Beirdobot, irc.freenode.net

Friday, June 13th, 2008, 00:00 UTC

[00:00:50]

J-e-f-f-A:

directhex/dustybin: (forgot who I was talking too...oops!) ^^^ This demo was a 'computer show' in the Mall... I had 10 people around my table at any given moment... ;-)

[00:01:21]

dustybin:

hehe

[00:01:46]

justinh:

god that sounds like lugradio live – as many as TEN people around a table?

[00:01:49]

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[00:01:56]

Andreaz:

Is there any UAE for Smartphones? :)

[00:02:14]

J-e-f-f-A:

justinh: Well, it was in a mall, not at a 'real' computer show event...

[00:02:30]

justinh:

LRL isn't a 'real' computer show event either, but I digress...

[00:02:33]

J-e-f-f-A:

The other tables had just a couple of people at them... ;-)

[00:03:44]

justinh:

hey I wasn't knocking it ;)

[00:04:11]

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[00:04:27]

J-e-f-f-A:

I really should sell my Amigas — I haven't even turned them on in over a year...

[00:04:30]

iamlindoro:

Sorrow enclosed: http://www.fecitfacta.com/Test1080.ts

[00:04:31]

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[00:04:51]

J-e-f-f-A:

Welcome back xris! ;-)

[00:07:37]

iamlindoro:

VLC on Mac OS X = FAIL

[00:11:47]

iamlindoro:

If anyone is downloading that sample let me know, I'm gonna nuke it

[00:12:23]

dustybin:

ive got VLC installed on my laptop + perian

[00:12:38]

dustybin:

none of them can play back my HD files smoothly

[00:12:57]

dustybin:

i installed mplayer on os x using mac ports, that does the best job out of all of them

[00:13:02]

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[00:14:50]

J-e-f-f-A:

iamlindoro: Is that link right?

[00:16:09]

iamlindoro:

It was until I deleted the file :)

[00:17:05]

GreyFoxx:

iam: Well, my box played that sample, but it segfaulted after a few seconds

[00:17:21]

GreyFoxx:

I'll grab a bt

[00:17:59]

iamlindoro:

Hmm... mine hasn't crashed at all. It does take a few moments before it begins to stutter over here

[00:18:46]

J-e-f-f-A:

cd ..

[00:19:02]

J-e-f-f-A:

<wrong window> ;-)

[00:19:19]

iamlindoro:

J-e-f-f-A@J-e-f-f-A-myth: /filthyporno#

[00:19:53]

J-e-f-f-A:

iamlindoro: Maybe 20 years ago... not anymore. ;-)

[00:20:29]

iamlindoro:

Phooey

[00:21:22]

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[00:30:21]

justinh:

ugh. 16 CDs burned. I think I've had enough

[00:30:48]

justinh:

average 76 mins per disc.. that must be where all my days off this week have gone

[00:32:26]

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[00:34:59]

Dagmar:

You know they make burners that can go a bit faster than that now

[00:35:31]

VanessaE:

question... as mythtv allows you to hit 'w' to override the aspect ratio/size of the incoming stream, is there a possibility of getting a per-channel setting>

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[00:35:57]

justinh:

Dagmar: 76 mins content per disc. burned at no more than 16x

[00:36:07]

Dagmar:

Ah

[00:36:22]

VanessaE:

? one of the channels in my area likes to encapsulate 4:3 SD programming inside a pre-pillarboxed 16:9 HD stream

[00:36:25]

justinh:

plus I recorded that lot from 12" singles during the week

[00:36:48]

VanessaE:

(so I have to hit "w" a couple of times to get the picture to the right size)

[00:36:51]

justinh:

I just hope it's as much fun to play out as I remember it being

[00:37:21]

VanessaE:

and btw, thanks to the developers for fixing the audio-chirping-on-bad-MPEG-stream issue :-)

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[00:43:10]

jblack:

vanessae: Scary to think what would happen if they encapsulated 4:3 on 16:9 on 4:3 on 16:9 on 4:3, no?

[00:43:32]

jblack:

a postage stamp on a checkerboard. ;)

[00:48:09]

VanessaE:

it isn't too far from that actually

[00:48:41]

jblack:

acidrip has this really neat crop detection that I wish mythtranscode had.

[00:48:47]

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[00:49:40]

VanessaE:

take a normal 16:9 stream. letterbox it to fit 4:3. Then take that and pillarbox it as if to fit a 16:9 screen. finally, mythtv takes that and letterboxes it again to fit on my 4:3 monitor.

[00:49:56]

VanessaE:

so I get this little postage stamp in the middle of a large windowbox.

[00:50:11]

VanessaE:

farking idiots at this tv station :)

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[00:51:34]

VanessaE:

oh and to make matters worse, the original movie is clearly standard def, but the broadcast stream is clearly high def. :-)

[00:51:34]

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[00:51:49]

VanessaE:

so they are multiple-boxing it and upscaling, before I even receive it

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[01:32:16]

wagner:

letter/piller boxing with a digital signal is just retarded

[01:32:35]

wagner:

its a digital signal, its guaranteed that TV knows how to handle whatever you send it

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[01:52:52]

dustybin:

http://www.spreadfirefox.com/en-US/worldrecord/

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[01:56:49]

achew22:

Does anyone know of a way to in the recorded programs to have a recorded program group or something of that sort that would just have a list of all recorded movies?

[01:59:08]

mkrufky:

dustybin: very cool — i'll get my office to download it, but please remind again the day beforehand

[02:01:07]

mkrufky:

oops... if you pledge, then mozilla will remind us

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[02:43:06]

wagner:

are they just looking for downloads from independent IP addresses? or what?

[02:43:13]

wagner:

how do they actually count it

[02:43:23]

Asa_A:

Hello, Can I get some help getting mythfrontend working on Hardy Heron with Pulse Audio? I tried http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com/200 . . . n-hardy.html but it didn't work.

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[02:45:50]

wagner:

can pulse audio achieve sufficiently low latency as to not make things awkward?

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[02:46:44]

Asa_A:

Other than with mythfrontend, I haven't had issues with PulseAudio. It plays WoW in Wine perfectly.

[02:48:18]

wagner:

i mean at even a frame of latency (40ms), youre going to be able to tell something is wrong

[02:48:53]

wagner:

of course if youre using an HDTV, it may inadvertently compensate for that

[02:49:48]

Asa_A:

Have you tried PA? and have you tried it with mythfrontend?

[02:49:59]

wagner:

ive never used PA

[02:50:36]

wagner:

i have used esound with video before, and the slight mis-sync was annoying

[02:51:17]

Asa_A:

its great if you have multiple devices, I have an onboard soundcard and a USB headset, and I can switch audio between the two.

[02:51:26]

wagner:

actually, im assuming youre using PA to feed the audio over the network

[02:51:35]

Asa_A:

no, its local

[02:51:38]

wagner:

which is an improper assumption

[02:52:39]

Asa_A:

there might be latency over the network but everything I'm doing is local, so latency isn't an issue.

[02:53:00]

wagner:

well it seems mythtv does not work with the Pulse-Alsa plugins

[02:53:11]

wagner:

however they have a patch to make it work

[02:53:41]

wagner:

http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup , search for 'MythTV'

[02:54:33]

Asa_A:

thanks, I'll see if I can get that to work.

[02:55:00]

wagner:

well you have to recompile mythtv... so well see you back in an hour or two?... :P

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[02:55:36]

Asa_A:

:)

[02:55:51]

Asa_A:

it should just be the frontend, so it shouldn't bee too bad.... I hope

[02:56:21]

wagner:

well you still have to do most of the libraries

[02:56:51]

wagner:

although last time (and first time) i tried compiling it on my dual core box, it went pretty quick

[02:59:33]

Asa_A:

What distro do you use? I'm going to try http://yokozar.livejournal.com/14389.html# (with mythtv-frontend instead of wine) so I can have my own .deb to install :)

[02:59:58]

wagner:

gentoo, i dont install anything, i build

[03:00:11]

wagner:

although the dual core box runs freebsd

[03:00:43]

Asa_A:

I used to use gentoo, but I got tired of waiting for things to compile.

[03:02:18]

wagner:

well as long as you can keep a clean box, you never have to reinstall

[03:02:22]

wagner:

just continually upgrade

[03:02:53]

wagner:

plus with portage, its the closest thing on linux to freebsd

[03:05:39]

Asa_A:

:'( it looks like that patch has already been applied on Ubuntu

[03:07:15]

wagner:

speaking of which, i should get around to upgrading my kernel

[03:09:40]

SHADOW_XX:

hmm i am having an issue with my tv tuner

[03:09:57]

SHADOW_XX:

i turn to a channel and i see stuff then it just goes to static

[03:10:16]

wagner:

what tuner?

[03:10:36]

SHADOW_XX:

pinnacle pctv 800i

[03:11:11]

SHADOW_XX:

digital still works on it

[03:11:41]

SHADOW_XX:

but for some reason analog isnt

[03:13:25]

wagner:

this is a... frame grabber with audio?

[03:13:39]

SHADOW_XX:

yes hybrid hd card

[03:13:50]

wagner:

well frame grabber vs. mpeg encoder

[03:14:03]

SHADOW_XX:

frame grabber

[03:15:29]

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[03:15:50]

wagner:

i was going to suggest accessing the feed directly, but i assume its not that easy with a frame grabber

[03:16:00]

wagner:

maybe try using it in VLC and seeing if you have the same issue

[03:16:26]

wagner:

or mplayer, something other than myth that can use the card

[03:18:01]

SHADOW_XX:

hmm alright

[03:18:15]

SHADOW_XX:

how do i access it in vlc

[03:18:26]

SHADOW_XX:

or mplayer

[03:18:35]

wagner:

dont know, ive only ever used mpeg cards, where you can just cat the dev node directly to a file

[03:20:23]

SHADOW_XX:

how do you play with a mpeg card

[03:21:28]

wagner:

well you have to use some program to tune the card, but after that, 'cat /dev/v4l/video0 > file' gives you a perfectly valid mpeg2 file

[03:24:53]

SHADOW_XX:

hm

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[03:27:18]

SHADOW_XX:

it does the same thing it start displaying the channel then goes out

[03:27:39]

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[03:27:55]

SHADOW_XX:

so is that the driver

[03:27:55]

SHADOW_XX:

?

[03:28:09]

wagner:

driver or card

[03:28:25]

SHADOW_XX:

the card was working fine for me for months in windows

[03:28:38]

SHADOW_XX:

and even earlier today it wasnt giving me that issue on linux either

[03:29:14]

SHADOW_XX:

i am wondering whether i should blacklist 2 modules that maybe interfering

[03:29:52]

wagner:

well that driver gets added to the next kernel, so its supposedly pretty stable

[03:31:31]

SHADOW_XX:

Remove outdated/incompatible v4l drivers with these three commands:

[03:31:31]

SHADOW_XX:

sudo rm -rf /lib/modules/`uname -r`/ubuntu/media/cx88

[03:31:31]

SHADOW_XX:

sudo rm -rf /lib/modules/`uname -r`/ubuntu/media/saa7134

[03:31:31]

SHADOW_XX:

sudo depmod -a

[03:32:44]

SHADOW_XX:

yeah i have read that its going to be in 24

[03:32:52]

SHADOW_XX:

which would be nice

[03:33:02]

wagner:

25, 24 is the current kernel

[03:33:17]

SHADOW_XX:

oh sorry about that

[03:33:44]

SHADOW_XX:

its kinda moving away from being minnimal though

[03:33:46]

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[03:34:10]

SHADOW_XX:

i might have to start compiling my own kernels again although that ran into problems with one of my p3 comps

[03:34:34]

SHADOW_XX:

stupid p3 board lets the processor get to over 168 before it starts to speed up the fan

[03:35:05]

wagner:

with a decent heatsink, a P3 shouldnt be able to get to 168F, even without a fan

[03:35:33]

SHADOW_XX:

laptop

[03:35:37]

wagner:

their TDP is 27W, meaning under load, most of them wont hit over 20W

[03:35:53]

SHADOW_XX:

yeah i know but some manufactorers are dumb

[03:36:21]

SHADOW_XX:

i have various other p3s that dont have an issue

[03:36:29]

SHADOW_XX:

that one laptop just likes to implode if i let it

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[03:44:15]

SHADOW_XX:

since the framegrabber didnt give me the best qulaity in windows ill just ad the pvr 1800 to my list to get

[03:44:24]

SHADOW_XX:

that should give me good quality right

[03:44:56]

wagner:

ive had no complaints with mine (PVR-150)

[03:45:06]

SHADOW_XX:

hows the quality

[03:45:14]

SHADOW_XX:

just like the tv quality no stic ?

[03:45:26]

SHADOW_XX:

does it look like you where using a stb

[03:45:30]

SHADOW_XX:

static*

[03:45:47]

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[03:50:35]

jamesd__:

why is anyone buying a analog tuner at this point, digital is going to be the only working solution in a few months.

[03:51:24]

cecil:

perhaps they are getting a ADC set top box...

[03:51:36]

wagner:

jamesd__: do you have cable?

[03:51:47]

jamesd__:

nope

[03:52:10]

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[03:52:12]

wagner:

cecil: you want people to buy an analog card, and then buy a ~$50 to be able to use the card?

[03:52:14]

jamesd__:

i spent what i would on cable for a month and bought a digital tuner card and i am so much farther ahead

[03:52:24]

cecil:

wagner: I don't care what people buy

[03:52:25]

wagner:

anyway, cable is going to pump out analog for some time to come

[03:52:33]

cecil:

it is their money

[03:53:17]

wagner:

anyway, analog tuners will only not work for broadcast

[03:53:27]

wagner:

they will still work for cable and video capture

[03:53:53]

jamesd__:

okay bed time... 5am comes early.

[03:54:13]

SHADOW_XX:

yup

[03:55:15]

whoDat_:

can i use an ir blaster for lirc on a ps/2 port if i have a seriel to ps/2 adapter?

[03:55:46]

wagner:

no

[03:59:38]

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[04:03:59]

SHADOW_XX:

has anyone had problems watching dvds on myth before

[04:10:56]

wagner:

never tried

[04:14:28]

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[04:21:22]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: yes

[04:21:30]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: you have multiple options

[04:21:59]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: you can use the Internal, mplayer, xine, VLC, or whatever

[04:23:40]

SHADOW_XX:

hmm

[04:23:49]

SHADOW_XX:

is this for dvd playback

[04:24:08]

cecil:

ahhh... isn't that what you asked about?

[04:24:13]

cecil:

yes, it is

[04:24:28]

SHADOW_XX:

if thats to check tv

[04:24:33]

SHADOW_XX:

then yeah i use tvtime

[04:24:37]

SHADOW_XX:

i know there are others

[04:24:41]

SHADOW_XX:

it did the same thing

[04:25:27]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: sorry, nevermind

[04:25:30]

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[04:26:29]

SHADOW_XX:

its ok

[04:26:30]

SHADOW_XX:

lol

[04:31:50]

SHADOW_XX:

my mythtv doesnt seem to be flagging commercials

[04:32:00]

SHADOW_XX:

is there away i can change that

[04:33:23]

cecil:

tell it to

[04:33:27]

cecil:

it is in the settings

[04:33:35]

SHADOW_XX:

i thought it was automatic

[04:35:23]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: I cannot recall

[04:35:38]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: it is something that we do automatically setup for KnoppMyth users

[04:35:53]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: I don't recall if MythTV does it automatically

[04:36:06]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: like I said, it is in the settings

[04:36:26]

wagner:

as far as i remember, its a default operation for scheduled recordings

[04:36:27]

SHADOW_XX:

hmm ok i eed to find it

[04:36:35]

wagner:

it does it automatically for me

[04:36:45]

wagner:

you set it up in the recording options

[04:36:50]

SHADOW_XX:

i am using mythbuntu

[04:37:22]

cecil:

SHADOW_XX: couldn't tell you

[04:37:22]

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[04:43:04]

SHADOW_XX:

hmm

[04:43:15]

SHADOW_XX:

is there a way i can get it to rerun on an episode

[04:44:33]

SHADOW_XX:

nvm i found it

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tetaflop:

w00t

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[05:58:33]

PaulWay:

Hi all!

[05:59:47]

PaulWay:

I've just got a second tuner that's exactly the same make and model as the first (a bt878 based tuner) – is there anything special I have to do to get this working?

[05:59:58]

PaulWay:

Because at the moment I only get one device showing up.

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[06:25:51]

purserj:

PaulWay: is the second tuner being detected by the OS?

[06:26:08]

purserj:

as in do you /dev/video0 and /dev/video1?

[06:26:45]

PaulWay:

No, no /dev/dvb/adapter1

[06:26:54]

PaulWay:

AFAICS in dmesg only one tuner is being detected.

[06:27:21]

PaulWay:

(i.e. only /dev/dvb/adapter0)

[06:27:55]

anykey_:

bt878 are not dvb

[06:28:28]

directhex:

anykey_, there are a small number of early bt878 dvb cards, iirc

[06:29:12]

anykey_:

oh, ignore me then

[06:29:26]

directhex:

e.g. ChainTech DTT 1000

[06:29:37]

PaulWay:

"bttv0: Bt878 (rev 17) at 0000:01:07.0, irq: 20, latency: 32, mmio: 0xd8000000"

[06:33:23]

PaulWay:

I've just installed mkusky's dvb tree and am rebooting to see if that makes any difference (newer drivers)

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[06:42:06]

PaulWay:

Nope, still only one.

[06:44:15]

PaulWay:

Do I have to do something in modprobe.conf to tell it to find the second?

[06:44:33]

PaulWay:

I suspect bad things because I

[06:44:41]

PaulWay:

I'm only seeing one card in lspci.

[06:45:03]

PaulWay:

I've tried moving the cards around.

[06:46:40]

fryfrog:

PaulWay: if you remove one, does it show up?

[06:46:44]

fryfrog:

swap, still show up?

[06:46:55]

PaulWay:

Good idea – will try.

[06:49:05]

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[07:04:41]

PaulWay:

fryfrog: well, that's disturbing – the card that was previously working is now not showing up.

[07:04:50]

** PaulWay goes and tests the other card. **

[07:18:31]

PaulWay:

Yay, I must have jostled the old card – reseated it and they're both working fine now.

[07:18:41]

PaulWay:

Thanks for helping me check my assumptions, fryfrog!

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[07:37:57]

PaulWay:

Weird.

[07:38:35]

PaulWay:

I've got the two tuner cards, they're both set up in mythbackend, I've done a mythfilldatabase and the updated schedule shows it'll use two tuner cards.

[07:39:01]

PaulWay:

But I can't get it to use a second tuner card now – watching live tv on one machine and trying to watch live tv on another.

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[08:30:22]

Ace2016:

Hi all

[08:30:37]

Ace2016:

can someone find a link to a set of mythtv menu screenshots

[08:31:04]

Ace2016:

i'm trying to make a theme

[08:34:08]

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[08:34:17]

justinh:

many have tried. few have succeeded

[08:34:39]

justinh:

just take your own screenshots anyway

[08:34:50]

justinh:

you'll need to do that at some point

[08:35:55]

sid3wind1 is now known as sid3windr

[08:44:11]

Ace2016:

so you cannot take screenshots of mythtv???

[08:44:44]

Ace2016:

is it because of hardware overlays and stuff?

[08:44:51]

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[08:45:43]

justinh:

where did I say that?

