibblah: However, to get more than 500mW from the USB port, you actually need to talk protocol.
[15:32:39] wagnerrp: 500? i thought it was 100
[15:32:56] laga: 100mA at 5V
[15:33:08] Tectonic: oh...so I'd have to use something like the Hauppage HD PVR USB device to record HD coming off the satellite box?
[15:33:15] Tectonic: or is there another way?
[15:33:18] wagnerrp: ah, couldnt remember if it were 100mA or 100mW
[15:33:39] wagnerrp: thats the only way to record HD off a satellite box
[15:33:57] wagnerrp: well... the only supported way anyway, and its only supported in trunk
[15:34:45] Tectonic: .22 or .211 or some other devs?
[15:35:01] wagnerrp: there is the R5000 which while perfectly legal is probably a violation of TOS, and then theres softcams which are just outright illegal
[15:35:11] wagnerrp: neither 0.22 nor 0.21.1 exist
[15:35:15] wagnerrp: trunk is trunk
[15:36:11] Dibblah: And JYA's 'backport' is JYA's 'backport'.
[15:36:31] wagnerrp: hence... not supported by mythtv
[15:37:48] Tectonic: I see. Is it more practical to use mythtv on a digital cable setup in the US then, or is it pretty difficult except for airwave tv?
[15:38:43] wagnerrp: depends, some cable providers have a lot of channels available, some have only the required broadcast channels, others allow lots of channels over firewire
[15:39:15] wagnerrp: if you have comcast in your area, and theyre offering DTAs, you will at least get extended cable over clear QAM
[15:39:24] wagnerrp: anyone know if that stuff is HD or all SD?
[15:39:34] wagnerrp: i imagine SD because the DTAs cant actually output HD
[15:39:43] Tectonic: no comcast unfortunately, only have Charter cable here
[15:40:12] wagnerrp: well check silicondust.com, they maintain a list by zip code of what you can expect to pick up
[15:40:32] wagnerrp: any time someone scans with an HDHR, it phones in the list
[15:41:10] wagnerrp: (assuming you've told the program your zipcode, and have allowed it to phone in)
[15:41:16] Tectonic: neat
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[15:44:53] Tectonic: so in a digital cable setup it's dc box -> capture card via firewire
[15:45:13] wagnerrp: in digital cable, you have three options
[15:45:24] wagnerrp: cable line --> qam tuner --> mythtv
[15:45:49] wagnerrp: cable line --> stb --> firewire card --> mythtv --> firewire control
[15:45:54] stevecam: set top boxes must be different every where else, i always thought they just produced one signal and that was the signal that the set top box was supposed to display on the tv
[15:46:14] wagnerrp: cable line --> stb --> IVTV or HDPVR --> mythtv --> firewire or ir blaster control
[15:48:54] Tectonic: in the case of a qam tuner card, can you get all stations?
[15:49:15] wagnerrp: in the case of a cablecard tuner, you can get all the stations you have subscribed to
[15:49:22] wagnerrp: however mythtv cannot use cablecard tuners
[15:49:36] wagnerrp: no... only vista mce can use cablecard tuners
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[15:49:43] Tectonic: ah, is that a legal issue?
[15:49:44] wagnerrp: and then youre not even storing video
[15:50:06] wagnerrp: youre storing an encrypted stream that has to be passed back through the tuner card and decrypted at time of playback
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[15:50:29] stevecam: why bother
[15:51:00] jblack_: I think that's their goal.
[15:51:18] wagnerrp: stevecam: its all about control, they want to maintain complete control over the content until the point it is deleted
[15:51:38] wagnerrp: anything you can use with mythtv is going to be a clearqam tuner
[15:51:42] ** stevecam sighs **
[15:51:57] wagnerrp: which means you can only capture unencrypted streams
[15:52:16] wagnerrp: the list at silicondust contains the local clear channels in your area
[15:52:21] jblack_: There is equipment that you can find to help, but discussion of it isn't allowed here.
[15:52:23] Tectonic: thanks for all the help/info
[15:52:29] Tectonic: appreciate you helping out a newb here
[15:53:11] wagnerrp: as mentioned before, theres the r5000 which is a violation of TOS, and softcams which are outright illegal
[15:53:29] wagnerrp: neither of which are supported in code or support in any official manner
[15:53:49] stevecam: unofficial?
[15:54:17] wagnerrp: i believe there are third party patches to use them, but thats as far as the discussion goes
[15:55:12] stevecam: Tectonic, looks like you will have to consult google
[15:55:44] wagnerrp: if you want to use something like that, youre on your own
[15:57:15] stevecam: i wish my MythTV would work :-(
[16:00:21] stevecam: would it be worth trying to install an older version of mythtv and scanning for channels like that
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[16:34:30] tdondich: Hi all, having trouble getting mythtv to show livetv. I'm getting an error GetEntryAt(-1) failed in the front-end logs. Has anyone ran into this?
[16:35:15] mchou_ is now known as mchou
[16:42:11] smithna: Hi, I wish to get some opinions.... Is a raid-5 setup worth while or would using "storage groups" and JBOD be a better option? Reading these article makes me wonder... http://esj.com/articles/2005/07/12/improving- . . . -arrays.aspx
[16:42:26] smithna: http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=162
[16:42:37] smithna: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/314/2
[16:43:03] wagnerrp: in general, jbod is better for mythtv
[16:43:08] smithna: Plus there's a $$$ hit for using Raid....
[16:43:22] wagnerrp: sure, you lose the redundancy, but are TV recordings that important?
[16:43:45] wagnerrp: but the performance of JBOD on mythtv tasks is FAR better than what raid5/6 would give you
[16:44:12] wagnerrp: myth wants multiple concurrent writes
[16:44:24] wagnerrp: ideally, each write gets its own spindle (hard drive)
[16:44:53] smithna: true
[16:45:20] stevecam: wagnerrp
[16:45:24] stevecam: guess what?
[16:46:00] ** stevecam increased the timeout **
[16:46:03] stevecam: its working
[16:46:26] wagnerrp: tuner just takes a while to lock?
[16:46:34] stevecam: must of been
[16:47:36] smithna: So is there any arguement for using RAID? (other than uptime, possibly)
[16:48:31] wagnerrp: redundancy, linear writes, linear and concurrent reads
[16:50:01] stevecam: i should of tried it in the first place, its so obvious
[16:50:27] wagnerrp: basically, the problem with RAID is that one write has to be written to multiple disks
[16:50:36] wagnerrp: with 5 or 6, it has to be written to all disks
[16:50:42] wagnerrp: with 0, it has to be written to the mirror
[16:51:29] wagnerrp: so while striping does get you better performance, it doesnt compete with bare drives
[16:52:09] stevecam: wagnerrp, will you wish me luck on my projector screen?
[16:52:16] wagnerrp: to be honest, disk performance isnt really an issue
[16:52:37] tdondich: How much do you value your pr0n.
[16:52:41] tdondich: Basically.
[16:52:42] wagnerrp: a modern hard drive with write caching can handle a dozen simultaneous HD streams
[16:52:43] troldrik: raid 0.... mrirror?
[16:53:13] stevecam: caching helps, raid helps too
[16:53:17] wagnerrp: multiple disks just helps you cut down on file fragmentation
[16:53:23] stevecam: cache and raid together are even better
[16:53:47] wagnerrp: well usually, your raid IS your cache
[16:54:20] stevecam: i havnt used raid in a while
[16:55:02] wagnerrp: raid cards usually have a local cache of 128–512MB
[16:55:20] stevecam: that should be effecient
[16:55:25] wagnerrp: i assume software implementations have similar caching and queuing
[16:57:43] tdondich: Anyone know anything about the EntryToProgram failed to get pginfo error?
[16:58:57] smithna: For a HTPC (as far as I can tell) it seems there isn't a performance issue between single disk and RAID (ie: performance wise it doen't really matter). Both should be able to serve your files quick enough to watch TV and write fast enough to save them
[16:59:24] smithna: Correct?
[16:59:52] wagnerrp: pretty much, like i said, in the end the only real problem is that recording several channels to a single file system results in heavy fragmentation
[17:00:06] wagnerrp: and if you use XFS, you can tune it such that even that isnt an issue
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[17:01:25] smithna: And since this statement is repeated multple times on the list.... "Raid is not backup", the only thing you buy with RAID is uptime — Do I have that right?