[08:46:01]

justinh:

it's piss easy to take a screenshot of mythtv menus. do it yourself

[08:46:13]

justinh:

many have tried to make themes. few have made good ones

[08:46:17]

Ace2016:

oh right

[08:46:35]

Ace2016:

i can do the cool looking theme, the coding will probably be where i fail

[08:46:43]

justinh:

coding?

[08:46:47]

justinh:

what coding?

[08:47:27]

Ace2016:

coding the theme

[08:47:32]

Ace2016:

the xml file

[08:47:46]

justinh:

if I can do it, anybody can

[08:49:01]

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[08:49:08]

justinh:

for what it's worth though I wouldn't bother making a theme until the mythui porting work is finished

[08:49:17]

justinh:

a lot is going to change

[08:49:33]

Ace2016:

yea but its going to take a while

[08:49:42]

justinh:

not as long as you think!

[08:50:09]

Ace2016:

the end of summer at least

[08:50:19]

Ace2016:

so august/september

[08:50:45]

justinh:

so you'll just make a theme & then not update it? sounds like me lol

[08:50:53]

Ace2016:

yup

[08:51:01]

Ace2016:

i'm going to stick with the current mythtv version

[08:52:52]

justinh:

well, good luck

[08:55:00]

Ace2016:

Thanks

[08:55:30]

justinh:

need any help figuring out the xml I'll probably be able to help

[08:56:11]

justinh:

menu xml is dead easy really, it's the other screens that are the pain in the arse

[08:57:00]

Ace2016:

thanks

[08:57:29]

justinh:

just don't make anything shite like leafers-wide

[08:58:56]

Ace2016:

can't even find a screenshot of it

[08:59:08]

justinh:

maybe that's a good thing

[08:59:32]

Ace2016:

but i want to see it now

[09:02:11]

justinh:

it's the best example of a truly awful theme I've ever seen

[09:03:08]

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[09:03:15]

Ace2016:

its never that bad

[09:03:22]

justinh:

oh yes

[09:04:09]

justinh:

looks like all evidence of it has disappeared from the net. heh

[09:05:36]

justinh:

here's one I've got in the air at the moment: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/justin.hornsby2/gw/

[09:05:37]

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[09:05:42]

justinh:

different backgrounds can be used

[09:06:13]

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[09:07:11]

Ace2016:

nice theme

[09:09:18]

justinh:

I like it. that's all that counts

[09:09:47]

justinh:

I might even finish it one day. might even release it sometime!

[09:10:11]

sid3windr:

yup, looks neat

[09:10:20]

sid3windr:

but you fouled up the spelling of "program" *scnr*

[09:10:23]

justinh:

menus are easy

[09:11:26]

justinh:

and I think you'll find *I* didn't foul anything up. I use the PROPER ENGLISH language setting in mythfrontend :P

[09:11:33]

sid3windr:

:D

[09:12:06]

justinh:

american spellings are almost enough to stop me using software

[09:12:57]

justinh:

if the GB translation hadn't been done for mythtv I might've done it myself

[09:18:15]

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[09:50:49]

fryfrog:

hey, did the new haupagge device get going in myth / linux yet?

[09:50:59]

fryfrog:

that usb h264 component input device?

[09:51:10]

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[09:51:30]

justinh:

yes

[09:51:39]

justinh:

er.. in linux it did

[09:51:40]

fryfrog:

nice

[09:51:51]

fryfrog:

ah, but not quite yet supported in myth?

[09:51:57]

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[09:52:15]

fryfrog:

http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html

[09:52:15]

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[09:52:19]

fryfrog:

that is ^^ right?

[09:52:38]

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[09:52:40]

justinh:

yeah

[09:54:21]

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[09:54:56]

justinh:

people have found that the resultant stream isn't encoded in slices though – effectively nixing any multithreaded playback

[09:55:56]

fryfrog:

i don't know much about hd formats, but that doesn't sound so great :/

[09:56:29]

justinh:

it's not

[09:57:20]

justinh:

iamlindoro said last night he found a 6mbit/sec 1080i h.264 recorded from his hdpvr wouldn't play on his machine

[09:57:27]

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[09:58:28]

asmussen:

What kind of CPU?

[09:58:53]

asmussen:

And was he using ffmpeg or coreavc?

[09:59:02]

fryfrog:

wow

[10:00:34]

justinh:

coreavc doesn't offer any real advantage anymore

[10:00:44]

quicksilver:

presumably you can reencode in principle?

[10:01:03]

justinh:

yeah

[10:01:13]

asmussen:

Why doesn't it?

[10:01:51]

justinh:

"iamlindoro: Well... everyone back to NewEgg, my E4500 can kinda sorta play the single-sliced 6Mbit 1080i captures from the HD-PVR"

[10:02:19]

asmussen:

I thought the multi-threaded only for multiple slices thing was an ffmpeg limitation. Can coreavc not utilize multiple cores to playback these streams either?

[10:02:24]

fryfrog:

i wonder if that can be remidied with/in the device?

[10:02:56]

justinh:

might just be an early driver issue causing the encoding to be in single slices

[10:03:19]

justinh:

asmussen: anyway maybe he doesn't want to pay to play

[10:04:23]

asmussen:

If he doesn't that's cool. I'm just trying to figure out the facts.

[10:04:35]

asmussen:

Personally, I'l spring for the coreavc if it helps. It's only $15.

[10:05:14]

justinh:

is that all it is?

[10:05:17]

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[10:05:30]

justinh:

saying that, for it to work with mythtv there's a messy hack you have to do

[10:05:33]

asmussen:

Yeah, $15 for the professional edition.

[10:06:05]

asmussen:

You're right. It's kind of messy because of the way you have to cram it in, but if it let me playback H.264 on a system that couldn't handle it otherwise, I'd still do it.

[10:06:08]

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[10:06:52]

asmussen:

Not everybody will want to screw with it of course.

[10:07:43]

fryfrog:

man, i really hope swapping out my old xeon board resolves some of the issues my server is having

[10:07:43]

justinh:

maybe all the promising looking SoC projects will pay off this year

[10:07:55]

asmussen:

That'd be cool.

[10:08:15]

justinh:

threaded playback of non-sliced stuff for ffmpeg, for example :)

[10:08:43]

justinh:

I saw somebody say in here the other day that he found coreavc wasn't a magic bullet in his experience though

[10:09:52]

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[10:10:07]

asmussen:

Yeah, I'm not really sure how much difference it makes. I'm kind of hoping that with the hd-pvr nearing readiness that some people who try it out will share their experiences.

[10:11:02]

asmussen:

Even if it isn't a magic bullet, it might still make some otherwise marginal hardware setups make the cut for playback.

[10:11:47]

justinh:

apparently it's no use compared to ffmpeg on some things

[10:12:28]

asmussen:

As in, for some H.264 streams, it's no faster than ffmpeg?

[10:12:50]

justinh:

as in, for some h.264 streams it's *worse* than ffmpeg

[10:12:59]

asmussen:

eek

[10:13:25]

justinh:

I think the bottom line is here that people have got to start thinking about making investments & not using the least they think/read they can get away with

[10:13:41]

justinh:

no more Via EPIA shite :D

[10:14:04]

asmussen:

Well, I wasn't thinking so much of people trying to buy the least amount of hardware by using coreavc. I was thinking more along the lines of people being able to get by with hardware that they already owned.

[10:14:26]

justinh:

transcode it to 40mbit mpeg2 :D

[10:14:30]

asmussen:

heh

[10:15:03]

justinh:

hate to think how bad 6mbit 1080i looks, even in h.264

[10:16:43]

justinh:

I'm just wondering how 'worth the hassle' HDTV really is. It doesn't seem all that appealing to me right now

[10:17:04]

fryfrog:

DiscoveryHD makes it all worth it, to me

[10:17:22]

justinh:

there are only so many nature docs can hold my interest

[10:17:24]

fryfrog:

especially the planet earth series, i'll buy an hd player and those disks

[10:18:14]

fryfrog:

there are some good shows worth seeing in HD i think too

[10:18:28]

fryfrog:

Lost in HD was very pretty

[10:19:02]

fryfrog:

though sometimes i'd like to do an abx test and see if i can tell the diff between a dvd and x264 720p encode

[10:20:17]

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[10:20:29]

quicksilver:

I agree.

[10:20:39]

quicksilver:

i've blown up decent quality DVDs to 8foot on a projector

[10:20:49]

quicksilver:

and it looks pretty sharp to me, on a good projector.

[10:20:59]

justinh:

get your eyes tested? ;)

[10:21:04]

quicksilver:

I would be interested to see how different HD would actually be, to a good quality SD image.

[10:21:14]

quicksilver:

justinh: it's a fair response.

[10:21:27]

quicksilver:

but, if my eyes really are incapable of telling, then it certainly isn't worth my money to buy HD kit :)

[10:21:43]

justinh:

having seen Sky HD in shops I really can't see what all the fuss is about. it looks amazing when nothing moves but after that...

[10:21:55]

quicksilver:

One of the differences which is very obvious to me look at HD kit in shops, is that it's much sharper.

[10:22:05]

justinh:

BBC HD has way less noticable blocking than freeview but that's about it

[10:22:05]

quicksilver:

As such it really shows the deficiencies of SD DVB content

[10:22:29]

quicksilver:

the mpeg artefacts are much less noticeable on a nice soft (blurry) CRT SD TV.

[10:22:29]

fryfrog:

compression, to cram more channels in... it sure doesn't make things beautiful :(

[10:22:32]

justinh:

quicksilver: SD DVB-T is a massive step down from analogue TV

[10:22:43]

quicksilver:

justinh: yes, I know. but even so.

[10:22:43]

justinh:

and it's only going to get worse :(

[10:22:53]

justinh:

much, much worse :( :(

[10:22:58]

quicksilver:

my point is that video encoding artefacts are reduced by soft displays.

[10:23:00]

justinh:

MUCH worse :(

[10:23:10]

quicksilver:

and SD CRTs are very soft (even blurry).

[10:23:20]

quicksilver:

whereas new HD TVs tend to be very sharp, like computer screens.

[10:23:33]

justinh:

harsh, you mean ;)

[10:23:45]

quicksilver:

so when you see shops playing SD content on their big HDTVs it looks really nasty.

[10:24:12]

quicksilver:

The big tescos home plus has a bunch of HDTVs which it feeds by an underpowered analog signal which has been split 40 ways

[10:24:15]

justinh:

Sky HD looks just as nasty IMHO

[10:24:16]

quicksilver:

(to show on 40 TVs)

[10:24:24]

justinh:

quicksilver: my local tesco shows BBC HD

[10:24:24]

quicksilver:

that's really quite funny :)

[10:24:45]

quicksilver:

justinh: yes. They are showing BBC HD which they have decoded once, converted to analog and split to 40 TVs.

[10:24:45]

justinh:

I've virtually burnt my nose on screens & not seen any blocking

[10:24:55]

quicksilver:

;)

[10:25:04]

quicksilver:

so it's blurry, fuzzy, and even has poor signal lines

[10:25:07]

justinh:

not looking at the quality on show in my local one

[10:25:20]

justinh:

looks like the real thing

[10:25:31]

quicksilver:

(they must be running it over RF, because it shows diagonal fuzz lines on some of them)

[10:25:40]

justinh:

oh ffs :)

[10:25:47]

quicksilver:

however, they do also have a couple hooked up directly to bluray players

[10:25:52]

quicksilver:

that's a totally different story.

[10:25:54]

quicksilver:

they look nice.

[10:26:05]

justinh:

bbc hd is on all the flat panels in my local tesco

[10:26:25]

justinh:

does look nice. but one channel? how many shows? what difficulty playing it?

[10:26:46]

justinh:

ooooh so ITVHD is on now too. yay. fucking I T V :-\

[10:28:37]

justinh:

I find it funny that a guy at work rabbits on about the awesomeness of his HDTV all the time yet when I talk about shows we've watched he's missed a lot of the plot

[10:28:59]

justinh:

"yeah, and that bit where XYZ happened" and he's like WHAT?!

[10:29:02]

quicksilver:

justinh: is freesat and interesting option? Do you get a standard DVB-S signal you can plug into a standard DVB-S card?

[10:29:13]

justinh:

it's DVB-s for the time being

[10:29:32]

quicksilver:

and it has most of the useful channels non-encrippled?

[10:29:50]

justinh:

freesat is mildly interesting but not worth going to all the effort of cutting down a tree & fitting a dish to the house

[10:30:10]

justinh:

no, freesat doesn't have the best of freeview channels

[10:30:15]

justinh:

yet

[10:30:22]

** quicksilver nods **

[10:31:09]

justinh:

I've only watch about 90 mins worth of TV this week

[10:31:12]

justinh:

*watched

[10:31:17]

justinh:

if that

[10:31:42]

justinh:

starting to watch less & less now if anything

[10:33:37]

justinh:

just watching stuff for the sake of something to do – those days have long gone :)

[10:35:56]

quicksilver:

yes, I don't watch much TV

[10:36:03]

quicksilver:

technology is a habit.

[10:36:12]

quicksilver:

it's like PS2 games, I buy them but don't play them.

[10:36:29]

quicksilver:

the habit is getting good deals on games I know to be good.

[10:36:39]

justinh:

tech stopped being a habit for me when I bought a house

[10:36:57]

justinh:

tempted to buy a new DJ toy though

[10:39:17]

fryfrog:

dj as in records and mixers and such?

[10:40:14]

justinh:

aye. officially out of retirement now

[10:40:56]

directhex:

so the evening went well?

[10:41:22]

justinh:

hasn't happened yet :P

[10:41:49]

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[10:41:52]

justinh:

even if it's only for one night I'm still our of retirement

[10:42:01]

justinh:

s/our/out

[10:47:25]

justinh:

giving up the day job wouldn't be a bad idea if I thought for a minute I could get away with it

[10:49:34]

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[11:29:15]

EvilGuru:

In mythweb the upcoming recordings list has both "Recorded" and "Duplicate" as the status of programmes. What is the difference?

[11:29:46]

justinh:

good $deity! an interesting question!

[11:30:03]

justinh:

now you've asked that, I'd like to know too :)

[11:30:57]

EvilGuru:

my $deity = myself;

[11:35:05]

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[11:43:37]

EvilGuru:

http://mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-dev/2008-June/062236.html& nbsp;— neat, ReplayGain support in MythMusic

[11:52:43]

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[11:53:45]

Dagmar:

Mmm.... fun

[11:54:13]

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[11:54:38]

Dagmar:

justinh: Wow. I have a great epic fail over here

[11:55:20]

Dagmar:

I noticed Google *somehow* got pointed at the port my mythweb was on, so I decided to check something

[11:55:44]

Dagmar:

Let's just say you never want that to happen to yer mythweb

[11:56:28]

Dagmar:

There's a difference between POST and SUBMIT I suspect that MythWeb isn't wholly on board with

[11:56:55]

justinh:

ok

[11:56:58]

Dagmar:

Google iteratively deleted all the recordings (like I care, I'm blowing the fs away twice a week already)...

[11:57:04]

Dagmar:

...and then marked most of it as not to record

[11:57:12]

justinh:

jeebus

[11:57:19]

Dagmar:

Yeah I'm still chuckling

[11:57:37]

Dagmar:

It's just following what look like links to it. :)

[11:59:26]

justinh:

if anything is worth a ticket.. that'd be it!

[12:00:05]

justinh:

so er.. your mythweb isn't protected then?

[12:00:10]

Dagmar:

Oh it is now

[12:00:13]

Dagmar:

It was *before*

[12:00:25]

Dagmar:

I was just curious about what would happen because I had an inkling it might be insanity

[12:00:33]

justinh:

so how ...?

[12:00:42]

Dagmar:

Tehre's an article someone put into Memestreams a few weeks ago I'm trying to find now

[12:01:04]

Dagmar:

About how there's a difference between POST and SUBMIT and web apps are flirting with disaster when they get it wrong

[12:01:05]

justinh:

might be what happened to all the unsecured mythwebs google has indexed actually

[12:01:27]

Ace2016:

Anyone have some time to take some screenshots for me of the mythtv menu?

[12:01:29]

Dagmar:

One of the two, I can't remember which, is actually *not* supposed to change any state in the app

[12:01:37]

Ace2016:

i can't get to the tv section without a tv card

[12:01:54]

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[12:01:54]

Dagmar:

If you dont have a tv card then you probably shoudln't bother installing MythTV

[12:02:17]

Ace2016:

-_-

[12:02:25]

Ace2016:

its in transit

[12:02:37]

Dagmar:

er get and post not post and submit

[12:02:38]

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[12:02:47]

PaulWay:

You can still use it to manage your videos and music...

[12:03:16]

justinh:

I wouldn't bother tbh

[12:03:22]

Dagmar:

Ah here's something tho http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/methods.html

[12:03:36]

Dagmar:

"Alan Flavell has explained, in an article in a thread titled Limit on URL length in the newsgroup comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, that "the distinction [between GET and POST] is a real one, and has been observed by some browser makers, which can result in undesirable consequences if the inappropriate one is used"."

[12:04:09]

Dagmar:

"A script which processes a form submission sent with the "GET" could cause a pizza ordering. It's just that authors are expected to take care that such things don't happen."

[12:04:42]

Dagmar:

grep GET access_log | grep google | wc -l ... 5733

[12:04:50]

Dagmar:

lol

[12:05:39]

Dagmar:

Wow yah I'll look closely at the pages it generates and submit a bug report tomorrow.

[12:09:48]

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[12:13:34]

Dagmar:

Joy. <a href="/mythweb/tv/upcoming/1057/1213401600?dontrec=yes" title="Do not record this specific showing.">Don't Record</a>

[12:15:49]

justinh:

wait a sec I think there's already a ticket for that

[12:16:59]

justinh:

http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/2517

[12:17:05]

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[12:17:42]

justinh:

wontfix !

[12:19:40]

quicksilver:

wontfix because xris doesn't know how to make a form submit by a link.

[12:19:42]

quicksilver:

*sigh*.

[12:20:15]

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[12:20:58]

webclient:

hi guys I am trying to play music through mythweb and I can see all the music as it was when it last scanned for music; is there some way I can make mythtv re-scan for music? I only have SSH and web access to the box

[12:21:55]

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[12:23:04]

justinh:

webclient: nope

[12:23:32]

webclient:

there is no way or you dont know ?

[12:24:10]

justinh:

there is no way

[12:24:31]

webclient:

how about using telnet? isn't there a way to pass commands to mythtv using telnet?

[12:24:49]

justinh:

yep

[12:25:37]

webclient:

is that feature installed by default or should I install an additional package

[12:25:42]

justinh:

no commands to do that as such though – you'd have to send 'kepresses'

[12:26:02]

webclient:

ah

[12:26:19]

justinh:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Telnet_socket

[12:26:40]

webclient:

cheers

[12:26:55]

justinh:

that's the free one of the day all gone now

[12:28:15]

webclient:

connection refused on 6546

[12:28:54]

justinh:

you need to enable it in the settings page & restart mythfrontend

[12:29:54]

webclient:

lol... and I guess there is no way of doing that via ssh

[12:30:16]

justinh:

freenx :)

[12:31:01]

webclient:

true... guess ill set that up

[12:33:16]

justinh:

just read my scrollback.. is Ace2016 for real?!

[12:33:48]

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[12:34:13]

Ace2016:

am i for real?

[12:34:15]

Ace2016:

huh?

[12:34:39]

justinh:

asking people to help & post screenshots for you? wtf planet are you on?