[17:01:39] wagnerrp: not exactly
[17:01:49] wagnerrp: with HARDWARE RAID you buy uptime
[17:02:07] wagnerrp: i dont know if software implementations have hotswap capability
[17:02:20] wagnerrp: with RAID in general, you buy reliability
[17:02:31] wagnerrp: one hard drive failure wont result in data loss
[17:02:58] wagnerrp: redundancy protects against hardware failure
[17:03:05] wagnerrp: backups protect against user failure
[17:03:54] wagnerrp: theres no real reason for mythtv backups
[17:04:10] wagnerrp: unless you expect yourself to accidentally delete data
[17:04:32] wagnerrp: backup the database, everything else can be reinstalled fairly quickly
[17:05:38] smithna: Not if you have large amounts of movie/video data — that would have to be re-ripped
[17:06:03] wagnerrp: if you have redundancy, you wont lose it
[17:06:13] wagnerrp: backups are to protect from careless action of the user
[17:06:21] wagnerrp: like deleting data, or burning the building down
[17:08:00] smithna: or lighting strikes, dropping the machine, etc
[17:08:57] wagnerrp: dropping the machine sure sounds like careless action of the user
[17:10:30] laga: i tripped over a running hard disk once
[17:10:39] laga: did i just sound like clever?
[17:10:52] wagnerrp: leaving active hard drives on the floor... careless action of the user
[17:11:00] laga: :)
[17:11:21] gbee: with any sort of normal collection fully backing up recordings would likely be expensive, personally I don't value my recordings sufficiently to spend that money. If I buy a drive I'd rather expand storage
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[17:12:12] ** smithna basically agrees with gbee **
[17:12:46] wagnerrp: whenever i upgrade my RAID, i keep the old drives around for backups
[17:13:17] wagnerrp: ive got a drawer full of 300 and 320GBs with assorted video
[17:19:16] sphery: Dibblah: regarding the "how to do a proper backtrace" bot, I can't even get distro users to fill out the distro-specific steps for getting backtraces with packages at http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Debugging
[17:24:48] iamlindoro: sphery, If I used packages I'd happily fill out a bit for you
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[17:32:16] gbee: I make promises I can't keep, so I'll do it :p
[17:32:22] dustybin: iamlindoro: what are you going to have for dinner this evening?
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[17:45:22] mchou: dustybin: are you two an item now?
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[17:50:26] sphery: iamlindoro: yeah, that's my problem, too--I don't use packages (and actually don't know a thing about any of the packages out there)
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[19:30:12] cityLights1: hi all
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[19:30:46] cityLights1: I see channel 62.50 Mhz in tv-time , but it is missing in my mythtv scan
[19:30:54] cityLights1: how may I add it manually?
[19:31:06] cityLights1: I use PAL and try-all
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[19:37:35] gbee: make sure you are using the correct frequency table
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[19:56:55] castlec: hey all. My frontend is complaining about not being able to connect to mysql and not finding a upnp server. I think it's because I changed the IP address on the backend. The IP is correct in mythtv-setup. Any ideas?
[19:59:09] bsl: try pinging
[19:59:30] sphery: castlec: most likely you have old/broken mysql.txt and/or config.xml files scattered around your system(s)
[19:59:35] castlec: ping works
[20:00:17] sphery: find all the config.xml and mysql.txt files on your system and fix them
[20:00:25] sphery: they're self-explanatory once you look inside
[20:00:39] sphery: they're still pointing to the old backend
[20:00:42] castlec: on the backend you think? the front end is a new lts image
[20:00:50] sphery: on all systems
[20:01:22] sphery: just check them all to make sure it's all set up right
[20:02:22] castlec: I'll start digging. One thing I noticed on the backend is that the DBHOSTNAME is set to localhost but the gui config doesn't say that. Would that do it, you think?
[20:02:48] castlec: frontend on the backend still functions
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[20:04:16] castlec: When I change those files do I need to run mythfilldatabase or will it just work?
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[20:09:43] sphery: no need to run mythfilldatabase--that only runs on the master backend and all it does is grab your listings data for you
[20:09:57] sphery: assuming you've run it before, just let Myth run it for you
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[20:23:55] bsl: i'm looking to build a backend, whats the important qualities of a storage server?
[20:24:07] meshe: hard drive space
[20:24:12] bsl: bus speed?
[20:24:19] bsl: or not so much
[20:24:28] bsl: what should i look for in a mobo?
[20:25:10] meshe: probably a good number of sata ports and pci slots (if you are using pci tuners)
[20:25:15] dustybin: bsl: stick with intel, asus
[20:25:44] cityLights1: gbee: here, I was on another window and didnt notice it
[20:25:56] cityLights1: hi sphery
[20:26:10] bsl: I like AMD / DFI
[20:26:38] dustybin: AMD ok, never heard of DFI
[20:26:47] cityLights1: my frequency table should be ok, as I find most of the channels in the scan
[20:26:48] bsl: they make overclocking mobos
[20:26:58] dustybin: judging by their website, http://www.dfi.com.tw/ i would stay clear
[20:27:03] bsl: lol
[20:27:07] bsl: i've had them for years
[20:27:09] cityLights1: yet the 62.50 Mhz in pal is missing
[20:27:28] bsl: i just wanted to see what you said, after you're immediate reponse of intel / asus
[20:27:41] cityLights1: dfi is considered reputd
[20:27:45] cityLights1: reputed
[20:28:10] bsl: ?? like reputable?
[20:28:25] cityLights1: sorry , english is my second lang
[20:28:29] bsl: haven't seen the word reputed often
[20:28:56] bsl: websters says "to have a good repute" so looks like your english is ok
[20:28:58] cityLights1: and yes I should learn to spell as I learned syntax
[20:29:10] cityLights1: yet it is eaiser not to...
[20:29:38] bsl: thats okay, americans don't have good spelling either
[20:29:59] bsl: I'd assume most people dont (computer people) due to spell check since youth
[20:30:01] dustybin: a motherboard with lots of SATA ports so you can make use of linux software RAID for storage
[20:30:02] ** iamlindoro raises his eyebrows **
[20:30:20] cityLights1: so, the answer to finding the 62.50Mhz in pal in try all , is to change the freq table?
[20:32:34] bsl: what type of RAID is generally used for myth tv?
[20:32:40] dustybin: bsl: stay away from gigabyte motherboards, usually the not-so-clued up end up buying those boards
[20:32:55] bsl: i'm assuming the one that splits data to several drives? not the redundancy sort
[20:33:21] laga: dustybin: what's wrong with gigabyte? except for their -in my experience – bad customer support?
[20:33:30] bsl: RAID for speed, not so much for redundancy?
[20:34:00] bsl: I know gigabyte from reputation (not from use) but I have a decent overall impression of them
[20:34:08] meshe: myth doesn't need raid for speed, if you're not using your raid for redundancy failure prevention then just use storage groups
[20:34:28] meshe: +1 for gigabyte hardware
[20:34:47] bsl: perhaps I've been lucky in the past, but I've never had a HD fail, so i generally don't give a crap / run RAID
[20:35:11] bsl: also I dont really care if my porn gets lost, I'll just get more (joke)
[20:35:29] dustybin: do HDs last longer if they are left on 24.7 ? does turning your computer on and off reduce the life span of a HD ?
[20:35:40] bsl: I've heard that, but I think it's crap
[20:35:58] dustybin: its more likely read and writes what wear them out
[20:36:26] bsl: the theory is that power up + power down wears down the mechanical components
[20:36:28] meshe: it used to make a difference with other hardware ie mobos pci cards, I still leave my systems on all the time anyway
[20:36:38] bsl: if you get SSD, then you'd never even hear that argument
[20:36:58] meshe: power up/power down causes heat stress in the solder points on the components
[20:37:19] meshe: that was the old theory anyway
[20:37:20] dustybin: im going to start building a beast of a server
[20:37:24] bsl: okay, physical components, not mechanical
[20:37:59] dustybin: im running out of space with my current setup, i need to start preparing for a big switch, new tv, new server, and mythtv .22 :D
[20:38:14] bsl: 1TB is down to 100$ now
[20:38:15] meshe: my computers are always on, my hard drives are always spinning, the only thing that get turned off are laptops and monitors
[20:38:50] bsl: i turn my shit off because I worry about power bill
[20:39:12] cityLights1: me too
[20:39:25] dustybin: your computer components are more important than a power bill :D
[20:39:27] sphery: the power definitely adds up
[20:39:29] meshe: in my experience, each computer i run fulltime only costs about $5/month on the power bill
[20:40:14] bsl: yeah, i've never realy caculated
[20:40:27] cityLights1: so I guess no here can help me find my lost 62.50Mhz channel
[20:40:28] bsl: i've seen power strips that will record the actual usage
[20:40:30] bsl: i'm curious
[20:40:41] sphery: mine are costing me about $5 to $10/mo (depending on how many hard drives--$10/mo for myth backends)
[20:40:42] cityLights1: well, good luck dustybin
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[20:46:19] dustybin: if there are serious bugs in VDPAU, can that halt the release of .22 ?