[12:35:00]

Ace2016:

yea i guess it is asking too much

[12:35:40]

justinh:

if you're not willing to put a little bit of work like that in, I don't suppose you'll enjoy theming much

[12:36:43]

Ace2016:

its not that, just don't want to wait for the system to be built before i do the theme

[12:37:50]

justinh:

so do some mockups first. I never start a theme by editing a theme

[12:38:06]

justinh:

decide how it's going to look before you start. planning saves fuckloads of time

[12:38:21]

Ace2016:

oh i could have asked for a list of the stuff in the menus duh

[12:38:45]

Ace2016:

i know how it will look, just need to know what icons are needed for what

[12:38:52]

justinh:

dissect a theme like mepo-wide. every possible mythtv screen is themed

[12:39:02]

webclient:

I have my flat mate on the phone, can someone tell me where in the menu to scan for new music ?

[12:39:03]

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[12:39:05]

justinh:

I never bothered doing *every* screen

[12:39:25]

webclient:

nm found it

[12:39:26]

justinh:

webclient: if he can't find it, he's retarded

[12:41:32]

justinh:

Ace2016: find and have a read of buttontypes.txt

[12:42:12]

Ace2016:

locate didn't find a buttontypes.txt

[12:42:31]

justinh:

http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/browser/branches/r . . . on_types.txt

[12:42:57]

justinh:

that tells you what all the buttons are called – maybe not all but the vasty majority of them

[12:43:02]

justinh:

*vast

[12:43:31]

justinh:

there's no such doc for 'types' yet though

[12:43:58]

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[12:44:03]

justinh:

'types' are the graphics (and soon text) which can be shown on each menu and are unique to each menu screen

[12:45:22]

Ace2016:

thanks

[12:47:37]

justinh:

btw if you really want to do a theme, don't stop at the menu screens

[12:47:53]

justinh:

it's loads more work but worth it

[12:48:16]

justinh:

other things to bear in mind are – if you can use anything more than once do so – it'll save memory

[12:49:08]

justinh:

images are all stored in ram, scaled to the current resolution, so big images take lots of memory

[12:50:21]

Ace2016:

they are saved to the hard disk right?

[12:50:32]

Ace2016:

i mean it'd have to scale at each reboot if it was only stored in ram

[12:51:04]

justinh:

yeh they're cached on disk to save rescaling

[12:51:22]

justinh:

don't use jpeg or gif either :)

[12:51:39]

justinh:

neither will save RAM, and gifs look gash

[12:52:40]

justinh:

and neither has proper transparency

[12:53:15]

Ace2016:

i use png when i can

[12:53:38]

Ace2016:

wait a sec

[12:53:45]

Ace2016:

what if i did a very high resolution png file?

[12:53:52]

Ace2016:

so it'd still be 800x600

[12:53:59]

Ace2016:

but at like 2000dpi

[12:54:15]

justinh:

dpi is irrelevant in PNG afaik

[12:54:16]

Ace2016:

so if it was on a massive display it'd look great

[12:54:20]

Ace2016:

oh

[12:54:20]

justinh:

resolution is everything

[12:55:10]

justinh:

the base resolution of 4:3 themes is still 800x600 by default so no matter what size you make your images, anything fullscreen size will still only be scaled to 800x600

[12:55:40]

justinh:

maybe that came out wrong

[12:58:01]

Ace2016:

that didn't make much sense

[12:58:18]

justinh:

you're right it didn't :P

[12:58:44]

justinh:

no real point in making 4:3 themes anyway

[12:59:03]

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[12:59:40]

Ace2016:

unless i plan to watch on a 4:3 device

[13:00:06]

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[13:00:29]

justinh:

well, that's up to you of course

[13:00:49]

justinh:

not forgetting there are still people out there in redneck hillbilly land with 4:3 displays ahoy

[13:01:09]

sid3windr:

heh

[13:01:34]

justinh:

the guy who sent me abusive emails about discontinuing support of some of my themes was 4:3 user. c***

[13:01:49]

sid3windr:

well HOW DARE YOU

[13:02:05]

justinh:

yeah how dare I make choices

[13:04:07]

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[13:04:26]

justinh:

I was talking to a colleague earlier this afternoon about open source stuff. he used to develop OSS things but ended up quitting because of all the whining users. just aswell for everybody, not all devs are cantankerous wankers with short fuses eh

[13:04:48]

Ace2016:

i'm planning to use a "21 crt as a TV

[13:05:12]

Ace2016:

they are very cheap and the video quality is far better than most expensive televisions on the market

[13:06:19]

justinh:

good for showing the shortcomings of SDTV eh

[13:06:31]

justinh:

pity about the aspect ratio though

[13:07:26]

Ace2016:

HDTV for me (well i hope)

[13:07:57]

justinh:

on a 4:3 screen? er...

[13:08:11]

Ace2016:

yup

[13:08:27]

Ace2016:

maybe the old can be put on the remaining screen space

[13:08:31]

Ace2016:

osd*

[13:09:22]

justinh:

starting to sounds like linuxmce – that looks like it needs a quad screen setup – one for the video & 3 for the UI

[13:09:31]

sid3windr:

:]

[13:10:53]

Ace2016:

well i wanted to try linuxmce right up untill they said the menus were coded into the theme

[13:10:58]

Ace2016:

i think thats what they said

[13:11:12]

Ace2016:

at least i know its hard to remove the options i do not use

[13:11:37]

Ace2016:

and i needed HA Designer to make the theme so i gave up

[13:14:01]

justinh:

heh

[13:14:22]

justinh:

btw one tip which'll save you a LOT of time:

[13:14:32]

justinh:

killall mythfrontend -USR1

[13:14:44]

justinh:

that forces a theme reload

[13:15:51]

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[13:16:27]

Ace2016:

-USR1?

[13:16:30]

Ace2016:

what does that do?

[13:18:21]

GreyFoxx:

"[10:14am]<justinh> that forces a theme reload"

[13:18:41]

Ace2016:

well killall kills stuff

[13:18:52]

GreyFoxx:

no, it sends a kill signal

[13:19:03]

GreyFoxx:

if you don't specify the signal it sends a SIGTERM to terminate

[13:19:05]

justinh:

*kill* kills stuff

[13:19:05]

Ace2016:

does killing it force mythtv to reload it or is it something special with the -USR?

[13:19:12]

GreyFoxx:

but now you are sending a SIGUSR1

[13:19:29]

sid3windr:

justinh: ho, it sends a kill signal ;)

[13:19:44]

sid3windr:

s/ho/no/

[13:20:04]

Mode for #mythtv-users by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. : +v GreyFoxx

[13:20:23]

Ace2016:

GreyFoxx: weren't you talking a minute ago?

[13:20:33]

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[13:20:43]

GreyFoxx:

ACE: kill can send a variety of signals to a program, and in this case myth reacts to the USR1 and does a theme reload

[13:20:46]

Ace2016:

why did chanserv give you permission?

[13:20:59]

GreyFoxx:

Because I identified myself to nickserv

[13:21:04]

Ace2016:

oh ok

[13:21:05]

GreyFoxx:

and I have auto voice in here

[13:21:34]

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[13:22:32]

GreyFoxx:

on the mythbackend a -USR1 forces a rebuild of the upnp video list for videos available via upnp

[13:22:47]

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[13:23:40]

** GreyFoxx is still on the hunt for a upnp client that supports the scheduling and videoBroadcast part of the spec for testing **

[13:24:57]

justinh:

that'll blow the door open to affordable lightweight hd frontends (I hope) – but still none will be able to time mangle

[13:25:22]

GreyFoxx:

the ps3 seems to have some timestretch ability

[13:25:37]

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[13:25:46]

justinh:

wouldn't call a ps3 affordable :)

[13:25:48]

Ace2016:

timestretch?

[13:26:09]

justinh:

watching recorded shows faster or slower than realtime

[13:26:16]

GreyFoxx:

variable playback speeds without making everyone sounds like chipmunks :)

[13:26:25]

justinh:

up to 2x

[13:26:30]

Ace2016:

cool

[13:26:38]

GreyFoxx:

I watch a lot of stuff at 1.3x

[13:26:41]

justinh:

my wife's soaps play at up to 1.5x

[13:26:56]

Ace2016:

is it better slower?

[13:27:10]

GreyFoxx:

That would be up to you

[13:27:12]

justinh:

goes down to 0.5x

[13:27:17]

GreyFoxx:

I prefer to get through a show faster :)

[13:27:19]

Ace2016:

countdown will never be the same again

[13:27:22]

GreyFoxx:

some shows that is

[13:27:39]

justinh:

channel 5's gadget show on 2x :D

[13:27:45]

Ace2016:

that would help actually, the really boring bits could be skipped

[13:27:52]

Ace2016:

why watch that slower?

[13:28:06]

justinh:

2x isn't slower

[13:28:13]

GreyFoxx:

With commercial skipping, and timestretch you can whip through an hour show in like 30 minutes or so heh

[13:28:27]

GreyFoxx:

2 x realtime

[13:28:29]

GreyFoxx:

so faster

[13:28:40]

justinh:

episode of emmerdale lasts 14 minutes :D

[13:28:53]

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[13:29:01]

justinh:

one button ad skip (4 minutes)

[13:29:35]

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[13:29:49]

Ace2016:

oh i thought by 2x you meant it would take 2x as long to watch than it normally would

[13:30:05]

Ace2016:

that seems like a very handy feature

[13:30:19]

justinh:

it is!

[13:30:41]

justinh:

I've watched a few shows on 2x now

[13:30:59]

Ace2016:

time stretch really sounds like slowing down

[13:31:01]

justinh:

first was a channel 4 documentary where everybody was talking very slowly

[13:31:16]

Ace2016:

should call it speed mode, or turbo mode

[13:31:22]

justinh:

that's why I said 'time mangling'

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[14:11:09]

Ace2016:

justinh: how long does a theme take you?

[14:11:56]

sphery:

hours of initial pain, years of misery once people see it?

[14:12:33]

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[14:12:51]

jpabq:

sphery, are you trying to talk Ace2016 into creating a new theme?

[14:13:21]

Ace2016:

sphery: did you make the leaf theme?

[14:13:44]

justinh:

it can take a LONG time

[14:13:54]

Ace2016:

leafers wide

[14:14:06]

Ace2016:

so like a week?

[14:14:11]

sphery:

Ace2016: I haven't made any themes. I have no artistic talent, at all.

[14:14:14]

justinh:

leafers-wide wasn't made. somebody pooped it out

[14:14:18]

justinh:

a week is not a long time

[14:14:52]

justinh:

and if you ever release it, it's never finished once people start giving their comments whether invited or not

[14:15:50]

justinh:

Ace2016: a week, working on that & nothing else for 8+ hours a day. maybe

[14:16:09]

Ace2016:

sweet so it'll be a week

[14:16:12]

justinh:

but that'd only be mythfrontend & 2 or 3 plugins

[14:16:33]

justinh:

it's a journey. I don't get a sense you understand that

[14:17:18]

justinh:

it takes as long as it takes

[14:17:35]

justinh:

something quickly thrown together is going to look shit

[14:18:16]

justinh:

it's like asking how long it takes to write a plugin

[14:19:47]

justinh:

oh yeah while I remember if you ever intend to release it, get your licencing right & make sure any images you use are fine with that

[14:20:20]

Ace2016:

i'm making almost everything, taken 1 image from one of the other mythtv themes

[14:20:31]

justinh:

more than 1 week then!

[14:25:37]

justinh:

what really takes the time is snagging all the alignment issues you run into – obviously that relies on you being able to navigate around the xml files to know what to edit. look in ui.xml man

[14:26:07]

justinh:

fwiw it's not a theme is all you do is change the main menus :)

[14:26:23]

justinh:

(IMHO)

[14:31:33]

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[14:33:03]

dustybin:

justinh: when you create themes did you have to keep on endlessly restarting the frontend to see how it looks

[14:33:23]

Ace2016:

thats what i did when i made my mplayer theme

[14:33:26]

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[14:34:18]

dustybin:

before i would even bother attempting to create a theme i would first need to learn how it all works

[14:34:53]

Ace2016:

ok lets both of us make a theme

[14:35:05]

Ace2016:

you research first, and i'll dive in head first

[14:35:16]

Ace2016:

i'll find stuff out as i go

[14:35:34]

Ace2016:

oh and we both started yesterday but you weren't here yet

[14:35:37]

dustybin:

i wouldnt bother making a theme now id wait until the mythUI is ported over

[14:35:43]

dustybin:

for the next release of mythtv

[14:36:02]

Ace2016:

who said i'm planning to upgrade?

[14:38:02]

Dibblah:

Bob did.

[14:38:14]

Dibblah:

He's the spy sitting on your shoulder.

[14:38:55]

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[14:39:24]

Ace2016:

damn those wightless, invisible, intangible spies

[14:40:23]

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[14:46:08]

gizmobay:

I have a Fedora system. Does anyone know if I can install two video cards. One in the PCIe and the other in a PCI slot. I don't want to use them at the same time.

[14:47:59]

Ace2016:

ask in #Fedora?

[14:48:08]

Ace2016:

but without the ?

[14:48:17]

Ace2016:

but it should be possible

[14:49:11]

|Torg|:

its not a matter of fedora as much a matter of drivers

[14:49:23]

|Torg|:

yes you can have two differnt, even three or 4 video cards

[14:49:34]

|Torg|:

yes you can run them in X, all it takes is multiple driver lines

[14:49:50]

|Torg|:

and yes you can tie in, use and span all those cards in X with multiple monitors

[14:50:02]

|Torg|:

it is how you make a multiheaded X config

[14:50:06]

gizmobay:

It's for my myth box

[14:50:21]

|Torg|:

I run one such config on my desktop, what I am working on now

[14:50:42]

|Torg|:

I have another for my laptop, but that is more like how to connect an extranl monitor to differnt outputs

[14:50:45]

willcooke:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10251 . . . tal-age.html

[14:50:47]

gizmobay:

Thanks. It's a pain taking out the PCIe card

[14:50:57]

|Torg|:

if you like I can patebin my X config to show you

[14:51:09]

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[14:51:10]

gizmobay:

yes, thanks

[14:51:22]

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[14:51:42]

wagner:

its hard to take out the PCIe card? this a gigabyte motherboard?

[14:51:47]

Ace2016:

gizmobay: just curious but why is it harder to take out a pcie card than a pci card?

[14:52:03]

Ace2016:

than put in a pci card*

[14:52:14]

gizmobay:

I should've said a pain to get back in

[14:52:24]

wagner:

gigabyte has difficult, annoying clips on their PCIe-x16 slot

[14:52:26]

Ace2016:

custom case?

[14:52:49]

gizmobay:

just a bunch of stuff in there

[14:54:05]

wagner:

typically if youve got that much stuff in there that you cant easily pull the expansion cards, youve got too much crap in there for proper cooling

[14:55:08]

|Torg|:

http://pastebin.com/ded4eed2

[14:55:58]

Ace2016:

wagner: what if you had a raiser card and filled all the slots on it? it'd still be ok for cooling but hard to reach th pcie on the bottom

[14:56:33]

GreyFoxx:

My most recent motherboard is a gigabyte board, and I'm very happy with it so far. But the single IDE connector was a shock heh

[14:56:44]

GreyFoxx:

thankfully I have PCI IDE controllers around :)

[14:56:50]

wagner:

good point, last time ive dealt with a riser card was about 8 years ago

[14:57:11]

wagner:

GreyFoxx: most boards only have one IDE connector anyway

[14:57:30]

GreyFoxx:

Maybe these days, I've never run into it one myself until now

[14:57:37]

GreyFoxx:

even the stuff we order in for servers here has two

[14:57:47]

wagner:

modern intel chipsets dont even include an IDE controller, they have a 3rd party chip to provide that connector

[14:57:53]

GreyFoxx:

so I didn't know they had finally started dropping them off the boards and didn't think to look for it :)

[14:57:56]

Ace2016:

sata is the future

[14:58:02]

|Torg|:

the only time I had problems with putting in a video card was with a case that had the hdd cage directly across fromt eh video card and the end of the card would conflict with the ends of the drives. Needless to say I ditcheed the case for another wone

[14:58:18]

Ace2016:

they'll probably leave them there for dvd drives

[14:58:23]

GreyFoxx:

but the board, with the dual pcie video cards is working quite happily

[14:59:24]

wagner:

Ace2016: i spent $25 and ditched my old PATA burner about 2 years ago (damn those things have gotten cheap)

[15:00:02]

Ace2016:

whats the point? dvd-rw drives are hardly going to be maxing out the ata bus are they

[15:00:37]

wagner:

the point is i dont have to deal with ribbon cables any longer

[15:01:20]

wagner:

|Torg|: im getting an unknown id on that pastebin

[15:01:31]

Ace2016:

its only one

[15:01:47]

Ace2016:

and there are those thinner ide cables which are in bundles

[15:02:26]

wagner:

i never much liked round cables, the ribbon cables can be folded and tucked out of the way, the round cables tend to go where they want

[15:03:11]

wagner:

theyre fine in an empty case, but in a packed case with some planning, ribbon cables actually worked better

[15:04:15]

wagner:

|Torg|: nevermind, apparently pastebin.com and www.pastebin.com are two completely different websites

[15:05:04]

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[15:09:26]

gizmobay:

Cool, it worked

[15:09:56]

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[15:11:02]

gbee:

justinh: http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/mythuibuttonlist1.png

[15:11:29]

gbee:

just a quick demo, obviously you can do more with it than that

[15:11:43]

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[15:12:16]

GreyFoxx:

That looks kinda cool

[15:13:09]

GreyFoxx:

Does the arrow move in the list or does the list move ?

[15:13:53]

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[15:15:02]

gbee:

the list moves, but it's theme defined – replace <scrollstyle>center</scrollstyle> with <scrollstyle>free</scrollstyle> etc

[15:15:18]

GreyFoxx:

cool

[15:16:04]

gbee:

that demo isn't very inventive, it looks pretty much like my concept mockup – http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/buttonlist_demo.png

[15:16:18]

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[15:17:22]

gbee:

the text, images can be arranged in whatever fashion you like and in whatever size you want (e.g. browsing images the currently selected one could be enlarged relative to the others), the list can be horizontal, vertical or a grid

[15:17:27]

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[15:20:12]

GreyFoxx:

gbee: I think it would be a neat effect for the VideoGallery to slightly enlarge the highlighted one

[15:21:36]

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[15:22:21]

SHADOW_XX:

hello i was wondering if someone could help me with a tvtuner issue i am having

[15:24:58]

gbee:

GreyFoxx: yeah, I'm giving themers as much rooms as possible – I hope it will mean that some good ideas come out of it and that they'll do things with it that we never imagined

[15:25:23]

sphery:

gbee: just wondering if you've given any thought to audio notifications in the UI. I'm guessing that would belong in mythui...

[15:25:49]

gbee:

in a couple of years we'll be able to say that if you take the ideas from themes A,B and C you'll come up with the perfect UI :p

[15:26:22]

sphery:

I have to say that your having created a theme just prior to your doing the mythui conversion seems to have been a /very/ good thing for themers.

[15:26:28]

gbee:

sphery: yeah, I've thought about it briefly, I don't think it would be hard to slip it into mythui

[15:26:47]

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[15:27:45]

SHADOW_XX:

more information on my mythbox is that its an amd x2 be mythbuntu 8.04 64bit pinnacle pctv 800i

[15:27:54]

GlemSom:

Anyone managed to change the time/date format in Mythweb to 24hour times – when using the "English" language? I was under the impression I could change the "generic_time" in modules/_shared/lang/English.lang ... apparently I was wrong?

[15:29:30]

gizmobay:

|Torg|, in your xorg.conf file. How did you determine your bus id?

[15:29:36]

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[15:30:00]

SHADOW_XX:

digital works but analog tunes to a channel you can see it for a bit and then it just gets static as if i unpluged the cable wire

[15:30:00]

sphery:

GlemSom: Don't you just go to MythWeb settings, TV, My Session and change the date format you want?

[15:30:04]

wagner:

gizmobay: usually 'X -configure' does that for you

[15:30:26]

wagner:

alternatively you can use lspci

[15:31:14]

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[15:31:56]

sphery:

gbee: cool. I think that will be very useful from the UI-responsiveness perspective.

[15:32:01]

GlemSom:

sphery, That cannot be changed there... Only language, template and skin can be condigured :/

[15:32:16]

sphery:

You're not on the TV section

[15:32:24]

sphery:

You're looking at MythWeb section

[15:33:16]

sphery:

click "TV" in the left-hand nav column (under: "Settings")

[15:33:29]

GlemSom:

sphery, But – I just wanna change how mythweb behaves.... not anything else... So is that the right place so set that up?

[15:33:34]

sphery:

Yep

[15:33:46]

sphery:

It's MythWeb "TV settings"

[15:33:59]

GlemSom:

hmm ok – thanks then! :D

[15:34:13]

gbee:

sphery: I'll have a look at it over the weekend, I'd probably use QSound for convenience and then just add hooks into the widgets

[15:35:01]

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[15:35:10]

sphery:

[15:35:28]

sphery:

I think it's on TV because at least initially, it only applied to TV stuff.

[15:36:06]

sphery:

gbee: Thanks. I wasn't actually asking you to do it now--more just wondering if your overall plan allows for it.

[15:36:37]

GlemSom:

Ok thanks sphery :)

[15:36:49]

gbee:

sphery: might be an interesting side-project, I'm getting a little bored ;)

[15:37:34]

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[15:37:44]

EvilGuru:

gbee: QSound, now that is something I have not heard off for the best part of 5 years

[15:37:51]

EvilGuru:

*of

[15:37:52]

SHADOW_XX:

ayone :

[15:37:56]

SHADOW_XX:

:(

[15:38:17]

gbee:

http://doc.trolltech.com/4.3/qsound.html

[15:38:45]

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[15:39:06]

EvilGuru:

gbee: D'Oh, I thought you meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-Sound (as in QMix)

[15:39:32]

iamlindoro_:

SHADOW_XX, like I said yesterday, the analog sides of digital cards are a disaster-- The most people in here are going to be able to say about analog is "get a proper card."

[15:39:55]

SHADOW_XX:

lol oh alright eh

[15:40:12]

EvilGuru:

All OpenAL nowadays

[15:40:15]

SHADOW_XX:

so the 180 should be perfect?

[15:40:25]

sphery:

gbee: QSound uses NAS. Seems Qt doesn't support sound straight to ALSA... :(

[15:40:47]

SHADOW_XX:

1800 by happuage>?

[15:41:03]

iamlindoro_:

SHADOW_XX, well, nothing's perfect, but it should be a lot better

[15:41:06]

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[15:41:24]

directhex:

4.3? what happened to those 4.4 discussions?

[15:41:30]

sphery:

gbee: Oh well, it can be a start and then one of the audio guys (Mark Spieth, perhaps) could convert it to use the OSS/ALSA/JACK/... code used by the video player.

[15:41:32]

SHADOW_XX:

ok well would the 1800 be like a pvr 150 because i know alot of people use those on myth and it works fine

[15:41:40]

EvilGuru:

Does 4.4 have phonon?

[15:41:49]

gizmobay:

wagner, what does this mean in the xorg.conf

[15:41:53]

iamlindoro_:

Yes, it would be similar to a 150, if you also tacked on a second ATSC tuner

[15:42:01]

EvilGuru:

Swear I have some sample apps that came with the Qt distro

[15:42:09]

gizmobay:

Screen 1 "Screen1" Leftof "Screen0"

[15:42:10]

sphery:

EvilGuru: I might have 4.4 on my phone. (Buying a FreeRunner as soon as it's released. :)

[15:42:34]

wagner:

it means 'Screen1' will be placed left of 'Screen0'

[15:42:55]

wagner:

physical placement

[15:42:55]

sphery:

EvilGuru: Though I think Phonon is a KDE lib, not a Qt thing.

[15:43:11]

gizmobay:

like split screen or physically left of Screen0

[15:43:15]

EvilGuru:

The OS X Qt4.4 distro comes with it — unsure about Windows

[15:43:23]

wagner:

Screen0 is at +1280+0, Screen1 is +0+0, Screen2 is +2560+0

[15:43:27]

sphery:

EvilGuru: or maybe not anymore... Trolltech uses Phonon in its Qt 4.4 release to provide cross platform audio/video playback. (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon_(KDE))

[15:43:36]

sphery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon_(KDE)

[15:43:44]

sphery:

forgot space before paren

[15:43:50]

wagner:

the screens are your different montiors

[15:44:06]

wagner:

its how you get X to properly match how they are arranged on your desk

[15:44:14]

gizmobay:

I see

[15:44:20]

PatrickDK:

screens? personally I use lcd's

[15:44:24]

gizmobay:

I won't use two at the same time though

[15:44:53]

wagner:

whats the point of having two screens if you dont use them at the same time

[15:45:22]

gizmobay:

I just have two cards in my puter

[15:46:03]

wagner:

so you need 3+ monitors to justify having so

[15:46:03]

gizmobay:

Want to switch between the two

[15:46:40]

sphery:

gbee: Anyway, if you're interested: http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/phonon-overview.html . Perhaps that + QtScript (which Chutt was just pining for) will be enough to make the min-Qt version 4.4 instead of the current 4.3... :)

[15:47:00]

gizmobay:

but tried using the other card and it didn't work

[15:47:28]

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[15:48:51]

** sphery finds it interesting that someone got the name of the "classic" falling-blocks game (Tetris) wrong in Qt4 docs... http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/script-tetrix.html **

[15:49:10]

EvilGuru:

sphery: Even worse, the down key rotates it!

[15:49:19]

wagner:

well that means its xtreme tetris

[15:49:29]

sphery:

so, both name and implementation, it seems :)

[15:49:52]

sid3windr:

well, if the implementation is different, the name should be ;)

[15:50:12]

wagner:

the more x's, the better

[15:50:33]

EvilGuru:

x*3 > x*n where n # 3

[15:50:36]

sphery:

sid3windr: yeah, but the first line of the docs says, "The Tetrix example is a QtScript version of the classic Tetrix game."

[15:50:47]

sid3windr:

heh

[15:51:04]

sphery:

the only name that's truly wrong is the one that follows "classic" in that sentance

[15:51:31]

sphery:

they did the same with the C++ example, too.

[15:51:34]

sphery:

http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/widgets-tetrix.html

[15:52:13]

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[15:53:08]

SHADOW_XX:

hey iamlindoro_ what drivers would the 1800 use or just use the ones it says on the site but the updated ones just work better

[15:53:39]

iamlindoro_:

SHADOW_XX, ones on what site? You should be using a v4l-dvb Hg checkout for that card.

[15:54:05]

SHADOW_XX:

yeah thats what i am saying

[15:54:14]

iamlindoro_:

http://www.linuxtv.org/repo/, read "How to build the blah blah kernel modules."

[15:54:21]

gbee:

sphery: I'm not sure I can see a need for phonon right now, it would add a gstreamer dependancy that is hard to justify

[15:54:28]

iamlindoro_:

SHADOW_XX, That's the only source of drivers for linux Digital tuners

[15:54:31]

SHADOW_XX:

i just wish i wonder what happened to these drivers because the analog worked on here

[15:54:40]

gbee:

QSound isn't much better really, having read the docs

[15:54:56]

iamlindoro_:

SHADOW_XX, analog *does* work on that card

[15:54:58]

iamlindoro_:

as does digital

[15:55:11]

iamlindoro_:

Just build freaking Hg, there's no mystery here

[15:56:05]

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[15:57:04]

gbee:

I'll just use ffmpeg if/when I add the sound support

[15:57:59]

EvilGuru:

If I understand it: Phonon (on Linux) -> Xine -> FFmpeg

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gbee:

nah, it uses gstreamer

[16:01:24]

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[16:09:10]

justinh:

gbee: <jazz club voice> NICE </jazz club voice> !

[16:09:21]

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[16:09:50]

justinh:

dustybin: yes, when I was creating themes I had to restart mythfrontend countless times

[16:10:30]

justinh:

in hindsight it'd probably have been better to construct an engine to see how themes looked

[16:11:04]

justinh:

maybe something to look at when mythui has been put to bed, I dunno

[16:11:28]

justinh:

I've never been in favour of making life too easy for theme designers despite being one of them

[16:12:01]

justinh:

I always cite winamp as the perfect of example of when things are too easy. look at all the totally shite skins for that!

[16:12:16]

SHADOW_XX:

lol

[16:12:19]

justinh:

billions of em

[16:12:29]

SHADOW_XX:

i secound shitty winamp skins justinh

[16:13:03]

justinh:

it can take days to find a few you like only to discover they don't work in practise

[16:13:29]

SHADOW_XX:

lol yeah

[16:13:38]

SHADOW_XX:

it sucks there are afew i like that o work no more

[16:14:03]

justinh:

right now with mythtv themes there aren't any that really suck donkey balls & I'd like it to stay that way

[16:14:18]

SHADOW_XX:

lol

[16:15:07]

justinh:

it's down to individual taste of course but I can't say that I don't think any are fugly beyond reproach, even G.A.N.T

[16:15:50]

gbee:

I originally wanted mythui to be easier than what we had before, and sure in some respects it will be – inheritance is fantastic, yet it has to be made a little harder if it's going to be as powerful as we'd like

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[16:16:41]

justinh:

so long as anybody has to open a text editor it'll be 'too hard' ;)

[16:17:00]

gbee:

consider that pretty much any theme, the watch recordings screen looks identical if you ignore the images – you are severely limited in what can be changed

[16:17:20]

justinh:

yeah don't I just know it

[16:17:56]

justinh:

then again I wouldn't say there's much you really want to do to that screen – although other people would prefer a lot more info on there

[16:17:59]

wagner:

woohoo! replacement motherboard is here

[16:17:59]

gbee:

with mythui I'm hoping that won't be the case

[16:18:33]

justinh:

I hope the myth that with HD displays comes the ability to show reams more information dies soon

[16:19:12]

justinh:

can anybody, even with 20/20 vision make out 2pt text from their armchair? ;)

[16:19:27]

gbee:

justinh: well not that I think the idea is better than others, but I'm sure some people will want it looking like this – http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/mythuibuttonlist1.png or this http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/mythui_video_mockup.png or this http://miffteevee.co.uk/imagebin/buttonlist_demo.png

[16:20:19]

wagner:

ive got 20/13, and i cant read much below 5pt (from 4 ft)

[16:20:24]

gbee:

or with the category list moved up to the top as a horizontal list etc

[16:20:27]

justinh:

the ability to have different views would be cool :)

[16:20:48]

justinh:

dunno how that'd work in practise though

[16:21:12]

justinh:

actually yeah maybe then mythvideo could be more integrated somehow

[16:21:33]

justinh:

if not in terms of code, at least in look/feel

[16:21:52]

wagner:

well they returned the same exact board with no mention of what was repaired

[16:22:44]

justinh:

heheheheh : http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/a999 . . . -outage.html

[16:24:22]

justinh:

argh. not looking forward to yet more vinyl ripping. bloody hate itunes et al for not having the tracks. I really don't mind paying

[16:25:01]

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[16:44:56]

mustangs_lap:

How "heavy" is the Mac MythFronend Client?

[16:45:13]

** EvilGuru seldom watches ITV **

[16:45:21]

mustangs_lap:

I used to use MythtvPlayer (for windows) to view recordings on my Laptop

[16:45:30]

iamlindoro_:

What do you specifically want to know? That's a terribly general question.

[16:45:42]

mustangs_lap:

but I replaced my Win Laptop with a new MacBookPro :-)

[16:46:27]

mustangs_lap:

How much resorces does it normaly use up? Would it be worth intalling the Frontend to watch Recordings?

[16:46:41]

iamlindoro_:

The frontend on mac is certainly a far step above MythTVPlayer, since it's an actual frontend.

[16:46:46]

mustangs_lap:

or should I just mount the recording folders and watch them with vlc

[16:47:19]

iamlindoro_:

If you want to be able to skip commercials, watch live TV, etc., I would use a proper frontend. If you don't care about that, network mounts are fine.

[16:47:36]

mustangs_lap:

I'm sorry to ask then run, but my boss needs me in a meeting :-/

[16:47:49]

mustangs_lap:

thanks iamlindoro :-)

[16:47:56]

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|Torg|:

gizmobay: I am sorry I was on a confernce call, the bus id of my cards I got from lspci and verified with x -verbose 6, I then used nvidia-settings to vewrify the displays and paste IDs

[16:54:53]

|Torg|:

so for example lspci output of "02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation G71 [GeForce 7900 GS] (rev a1)" is BusID "PCI:2:0:0", screen idetifies which output (they are dual output cards).

[16:55:55]

|Torg|:

card 2:0:0 is my primary with two monitors off card 3:0:0 this is so I could use SLI, but I never had a reason to on my linux system

[16:59:03]

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[17:00:19]

wagner:

|Torg|: youve got three cards?

[17:00:35]

|Torg|:

2

[17:00:48]

wagner:

or you would just enable SLI and let the two extra monitors sit unused

[17:00:52]

|Torg|:

2 dual output cards, I am using one output on one card, and two on the other

[17:01:11]

|Torg|:

wagner: corect, it IS SLI togehter, I just dont activate it

[17:01:56]

|Torg|:

I had thoght when I put it together I would need SLI for something, so far I find that I prefer three monitors over one fast one

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[17:22:40]

wagner:

|Torg|: my setup is similar, ive got a 6800 and a 6600

[17:22:57]

wagner:

i just saw no purpose in SLI when it disabled the secondary outputs

[17:23:55]

wagner:

now lets see how long my supposedly repaired computer can run before it crashes

[17:26:15]

EvilGuru:

|Torg|: Do get GLX on all of them?

[17:26:39]

EvilGuru:

As the newer nvidia drivers supposedly supports accelerated GLX over multiple GPUs

[17:27:23]

wagner:

i dont have linux installed on it currently, but i believe i used to

[17:28:24]

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[17:28:58]

|Torg|:

yes EvilGuru

[17:29:34]

EvilGuru:

If I could find myself a cheap 7900GTX or 7950GX2 I would look into it

[17:30:00]

psofa:

is the hd ringbuffer device used for all h264 content (dvb-s /s2) or just for atsc?

[17:30:03]

wagner:

our GX2 at work was $3000

[17:30:15]

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[17:30:29]

EvilGuru:

I got mine for £100 ($190 USD) just after the 8800 series came out

[17:30:43]

wagner:

although that was the 4-port quadro version, so i guess that doesnt count

[17:30:51]

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[17:31:17]

EvilGuru:

Picked up a 7900GTX a few weeks before for a similar price

[17:31:46]

wagner:

i need to get an 8800 next time theres a good deal on one

[17:31:51]

wagner:

my 6800 is getting a bit old

[17:33:25]

wagner:

2.5 yrs actually

[17:34:21]

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[17:34:21]

EvilGuru:

wagner: I was hoping the 9xxx series would bring the price of 8800 Ultras, however it was something of a flop

[17:34:40]

wagner:

the ultras are only marginally faster than a GTS though

[17:34:53]

wagner:

plus the GTS uses considerably less power

[17:34:58]

wagner:

(8800 GTS)

[17:35:20]

wagner:

although its got a bit less ram

[17:40:10]

wagner:

besides, they still havent released a high end 9000, or even a 9000 series chip

[17:42:35]

gbee:

psofa: huh?

[17:42:44]

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[17:43:21]

psofa:

gbee, hd = high definition or hard disk?

[17:43:31]

|Torg|:

wagner: the heat isssue is why I went with 2 7900GS instead of 7900GTX

[17:44:09]

|Torg|:

my two 7900GS cards put out less heat then one 7900GTX

[17:44:19]

gbee:

psofa: you've completely lost me

[17:45:03]

psofa:

gbee, hd ringbuffer == buffer just for high definition video? or buffer for all videos?

[17:45:53]

psofa:

if its for all video my first question is invalid

[17:46:02]

gbee:

psofa: where did you get "hd ringbuffer" from?

[17:46:14]

gbee:

maybe I'm just being slow ...

[17:46:19]

wagner:

whoops, i need to fix my backend

[17:46:19]

psofa:

from mythtv-setup

[17:46:26]

psofa:

general settings

[17:46:34]

wagner:

i updated the kernel last night, and rebooted it, only to find it did not reboot

[17:46:41]

wagner:

and i decided to go to sleep rather than deal with it

[17:46:43]

psofa:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/User_Man . . . ion_Frontend

[17:47:05]

psofa:

the wiki says its in frontend setup though it has been moved to mythtv-setup

[17:47:13]

GreyFoxx:

psof: It's an inram buffer size

[17:47:17]

** leprechau still has a Quadro FX 1440 in his desktop and g4fs in his myth boxes **

[17:47:20]

GreyFoxx:

nothing to do with HDTV

[17:47:25]

GreyFoxx:

It's used for all playback

[17:47:54]

GreyFoxx:

if you have busy drives it can help reduce stutter

[17:48:10]

GreyFoxx:

I doubt anyone really needs to touch it's value

[17:48:14]

gbee:

hmm, badly named

[17:48:45]

gbee:

first time I've actually seen it, I guess I just skipped past it before

[17:48:58]

GreyFoxx:

I've never had to touch it myself

[17:50:05]

gbee:

it's one of those settings which could probably be quietly 'vanished', at least from the settings UI

[17:50:12]

GreyFoxx:

yeah

[17:50:27]

psofa:

GreyFoxx, well im trying to decrease it because there is a 6 sec delay with live which isnt good when the neighbors can be heard when someone scores :)

[17:50:38]

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[17:50:48]

psofa:

or theres another reason?

[17:50:52]

|Torg|:

Ive had by BE record two atsc streams while watching 2 on my fes and it still did not need to be adjusted

[17:50:58]

GreyFoxx:

pso: That wont help you do that

[17:51:09]

iamlindoro_:

psofa, The delay is there because myth must record before playing back-- the delay is always going to be present

[17:51:49]

iamlindoro_:

I say go watch at the neighbors if you want to watch Live :)

[17:51:53]

iamlindoro_:

It's friendly and you might get fed

[17:52:08]

psofa:

yeah i know its inherent to mythtv but iirc it was just 1–2 secs with ivtv

[17:52:23]

psofa:

the seek timer shows its 6 secs behind

[17:52:50]

psofa:

is 6 secs normal?

[17:52:51]

iamlindoro_:

ivtv delay has to do with waiting on the hardware encoder. Myth still has to write to disk after that and keep an adequate buffer to keep from kicking you out of TV

[17:53:05]

iamlindoro_:

6 seconds isn't unusual

[17:55:03]

GreyFoxx:

I have no idea how far behind "realtime" it would be. all I know is how long channel changes take

[17:55:14]

GreyFoxx:

but then I never use livetv except for testing

[17:55:27]

|Torg|:

also keep in mind nothing you watch on any tv is every really realtime

[17:55:43]

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[17:55:47]

GreyFoxx:

My old Sat servers was a full 2 seconds ahead of the same channel on my digital cable

[17:55:50]

psofa:

sure dvb is 1–2 secs back

[17:55:57]

GreyFoxx:

everything varies :)

[17:56:13]

|Torg|:

my atsc is faster then my sat, but then its a long way up to those sattleites

[17:56:29]

|Torg|:

even atsc is not realtime, take a portable tv to a game and see

[17:56:51]

|Torg|:

everyting that transmits has lag, everything that recives has lag. And the more it has to do the more lag it gets

[17:56:52]

gbee:

sat always tends to lag 2–3 seconds

[17:57:09]

psofa:

any way to hack myth to like half the buffers?