[20:47:02] laga: no, i doubt that
[20:47:58] meshe: i bet my husbands new GTX 275 video card is going to increase our power bill
[20:48:16] meshe: requires 40 Amps on the 12V rail
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[20:53:10] AndyCap: meshe: heh, how much does it idle at?
[20:53:44] meshe: not sure, i haven't checked it's usage out
[20:54:29] meshe: supposedly it's better than the ATI equivelant and lowers it's power usage, where the ATI's stay pretty high in idle
[20:54:44] AndyCap: seems they added a little extra to be safe http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-275,2266-14.html
[20:54:57] AndyCap: unless tom's messed up the measurements
[20:55:42] dustybin: anybody here use glossy screen monitors / laptops? what are they like to use?
[20:56:20] gbee: dustybin: honestly that's something you have to decide for yourself, some people prefer shiny, some matt
[20:56:44] meshe: dustybin: i loved my dell 700m which had the glossy screen, it made things seem so much more detailed
[20:56:49] gbee: personally I much prefer the picture with a glossy screen, but they are a nightmare in bright sunlight
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[20:57:20] dustybin: apple doesnt give you any choice, there are no matt imacs, matt screens come in only 2 sizes, 20" what is too small, or 30". the only apple laptop what has a matt version is the expensive 17" model..
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[21:00:24] meshe: i would definatly buy glossy again
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[21:04:27] jblack_: I've always thought of "glossy" as french for "glare magnets"
[21:05:20] meshe: the one i had really wasn't bad at all for glare, i bought it mainly for using on the commute to work and it had sun on the screen lots
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[21:10:31] ** CoreDump|cf-18 owns one glossy laptop and it is absolutely unusable in daylight... **
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[21:12:15] CoreDump|cf-18: my tablet OTOH rocks in daylight
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[22:49:40] heyheyhey: what is VDPAU?
[22:50:16] iamlindoro: If only we had some sort of wiki or something
[22:50:19] iamlindoro: oh wait
[22:50:20] iamlindoro: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Vdpau
[22:51:18] heyheyhey: lol
[22:51:30] cityLights1: is there a way to mark a small piece of the news and send it off to my dad?
[22:51:54] iamlindoro: Not from the Myth UI, no
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[22:52:17] cityLights1: is there a chance such a feature would be added in 0.22?
[22:52:21] iamlindoro: You could use ffmpeg or mencoder to encode a range of seconds to another file, then e-mail a file to him
[22:52:31] iamlindoro: doubtful, you'll never see file sharing functions in Myth
[22:52:32] cityLights1: or was that allready been asked for
[22:53:25] jblack_: Who owns the rights to the code?
[22:53:27] cityLights1: is the legal side such an issue in the myth development?
[22:53:49] cityLights1: sorry SO is call 4 me
[22:53:55] cityLights1: off to dream
[22:54:05] iamlindoro: Following the law/terms of service is very important to the devs, yes
[22:54:35] cityLights1: ok
[22:54:43] cityLights1: bye for now , then
[22:55:05] iamlindoro: jblack_, The code is open source-- there's nothing stopping someone from taking the code and doing what they want with it, but it won't get into Myth, and any fork wouldn't be MythTV
[22:55:08] jblack_: Hmmm. I think you're conflating two issues. They're definitely keen on following all applicable laws, and not being obnoxious to any halfway sensible terms of of service.
[22:55:26] jblack_: I know myth is free software. I'm asking who owns currently holds the rights.
[22:55:49] iamlindoro: I'm not sure what you mean by "rights"
[22:56:17] iamlindoro: If you're asking who makes the decisions w/r/t how the project on the whole behaves, I guess that would be the devs with commit access, and at the end of the day, Isaac
[22:56:30] jblack_: Some combination of persons and organizations would retain copyright, any filed trademarks or patents, etc.
[22:57:46] iamlindoro: Individual authors of lines of code own the copyright on their code, per the GPL
[22:58:07] iamlindoro: so, for example, if someone infringes on the GPL by copying code I put into myth, it would be up to me personally to follow it up
[22:58:24] jblack_: So non-aggregated rights. Definitely good news.
[22:58:28] iamlindoro: You can release the right to defend that code to a lawyer, a la the FSF
[22:58:54] iamlindoro: jblack_, That's not a project decision so much as it is how the GPL works
[22:59:17] jblack_: It depends.