[17:57:14]

GreyFoxx:

Aaron Allen via RT wrote:

[17:57:14]

GreyFoxx:

> Cc:

[17:57:14]

GreyFoxx:

>

[17:57:14]

GreyFoxx:

> <URL: http://rt.landlordit.com:80/Ticket/Display.html?id=47258 >

[17:57:22]

|Torg|:

psofa: solid state didks

[17:57:23]

GreyFoxx:

stupid cut n paste

[17:57:25]

|Torg|:

err disks

[17:57:41]

gbee:

US live tv has a deliberately introduced lag so they can stop moral outrages such as a badly injured player swearing ;)

[17:57:45]

psofa:

|Torg|, i doubt a hard disk itself introduces 6 sec's lag

[17:58:25]

|Torg|:

its largly due to waitio on the box, the service time to the disk being the slowest of the function

[17:58:45]

iamlindoro_:

psofa, We cover this fairly frequently. No, there's nothing you can do to reduce or eliminate the delay. Most myth devs don't ever watch live TV so they don't really work to anyway. Patches are welcome.

[17:58:57]

iamlindoro_:

I think that pretty much sums up what usually gets said on this topic :)

[18:00:06]

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[18:01:03]

gbee:

write a patch to offer the option of completely unbuffered (unrecorded) livetv and you'll be popular – at least until people realise that being able to rewind, pause makes that few seconds delay worthwhile

[18:01:38]

gbee:

or like the rest of us they realise that watching TV live is pointless

[18:02:34]

gbee:

if I ever want/need to watch something completely live then I tend to switch over to the TV's internal tuner and bypass the mythtv box entirely

[18:03:01]

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[18:03:12]

keith4:

presumably people who want unbuffered live TV are using an output device without a tuner, no?

[18:03:24]

Dagmar:

oof

[18:03:42]

keith4:

in which case, one might ask why they are even using mythtv

[18:03:59]

psofa:

uhm a hdtv dreambox costs 500 euros

[18:04:21]

iamlindoro_:

psofa, What's that got to do with anything?

[18:05:34]

janneg:

well, theoretically it's possible to stream and record the same content and automatically switch between streaming and lagging recording

[18:05:59]

psofa:

my mythbox which i use for hd mkv video already costs just an extra tuner for hdtv

[18:06:00]

janneg:

but it's imho not worth the effort

[18:06:54]

iamlindoro_:

I still think having the neighbors over or going to visit them is a win-win

[18:07:40]

psofa:

still im not convinced it isnt possible to lessen the lag with the current architecture

[18:07:56]

iamlindoro_:

psofa, And neither were the hundred or so people asking this before you

[18:07:59]

iamlindoro_:

but here we are

[18:08:04]

psofa:

:)

[18:08:37]

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[18:11:05]

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[18:11:32]

mkrufky:

i think there's no BSG after tonight for a while... does anybody know for sure?

[18:12:10]

gbee:

in the last last two years, despite a plenty of complaints, we've not received a single patch which attempts to address the question of livetv lag and channel change speeds

[18:13:02]

wagner:

mkrufky: the last BSG was at the end of May

[18:13:46]

Dagmar:

what?

[18:13:49]

Dagmar:

no

[18:14:09]

Dagmar:

The last BSG was last week, man

[18:14:46]

mkrufky:

last week?!?

[18:14:58]

mkrufky:

there is definately a new one on tonight, dag

[18:15:00]

mkrufky:

Dagmar:

[18:15:04]

Dagmar:

Yes, there is

[18:15:13]

wagner:

ok, im going off epguides.com

[18:15:13]

Dagmar:

I'm talking about the last one aired.

[18:15:18]

PatrickDK:

hehe :)

[18:15:19]

Dagmar:

Not the last episode of the season

[18:15:19]

mkrufky:

ah, thats true

[18:15:30]

mkrufky:

tonight is "mid-season finale"

[18:15:36]

PatrickDK:

so that would make tonights a pre-view?

[18:15:45]

Dagmar:

I've already made sure I've undone what I did to let Google into mythweb

[18:15:48]

mkrufky:

...and i think that implies that we might go on break till february

[18:16:24]

PatrickDK:

october

[18:16:39]

mkrufky:

aah.. do you know that for sure?

[18:16:46]

PatrickDK:

it's the same every year

[18:16:52]

PatrickDK:

it's end of oct, beginning of nov

[18:16:56]

mkrufky:

i didnt know — i only started watching this year

[18:16:58]

PatrickDK:

depending on how it hits the week

[18:17:03]

mkrufky:

(of course, i saw all the episodes)

[18:19:24]

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[18:23:12]

iamlindoro_:

I hate these BSG midseason breaks, they are bullshit

[18:23:31]

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[18:23:51]

mkrufky:

yeah i agree

[18:24:11]

mkrufky:

just when i thought i had a show with new episodes coming in all summer

[18:24:14]

iamlindoro_:

SciFi will go back to being a network with no watchable shows after this year

[18:24:23]

mkrufky:

,.... i might have to go check on the showtime / hbo lineups

[18:24:34]

wagner:

ive got four seasons recorded, waiting for that series to end so i can actually watch it

[18:24:35]

mkrufky:

and finally there's a device out there to record from those channels, too ;-)

[18:24:54]

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[18:25:02]

mkrufky:

oooooooooooh.. dont read the channel logs wagner — we totally ruined the show for ya

[18:25:12]

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[18:25:19]

iamlindoro_:

mkrufky, now we need hardware accel to *watch* said recordings :)

[18:25:21]

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[18:25:47]

mkrufky:

heh.

[18:26:15]

mkrufky:

use your ps3 — that'll play anything

[18:26:24]

wagner:

bullshit it will

[18:26:36]

stoth:

anything sigma 8634 or 8635 based will do.

[18:26:42]

wagner:

i still have not been able to encode something to h.264 that its happy with

[18:26:57]

stoth:

wagner: I have.

[18:27:08]

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[18:27:25]

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[18:27:34]

iamlindoro_:

Actually when/if mythtranscode supports lossless cut of the HD-PVR streams, I might even be satisfied doing my editing on my mythbox and watching via something else while we wait for the playback situation to improve

[18:27:55]

iamlindoro_:

Maybe the excuse I've never managed to find for buying a PS3 :)

[18:28:12]

mkrufky:

i was thinking something similar

[18:28:50]

mkrufky:

anyway, so i saw you guys talking about eureka the other night, so i started watching that, too

[18:28:55]

mkrufky:

seems pretty entertaining

[18:29:01]

iamlindoro_:

Never seem that one

[18:29:03]

iamlindoro_:

seen

[18:29:08]

stoth:

hold for a while, cheaper devices than the ps3 are entering the market – and ofer better support.

[18:29:13]

wagner:

my ps3 will play any of my PVR-150 recordings, about 2/3 of my divx/xvid stuff, and absolutely none of my h.264

[18:29:13]

mkrufky:

then it was somebody else... but it was def in here

[18:29:25]

iamlindoro_:

stoth, The popcornhour seems like it would fit the bill, you looked at that one?

[18:29:28]

mkrufky:

but, well.... 12 eps per season and only 2 seasons so far...... that's not gonna hold me till september

[18:29:32]

iamlindoro_:

Seems to be very well liked

[18:29:40]

stoth:

iamlindoro_ yes. sort of.

[18:29:45]

stoth:

I've looked at the chipset.

[18:30:06]

stoth:

mkrufky – old but good – Farscape.

[18:30:12]

iamlindoro_:

^^ yes!

[18:30:21]

mkrufky:

i'll keep that in mind

[18:30:23]

GreyFoxx:

I sat down and rewatched farscape like 2 months ago

[18:30:27]

stoth:

4 or 5 seasons 22 eps per season.

[18:30:29]

GreyFoxx:

I love that show

[18:30:31]

iamlindoro_:

Another example of SciFi canceling the best show they have

[18:30:36]

stoth:

indeed.

[18:30:46]

GreyFoxx:

iam: Supposedly they have ordered 10 webisodes from the henson company

[18:30:53]

iamlindoro_:

GreyFoxx, Ooh!!

[18:30:57]

GreyFoxx:

and depending on how those go.....

[18:31:09]

iamlindoro_:

Holy cow, that would be great!

[18:31:09]

GreyFoxx:

browder might even be involved

[18:31:11]

GreyFoxx:

yeah

[18:31:46]

GreyFoxx:

http://www.scifi.com/farscape/

[18:31:59]

iamlindoro_:

if it was similar writing, I might even look at a spinoff

[18:32:02]

GreyFoxx:

they were delayed by the writers strike

[18:32:09]

iamlindoro_:

that is great news, thanks!!

[18:32:39]

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[18:32:49]

iamlindoro_:

The Miniseries was a poor attempt to bring it to a close

[18:32:53]

GreyFoxx:

iam: yeah

[18:33:09]

fbnts:

Hi, maybe i've missed something but where do I configure/use Picture-in-Picture?

[18:33:27]

wagner:

thank god for unions, showing the world how good they are at dicking everything over

[18:33:48]

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[18:33:51]

iamlindoro_:

The Writers had legit gripes, I don't begrudge them the strike in the least

[18:34:02]

iamlindoro_:

It's 100% the media executives fault

[18:34:27]

wagner:

they may have had legit gripes, but they are skilled employees, they shouldnt be in a union

[18:34:44]

wagner:

unions exist to protect unskilled laborers

[18:34:56]

iamlindoro_:

Nonsense

[18:35:20]

iamlindoro_:

Unions were founded among unskilled laborers, everyone has the right to petition for representation as a group

[18:36:49]

wagner:

they have the right, they shouldnt have the need

[18:37:43]

iamlindoro_:

You're right-- if we lived in a perfect world the union wouldn't be necessary-- but as the executives so capable held them down and screwed them for 20 years, the need for their union is pretty apparent

[18:37:48]

iamlindoro_:

er capably

[18:38:17]

directhex:

the strike was a victory for canada's *respect*

[18:38:42]

Ace2016:

hI ALL

[18:38:43]

iamlindoro_:

*any* time a few hold the power over a group, then the only way to mount an effective negotiation is to act as a group

[18:38:45]

Ace2016:

argh

[18:38:46]

Ace2016:

Hi all

[18:39:06]

Ace2016:

Can you use a sky box as an extra tuner, one that can record channels?

[18:39:40]

iamlindoro_:

Ace2016, No. The best you can do with a sky box is output the analog outputs into a capture card and capture it that way

[18:39:49]

keith4:

fbnts: like... what corner of the screen PiP shows on?

[18:40:14]

fbnts:

well I can't find much documentation on it apart from the MythTV docs say the shortcut key is V

[18:40:27]

fbnts:

I have a dual tuner Nova-T-500

[18:40:30]

iamlindoro_:

Holy shit someone read the documentation

[18:40:32]

Ace2016:

iamlindoro_: does channel changing work and does it have guide data?

[18:40:40]

fbnts:

lol – I always try to!

[18:40:51]

Ace2016:

fbnts: i plan to use the tv in from an nvidia card so i can have 2 tuners + sky

[18:40:53]

GreyFoxx:

ace: You would need a IR blaster to send change signals or maybe if theunit accepts serial controls

[18:40:54]

iamlindoro_:

Ace2016, you would need an external guide source, and you would need to use an IR blaster, just as with any STB

[18:41:09]

gbee:

Ace2016: yes, you can change channels (using an IR blaster) and get guide data using xmltv (radiotimes)

[18:41:12]

iamlindoro_:

Ace2016, better cancel that plan on capturing with your nVidia card

[18:41:25]

Ace2016:

why?

[18:41:28]

Ace2016:

sound?

[18:41:30]

GreyFoxx:

No support

[18:41:35]

Ace2016:

oh...

[18:41:36]

GreyFoxx:

No driver support

[18:41:50]

fbnts:

they keybinding does nothing, nor can I find an entry in the keybinding menu for PIP

[18:41:59]

gbee:

Ace2016: you really need a Hauppauge PVR-150

[18:42:07]

Ace2016:

the cheapest right?

[18:42:07]

GreyFoxx:

or a 500

[18:42:16]

GreyFoxx:

the 500 is 2 150's on a single card

[18:42:31]

gbee:

GreyFoxx: only one STB, so 500 is overkill :)

[18:42:33]

Ace2016:

its the number of pci slots thats the issue

[18:42:51]

iamlindoro_:

fbnts, While watching TV IIRC there is a menu option related to PiP

[18:43:01]

GreyFoxx:

gbee: Yeah but he said 2 tuners+sky

[18:43:08]

gbee:

my setup used to include recording from a Sky STB, until I couldn't see the value in Sky

[18:43:08]

fbnts:

hmm, i checked that as well – I shall double check now

[18:43:08]

GreyFoxx:

so I assumed he wanted 2 at least

[18:43:32]

gbee:

GreyFoxx: I think he means two terrestrial (DVB-T) tuners and the Sky (Satellite) STB

[18:43:52]

Ace2016:

2 freesat tuners in the PCI slots and Sky which was going to be on the nvidia card

[18:44:01]

keith4:

fbnts: i haven't used PiP in a few years, but it used to work great with two PVR 250s

[18:44:14]

gbee:

you'd need two Sky subscriptions otherwise – which is stupid since one is expensive enough

[18:44:17]

Ace2016:

is nvidia not supported by mythtv or does the nvidia driver not support video input in linux?

[18:44:21]

PatrickDK:

I used pip with my pvr-350 and a usb webcam :)

[18:44:33]

Ace2016:

PiP?

[18:44:36]

GreyFoxx:

Ace:nvidia doesn't provide driver support for it

[18:44:40]

Ace2016:

ah ok

[18:44:46]

gbee:

Ace2016: Picture in Picture

[18:44:46]

GreyFoxx:

nor any docs for someone else to make one

[18:44:55]

fbnts:

hmm, im on liveTV and press the menu button, cannot see any entry relating to PiP

[18:45:19]

keith4:

fbnts: if your 2nd tuner is in use, i.e. recording something, it will completely ignore your request for PiP

[18:45:29]

keith4:

just as it would ignore your request to switch to that input

[18:45:53]

gbee:

it would be the third menu option otherwise

[18:46:00]

fbnts:

ah right – that might be it, just thought it would show the recorded channel in the PiP box

[18:46:13]

keith4:

i remember that swapping the sources of PiP would take a VERY long time

[18:46:36]

fbnts:

3rd entry is "select audio track" at the moment

[18:46:45]

gbee:

fbnts: support for that might be offered in the future, skamithi is working on PIP improvements, but currently it only works for LiveTV+LiveTV

[18:46:51]

keith4:

and at that point, I had a crappy wireless keyboard... so I always thought it had dropped the N keystroke, and would hit it again... so when it finally got around to swapping, it would immediately swap back. drove me nuts enough to get an IR remote

[18:47:27]

abqjp:

stoth, I assume the "new batch" of Ambarella chips will not require a different firmware (challenge)?

[18:47:38]

fbnts:

ah not to worry, I was only playing – only just got my 1st MythTV system up and running

[18:48:17]

gbee:

right now PIP is an afterthought, it's not really a fully formed feature

[18:48:30]

Ace2016:

how good is the tv guide for Sky channels?

[18:48:32]

fbnts:

If I had another TV card (to capture a CCTV feed) I presume it would allow me to cycle the PiP source between the free DVB tuner and the 2nd card?

[18:48:43]

gbee:

Ace2016: it uses the radiotimes data, so good

[18:48:47]

keith4:

yah. iirc, it had some odd quirks, like it would lose the buffer if you paused one and swapped

[18:48:50]

Ace2016:

do all sky channels shown?

[18:49:07]

gbee:

Ace2016: dunno, all the ones which matter anyway

[18:49:08]

Ace2016:

what if i wanted to record from a video camera, can i just plug that in and say press record?

[18:49:19]

keith4:

fbnts: yah, I think the B key will swap focus to the PiP box, and you can change inputs, channels, etc. on it

[18:49:35]

gbee:

Ace2016: yes, although by default – without guide data – recordings default to 30 minutes in length

[18:50:04]

gbee:

you can setup a manual schedule for longer periods, but that involves slightly more than just pressing record

[18:50:13]

Ace2016:

does mythtv get channel data from the dvb (s and t) transmissions or from the times guide?

[18:50:56]

gbee:

for DVB it can get it from the transmission (EIT), for STBs and analogue you need the radiotimes (XMLTV) feed setup

[18:51:01]

|Torg|:

you mean EIT, yes

[18:51:39]

Ace2016:

stb = Set-top box?

[18:52:11]

jarle:

Will I have to get a dvb-s2 card to watch these channels: http://www.lyngsat.com/hd/1west.html, or will my old Terratec Cinergy 1200 dvb-s do the trick?

[18:52:52]

Ace2016:

HDtv needs dvb-s2

[18:52:53]

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[18:53:20]

fbnts:

one other question, where is the keybinding located for the PiP button so that I can set it up with my remote?

[18:54:24]

Ace2016:

probably in the mqsql database, thats where i'd expect to find it

[18:54:41]

Ace2016:

can anyone confirm that?

[18:55:53]

|Torg|:

confirm what, the transports are in the database? yes. The EIT information is in the database? yes it is cached, the guide info is updated in the database? yes

[18:56:37]

Ace2016:

|Torg|: the keybindings

[18:56:38]

fbnts:

sorry, last question I promise! Has anyone had any experience with the Zalman HTPC cases? How well are they supported?

[18:57:30]

Ace2016:

fbnts: you mean the accessories that come along with it? like the lcd at the front and the imon remote? or what?

[18:57:33]

|Torg|:

Ace2016: yes, in a table called keybindings

[18:58:27]

fbnts:

yes sorry the LCD screen, remote control? I was thinking of getting one and building the rest custom to Linux compatible hardware

[18:58:34]

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[18:59:04]

Ace2016:

yea the imon remote control systems allow the system to be shutdown and restarted with the remote

[18:59:22]

Ace2016:

although my case was only just ordered

[18:59:36]

Ace2016:

so custom case with imon and an lcd will do

[18:59:42]

Ace2016:

its whats inside that counts

[18:59:44]

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[18:59:55]

Ace2016:

bye all. need foor

[18:59:58]

Ace2016:

food*

[19:00:10]

fbnts:

cya

[19:00:21]

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[19:01:03]

jarle:

so anybody able to recommend a good dvb-s2 card to be used with mythtv?

[19:02:17]

fbnts:

thanks for your help, no doubt I will be back with more questions at some point! :-)

[19:02:44]

gbee:

jarle: if you get an answer I'd be interested, last I heard there aren't any supported DVB-S2 cards yet

[19:02:52]

gbee:

mkrufky might know

[19:02:55]

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[19:03:28]

gbee:

Nova-HD-S2 may be supported soon I guess

[19:03:37]

jarle:

gbee: http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVB-S2_PCI_Cards, but I was hoping for more background information.

[19:04:09]

gbee:

jarle: yeah and I nearly bought the Nova-HD-S2 only to be told that that page is all wrong

[19:05:16]

jarle:

gbee: my provider just released 6 new HD channels using dvb-s2 the other day, so it would be great if I was able to watch them. :)

[19:05:22]

gbee:

well that "experimental support" basically means "handful of patches floating around the net, nothing in the repos"

[19:06:01]

gbee:

jarle: yeah, our HD channels are supposed to be going DVB-S2 soon so I'd really like to find a working S2 card

[19:12:53]

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[19:23:51]

psofa:

gbee, unfortunately thats true , at least for my tt 3200

[19:24:06]

psofa:

gbee, you have to hunt stuff in mailing lists

[19:24:35]

psofa:

plus im having trouble with locking in some transpoders.

[19:24:35]

gbee:

they need a proper bug/patch tracker

[19:25:25]

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[19:32:40]

mkrufky:

what might i know, gbee?

[19:33:04]

gbee:

just occassionally I tire of the lack of drivers in linux, I wish manufacturers would pull their fingers out or that the people making money from linux invested more of it back into driver development

[19:33:58]

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[19:34:00]

mkrufky:

im not sure what that has to do with me... but ok

[19:34:04]

gbee:

mkrufky: we're talking about DVB-S2 cards and the support (or lack of it) in the repos, just thought that given your proximity to driver development you might be able to recommend one or two working cards

[19:34:19]

mkrufky:

i cant recommend — i dont speak dvb-s

[19:34:28]

gbee:

np

[19:34:35]

mkrufky:

this is not a vendor support lack of info problem

[19:34:45]

mkrufky:

this is more of a "devloper has sand in his vagina" problem

[19:34:53]

gbee:

heh

[19:34:58]

Andreaz:

ouch

[19:35:08]

mkrufky:

one day somebody will swallow their pride and merge in the code

[19:35:11]

mkrufky:

and all will be happy

[19:35:22]

mkrufky:

until then, terrestrial and cable

[19:35:27]

gbee:

yet again egos get in the way

[19:35:28]

mkrufky:

meanwhile, most s2 is not FTA, afaik

[19:35:32]

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[19:35:57]

gbee:

says the guy who gets upset at Gloss, linuxmce etc

[19:36:00]

gbee:

...

[19:36:36]

gbee:

mkrufky: well over in the UK it is, or rather the FTA DVB-S will be switching to S2 in the near future

[19:37:36]

gbee:

hence my interest and Jarle says six new HD channels have just launched using S2 where he is – I assume they are FTA or he wouldn't be interested

[19:38:20]

mkrufky:

oh well

[19:39:00]

mkrufky:

just so you know... in this case, there was a big contraversey — everybody EXCEPT the developer wants to merge in s2 support

[19:39:05]

jarle:

gbee: they are not FTA, just have a look at http://www.lyngsat.com/hd/1west.html for the channels I'm talking about.

[19:39:13]

mkrufky:

that developer claims "it isnt ready"

[19:39:21]

gbee:

jarle: no, oh well

[19:39:46]

gbee:

mkrufky: ugh

[19:40:27]

mkrufky:

technically, since it's all gpl.... we COULD go merge it against his desire

[19:40:36]

mkrufky:

but.. .well, that just isnt friendly either

[19:40:43]

mkrufky:

i think its a stale-mate for now :-(

[19:41:14]

mkrufky:

anyway.... this is what you *want* to hear.............

[19:41:25]

mkrufky:

i cannot confirm it, but supposedly dvb-s2 works with the forked kernel

[19:41:36]

mkrufky:

and I know that the Hauppauge HVR4000 is supported under that fork

[19:41:50]

mkrufky:

there are various different forks ... supposedly all of them work

[19:41:54]

mkrufky:

and the api is not standard at all

[19:42:02]

gbee:

well thanks for the info :)

[19:42:17]

raa:

hmm. that forked kernel ? :) i have hvr4000

[19:42:24]

mkrufky:

one guy in the UK did a hack that lets you use the standard dvb-s API to control a dvb0-s2 card ...... that's nice, because it lets existing apps work without any changes

[19:42:29]

mkrufky:

but i have no idea how that works

[19:43:02]

mkrufky:

meanwhile.... once merged, afaik, dvb-s2 will need an actual dvb-s2 api

[19:43:12]

gbee:

whether I bother chasing forks and patches remains to be seen, I've got enough to do without the hassle ....

[19:43:30]

mkrufky:

so, any efforts to support dvb-s2 will be temporary........ long-term temporary, it looks like :-(

[19:47:05]

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[20:01:51]

sphery:

gbee: yeah, it was the NAS dependency (actually requires a running sound server) that made me completely dislike QSound. AIUI, Phonon, at least, only requires gstreamer to be installed.

[20:02:11]

sphery:

The ffmpeg approach is much better, though. (Better, but also more work. :( )

[20:04:13]

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[20:14:49]

lanuser:

What's the best way to handle a STB that keeps going into sleep/off mode because it can't detect a powered up TV?

[20:15:36]

iamlindoro_:

find a remote key that causes it to wake up but has no effect on the screen, and map that to the beginning of your channel change script?

[20:15:41]

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[20:15:53]

iamlindoro_:

the "Exit" type key is probably best for that kind of thing

[20:16:23]

iamlindoro_:

That or see if the service menu for your STB has the option to disable sleep

[20:16:45]

lanuser:

iamlindoro_ thanks, I'll give that a try

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[20:23:49]

sphery:

I hate it when people jump on and immediately exit once they get an answer...

[20:24:21]

iamlindoro_:

sphery: I'll take that over someone arguing me about how inconvenient the answer is for them :)

[20:24:22]

sphery:

Now I can't ask lanuser which STB he's using and if it's truly off or just "asleep".

[20:24:49]

iamlindoro_:

er arguing *with*

[20:24:52]

sphery:

If off, and depending on the STB, I might have been able to tell him about a discrete on/off code for his remote...

[20:25:25]

sphery:

iamlindoro_: that's definitely true. We have far too much of the arguing thing you mentioned.

[20:25:54]

iamlindoro_:

sphery, precisely the reason I don't help in #ubuntu-mythtv any more :)

[20:26:14]

iamlindoro_:

The other day was the last straw-- question re: Why doesn't my mythfilldatabase work from cron.

[20:26:26]

iamlindoro_:

I explained it shouldn't be run from cron anyway, and how to set up mythbackend to run it

[20:26:40]

sphery:

Though, really, iamlindoro_ , you should find a way to change the world/technology/politics/... so you can give them the answer they want. You do have a reputation as a harbinger of doom...

[20:26:47]

iamlindoro_:

He didn't like that answer, and said, "Is there anyone else who might know, maybe someone who knows what they are talking about?"

[20:26:57]

sphery:

wow

[20:27:07]

iamlindoro_:

sphery, It's not paranoia when they're actually out to get you, is it? :)

[20:27:14]

sphery:

I don't understand why people think that a cron-based mfdb is a good thing...

[20:27:15]

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[20:27:53]

sphery:

not sure about that, but I am pretty sure that sometimes "they" do go after paranoid people.

[20:28:13]

iamlindoro_:

I actually think that the #ubuntu-mythtv channel is a great idea, but the SNR is wayyyy too high in there

[20:28:22]

sphery:

really?

[20:28:37]

dustybin:

SNR?

[20:28:42]

sphery:

I assumed it would be more directed. I guess I didn't account for the Ubuntu community thing, though.

[20:28:49]

iamlindoro_:

dustybin, Signal to Noise Ratio

[20:28:57]

dustybin:

aye ok

[20:29:11]

sphery:

Oh, I thought you meant Saturday Night Rive :)

[20:29:20]

iamlindoro_:

sphery, Don't get me wrong, there's four or five people who are usually right on... but more often than not I would pull up that tab and it was the blind helping the blind

[20:29:28]

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[20:29:43]

dustybin:

shame we all dont live near justinh we could go to his rave party

[20:29:44]

sphery:

Oh, I thought you were talking about stray topics (like this one) rather than bad help/bad advice.

[20:30:03]

iamlindoro_:

Which is fine, but I expect not to be treated rudely when I give a right answer someone doesn't like :)

[20:30:09]

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[20:30:15]

iamlindoro_:

crazy, I know

[20:31:02]

sphery:

Yeah. And in generally, when you're volunteering your time to help someone, they should /not/ be treating you rudely (even if you were giving bad advice--notice subjuntive mood, indicating that you were /not/ giving bad advice)

[20:32:18]

sphery:

similar to the mfdb run through housekeeping vs cron, it will be interesting to see how many people disable the automatic DB backups in Myth.

[20:33:06]

sphery:

Once the initial set of patches go in, I'll add another that actually does a (near) daily backup (and analyze, optimize, and--if necessary--restore) of the DB automatically.

[20:33:22]

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[20:33:28]

sphery:

I have a feeling that the people most likely to disable that feature are those who are most likely to need the backups. :)

[20:34:35]

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[20:34:48]

sphery:

i.e. control freaks who think they can do it better themselves and who, similarly, go in and edit the DB directly because they can't trust/be bothered to use the UI tools (or documented approaches) to change things.

[20:35:26]

gnome42:

sphery: I run mythfilldb and daily backups from cron. They both take significant resources and I need to be able to control at what time they run.

[20:35:57]

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[20:36:43]

sphery:

gnome42: the code I'll add to do the DB backups will take into account what's happening on the system and will only do backups when there's time to finish before the next scheduled recording

[20:37:01]

sphery:

gnome42: and, when that's in place, mfdb will be modified to work the same

[20:37:34]

gnome42:

sphery: I figured you would work something like that in. :)

[20:37:36]

sphery:

that's why the backups will be "near" daily :). Backup will be skipped if it's impossible to run it during the allowed times due to recordings.

[20:37:47]

sphery:

mfdb won't be skipped, though

[20:37:50]

gnome42:

k, cool

[20:38:36]

sphery:

so, in your case, I can understand using cron (for now ;), but I think a lot of people just do it because they didn't take the time to learn how things have changed since MythTV 0.02 or whatever

[20:41:24]

iamlindoro_:

sphery, It appeared to be exactly that in this case

[20:41:31]

gnome42:

yeah, in my case, my master backend does a lot of other non-myth things including being the backup server so I have mythfill, db backup, optimize etc. all slotted in various timeslots.

[20:41:42]

iamlindoro_:

Sort of a "if it's on the internet it *must* be right" sort of moment

[20:44:09]

sphery:

So, anyone have any ideas how I can make a reliable new-hostname database restore script? Basically, I need to do the global replace shown at http://mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-23.html#ss23.15 , but if people choose stupid^H^H^H^H^H^Hother-than-ideal hostnames (like video or myth or ...) for their old hostnames, it will do a /lot/ of damage.

[20:45:49]

sphery:

I've been thinking of a) simply warning the user and letting him/her know of the danger (and leaving it up to the user) or b) trying to identify a list of likely-to-be-used-bad-hostnames (perhaps downloaded from services.mythtv.org ) and checking the hostnames against that list.

[20:45:54]

janneg:

sphery: add sql queries which replace the hostname for each table that has hostname field

[20:46:09]

sphery:

The hard part of b) is identifying the bad names

[20:46:44]

sphery:

janneg: the reason we don't do a replacement only for hostname fields is because of data that includes hostname (i.e. settings values for storage groups, and much more)

[20:47:04]

sphery:

check a DB backup to see how commonly the hostname appears in a place that's not just a hostname field.

[20:47:34]

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[20:48:02]

sphery:

The best approach is probably a new-hardware restore ( http://mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-23.html#ss23.7 --which the script can already do, now), though many won't like reconfiguring.

[20:48:04]

janneg:

sphery: do you have an example? I would consider this a bug in the database layout

[20:48:07]

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[20:48:31]

sphery:

janneg: let me boot my dev box (much smaller DB)

[20:49:42]

janneg:

sphery: the storagegroup table uses only the hostname field

[20:49:46]

sphery:

the Storage Groups one I'm thinking of is SGweightPerDir (i.e. SGweightPerDir:<hostname>:<directory> )

[20:49:53]

sphery:

it's in settings

[20:50:01]

sphery:

undocumented setting, though... :)

[20:50:18]

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[20:51:01]

janneg:

sphery: ah, so it's only the settings table

[20:51:30]

sphery:

houskeeping has JobQueueRecover-<hostname>, though it's harmless to lose (and harmless to leave old garbage ones)

[20:51:43]

** sphery is starting to think it's a Captain_Murdoch thing... ;) **

[20:52:23]

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[20:52:29]

sphery:

I've got hostname in data in mythweb_sessions

[20:52:58]

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[20:53:02]

janneg:

we should replace the ones in settings since we have there already the hostname field

[20:53:36]

janneg:

sphery: are you sure that's hostname mythtv cares about

[20:53:44]

sphery:

the SGweightPerDir has to have a hostname equal to the master backend's hostname, so it encodes the slave backend hostname into the value to say to whom the master should apply that

[20:54:13]

dustybin:

do the guys who code windows MCE have a IRC chatroom like this?

[20:54:24]

sid3windr:

lol

[20:54:44]

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[20:55:13]

sphery:

janneg: for more on SGweightPerDir http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/269092#269092

[20:55:28]

sphery:

So, it seems those are the only places.

[20:55:46]

sphery:

So, it's really not that big a deal to miss those.

[20:55:53]

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[20:55:54]

janneg:

sphery: I still think my approach would be the safest and work for a standard setup

[20:56:05]

sphery:

(or, having identified them, I could modify them appropriately)

[20:56:15]

sphery:

Yeah. It is definitely the safest.

[20:57:10]

sphery:

Think writing code to loop over the list of tables using desc to find out if there's a hostname column and, if so, modifying its data is good enough?

[20:57:36]

sphery:

I don't want to require maintaining a list of all the tables that have hostname columns in the restore script.

[20:57:55]

janneg:

users are have already and will name their backends mythtv, video, myth, ...

[20:58:13]

sphery:

Yeah.

[20:58:39]

sphery:

So, I just assumed Robert's warning, "NOTE: Changing the hostname using direct SQL update commands will break things. You MUST use this indirect method." was because of hostname in non-hostname fields

[20:58:50]

janneg:

sphery: yes, and those list would have to be database schema version specific

[20:59:03]

sphery:

Anyone have any more details on why it's their (just a "can't trust the end user" thing?)

[20:59:08]

sphery:

it's there

[20:59:45]

janneg:

so iterating over all tables and checking desc for hostname makes more sense

[21:00:05]

sphery:

janneg: Yeah, I don't want schema-version specific stuff. Currently the backup/restore scripts work for any version of Myth (even extremely old ones).

[21:00:28]

sphery:

It's got the DBI/DBD support in it (though it doesn't require it). I can just require it for a new-hostname restore.

[21:00:37]

janneg:

sphery: maybe to avoid users updating the hostname while the backend runs

[21:00:45]

sphery:

that makes sense.

[21:01:23]

gnome42:

the hostname is also encoded into the chainid field of tvchain. That table should be truncated on DB restore though :)

[21:01:26]

sphery:

I guess the worst that could happen is, I'll write it, it will go into SVN, I'll update Robert's docs, and he'll tell me why my approach won't work. So, might as well start the process.

[21:01:55]

abqjp:

Not a bad "hard rock" station: http://72.8.159.14:9102/listen.pls

[21:01:58]

sphery:

gnome42: Oh, yeah. I forgot that there's a /lot/ of stuff I've never done on my dev box (LiveTV, plugins, ...)

[21:02:06]

janneg:

I've once updated a hostname with SQL commands, it was cumbersome but it worked

[21:02:13]

sphery:

perhaps I should check my production DB (200MB backup... :(

[21:02:45]

janneg:

sphery: most of that are the seek tables

[21:03:16]

sphery:

janneg: Cool. Thanks for the plan. I had no idea how to do it with a global replace and make it reliable, so I'm glad to hear that a SQL-based approach /can/ work.

[21:03:26]

gnome42:

janneg: I did it once too ... dump -> sed -> restore was fairly easy

[21:03:34]

janneg:

I'm not convinced that it was a good idea to save them in the database

[21:03:47]

sphery:

true, I guess I could just cut the recordedseek table from the backup before scanning it.

[21:04:18]

sphery:

janneg: save what in the DB?

[21:05:00]

janneg:

gnome42: the second time I setted a alternate hostname in mysql.txt

[21:05:08]

janneg:

sphery: the seek tables

[21:05:35]

sphery:

New question. I already have the new hardware (partial) restore ( http://mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-23.html#ss23.7 ) in the script, but doing that the user loses configuration (expected), but also all plugin-based data.

[21:05:52]

sphery:

Should I add support for "partial" restore of data for MythVideo, MythMusic, etc.?

[21:06:08]

sphery:

and, if so, how best to keep track of table names to restore?

[21:06:36]

sphery:

janneg: Oh, I see. Do you have an idea for a better place to store the seek table?

[21:07:09]

iamlindoro_:

mkrufky, God damn you. I think I'm going to go buy a PS3 after work.

[21:07:44]

janneg:

extra file, alternate file stream, or private sections in mpeg-ts

[21:07:52]

sphery:

cool\

[21:08:12]

mkrufky:

:-?

[21:08:24]

iamlindoro_:

mkrufky, you got me thinking about HD-PVR streams :)

[21:08:45]

iamlindoro_:

Erm... somewhere back in the channel history :)

[21:08:49]

mkrufky:

heh... amazing... ive been quiet for hours

[21:08:52]

mkrufky:

lol

[21:09:11]

mkrufky:

ps3 works — stoth proved it

[21:09:38]

mkrufky:

i want a ps3, but i havent played much video games lately, and i _really_ like the mythfrontend gui

[21:09:49]

iamlindoro_:

last time I tryied to remux HD-PVR streams with ffmpeg, it choked, will have to do some work to to figure that bit out

[21:09:50]

mkrufky:

so im gonna hold out a bit more for another solution

[21:10:01]

janneg:

yeah, back to driver programming now

[21:10:07]

mkrufky:

:-D

[21:11:24]

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[21:11:35]

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[21:11:36]

iamlindoro_:

mkrufky, I have a strong suspicion that xport (which compiles okay on linux) ought to be able to demux Hd-PVR output... once I've got the elementary streams, should be possible to remux with ffmpeg, etc.

[21:12:04]

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[21:13:33]

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[21:15:07]

mkrufky:

so, you're just remuxing, not transcoding?

[21:15:34]

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[21:15:43]

iamlindoro_:

yeah, I will probably leave the streams alone

[21:17:11]

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[21:17:53]

mkrufky:

yeah, i'd do the same

[21:18:02]

iamlindoro_:

I likes my pretties :)

[21:18:14]

mkrufky:

now, if only you can do that remuxing in realtime, such that the original never needs to be written to disk

[21:18:21]

mkrufky:

:-)

[21:19:10]

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[21:19:49]

iamlindoro_:

6 Mbit 1080i looked *rough*... will play around at 13.5 Mbit/s tonight, I expect to be much more impressed :)

[21:20:32]

abqjp:

The *only* advantage to me not having a HD-PVR right now, is that by the time I get one (again), iamlindoro will have it all figured out for me.

[21:20:37]

iamlindoro_:

heh

[21:20:47]

mkrufky:

again?

[21:20:51]

iamlindoro_:

abqjp, FWIW as I get to the bottom of things I add them to the wiki :)

[21:21:36]

abqjp:

I had to RMA my HD-PVR. Got bit by the "new" Ambarella chip.