[22:59:23] iamlindoro: ffmpeg, for example, has asked their authors to get in touch with the FSF to sign such a paper so that the FSF can sue on their behalf projects which violate the GPL
[23:00:06] jblack_: Other projects, such as asterisk, don't accept contributions without assignment of copyright.
[23:00:32] mchou: that's cause asterisk is not gpl
[23:01:03] jblack_: I believe it's available as gpl, but I'll double check.
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[23:01:35] jblack_: Anyways, I have personal knowledge on this issue, as I assigned copyright for portions of gnuarch that I wrote so that the FSF could aggregate copyright.
[23:02:11] jblack_: As I thought, Asterisk is available as gplv2, which in my book qualifies as free software.
[23:02:33] jblack_: so, mchou, you're wrong
[23:03:22] iamlindoro: jblack_, yeah, no signing over of rights or anything here, just basic GPL and that's it
[23:03:40] mchou: jblack_: look at the dual licensing model asterisk uses
[23:03:44] jblack_: That's the way it should be.
[23:06:06] jblack_: iamlindoro: I'm thinking of what you said a few moments ago about what is or could go into myth.. particularly from the perspective of what happend to bittorrent.
[23:07:07] jblack_: I never got all of the details, but I think Bram Cohen got tossed as adhoc leaders over the encryption layer that most of the devs wanted.
[23:07:57] jblack_: Or for that matter, look at the projects that were formally known as mysql. I have no idea where that mess is.
[23:08:29] iamlindoro: jblack_, There's nothing preventing one from writing such an addition to myth, of course, it just wouldn't get committed, would be pretty much immediately vetoed
[23:08:47] iamlindoro: like anything open source, there's no harm/objection to writing and hosting such a things oneself, of course
[23:09:02] iamlindoro: well, harm is debatable, but no objection from the devs anyway :)
[23:10:30] jblack_: I'm not advocating that anyone tries to turn mythbackend into a bittorrent client. That said.... the concept of ownership in a free software project is a.... fluid one, and I think "never say never" would apply.
[23:10:54] mchou: jblack_: you are free to fork
[23:11:27] iamlindoro: jblack_, Well okay, "pending total turnover in devs, MythTV in its current incarnation will never have file sharing functionality out of the box," then
[23:11:36] mchou: good luck rallying the current myth devs to work on file sharing
[23:12:02] jblack_: mchou: Sure, and anyone else is too.
[23:12:26] mchou: jblack_: why you always embark on this crusade is puzzling
[23:12:27] jblack_: I don't know anyone that wants to fork myth (self included). I think the devs are doing a fantastic job.
[23:12:38] mchou: if you dont like it, write your own
[23:13:12] jblack_: You must have some sort of twisted misunderstanding of what I think.
[23:13:23] jblack_: what do you think I want?
[23:13:28] mchou: I have no misunderstanding at all
[23:14:14] mchou: you've come in here many times citing "what's up while file sharing in myth?" or some variation thereof
[23:14:23] laga: love. unconditional love.
[23:14:29] mchou: you've been given the same answers MANY times
[23:14:41] mchou: s/while/with
[23:14:42] jblack_: You're wrong. I challenge that statement.
[23:14:50] ** laga goes back to watching TNG **
[23:16:07] jblack_: The closest thing I can think of is that I was rather unhappy with the imdb script being pulled (which I later changed my mind on, after a long conversation), but unless you'd like to ague that imdb.pl is a filesharing script, you're either wrong, or a liar.
[23:16:30] jblack_: Anyways, plonk
[23:16:48] jblack_: iamlindoro: To cut to the chase, I like "never say never".
[23:17:12] ** laga blinks **
[23:26:12] kormoc: bit-torrent support is something that the entire dev team agrees on, why would you imagine that the entire team would change their mind on that topic?
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[23:28:03] iamlindoro: BT is one of those funny things-- it is *by far* the easiest thing one could add to Myth
[23:28:18] iamlindoro: because the secret is, Qt comes with a full almost-myth-compatible BT client
[23:28:40] iamlindoro: so it would take a *tiny* bit of MythUI code to make it work-- but it's proof that nobody who is willing to *do* it is clamoring for it
[23:28:42] bsl: hell! its in the examples and demo page!!!
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[23:29:41] iamlindoro: anyway, only point to that is that the people who are constantly annoying the heck out of the channel clamoring for it are the ones who are totally incapable of the minute amount of work it would take to do it for themselves
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