[21:22:00]

iamlindoro_:

I have recorded up to an hour so far. Have been testing upwards in 15 minute increments w/o issue so far

[21:22:01]

abqjp:

mkrufky, you did see this, didn't you: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php . . . post14071316

[21:22:11]

mkrufky:

NO COMMENT

[21:22:13]

mkrufky:

oops

[21:22:15]

mkrufky:

sorry for caps

[21:23:24]

mkrufky:

anyway, no i didnt see it,. but yes i know about it

[21:23:42]

iamlindoro_:

abqjp, Expecting it "soonish," yes?

[21:23:51]

abqjp:

I think they are sending me with the "old" Ambarella chip, and I should have it early next week.

[21:23:57]

iamlindoro_:

nice

[21:24:19]

abqjp:

I have no idea what is different between the "new" and "old" chip.

[21:24:33]

iamlindoro_:

The driver is improving at a fast clip, too, so it only benefits you in the end :) although I bet you are like me in that you like the goofing around part as much as everything else :)

[21:24:38]

mkrufky:

X many degrees

[21:24:56]

abqjp:

iamlindoro, yup.

[21:26:11]

abqjp:

I'd like to think the driver came out just a little faster because of my contribution — so it is good that I had a HD-PVR when I did.

[21:26:21]

iamlindoro_:

Definitely!

[21:26:38]

iamlindoro_:

I think you definitely deserve $alcoholicbeverage

[21:26:55]

abqjp:

Except that I am not a drinker ;)

[21:27:02]

iamlindoro_:

Feh!

[21:27:27]

abqjp:

janneg put my name in there, although he did 99.5% of it, so I don't know that that was necessary.

[21:27:53]

iamlindoro_:

Humility is a fine quality and speaks well of you

[21:28:14]

abqjp:

Heh

[21:28:32]

mkrufky:

what was your contribution, abqjp?

[21:28:35]

iamlindoro_:

Now go buy the biggest processor you can find, because you are going to need it in linux w/ HD-PVR ;)

[21:28:38]

mkrufky:

did you solve "the challenge" ?

[21:28:44]

abqjp:

Yeah.

[21:28:47]

mkrufky:

awesome!

[21:28:52]

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[21:28:52]

mkrufky:

i was wondering who solved that

[21:29:11]

abqjp:

My frontend has a 3.0GHz Core 2 duo

[21:29:31]

abqjp:

My backend is a old socket 478 motherboard.

[21:29:58]

iamlindoro_:

abqjp, I have 2.2 and 2.6 Ghz C2Ds at home, 2.2 had some stuttering w/ 6 Mbit output from the HD-PVR. Gulp!

[21:30:22]

iamlindoro_:

I think the other machine (haven't tested yet) should manage a bit more... but I think 13.5 Mbit streams are going to choke both of those :)

[21:30:51]

iamlindoro_:

The Hd-PVR output is single sliced, so only one core is usable, :(

[21:31:19]

abqjp:

I manged to capture about 12 seconds of 1080i at 9mbit before my HD-PVR would freeze. My frontend played it fine (using Internal), when it played it.

[21:31:46]

abqjp:

Unfortunately, mythfrontend would crash 1 second in 2/3 of the time.

[21:32:08]

abqjp:

Unfortunately, mythfrontend would crash 1 second into the clip, 2/3 of the time.

[21:32:24]

iamlindoro_:

there are some improvements coming down the line in ffmpeg that should improve playback, thank god

[21:32:35]

|Torg|:

abqjp: is your Fe strong enogh to play h464? I had the same thing happen with slower cpus

[21:32:45]

abqjp:

I am hoping that the crash was caused by the stream being "out of sync".

[21:32:45]

|Torg|:

err 264

[21:33:37]

abqjp:

My frontend has a Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz

[21:33:50]

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[21:34:40]

abqjp:

When my frontend played the clip, it was beautiful! Just was annoying to have to re-start Myth a couple of times before it would play.

[21:34:50]

iamlindoro_:

I'm so out of date on what the sexy new Intel product codes are

[21:35:27]

abqjp:

The E8400 is second from the top-of-the-line, in the non-enthusiast line-up.

[21:35:36]

abqjp:

-- for dual cores.

[21:36:17]

abqjp:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037

[21:36:20]

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[21:36:24]

iamlindoro_:

yeah, QX line $ to sexy ratio is a little too painful for my wallet :)

[21:37:02]

mkrufky:

i'm holding out for a quad

[21:37:05]

abqjp:

I want a X3350 based system for my backend :p

[21:37:19]

abqjp:

Need it to process those H.264 commercials!

[21:37:27]

mkrufky:

i want a platform that will let me have three monitors with 3d & mpeg accel on all screens

[21:37:34]

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[21:37:39]

mkrufky:

and i will just keep on dreaming, for now

[21:37:55]

|Torg|:

and I want SLI not to kill my other two monitors

[21:37:57]

iamlindoro_:

I am reading the GSoC mailing list for ffmpeg, Alex Strange is working his balls off on the new multithreading stuff

[21:38:12]

abqjp:

Awesome!

[21:38:16]

mkrufky:

thats a cool name!

[21:38:54]

abqjp:

Thank you. Or did you mean "Alex Strange"?

[21:39:01]

mkrufky:

yes

[21:39:08]

abqjp:

:p

[21:39:35]

abqjp:

What is the SNR on GSoC?

[21:39:48]

sphery:

but regarding your name, how come sometimes Albuquerque comes first and sometimes last?

[21:39:56]

iamlindoro_:

abqjp, I think it's better on ffmpeg than most projects

[21:40:01]

abqjp:

home/work — and I am lazy.

[21:40:06]

iamlindoro_:

abqjp, They seem to keep them extremely on-task

[21:40:29]

|Torg|:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115017

[21:40:39]

iamlindoro_:

And the ground rules are pretty strict, ie, if you don't contact the list and your mentor for two weeks, you're fired

[21:40:53]

sphery:

iamlindoro_: I wonder how they do it? I didn't see how the Myth mentors could have done more without being within stick's reach of the students we had...

[21:41:28]

iamlindoro_:

sphery, By being peopled entirely by viciously mean freakshows, from what I've always gathered from ffmpeg-dev :)

[21:41:58]

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[21:42:00]

sphery:

That makes sense. And yet, Myth devs have a reputation for being mean...

[21:42:15]

iamlindoro_:

sphery, yeah, but at least most myth devs like each *other*, heh

[21:42:22]

sphery:

lol\

[21:43:31]

iamlindoro_:

sphery, really, though, they laid down what appeared to be very strict and regimented ground rules at the beginning.. lemme see if I can find that post

[21:43:55]

abqjp:

|Torg|, price:performance on the Q6600 is very good.

[21:44:26]

|Torg|:

I got it specificaly for h264

[21:45:20]

abqjp:

At the time I bought my E8400, the ability to decode using multiple-cores was just a dream, so I went for the GHz.

[21:46:39]

|Torg|:

I had mine since last year, it was a frys sale for Black Friday

[21:47:08]

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[21:48:32]

|Torg|:

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 w/ ECS 671T-M Motherboard = $199

[21:48:56]

abqjp:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?It . . . Tpk=ep45-dq6 !!!!

[21:49:21]

iamlindoro_:

Holy eth{1,2,3,4}, Batman

[21:49:42]

abqjp:

10 SATA

[21:49:48]

|Torg|:

hell there used to be QFE cards a long time ago, 4 interfaces is not that new a comcept

[21:49:52]

Dagmar:

Yeah, very clearly not meant to be a home-use board

[21:49:59]

|Torg|:

before that were sbus QE cards

[21:50:20]

Dagmar:

That's designed to be a VM server

[21:50:22]

abqjp:

I want it for a backend, although I would have add some more SATA ports...

[21:50:38]

|Torg|:

get a sata-2 pci card

[21:50:50]

janneg:

lol

[21:50:55]

iamlindoro_:

abqjp, that'd be a neat backend, especially if you had a lot of frontends and bonded the interfaces

[21:51:10]

sphery:

iamlindoro_: yeah, I can't figure out a reason for more than 2 ethernet ports in a system...

[21:51:23]

abqjp:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132011

[21:51:31]

abqjp:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132018

[21:51:33]

|Torg|:

like iamlindoro said bonding

[21:51:34]

iamlindoro_:

sphery, Aside from bonding the ethernet interfaces, I suppose... but still :)

[21:51:46]

sphery:

guess the VM thing makes more sense than anything else I've heard

[21:51:56]

Dagmar:

Why in god's name would you need to bond the interfaces

[21:52:04]

Dagmar:

They're GigE

[21:52:07]

|Torg|:

yes but Id ratehr have more CPUS then anything else

[21:52:08]

iamlindoro_:

Dagmar, Yeah, only if you were running a myth-based hotel or something

[21:52:53]

iamlindoro_:

sounds like the kind of thing CCFL_man would buy and implement w/ his home headend :D

[21:53:04]

Dagmar:

The utility in having four, physically separate interfaces, is that you can put your VMs in and only allow them access to certain ones, and those interfaces can be put on separate VLANs on the switch

[21:53:14]

sphery:

I wonder if the system could actually keep up with pushing GigE speeds on 4 interfaces concurrently...

[21:53:31]

Dagmar:

sphery: I have my doubts about that as well, which is why I question the idea of bonding them together

[21:53:47]

sphery:

perhaps for redundancy versus throughput

[21:53:51]

sphery:

:)

[21:53:56]

abqjp:

It uses a PCIe switch to driver the 4 eth, plus the two 4-lane PCIe buses.

[21:55:19]

abqjp:

Cheaper at ZipZoomfly, if someone actually wanted to buy one.

[21:57:57]

|Torg|:

what I cant figure out is why nobody makes multi cpu motherboards anymore, there all in servers now and VM blades

[21:58:26]

abqjp:

They are much more expensive, and Intel has announce an 8 core chip for early 2009.

[21:58:46]

|Torg|:

not core, cpu

[21:58:58]

abqjp:

Supermicro still makes them, don't they?

[21:59:37]

abqjp:

|Torg|, right, but with an 8 core chip, the rational for multiple cpus decreases.

[21:59:45]

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[21:59:47]

|Torg|:

runq

[22:00:26]

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[22:05:27]

EvilGuru:

|Torg|: Didn't Intel take a pop at the multi-CPU market with skulltrain

[22:05:40]

EvilGuru:

And a year or so before that AMD tried with 4x4

[22:05:48]

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[22:06:12]

|Torg|:

yes but it was horably expensive

[22:06:14]

EvilGuru:

Although from what I read both were total train wreaks

[22:07:00]

EvilGuru:

I remember the good old PIII days, where 2 of them would quite happily run in SMP

[22:07:10]

|Torg|:

multi-cpu is a bit of a hardware trick too, id assume they run them paraelel. BUt I cant see charging 10x for the motherboards

[22:07:34]

|Torg|:

HP, IBM and Sun have had multicpu boxes for years

[22:08:04]

|Torg|:

hell I have a 25mhz (yes I twenty five) dual core ROSS spark IX box, its something like 15 years old

[22:08:26]

EvilGuru:

My myth box is a 2x1Ghz PIII

[22:08:33]

|Torg|:

err IV

[22:08:58]

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[22:09:19]

|Torg|:

and sorry its not dual core, its dual cpu there were only moltih cpus at that time

[22:10:27]

abqjp:

Sun's new T2 based systems are incredible — and relatively cheap ~$50k

[22:10:51]

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[22:11:07]

|Torg|:

my sunblade 2k is still my workhorse, can render html pages mutiple times faster then my Q6600 every could

[22:11:28]

|Torg|:

but that had more to do with bandwidth to bus, fully meshed memory and the backplane then cpu

[22:11:50]

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[22:12:26]

abqjp:

|Torg|, really? what CPU is in your blade? Mine only had a 900MHz, and it was molasses compared to my Xeon X3360 based system.

[22:13:01]

|Torg|:

dual 900's

[22:13:35]

abqjp:

|Torg|, Yeah, that is what mine had too. I wonder why yours is so much faster. How much RAM?

[22:14:18]

|Torg|:

8G

[22:14:48]

abqjp:

Ah, mine only had 2G. Bet that's it. Mine was definitely RAM starved — I was always into SWAP.

[22:15:02]

abqjp:

Sun charges too much for RAM.

[22:15:13]

|Torg|:

well when you get it free from Sun ::)

[22:15:32]

abqjp:

humph.

[22:15:54]

|Torg|:

hey it was listed as a home computer :)

[22:16:06]

abqjp:

heh

[22:16:32]

|Torg|:

its still running solaris 9 tho I have no need for 10

[22:17:31]

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[22:19:10]

|Torg|:

0 900 MHz 8MB SUNW,UltraSPARC-III+ 2.3 65C 26C +-board/cpu0

[22:19:10]

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[22:19:16]

|Torg|:

there are two of them

[22:20:37]

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[22:21:08]

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[22:23:45]

abqjp:

iamlindoro, is the HD-PVR working reliably? Do you have to set it's input/bitrate before each capture?

[22:25:51]

iamlindoro:

abqjp: Not before each capture, just once and it sets it in the driver

[22:25:57]

Dagmar:

*headdesk* This is OT but I am disgusted to find out the BBB here has actually launched one of those damn payday debit card programs.

[22:26:15]

Dagmar:

They should know better. I can see myself making a lot of "crank/nutjob" calls next week

[22:26:19]

iamlindoro:

abqjp: My hardware appears to be reliable, I have run into a few snags with the driver that should be fixed up in the near future

[22:26:38]

abqjp:

cool.

[22:26:56]

Dagmar:

iamlindoro: I found epic fail in MythWeb last night.

[22:27:06]

abqjp:

I accused janne of never sleeping, but he assures me that he does — daily :p

[22:27:12]

iamlindoro:

Dagmar: Heh, yeah?

[22:27:22]

iamlindoro:

abqjp: Maybe he's on a US sleep pattern :)

[22:27:33]

Dagmar:

Like, it's a completely understandable thing because mythweb wasn't built with being exposed to the internet in mind but...

[22:27:34]

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[22:27:59]

Dagmar:

I'm waiting on a response from a friend I know just wrote a thing about this on memestreams, but http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/methods.html somewhat covers it

[22:28:21]

Dagmar:

Basically, GET requests are not supposed to result in a change of state on the web server side.

[22:28:33]

Dagmar:

This means web spiders will crawl those links.

[22:28:42]

iamlindoro:

ahh

[22:28:53]

Dagmar:

So, somehow earlier this week, Google found out what port my mythweb was on.

[22:28:59]

iamlindoro:

Glad mine is safely in-network :)

[22:29:08]

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[22:29:16]

Dagmar:

I figured, "Let's see what happens" so I dropped the auth requirement for Google and removed the robots.txt file

[22:29:40]

Dagmar:

It um, iteratively deleted every recording, and marked craptons of stuff to never be recorded again.

[22:29:48]

Dagmar:

5733 queries.

[22:29:52]

iamlindoro:

holy shit

[22:29:54]

sphery:

Dagmar: http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/2517

[22:30:09]

Dagmar:

SO I suppose we won't have to worry about many people leaving all their recordings findable by Google. :)

[22:30:21]

sphery:

BTW, it's a /recommendation/, not a requirement that GET is safe and idempotent.

[22:30:21]

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[22:30:31]

Dagmar:

Whoa 21 months ago?

[22:30:40]

sphery:

yeah, and closed wontfix

[22:30:44]

Dagmar:

I'll look into it

[22:31:05]

|Torg|:

dont expose your myth backend to the internet???

[22:31:21]

Dagmar:

The thing the guy on memestreams had posted had methods for getting around it. Once I find that damn article again I'll see what I can come up with

[22:31:36]

sphery:

Dagmar: I, personally, do /not/ want to see 800 Submit buttons on my recordings page (400 Delete + 400 Delete and allow Re-record), and we need something that works without JavaScript for lite.

[22:31:59]

Dagmar:

sphery: Well, the options are basically build the app "wrong" or have submit buttons

[22:32:01]

sphery:

and the /only/ way to do POST in HTML (no JavaScript) is with a form.

[22:32:06]

Dagmar:

It's not like you can't control how they look

[22:32:06]

sphery:

but it's not wrong

[22:32:09]

sphery:

it's a recommendation

[22:32:09]

Dagmar:

It *is* wrong.

[22:32:17]

sphery:

no, did you read the spec?

[22:32:32]

Dagmar:

Yes, I did actually

[22:32:39]

Dagmar:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/methods.html quotes parts of ti

[22:32:54]

Dagmar:

Luckily for me, I was around and watching the discussions when these specs were being laid out

[22:33:10]

Dagmar:

I remember the screams of the agonized when Google first started aggressively molesting sites that didn't pay attention

[22:33:34]

Dagmar:

The highly obscure word "idempotent" threw lots of people apparently.

[22:33:37]

sphery:

Dagmar: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2616.html , section 9.1 "Safe and Idempotent Methods"

[22:34:02]

raa:

is there a easy way to import channels.txt from the cmd "scan astra >channels.conf"

[22:34:22]

Dagmar:

"But here, in fact, idempotent processing means that a form submission causes no changes anywhere except on the user's screen (or, more generally speaking, in the user agent's state). Thus, it is basically for retrieving data. If such a form is resubmitted, it might get different data (if the data had been changed meanwhile), but the submission would not cause any update of data or other events."

[22:35:41]

sphery:

that's a definition of safety, not idempotence

[22:36:12]

sphery:

"Methods can also have the property of 'idempotence' in that (aside from error or expiration issues) the side-effects of N > 0 identical requests is the same as for a single request."

[22:37:23]

Dagmar:

Keep reading the page

[22:38:18]

sphery:

Yeah, /no where/ in the HTTP specification does it say you must use POST for actions that are not safe or are not idempotent.

[22:38:29]

sphery:

If HTML is saying so, it's overstepping it's bounds.

[22:38:55]

Dagmar:

How is it overstepping it's bounds?

[22:38:56]

sphery:

My browser "sees" HTML, but it "speaks" HTTP.

[22:39:54]

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[22:39:55]

sphery:

Funny, too, that when searching the HTML spec, I don't see the "quote". I wonder what those "minor stylistic changes" are...

[22:40:34]

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[22:41:25]

Dagmar:

Section 9.1.1 Safe Methods: In particular, the convention has been established that the GET and HEAD methods SHOULD NOT have the significance of taking an action other than retrieval. These methods ought to be considered "safe".

[22:41:38]

Dagmar:

Right there in RC2616

[22:41:42]

Dagmar:

s/RC/RFC/;

[22:41:47]

Dagmar:

It's annoying, but it's real.

[22:41:54]

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[22:41:56]

sphery:

right, but "SHOULD NOT" and "ought to be" are recommendations

[22:42:02]

sphery:

not "MUST NOT"

[22:42:24]

sphery:

section 1.2 Requirements

[22:42:34]

sphery:

and RFC 2119

[22:42:35]

Dagmar:

If one has to have MUST to be made to avoid bad behaviours, one is writing code that's going to have problems

[22:42:51]

Dagmar:

SHOULD reqs must necessarily be taken with a grain of salt.

[22:42:58]

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[22:43:15]

Dagmar:

...just like there's several SHOULD sections in the RFC for DHCP that when ignored, lead directly to irritating issues.

[22:43:17]

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[22:43:23]

sphery:

SHOULD NOT This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing any behavior described with this label.

[22:43:47]

Dagmar:

Exactly, and here we have a case where allowing a GET to change the state of data on the server results in a bad side-effect

[22:43:56]

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[22:44:09]

iamlindoro:

Mmm, new PS3 is 10 minutes old and already dusty

[22:44:14]

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[22:44:24]

sphery:

I /never/ create a web app that allows a GET request to result in an action that's not idempotent (i.e. charge a credit card, send an e-mail, ...). However, I often choose to allow a GET request to result in an action that's not safe when it improves usability.

[22:44:27]

Dagmar:

iamlindoro: HEPA filters on the HVAC, or maybe dust occasionally

[22:44:39]

iamlindoro:

That latter sounds cheaper :)

[22:44:44]

Dagmar:

heheh

[22:44:47]

iamlindoro:

Off to solid snake-ify!

[22:44:48]

sphery:

Dagmar: did you read xris's comments in the closed ticket?

[22:45:22]

Dagmar:

I'm lazy so I'll spend $12 on a HEPA filter, and let the Roomba deal with the rest

[22:45:27]

Dagmar:

"Until you can tell me how an href can submit via post, it'll have to stay this way."

[22:45:30]

Dagmar:

Yeah I read it.

[22:45:46]

Dagmar:

It just involves changing it to a small form submission

[22:45:53]

sphery:

and, more importantly, "whoever leaves their mythweb open and unsecured to the internet at large deserves whatever problems they invite by doing so"

[22:46:09]

Dagmar:

You know there's things called Google Mini boxes, right?

[22:46:34]

Dagmar:

...where Google will actually give/lease someone a little box that is just for them to have Googling their stuff privately.

[22:47:03]

Dagmar:

I have pictures of the one we just actually got rid of (*sniff*) at work

[22:47:07]

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[22:47:17]

Dagmar:

It's a pretty little robin's egg blue thing

[22:47:56]

Dagmar:

Anyway, I'll dig into what's needed with CSS to skin a submit button to look like what's there now so there'll be no cosmetic change

[22:48:19]

Dagmar:

I know it's possible. I just still have to do my CSS with about five browser tabs open because I can never remember all the damn attributes

[22:48:39]

mkrufky:

iamlindoro you bought one? lol

[22:49:21]

Dagmar:

Saying "your huge mistake eclipses mine" is kind of a lame-out

[22:49:34]

iamlindoro:

mkrufky: yarr ;)

[22:49:41]

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[22:50:13]

iamlindoro:

mkrufky: I figured Solid snake would make it fun, FF XIII is on the way-ish, it's a blu-ray player, and I can figure out how to stream HD-PVR content :)

[22:50:13]

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[22:50:41]

sphery:

Dagmar: IMHO, a better approach would be to allow the user to configure MythWeb to require confirmation of Delete requests.

[22:50:59]

Dagmar:

it's not *just* delete requests tho

[22:51:16]

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[22:51:17]

sphery:

Dagmar: so the GET request returns a page with a POST form that confirms

[22:51:20]

Dagmar:

Like, I let Google "have at" specifically to see the real-world ramifications

[22:51:38]

Dagmar:

It marked everything as "don't record again" as well and so on

[22:51:42]

Dagmar:

5733 requests

[22:51:51]

Dagmar:

It didn't just misbehave a *little*

[22:52:16]

Dagmar:

It went beyond my wildest dreams in how badly that misbehaved

[22:52:17]

mkrufky:

solid snake is a game, i guess?

[22:52:26]

sphery:

But how will changing the entire application to POST requests improve usability? IMHO, it will make it /much/ less usable.

[22:52:39]

sphery:

Do you realize what happens to the Back button with POST requests?

[22:52:50]

Dagmar:

Yes. I predate HTTP.

[22:53:03]

sphery:

So, you'd basically be disabling the back button for MythWeb.

[22:53:10]

iamlindoro:

mkrufky: Metal gear solid 4

[22:53:27]

iamlindoro:

mkrufky: Goes way back to the original NES

[22:53:32]

Dagmar:

Nope. Just places where permanent state changes have taken place

[22:53:35]

mkrufky:

ah, lol gotcha

[22:53:57]

Dagmar:

If you just marked something as deleted, and hit back, the cached page is still going to show it there

[22:54:05]

sphery:

if the Back button often doesn't work, it doesn't work

[22:54:08]

Dagmar:

...unless you engage in cache-breaking behaviorus

[22:54:25]

sphery:

But, still, a confirmation-based approach (for those who want it) is /much/ nicer, IMHO.

[22:54:29]

Dagmar:

This I've actually run into

[22:55:05]

Dagmar:

I'm somewhat amused that it didn't quite get far enough to have it mark everything as to be recorded

[22:55:33]

sphery:

that requires submitting a form

[22:55:36]

Dagmar:

Exactly

[22:55:50]

sphery:

the bot won't do that, will it?

[22:56:10]

Dagmar:

Of course not. Bots don't generally follow POST links for that reason

[22:56:23]

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[22:56:31]

sphery:

you mean POST forms (there's no such thing as a POST link)

[22:56:49]

Dagmar:

Of course

[22:56:51]

sphery:

but, yeah, I didn't know if you were implying it would submit a GET form

[22:57:12]

sphery:

(I don't know anything about web bots)

[22:57:29]

Dagmar:

Bots will follow/chase GETs and not POSTs because the latter would create complete chaos

[22:58:02]

sphery:

But, my recommendation is to talk to kormoc and xris with a very detailed explanation of your plan before you spend much time trying to "fix" it as I know xris has strong feelings about it.

[22:58:23]

Dagmar:

I figure it'll be easier to swallow if I've already done the footwork

[22:58:44]

sphery:

I think kormoc plans to convert the Recorded Programs page in the default template to use an AJAX-type approach, which may make this a moot point, anyway.

[22:58:47]

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[22:59:02]

mkrufky:

ugh, sometimes im glad chip vendors DONT provide open source drivers

[22:59:12]

mkrufky:

you should see how ugly these reference drivers are

[22:59:42]

sphery:

Yeah. Sometimes it scares me when vendors (like Nokia) buy companies involved in Open Source (like TrollTech). http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content . . . 2_288518.htm

[22:59:56]

EvilGuru:

sphery: What is wrong with that?

[22:59:58]

sphery:

"As an industry, we plan to use open-source technologies but we are not yet ready to play by the rules"

[23:00:05]

mkrufky:

oof

[23:00:12]

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[23:00:18]

EvilGuru:

Nokia are not that bad when it comes to open source, take the N800/N810 for example

[23:00:20]

sphery:

scary article

[23:00:38]

Dagmar:

Ah here's part of what I was looking for http://www.memestreams.net/users/acidus/blogid10327874/

[23:01:16]

sphery:

I will admit, though, that MySQL actually got more open-source after Sun bought it. (MySQL AB was planning on creating proprietary extensions to MySQL. Sun bought the company and said, "We don't need to sell that stuff, so make it open source, too.)

[23:01:33]

Dagmar:

"We even have an idea about how widespread this problem could be. In 2005 Google launched Google Web Accelerator. This was a browser plug in that pre-fetched links on the page you were looking to better utilize your bandwidth. Unfortunately, thousands of sites started breaking because developers all of the world were using simple hyperlinks (which issue a GET) to modify the state of the web app. There was lots of kicking and screaming, [...]

[23:01:52]

Dagmar:

Acidus is a guy who makes his living off bad www behaviours

[23:01:57]

mkrufky:

lol.... their name is "trolltech"

[23:02:07]

mkrufky:

lol, the irony

[23:02:11]

sphery:

Dagmar: Yeah, but still, talk to xris/kormoc. Otherwise, there's a /very/ good chance you'll be wasting your time or forking MythWeb.

[23:02:26]

Dagmar:

Nah, I think I can fix this.

[23:02:47]

Dagmar:

...and I can definitely see how they'd not want to have to go through all teh mess that is working around it without introducing any obvious changes

[23:02:52]

sphery:

but the problem is likely to disappear in the changes that kormoc has planned...

[23:03:00]

Dagmar:

Oh that would be nice

[23:03:19]

Dagmar:

This will also be a good excuse for me to get better (i.e., "stop sucking) at CSS.

[23:03:24]

sphery:

06.13 18:58:43 < sphery> I think kormoc plans to convert the Recorded Programs page in the default template to use an AJAX-type approach, which may make this a moot point, anyway.

[23:03:33]

Dagmar:

I am so envious of people like tigert who make it look so goddamn easy

[23:03:48]

Dagmar:

One little CSS swap and his whole goddamn blog takes on an entirely different aspect

[23:04:29]

Dagmar:

Yeah it's the mere *mention* of AJAX that kept Acidus in my mind about this

[23:04:42]

Dagmar:

...cuz he literally wrote a book on it.

[23:05:10]

Dagmar:

He's also responsible enough that if I talk to him about this, it won't become a "point and laugh" talking point for him

[23:05:21]

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[23:06:11]

Dagmar:

Whatcha wanna bet that HTTP/1.2 makes this a formal requirement of GET

[23:06:46]

Dagmar:

The GWA screaming was something you could have almost heard from the moon

[23:06:57]

Dagmar:

It literally obliterated web forums on sight. :)

[23:07:00]

EvilGuru:

Talking about MythWeb, does anyone know what the difference between "Recorded" and "Duplicate" is?

[23:07:26]

Dagmar:

afaik duplicate means you've already got the show recorded and what you're looking at is a rerun

[23:08:06]

sphery:

Well, we (including xris) have known about this for years. If you look back in the archives, you could find a couple of users per year posting about "All my recordings are gone" and--after figuring out it's not a filter on the view--they find that they've been bot'ed.

[23:09:17]

sphery:

But, xris (and some people, like me) feel that the downside of changing to using POST is worse than the potential problem (which /only/ happens in an improperly-secured system--or when using one of those download everything things)

[23:09:55]

EvilGuru:

Dagmar: Thanks

[23:10:05]

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[23:11:06]

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[23:14:25]

sphery:

heh... scary moment. Just went to the Recorded Programs page on my Myth box and saw only 7 recordings. (Was filtering on a single title. :)

[23:15:32]

sphery:

Dagmar: how exactly is the bot "clicking" the Delete button? It's a javascript <a onclick="">

[23:15:48]

Dagmar:

sphery: There's more than just that one place you can delete recordings from

[23:15:59]

Dagmar:

Lemme find another

[23:16:15]

sphery:

it's on details page, checking for how...

[23:16:28]

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[23:16:30]

sphery:

javascript

[23:16:57]

sphery:

wonder if it has to get to settings and change the template to lite for it to be able to delete

[23:17:14]

Dagmar:

We've got "<a href="/mythweb/tv/detail/1057/1213311600?forget_old=yes" just kinda hanging out there... and I know I had a delete link last night... still looking

[23:17:59]

Dagmar:

There's also "<a href="/mythweb/tv/detail/1057/1213401600?never_record=yes"

[23:18:03]

sphery:

I see it in function confirm_delete, but as a location.href...

[23:19:33]

Dagmar:

Dur lemme just look at my access_log

[23:19:41]

sphery:

that's a good idea

[23:20:04]

Dagmar:

66.249.73.65 – - [11/Jun/2008:04:47:43 -0500] "GET /mythweb/tv/recorded?delete=yes&chanid=1057&starttime=1212184260 HTTP/1.1" 302 1 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Googlebot/2.1; +http://www.google.com/bot.html)"

[23:20:22]

Dagmar:

This is what I mean by "beyond my wildest dreams"

[23:20:28]

sphery:

that's the link I'm seeing in function confirm_delete...

[23:20:38]

Dagmar:

I knew *something* bad was going to happen, but just what and to what extent was an unknown

[23:21:10]

Dagmar:

My gf was irritated with me last night because I spent the first 30 mintues in bed still giggling instead of sleeping

[23:22:13]

Dagmar:

Part of this was testing my own myth-httpd package to create a point-and-shoot mythweb install

[23:22:42]

Dagmar:

...cuz I kinda like to know which things when broken cause the greatest level of chaos so I can pay special attention to these in the build script

[23:23:21]

Dagmar:

I still don't know where the hell Google found out about my mythweb install.

[23:23:25]

sphery:

Interesting. The only location "delete=yes" exists in the default template is in function confirm_delete

[23:23:34]

Dagmar:

I can only figure it might be looking at the referrals from imdb or something

[23:23:48]

sphery:

I wonder if it changed to lite or wap or something

[23:24:16]

Dagmar:

It might have been working from those to begin with

[23:24:18]

sphery:

or, perhaps, the not-a-desktop-browser-detection code triggers and gives the googlebot a lite template...

[23:24:24]

Dagmar:

Probably so

[23:24:33]

sphery:

if so, that should definitely be fixed.

[23:24:38]

sphery:

Might just resolve the bot problem.

[23:25:03]

Dagmar:

I know I had to actually set up two separate users for auth because once I'd logged in with my PDA when I used my desktop at home, it got lite as well

[23:25:15]

sphery:

yeah, it's stored per-session

[23:25:24]

Dagmar:

...which is maybe not the best thing

[23:25:27]

sphery:

and sessions are maintained through HTTP auth

[23:25:40]

sphery:

don't know how they work without auth

[23:25:59]

Dagmar:

Well, it might be less fragile if it actually looked at the browser ID string

[23:26:16]

sphery:

Yeah, at least Google is nice enough to send a useful one.

[23:27:06]

Dagmar:

Oof. I gotta get cracking on the DB wipe and reconfig

[23:27:27]

Dagmar:

Maybe this time my PS3 will be able to see the damn box

[23:27:37]

Dagmar:

I took shortcuts the last time

[23:27:37]

sphery:

skin can only be changed through a GET form

[23:27:54]

Dagmar:

Well, once you're in "lite", I could find no way to get back out of it

[23:27:54]

sphery:

er, skin too, but I meant template

[23:28:15]

sphery:

yeah, requires a RESET_TMPL= (something--yes, true, ...)

[23:28:24]

Dagmar:

Charlie Jade comes on in less than an hour and I am still on the fence about whether or not I want to watch it

[23:29:28]

abqjp:

Charlie Jade?

[23:30:20]

Dagmar:

Yeah, some scifi thing about a detective who gets stuck in some parallel universe something or other

[23:30:33]

abqjp:

Sounds interesting.

[23:30:36]

Dagmar:

THe pilot didn't make things very clear other than that it was pretty dystopian

[23:30:44]

justinh:

there are worse things you can do with an hour of your life

[23:30:51]

Dagmar:

Lots of fancy technology props tho

[23:30:59]

abqjp:

New series?

[23:31:01]

Dagmar:

Yep

[23:31:16]

abqjp:

Cool.

[23:31:54]

Dagmar:

I also gotta get off my ass and finish configuring the new service firewall

[23:31:59]

abqjp:

Now if I just had a HD-PVR so I could record in in true HD....

[23:32:05]

Dagmar:

I'm typing on it now so I don't have much of an excuse

[23:32:34]

Dagmar:

Should be interesting to see how mnay times I can cut myself off from the home LAN while I'm at work this time

[23:32:44]

sphery:

wonder if the Googlebot has wap in its HTTP_ACCEPT

[23:32:51]

sphery:

if so, that would give it LITE

[23:32:54]

Dagmar:

I have "big plans" for the built in screen on this NetVista X41

[23:33:03]

sphery:

Dagmar: how interested are you in doing another Google test?

[23:33:16]

Dagmar:

Umm... until I've watched BSG tonight? Zero. ;)

[23:33:34]

Dagmar:

I would rather Google not molest that until I've watched it. Hehe

[23:33:53]

sphery:

Didn't know if you were doing this with a dev box (copy of your real one) or something.

[23:34:02]

abqjp:

Aren't you glad Myth has a "trash can" now, instead of permanently, immediately deleting shows?

[23:34:07]

Dagmar:

Well, I am doing it with my "real" box, but my "real" box is also the devel box

[23:34:44]

Dagmar:

So I am being somewhat particular about not getting attached to anything on it, becuase that which doesn't survive was probably not very important anyway

[23:37:04]

Dagmar:

Hehe. Still got four items in mythtv-setup that are just identical "Allow jobs"

[23:40:20]

sphery:

Dagmar: Do you know of any other bots besides Googlebot (ideally with names from USER-AGENT

[23:40:41]

Dagmar:

Not at the moment, but I am certain I could dig some up in a few minutes

[23:42:10]

sphery:

can't believe wikipedia doesn't have a list of known bot user agents

[23:42:35]

sphery:

heh, user-agents.org ...

[23:43:09]

otwin:

russert

[23:43:15]

sphery:

Wow... Putting all of those in would be quite the list...

[23:43:24]

otwin:

oops sorry

[23:43:39]

Dagmar:

Yep

[23:43:57]

Dagmar:

Easier to look for the known browsers and screen resolution repored

[23:44:05]

Dagmar:

s/repored/reported/;

[23:44:09]

Dagmar:

It's not an "easy" problem

[23:44:23]

Dagmar:

Almost all mobiles report a ludicrously small screen res

[23:46:44]

Dagmar:

...and coughing up pages for search engines that you woudn't for users is generally considered to be unkosher

[23:47:06]

Dagmar:

Experts-exchange.net has been repeatedly nuked from Google for that

[23:47:34]

Dagmar:

....cuz they have so much crap in tehre that *constantly* you'd be searching for something that they would let Google see, but not _people who didn't have a paying membership_

[23:49:55]

J-e-f-f-A:

Dagmar: Know the secret to that page??? Don't need a membership to scroll down to the bottom of each page and see the 'real' answers...

[23:50:32]

sphery:

Dagmar: If you do want to test, http://misc.thirdcontact.com/MythTV/mythweb-d . . . awlers.patch changes it so that a "known" web bot/crawler gets the default template (the one that requires JavaScript).

[23:51:20]

Dagmar:

j-e-f-f-a: THey have long since changed it so that you can no longer just pull the Google cache, which is why you're not seeing them come up in the links much anymore

[23:51:32]

sphery:

so, it's not pages specifically for search engines, but really, the same pages a real user would see (with the Javascript and--I hope--the protectionit gives)

[23:51:50]

Dagmar:

Now all the "answers" just have the text "You must pay us money, yadda yadda"

[23:51:56]

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[23:52:59]

J-e-f-f-A:

Dagmar: I thought I looked at one of their pages just a week ago... Humm....

[23:53:04]

sphery:

Dagmar: but what he's saying is that the answers are on the bottom (when viewed in Firefox) because they designed their site so that the CSS properly hides the answers in IE.

[23:53:28]

sphery:

In Firefox, you get 2 copies--one at the top that's hidden and one at the bottom with the actual answers

[23:53:40]

sphery:

(that was my understanding of how EE was broken)

[23:54:09]

sphery:

meaning they should have had one of their "experts" design their site.

[23:55:29]

J-e-f-f-A:

sphery: Humm... thought it worked in IE too... (booting my microsloth box to check...)

[23:55:44]

sphery:

might be. I haven't used IE in a long time.

[23:56:01]

sphery:

If so, I have no idea how they could have broken it so badly that it doesn't work at all.

[23:56:42]

sphery:

I guess their web devs are too lazy to scroll. Or are being paid so much the site owners didn't want them to waste dev time scrolling.

[23:57:10]

wagner:

i hadnt though of that one

[23:57:35]

wagner:

there have been any number of times ive been looking for an answer to something, and the only source is on experts-exchange, that i cant access anyway

[23:57:38]

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[23:57:49]

wagner:

they allow the googlebot UID?

[23:58:22]

J-e-f-f-A:

wagner: Just scroll down to the bottom of the page, after 85% garbage, there's the solution at the bottom...

[23:58:39]

sphery:

that's the way I've always used it.

[23:58:55]

wagner:

i guess ive just never bothered scrolling down after i saw the 'pay for' garbage

[23:59:19]

sphery:

Though, really, I only use that site to find stuff about Windows. Funny enough, compared to me, everyone posting to that site can be considered a Windows expert.

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